Training Without Conflict™ 팟캐스트 보너스 에피소드: Ivan Balabanov와 Larry Krohn의 전기 목줄 토론

when the internet started showing up and people started making videos i saw a lot of the e-collar stuff and it looked a lot different from what i remember as a kid so i became a little interested and i started working with some e-collar trainers and i won't use any names or anything in this and it was a very different approach than it used to be but after going along with that type of system a very pressure based system i still didn't like it and i knew there was a much better way okay prior to that i was training with a leash and a flat collar i didn't use food i didn't use e-collars when i started using e-collars in that manner there was still no food involved but it was very pressure based the dogs were on the e-collars forever and you were stimming the dog every time you gave a command and to me that just wasn't dog training i didn't like it so i broke away from that kind of training i didn't invent anything i didn't create anything i didn't claim to i didn't put my name on something and say this is the larry krohn method but as we got further along the whole social media thing there's trainers out there that are much more popular than me have bigger followings than me and i just saw them doing so much harm with the tool destroying dog after dog i mean and i would get a lot of these dogs as a lot of people would and so 13 14 years ago is when i made my first video describing how i use the e-collar again i didn't create it i didn't invent nothing but i just wanted people to have options to have a different way to get away from the pressure and the punishment of what the e-collar was known to do and over the last 13 14 years it just grew into something much bigger than i than i ever ever expected so when i put that book out for four years actually i think it was four years ago to the day i mean literally this week is the four year anniversary my whole goal ivan stuff i put in that book is very basic very simple and all it was was stuff that i was already giving my clients and people were asking me to package it so when i released that book my whole goal was that if a few people read it hopefully they'll stop destroying their dogs that was it that was it four years later it still doing very well all over the world and you know the messages i receive on a daily basis i've i've been messaged tens of thousands of times on how this has helped people this was never a thing for me to have financial gains or to you know become some popular youtube guy because of e-collar training i wanted people to stop turning to the people out there that are just hammering dogs and we're still seeing it and so when you made the post last week

i had no intentions on replying i stay i didn't want to stay out of it i get myself in enough hot water okay and so i started following the thread and i kept saying to myself please don't let my name pop up please don't let my name pop up i didn't want it and then my name popped up and it started getting ugly so i said okay i'll talk to you about it because i i know you guys don't like the way i train i know you don't like the way i use the e-collar i see the references i know a lot of them are geared towards me there's nothing i could do about that but i could tell you this of course i respect you a ton as a trainer i'm not you i don't claim to be you nothing like that and i'm my biggest critic but if there's one thing that i have been able to accomplish is i definitely have been able to turn the minds of a lot of people who saw this tool with something really awful and i think i have had a little success in that area and if you have a better way i'm always open always open to make things better because in the end i don't care about popularity i don't care about money i don't care about my business okay i just want to provide whatever is best for the dogs it's that simple yeah yeah so like i i have no even the slightest doubt in my mind that your heart and your intentions are in the right direction there is no like absolutely zeroed out there um the the the conversation that we're gonna have hopefully you know it's not again like even even on the podcast it wasn't necessarily to to point to one person but of course um you know i mean having having the book i think it was not a surprise that your name came up i don't think sure you know there was a surprise there is and you can i don't know i mean you probably know your statistics but i'm sure the box has sold in in more than 20 50 who knows how many thousands copies right i mean it's a it's a quite a popular book um and as you said many people know the book um so we i guess we're aware what i'm thinking is because this is this is like the obviously i am i am very loud as far as when i don't like something or when i don't understand something um and in this situation when we talk like i did again on the other hand i don't absolutely agree with you there is people that should be not training dogs not not training those with electric cars they're just people should not be training dogs but they are you know they they have successful businesses and good marketing and yeah unfortunately dogs and clients pet owners suffer a great deal from it so on that spectrum i am again agreeing with you but i i really must be probably one of the few people that don't understand the magic

of low steam and the working level and so since you and i kind of i mean i have your book here and i've made a bunch of notes that i'm gonna go over certain things but to to start somewhere um what uh like like we we i'm familiar of course with many versions of that approach but for us to be able to have the conversation i need to understand your take on it so i'm gonna ask some questions so we can have some baseline to start with so uh you you prefer to use low stem on day color is that to compensate for the harsh training that you've seen around like or is it because it's actually really working so much better like what how how did the lost team came about uh years ago when i started with the e-collar people i'm referring to right it was very pressure based and what i noticed was i mean it was real common even though i was never a heavy-handed trainer even with the e-collar when it was all pressure-based but even using low-level stimulation but right from the start with nothing positive involved with the dog and pressure from the e-collar every time you gave a command dogs would look like crap and sometimes for several days even strong dogs they showed a confusion and a sadness and a suppression that i just hated and that was common and even though some of the people would say give it three or four days and they'll start changing it and often they the dogs would start coming around but they had to figure things out but in reality the dog was never given an opportunity to win for the rest of their life the e-collar was there and you were stimming whenever you told the dog to do anything okay and and to me that that just wasn't an option because you rarely see my dogs with e-collars on i don't use e-collars a lot but in the beginning when i saw a few other people using low-level level stem and once i started using more food and training more positive reinforcement what i saw right away was that suppression or that confusion from the dogs in the beginning it wasn't there anymore instantly the dogs were looking okay all right because of the low level yes so of course it's there the dogs there's still a confusion there the dog doesn't know what that very foreign sensation is right if if we give the dog a leash pop we push against the dog we use our but these are all things that the dog unders it makes sense but when a dog feels that very strange stimulation they don't know what that means it's completely foreign to them but what i saw from others again i didn't invent this when you help them with the leash and you paired it with positive reinforcement and you used it with the obedience that the dog knew very well

the learning of understanding what the low-level stim was very very powerful now for me i like to spend a couple of weeks teaching what the what the e-collar stem means to the dog so the dog understands it inside and out and maybe you don't understand this either from my side ivan once we get to that point my whole goal with every single client that i work with is that in the end the dog responds to the verbal command with no tools on that's always the goal and so we get to a point after a few weeks of training and teaching where we're no longer stimming the dog before a command the e-collar is there if the dog is off leash in public when needed just in case needed can people use it for obedience to make things better and faster sure but it's not something that i do much of i just i just don't you know my whole purpose is that the average dog owner can get their dog and go to the park or go on a hike and provide a little bit of freedom without the dog being attached to a leash okay so giving that stem that low-level stim before command is only that first week or two or three when we're teaching i no longer do that once the dog is trained and understands it does that make sense um i mean i i think i am following i think i'm following um i guess the question the first question that i have will be what is the what is the end goal what is the objective of all that training where is that going perfect good good good question so the end goal is that when you have to turn to higher aversives with the e-collar when your dog's off leash it's chasing a deer it's running to the road anything and that dog is hit with a high level stimulation which a lot of people think i'm against or don't do that's not true i just like the dog to be trained fairly and prepared for that moment because what happens when that dog does feel high stimulation when needed there's never any negative blowback there's no confusion okay it's just an understanding that we prepared the dog for we prepared the dog how to take that correction because and i'm sure you've seen this plenty of times when we're working with these dogs that weren't trained this way where it's just compulsion and punishment there's a lot of suspicious behaviors created from the dog you don't know what to expect so when someone throws an e-collar on a dog for the first time and they take it off leash which people still do and the dog doesn't come back and they nail it on a high level the dog doesn't know what that is he doesn't know how to respond properly some people may get lucky and the maid dog may turn around and not leave your side you know but i have a dog here now

that went through some you know i don't know what happened right but when the dog saw an e-collar it ran back in my house and hid it in its pen you know and and so the end goal my objective is that when the aversive is need to be used because in the end the e-collar is just there if needed the dog knows how to respond properly without having any negative blowback that's it i'm very simple and basic so and what is the okay so without having a blowback what would that be if if it was to have one you don't know how the dog's gonna respond you could freak it out the dog could become okay i'll give you an example so so we don't we don't so the one at least one of the end goals then for you is any correct me if it's not right but one of your end goal is that whenever time comes and you're saying most likely time will come that you will need strong higher aversive stronger intensity on the collar so the dog doesn't become uh fearful from the color that's one one yes that's definitely one thing sure okay what other you said that there is no confusion the dog understands what just happened so like when you say no confusion that would be no confusion towards oh i know what that feels like or oh i know like like what what confusion exactly are you referring to all right give you an example we're working with the big strong malinois that went through some bad econ training right recently in front of a lot of people at a seminar this dog was having a problem with the out wouldn't release anything now when the owner or anybody tries to get the dog out as soon as the dog hears the word out it's going to turn and nail the owner one of the very popular trainers out there to teach the dog how to out had the owner give a bite or whatever they did told the dog to out when it didn't blasted it on the highest level on the e-collar no training okay what does the dog do doesn't know what to do turns and nails the owner now every time the dog hears out it's waiting for that big ass kicking there was no education there right 100 unfair to the dog 100 when we worked with that dog that dog never once went after me or another handler when we're working on the out and we spent very limited time a seminar is not the best place to reintroduce the dog to the e-collar but the second we reintroduced these dogs to the low-level stem paired with something the dog loves and we we do it at police seminars we do police canines they change very very quickly we provide a different picture a more fair picture to the dog it's just clear to the dog it's opposite of what we were doing 20 years ago 30 years ago okay okay so so from from that example like the first one we said is

that when when we hit higher intensity the dog doesn't freak out and from the example that you just gave me what would be the second benefit of the low the working level the low stem the example the the benefit of the low stem say in the malinois example the only benefit of the low stem was we showed the dog a different picture he understood it he understood how to remove the stimulation and better his situation how to receive something he wanted okay so before instead of you know saying out and then blasting the dog and the dog biting harder and nailing someone now we spend half the day you know a few minutes here a few minutes there introducing the low level stems when the dog responds to the command marking it rewarding now the dog sees a different picture right right so i i mean i i know we we will have examples but i also have to try to extract whatever we need to extract from every example and kind of put them to where they make sense so um from from that example with the out with the malinois basically again the first one we said the dog is can handle low intensity without being afraid that's the one objective second objective is when we extract that objective without going through the example of how the dog worked and how it solved it but what we actually taught him what we what were we supposed to accomplish so what is the the uh benefit of the low steam in that example without giving the example just i'm just looking for the phrase the the benefit is the dog learns how to remove the stimulation without confusion 100 understands how to remove the stimulation okay now a couple of weeks into it when we do start adding in corrections for non-compliance again there's clarity there on the dog's end where he completely understands it yeah yeah we're definitely gonna go in in a detail i'm just trying to really get the like again for somebody like me i i'm probably a little too particular with wording but um i find it very beneficial when we discuss anything and and when we start doing something it's always good to know why we're doing it what are the benefits and so one of the benefit of low stem food right now is the not to freak out as much another way one is understanding how to shut it off and and and not submit not crumble the dog right what else would you think are the the benefits of of that approach i mean not that they have to be any i mean that's just do by itself are a lot but i don't want to make you think that i'm you know if there is there is that's that's the really the the main gist of things i want to provide a very clear understanding to the dog on on what that stimulation means how to remove it how to turn it off okay

perfect so we accomplished this in few different ways and and from from the book and from the youtube channel and just you know from what i know like like for example the book starts with conditioning phase use day caller with every command reward every time train with as little destruction as possible keep session 15 minutes or so you know short session um so let's go over that conditions in face and and we assume we have so we just for the sake of time let's say if we if we need to do some preliminary work with the leash we don't need to be in great detail but but whatever whatever we need to do sure okay so when a dog comes to me i'm never putting an e-collar on and starting to train the dog okay that just doesn't happen the dog's going to be trained on a leash and a flat collar that's it okay i'm going to build some kind of trust with that dog i'm going to take a good amount of time to where the the dog's fine with me he trusts me we have a little bit of a relationship there and i work the basics on on a leash whether it's a six-foot leash a 10-foot leash a 15-foot leash that's it when i finally put that e-collar on that dog he's going to have a good understanding of the basics so when we start the e-collar work say with a recall or go away onto a place he understands those commands very well that's it and it's all done on leash so when the dog doesn't respond in the beginning if a dog has a hard time the leash is there to help the dog i'm not going up in higher levels i'm not correcting the dog with the e-collar i'm not putting more pressure on the dog you know that's not going to happen until later on into the process so we have a you have a dog and you teach them sit down hill place like what what are we teaching sure the the basics come to me go away from me on a place and and i'm not i'm not utilizing that e-collar with even a down and a sit usually in the beginning and what does determine when you will start when the dog is responding well to the verbal commands on leash what does that mean well to you when you say respond well every time for the most part every time so you give a command place and the dog goes right away sure and i don't need perfection from 50 feet away okay just to understand the basics of the command because once the e-collar is implemented there i'm not turning on an e-collar from 50 feet away and wait until the dog gets there okay not doing that okay that's gonna that's gonna take us too far up out in the conversation uh um so you have trained the dog to have some basic understanding of the commands and if we say basic understanding because i i keep saying like i almost every time when we have a podcast i do

that like if right now you and i have to draw a a dog we bought will but if we once pick up the sheet and show it to each other chances are they're going to look different and that will be with 50 people as well like we all have a picture of something but when we actually put it in work we have a different it comes out different so so when we're talking about basic understanding of commands that's why i'm not like really challenging that i'm just trying to get to understanding what would that mean so we agree on it so the question when we talk about basic commands would be after when when they meet your satisfaction does that mean that the dog now doesn't need any help any prompts from you when you give the commands sure right i call the dog he turns and comes to me i ask the dog to go to a place he turns and he goes to the place that's it the dog's responding without me helping him with the leash without me warring him the other one was you said um like out of 10 times he does it you said every time but then you kind of said so what like out of 10 times what would be the criteria for you to understand that the dog you it's enough for you to say i'm happy with this we move on well i prefer 10 out of 10 times but i'm doing this in very stagnant areas without distractions so it's easy to achieve that you understand what i'm saying what else do we need as a prerequisites before we start electrical well that's kind of where we are i mean as far as meeting the foundation in the basic commands every dog is different i don't have a a set timeline i kind of let the dog dictate that um i've had a dog here now for almost a month there's no e-collar training because this dog has has so many problems it just wouldn't be beneficial at this time so from this point you say that you will go let's say the basics are there and there are no distractions what is the what what comes to mind that you say now now it's time to introduce the color right from the start you mean in the beginning no no like you you're doing your basic obedience and you have not used the electric color whatsoever and all of a sudden now preferably 10 out of 10 times in a quiet environment the dog understands the commands without help and now we start teaching him the conditioning phase as you call it so describe the conditioning phase when the dog is showing me that it's doing well where we're at and i'm basically doing the same things over and over the dog's not shut down right right we said that yeah we i mean it meets the basic obedience criteria that i just said when when the e-collar stuff starts just like you explained in the beginning i'm starting with the recall

almost always unless there's a reason why i can't right the low i'm going to find the dog's lowest level that the dog feels something i'm going to turn it on i'm going to ask the dog to come to me when it comes i'm turning the e-collar off i'm marking that and i'm rewarding that and i'm doing a lot of repetitions with that okay okay so just so we i mean for some people and then these are important uh details you you have two approaches and you kind of use sometimes this or this and one of them is the dog receives a stim before you say anything to the dog and then you say and then what happens then the dog's reaction compliance to the command removes the stimulation and produces the reward marker which produces the reward and in the other option because you say that there are two on the other option you first give the command and then apply the laws team and then the reward sure yeah and i don't do that as much anymore um if the dogs i usually wait more for the intermittent phase to start doing that so in the beginning mostly it's before the command so so the dog is whatever 10 feet 20 feet away from your right and and you use a low stem what what are you hoping how do you want the dog to perceive that lost him in the beginning he's gonna perceive it as he doesn't know what the hell that is doesn't know right total confusion that's why the leash stays on we're there to help the dog so if the dog does not turn on its own to recall if the stimulation creates enough confusion to stop the dog we give very light leash pressure to help the dog guide us in the right direction okay okay the dog takes one step my way i'm not waiting for the dog to get to me to remove the stimulation the second the dog turns to come my way that's where the stimulation turns off and i'm marking that right there that's why where a lot of people fail that reward marker means nothing to the dog but what i explained to them is that reward marker will benefit the dog when that e-collar goes away and that should build speed in the command so when you use that stimulation before the command what does the dog feel uh we say that it's confusion we say that he doesn't know what it is but is it neutral is it is it unpleasant or is it pleasant the people that say the dog loves the stimulation they don't understand it no dog loves e-collar stimulation i don't care how low it is okay so my goal for the dog is to keep it as neutral as possible okay that's the goal keep it as neutral as possible in the beginning so if you use it as as with the with the intention that the dog like if i if it's neutral to me basically would be something that it doesn't matter to me correct sure so

there is no there is no it's not aversive it's not pleasant but it's neutral so like uh if you give me an example on on what would i feel like forget we we can never ask i wish we can ask dogs so many questions but unfortunately we cannot but but let's say you put it on yourself or you put it on me and you say hey this is the neutral how how the neutral feels like where you could barely feel it on your skin you feel it it's there it's there's no discomfort there's no pleasure you just feel it how certain can you be that that's where the dog is at because we are looking we're looking we're looking for some uh body language signs right or no um some kind of indication it could be extremely subtle right there could be no indication whatsoever that comes with experience a lot of people look for you know something very obvious where the dog turns around and looks at him but but but often at that time it's a little higher than needs to be in the beginning you know these dogs feel it on very very low levels lower than most people assume so we are applying low stem or whatever level of steam depending on the dog but the idea is to stay neutral so the dog says i'm feeling something but it doesn't matter either way sure yeah sure and then we call the dog as the dog starts to head our way we turn it off it comes it gets rewarded how many times we do that what are we looking for like typically like in your book for example you say we do that for a couple of weeks or something like that for me myself i do that a couple of days with the dog two days maybe three days depending on the dog so when you say depending on a dog what does that mean to you depending how the dog's responding how it's learning what kind of dog it is right so what kind of respond like you know like for example if i teach a dog to come if i do it i know if uh where where the dog is and i know when it's time to go to the next stage if there is next stage in the process i want to see certain criteria met so just depends on the dog is that one phrase that everybody says and it's one of the most vague escape answers so you have a dog you're you're going through the that first conditioning phase neutral before the word then the word then release and you're doing this for a few days what determines when it's time to go to the next stage which you call the intermittent fase when the dog is at the end of a long leash and he's not paying attention to me and i could just tap the button tap tap and he turns and comes to me without a command that's when i know i can move on that's when the dog's starting to understand what's expected so i'm just running this one in my mind here

so when you you you're looking for the response that the dog is out you top top still on that neutral level and before you say the command the dog is already coming to you 100 yes that's what i want okay and what does that accomplish what that accomplishes every client dog that goes home i went want them to be able to have that that nonverbal recall with their dog because you have to understand something ivan we're working with very average pet dog owners so you so the accomplish on the the objective at least here at that moment of the conversation yes that you can tap him and you don't need to call him and he comes yes okay all right and then what do we do because like like i'm i'm going by the book i'm going by the videos that i've seen and and trust me i have seen i i have seen all of your videos probably i mean that may sound strippy but i have conditioning phase use the color with every command reward every time train with little distractions as possible so once we we say that we start with the recall and then which one would be the next one that you would go with as far as commands come to me go away from me to a to a place command so recall and a place okay and that is already again done the dog he has a foundation without the collar now we're doing it with the collar now it's done at the same we with the same obviously procedure and order we are giving the neutral stem then we say place reward yes right what is the end goal here in that command i don't want the dog to later on in the training like a lot of people go through when they feel the e-collar stimulation they're scared to leave their owner's side they think when they feel the stimulation that means stay next to me and don't move so the end goal is what to you that the dog pays attention to the verbal command and understands that the e-collar stimulation just doesn't mean stick at my side and be scared to move okay learns to go away from me as well as it learns to come to me okay so we have a i i have a something that's contradicting here for me that we need to let me say this again the end goal is i want the dog to understand how to remove the stimulation that's it so that's it's that simple so so at least on the conditioning phase with the recall the idea was to do the low steam neutral and the dog turns and comes to you without the command on going away from you doing place the steam comes first it's neutral the command comes next the dog gets rewarded what are you how how do you move forward from there so we said on the recall the idea is that you stem and you know when the dog is ready for the intermittent stage because you

at this point you don't give the command and he goes to you yeah yeah so what are you looking clearly what are you looking when you teach the dog to go away and you when what what what is the deciding factor to move to the intermittent stage i'm not using the place command as a deciding factor i'm using the the dog's ability to learn that nonverbal recall to know when to move forward if the dog does that without the command and that's what i want when there's no command i want the dog coming to me that's what i teach every client dog or every dog owner okay so i'm not worried if he does that then i know he understands how to turn it off going to a place or a sit or a down that's all i care about at that stage okay but yet that does not answer my question but that's that's the best i can answer it i don't know how it's out how to answer that all right that's going to be bad if you don't know how to answer it because i like right now i don't know what criteria you're trying to meet to say now i can go to the intermittent stage like you very nicely put it step by step for the recall i'm asking if you can do that for the place okay yeah same thing when the e-collar comes on and i say place i want the dog every time to understand that command which he should know before the e-collar is even implemented before we start correct okay but when i give the place command if the dog is reverting to coming to me or there's confusion then i didn't do my job i can't move forward we have to fix that so how how like i'll go to how we fix that but i want to know i still don't know exactly what you look in the dog what you will do and what you look into the dog as a response for it to say we're good at that level we're ready to move to the next i'm just going to say one one more time on the recall you've done work without the e-collar then you've added the e-collar before the command then the command then the reward then through some repetition finally you can use the color as a neutral level and you don't need the command and the dot comes to you so this is very clear logical order i i want to hear you explaining that same with the place the recall is the only command that i'm doing that with where i just tap tap no command the dog comes to me as far as as far as with the place command the way i know he's there and i don't care so much about the place command itself i know he knows that before we start the e-collar work i want to know that when the e-collar comes on and i send him to a place he responds properly every time that's all i'm looking for now mind you i'm not doing this from far away i'm doing this from close so i'm i'm not

holding the e-collar and the dog is 50 feet away from the place command you understand what i'm saying sure sure absolutely i i got that and that's it i'm just looking for the correct response that's that's what i'm trying to get you to give me that step by step correct i do this the dog does this i do this the dog does this and eventually i do this or i don't need to do this and the dog does that just like how we explain the recall can you explain the place procedure i thought i just did e-collar comes on i asked the dog to place there's no hesitation he goes to it he goes to it i remove the stimulation i mark and reward that's it that's the there is no more like like you you will remain with the command in that situation yes yes always then you have our set what do we do with the set no different than the place command it's this it's it's the same thing i'm using mostly the recall to gauge how much the dog is understanding the simul the stimulation when it's associated with a command that's that's the the main basis that's the command that i'm looking for that i need most associated with the recall okay all right so so you gotta help me here too for me to clear up some things for myself we said that in the beginning you don't use the color we have done a lot of preliminary work well a lot whatever enough preliminary work the dog has the basic understanding of basic commands and then we decide to put the color on then we start that conditioning phase we teach i mean we don't teach we we use it for the recall we use it for the place we use it for the sit we use it for the down and every time we are using it with all those commands we start prior to the command the dog does the command but the dog was gonna do the command anyway correct me if i'm wrong even if we did the news because of the work that you've done before sure and and also because the level that you're using is neutral meaning it does not make the dog happy or frustrated discomfort or pleasure there is no it's just sure okay so your question is why would i use the e-coli no no no no no no we're not there i mean ultimately this that the question is where do we what uh what determines like let's say with the with the recall there is a very good indication that it's like okay if i tap him and i don't say the command and he knows how to come to me that means we're ready for the next stage you're tapping and still giving the command and the dog goes to place what are you looking in that sequence in the response of the dog that tells you the dog is now fluent in this and we're gonna do something more here's here's the thing as far as being fluent in it right

i mean fluent is a loosely word it's what what makes you think to go to the next stage i understand what you're saying so i'm using the place command in there but um more gauging it off of the recall to go to the next stage okay i know if the dog understands the stimulation with the recall if he's responding properly with that if he responds without the command for the recall and he's responding to the other basics with the command then i'm comfortable moving to the next stage that's just how i do it i'm comfortable i know we're ready to move forward and i normally don't have a problem with it okay so i i don't want to answer the question for you but basically i i still don't know when you will be okay this i've done what is it is it certain number of commands certain days amount of days um like like when when are you okay i've done this that's that's good i've checked in the box i've done place and i've introduced the the dog has the neutral has the place command goes to it gets the reward we've done that when will you be okay i'm good with this now what what are you looking for at that point the most important thing to me is that the dog responds to the recall every time okay but but larry that's that that's what i'm glad that doesn't answer the question i i have for right now at least i have no problem with how we we actually were very methodical of explaining step by step the order of what we are looking and when we are progressing with the recall my problem is not with the recall i'm asking when we do this work with the place and the caller how long are you gonna do it for and why what decides that i'm doing the the the recall usually by itself in the beginning sometimes with the place command depends how quick the dog is to learn but i'm not waiting there's nothing in the place command that's magical that's telling me when it's time to move on it's just the overall picture of the dog how it's responding to the e-collar that's all i care about if he's responding properly and i'm not having to use the leash all the time to help him then i'm comfortable moving forward and properly meaning he the two things that we said he's not afraid um i mean even if he's well he's not afraid because it's neutral right so there is nothing to be afraid of and he functions through the commands sure yes okay so from from so far what i'm getting is it's a very vague there it's not even vague there is nothing that determines you're not like i don't think you're looking for anything specific you're just saying okay now we're gonna do place and i'm gonna use the steam neutral before the command to go to place just because or am i missing something

i don't i'm not sure what what you're missing i'm trying to think if how i could explain it differently maybe i give you an analogy i give you let's say i teach a dog to sit and i'm gonna use a hot dog and i'll say sit and i'm gonna lure and i'm gonna do this x number of times eventually i'm gonna say sit i'm about to lure and he sits that will be my first indication that some learning is taking place because the dog starts to anticipate and it's not as reliant on my help anymore eventually the command becomes much more well understood and the dogs become more fluent he does not need help now i know that that command to me is sufficient at that stage now if i decide to do it in some generalization discrimination stage to where it's like no if i say sit on the chair and you sit on the chair it's not that you sit only in front of me but also discrimination if i say pit you don't sit on it or if my friend says sit you don't sit on it you said sit when only i do it then you do and that there is a stages but i will not go to that stage unless i have seen understanding in the very first one so this is the kind of systematic movement that i'm looking for that i'm trying to get from you we are introducing not for the first time obviously the e-collar got introduced on the recall but now we are using the color for place in the same fashion but there is no end goal we are just kind of okay we're gonna do this five times and and that's sufficient that's kind of what i'm concluding from what we've said so far i think if you're looking at it as using the e-collar to teach or judge the place command i can understand where you're coming from the way i'm trying to to look at it ivan the way i do it is i'm taking a command that the dog knows to help him understand what the stimulation is right i get it but you still don't answer me when do you know that the dog has understood that when he's responding properly every time that's all i'm looking for that's it that's all i want but he's responding properly before you ever put the caller on him right yes yes okay so i want those repetitions with the stimulation preparing the dog for later on when he is off leash i know he understands it i'm doing everything now to prepare the dog for later that's it i understand that so it still does not answer a simple question what i think it's simple question i get it it prepares the dog later but when do you conclude that now the dog is prepared for leather what is the what is that you're gonna see in the dog that will be different from another stage or or is there such a thing or is it just a number of tries or how how does that work i'm just i i just want a good

amount of repetitions i want the dog to be consistent i want the dog to be upbeat and responding appropriately that's it that's all i want okay so how how would it be different than without having the color and having the color and he's doing places it wouldn't be and he's doing it reliably okay he wouldn't be so what makes you say that's good enough for me now i'm gonna work on the seat or i'm gonna work on or i'm gonna make it more complicated i mean do you use stages do you i mean you obviously are waiting for some something that the dog shows you okay i got this what what else do you want to teach me right so from that end when he's doing that every time that's when we'll start adding some distractions making it a little more difficult for the dog okay but that's again you're telling me what you're gonna do but you're not telling me what is the deciding factor for you to start doing that i don't i don't know i can't answer i don't know what else to say about that ivan i've just told you what i go off of and and that's the dog's response but that's the thing you haven't told me because you're not telling me what is the dog's response it's not different than like that response is not different than the response before you did anything with the color sure okay i just want the repetitions with the collar that's all i want there we go there we go and i want to and i want to see that it's not affecting anything in a negative way the dog the response to commands perfect i'll go with that i'll take that any day that's that's that's what i need so we will do that with the seat as well you will see i i'm not uh please understand i'm not trying to be like pain in the ass like you you will see this is super important because you know like like what we are doing what the intentions what we are looking for all this matters in order for us to evolve and move on with the training with that dog right so we've done the recall we got that understanding then we're going by some repetitions just so the dog it's like okay we're gonna do this for five times or maybe three days or whatever there is no there is no magic number in that no it's just an exposure of the for the dog it's like i'm gonna steam neutrally you go to place i'm gonna steam naturally you do a sit i'm gonna steam neutrally you down i'm gonna steam sometimes i'm not gonna ever call you you're gonna know that you're gonna come correct and now now we are going to the next stage the inter-intermittent stage right okay what what is the objective of the intermittent stage that the dog starts respond understands it's got to respond whether the e-collar is there or not

this is where sometimes we're utilizing the e-collar sometimes we're not sometimes we're rewarding sometimes we're not this is where we start taking the dog adding real distractions to new places new things okay so sometimes are using something we are not sometimes um but okay let me let me think here so the my question is in that intermittent stage what is the role of the electric collar because from what i know so far it's still a neutral means nothing one way or another this this is where we could start adding some adversives this is where i start adding some verses this is where i start adding some corrections if the dog doesn't comply okay so you say place and the dog doesn't go to place let's say it confuses it with a done or whatever it it doesn't go to place what do we do well you know that's a not an exact question because i'm i'm a little slow on adding any kind of punishment to a dog when they're learning okay so i'm real slow to start punishing the dog with an e-collar if there's confusion there do you understand what i'm saying so in other words if i asked the dog for a place and now we're making it a little more difficult so then just i i probably that that was wrong of me so you describe yourself the intermittent stage with the command place okay so we're working on just the place command and the intermittent stage right i may do the same thing we did in the conditioning phase one repetition that was with the e-collar mark and reward we give food okay the next time i may do the same thing except now we're not marking and rewarding now the dog's holding the position until we release the dog free dog break okay whatever you use the dog's learning how to remain in position it's not going to get we're not going to walk around with food the rest of our lives giving the dog treats okay but here we also start using the command without the e-collar i ask the dog to place the dog goes to place we're going to reward there's going to be times we don't reward but here now if we say place and we know the dog knows it well and we don't get the response we want from the dog again i'm very slow to do this most are a little quicker to start correcting the dog with the e-collar i'm not but in reality we're going to get to a point where now we can correct the non-compliance with the dog okay and that's going to be a little higher than what the dog learned on when there's no distraction there's no discomfort now we can start adding some of earth so you're you're in an environment you're in the same environment right you're still there is not heavy distractions or anything like that just in the beginning when we start off yes

and does the dog know place just to go in and come out or is it to stay there also both i want them to know know both so but you've thought that you have taught in your basic foundation also the stay there or just you have told the story absolutely so does that mean that you used like what did you do when the dog did not want to stay there how how did that get resolved i mean we know dogs will not want to stay there for no reason there sure if you're asking me if i'm using the e-collar there no i'm not i'm not punishing that i'm making sure i teach the dog yeah i understand i understand that you did not you start without a collar so what i'm asking is you tell him place he goes in a place and he walks out i tell him now i bring him back i bring him back and and you know i'm gonna keep asking that question because we know that there is that dog that just bringing him back it's not going to be enough uh you know it it depends ivan you know um i'm not going to start correcting that with an e-collar right away but that's just me no no i know i know i'm not saying i'm not trying to trick you to say i'm going to use the e-collar but you what do you do i mean we we know this is a something that will happen and you've dealt with so how have you dealt with sure it happens all the time and you if you if you've seen all the videos you've seen it i'll keep working on it until the dog understands it and i'll give if i have to give a leash correction when the dog gets off then that's what i'll do so you will do leash correction sure okay there you go that's that's what we need and and when we say leash correction what does that mean to you just a quick pop boom no pop back up there so some some mine mild discomfort and telling him to go back there yeah okay there we go so now we're going to the same situation we have reached that same situation with the color correct and is that in the intermittent stage or is that later that you're gonna yeah yeah you could start you could start adding aversives in that intermittent stage sure okay so if he doesn't want to go or gets out or whatever being a dog you what is the order you you tap him first and you say or does it matter doesn't matter it doesn't matter but one way or another if he's confused you're telling them go to go back there and you're using obviously a higher level right yeah yeah a little bit higher a little bit higher right so when you say that you use neutral level you were very specific how skillful you are to create that level that the dog is like that's not pleasant but that's definitely also not unpleasant i'm right in the middle so what are we looking in the dark now that we're gonna actually use it

as an aversion in the dog's response and what is the deciding factor if i wanted to be very effective on the dog without creating any issues with the dog at the same time i want the dog to know why he was just corrected but he's also not scared to make a mistake right so let's say what kind of color do you typically just so we e-collar technologies and and chameleon martin system collar all right so let's say from what one to what level uh the midi educator goes from one to a hundred okay so one to 100 beautiful so so let's say we are on that specific dog for just for the sake of the example that his neutral level is seven and now he decides to do something else changes his mind for the place we use an aversion so where would you go you have to read that dog know the dog well that could be uh 15 it could be a 20. but what what right right right absolutely agree with you so what are we looking in the dog yeah i'm looking to see if the dog has a really poor reaction that i'm too high what is a poor reaction vocalizes jumps okay i don't want none of that i want the dog to know what just happened and to respond to it and be like ah i didn't like that too much but i don't want to put it over the top but at the same time if there's no reaction then i know i'm too low okay so how how do you find that level that's a feel you gotta have with that particular dog by time you get to that point you should know how the dog responds to things i do i know i do with every dog i work with wow that that's that would confuse me to say that because uh so far you've been only using the color on a neutral level so you don't really know how the dog will respond or and on what level not to that first time no exactly okay so you're you're going off what you've done over and over with with many dogs so you said the dog works on a seven which is very average for that collar with most dogs right very very average i mean i just put a number but it is that that is like a very accurate average to where the average dog works on that particular collar in that conditioning phase and so when we start adding some aversive uh with that particular collar then anywhere from a 15 to a 20 is very average very common for most dogs and very rarely are you going higher than that or do you have to go higher than that okay so i i find that for me problematic that you're spending that much time to find the neutral level and to use it on all these commands to condition the dog to the cover but then when the time comes to actually use it as an aversion you you're pretty much saying that i just know now from experience what to do so how did you not know from experience

to find the neutral level why were you so methodical on the neutral level but you're really very much rushing if we are comparing the two introductions i'm not rushing anything the thing is with the neutral level in the conditioning phase it's pretty similar for most dogs it's very common very average in the single digits number on that collar and so when you've done it enough you know where most dogs are are feeling and it's and it's it doesn't vary that much it really doesn't okay it just doesn't and there's not a lot of dogs that if you go to a 15 on the collar or 20 on a collar where they've been feeling it over and over for the the past week or two where it's going to create such a negative issue it just it just doesn't happen that way the problem is where you go from those neutral levels to popping it to a 70 or an 80 which we still see quite often that's where you run into problems i'm very conservative with the tool is it correct the statement that i'm gonna make you're teaching the dog that the color is neither pleasant or this pleasant for quite some time in that conditioning stage that's your objective you're going way out of your way you're doing it before commands you're doing it with all commands you're doing it all over the place with the intention that means neither or it stays right in the middle neutral how does that prepare him to handle now the caller as something aversive because now all of a sudden he's disobeying a command and now he feels something in a discomfort so how that that work prepared him for that event that preliminary work i can't tell you what the dog experiences i just know how they respond and how they behave and i know how they respond and behave when they feel it as a high level aversive for the first time with no preparation okay doing it this way i've never seen a dog respond poorly to a correction from an e-collar even at higher levels when you do take the time to prepare them okay but that's not so again my question is how does that low steam neutral conditioning prepares the dog for that time when he's disobedient and he says i'm gonna get out of place and now all of a sudden all that preparation i mean all that conditioning saying hey you're gonna feel something but it's neither good or bad and now it comes as bad we said that there is a benefit the reason we are doing that conditioning is because we are preparing the dog so he can not fear it so he can respond correctly so all those things right sure sure so if it's a neutral stimuli all of a sudden becomes an aversive how did the neutral prepared you to respond correctly on overseas the dog knows what it is there's no confusion there

how no that no that's the problem that i have with you right now the dog doesn't know what it is what i mean the dog knows what it is but what the dog knows is that it's neutral that's what the dog knows that's what you've spent all this time however long throughout all the commands you've gone out of your way to drill it in his mind that this is neither good or bad how does that prepare him to handle the aversive because obviously now we know that the diversity is a clearly a completely new event i don't know if you could say it's a new event i know it's a completely new feel but at this point i don't believe it's foreign to the dog even though it's at a higher level and the reason i say that is because of the dog's response when i don't have to go to a higher version larry larry hold on hold on we cannot you cannot say that i and this is why if we say that something is neutral to me and all of a sudden it's unpleasant that means i don't want it neutral means i don't give a [ __ ] right right how that prepared me for i don't want it well for one for me the dog knows how to avoid it very quickly no that's not a question the question that i have is how what you did for all that time with the electric caller presenting it as a neutral prepared the dog because ultimately when we started the conversation and in the book and everywhere else we're saying that all that big production is done in order to prepare the dog for that event that just came and my question is in what way did prepare it because he has never up to that point felt the electric as an aversion right right so this is a totally new event sure so how all that foundation all that conditioning prepared them for that event because that was your goal i can't answer that for you scientifically i could just answer it for you the i could just the only thing i could do is answer you for the way the dog does respond and behave and it is what what i want out of the dog okay so without the science i don't want you to have science but you you like in your own words do you think you can explain it i just explained it the best i could you're not you're you're not i i don't know what else to to tell you i'm telling you by what the dog tells us and i've never seen a dog that when it's prepared like this and i'm not the only one doing this okay so so the these are defense mechanisms that we we gotta try to stay away from i it's not that you're the only one i don't say that i'm not saying it's working or it's not working i'm not saying that i need science for it i'm just saying that if you go in a shower and you have used the water on a program you have one of those really fancy showers

that as you walk in it measures your temperature and immediately it starts putting exact same temperature you're on a neutral level one day you walk in the shower and the water's hot how did that neutral prepared you for the hot water or did it well at that point i know damn well what it is i know it's hot water that's not the question asked i ask you i'm asking you how the temperature of the water that's identical to your body temperature and you use that for four months prepared you not to freak out or or whatever it is to to deal with the hot water that came from the shower today it doesn't thank you it's not so hard it's not hard to say it doesn't it really doesn't it does not this is not a scientific question this is a very a very common logical answer okay all right could i add could i ask you a question on that same thing sure why do we see so many dogs that completely get shut down when they're hit with an aversiv from an e-collar right off the bat um because they got their minds blown off probably i mean there's many reasons who knows um but it's not uh but we all see them you see them i see them right we all we always we always see that yes yes and we started our conversation with the the prerequisite that from from what i got from the conversation is that in some ways the way you use the electric collar and the way you go through that conditioning phase and the way you work with low steam is a better approach to use the electric collar than just frying the dog and and letting him blow it it's his anal glands every single time sure i'm giving you that there's no problem but for right now can we agree that the preparation that you just described all that conditioning did not prepare the dog for that event i know i can't agree with that explain i can't but but don't give me an example of well i did it with that dog and that dog responds correctly and many trainers do it this is this is i i i'm not interested in this kind of conversation yeah no no no no problems there i just because i can't help but compare it to the way we used to do things okay but larry that's not the question well i can't answer it any other way i can't answer it any other way those examples of horrible frying dogs with electric collars are bad idea we don't need to we know absolutely from this point on we don't need to bring them on i agree with that and i agree that that's your this approach with the you know with the book and everything is the uh um the answer uh an attempt to do better than that kind of brutal approach i give you that too but i still have to ask that question and you cannot avoid it by saying well they're doing it in a very horrible way

or hold on or many trainers do it and it's it works and i have success this is i also let's say i'll give you that too i wouldn't question your success how that conditioning of teaching the dog hey don't worry that doesn't mean nothing good nothing bad that's neutral how did that prepare him when the electric caller all of a sudden became aversive i just wouldn't be comfortable doing it without no larry that's i'm not asking are you comfortable doing it with or without i'm asking you how the preparation that extensive foundation of conditioning to low stem prepared him i mean it's a simple question yes and and and i'm answering it for you the dog knows how to turn it off i will answer it to you i i will answer it it did not prepare and whatsoever it really did not that's that's the answer and it's okay answer it's not a it's just what it is it's not a it's not like i'm gonna take you somewhere else it's just that's the answer like he will respond to the aversion one way or another and depending on the intensity he will respond in a very different way depending in what's at stake also he will respond in a very different way there is always pros and cons there is always cost and benefit for everything right so nevertheless all that conditioning telling him that that's neutral did not prepare him in fact when you used for the first time now after all that prep as an aversion you surprised him he if you did that to me or if i did that to you you will turn and you'll be ivan what the [ __ ] was that and it would be a very normal response because basically i would be like larry you just lied to me for three months that that doesn't mean nothing that's i don't need to even whatever and all of a sudden why how did you prepare me for that i can't i don't agree with that give give me give me something back if you're going to use it that way right off the bat okay without using anything before without introducing it at lower levels how do you know how the dog's going to respond to it i i don't like the i i don't like how you answer me uh uh apologies for for being direct like this but you you're asking a question you're not answering what i'm asking you you're refusing to say that that preparation has no effect because i don't believe in i don't believe that if i did i would tell you so then then you have to explain how how did that work i thought i did that no you did not if you did i would we will be moving on to the next thing there is so much to talk about but but if you can if you are not uh you know like if again i have electric collar on you use it i'm like yeah i feel something it's not bad definitely not bad definitely not good i don't know why we're

but it's there you go out of the way to tell me that this is not gonna do nothing and then it does and you've done all that conditioning i mean that's an extensive time that you put correct sure that's extensive time there is a clear purpose and the purpose that's why it's called conditioning that's why it's all this low level and whatever it's to prepare me for when it's uncomfortable but i don't know that it's uncomfortable until you all of a sudden surprise the hell out of me because throughout that time it was not that how do you do it that's i i'll definitely tell you i need to answer right does that mean that you agree with me now i don't i i won't i won't be able to agree with that ivan because because of all the dogs that we've worked with that tell us different okay so the dogs that come to myself or someone who trains similar let me let me stop here everybody that trains dogs that has a little bit of passion and a heart and it does it's not brutal can teach and accomplish things with pet dogs and the pet honor will be ecstatic every single time in fact it's one of the the the highest the dog trainers get it's not so much the money but it's that feel of of contribution and accomplishment and that ultimate praise like man you're you have no idea how much you helped me your jesus i cannot believe my dog does that i'm not taking that away from you but that's easy but those aren't the ones i'm talking about ivan i'm talking about the dogs that have been [ __ ] crucified with this tool sure sure sure and and you were successful still just because you are successful and just because everybody is doing it i still like like when you when i ask you that like really very clear and simple question that that that's not heart thing and you're telling me stories and how trainers and how you're successful i am not challenging that what i'm challenging is not if you're successful with it i'm asking how your conditioning that you spent that time prepared the dog for that moment when you set place and you used discomfort on the electric collar how did that how the two come together how does that make sense to the dog and how how your conditioning helped him how when you say that something is white and i fight with you and i'm like damn it it's gray no it's gotta be gray and finally accept that it's white and all of a sudden you i mean you spent three months to to convince me that it's white and i finally i'm like okay gary i think it's white and tomorrow

all of a sudden you show me that it's blue that's what you're doing to the dog you're saying right you you're you're you're showing him and teaching and taking extensive amount of time to convince him one thing neutral not that not that white not gray not black okay i guess i go with it it's white i'll remember that boom it's blue really i thought you taught me white how did you prepare me by telling me white for the blue it's like if you're a boxer right first time i got in the ring to box no one punched me in the face as hard as they could i had to spend some time understanding what it took to get hit what it felt like to get hit if i would have got punched by someone much bigger than me as hard as i could day one i'd never get back in the ring it's gonna freak me out it's gonna cause confusion i think if we could spend the next two hours talking about this i don't know how to explain it on my end any differently i just don't so so when you like i i'll go with that boxing analogy too so you go in the ring did they like if they were to be petting you with the gloves that would actually be pleasant but it was neither pleasant or aversive it was neutral so somehow you got brushed by gloves here and there in the ring and you're like okay whatever that is it doesn't and then you get punched that did not prepare you did it i don't know like i said i can't i'm giving you the best answer i can from my point of view okay let's go on let's go um so the intermittence phase is basically when we start using aversive and we start going a little higher levels what determines the levels the dog the dog's response to things with real distractions okay the intermittent face is equal reward no color e-coli no reward no color no reward practice everywhere in your book you're actually not referring that there is that change that just coming up now but we have to agree that that's an important change in fact in the book you're saying that the e-collar all you're doing with your completely mix-matching to where the dough is like i can do it with i can do it without i can do it only with that but it still seems to be neutral but let's say maybe it's in the higher intermittent stage that you start using an aversion sure and now let's say let's say we're

talking in in the book where there is a e-collar and aggression and we say you you you say i do not correct or punish the aggression with the color uh at least not too the not on the front end that's correct yes yes okay because i've seen it in in the youtube videos including seminars what what do you do i've done that one time in a seminar and i explained to people why i did it okay one time and so if that comes up and if you watch that i tell people this is something i preach against all the time i thought at that moment with that dog it was the best thing to do and it was it was fearful dogs now on fearful dogs you're saying that uh you know that that works wonders but you don't really know why but trust me it does oh i i find it very dangerous just as we talk about those trainers that uh um you know overuse and go on high levels and the dogs [ __ ] themselves and all that and we disagree with that i i see just like really five sentences here e-collar training for fearful dogs and basically saying that it works wonders and you don't know exactly why but it does and you don't say anything more and there is fear of there's so many different variations that need to happen i personally find this actually just as dangerous and in irresponsible to to say in a book like that and throw it there and say hey it works great i don't know how it does but go ahead and do it on your dog that's afraid of [ __ ] well that's not exactly what i was saying i understand where you're coming from on on that end but it's just i didn't put a lot in there on that because i don't do anything different but i have seen a tremendous change in dogs that really struggle with anxiety and fear over and over again for a really long time and so for me to go into more details i'd be making [ __ ] up i couldn't tell you why i couldn't tell you exactly why i just know that it does benefit fearful dogs quite a bit right that's this suits so dangerous this is just such a such a dangerous advice and i'm sure right now you i mean even if you don't want to admit that i'm sure you you see it just because i'm kind of pointing it this way um you know those are the dogs that just basically need help and it doesn't like it does not by no means i'm not saying do never use electric collar on fearful dogs but to say that it works wonders and that you don't know why how about finding out what the fear is and try to work with the fear and and if you cannot go to somebody that knows because obviously there is some demons that

the dog is dealing with so if he's disobeying place and you we are using a version to go to place there is no wonders in that way this is this is very misleading and and like if i don't know nothing and i get a book that says many trainers and there is many success and it works wonder we don't know why but trust me and so the dog now is afraid of lightning and there is that person on top of the lightning starting on working level conditioning and eventually reaching a level of aversion completely [ __ ] the dog up in a very nice prolonged way well obviously i mean of course that's never my intention of course i know absolutely agree i absolutely agree and that's why there's wasn't a a this is how you do it i was just giving my opinion on what it does that's why i didn't go any further in that right right right but you you see how i critique it in in you know in a way that i think we we need to be careful sure we have to be careful especially if we are saying hey you guys are doing wrong shitty things and and you know like that's a very this is like the prescription that the snake oil doctors gonna just yeah just pay me and you get the prescription um now when we talk about what uh that like like the question and answers there i want to just kind of touch base real quick on those what do i do if the dog won't leave my side while conditioning and where's the answer is going around many dogs will do this we call this a velcro dock it's not a problem you do not need the dog to be far away to start conditioning with recall and it goes a little further the problem i have with this is first if the dog is velcro to you he is showing insecureness he's saying i'm gonna stay next to you because if i go away things are happening i don't want things to happen somehow i found at least that spot that safety i think that's very important when when this question is presented what do i do when the dog won't leave my side while conditioning instead of saying many dogs will do this and saying that's called velcro dog and that it's not a problem to actually explain that things went a little bit too fast too soon the dog is unsure and is looking for help is is would you say that's what the velcro dog does sure sure absolutely okay good another question can i stop unwanted behavior absolutely where many go wrong is that they just put the collar and and go high but if you condition it properly

first then the dog is strained to the collar so then he will stop the unwanted behavior as a in is a breeze and there is no easier way so that one we cannot really debate because i couldn't get you to agree with me that all that conditioning that you do didn't prepare the dog for aversion like you refused to say that so we leave that alone at what age do i start the e-collar training i prefer the dog to be seven or eight months what uh what do you see in there like what is the like in ideal world what is the seven eight months what give me give me something i'd just like there to be a little bit of maturity and the dog to have a strong foundation with obedience okay you know i'm not a not not a fan of someone putting e-collars on puppies but that's again that's just me but if you're gonna use the color the way you describe as something neutral what would a puppy care it because i i still think the puppy should be built up should have a foundation right right but you're building them up right because it's easier to mess up a puppy very okay but but so again the question that i have is why would it be dangerous since we are not using it as a version we're talking domain the the foundation the conditioning phase where you do that little tap and it doesn't mean nothing so what there is zero danger there is zero nothing yeah you probably yeah and you'd probably be fine it's just not my thing not what i do that's kind of what i wanted to to get to when this is a different question when and how much should i dial up levels when the dog is not responding while off leash your answer is i don't dial up levels i always have the color set on appropriate level for the situation that's a another very misleading and and i would say dangerous uh answer and i'll explain why my motivation level to do or not do something will change according how bad i want it so if i decide that i'm gonna do something and the benefits are really really worth it to me i i will go for it and you will have a level that you have prepared for me for me let's say let's say i have a drink here and i'm like gonna reach to get the drink and you tap me on that preset level that typically i respond which is level 50. it's definitely discomfort but in two minutes later i see some really hot chick and i'm like i don't need to have a podcast with you i don't need to do nothing else i'm going out and you give me that level 50. i'll take it i have no problems taking it

correct so when we when when we are saying when and how much should i dial up levels it's not you know and the answers of i don't dial levels the like the actual answer should be the the stimulation has to outweigh the desire to continue and that is what i teach okay so let me reiterate that if i didn't go enough in there but that's not that that's not in the book larry okay if if i have a client that's gonna take their dog to the park okay if i have a german shorthair pointer that's going to the park he's going to be off leech off leaf then that client understands that that dog's going to be extremely motivated to get to animals and birds and chase things they're not going with that set that e-collar has to be set at an appropriate level to stop the highest level distraction that that dog dog is going to be i'll stop you here the color does not have to be set the code that's the beauty of the color the color has to respond the dog outweighs his options sure benefits and costs pros and cons right when we have like when i have workshops here or when i have like my graduation which you will have a lot of fun in i promise you we we play games we go in the the room where we teach and we train we put 20 dollars at the end of the room and anybody that wants to play we will put electric collar on him and if they can get the money it's their money and we go it's kind of we call it hung the hunger games and we go on and the price keeps going higher but we also put two colors four colors on the legs we've end up putting color on the neck as well so it's five colors but there is eight hundred dollars there and i have videos of people and not just guys that go and take the money there is a i will give you a very very cool which again this is something that uh we're gonna we go into a great detail during the the school but it's an interesting very super interesting study experiment with people healthy people volunteers prior to putting them in a know um like the idea is that they put them in a isolation kind of dark room nothing there like nothing and they gotta stay 15 20 minutes there and they have a before they go in there they say hey there is that little box by the way that if you push it it will you will get a little electric steam would you do it many people said no why would i [ __ ] do that then they went further to say well you know what we're gonna give you 50 dollars for every time you do it or five dollars or whatever they're gonna actually pay them to do it would you do it and they said no then they went in and the majority actually did it and a lot of them did it repetitively the the reason i'm bringing this up is

because motivation to do or not do something is what dictates what you do with the color sure and i agree with it so when you say when you say i don't dial up levels i always have the color set on the appropriate level for the situation you cannot possibly know what i think like what is my level of motivation at that moment that you already can say i have preset i know what ivan's gonna do i know i'm gonna stop him on 60. there's no way you the only logical and and reasonable ways to go along with what the dog does and you act accordingly or to have it set higher than needed possibly why i mean i mean it's an option but it's not a but you you you got my point here right sure okay yeah all right yeah i'm not disagreeing with that we move on can i use the e-collar to correct reactivity towards other dogs when out on a walk absolutely if you condition the dog pro properly and teach like i have talked about this is an easy fix once the dog is conditioned and that does not take long now again my problem with this is that going back to i still don't know your conditioning i i can argue with the whole world that that conditioning did not help with the introduction with the version my dog looks depressed since my trainer started using e-collar is this normal so that question kind of refers to the the shitty training and then going back to a lower levels and so on which is okay but just because we are going to from a really stupid high level training and now we are on on all levels and it's working there is zero guarantee in fact it will be a very wild guess how the dog's gonna respond when it reaches that level of motivation that says i'm going through and you have to use the level that the dog needed i i will give you some uh um like there's you know i mean again i i will never say this doesn't work i'm saying what i'm saying i'm trying to find logic and i believe this is my personal belief that the force free that whole tribe that ideology their narrative actually trainers that use this slow low conditioning help them fight against people owning electric collars and the reason for that is because it's overused it's presented in a way that i mean i've you know anyone that can use their brain understands that it's not true but it there is that sugar coating of of what it means and what it does there is no one positive trainer that will fail for that there is no the all the scientific

studies will not uh um you know just because we we're saying this we're not going to the extreme high levels but we are overusing it and we all that we are not preparing we are not doing much good there is even in the force free camp there is an extremist just like whatever the thing is with balance trainer which i don't want to even go there but but the average person that doesn't like electric colors they uh um it's the it's the that kind of explanations that it's like oh yeah it doesn't it doesn't and not but then it does there was a studies arsene and halts these are like the old school studies where you know you had the rat and amazing you could do pretty much anything you wanted to um i mean you still could with some in some situation but anyway what i'm gonna give you as an example is a very very cool experiment what they did was they they put a cheese at the end of the mace of course there is the rat that is the end of the mess the finds its way to the cheese it's the cheese but it also has a little plate metal plate that actually runs electricity so they start to see what would it take to stop the rat from continuing to go to the cheese the beauty of the electric colors or or anything with electric experiments is because it's super easy to control and manipulate levels to the the the minicule levels that we need to consistently right so they start on a super low level they start on a level where the rat let's say goes on the plate and it stops there and it's like do i feel something no and goes and gets the cheese then they increase the level but it crisps by a little bit it goes it gets the cheese they continue to increase the level the rat continues to go and get the cheese eventually there is a break point right this is where the neutral becomes unpleasant the rat is like okay i've been getting my cheese all the time i i feel it a little different but i'm going goes and gets the cheese level continues to increase of course this is not just in one session i mean it's a you know a thing that they've done with plenty of rats and you know it reaches a level that the rat is clearly in great deal of discomfort i mean it's trying to jump it it's trying it's actually screaming it's it's there now the level is not cool no more it keeps going and the reason it keeps going is because we have conditioned it that they can that they can actually overcome it and even though physically it's like [ __ ] but the mind is like you can do it

sure enough a high enough level is reached that the rat says you know what thank you that's that's madness no more cheese for me so maybe that level was from 180. then they bring a very clean slate never never had anything no no no conditioning and instead of going from level one and two and three they just go level 25. enough that it's not unpleasant it's not i'm gonna die but it's like man that's [ __ ] up it's clear discomfort and on a single try the rat says thank you i don't need the cheese so the just of that story is that we a lot of times can do far more damage in terms that we will need much higher level than what we need if we do certain things and we can argue that well but it's still level 20 it's not that high my argument is that if we didn't do that prelim work we can do it on 10. you know what the problem with that is ivan yeah when we talk about something being dangerous what you say has a lot of power right in the dog world so think about how many people are going to go back out put the e-collar on their dog that shouldn't be training dogs like you said earlier and going right back to high levels from the start like the whole damn dog world failed 20 years ago that's what's that's what they're going to do so my whole purpose was to get people to stop doing that that was it to stop doing that what i i i see what you're saying and and here is the the problem with what you're saying what i'm suggesting is actually far less like far less use of electric collar in the dog's life like far less and also when you use it you and and be effective if you use it to suppress some undesired whatever assuming you've done all the rest differential reinforcement whatever whatever everything else but it's time to actually use a version data version will not require the level that you will use therefore when when there is education when we don't write books and say oh i don't know how it works but it does but we actually teach each other we have this kind of conversation like right now this is a a super cool conversation and we can have that same conversation with the force-free ideology people nobody can argue with certain things i like you you will see in my class i start with a very fundamental biological programming that everybody the single cell organism anything living in our planet is programmed to approach something good and to avoid something bad this is where everything starts

including even if you if you have food that you like even if you don't think you're kind of drawn into it and there is something that you don't like and you're like trying not to using a version there is no like this is what it's called uh uh it's innate it's biologically programmed it's in our dna for the billions of years from whenever that very first cell became a life being from design god evolution whatever it was but it's in our programming we understand and very good like this is the most simple thing that everybody we don't need our human high level brain this is a we are biologically programmed to respond so it's not a it's not a something out of this world that's happening there is a there there are many studies that show that with prior exposure to electric stimulation the the subject that eric have experienced that they can they become much more tolerable like at least twice more tolerable we we can talk about habituation you know getting used to as as i started the the i don't know but i i believe i talked about it a little bit but like learning learning one of the really cool definitions of like in in um it was uh what's his name john stadham like i i have a really cool podcast with him if you haven't check it out because it's really he says learning is initiated by violation of expectation a surprise the more we create a habituation even when like um there is again a whole different topic of how dopamine and how we activate and and all that and but we we are not there to even talk about that dopamine gets controlled dopamine there is a dopamine crash dopamine also gets habituated it's not always the way we think about it dopamine it doesn't really go go always in in that that sense um so habituation to the aversive is less likely to occur with limited or infrequent exposure to whatever that aversion is that's there's no questions about this and we can make wonders when we use it correctly in that sense like we will be highly effective and i will tell you something switzerland is one of the really they they started the whole thing i mean everything started in early 2000s with this study in in holland but that's when they started to promote the banning and again we we talked about this a lot a lot in this class but switzerland really took it they were the first country that took it to a completely different level to where you your dogs are taken you are not allowed to have dogs you will go to jail you will have a fine like this is a big big crime

however they have their chosen few that still can use the e-collar the problem with that of course is it doesn't you know like somebody from one side of the country schedules an appointment and goes one time it's effective to some extent because of what i just said with that habituation and and the prior exposure and all that but of course if they had a better opportunity and and do the things that they need to do in their own environment instead of driving for five hours on the other end of the country but the my point is that ultimately not the not the scientists that just are starving and need to get paid for something and keep repeating the same experiments and just try to put this [ __ ] where positive reinforcement is the solution to the world everybody knows that it's not if it was i will go and pay the money and learn it if it was you will go and pay the money and learn it there is everybody wants to do better if their [ __ ] worked we will jump on it but it doesn't and if it did they will not have that so ultimately if we have the correct like like if we're not bullshitting each other if we actually talk the talk that needs to be talked we have much higher chance to defend the caller because ultimately a true scientist cannot argue that that's how biologically we work if if the the narrative of the force-free world we will not have police we will not have uh uh you know i mean you know you you've been in that type of work like we will be just good people no something needs to keep us on track it's just the nature how we are programmed and scientists know that and in fact they know something but we know more in some ways because our lap is every day doing things with a lot of dogs all they're doing in there is they have five dogs and they will make a conclusion according to those five dogs and their conclusion will be based on not even understanding training concepts so but uh um that's that's another one i i will give you one more and then and then i'll have you this one is very interesting uh just just another reason why and i can go on with more but it like this few hopefully it makes sense and everybody it's not just for you this i i hope that you know every time people are like oh you're only talking like this but you never educate you never tell us it's like no i i can tell you there was a a really cool one um what was the name holland pierce it's like 1978 or 80 or something like that so they would have a the dog there is three dogs like it's it's easy but it it can look confusing but there are three dogs so so they teach them to uh press level you know i mean it's just classical experience they're in a box

and they're pressing something and whatever the one dog is presented with a tone something and a low stimulation another dog is presented instead of a tone with a light and a low stimulation and the third dog was presented only with a tone no stimulation right that's like the first phase of the the experiment so they do it long enough to where it's like okay ton wick shock means something tone only means something light and wink shock means something they drill it enough to where it's spared it's conditioned the dog understands okay there's consequences right now they present them with a instead of the low stem with a higher level of aversion the it's actual strong strong level right and everybody gets it all three of them in that phase of course all three learn something there is no question about that i mean it's a you know things have changed right but the the actual question was which group can learn faster to suppress the level of pressing in the presence of tone only so there is no electric anymore and the group that had the this is like the cool thing the the uh um if you wanted you know it's almost like a puzzle at first or at least it was for the scientists when they did it because when you think about it the dog that had the tone and the weak stem he was introduced to both already then we change it to the higher level but ultimately that was the dog that learned he did learn but it learned the slower of the other two the one that had light and tone i mean light and low stem still learned faster than the one that already had stem and tone the one that had only tone but no steam whatsoever also learn faster than that one it's a very interesting like there's like quite a few studies like this that come um that show how how we respond again again like uh you know when you when you don't have a narrative and you're not one of those uh what you call them the cognition labs and they they really have a gender no positive reinforcement is the solution for everything and it's just like it come on like it's it's exhausting let's have a conversation for a change we can all benefit because if we don't have that conversation everybody's hiding you can see what happens in europe they people get threatened they're filming them hiding like luckily we're living in a country where this kind of stuff hopefully never is possible but still i i think that we we really need to have this kind of

conversations and we need to discuss and it would have been so easy for me to just be like yeah it's okay but if sometimes somebody doesn't think that it's okay have an opinion i think that's how we change that's how we evolve that's how everybody gets stimulated and starts to think about it and i don't think it's wrong sure and and like we talked earlier when we talk privately i had nothing to gain from this conversation nothing but no one else wants to have it correct okay no one wants to have it so i stepped up and said i'd have it because off to that like sincerely two main kinds of people that are going to be excited to watch this people that want to see you go after me 100 guarantee it because especially your people a lot of people that are real tight with you they love that they hate me they want to see you tear me down and then there's going to be a lot of people that want to see what you do and if i don't ask you they're going to be very disappointed so they want to know what do you do okay if this way is not the best way what is the best way they're going to listen to you but we've never had that conversation at least i've never seen it you understand what i'm saying so five years ago before i write that book and trying to change people's perception of the tool if you call me and say hey i see this book i don't agree with it i think you should try this you know what i'm going to do i'm going to try it i'm going to try it 100 because that's what i do that's what i do so of course here is the thing with there is a one of like really and hopefully i i don't want butchered the quote right now but oh it's this astrophysic neil degrasse tyson oh yeah i know what you're i know what you're going to say help me i know exactly how did that go quote you know enough to think that you're right but you don't know enough to know that you're wrong and i think we are all there i am i'm like never in my life will ever claim that i am the authority of anything as i said if i know anything that's of interest that even even if slightly i believe that i can have a some some mind stimulation that's gonna you know challenge me or or help me get better i'm right there i'm student for life absolutely keeping that beginner's mind there is no question but you know ivan like your other podcasts that you mentioned right with the academic people they're they're they're phenomenal filled with amazing information but the problem is most dog trainers are going to listen to that and be excited and try to understand it but it's not going to help them in the application they need to hear things that's going to help them in the application of the dog training and so

when you tell me i don't agree with this i don't agree with this and totally understand that but they want to know from you what would you do different that's what they're going to want to know right so you know you're going to know everything that i teach like there will be no stone uncovered unturned i share everything including like if i if i come up with something and i have played long enough and i know it's working or i read something completely new which i this is all i do all of the time right in the middle of a class i will change modules i would delete information and i will be like this is wrong there is another one with with einstein like a super cool quote like he was teaching at whatever the university he was at and one of his helper students you know graduates like preparing the material and he's like you know dr einstein this is exactly the same stuff that we did last year why would we do that and his reply was things have changed we need to revisit things have changed things change all the time you know and and me telling how i do things on social media or on a podcast who who is a professional dog trainer i'm saying professional dog trainer that teaches dogs for free and why would you i mean sometimes i trust i mean i give plenty of advice plenty of advice like like plenty of advice i can be in a middle of a competition and i have five of the top competitors that are against me will ask me a question about how would you do this and i will just go this and this and this but at the same time i have spent about 20 years of serious work to create that program and i think you and i understand that not not everything is it's just you know like like really what what would you want me to do it's not that i don't share it's absolutely not true right i mean you're coming you're coming you will know you will know you know and it's not that i again i i here and there i i give examples i give ideas i i throw things but i cannot like with this specific thing my answer and you will have opportunity we're going to discuss this i would i would enjoy like we're going to have amazing time when we when we do the the course like i promise you it's gonna be amazing like i've told you i will i will completely triple refund you if you don't think that but like the actual electric collar to me there is nothing voodoo there is nothing magic

what is really the mastery and the skill and understanding is knowing genetics knowing when nurture when nature he has the say like again i'll give you another example because dog trainers are stuck in behaviorism which is so outdated like in that pure it's pure skinnerian form where skinner said oh punishment doesn't [ __ ] work and the other one said oh give me watson give me anybody newborn and i'm gonna make him whatever i want through reinforcement and punishment we know this doesn't work we know in the 80s what they were doing to the gay community trying to it's just stupid [ __ ] we know better but dog trainers are stuck there still and when we have like in the 60 his name was john garcia he made a super cool study the behavior is they hated him they did not let him publish this because that was one of the moments when that whole thing started to crumble and and real quick this is the experiment and i'll tell you why is it so important because using the electric to me is the easiest thing we need to know what ticks and how and why so he decided to do an experiment he rats of course he feeds them some food specific food but then later they give them a little drop in the water some radioactive thing just enough to make them puke and get sick nothing more the rats just like us it's proven it's it's in the the books condition and and they learn how to they're like okay i don't do that no more i know exactly that food is not good for me i mean that's why you know like you we can be at the indian restaurant and we can do whatever but the next day even at the night and we start having stomach upsets and you're like man that i know exactly why but our brain is programmed it's designed through all that evolution to catch that it's of our best interest so he takes that experiment in a whole different level he's like how about i give him that food but instead of putting some drops of radioactive and make them sink from inside how about i just as they're eating i start flushing lights and make bang noises and whatever and skate the [ __ ] out of them and see if they will stop eating the food just as they did before and of course they didn't they were sure afraid they sure stopped eating they sure checked out immediately but we're they're not biologically programmed to connect this is a completely different department in the brain that gets stimulated and so that was a a really big deal because when we're talking about oh we can just reinforce everything no you cannot the the scientific literature is endless like any evolutionary biology uh paper can just blow their minds this it's ridiculous to to you know

talk like that so understanding genetics is a big deal understanding how reinforcement what you can reinforce what you cannot reinforce how to punish what to punish what is the level of motivation what is emotions how emotions come up what is the dopamine and how much all this stuff is what the answer really lays into it's not about what level you use the control on i agree i agree 100 with that 100 i don't disagree with that and please like for everybody that listens like i absolutely i mean very sincerely hats off for taking that challenge because you [ __ ] knew that i'm not gonna back off and i believe that the conversation that we just had like you should be applaud because what you did for everybody you made me talk and and and give ideas that typically i wouldn't and i think people should be very thankful to you for that like really i i believe that from from the bottom of my heart i'm not scared to have a conversation that doesn't go my way i knew this wasn't but it has to be done it's got to be done that's all there is to it you know and whenever the time comes and trust me it will i i will have a [ __ ] up idea please tell me somebody i mean they like in the you know how the whole thing went i mean you know how it went the social media sucks in some ways because it's a no matter how you say something ultimately it just goes like this let's see that fight it's like [ __ ] you it's okay maybe i said it to whatever i was in the moment it's unforgiving it's it's really crazy and we don't learn this way and we don't whenever we have the opportunity to talk in person like i've talked to you before i talk to you now i will talk to you after i always we're gonna have super cool conversation with you i talk with pretty much all the people that the the you know everybody that was typing was trying to put them on the spot all you should have with this one with this one i talk with these people all the time we have conversation we don't agree on certain things but how would i not respect somebody that has put his life in dog training he has his heart there i don't know i don't know it's human nature sometimes it's just crazy but yeah i am tired i don't know how are you like how long we've been doing this what what time is it two hours and 35 minutes [ __ ] how are you doing yeah it's a long time no i'm i'm i'm fine i knew i knew you were going to ask a lot of questions that i couldn't answer or didn't agree with what you on your side of it but like i said i'm i'm always willing to do that you know and it's not right or wrong i mean you ultimately everybody sits on it and thinks it and and takes what what you want to take and

what you think it's helpful to you like there's i for sure there is something that everybody can take away from this and that's already amazing oh there there'll be so much confusion over this conversation you know they'll won't know what to do they'll want to know more they'll be asking more questions but we cannot do it this is the danger of social media and i wish we can do like in the matrix you you lay down and get plugged in and two minutes later you learned kung fu whoa just [ __ ] i would do it well it's just it's it's got to be done but that's where we are with it like like today i think our minds are just we cannot stay focused on on one thing for like ridiculous amount of time and and everything needs to be you know presented in some sensation everything is like we got to read books and we don't read books to learn and especially now i mean you have kindle you have audiobooks you you have so many ways just as you're driving instead of listening to some i don't i i again i don't want to say that all podcasts are stupid but you gotta like everybody has to kind of use their brains and there is main there's a lot of information out there that we can learn you know it's there but ivan there's not a lot of information on what we're discussing today there's just not you know when it comes to the e-collar stuff there's not a lot of information not factual information it's all the same stuff you know it's it's all the same stuff here's the before here's the after video yeah it's horrible horrible that's not beneficial to anyone it's just not it's it's some for some reason we are in a we are in a competition how long how how much faster i can train the dog than you yeah you cannot i cannot like and why would we put the dog under that torture to just flood them with all this [ __ ] in a week or two and even if we do what do they retain something to be learned you need to understand it then you need to practice it and then you need to stay long enough to where you actually create a healthy new habit but somehow those places oh i i can do it for this short time time it's like no you're doing nothing you're just blowing the dog's brain for no reason right it's so wrong yep it's so wrong it is and hopefully we continue and and there is always going to be good and bad though it's just i all i want is and this is why i keep bringing and i have like i i have really cool i think three podcasts that are ready but somehow we got stuck in this and you know like if we didn't do this everybody would be best everybody on social media can put each other in this conflicting and animosity but the more even when we hate something and we disagree on something

the more we actually meet in person and have conversation we realize that we all have the same i mean at least the people i talk to we have the same interest we have the best interest of the dog the best interest of the family we we want to have our rights we want to do better and we want to improve and then we find ways and if somebody says something stupid because of what you and i just did go ahead be the dumbass do it whatever well they'll they'll be like i said there'll be plenty of people that will try to crush me i hope not i hope not oh there's always going to be there will be plenty of people that don't like what you had to say that's just part of it you can't make everyone happy right right yeah no it's true it's gonna happen um but it if you still wanted to have this conversation i had to do it it's very much appreciated and as i said it was wonderful that we had a conversation and even the haters would benefit from the conversations yeah yeah and and ultimately maybe dogs benefit and and maybe the whole narrative of the force-free ideology also realizes that we we actually trying we want to do something of course you know always always and we'll continue it in person that's right it's gonna be awesome i've you see all right ivan thank you again like seriously and and if somehow i came too harsh to whatever apologies hopefully we make a cool conversation my friend not necessary no that's that's what this is about you can't be scared of of the confrontation and the disagreement you can't you can't do it that's not me you know i'll have a conversation with with anyone always have thank you man [Music] you