반려견 훈련의 미래: 로버트 카브랄 & 니노 드로와에르

if you train with tools or you train without tools i like i've seen people with tools that that suck that can't use tools i've seen people without tools that suck so both sides have you know pros contrast so i'm not so much interested in in the tools itself to me it's you know it's been a process of understanding how i got to a certain point and and like you know a very small period of time so i i had and i think it was 13 years ago i posted a video on facebook and that video got 48 000 shares which was a lot back in the day it was huge yeah shares shares so back then they didn't even track views you could not even see how many views but given the fact it was 48 000 shares that's got to be millions right so and i was surprised i was surprised like why does everybody want like to me it was just another day you know in the office uh sort of speaking my dog was on laughs rise movements but very crisp very on point fast precise to me it was the norm but apparently it was not for most people and i i don't think i ever had a question at that point was i would have done with a caller without a caller i didn't even pay attention to it but for me to then you know becoming a coach slash teacher you know a speaker i had to backtrack and see okay how did i get that success where does that come from what how how was i able to make my dog look so good even though i had no experience i had no previous knowledge of training i had nobody that i knew that was you know uh affiliated with professional dog training back in the day besides you know somebody that was training within the club but i was just you know for me to go out and then teach about what made me successful it wasn't about tools the first thing that came to mind it's like what were these mechanics what was moved what were the moving parts what was making a difference what were my priorities in my training set what made my dog be so fast and so energetic and and how was i able to flow and synchronize with the with this dog you see those terms are what you know stuck to me and related to me as okay well nina is known for a certain style a certain type of movement and of course you know along the the way when i started posting more videos people started asking do you use tools have you used a marker so then they were asking questions and i know why they ask them people want answers to comprehend to understand how a result was was created and by giving them you know an answer to it was this tool and it was this marker and it was this type of ball and it was this kind of jack and with this kind of food it's what they ask you the whole

time i'm sure to ask you too robert like what food do you use what color do you use because people want the tangibles you know but i see what i see is in order to have a performance you're looking at so many subconscious skills that go into this that we almost as speakers also forget to mention them because it's in your subconscious if you're working dogs and you've done it for such a long time and for you it's it's very normal what you do for some people they go wow he's got it he's got i gotta pick this guy's brain i gotta understand everything he uses why he does this and this is a great question why you do stuff but i think there's a lot of emphasis on tools and markers and positive versus negative and i was never a part of that game i've been an advocate for using tools at the police uh where i was an instructor police canine handling for years you know a long time was at the committee who decided if you could use tools and ban tools like e-collars for example for police instructors and canine handlers and it was it always stuck to me as what kind of a you know debate it was it was always about you know should i use it should we not use it it was never anything discussed about true skill a combination of skills this this competency you have to create and is it talent or is it a competency like what kind of uh control mechanisms you operate on like all this stuff that has such a huge influence on how you work with dogs and how you get results it was never discussed so you know for you to come and to ask me you know first off the bat tools or balanced versus uh positive i you know i have opinions of course but i wouldn't say that would define me because i have done phenomenal things with puppies i believe you know the way they've moved and the way they've you know showed and i've done things with tools also where people go it's because of the tool so i think both worlds you know have their right to exist and i actually love both i have a positive trainer that i support it we have a positive only class on my platform i love it i love this stuff and i do a lot of it myself and but i also use tools and i've never said i didn't so well no i think that's exactly that's exactly where i'm going with this i i think somebody like you or me you know and and many other good really good trainers it's not about the tools right it doesn't matter okay so for example i worked at the shelter you can't use a prong collar okay i use a slip lead and i use cookies you know that's fine we can do that

um i i think it's an interesting topic you said something really interesting at dinner um one night you said these people come and they watch you they watch me they watch the next guy they watch this guy and then they go home and they're really not going to apply any of it right they're just going to go back to their same old thing it's it's do you think that in training that when people want to be a trainer that sometimes they absorb too much information or is there such a thing yeah for sure absolutely there's such a thing as absorbing too much information and also the order the information is given look there's people are going heavily on the cognitive skill which is they will teach you about science they will teach you about skinner about pavlov you know all these things you're right so your cognitive skill is through the roof and then you go out there and you apply zero it's one of those things and then you know you go to conference where there's multiple speakers but everybody has their own style everybody has their own unique ways of combining these skills and it's hard for people to see you know what they should be attracted to if because if you're looking at results let's say they put robert next to nito and they'll go okay i see robert's dogs very responsive and and he's very clean and wow looks great okay we see nito well it also looks good so what do we choose like they don't know because you know for pros like us we can look at details we can look at you know energy we can look at so many things where we would go make an assessment and say look maybe this is the style you lean towards you know based on what you want based on what you want to acquire based on the sport competition whatever you're in based on the breed so many variables so many uh parameters you can look into but for you know the common people that started dog training which were a lot of professionals new professionals well i mean what is this like you have 10 20 30 people coming in and they all have a different style they all have a different opinion though i mean how are you supposed to walk out and know okay this is where i'm going to go to you only get 90 minutes so yeah i think it's these initiatives are a great initiative i think for professionals but too much might be sometimes too much so you know how yeah how do you process all this stuff look and back back to what we said you go out on the pitch you're not going to remember any of these people what you need is a blueprint what you need is you know a process that's stuck with you where you

understand what your part is what skill exactly you're going to apply this conscious application of the skill at hands which you need for that specific task process well that's what matters and nothing else not who spoke at the conference not you know what theory belongs to who nobody's able to process that in the moment where the dog reacts really fast he does things unexpected the whole time you can't cope with this so it has to be in your hands it's got to be in your feet literally and you have to start living the moment more than think about the moment that's about to happen because i've seen it so many times very very knowledgeable people but when the heat's on and with the heat's on i mean the dog's ready to work he's coming out the blocks and for me coming out the blocks means full energy right usually the dog outworks them a lot so the dog's a little bit too fast they can't see the mistakes they can't process you know they can't analyze what went wrong they have to readjust they don't have the skill maybe to readjust so there's so many things going on and then the sweat literally drops from their head and at the end of the session they don't really know what went on and then of course you know the good thing is about dog training that the more repetitions you put in the the more strength dog gains in understanding it even if you've done it if you're not completely understood yourself the dog does a good job in understanding kind of what you want from this you know and that's just the thing so in the end then all systems work because the dog's going to get it somehow you could do things completely opposite as what science tells you and still get results that's that's the thing so do you think trainers oftentimes especially you know you you have a very big online platform i have a very big online platform do you think that because i have a gut feeling on this do you think trainers make it too complicated for people like like oh this this scientific term and this scientific term and this r plus r minus right quadrant left quadrant that it's overwhelming for people like i don't know i i get lost in all those things personally yeah i feel they they're looking for answers to validate what they do and they're looking for these answers within science and science has done great things i'm the last guy to say that science does not mean anything but you got to look at it this way if you're coming home with that new puppy or if you just got a dog from the shelter both huge challenges do we agree that you know both this is going to be something right your your life's going to change

it's going to have an impact so you're not going to be thinking of all the science that's impossible especially where you you're going to put things in the equation you go out like when it starts to get very theoretical you lose people right but what really matters is like what are these hands going to do to you what what difference can you make day one and usually the biggest difference is what choice do you make what do you prioritize and what you envision this dog to be and then what would you believe the pathway to this vision is based on the skills that you currently have or the ones you need to develop and then your process will look you you will either do things even without the dog maybe some of the things with the dog so it needs to be really you know well thought over because else it becomes such a what such a mess really because the dog gets involved right away you're involved right away so many things going on and look nobody has time to think about theory nobody does that it's always their subconscious i say cognitive skills help a lot once you have some mechanical you know basis to to fall back on and then you know you can read into all this stuff and it will make sense to you i i truly think it does but to use that as a cliffhanger to sell your system or methodology or to back it up i've never been a big believer of it and i'll tell you why uh robert because when i had the 48 000 shares i never read anything about science and i had a result that people did not understand how i did it and i had to backtrack myself like yeah well i came from a non-traditional way of coming into dog training as you know i i didn't look at it as oh this is what i do first i read a book first i i read about science first i didn't do any of that i just went in and my angle was movement as a former track and field uh runner or i would say um practitioner because a runner you got to run really fast to call yourself a runner so that didn't always happen right but i was i was very big on the movement i understood look if i analyze what an athlete needs to do to be really good at what he does it's about mechanics it's a physiology it's you know all these components it's so many things and i looked at dog training and it's like i wonder if these people consciously move the way they do or it's just all coincidental is it all the dog like i had to i had to figure this out so i came in from a different angle so for me the mechanics the movement the physiology what you could do to make a difference the way you move the

way your angles look i i think i i understood pretty soon that this was going to make a substantial difference i mean that's just one of the parts that you know led to the the whole methodology that i got in my head so yeah i think that was really interesting because we talked about that and we both came from a very non-traditional i came from martial arts you came from track and field and i i knew nothing about dog training i went to the shelter and i was working with dogs and it worked and i was able to help and that's what i think attracted you know us to each other our friendship because um it's it's really not you know the scientific thing the people i find that talk a lot about the science are people who lecture too much and don't do much practical application and also people who are always criticizing right people who get online and are going to put you down for this or put you down for that and then they're going to quote scientific things skinner things pavlov things you know and all these other um scientific terms and in the meantime they're not really training dogs and that's always been my pet peeve where science gets in the way of the actual training i i have no problem with science i like it i'm not good at it by the way i don't know much about it but i certainly do know what makes the dog tick and as do you you know your stuff is very dynamic very very you know you know powerful and stuff like that and i think that's it's fun they that's i think the biggest part of it i think that you you make the training look like fun and i think the most important thing and this is something that i talked to vadim uh about who's the head of the um igp the ships in usa they're really bringing this into igp not into akc yet i wish they would but they want to see how the dog works like when i see your dogs working with you they are happy right they're happy to be doing the job my dog goofy almost 13 years he's happy to be doing whatever he's doing so i don't think the methodology matters as much did you use a cookie did you use a prong collar did you use a slip lead and again what kind of cookie did you use but getting those dogs to be happy and dynamic and connected is something that i strive for you know it to help people understand better and is is that along your line of thinking too yeah so what you refer to in my vocabulary because we all have our thoughts and i would call that energy master so what you see when we refer to happy dogs i what i see is is because we can't ask them are you truly happy i mean we don't know so we base ourselves on these

yeah that's right so you know we can only base ourselves on these you know subjective uh things like you know is his tail wagon is he is his ears up or you know does he want more does he feel like you know he's energized and that's what i say energy master so if you can amp up that energy and you can exchange it and that's something that's never been talked about like you know science does not talk about energy exchange between master and dog they're not dog trainers let's not forget pavlov nor skinner were dog trainers okay so it's hard to see them as you know the examples of you know how you should be looking into doctrine because you know they've done great work in researching some behaviors but they were not dog trainers so you know and what you refer to is i see you know a happy dog that to me means high energy so the question is how do i get that high energy now if we ask the question how do we get that energy that means well then what do you use right so now we go again to is it a cookie is it a ball but that's the thing yes there is going to be rewards involved in this process there is going to be movement involved there is going to be a setup involved where you manipulate the predator because i call it manipulation it's a predator if if you would leave it on its own it usually chooses its own direction its own prey it's it has its own peace of mind like it doesn't follow you by nature so you know we manipulate so there's so many things here that go on and the question then is then how good are you in assessing what the dog is you know willing to do what's his instinct based on how do you work that instinct and how you manipulate him by something that he wants that source how do you create more attraction to that source so if you start looking into it deeper it's really a game of energy like okay if that ball gives an x amount of energy what would a moving ball do but if i use a moving ball how much control do i still have over him do i need to use corrections or do i need to use tools or leashes or whatever so it's this continuous process where you have to make decisions all the time but that's we go back to the beginning you know are you qualified to make those decisions yet because i love to see people work the ball but i always think it's too soon you're not qualified yet and by not qualified i mean you don't know even how to amp up the energy and drive but now you want to use the ball as an obedience tool and you're going against the dog's instinct because the dog wants

i want it now i want it now and i want it fast but he can't have it now and fast because it's a delayed reward if you want to do obedience with the ball so here's where the trouble starts coming in then what is your what is your process what is the way you're going to approach this do you understand now what skills are going to come into play because if you're going to use a ball you will need a tool because you have to stop the dog from getting the ball right away okay then how do you use this tool how do you how do you hold the leash then what do you do with the leash what kind of subtle technique is involved and again then it becomes crafts work again what do these hands do how much intuition do you have how much imagination do you have on what can possibly happen before it happens and it's it's this kind of stuff that's also never discussed you know have you looked into the brain of a world champion you've interviewed world champions but you can talk about their successes and and what they do and stuff like that but have you really done a profiling a profiling a psychological profiling you know how they operate you know how they subconsciously add up all these skills that's the thing we don't because we look at the dog's result and we you know we have a tendency to forget how complex this process can be from a handler's view but because it's in the subconscious it's hard to start talking about it so then again we refer to simple things as food and ball and and and you know and and tools and ascend away and then oh yeah we put a ball in the back and then the dog goes this is the stuff we can easily understand but the psychology stuff is is way harder and that needs i mean that's a cognitive skill that i find very interesting maybe even more interesting than coming in you know with the science stuff about skinner and path off right away sure because talent development is um is also science because talent means your combination of skills that you can simultaneously apply and access and how do you do that and what can stop you and what behavioral patterns are there that can you know hinder you from developing it's really important to understand this i think even more than what operant conditioning means for example you said something interesting though you said when i said a happy dog you said a dog that's high in energy but on a flip side of that you have to look at high energy isn't necessarily happy high energy can be frustrated you know when i see a dog that's happy it is high

energy um but it's also a connection between the handler and the dog and i think that's not talked about a lot in you know whether it's online training or in-person training i think that's one of the most important dynamics is how are you connected to that dog do you get because i've worked with dogs that i couldn't connect to you know there's certain dogs that you just you can't not everybody can connect to every animal but that connection is so important right yeah i think there's a beautiful english word that i love to describe it it's called the symbiosis is that correct lisa symbiosis yeah absolutely it's great yeah so that's that's where that you know unnatural because we're two different species yeah and we start interacting and you could feel like you could feel the dogs happy even though you can't you can ask it like you said but you're never going to get an answer but it's a connection that tells you this dog is legitimately content with what he does i could you could just feel it and nobody can tell you differently yeah that's right so he's coming in he's volunteering himself like i want to be in this game yeah i'd enjoy it even you told me to stop it but i'm going to come back and yes you're right i think there's a very good um remark you made on well how much is that frustration of not getting something he wants to obtain something so he goes in high energy frustration because he wants to obtain it so is that a will to obtain it maybe also a little bit of a stress level to him and that's why he's amped up legit questions something we have to think about because a working dog if you look at i'm sorry yeah go ahead no no good finish what you said about the working dog yeah i think the working dog is is such a you know difference between you know having a house dog and a working dog which is supposed to perform that's the definition of working dog like you tell him something that's that belongs to his purpose and he has to do it and i think there there is a level of stress involved because just the fact he has to perform else it's not a working dog you can't show up at your trial and then say all right you ready and dog is like no i'm just going to go back to the car there's so like there's a duty to complete there's like if you're at the police like i have done so many years you take the dog out of the car i mean this is like it's a no-brainer you got to do this right so there's always a level of um of stress involved you know anyways so yeah i think that connection i think a lot of

people who get in they see you they see me they see rocky they see goofy and they're like i want to do that and then they go buy a malinois and then they sign up for your course my course whatever and then they end up either one of two things or it's one of several things either they become very successful become very good which i think is the least of it um they do the course and then stop halfway through and go it's just too much you know or they just get really frustrated and then just go to another course another course and another course because it's you know you make it look very easy i mean i i i aspire to make it look easy and attainable but is it really is it really is it really that attainable well it's a this is a big question you're asking because immediately when you said people go to this course to that course to that course it is related to subconscious driver behavior so i'll explain that to you somebody that has taken responsibility or wants to be accountable for having a certain result with a dog even though he maybe he discussed it with his family anyways he made a decision to do this right and he's not getting the results but because he took responsibility he will do anything it takes to ensure that he can come up with some kind of result if that means looking at 10 methodologies he will if that driver for example is what we call a hurry up and a hurry up will do multiple tasks at the same time to ensure that he gets a result and the result is sacred so they will get into multiple methodologies does that and this is the behavioral pattern i was talking about is that the right way to go no but it's subconscious driver behavior let's get a little bit deeper into driver behavior what that means exactly but it's specifically here this is a case that is not so uncommon because what you mentioned happens a lot so it's not a coincidence so where does that come from you see and that's where you can link this to driver behavior because people that do multiple things that can process multiple techniques of many people it demands a certain type of person the be perfect for example driver bank main driver be perfect will never do this because he wants to be in control of the process he wants to be in control and when he is doing multiple things at the same time he can't be there will be chaos in his head that's not going to serve him so when the driver is under pressure so in this case when the result cannot be guaranteed see that's when the driver becomes to become act starts to become active he will start looking okay maybe i gotta look at this guy maybe

gotta look at this maybe i'm missing something here so he starts you know and he does that subconsciously because he thinks that will ensure that result because i've done everything i could and i can process all this stuff and something will work out it's just these are some of these subconscious behavioral patterns what i talked about and and like every driver there's five main drivers once everybody has a main driver and i'll tell you where it comes from but when it becomes activated basically you no longer have control over these patterns you're falling into and one of those drivers the five main are be perfect hurry up please others be strong and try hard so if we well i i'm a combination so you have one main driver and you have one yeah and you have one secondary it's a very private question because if you take these tests basically you need somebody's permission to share that because it gives you as a psychologist we get a lot of insights basically in the nasa in 7075 every astronaut in there they they did a complete analysis on their driver because in the most i mean in the most severe conditions as being in a space shuttle locked up with with geniuses i mean let's face it these people are geniuses they have to do the most complex stuff you don't want their behavioral patterns showing when they get stressed and the first thing that goes out the door when your driver is activated are newly learned complex skills very important to know so but anyways i can share my driver mine is uh be strong it's my main driver so be strong is about taking responsibility guaranteeing a result that's why also a lot of people clash with other people right not because they dislike the people but let's say your main driver is be perfect i already mentioned be perfect and you want to control the process you are under stress and you want to make sure you know if you do this this way it's going to work because i've done it so many times right you have your your track record you know that is a process you want to but i'm not interested in the process i want to come with the result and i will do whatever it takes and i will just dismiss your process and i will skip beats and you no longer have control over this process it's going to drive you crazy this is all hypothetically i don't know if it'll be perfect but that's what they call a clash of drivers do you want to be in a space shuttle where you are getting a clash of drivers between two very competent very talented men or women you don't want that so now the question is then how can you anticipate on this driver getting activated because when it

activates you no longer have access to all your skills that means by definition you will come you will be less talented as you were before right and that's something you have to avoid so again related to dog training what is that probably going to do to you so the be strong has a tendency well i'm going to ensure this result so if i need to use a tool and this is just i all hypothetically if i need to use a tool i will because that will you know ensure that i can get this result driver behavior now let's go back a little bit where all this comes from driver behavior like can you choose your driver right and maybe i want to be perfect maybe i want to be try hard but that's the thing you can't as a young child between the age of three and 12 you know 13 you do subconscious things with your parents the whole time only for one thing which is you want a connection with your parents you want to be safe and you want to be loved this is not something you choose this is by instinct this is the way we are programmed yeah so you will do subconscious thing yeah subconscious things that favor you to to get this love or this this safety now these things specifically that you do are related to drivers so for example let's just complete example out of the blue your kid comes home and they come out with a report and they say look mommy i got a report from school oh let me see oh you got some b's and you got an a okay great how come you got that b and and no no bad intentions you just ask how come you got to be and you get a kid gives an explanation to it they might think look it look didn't seem so happy maybe if i got a straight a they would love me more this is subconscious thinking this is not they just go what if i do this right and this or they do it and it works all of a sudden you are now creating a driver which leans to be i got to be perfect i got to make sure that i control this process i got to come with a perfect result i have to you see on the other hand for example you could have a kid be strong take responsibilities if i complete this task mom and dad will be happy if i ensure i can get with this result mom and dad will be happy after they told me to do this so i'm not going to do anything else before i do this you see so subconsciously you do stuff which works now that's not something that just goes away we all agree that in your childhood that's when everything's being built so and that's so strong that this main driver as soon as you're stressed it's going to relate to what used to work for you so you're going to show behavioral patterns that work for you now

within the uh equation of then working dogs you're going to show certain behavior when you work the dog related to the driver it's inevitable it's not like you can choose it it's inevitable some people that try hard they will do anything to impress the significant other so that could be their coach could be their mom could be their dad could be their sister could be their kid could be anyone they want to impress and of course they will do things then to ensure that they can do this it's what we call their two extrovert drivers that's a try heart it's related to people and the police others so and these two are very prone to have you know depressions and burnouts because when it's human related it's it's it's more of a risk to get burnouts and stuff like that so it's not very uncommon when you see people at a club very very very unhappy this is and stress literally depressed how come some of these people are pleased others so if they don't have a choice when that driver gets activated what matters the most is they want to have the connection control over the connection with the other person they cannot live in a environment where there's uh beefs going on or so they will do things that don't agree with yeah so if they're going to do things with their dogs they don't agree with just because they want to maintain the connection so now you see now we're not even talking doctoring anymore not even techniques methodologies food ball this is pure human psychology that plays such a big role in your choices you're going to make and how you will have access to the skills that you've learned and you know dismissing that i think is is something that takes us back to well then i guess we're just going to focus on what ball and what stuff to use right and what jacket to wear and all that kind of stuff because there's nothing else to think of i think doc trainers doc consultants doc experts have reached that way too less to external consultants which are experts in other areas to help us coach yeah so i mean when i was a police instructor and that was a that was a pretty long class or how you call it like a program you had to take it wasn't like i just got this with a bag of chips you really had to do a lot of effort but the amount of psychology coaching skills were not zero you you are designated coach as a police instructor so once you have the certificate it's like you're now designated to teach xyz you're going to do it now you're their coach and doesn't work like that being accepted as a coach is a process

and we can talk about this is a different topic of course but it's not something you can do overnight that's why designated coaches like this are not likely to have a lot of success in this environment you see because it's a natural process if i accept you as a coach robert that means you will have an impact on my life before i'll allow you to have an impact on my life i need to you know go through a few steps and i you can't just be designated and then assume that well i'm your coach right that's that just doesn't work the soonest thing that can happen as as soon as we disagree or i think you i doubt your expertise and we don't have this uh coach relationship established i would go well he's full of anyways i i don't buy what he says i don't agree with what he says i don't care i think i was right from the start he didn't look all that smart i knew you see you'll find so many reasons for you to believe i wasn't going to be my coach anyway so and all this is also one of these things people call themselves coach right away like you you have this is something you have to earn and this is once you establish a coach relationship it could go really deep because the coach understands the b level of a person they understand from the inside of all these other stuff all these other things outside of his dog training expertise that play an important role in their personal development see now it's not about dog training but you're right and i think it is really about psychology and human psychology we've always talked about dog psychology dog psychology where understanding those those moving parts of why a certain kind of person can handle a certain kind of dog or why a certain kind of person can handle a certain situation better and it's not it really has little to do with men woman you know big tall you know strong not strong i think it has to do with the psychological strength this this inner key or strength or power whatever you want to call it um and also a lot of you know criticism is out there like you know that's one of the things you see that like what you said you know we disagree and then suddenly it's like well that guy's no good anyway you know i never really believed in him or whatever and i know i know a lot of dog trainers people always say you know the only thing two dog trainers can agree on if the third one's wrong and i don't see it that way i mean i know a lot of dog trainers you know and i think um i respect a lot of dog trainers i watch you i respect what you're doing i watch somebody like

you know frank phillips or peter and connie shark i watch them and i think wow these guys are really good and there's there's there's a component to that where it's not about my way is the only way you know my real goal was when i got into this it was never to make money it was just to help people with their dogs and then i started making money i said oh i can make money and help people so it kind of work hand in hand but there's a lot of egos that go into this game where people get really offended easily or or disappointed easily and you know do you see that with your you know where you are and the people you coach as well all the time very very common what you say is is especially to the dog training industry and i think it's a to me it shows a lack of true confidence you know if if you're like if your ego is shattered just by somebody critiquing or whatever or getting comments on a video that means you you maybe you feel insecure about it whatever so and you know in this game to see somebody else successful i mean somebody who's very successful and this has nothing to do with dog training they're always happy when somebody else becomes successful it's usually the other way when somebody is not successful and then they see somebody thriving or you know making a class making a good course making a nice video and they feel this hatred almost they're they they can't stop it they have to come you like could you imagine like spending private time which you could have done something else on hating on you know somebody you know what that does it's very unhealthy but people do it all the time all over the internet i think you're exposed to it as soon as you go on the internet you're going to face with oh man this is full of crap why are you doing this don't listen to this guy i just had a youtube comment like no you know never never buy a single class online it's all free you can find anything online for you see it's all all these people you know and i think usually when you know we come into this world of protection work tough dogs right you know there's always ego involved but i'm always surprised how easily these egos get shared just by having a dog that not that doesn't perform or underperforms they get mad they get frustrated they get angry so much anger in this world you know when it comes to dog training it's that has struck me the most it's one of the reasons that at some point i'm like maybe this is not so fun anymore really like why they always you know amped up about anything you know i remember making a huge mistake once i like to share this because we have

to learn from mistakes i'm against choking a dog out i've been very transparent about it i don't like it i have my reasons so it's a different topic of course and somebody asked me like what do you mean exactly like and i showed a video and i made a big mistake of showing a video where there's somebody like displayed in the video so of course they're gonna feel addressed right even though it had nothing to do with using them specifically right yeah and that just you know the whole hate show began began and like i did it was like almost like i was attacking this guy but i wasn't because i know so many people that do this like we're in europe here i mean know so many people that i could use anyone but i just took the first thing off youtube and and the amount of hate like just truly people coming out the woodwork to express their beliefs because if people have the same core beliefs they become allies right so if you have a core belief that choking a dog out is definitely amping up his drive is helping you that's a core belief and if somebody goes out there and says hey guys that might not be the best way to go it's they become the hulk it becomes nasty nasty so i was like okay this is not fun anymore this is not about this is now about egos this is now about somebody believing that i'm trying to put them down even though i wasn't but because i don't agree with it this certain way that all of the all of what they do is it's it's like crap that's not what i said it's not what i mean but you see that's i think it's a good example of how egos are bruised easily and then the thing is was it wasn't you know once this person started to get involved it wasn't about you know the technique anymore it was about uh decoying is about you can't do this or you can't do that yeah yeah like really okay okay so you know it was one of the my my mistakes that i did is like okay i shouldn't have done that i shouldn't have put somebody on this video because then of course they would feel addressed but on the other hand i learned so much from it and i think a dog training is always learning from mistakes in this case it wasn't like a dog training related like on in the action but it's one of those things and and this industry is full of you know nasty stuff you know we and it starts with what you mentioned in the beginning positive versus tool use it starts right there but i mean and i do think for example like i said i spent 10 years in the shelters and every single the only time i ever used an e-collar prong

call in the shelter was to demonstrate on either my dog or on me or a person how it works i never put an e-collar or a prong collar on a shelter dog to teach anything because i couldn't do it my hands were tight and that's by animal rights people you know i call them nut cases because i think they take it to the extreme but in my private life with my dogs and dogs i train for clients i enjoy you know certain dogs for example i've taken more prong collars off of dogs because they weren't working than i ever put on dogs same with e-collars i've used e-collars and prong calls on a handful of dogs my dogs you know both my dogs are all three you know duane as well work well on them i have a problem when people want to ban it across the board and that's when it becomes a political issue right and that's something that i've seen in you know germany switzerland all these different countries i just had a person who wrote to me um they got a thousand dollar a thousand euro fine in switzerland for using a prong collar and people in the newspaper are screaming that it's not enough and you know it's it becomes this thing i think any tool whether it's food a leash your hand a prong collar and e-collar they can all be used in an aversive way right everyone but to take the tools away to take them off the table completely i think is a hindrance to and again i'm saying because of my work in shelters i've seen thousands of dogs in shelters i've seen many dogs that you know that were at the shelter that the next day i go they're in a barrel or they're laying dead on the table because nobody wants them right so they and it's not even that they won't they don't even want you to pop the leash on the dog so that's the hatred that comes in and my point was always for for 10 plus years i said anytime i'm in the shelter you can just show up you only have to call just show up and we've now i you pick my dog i pick your dog you take either an hour a day or you know three days whatever my program was and we'll meet back and but nobody ever those people that criticize on the internet and it's not like what you said what you said is you didn't agree with the technique you might like everything else this trainer does but you don't agree with that one technique which is that's fine who cares if you don't agree with something that i do you can grow from that or i can grow from that because we can exchange ideas but to shut it down i think is where um we need to rise above the other people and you know and not criticize and not be angry and stuff like that but just to keep on shining

and keep on doing what we're doing yeah but this is a very interesting topic um to see how far they took it which is by banning the tools by finding people even putting them in jail jail sentences if you if you're getting if you're getting cut and you like keep doing it yeah you're looking at five years sentence that is a possibility okay five years in jail and thousands of dollars yeah because you know if you're a recidivist you know you're going to get more penalties and at the end they're going to put you away so and if that's e-color use in some countries that's what it is but always let's look at it because there's no logic in it really if you break it down there's so many um you know heights in this whole thing but if you break it down why do people come to this because i've i've i've come from you know police background and as canine handlers we were also in charge of um looking into animal abuse especially dog abuse right they call us and all those years and all the people that i've known you know quite a few canine handlers across the country because i met everybody as an instructor and when i asked them how many files have you gotten like how many and uh how do you call it animal abuse related to e-color yeah cases do you have none okay like none nobody nobody does that mean it doesn't exist no but that also means that they do have a lot of cases of animal abuse dog abuse so what are they related to well they were not related to e-collars so the 100 of the cases and there's a lot were not related to e-collars so if there if there's no stats on e-collar abuse which has any significance but not even the 0.1 like literally there is nothing right so why is this a top priority then for politicians and that's where we go into okay well this is this is easy bait if you're a minister of agriculture and you put out i mean this is what's happening right now in belgium are you against animal abuse and you see a dog that's getting you know shocked or whatever which normal human being would say no man that's totally fine i'm okay with that everybody would go of course they're playing on your emotion like are you going to shock your best friend of course not right so it's it's very you know if you go into their thinking process they just go look we can ban this for you if you're against this just vote just vote and we'll get this thing done we get we get we'll deal with this and and these people that vote for this do you think they think about robert cabral and you know and xyz trainers that are so you know big about you know helping dogs or making the right

you know or using the right skills no they're thinking broad generalization do you want you know people to shock dogs nope can we can we stop it yes make the vote and that's it so i mean if you look at the the lobbies that you know they used for you know the pros and the cons that already tells you who's in these lobbies yeah there were people vets that were you know in the anti-lobby for many many years and so who's the pro well they didn't invite manufacturers for sure not so and then there were people's friends they invited who didn't have you know the right backup the right experience whatever and that's how you come to these laws and the thing is then you get a domino effect one country does it europe european country and now okay who is it switzerland right with switzerland that belongs to the european union but it's seen as you know high development country yeah so if they do it maybe we must look into this so then somebody else does it and so on and it brings votes and people are happy because you ban a certain tool uh banning abuse yeah exactly that's what i was uh as i meant and and they don't care about the collateral damage robert they don't care but tell me about because i don't see it here i mean i see fallout i there's a lot of positive only trainers i think they're the most vocal group on the internet and i have no problem with it because i do 90 plus percent of my training positive only you know where and you have your own positive only course you'll teach people how to train the dog using only positive methodologies but how what kind of fallout are you seeing in europe from the from the from the lack of the ability to get a prong collar or to use a firm fair firm correction or to use an e-collar are there fallouts because people are saying there's no fallouts can you define fallout you know i'm not a native speaker what is fallout please fallout means like negative effect of the ban for example are there more dogs being given up in animal shelters and stuff like that um i honestly don't know how big the fallout is because i can only relate to my community and within the mvp community the people that i actively coach there's like a some people from europe we're talking sweden um switzerland germany so and compared to you know north america it's not so much but the people that i do talk to it's horrendous the stories they tell me i literally i can't believe you i'm totally shocked with what i have to hear like how these people yeah so there was somebody that said look i have to take care of all these dogs there's aggressive dogs going on and

um you know i i try to do my job and i try to make sure that everybody's safe and then i use a prong for example because they put it all in the same bracket prong collar e-collar she uses it and then and then people see her and she gets called out for it they're going to call the police they're going to send the police to her she can't do her job on the other hand there's dogs attacking her dog who are totally off leash that should be all fine you can't use a crate all that kind of stuff comes on top of it she puts the dog in it's like look this is insanity you're trying to do a job you're you're you're serving the community you're helping people with serious issues like you can't let these dogs on the loose even the person that does my positive only program uh i mean we both in it but she like she is the one like she holds all the the keys the secrets to it uh i mean she's a pro she uses tools also i mean you can't just go out there and say look you know i'm gonna put my knock myself on the chest and i'm gonna do it all that that's that's crazy but the way these people are now shoved into like almost criminals in the criminal corner and you know that's just wrong it's and these have these people have generally good intentions and if you have good intentions why are we getting pursued almost by a government that you know does nothing to look at this problem from the bigger picture look like why are you gonna hide there's huge problems with dogs there's bite incidents more than ever there's crazy aggressive dogs that nobody needs a license to buy a dog nobody's gonna ask you hey robert you qualify to buy xyz dog with you know that weighs 90 pounds with jaws like this nobody's gonna ask you it's just you can you can't but oh if you want to use something like you know to to navigate through this you know process of of having a dog of this size or or with these issues they're coming after you that's just wrong and if i look at this country belgium the the home of the belgian malinois right this is where it all started and our minister says hey um look at this malinois um intercepted uh al-qaeda number two right they there was a belgian malinois that was not so long ago i think it was about two years ago yeah and then six weeks later the other minister of the same party says yep it's the rap people we're gonna ban the e-collar uh let me ask the first minister how do you think that dog was trained you thought you think it was just you know it came out of a litter and that's what he did is apprehend terrorists no it was trained with an e-collar okay so you know if you're gonna make a

judgment on collars then don't brag about these great dogs we have from special forces that are trained with an e-collar and this kind of hypocrisy is very disturbing to me uh but it goes way further than this if you really read on what they've designed it's like okay here in belgium like specifically they say we're gonna ban all e-collar use operated by men people but we do allow electric fencing wait a second here yes bark collars i have to look into this i i'm not sure 100 sure i do know they make a distinction between okay human operation none invisible fencing yes wait a second here dog gets you know any collar around his neck invisible fencing yes right who's gonna put this fence in the ground people yes who's yeah who's who's gonna ensure that this dog understands what this fence is gonna do people yes but you can't operate okay now you can use and call it around the dog's neck so the post is smarter than the human supposedly and and now wait what is this like they can't even come up with like all right it's no no they have to make this little exception but don't you try to use it even if you're competent or not we don't care but the post is competent and then the statement was because of course people started questioning this and they asked like why this and not that well they said the dog has a choice with the invisible fence he could choose not to cross the fence look last time i checked that is the whole purpose of training dogs that you have them understand their choices and they can make a good or right one yeah so that went so against the philosophy of a good dog trainer that you go what why are we being like uh belittled by our government why are they feeding us why are they treating us like idiots yeah like don't you do this you're too dumb you can't use it but the fence the post in the ground they will fix it for you what is that where does that come from why do we have to 2022 where the internet you can find anything any expertise you could be a scholar from the internet you could be you could be anything anything you imagine to be you you have online classes i have online classes there's information all over the place yet government has to tell you don't you do that because that is dangerous that what are you talking about yeah like you're just gonna hide from all these but it's brought about by you know and i always think that the people the positive only people um is the extremist i think they come from a place like they don't want to see a dog get hurt right they don't want

to see a dog get shocked i mean look i'm the first person who tell you i've been to plenty of igp clubs ring clubs and you know obedience clubs and i mean i remember an akc club this woman was frying this little aussie frying the dog you know and it was wrong but that doesn't mean the tool should be taken away from a responsible person right i mean here my argument is always we have abuse laws i'm sure belgium has very strict abuse laws we have very strict abuse laws if you abuse a dog you must pay the price right but that abuse shouldn't be dictated by the tool you're using in other words if you're abusing a dog on an e-collar just frying and frying frame you're wrong you should be fined or have the you know whatever be put in jail or whatever but there's no limit to that like if you have the dog okay let's say you have to use a flat collar and a six foot leash and then okay then you kick the dog right you don't have the e-collar you don't have the prong collar now you're just kicking the dog and i saw a a a trainer he was a very very competent trainer who went positive only and he couldn't get his dog to to to search on a track he said soo soo and the third time he just kicked the dog in the rear end all the way down the track the first leg of the track and i thought that was more abusive than you know either frontlining the dog or pronging or stimming the dog on an e-collar to get the dog to do it if that was the case i mean first of all on on tracking you wouldn't use that but the idea of kicking a dog with your feet is emotionally more abusive to the dog than receiving a stim on an e-collar which is once removed from the person yeah well you make sense you're you're an expert you're a professional it means nobody that could debate this with common sense that has trained dogs like this because that's the thing the people calling hey band is do this have you ever trained a special forces dog have you ever trained high level dogs high drive dogs if you were trained muscular have you ever trained a very tiny dog and also using or implementing an e-collar where you had you know unbelievable results because of your sophisticated touch because of your skill because of your you know an analysis on how to you know approach this and and normally people that do you know i mean people that have that are very efficient because of the skills that they use and then the tools becomes you know the oh but they did it with an e-collar okay so that makes him an idiot now it's it's also one of those things okay oh you did with

an e-collar um yeah so what doesn't count yeah am i not competent now i'm not confident because i did it with any color okay i get it so it's the e-collar that trains the dog it's it's also one of those biased things uh but you see nobody cares about it robert they want they want to get rid of it because they believe if the majority is too stupid and that's what the statement they're making you're all too stupid guys even if you educate yourselves you're still too stupid we're gonna ban it because you can't even buy it if they would say qualify show us some skills some proof it would make start making more sense because everybody's you know for having skills in order to use something complex as any color maybe but there's no such thing because that would take a regulation that would take people to to see if these are being followed up it would take administration so now we're talking resources money they're like hey might as well ban it get get even more votes yeah so why bother look we're like we're having a debate here but there's nobody to talk against who is a who has a shot caller in this industry to maybe change it that's the thing and you can't reach him even even if you have a lot of online presence if you're renowned no nobody asked me in belgium i have federal instructor certificates you know i've been traveling the whole world doing e-collar universities before you know i am an expert in field because i use it i have trained police officers i have you know gone to australia even trained special forces the sas talking about e-collars and all that kind of stuff you would believe they would somehow maybe ask an expert that has done this they've never did they never did so and when i yeah and i don't even know what expert did they get on board to see okay then if somebody's against it then who can give us some other thinking processes yeah no i don't know anything about it look they just handled their business in in some dark room i guess there's already maybe it already made up their mind it was just a facade i don't know well you did a debate i'm not going to mention the names but i watched the debate that you did with it with a person who was who claimed to be positive only and you had incredibly good um debate skills with this person and your point was to if two normal people like not even dog trainers just two average people watched the debate they would see one your and i'm sure they can search it your candor your um professionalism and your knowledge on the topic of using an e-collar and this other person against it couldn't really argue against and i was looking

at it very optimistically let me you and i had just met uh my wife jan had told me to to watch this debate which you told me to watch a while ago that you did and then i finally watched it and i gained a new respect for you because you did handle it well you you made your point very well and you and you you enunciated on your positions very clearly um but this person you know kind of sat with their arms crossed and they were very you know and i that's kind of sadly what i find in the whole movement in other words there shouldn't be a question that abuse is abuse and we should all come together against abuse right and many won't because even though they're positive they will still use a form of abuse whether it's withholding food or you know or poking the dog or doing other things but it's not the tool that's evil it's the mind that's pushing the button pulling the line or whatever it is that's evil like for example choking a dog you you can have a dog on a flat buckle collar and choke them off or choke them out right but and that you know maybe the laws should be pertaining to the methodology of abuse as opposed to the utilization of a particular tool yes but going back to that specific situation like if you have to go into a debate and she voluntarily went into the debate so props for that right not everybody wants to do it because it always turns into a show so you can't change your mind halfway so whatever i say even if it makes sense even if you give legit examples even if you if you try to find a middle ground you can't because you are against it you can't change your mind it's like talking to a vet and my experience is she came here the professor you know published a lot of things in europe anti-e-collar we had a debate here with the professor that helped me create the mvp and it was a very nice conversation i mean there was no heat but she said look guys she said i love what you do that all the talent assessments you know how we start looking at dog training she was really excited about it genuinely but she said i can never help you guys because you are associated with e-collars we almost fell off off our chairs especially the professor he said what do you mean professor i said what were we bad people now she says i've been doing publications like i can't like come to you if you have on your website dogs with a collar on or even you educate about e-collars that's a no-go and that told me look if a smart person like that this is generally smart person says even if i agree with you guys even if i

want to back up this whole story i can't because i chose to be in the anti-lobby that says it all yeah right so so we could bring out which we did see we said can we bring out our dogs can we show what we do can we everything was all in vain she was never going to stand up and help us in our other process we wanted to get uh you know some sort of validation from scientific standpoint on the talent assessments and stuff but it was it was i went into a debate about e-collar and it wasn't supposed to be about any color but we went to it because of the i am against i am before i am now in this chair and i have to be against so it doesn't matter what you say you can make sense robert you make sense the whole time i generally feel that i listen to your uh lecture also you're a good speaker you make a lot of sense in the stuff you do you say it's built on expertise it's built on on true results but you can go out and and be a you know member of the lobby then where you have to speak before you think they're gonna worry or care about what you say oh you help thousands of dogs from the shelter with that tool good for you we're still gonna stop it you see it's it's inevitable it's unstoppable there's no common sense anymore try not to find it it's gonna frustrate you yeah i fought against the the biased uh anti-e-collar within the police in the early years now they all use it they all use it it's an even part of the the the whole training but i remember the day when i was you know doing you know the first steps to i was uh the the the the amount of hate i got from my own colleagues was i said sometimes you got to think is this battle what is it just pure madness it's it's not based on common sense and it's going to come to the us it's inevitable also because they're they're taking it they're trying to get it into territories you know certain territory like new york has a thing on the agenda the here's the problem with it you know is i i think when you take that tool away and you make it illegal people will still use it but they'll use it in a more negative way you know it'll it won't be on the surface you won't be in the public with your e-call you're going to be behind a fence somewhere you're going to be in a barn somewhere you know burning the dog doing what you can do and then you're going to come out and go okay let's try again you know and that's where really when you take it out of the public when you shame it when you when you don't allow people to be open and and and experiment and learn and educate themselves and and and be proactive about it then you're going

to move it into the back alleys and when you do you know like drugs like prostitution like any other thing once it becomes taboo it doesn't really help the the the intended victim right in other words it doesn't help the dogs because okay so we can't train the dog with the e-collar people say well if you can't train the dog this is one of my pet peeves and i think i talked about it at iacp i said people always will come to me and say well if you're such a good trainer train the dog without the e-collar and then i say back if you're such a good trainer do it without the cookie right i don't train dogs with e-collars i use e-collars i layer them in later i use treats i use motivation i use energy i use the dynamic relationship very much you know you and i are very much on the same page as that but um taking away a tool that i might need later or may not need later you know that's where you're going to hinder the the the thing and it's not about the electricity because electricity you know we use a tens unit we use um we use our phones we use you know we use other things that require electricity it's just we're we're labeling one tool as being bad you know and and i think that i think another problem will be is saying well you have to be certified to use it that's the next step that they're saying is well you'll have to have a certification but then who's going to be the person who's going to certify those people what are they it's not going to be you and me right it's not going to be somebody who's really qualified to teach you know e-collar or certify people on e-collar well that you don't know but i would say if that debate ever comes up i would definitely you know maybe take that route towards finding the middle ground because we're going to lose we're going to lose because in the us doc industry i mean the pet industry is a 65 billion industry you think anybody cares about the numbers on e-collar sales ridiculous look it's not even a fraction for minimal minimal the impact will be so minimal majority doesn't use it majority doesn't need it right because they don't they're not even exposed to it of course in the us you have a lot of professionals so you have a bigger chance if you all you know start to team up that your lobby will become bigger here in europe it's non-existent there was no lobby of professionals that's marginal so we had no chance we were already you know we were done before we started and i am the collateral damage of 0.01 nobody cares but i started i stopped caring as well because if you care about

things that you can't change you'll get frustrated and and that's not what i what i want either so it's become this thing where you when i have this conversation with you i'm like oh of course there's still people with common sense but then you know we step outside the door and i even have to tell my own mom why i would use a tool like that because she doesn't even understand and that's totally fine because she's not into this business she doesn't train dogs professionally she yeah and she doesn't know working dogs abilities and and all that kind of problem solving it it's not a problem but if anyone would ask her would you agree uh with shocking dogs you'd say no well neither would even yeah but that's the thing that's how it's you know that's how the campaigns are yeah and people are voting on the topic they know nothing about right and i think that's oftentimes the the situation people are voting you're not a dog trainer she's not a dog trainer but you get a vote just like i get a vote on a topic but i'll tell you what what i think is important you know and i was talking this is kind of i was talking to a couple of guys online a couple of the bigger trainers online um here's my goal i'm going to put it out there to you and i'm going to put it out there to these other people we have a large audience we have a large reach right we're very well liked people i mean maybe you're probably more more like than me but i think i know about that you're nice but here's the thing i think by putting content out there by putting dog training videos like you put out there the fun stuff on instagram and you know and all the good stuff like you know showing that and showing that a lot of these results are attained by using a balanced training method which might mean a slip lead it might mean a prong collar it might mean an e-collar and putting more and more of this out there because when i look at for the most part the people who are criticizing me i mean there's one one or two people who just barrage me they just take my videos off of youtube download them and then narrate everything over it and one of them is this huge akita 100 pound akita who tried to bite his owner tried to bite every other dog around and we used a prong collar and e-collar and now the dog perfect dog can be around all the dogs dogs dogs fine they never look at the end result they look at the process and say see he's doing this and this is why the dog is like that he's doing this and this is why the dog is like that but yet these people have never attained a result maybe they went to a you know one of these people

went to a school you know one of the local schools i'm not going to mention the name um and now they're they have maybe one or two videos i'm training a dog but they have eight videos of them criticizing everyone from me to and i'm not gonna say the other people's names um but that's the the brunt of their work is criticizing so perhaps if people like you and i and and some of these other well-established trainers online can just band together and put good content out there and be open and be vocal about yeah we need these tools that maybe there's some hope for somewhere whether it's maybe something can come around in europe maybe it can prevent it in other countries um where we have that voice right we have that platform where we can show people the thing is robert here's where i see the first problem coming in is that label people love to label people and they will tell you you call her trainer e-color trainer e-color trainer and you could say so what yes that's that's totally fine but at some point it does start to hurt you because e-color training to the broad audience is seen as people that lack skill that needed to control their dog so there's a negative undertone so if you're a social if you keep saying about the e-color you become this face of the e-color now become the face of evil now you get exposed exposed to even more hate and at some point you know you have to look at okay what's the gain here because i mean what you're doing is in the common interest of everyone and i see that's a very very genuine thing to do it's a very nice thing to do you know for the community but what has the community given you seriously what has the cure yeah well i mean it has given me something i mean it has given me i make a very good living i have a good position i love my job and i follow my passion but but just to just to correct one thing i don't i'm not saying we should be e-color trainers i don't think i'm labeled or you're labeled as an e-color trainer but i think just speaking out and saying that they're that the tool should be available i may or may not use it but it's not you know you and i know trainers who that's all they do that's just everything is e-color e-color e-color e-color e-color and i know pet dog trainers they get a client in first thing an e-caller goes on the dog and everything is trained to the e-caller and then the client gets the e-caller and that i think there's a place for it right there's certain things that i can do with an e-caller that i really can't do without it a great example

i know we got to wrap this up because you and i could talk forever and we should have many more chats like this i think people will really enjoy it i'll give you an example i talked to somebody i'm not mentioning any names this person's a trainer for for hunting and i said to him i said you know because at first my wife didn't want to use the e-caller on the dog to get the dog to bring the duck back and i said please let's do this because we can fix this and these suggestions came out from these other people with everything from well you'll hide in the bushes and when the dog doesn't come back you come out with a stick and you start chasing the dog beating the stick on the ground and i thought that's about the most emotionally mentally abusive thing i think you could possibly do to a dog why not let him run away bump him on the e-caller when he turns back to you inspire motivate him to come back and abundantly reward him when he gets back he's going to figure out his one movement created a negative circumstance which was immediately fixed by turning back and the problem was solved and thank god my wife you know did say you know let's give it a try and we did and literally in an afternoon the dog understood it and you know and then people said to me well okay but what are you gonna do when the e-collar is not on but that is an idiotic argument because what are you going to do when you don't have a cookie or a clicker or whatever you don't have the reinforcer whether it's a negative or positive reinforcer for scientific people but you form the behavior the behaviors form so my point is maybe i use an e-collar on i don't know five percent of the dogs i train if that but i'm gonna say hey i think it's a valuable tool i i don't think we should ban it and again with your audience my audience these other people's audience who who we all know maybe it's a platform that people will say well you know robert's not against it you know it's not against it you know this guy's not against that guy's not against it but the people who are against it let's look at their following let's look at who they are let's look at the results they're producing it's my it's look honestly you know it's my it's a dream that people in politics would actually say well let's let's look at it quantitatively let's let's let's really evaluate who's for it and who's against it what results are they getting what results are these people getting i don't know i'm processing everything you're saying um no seriously this is something that you really have to think about you make good points good arguments um

i was just thinking back at something you just mentioned right when you talked about the hunting story the new debate that's coming now is not anymore because this makes so much sense what you say it's almost a no-brainer than if you would have a debate with somebody and you say or you're going to chase dog with a stick and and whatever he's in he's in this catch he needs to do this stuff with the hunting that's what he's built for his purpose they'll come at you and say who says he needs to hunt then absolutely that's the next question and and the same thing with protection or ob why does the dog have to walk with his head up why does he have to do a go why should he go out to the end of the field why they want couch because dogs well that's a it would just shift the whole problem to you know non-existent like you don't need any color because your dog doesn't need to chase this rabbit or need to it doesn't need to retrieve it you can just pick it up yourself or uh no i mean that's just one of those things and or only use dogs that don't need it then if your dog is is willing to then well then i guess the dog's not fit right yep so you get this um yeah it same goes for protection works you know now they've been sending uh dogs from germany back to holland because they can't use collars and they can't control them they can't have them to add because they were used to you know on high drive using stim and then the dog can't just overnight become a positive only trained dog and i see all this stuff but you know what they do just send them back now yep could be it could be a great police doc but they just right here have it back and that's that you know incoming full circle in our conversation this is this is the collateral damage right what what's going to happen to those dogs they're going to be put down they're going to be put in you know in some kind of a shelter or some kind of a you know a home you know sanctuary where they'll never experience life they'll they'll be you know they'll just be shut down until the day they die and they might as well just drown them when they're born you know i mean it's it's very very sad you know years ago that's what people did if the dog came out they were too aggressive they just drowned them you know that was very well people don't talk about now anymore but now they're letting you know every dog comes oh if even if it's sick oh it's got three legs that's okay let's get it through anyway you know those are the dogs that were either put in a freezer or put in a bucket and that was the end of them

but if we're going to be really humane the dogs then we need to be humane all the way around we can't just be humane part of the way and this might you know like i said this is my dream i mean again i'm kind of semi-retired from you know from really working that much now um but i hope to inspire other people which is why i went to icp to carry on this fight for the good of the dog really and when you i see the dogs you work with and the dogs that i work with in the shelter you know they deserve a chance you know they don't deserve two or three chances if they bite somebody in the face or they kill a child i think they should be killed that's my point but i do think they deserve a chance let's see let's give them that shot you know yeah yeah what i meant earlier with you know if if robert becomes the face of the community which you then are you're like on the barricade you're a forerunner you you're lead by you know helping other trainers to come on the same platform and share this uh concern legitimate concern but that's when what i mentioned is how can you ensure the community is not going to turn against you and then diminish all the work the good work you've done because they will see you as the root of evil because you said they scream the hardest there is more way more people and and how is robert going to win like the five percenters that's let's make it even ten so many people against the common you know uh thought of e-collar users even in my close proximity is like some of them oh you oh that's right do you use it we don't really know anymore because you know we don't talk about what i do every day it's like oh right yeah because we're actually against it this is not you're against your brother you're against your well no but you know right because we know you're you're doing good things with dogs you see so it's so deep embedded that process of i mean that concern of people shocking it's so hard to find you know reasoning and all all the stuff you said here tonight uh was was on point i mean it's undebatable of course you're going to need it for these shelter dogs they need new futures they need new i mean anything you can use that involves skill and your talents and why not but i think we're so far off from common sense like the debate that i had it's like i've generally felt this is a smart lady she knows exactly what it's about and yet she could not agree because she was not supposed to agree and i think this cognitive dissonance almost is leading to a where there's no outcome there's only losers here and switzerland germany

uh belgium now holland like all all these countries can you believe it belgium and holland like both banning tools this is where it all started guys you love you love those dogs in the us that you use in special forces and operations and canine handers saving people you know detecting explosives whatever camera dogs what do you think i know special forces people i talk to them i i know i mean there's people always brag about it but i actually know them they have a dog off of me yeah hey guys i said what are you going to do when you know the band is installed they said well well we can't train a camera dog without the tool right but yeah are we going to train a camera dog with such a important task and you can't you got to go with luck maybe maybe he'll that's the thing and that's what i mean like there's purpose and and why does everything have to let's say the caller adds at some point some stress look in these situations the stress is still better than being killed why is it such a big deal i i have stress every day as a human being nobody cares you have stress everybody has stress oh but the dog has now stressed for five seconds in his 24-hour day oh big problem yeah well they've proven i mean again we can wrap it up on this but you know there's been proof that a dog you know you a remote caller the stimulator used in a remote caller created a level of stress but the owner or the handler yelling at the dog created more a higher level of stress and that can be proven scientifically can be proven if they ever want to get down to that but again i don't i think you said the right thing they don't want to prove it scientifically they just want to sweep it under the rug and pass the law and get more votes yeah yeah that's that's why i'm sorry i have to start you know close the debate with i'm a little bit skeptic in the chances we got but you're right i mean completely given up would definitely not be an option yeah but you know i'm not new to this anymore i've been in this for almost 20 years and i've seen it like from being very uh controversial to acceptance accepted and now going back to now banned just government banned i'm seeing like look where's the end of the tunnel here and you guys in the us will probably it won't be this year or next year maybe in the coming decade whatever it's going to happen i think at some point but you know just like you know in the us as as more i mean there's there's stronger lobbies i believe than in europe so we hope so you might you might you know be good for a while but in the end the perception look if i hear

this is maybe also interesting as i had a phone call with somebody from the emirates dubai they were talking about a ban in the middle east as well like a country like the emirates which surprised me because their animal laws are not as like your western countries so if that's on the table in in like the middle east yeah well that tells you it's it's going to spread it's going to spread it so yeah and and i think it's a you know we've discussed everything we need to say about this so i agree all right well listen i want let's do this again this was really fun i think people i'll put a link down to your site your courses and all your uh social media in the video down below i hope people will find you and discover you and and if they don't already know you i'm sure i mean so many people already know you um i just thought it was not necessarily to point you out to more people because i think again so many people know you but to really get to know you as a person which is very fascinating something you don't really get to see online is i'm always intrigued by the personalities of people who do what they do that's always a passion of mine so um this is a really fun chat and i think it brought to video what you and i the the connection you and i shared when we met in florida yeah thank you robert i thank you for this invitation and if if you're okay with it i'd also like to invite invite you on my platform it's really interesting stuff you mentioned we you know my audience is a lot about you know performance and dogs and and i think it would be good to also hear somebody like you who is you know very well spoken who has a ton of experience he also trained malinois working dogs any type of dog so i'd be excited to have you on my podcast also if you're willing to anytime you just tell me when i'll be there