에피소드 39: Markus Neutz

the biggest goal to reach what i think and i the idea of the satis is okay i mean on the one side it's you know it's out of this fight between the the dmc the john malinois club and and the other people and so they found or they get in this club from helmut reisel now and then you know then they start with the that it is very old you know it's that it is a very old fci program it's nothing new it was just not very common in germany it was always common in austria switzerland czech republic yeah and yeah last year you know me and maria we we were there and we showed our dogs it was a super nice competition nice stadium you know the flavor was almost like like world championship for sure right right yeah and and there were people and and it was very festive like that's for sure yes but also i think also this year you know there are so you know there's no qualification right so there are also dogs in the level you really don't want to watch all the time or whatever so it's good you know people can go there if they have all the nice atmosphere but yeah for me it's still more more worthful is the world championships the different world championships yeah i feel exactly the same i think world championship is it's the ultimate accomplishment and can nothing can nothing can replace it and on the on the golden league idea yes there is the anybody can enter i guess depending how how soon you enter and so the i guess the good side is if you're not experienced and you you don't have this super score and super dog you still get the opportunity to mingle and compete with some high high level competitors which is very inspiring to a lot of people yes for sure for sure i mean people loved it you know the handlers loved it and you know that's that's for sure and then the golden league system i don't know right now for me it's a problem but you know i talked to matthias about this already last year you know so now the first one is in the east part of germany and the two other ones are all in eastern europe you know all the golden league competition so the one is in czech republic the other one is in poland and so you know it's not worthful like for a guy from italy he will not drive two or three times all across europe to compete but then who knows there are some crazy dog people right i think if you want to make or implement the golden league system it should be more over europe like there should be one in italy maybe one in france maybe one in austria you know so there it's and and then we will see if this happens i know right now that

people from italy some of my friends from italy they think about organize uh such it golden league that's it in italy but yeah it's not so easy because on the one side we have you know the entry in italy and and then on the other side you have to touch it yes we will see yeah yeah and but i i know what you mean when when you said like you the the huge gap or difference between the quality of performances in them you know because you will have you will have some high high level and then you have a lot of people again that um you know they they clearly are are very much a big distance in in their abilities as a trainer and understanding and and it's really like this it's an interesting one i don't like the good side again is yes if you're a a new person going into the sport and you get immediately opportunity to feel like you're part of this big thing and and you get the experience to go head to toe with with like the best of the best it's amazing experience um but then watching you know so many dogs and and you know those performances like almost okay there there is not much for me to watch there right um you kind of know that's gonna be like 262 score overall at the end um so i don't know what's the solution to that but my my thing is no matter how many more uh venues we figure it out like what to have but trying not to diminish the importance of a world championship because it i i don't think it will ever work anyway uh world championships gonna be world championship i think they also make mistake like fmbb nobody's perfect right everybody's i mean there is this human factor that that we all are humans but with fmbb right now i feel that and this has been happening in the last few years opening the competition to the reserves the competition to the competition to the competition to the competition to the competition to the competition and now you have a team of like all of a sudden not even two reserves there is like a nine people team i'm like okay what happened how how that gets to be worked out and do we need to get more entries or do we or is it better actually to keep the quality to where you also allow the judges to have a crisper brain and and you know i don't know what what do you think about the the reserves at the fmbb again i mean it's a good thing for the reserve because it's super inspiring super motivating but at the same time there is some give and take right um yeah i you know i i think it's for me it's not the problem of the reserve in igp for me the fmb is the problem because you know i mean i like the world championships and i like the fmb in

the old days you know it was just igp you know right and that's why i i don't know if you see my t-shirt what is it not really 1994 the first world championship i had to dig deep to find that shirt somewhere you know okay the problem for me with the fmbb or with the malina world compared to the chairman trepards you know i mean even on the wsv world champion ship there are yeah you see dogs you know they are not good enough for world championship right right right but the community in the german trepards is much bigger and and and at the fmb it's the same there are dogs they are they have not the quality of training they have not the quality of dogs for the world championship from different countries you know exactly okay this happens but the interesting thing about is so you see all the different nations you know that's that's maybe the topic yeah but but what i think now like i'm not sure if it's true but now that people told me this was more than thousand dogs at the fmbb you know with all this different for all events yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i don't know bike gearing and this this year they had herding and rescue and rescue and rescue and this and for me this destroys you know this world championship it for me it's okay we can make you know world championship ipp we can make a world championship mondial we can make a world championship obedience and we can make a world championship it for me but all together is for me too much you know yeah i think many many uh me me included i i am 100 on your side on this i think um i think it was cool to see when they first did it one time and maybe two times but by then you have to realize that we we as as much as we appreciate the breed and all the dog sports when we go to world championship we have a very fixated mind why we are there so just because so even even as a spectator to walk around one time to see two minutes of mondial and two minutes of agility and then go back to watch whatever sport you are it is not worth it to to create so much pressure on a host country like we lately we've been kind of trashing countries um and in some maybe maybe rightfully so but at the same time the the as you said it's not this is not an easy thing to to have this huge event um and and most countries don't want to host it because they realize what's going on and they are not able and then you have country like romania that is okay we're gonna do it but we don't know what we are doing and and now we have problem and there is really it's a simple this to me it's a very simple

solution divided let's here go back to where we have the igp competition and there is a mondial ring competition and anybody that is interested seriously interested like myself i mean right now you know i train a dog for mondial ring i train a dog for igp i personally would love to have them split to where i can focus when i go to igp competition to focus on my igp competition and when i go to mondial ring competition then it's all mondial ring versus that conflict of where do i want to be what do i miss and and it doesn't make sense but there is something probably as far as income for fmbb which i highly doubt because when every time i listen to uh um what do you call it at the meeting um their financial status and everything every country and the organization they barely are able to break even and sometimes lose money so i don't think it's a good idea from from so many different angles and i hope they they change it um uh i mean starting from next year i hope they change it which i don't think they will i mean you know it's not a disrespectful meaning but for me it's a little bit like a fanboy you know world championship you know so everybody i go to the fmb and i take you know if i want to compete in a different sport level i can compete in this in this sport but you know like i don't know much about but for me like you know bike yearling and carne cross this is not there is nothing in common with igp right you know i i can say okay obedience okay we have obedience different style different part but obedience is also part of igp with mondial ring you know you know there is a combination maybe agility but actually still totally different for me but you know there is no combination between all these different sports no and i don't know maybe the idea is like the olympic games for money also but yeah but it's for me it's too big you know yes it's big in the total number i also think it's too big you know just in the igp numbers it's it's yeah i mean yeah it's too big for the structures maybe too big for the decoys the same like fci i'm i'm not sure but i guess this year there are 180 dogs in the fci world championship that's a lot for one judge and and yeah i guess the there is this conflict right between what is the world championship for is it to see the top 50 of the world going at it or is it to have 150 to where others can say i was at the world championship and both have a good like like i can i can see it from both sides but i i personally would rather have 50 or 80 dogs at the company the world championship to where when you don't make the 80 dogs you know that

you did not make the world championship versus versus somebody making a world championship team then go back home and say hey i was on the world championship team i'm a big shot i know what i'm doing and you clearly were just a participant you did not and i thought yes it's it's it's some accomplishment but but you're definitely trying to make it blow it out of proportion to where now you're uh just as good as the top 50 and and and the difference is so big and uh so i i lean more to having competitions not so much to okay well let's get more interest let's make a big event uh let's make money off of it no let's really stay focused on and allow the judges and the helpers to stay as you said like how do you judge 180 dogs like i mean i i cannot judge 30 like hats off to to any judge that could take that challenge yeah i don't know but i mean for sure there are ways you know to make it better like what i think you know like there are countries and they have probably five ip3 malinois in the whole country right so you know all five come to the world championship because that's the only one they have right and what i think what what i would like you know like you have the different countries you can make okay how many malinois with ipb titles are there or how many malinois trial in this country and you can make a key out of this this is okay this is for example germany we are still i think that the country is the most igp trials in the world it's okay you have so many trials okay you have this and this you know you have this and this members you have six members and czech republic has six members and yes you know and maybe you find a solution that there is a minimum for me it would be enough like minimum two or three from each country and you know the more you will you want to send the more price you need in your country or the more money you need in your country this would make it maybe a little bit smaller and then maybe a little bit more interesting also to watch at the end yes because it could it could be very intense when you know that this is like everybody i mean this is really the the the best of the best which world championship should be like um all right i know i know i mean you and i talk and i know many people know who you are but before we hit a lot of the the hot topics give me just briefly for the people that are not familiar with with you like judging and dmc and and accomplishments schnauzer just kind of in a in a nutshell so so people understand that there is a

what you say there there is some value it's not a just a keyboard kind of internet fighter i know with the value but you know that's yeah so yeah okay my i'm august from germany i'm in this spot since over 40 years now i had different breeds i won different nationals with three different breeds so i won nationals with a doorman so malinois and now with a schnauzer giant schnauzer um yeah touching uh i start in the late 90s i start touching in the at this time in the german malinois club and really really fast i start touching big competition so but this i don't know if i was so good or it was just because we had so less charges at this time in the german malinois club so the the first few years i think i just touched national championships and world championships and maybe one or two club trials at all so but i judged a lot i don't know yeah 15 national championships qualification fci awdf and you've done exactly exactly fmbb world champion two times yeah and yeah then i i make a break in judging made a break because out of political reasons i left the dmc the john malinois club and now since two years i'm again an fci recognized judge but in the german pincher and which is not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just not just in the time you were very much instrumental in the DMC as far as the judging. I don't know, I thought you were also the director of judges at some point. Yeah, they had judged, but you know, we were just four or five or six, so it's easy to be the director. Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. But I think in this time we were instrumental, influential a lot, you know, like... Oh, very much so. Yeah. Or even in judging, like, you know, some things like this timeframe of obedience, this is in the rule book since whenever, but nobody looked for it, you know, or preparation for the send out. I think this was all what we did in our club first, you know, and also I, in Germany, you know, I don't know about other countries, but in Germany, I think we were in front, you know, as judges. And at this time, people, some people said we are crazy because we judged very strict, you know, like, also in obedience, when this change starts from, you know, full pressure, full work to more, a little bit more positive, we start looking for this very early, like, you know, does the dog look happy, you know, is there enough speed? And I think we had a lot of influence in judging

because we were a small club, you know, we were the smallest breeding club in Germany, but we had the most success, you know, like in the VDH, AWF compared to FCI, so we were a big number of good handlers. We won a lot... We, no, not we, the... The handlers from the German Mariner Club, they won a lot of international titles, national titles. Right. So there was a big influence out of this. No, I mean, everybody needed that and actually, as you said, that was an important moment in history of the evolution of the sport, no question about it. But yeah, there is always the... when you stay long enough. And it's not just IGP, it's not just dog sport, I think it's anything, it's just humans, you know, but if you stay long enough, some of your friends will become enemies, some of your enemies will become friends. And then it's going to go back and forth. And somehow, we, you know, I understand, I mean, I'm the same way. We don't need to be all friends. It's not possible and there is no need. But the... All the little splitting, I wish that there is some better way that we can say, well, these are some things that we all care about. And instead of making a little other thing and another club and another something and keep dividing. But I don't know if that's even possible. As I said, we are all humans and we all have very strong opinions. I mean, just because we have the same hobby, you know, we don't have to be friends. You know, that's, that's normal. And, and we don't need to train the same. No. And we don't need to like necessarily each other's performances. For this we have rules. Yes, we have the rules. The rules explain what we need. Right. Do you like, do you feel like, I will tell you my take and it's, I mean, yes, we're getting into deeper into talking FMBB specifically, but, but just overall, judging and the rule book. It seems to me that somehow a lot of the, those judges, colleges and, and gatherings fail to educate judges about what the, what, what the tendencies are, how, how the, the judging is evolving and, and, and, and what do we need to, what do we, as a, what, as a whole IGP community we have decided, or have we even decided, what do we like, so everybody can start to adjust their training, you know? You know, right now, or the last two, three, four years, I think we really are at a very difficult point

point in IGP rules, judging, whatever. So let me maybe go back what I think, you know, it's like, I think, so as a handler, you know, or as handlers, we made a huge evolution the last 30 years. You know, we, I mean, the same like you, we just start, you know, full negative and then we put the positive stuff in and, and so there is a huge evolution in dog training and as, as handlers or as a handler, I can get myself educated in so many, many ways, you know, I go to seminars, I watch videos, I watch online trainings, whatever, you know, and as a judge, there is nothing, you know, you have your annual meeting, you have the annual club meeting, the annual FCI meeting, whatever, but there is no really education, right? So nothing change. And I think the handlers overtook or passed the judges the last 30 years in knowledge in their specific partner, you know, so the handles get better in training, but the judges maybe not get better in judging. That's what I think sometimes. Yeah. And, but not all judges, that's also the problem that, right. But, but if, if, if I want to educate me as a judge, you know, I have to be, you know, open, I have to take all my private time and look, okay, what can I do? So, but what can I really do? I can talk to other people, I can sing, you know, I can call somebody and we talk or we meet, whatever, but there is not really a system, you know, that's, and, and, and right now, I think, I mean, I, I talk about both sides. I'm a judge and I'm a handler and I don't say I'm the best handler, but I don't also say I'm not the best judge. Right. I think, and, but what I think now, the judges, you know, we pass the, we, the handlers pass them and now they want to get back in the pole position and take the handlers down on their level again. That's what I think right now, you know, when we talk about all this natural and stress, whatever, that's for me, you know, I really hate these discussions about this. What is natural? What is natural behavior? Nothing what we do in IGP is natural. Natural tracking is not what we want. Natural walking is not healing, no matter how the healing style looks. And, and also about this, you know, stress and this levels, I cannot judge emotions. I can judge behavior. That's what I see, but not emotions. You know, like me, I have my funny faith now, but inside, maybe I, I would like to kill the next guy, you know. True. True. I mean, there are instances where you clearly can recognize pressure and stress, right? Yes. Yeah. In tracking, for example, in tracking, you can see,

but not if a dog just tracks. If there is a mistake, then you see how the dog reacts on it, you know. Right. But just because the tail is down, that's not, not, not a proof of whatever forced training or forced tracking or uncomfortable box. And there are so many different ways that the dog shows his expressions, you know, and, and we cannot value them. That's what I think. But this is now the big discussion since a few years, or this is stress and this is stress. And, and I'm no psychologist, but I know that we all need stress to work, you know, and then they make this, you know, the difference between this positive stress and negative stress. And I think the rule book, they, at least in the German version, they talk about stress, but they don't talk about the positive stress. No? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Because, but now people use also, they don't care if it's positive or negative. Stress is stress. But I said, okay, without positive stress, we will never have an excellent in protection again. That's what I think. So, right. And, and that's right now, this big discussion I really don't like. I really don't want to follow. And, and, and, but there's got to something now. It's the rule book. The rule book is not clear. And the rule book, even the new one is not logic. Yeah. And, and, and so there is a lot of room of different interpretations from different things. And that's, I think we have to be careful that we don't, you know, that we don't go back in our level of doc training and whatever. That's what I think. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, it's a super difficult to me, you know, because, I mean, they like, like, I, I just pull it out here. I'll put it on the screen. I mean, let me see if I can do this. How do I do this? Oh, I know how. Um. I wonder if this is. There is a, man, I, why is it not letting me share this? Um. Um. Just trying to share something with you. Um. Um. I just read it. That's too stupid that I cannot figure it out. But, so like, there is this thing, a person who trains or does a dog sport, right? It's, it's, so we are looking with a method of careful training with the goal in mind to achieve the best possible harmony harmony between himself and the dog. And to convey to the dog what we want in such a way that the dog understands and, and the harmonious relationship between men and, and dog, you know, uh, it, it always kind of talks about that cooperation and harmonious relationship and stuff. And so, there is quite a few different ways. Just as we say, there's thousand roads to Rome.

And, I think this is cool because everybody can have some, I think this is how we grow. Like, if we all do the same thing, it's not, it's not gonna be even interesting. Um. But, there is a point where some of the training of IGP becomes, um, I don't know what words to even use. I, I wouldn't say fake, but mechanical, like, without a purpose or something. It's like behaviors are happening to, and they look very beautiful, but like, the meaning of why the dog is doing it is not there. Like, if you take Mondio ring, for example, or any ring sport, any behavior the dog does, there is a, a purpose, a meaning behind why we do this. And, and, yeah. I think I know what you mean. And that's what, what I think what we have right now in protection. Protection work is for me, there is, there is no meaning, you know, what the dogs are doing, you know, obedience is for me always a dressage. You know, and, and, but in protection, like, for me, one very big thing is that the, the guarding phases, you know. Right. So 50% of the dogs, I see, they make guarding out of obedience. Yes. And not out of what, what I would like natural guarding behavior, you know. So our working dogs are guarding guard dogs. So they, they guard usually, they guard the house, they guard the cattle, they guard the house. Yes. And they show behavior and, and, and, and in our protection, that's a lot of technical tricks and, and obedience now. Right. And, Right. Right. And, I, as such, I accept, you know, because if they fulfill the picture, I, I can accept, but it's not what I like to see. Well, in my dogs, I would not like to see this. You know, and, and that's what I think. And then in, in obedience, this technical part, I don't care. It's, it's like, like, you know, the healing pattern of Richard, you know, with this extreme, I don't know, what is it's lipidiano style. Yeah. Yeah. With the front legs. Yeah. I think, um, the guy, uh, the lady from California, she, she made the same. The, uh, what's Sarah? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, I, and if you see this now, many people think, oh, this is, I don't know this, I don't know. So it must be illegal, illegal. That's what I think. And then, and it's not illegal, you know, it's not illegal because I'm just too stupid to train it like this. Yes. It's like when I said, okay, Usain Bolt, he can run faster than me. So he must do something illegal. No, it's just because I'm too fat and too lazy. And, and so this is right now in the mind of so many people on the one side in, in protection, they accept a lot of technical training, a lot of circus. Yes.

And, and I accept it in obedience, obedience, you can show whatever you want, you know, as long as, as the dog fulfills the, the, the rule book, and as long you don't see poor pressure in the dog, it's okay for me. Yeah. Like, like, let's just stay in protection phase for a moment longer. I, I agree. I agree, um, the, the distinction, the difference between a dog that outs and is guarding, and guarding to me does not mean just barking continuously, but means I'm holding you, and I'm prepared to strike at any given moment. So the moment we have one out when the dog is okay, I'm ready to fight you. And then we have another one where the dog is like, no, I'm not ready to fight you now. And I'm just barking politely for a toy. And ultimately, I think this is not a problem for anybody with the knowledge we have as trainers today. But somehow, fashion in training, because, oh, this person is doing it, that must be the way. And then so many people kind of end up doing something that it's, that they know it's not the real thing. And, and, but somehow becomes the, the new fashion at the moment. Yeah. Cool. Um, yeah. So where were we? Um, yeah. Talking about protection and, uh, you know, like, sure you can, you can deviate, you can kind of sidetrack and accomplish a behavior just for the sake of the behavior. But then there is no purpose. There is no meaning behind the behavior, right? And it's easy in protection too. Why would you want to change it? Just because somebody decide, okay, this looks cool. Or maybe they had a problem with this one dog and that was their solution, whatever the reason. But somehow, amazingly, it becomes a trend. And if you're to the point that if you're not doing this, you feel that you're not going to make the points. This is the, the confusion where I think, uh, um, the judges are very much responsible to, to guide the competitors to what we need to look for and train for and prepare for. Yeah. I mean, yeah, there, you know, there are so many different pictures I can get like an excellent, you know, I, there are many different pictures and tracking and obedience and protection. Yes. And I, right now we have the discussion over the two different commands and the different behavior after the outs. Yes. Yes. It's a trend. A few years ago in Germany, I had a feeling if your dog does not know, you know, two different outs, he's not good enough. Right. Right. Yeah. And, and that's, for me, that's the part I don't like at all. You know, as a handler, I don't like at all. As a dog owner, I don't like at all.

As a judge, I can live with it, you know, if, as long as both behaviors are good. It's from my pay, you know, but that's not the highest level of protection I want. And you see it also when you watch it with open eyes, you see many mistakes in this behavior. Right. That's another, that's another very important thing to make a note of. It's very different. I mean, it's so different when you as a judge are on the field watching right here. And you can see the intention in the eyes. You can see the dog breathing. You can, you can feel the, the level of energy and intensity versus being on the, sitting somewhere on the stadium versus watching it on live stream. And, and a lot of times you have the, you know, the, the critics that are watching a video and they're replaying and zooming out and zooming in and, and I do the same. Of course I do the same, but we have to also understand that a judge and a helper and a competitor being on that moment in the field, they see something very different sometimes than what somebody on the stands or on a live stream see. Right. 96 but but you know you see the exercise and you have to recognize what what what was happening and then you put it on your trial sheet and you keep your grade and your point yeah yes and ultimately like really ultimately like i was uh um i don't know how much you followed on social media the discussions and uh arnold kivago made a made a long post about the fmbb and then there was a bunch of conversations that started i invited him to the podcast but he he was afraid that his english is not good enough and and he was on vacation but hopefully i get him so we can talk because i know i know english is not a problem we can always figure it out we're all uh but but he he had some really good points and then there were some that i i'm not sure like like for example could the judging be could the points overall be like let's say five or ten percent higher and i would say sure they can be but what was more important was were the judges at least staying consistent in what they were doing and if the judge stays consistent in a certain trial for that trial then i think uh um that's more important

uh um that's more important than than are the scores between 90 and 97 or are they between 86 and 93 sure they are very low but at the same time when i watch performances the judges i see a lot of dogs that are very mechanical and very stressed like they i i like i don't know how to explain this but i i i and i know because i compete you try to do the best you can with the knowledge that you have and there is that balance between where do you push the dog too much to get precision to where at that point now the dog is clearly you know how you were talking about yeah there is some need of stress but but then there is a lot of the dogs that they have the trainers that the dog is just not comfortable when they perform and you can feel that when you are on the field walking and watching them but you cannot feel it when you are on the stands i mean that's an obedience for for a good obedience call the obedience must be fluent you know from beginning to the end you know it must be one fluent motion for me right it's not it's not 10 exercises one after the other and one all in different sizes you know it's a fluent thing you know like the speed is always good it's not a super crazy speed but the dog is always good in speed and he's he's very comfortable in what he and that is the the clarity of what you want me to do right yeah yeah and yeah but but that's that's about the fmb about arnold's post and mia posted and different people and you know what we talked at the beginning i did not follow fmb because i had no live stream but what i saw mainly the videos you posted and some facebook videos maybe some youtube you know but overall not much and that's you know and then people there the points must go higher so i watched the two obedience from the final from mark ollie and jani you know you cannot go higher with points because all the regions mistakes i'm pretty sure you can go lower if you want with this both works you know so so you know how can you say okay we have we need more points if i give the ollie's obedience or jani's obedience to 96 you know right just because they're on the finals right yes but that's that's not not not the igp igp is a rule book and you know it's not the final it's not one against the other it's not like champions league in stockholm you know yes you win or you lose it's it's the rule yes for me there is no way to give more points that i mean these were the best two dogs or people said okay the dog on 12th place maybe he is better than the dog on first place whatever that's

what they talked i did not see you know but but you cannot go higher with points because there were clear mistakes yes yes i mean jani jani loses in the sit out of motion he loses five from five out of five point yes so i cannot give 96 that's that's not possible and i mean gosh i i i mean jan is such a very close friend to me i know he's friends with you um all is i have highest respects i talk to him like i mean as i said sometimes we are friends sometimes we are enemies but ultimately when we stay long enough we appreciate who we are and jani could have won the reason jani didn't win is he missed a seat out of motion two times he missed it in the championship and he missed it in the to the point to where and again i i i mean i i i know how jani trains i know how he feels i i i know there's like insane amount of passion and he's he's a good guy i mean he trained he comes with you and but it can go even like crazier to where if you see the dog not doing the sit the first time and then sit sit and then are down and then again it's almost like the there is something that at least for this trial is definitely a conflict in the dog and and and i'm gonna say something probably super controversial here but even to the point where some judge can say you know i can dequeue the dog because of maybe maybe that's too extreme but but you know what i'm saying like that like when you show one behavior two times with with like whoa whoa whoa whoa and then you put the dog on a down you're not you're basically not allowing at that point the judge to to come to a conclusion or am i wrong yeah that was i don't even know if he if he said down or how i don't you know i don't know yeah i think he downed them eventually because the dog was uh uh not not not willing to to separate yeah i mean many years ago we had this discussion if you use commands which are not allowed and describe the exercise they will give you you but that's too much you know that's right that's also stupid stuff nobody wants them you know if you if you show your dog in in bulgarian language i don't even know what you are talking about absolutely yeah yeah yeah but i mean for example like this exercise in the final maybe many people do not know but it's just five points but doesn't matter you know at the end the dog down so this is minus 2.5 then we had at least one additional command which is minus 1.5 in the rule book you know right and then we had the steps from the first command to the next command which is eight nine steps it's another

mistake so out of five there is nothing left you know there is nothing left even if he would sit in the second command there is not much left that's that's what many people don't know you know they just said oh that he missed the fit and he did not miss the he missed the sit but he missed the first he did he did make a few steps and then he laid down so you know it's he missed the whole exercise yes and but yeah but i know that people think there was cheating yeah you know i cannot tell you about every week because we should watch like the first 20 dogs in the world cup and then in the final then we can talk about correct correct yes what what i think okay obedience what we talked many on mistakes on both on both dogs for sure you know like like ollie bad exercises like sit down and stand and then you know like the pickups in the dumbbells right you know what we want to see and then the build up in the front in the front in the standout so there were mistakes for sure yes yes and the pickup and the presentation i you know what i i mean sorry to interrupt here keep your thought core i want you to keep going with this but i i almost feel that we are at the point where even though it's finals and we assume well everybody should know what the why we're judging this way so we're not going to give a critique we're just going to give the score i think this is a wrong idea because clearly clearly we are not ready to just get a score we need we need to hear why maybe we get there yeah but that's also one thing because of so many docs timetable you know that's also a reason why i don't like so many docs because you cannot give a critique out of out of time reasons there is right we do critique with 150 docs we need one more day and yeah and this is where it gets a little bit unfair towards the judges because he gives the points but you don't get to hear why what he what the thinking is and maybe if you were to hear it then you go back and you read maybe you agree or disagree but but like this for most people that that don't read the rule book which is 90 of the i mean i can guarantee you and i'm sure you know like if you put 100 people that do igp for 20 years and you ask them to to give you forget about grading exercise just to give you the points of each exercise they would have no idea what it is they don't know that's that's what i find out many many times when i talk to people you know they talk about points but they don't know right right how the points are dedicated to what the hell you know

and then it's like oh you like this person because no no you you clearly don't know what the rules and the criterias are so before let's talk about you know the tool docs from fmbb i don't want to talk about much about points because i did not see even the video from mark olis protection the escape and the rear attack was missing on the final i don't know yeah that was my my uh my phone the wi-fi the wi-fi up it wasn't purpose yeah so i cannot talk about the point because that's you know the only one thing i saw what what i think was the problem you see that two dogs you know behind each other or in obedience you know in the same flight and but that's not one dog against the other dog you know it's one dog in the rule book and the other dog in the rule book and and then for sure when i watch the different training training of the doctors and these are two totally different training styles yes which is interesting yes i know mark olie we are good friends since long time we train together many many years and i know yanni from you know some training we've made together when i when he worked our dogs and i saw what he's doing so it's yanni is for me right now so more this modern style of training you know with i call it always the fancy dog training and mark olie is more like okay solid in some things and for sure like people like this fancy style and then you watch this dog and this dog and this dog and then you think okay this dog was way more fancy and all stuff so it must be better right but then we have to look what what does the rule book require you know in different exercises like we take the protection of yanni like the dog is perfect in speed and in gripping behavior for me like in holding like holding bargain regarding and then what he showed in a super nice way is transition you know and he showed it on i think in the one i think it was after it's great he showed it for three four five seconds you know and i know many people train transitions because it's an important partner of the rules but it's not necessary to show it in this way to get full point yes but you know when i think okay this i like this picture so i think okay this dog is the better dog for sure or better train dog no but it's just because i like the training style more doesn't mean it's the better dog at the point at the end so i really i really don't know if you know if there was something wrong it can be but it cannot be because we don't see all our videos we had to watch right videos to give a credit to the judges or not do you here's a question do you think we are and we were clearly

a a different generation we when we started to do this the reasons we were doing it and what we tried to get out of the dog and what we wanted to see out of the dog 15 20 30 years ago was very different than where things are changing now how how much do you think um the younger generations understand that uh um more okay i'm outing but i'm ready to fuck you up right now you know what i mean i think that's there is so much influence over social media in dog training and and like we said in for me protection adoption all social natural behavior which is for me guarding guarding and striking is natural for me right and striking does not mean the long bite speed striking is the last step for me you know and and but in all the videos there is there is so much behavior created and shown that that younger generation of of dog trainers you know they forget about some natural things that's what i think right and and we see this when we do a seminar so many times like people come and say ah i want to train the two different outs okay okay if you want you can try it and then you come with the dog on the field and then the dog does not even bite you know right right you know right but but in the mind okay i have to to train this because this is what facebook shows me all the time or i need this like yanis speed in a pop which is phenomenal you know the speed but you know they forget about the pickup they forget about the presentation yes yes and yes and this is what i think that for me the basic stuff is missing a little bit in the mind of people of the handlers but this is the the i mean that that's a excellent point you're bringing and i think that's where judging overall fails to to to to guide the trainers where to focus on um yeah i mean speed but then what's the pickup speed but then what's the presentation is it well i mean the presentation of a dumbbell it's it's so freaking amazing like hey i'm giving this to you no i'm not ready to exchange something here it's a it's a different level of presentation just as out and i'm ready to get you um but how can judging improve to to like like in my opinion this whole thing right now is because we we we need to come up to first of all understanding what the rules are and what we need to accomplish

and educate the judges to be able to to educate the competitors what they need to train for um um so complicated and then getting upset you know like i man when god i i mean you and i've been in this competitions for for so fucking long i i i i i can give you two examples when i should have been the world champion without any doubt and clearly there is politics clearly there is human nature um can it be avoided i don't know probably we just we're humans just like take take fucking soccer maradona boom with the hand of god right i mean i mean what what do you do sometimes you bend the rules and they work for you sometimes they don't um the unfortunate thing is that when it really hurts is when you know that you won and you have put this is another thing like many many many people don't understand the difference between winning a world champion and being in the top five even like it there is something special that has to happen including luck including all the style stars in the universe they have to wind up for you that moment yeah and when you i think it's inevitable that um at some point somebody's gonna favor somebody a little bit but just like in in fighting in martial arts ultimately if you focus and you make your performance you don't count the well i made mistakes but he also made mistakes no if you don't make the mistakes or you make less mistakes no matter how much the judge favor somebody then it becomes a very big problem to to justify then then it's a problem right um um the four judges or two judges on one judge what's your take on this i mean you know like i don't know since when fmbb with more judges multiple touches for sure 10 years now yeah 2010 i think it started no yeah something maybe more than 10 years so now the first year with one judge but after almost all fmbbs people were talking about cheating and bad judging you know so we had four charges three chapters whatever in the field and still there was well problems with judging yeah so that's for me not the solution i really would prefer what i said one good judge is enough if he's good you know if he's good if he's fair if he's straight you know if he is not easy to manipulate from outside then it's a good judge you know

And what I could live with, maybe two good judges and they have to talk all the time each other and they find a common result at the end. You know, that's maybe for me the most fair system. That's so crazy. And they have to talk. So maybe the points will go very low because we both together on the field. I see mistakes you don't see. Yes. And you see mistakes I didn't see, you know, so maybe... Come together. Yes. We have to come together and find a solution. And there is for me no room for cheating. You know, because if you want to... If I want to cheat and you don't want, you will not follow me. Right. Yeah, I... It's a... Man, I like... Ever since we started to have more judges, I've been taking one side or the other. And I... Even today, I don't think I have a clear idea of what I would rather have. What you're saying does make a lot of sense. Like, take this last World Championship, for example. You have... Of course, the four judges come together and... If I'm one of them, I'll be curious what you got. What you got. But, at the same time, I think when you're of that caliber of judge, and all of them are... You know, they've been... It's not their first rodeo. So, I don't think any of those judges... Because of their... Even because of their ego, it's like, no, these are my points. I'm curious what your points are, but I'm not gonna change my... What I understand because of you. Like, I don't think this is happening, but many people believe that... Oh... Oh, you're giving that many points, so I'm not good enough, so I'm gonna match your points. I don't think that's happening. Do you? I don't know. Maybe in some times. I don't know. Ah... The problem is maybe that, you know... If you... We take the two judges or three judges, and you are the one who is always away from the other. You know, maybe too high, maybe too low. Maybe you will start thinking about... You know... What am I doing? Yeah. And then you will lose your straight line in judging, probably. And the four judges in FNPP, you know... I don't think that they... There is no manipulation at this point when they give the points. Maybe before. Right. The only thing... It's very easy if I take the points from all the others, you know, I can bring myself in a good light. You know, I can give the highest points because I know exactly they will cut my result off. I give the lowest points. You know, that's what I can do if I want, you know. Yeah. This is another... That's exactly the point I was gonna make, and you just hit it. I think... Like, I'm trying to put myself in the position of being one of the four judges on the field.

And let's say it's my best friend competing. It is extremely hard to judge. And even when you try not to, it's very difficult for many reasons. And I think sometimes maybe one of the four judges is like, well, I'm gonna give him 93 points when I should have given him 90 or 91. But I'm gonna give him a point or two more. But with the assumption that the other judges will give the right points and my points will get taken out, right? But then what happens when two judges decide to do that? Now it changes the game, the outcome. I mean, 2015 was an extreme example of how the Czechs handled the competition, you know? Yeah. That was one extreme I posted on Facebook and on Mia's post. And I said, I mean, at the end, Romy won, you know? But she just won because she was cheating before. Yes. Yes. Yeah, because she would have no chance to win when they keep on cheating what they did before. Yes. And, you know, for a judge, it's cheating. And now we have one judge cheating or not cheating, you know? So that's not the solution, you know? One judge, two judges, three, four judges, that's not the solution. No? For me. We need critique, that's what I think. We need critiques. Because it keeps the judge accountable. It's like, okay, you're giving these points. Tell us how. Yeah. Right? And then you can follow, you can follow the line. So you see, okay, you know, maybe in obedience, in the healing, okay, maybe the judge is not so crazy about super fancy healing style. Right. So you know exactly, okay, even this dog can make now full point in healing because the judges stay on his line. And so the small judges is not a solution for me. Very difficult problem. But there are a few things we talked about or, you know, maybe, you know, maybe it would be a solution like an obedience after each exercise, give the grade or give the points. So there is, you know, so, but for sure the points will go also lower than they are now. Out of this. Because what I always think at the end, you check your score sheet and then you decide what you want to give the dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to make out of an 88, you make a 90 because you like the work of the dog overall or you make out of a 90 88. Right. If you make the points just right after the exercise, there is no chance for this, you know, great for the total picture. And then you have going back to, okay, you're my friend and I happen to be the judge. If I have it to where it's, let's say, 94.5, I'm giving you 95.

No, no question about it. Now, if you're not my friend, I'm giving you 94. And I think we can all live with that and understand that. I think this is, this is, that's okay. But making, I tell you, I mean, I know we've talked about this so many times, but like, let's take tracking, for example. I used to always go tracking and I always find the nicest grass and nicest and, you know, training in these best conditions. And eventually I come to realize that's not going to happen. Like I start to look at the shitty spot on the field to where I'm going to lay my track because if I need to get ready, I really need to get ready. And like with martial arts, you know, you have UFC, boxing, whatever. It's like you leave it to the judges to decide or you knock the guy down and you win the fight. So when you, when you leave it to the judges, when you have so many mistakes that the judges have to decide for you, it's better that you focus on your training than continuing to blame the judges. Even if they are wrong, right? It's easy, knock out or no knock out. Right. Game over. And it's in your control. And, and I think we, if we focus on, well, let's make a routine without mistakes. Now, when the judge fucks up now, now, how, how do you justify that? Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's. You mentioned something very interesting about the, the missed opportunity after a big competition such as World Championship, regardless if it's FMBB or anything. Of, okay, let's justify the points. Let's keep, keep everybody to some level accountable. And, but I really don't think that, um, yeah, I don't know. I don't know. It was a very interesting competition. I loved it. And it's a very hard competition just being a competitor for so long. It's very different when you have four or five people trying, but then when it's just you and one more person in the championship and in the finals. I mean, you're, this is a, uh, extreme level of mental pressure on, on, as a handler, right? Cause you know exactly who you need to beat and you know what needs to happen. And it's a whole, it's amazing. Um, but as a community, I think we're extremely quick to blame and find. And find and look for, for reasons that are sometimes not there at all. And where, where, where, where do we go from here? Like we, we all want to have a fair competition. We all are, especially not, I wouldn't say all of us, but there is people that,

you, that's all, that, that's your life. You sacrifice everything. And that's what you do. And yes, just because you put so much time and so much effort and training and you sacrifice this, that doesn't mean that, okay, well, here is your trophy. No, you still have to make it happen. Um, but there is a disconnect between the rules, a lot of the judges, and then the competitors themselves not knowing. Like, I, forget about the top five in a, in a high level competition, but let's say anything under, they're training very hard. They're putting everything in there to, to, to, to do the best they can. But they lack understanding of what they need to train, what they need to show to the judge. They think this is what I need to show. But that's actually most of the time, not what as a judge you want to see. That's for me, there is one main thing. I really tried here in Germany, you know, over the German working block commission, whatever, but I'm not sure if I have success. Probably, or probably not. I think we need another rule book. And we need another, so my idea, or not, it was, it was not just mine, it was, I don't know, Michael Kötter from the BMC, we talked about this. And I think there is a big problem. We have the IGP three. And we have IGP three and you know, this like I do, we have the IGP three on club level. And we have the IGP three on world championship level. Yes. Yes. So for me, the one, one main step would be, we need, and I almost, it was not a hundred percent clear written, but I, I spent a lot of time thinking. And talking and writing stuff down. So I said, we need another IGP program. And it's called, for me, it was called IGP C like competition. So, and we said, okay, it's the same, like the same exercises, like in IGP three, you know, there is no. So if you do IGP three with your dog, you can fulfill also easily the IGP competition. But, you know, so the exercises are clear defined, charging is stricter, DQ is faster. You know, like what I said, like, for example, obedience, you're not allowed to brace the dog in the IGP competition and all this different stuff, you know. Right. That's interesting. Yeah. You know, that's what I would really like to have in the future. Yeah. That, that could be something to look into. You know what it like. Yeah. And then, you know, when we make this IGP competition, IGP three, you can educate the judges, you know, you, you, that's also a problem, at least in Germany.

We have not so much than we used to have, but we still have a lot of the judges and sometimes you have to feeling, okay, this, this judge will now judge the national championship or whatever, just because it's just time. You know, but I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. And, and, and so we get that. Okay. We have educated judges just for this IGP competition. We have educated helpers just for this. Yeah. And it would be more clear if you tell more the mistakes, you know, and then like, for example, there is just one additional command for out. You know, that's also, you know, picture that the public doesn't want to see that the dog does not out. And then people start yelling one, two, three times and you know how it. Yeah. So, and I think this would make it easier also to judge the competition. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if, but I think this would be very easy to, to install, you know, in the, in the IGP rule book. That's not a big thing, you know. Yeah. Yeah. And that, that actually, yeah. I mean, this can be, now I haven't thought of this, but that, that, that can solve quite a bit of problems that we have with, with how we judge. Um, you know, what, what you said way in the beginning of the conversation about, um, the education of the judges. And I think the, the one part that's failing is, it's not only about the points. There is much more like, like almost to the point that you need, um, in, in the judging camps, somebody with a good knowledge of general animal, animal behavior to, to kind of say, Hey, there is. Okay. Yeah. The dog may have low tail or high tail. That's not necessarily immediate putting them in a certain category. You, you, there is much more that you need to educate yourself to learn about what the dog is expressing, how the dog. And, and even when you know, it's not always easy to do, but I think this type of education is, uh, uh, missing as, as presentation in, in those judging, uh, um, big meetings to where it's not. The, the very obvious ones, they're easy. Just like when I have a litter of puppies, I know which is the best one. I know which is the, but in the middle, what do we do there? Yeah. Yeah. It's easy to judge 100 points. Right. Yeah. But it's, you know, that's what it is. As a judge, if you want to educate yourself, or if you want to get educated, you are self-responsive. You know, you, there is nothing. No. And that's, that's what I think. When I think back to the good judges, I, I know, I mean, you, you don't have to be the best handler to be a good judge. That was another thing. Yes.

What I really think you have to be surrounded by good brainer. Yeah. It's like, for example, for me, one of the very best structures I know was Hans Rüdenauer. Yeah. And what that means is you have to understand different styles of training. Yeah. Yes. Like, you know, like Hans Rüdenauer was, for me, the example. He come from, or we live very close in the same area. And then I did not know him anymore as a handler, but people told me he was a good handler back in the days. And he was also a good helper back in the days. But when I met him, he was already out of handling dogs, training dogs and being a helper. Yeah. Yeah. In every club training, he was there, you know, and in this club at this time, there were many good trainers. We had good Marinoise. We had very good successful German Shepherd. So there was a high level of training in this club. And Hans Rüdenauer was there, you know, and he watched the dogs and we talked. And then after training, we sit together and we talk about dogs. And he talked about dogs, you know. And that's what I think is you need, you don't have to be the best handler, whatever, but you need, you know, to be surrounded by good trainers. That you know there are different ways, there are different dogs. Yeah. And then that's what I think what is missing. We have judges and I am pretty sure even names in the very high level. They just step on training field the last 20 years for judging. That's what I think, you know, they travel all over the world and they go from one trial to the other. And they just judge. They have a judging career, but they have no dog training career anymore. And that doesn't mean that you train your dog, but you are in a dog training part. And this is one thing which does not happen. So, and yeah, I don't want to, you know, shout out some names now, but I know some like this. For sure, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. But no, I totally agree with the whole idea. Well, you haven't, you haven't trained a dog in 20 years. It's okay. It is okay. It is okay. If you, if you can explain what you see and you have an eye and you, you clearly can stay. You're not deviating. You're not like a roller coaster to where there is already 20 dogs who've given critiques and I cannot make sense. What do you want to see? Now we have a big problem. Um, you know, another one that always kind of, yes, everybody wants high scores, but then you give 94 to some obedience performance. And then you give the 96 for a excellent performance. And now you have only two points difference where it should be, it should be good.

At least eight points between that makes you realize, Hey, this is a different level. It's just clearly a different level. It's not that you're two points behind. It's not close. I mean, the grades are levels for sure. Right. You know, for excellent, you need an excellent dog, excellent training and excellent showing. Yes. That's a different level to a very good dog. Yes. Yes. And then it's a different level to a good dog. So, but people just look for the points and then, ah, two points and, no, but it's another level. You know, at least, I mean, obedience and protection, you need an excellent dog to get an excellent. And then we have to still come up to some collective decision. What are we doing? What is IGP? What is IGP? Is, is breeding qualities and genetic makeup, how much is important? How much the training and the, the gimmicks, the, the fake stuff is important? Or, or, like, what are we, who are we, you know? Because, um, as much as we say, well, it's a sport. What are we breeding? What are we breeding? What are we selecting? What are we breeding? What are we selecting? Then it's left to serve very few people that have experience and I, and maybe we can continue to preserve some breed. But, you can train a dog in, so let's, let's take protection, you know, you can do whatever you want. But eventually, a good helper can twitch that dog and you just see him growing. And he's like, fuck that training, let's go. And, yes, he can lose the points, but you appreciate that dog as, as a raw material at that point, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, IGP is no breeding selection. But, you know, I can use it for my breeding if I see, that's what I think, you know. It's not as, like we talk about the sport dogs and the breeding dogs, you can compete with both types. But if you watch with open eye, you see differences in the dogs. Even if they have the same point, one dog is, it's lower in the points, you see. And so you can, for me, you can use IGP as your personal selection also for breeding. But some, but some people have the, the, the, the intuition and the long experience. Take how we were talking about the, the, the French ring, the cup where you went. It's like, oh, I like that dog. Even though you don't know the, anything about points in big details and whatever, but you know very well the type of dog that hits home. And somehow, it's a really interesting point, but this is where judges, we kinda need them to, to also somehow say, well, but, and not, and I don't mean give extra points when points are not deserved, but, but we, we need to point out somehow, our own genetic material in a competition.

I, I don't know. I'm getting, yeah. So, it was easier 20 years back because you need strong dogs that they can handle all the pressure. Right, right. Yes. They, they handle the pressure from the handlers. They handle the pressure from the decoys. And so it was a little bit easier and it was for sure more, the question of quality than today because the dog training changed in a good way. you know, and so even with the average or low average dog, you can sport high, high, high points now, which is okay because we talk about sport. Right. Right. Right. But what I always think, especially if you are very close, if you are the judge, there is more than just, you know, watching. There's also a feeling in protection. Yes. Yes. You know, it's just okay. Okay, barking. Wow, wow, wow. Okay, excellent. Now, up with grip. Nice transition. Now, out. Excellent. You know, there is more than this. And you can see, you know, but it's not the job to select in this, for breeding in this, in this conversation. Right. Right. It's kind of how, what was, like that famous Mike Tyson saying, like, everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face. And same with protection. Right. You can, you can train, you can train. But then you get that stick hit. You get that eye contact from the helper. And now you bring the dog's raw nature. And you can see, what do we have? Now we can balance how much training and how much quality, innate qualities we have. And this becomes more and more difficult for a judge to do. Yeah. Problem is also, I think, like, we talk about protection, like the rules, you know, it must be equal for all. You know? So, like, the helpers must be equal for all. So they have to run from this point to this point. Yeah. And then go back to this point and do this many steps for this, you know? And, and. You know, we all talk about. Yes, we need the serious dogs. We need the real dog. And many people talk about this. And for sure, if we take a helper in a big competition who is not equal because now he knows exactly. Okay, I make one step more. I tell me one more time and then the dog is gone. I'm sure the audience will kill you. That kind of goes back to how the DMC Kjorung was in the beginning to where you had more freedom to, because of that specific dog, to really evaluate it. But then people didn't understand that. They said, no, let's do everything the same. And now. Yeah. That was even on the, on our Kjorung system. This was one of the main problems we had. Yeah. You worked my dog in another way than this dog. Right. Yeah. Because your dog was weak in this path. Exactly. Exactly.

And the other dog was, in the first second he bit the sleeve. I know exactly no matter what I will do now, he will stay. Yes. And, and, yeah, people always, you know, cry for, yeah, we need this and this and this and we need strong dogs. But they all want to be treated equal in this situation. I, I mean, I can always shout out, I want a very strong dog. And I want to, but I want to be the, the helper should be equal, equal to my dog than to the others. And if he makes one step more, I will kill him. That's, that's, that's what people do, you know. And there is a big difference between what I say and what I want and what I really do. Yeah. Man, I don't know where do we go from here. I wish we somehow, everybody sits down and comes down and we, we have a, we, we kind of clear some path forward. Because we, we really need that path forward. Like, like people need to, there is people that are having puppies right now, that they're training puppies in a specific way. Without understanding the rules, without understanding what judges want. When the judges don't know, the judges contradicting each other. And, oof, it's, it's, it's so hard. But there's gotta be solution. Yeah. Yeah. But, but first of all, we need a good rule book. That's what I think, you know, and even with the exercise we, we have now, we have to describe them better. We have to say what we exactly want. So, if you're not capable of doing this. Then it must be logic. Like, for example, now they all talk about this divided exercises. And that's not logic to me. You know, like, just take the retreath over the mean of jumping. So, it's divided in five just for the dumbbell work. And 2.5 for the jumps. You know, but if my dog does not bring the dumbbell, it's minus 15. that's not logic right you know that's not logic that's that's so they divided in five five five but if it doesn't do one it's 15 you know all the same with with with down down and recall you know we have five for the main part which is downing coming in front and the rest is five for build up and whatever you know but if my dog does not do the down it's minus five that's also not logic right because I still have the recall and I you know so and you're leaving it now to individual judges to to to to make a decision how they want to go and and and I I tell I mean for everybody that's listening like I you know I think like my my honest opinion of that that FMBB was that you know the scores were the scores were low because there was plenty of points in every performance to be taken out and you cannot not take those points out because if you if you tolerate and you

give this higher points then you become it's becoming a Christmas and and there is it changes what the competition is about really um so when when when we say well the point should be much higher in this competition but when you watch the competition and this is the part that really sucks that we don't have videos but every time I watch a dog I mean there is there are so many big obvious points that are lost that you cannot give higher you should like if you give higher points it's it's wrong in all levels you know um but that's maybe a little bit of mentality you know of the handle and this is also for me you know like you know this this this reaching for points I want to take highest point and and this would also go back to do to do to this IGP 3 and IGP competition right okay I can make my 299 in IGP 3 they don't count much no that's just 299 in a lower level such competition no and but on the one side I understand people that they want to point but like me if we compete in the same competition I want to be better than you you know yeah I want to go in the first place and you can go to the second place that's that's our goal for sure you know and I don't care about the points you know I think it's important to have also um how I mean the judges camp or whatever we call it that needs to that needs to get better and I'm sure they're trying but it has to get better it's not just points but also unless we find a way to reach to the competitors and say hey this is like what you're training right now it's not what the judge wants to see it's not what the rule books wants to see you can make it really nice but that's not what's about and and you know gosh I mean even like you have you know a primary and secondary part in each exercise like there is some parts that have incredible value and there is parts that can have mistake but they are a different level of mistakes but right but most competitors when I say this most competitor this goes over their head they have no idea what I just said yeah but it's also it's not described in a proper way that's what I think you know right right right right right and then like like what people you know what you said it's not you train and it looks good to you and that does not mean that you get the full point for it because you think that's what the judge wants to see and that's not what the judge wants to see but also what you trained you remember this one video from this book stand out of motion jumping right yes for sure it's funny but it's not correct you know right right

I'm not even sure if the handle like the way the dog did it but maybe he had no other chance than to accept but but that's not yes I mean I must understand if my dog will show this I will lose points no matter what the audience is saying and all that's not how many people are clapping right and on top of that if if for that trainer and that dog that's the the best option go ahead go ahead of course but then you have to live with the points you deserve in this moment correct yeah yeah yeah they're wrong some ways you know I mean and we I think it's time to stop this um okay well the Germans had their competition they won now the Czechs have their competition so they gonna then this the bell like like at some point we need to level it level it out and and start to be all together as a and start to be all together as a community very fair to each other because we are all in the same I don't think it's a fucking matter of a country and thing like sure yeah I'm I'm from United States or yeah but we're doing we are all in the same thing like like country and and oh let's let's use this as an advantage we we need to somehow at some point say you know what let's just try the best we can and even when the host country when when somebody's hosting next year they have to try harder to show guys we are trying very hard to be fair yeah but I mean the fairness in the sport starts with the judges for sure right right you know we can we can be fair as we want as a handler or trainer as long as we don't get the fair result right right and what is amazing is there is so many I mean a reading all sorts of people reading all sorts of posts getting all sorts of private messages and and sometimes I get judges and they're like oh yeah this is so upsetting and I'm thinking and I'm thinking to myself man do I what happens if I actually directly tell you that you really fucked up a championship because you were one of those judges that you were extremely biased at some point and you know we gotta look at each other in yourself in the mirror and it's like well have I really been every time consistent and I didn't sure there is the competition and of course we go out we have a drink since like well I gave him 96 in tracking because I like him like what the fuck why like why like why you can still like the guy I mean one thing is for sure if I judge if I judge and my friend or my enemy compete he gets exactly the point I'm gonna give him in this situation

and you know and after that there is no room for excuses you know because exactly you get the point I want to give him and the same is on the big competitions like take FNBB FCI World Championship whatever the judges the most of them are deep enough in the sport they know exactly okay like FCI there are maybe 10 15 people who can win right and all the judges on the field know this 10 or 15 people before the competition start of course maybe they know so no person not personal but they know by name they know Ivan Balabanov is coming he has a chance to win and in this situation you know when you are on the field you know you know all points you get the judge gives you by purpose there is no accident happening you know accident right happens by you know some guy from you know yes no no no no no 87 and 92 sure okay okay okay that's one thing for sure you know you know you know so nobody can tell me after big competition ah this was an accident that's a poor lie nothing else you know and this is maybe something we have to find a system that we can tell this to a judge you know also one thing we talked about it you know after that maybe it's it's it's one thing to make an evaluation after the competition for the judges for the judges so yes the competition finishes sunday closing ceremony is done next morning we meet again there is a commission and the charge from tracking obedience and protection they have to come and then we talk about some special things yeah and then i'm sure if i if i'm an obvious cheeto you know and i know exactly i have to prove my points again after competition this makes me very uncomfortable especially when you know that that's coming right yes that's coming you know when you know exactly okay the day after i have to do it again and tell the commission okay that's why i did it and they asked pretty good questions to me that that makes me very uncomfortable and maybe this keeps the one or the other judge away from cheating i don't know and but also you could use this to educate and so my idea is okay now we have the three touches from this year and monday we make you know like evaluation education and we take the three touches from next year in the same group you know that's that's maybe also one thing we could think about the only problem is who is in the commission that's always going to be a problem too yeah true and for me that's not the commission you know it's not necessary that there are such chapters right we can find some good handler right you know successful trainers

yeah that i think that came quite a few times over the last years to where there should be uh uh a competitors kind of committee that that interacts with the judges to some level too i think it it's not a bad idea at all yeah and this this this does not happen right now with the rule book changing you know i'm sure that for sure there are judges they are both competitors and judges but i'm sure nobody asks the good competitors in their country about right ideas about new rules whatever you know and and and it's not just the judges responsibility you know what happens on the field it's also the handle yes i mean ultimately it is for everything is for the handlers right and and maybe that's also a thing that you should accept as a judge or as a helper you are not the main person in the game you know you are just a service worker you know you are right there that right this competition can take part and you know it can go on you are not the main person the main persons are the competitors and the dogs and then there are other charges and the helpers right and and this is also maybe a thing that which change i think especially in the help of it changed a lot that there are many people they just start a helper career and no dog training career you know oh yeah that's another you know and it's not that it's not possible like oh it's it's it's not the problem but yeah you know you should you should always exact know the place you where you are and right you are not the main person the main person is it's not about you it's not about you yeah i mean if you don't want to go we take you out and we place another one yeah but if no competitors come the right is empty and yeah maybe that's you know all in this judge's education thing that we should think about that you know we are not yeah overall as a judge we are just there to watch the world and analyze and criticize and find the right ranking that's our job it's difficult yeah yeah i think there are chances you know to to to get better right i mean talking about the fmbb especially now that you know kind of clearing my head talking with you i mean the one thing that clearly needs to change is let's just have igp world championship let's let's do that and let's focus on not how many participants we're gonna have but how many of the top handlers in the world we can get in the competition because that's a big difference already then give the critiques like give your points and justify your points you can look at each other's score sheets you can whatever but tell me

how you saw the performance because that's good that's education on its own for for somebody's oh i'm i need to get ready for next year what are they looking for what because when they say well you got 93 points well why now you're leaving it up to me to decide and i may go off-road having very different ideas of why the 93 points came and and maybe it was just a long down you know exactly exactly yes yes and you change your whole system oh right i mean i think critique is important and so we i mean for me it's easy to talk about fmb because i will have no money anymore and i will never compete at fmb but i think even as a spectator it's not interesting for me this many dogs that's what i think and so critique is one thing but with for critique we need more time that means not more days because i mean you know exactly stop training and showing talks is really a hobby with you need to spend a lot of time a lot of money right for it and not everybody can afford maybe you go to your breed world championship then you go maybe if you have luck with the fdi world championship and you can maybe to the national championship so we don't need more days it's already enough how much we have to spend on this this means less participants and then i think we could found a solution you know what what we talked in the beginning that each country has minimum three and can go up to six seven or eight depending on whatever we will find in this yeah and and then the critique and then the critique like i don't know how it is in the us but in germany sometimes right now the critics left longer than the showing because they talk so much the judge decides to give a mini seminar of how he will train something yeah and like like for example but what i always say i don't want to critique what my dog was doing good you know so i don't want to critique like your dog was great and focused in basic positions that's the first i mean i expect my dog to be straight and focused in basic positions for me it's necessary that they tell me okay he was maybe not great and i did not see or he was not focused right right the critique is i mean of course you need just like with dog training you need to praise the dog but unless you point out what needs to change you're leaving it up to the handler to be ziova okay well you know but but you know like it's not a negative critique but tell me what my dog did not do good or what i did not do good maybe i did not count my paces or i did this as a handler whatever you know that's important

information and if there is something you know super extraordinary then you can tell oh this was now i don't know the fastest recall i ever saw yeah yeah yeah yeah all those things there is no need to tell that's what i think and then you can also cut off the time of the critique if you do it like this again like it was 15 years ago nobody talked about you know what was normal i guess there is this there is this thing about trying to attract more people to the sport and and i get that and it is important it's really important to attract you know young people and our sport is competing with the present day of the day of internet and and and and everything else so it's not easy to one like i am the more i think about it the more i'm like yeah maybe we do need that competition versus club level of uh judging as you're saying because um um that that can be a better option uh okay yes we can attract people or but then there is the compete the real competition this is this is like i i need to know what i need to do so i can come out next championship you can attract the people in the basic you know in the club you can say hey it's easy this we can do boom boom boom maybe also in the club in the igp one two three you know there is no no failure you know it's not that you need 220 points or 210 points to go in the next level maybe you can say okay yeah if you make this point you can go from direct from one to two if you make two times this point you can go or whatever you know there there is a lot of room to to make it more interesting for beginners but you know the normal beginner he will not go buy a dog and and he will not say okay i want to become the next world champion that's not normal you know and many people don't want to anyway so and then you have the world championship which is the champions league or the super bowl and and that's a different level to them what i do and i can accept it's different level but it's also i know exactly just because the winner has 282 points and i had 295 in my class right there is still a big difference between this dog and this training and my dog and my training yeah and then i'm not disappointed if i get if i go on a normal lower level competition and i i end up with 241 because i know there is a difference in the in the in the in the competition or in the rules and then there are yeah many things we can talk about or we can make it more attractive well well outside right and especially when we're talking world championship you know that like like

this top 50 people they're they're out of their mind they're they're exceptional they will lose their wives or husbands they will they will fucking sacrifice anything to accomplish something it's like a lot it's it's it's incredible amount and even the difference as i keep saying between being a world champion and being three times fifth place even even there there is a difference that it's acknowledged because you get this title and a lot of times the title doesn't again like i like personally i i have won two world championships i think not that i didn't deserve this or deserve but i think there were two other times in my career with different dogs that i was more i i more world championship if i can say that like that you know done done when i did it and it sucks to to be at the place where you know that you won and every not everybody but most of the people like hey you won but most of the people do they really understand or they're going by emotion and friendship and not understanding the rules this is where the education that we don't have as a community yeah and what we said starts with the chapter you know and and maybe it's also difficult for some churches let me say that the fmb system for example that's also what i think you know now the last stock is coming off the competition and you know exactly okay this stock needs 95 to be point in the house yeah yeah it's all 94 this second and you see this i'm sure when we go back and watch different competitions you know like we have the fmbp system with the finals but many times you have the last rock of the competition like female indeed or you know it's it's the latter but he's still in the in the point or in the in the in the place to win the competition and then you can see this many times the judges stop judging in this situation right they just think about world champion or no world champion and it's really you know like in the fbb if it's a close decision before when you watch it's always always just one point at the end or the same is with the female in heat you know it's always one point or maybe two points maximum you know but but that's for me that's they stopped judging you know they said okay i know 96 world champion 94 second place so and then you don't even think about 88 or 99 you know you just think about these two points to make him win when it goes yeah yeah and and and and that's not that's for me that's not cheating that's maybe yeah it's also a pressure on you oh it must be incredible i don't want to be that judge i

can tell you that yeah and and this also happens so maybe the fmbp system itself with the final at the end is not super perfect for for for judging right no i mean it it proved yeah it proved in in since 2010 it proved plenty of times that four judges can still not uh uh they still can not uh uh uh give make make the the dog that in the team that is the better like it it it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't make difference it's unfortunate because logically you think okay yeah it should but it doesn't yeah yeah but maybe it's also because it's for some people too much pressure um and also you know to make this comfortable or uncomfortable decision in one second you know this this also puts people under pressure so because it's not about how much point it's about world champion or not world champion yeah interesting point and yeah so sometimes when we talk about cheating that you know our beginning topic yeah sometimes there is cheating for sure yeah i i can tell you examples i know exactly this was cheating you know if you know the things behind you know like the story yes of course the story behind and then yeah okay no and but also many times for me there is the audience thing it was cheating but i think no it was just you know not obvious cheating it was just maybe too much pressure or or maybe audience does not know what's the rule book what's in the rule books and handles you know that's it's not for sure there are judges they cheat i know but there are also many judges they are really not able to stay straight because they are not mentally good enough or not good enough educated or they don't judge on this high level they are not used to so many dogs on this high level or whatever you know so i think that this is where we have to start to take and renovate the system man talking so much it's a interesting conversation i'm so happy to talk about this and we could have had this private phone call but it's interesting for people to hear just a random thought and I don't like I cannot hopefully it is clear that I'm not taking any sides I am just frustrated that we need to find a solution to this and I don't have it and but I think conversations like this is what's gonna really make hopefully make a difference that yeah it is very very hard to go by emotions

and I've been like again I mean I've done this sport for forever like just looking at my things here there's been ups and downs there being fair judgments there being fair judgments and we cannot avoid it that like we cannot avoid that but we can do better by first of all educating the judges and educating the handlers what they what do we need to see because and we probably need to come first of all to an agreement what the fuck do we really want to see and if if we see it done this way and this way it could be that both ways are okay it doesn't have to be only a certain way right that's that's for me always in obedience you know like hundred points it's not the maximum of dog training you know like talk about the dumbbells to get 10 out of 10 it's not a question about maximum speed right even okay we go back to Yanis dogs if the pickup would be perfect we have this phenomenal speed and he will get 10 out of 10 points but that's not required for 10 out of 10 right right you know then we go back to both dogs we go back to Ollie's dog he has not the same speed but the speed is fast enough right right you know and he will get also 10 out of 10 points for this exercise and this is no and this is maybe the thing you know that that when you just compare one dog to the other this does not give you the right picture about IGP you know yeah there is always a dog who is faster or I don't know more focused or faster in protection but but you know 100 does not mean I need the fastest out of in the world only the fastest sample in the world I can get full points in many different ways you know because ultimately you need the the clarity the understanding what I'm what I'm as a dog what I need to do then the you need the absolutely you need the animation and the clarity but the animation and clarity is not always judged by the speed that's kind of what you're trying to say and and I think most of high level competitors agree on that but we are stuck in this thing about speed because the the how do I say this the not so competent judges focus on the speed primarily and then of course as a trainer what do you do you also focus on the speed primarily yeah yeah and then yeah speed is a good example because with speed you can

make a wrong picture to the judge right and and on to top to top this off you can create speed by pressure and you can create speed by positive motivation too right yeah yeah but you're focusing only on the speed as the the main factor and you can use That's not all. Yes. Yeah, but that's, yeah. Speed is a good example, what I said. Like the dumbbell is for me the perfect example. With high, high speed, you hide many mistakes at the end. You know, like when you watch different obedience works and different, in competition, different obedience, and then there are these super high speed dumbbells. But there is almost no dog who makes nice presentation, you know, give the dumbbell away in a nice way, and then can wait three seconds to go in basic position. But with this type of work, usually you get more points than with a little bit, lack of speed, but technical perfect training. Right. And I prefer the technical perfect strength dog for myself. That's also part of my training, but it does not work with all my dogs. But in my training, that's for me more important, you know, that I say, okay, my dog makes nice presentation, and then I take the dumbbell, and he waits an hour, then he has to go back, and then he has to relax and wait. But with speed, you can hide a little bit all the mistakes, because at the end you get points. And that's where we need to, just like how you said, well, for you as a judge, or for somebody else as a judge, or me as a competitor, and somebody else as a competitor. And this is where we really need to kind of all come together. It's like, okay, let's hash this out. Let's discuss it. Let's have arguments and decide. And then bring it back to the dog training community so they know what to train. Man, it's so complicated. I wish we can sit down and have this, like, okay, let's change it and let's make it better. But I don't see how. Yeah, I think you have to start in your own heart. You can do it. Like, I mean, like FMBB, you are still part of FMBB. I think you still have influence over the AWMA, and like, you know, you saw MIA, and MIA is a very important person in the FMBB, in my opinion. And she has a lot of influence, you know. And for sure, she's one of the most known handlers with Malinois in the world. And, you know, she should have a very strong fan base behind her. And, yeah, I think, yeah, there is, you know, the way to start. We will not change the general system at all. Yeah. Like, we changed it in the DMC at the beginning, for sure. That's what you said. We changed just our thing in the DMC, the German Malinois Club. We started judging in a different way.

We started, you know, doing helper work, maybe in a different way. And in this small little group, I think we started a lot of changes we have now in the whole world. Yeah. And the general thing is too big. And also, it's probably the FCI is too big. And the FCI is not very interested in working dog protection dog. That's for sure. That there is no question about that. That they don't, I don't think they even care to defend what we do in a public. Like, yeah, FCI is a very strange one. Forget about, like, I have a whole different thing about FCI, especially with how non-FCI countries compete. Like me being from USA, like last year or two years ago, whenever the team wins the first place, but okay, we give it to the FCI country. It's like, what are we doing? Like, really, just because there is the big politics and the money about making pedigrees and the fights. Why do we need to submit to that machine and not appreciate each other for our accomplishments? Like, if I cannot imagine me being from some European country and somebody beats me from Australia, that is, I don't know if they are FCI or no, and then I'm the world champion. And I'll be like, I'll be, no. Like, no. I am not the world champion. That was a very strange thing for me. Do I remember? Because I said, well, what happened now? But then, okay, USA is not a member of FCI, but that's very strange. You cannot win. I was just asking myself and wondering, you know, what about the FCI single world champion? Right. I mean, why are you all FCI single world champion? If you are a member of FCI. Right. So that was for me, okay, so why they take away the team title, but they don't care about FCI or Fabian or, you know. I would not be surprised if they got 20 years back and be like, oh, yeah, let's take care. Maybe now they will come because they did not think about it. Maybe you get a call tomorrow. Right, right. And instead trying to think, well, how can we keep this dog sport community together and not create these silly conflicts that have no reason? We have plenty of conflicts. Why FCI cannot just say, you know what, this competition is not strictly an FCI competition or come up with some rule, but you cannot. Like, it's the most ridiculous thing. Like, I absolutely would be ashamed to get a trophy when I know that I got my ass kicked, whatever the sport is. I mean, this is like a mind-blowing. It is so disrespectful for, like, or you say, you know what,

you guys are not allowed to compete here. But then don't call it world championship. Like, make up your mind, but what you're trying to do because of the ultimate politics of the FCI machine and trying, no, just because you're penalizing American team or whatever team that's not FCI country, that's not going to make AKC become FCI compliant. This is a whole different war. I mean, we need an organization, you know, for sure. But if the FCI is the right one, I don't think so. Because, but I understand also that there's a side of FCI, you know, for the FCI, for the protection sport is a problem child, not more right. Right. Right. You know, because, I mean, okay, now, I don't know how the rest, now in Germany we have more problems with the animal abusive stuff law, animal protection law with the breeds, you know, like the franchise and whatever, you know. So they have problems in this part too, but at the end, if there is always this discussion about dog training, it's most time about protection for dog training. So if I would be the chief of FCI, I would try to get rid of this sport too. You know, it doesn't help me. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Especially when you're running a business, which FCI is a business. Yes. And you see this at the WUSV, you know, even if the German Shepherd is a very successful in good sport dog, but the main money comes out of breeding. And, and this is not like 50 or 40 or 30 years ago that, that the only reason to sell German Shepherd is the capability to work. You know, that nobody in the show line, you know. I think it's really interested in IGP-3 titles. it's, it's, for them it's a must and it's okay and they can do it. But, but, you know, the main part is breeding and not training and showing competition. Pedigree. Yes. Yes. Pedigree. And that's the same with FCI. So, so we are such a small part of FCI. You know, I think worldwide, I have no idea all the IGP trainers worldwide in the FCI. I'm not sure if it's even 1% of the membership. Oh, I agree. Yeah, yeah. For, no question. So, and, so what would I would do if I have amount of people under me and there's always one who causes me a pain in the head, you know, I would kick him out or for sure I would not support him. Yeah. And, and then that's, yeah, maybe that's also a reason, you know, that we, yes, we have, we are in the middle, you know. there is the FCI main and, and, and all the, the judges and all the, the organizations, you know, they are in the middle level of FCI and the, and the competitors are in the lower level of FCI, you know, so there is a, so there is pressure from the lower level to the middle level and there is pressure from the high level to the, to the middle level, but pressure in the

form that they do nothing for this level. Yeah. Yeah. And, yes, I don't know if it's a chance to create an organization, you know, worldwide organization for, yeah, working docs, whatever, you know, I, but. Yes, because it's, all of us understand how much work it entails to, to form a new thing and, and, I mean, there is, you, you need a serious manpower to, to start something. And then there is the step, you know, between professional and non-professional. And you see this now with, with Matthias working talk. He, he sent me the information now, why, why there are no videos from FNB. Yes. He said, okay, the FNB wants too much money from him. And, you know, I mean, he's a businessman, he has to look, yes, it must be economical, okay for him, that it was, for him, just not possible to fulfill what they want, so there are no videos. And, which I'm sure this is a very, like, I don't want to be in his shoes too because, I don't know what I would do because I, you know, I mean, you know, there is the conflict between whatever, FNB and him and some individuals and whatever, you know, Edgar. But then, I am sure he knew that making that decision hurt the whole IGP world at the same time. And, and these are the kind of decisions that you, as a person, you have to make and, and that's what he decided and, and you got to respect it to some ways. It's his, you know. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, I, I believe it was a very personal decision, you know, from FNB on the one side and, and, but now I'm pretty sure like, like, entry off of this live stream. What do you think how many people bought this live stream? I don't know. Not many. Yeah. Yeah. There were so many, it was difficult to find where you can get the live stream. I know. The crazy thing is, I, I bought it and I probably watched four, maybe actually three performances during the championship and at the end I watched the, the Oli and, and Yanis perform. That's all I did with the, keeping my fingers crossed that later I can go back and, and sit down and have fun watching and, and, that was, that was upsetting. that they would have made more money with working doctors. Right. I mean, I don't know the live stream, how many people, I don't know, not more than, I'm sure not more than thousands worldwide bought live stream. Probably, I agree. But this is also the, the, the big thing as we were talking way earlier in the conversation to where, I mean, we can like each other and then we don't like each other and maybe in 10 years we are back to liking each other. But somehow, unless we all as a community start to

maintain the, the focus on not destroying the, the bigger objection, the bigger goal of what the community is and still don't like each other and still make friends and make enemies and go back and forth, but, but somehow maintain this direction where we are going because, I don't know, maybe I'm too old now to where I, I didn't, there were times in my life, I'm like, fuck that, you know, go away, we're done. And, but that's not the right way. And I'm not saying we have to be all friends. There's absolutely no reason for all of us to be friends. Like, why? Right? Yeah. Just, we watch all soccer, we are no friends, huh? Exactly right. Yes. Yes. It takes, it takes a couple of weeks to cool down and get back to, yeah. I don't know, I think, you don't know the situation like in Europe right now because in, in, in your country or in USA now, it's, it's also normal to make the sport as a professional. True. And, not as a professional handler, but, you know, I know, I mean, many people in the, in the United States live from doctrine. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, since many, many years and in, in Europe this first started, you know, I don't know, 15 years ago maybe, and still not so many people do it and, but there, there is still this, you know, ah, and, you know, these are professionals and, and, you know, there is this jealousy also behind you, you know, like, okay, he's professional dog trainer and he makes money and he has time the whole day to train and, you know, and the same as his working dog, he makes money with dog training and videos and whatever and, and, and, if the sport still exists in 20 years I'm sure this is not a topic anymore because it will become also more and more professional or business side than, yeah, I hope, I hope so but, you know, what is interesting even in the states even in the AWMA the Malino club you still have people including in the executive board where they genuinely dislike people that are professionals not understanding that for me to become professional I, it's not like, oh yeah, I'm going to be professional and I'm going to just make a lot of money of dog training and I get to train no, I'm actually really taking an incredible risk of what I'm going to have for dinner tomorrow because I've chosen to become a professional dog trainer and you have your nine to five job and you have secure income and secure pension and everything and you are a hobby dog trainer but I don't

think we need to compare it like this everybody has a choice and choosing to be a professional dog trainer it has a lot of risk it has a lot of it it's not all rainbows and unicorns you fucking don't don't know when it's Sunday you don't know when it's 8pm you you're in you know training dogs and eventually comes time to train your own dog and you're exhausted and you look at your dog ready to go and you're like sorry buddy but can't do it today yeah that's what people don't see I mean you know I'm I'm professional dog trainer too but you know not not not on my own I'm employer of the state right so my job is to train dogs every day you know from 8 to 6 or 8 to 4 whatever you know so we train and train and train and train and then this happens to me too that I so sometimes I'm not in the best mood you know to train my own dog but right and yeah but that's in in Europe or I mean in Germany I think it's really there is this jealousy you know still existing oh this guy makes money right let's let's quash him yes whatever hopefully hopefully conversations like this like instead of constantly pointing fingers because and and always be unhappy I think it's good to point fingers it's good to be unhappy but we we have to find ways to to move forward from this and and I will say it again it starts by because I I read so many comments so many different Facebook and whatever social media things about this particular FMVB and and a lot it's based on emotions but mostly based on lack of understanding the rules yeah yeah I talked to Matias you years months I don't know ago about a webinar for handle yeah yeah like like a meeting yes you know okay we do like when we do a meeting we watch different videos and then you have one who moderates all the stuff and he says okay look people this this and this this this is acceptable behavior this is not so good you know that that would be brilliant yeah I think this would be a good idea you know for many no that that would be not a good idea this is like a must have to happen like I mean that's like out of everything we have talked about that's probably where we need to start is you can organize we do yeah because what how does it work right now you have the judges meeting and then the church from the country comes back and makes a presentation of their version of what the meeting was which already is their own representation and then there is handful of people that actually get that

and the majority of people that train dogs they don't know any of it they continue to do the wrong things because they think that's what the judge would really go wow this is so cool maybe with bad luck at the next competition they know what happened but I would really I think also the handlers they should know what's good what's point dedicated what can I dedicate to this and this I think this would be an interesting part to do that would be I hope you guys I mean I hope you get in that and I mean this is like it just makes sense like it has to happen it has to happen because it will eliminate the conversation like right now as I said like I'm reading all sorts of different posts on Facebook and oh I'm so upset and whatever and we need fairness and we need to replace the judges and it's like do you know how do you judge an exercise and how what categories and do you have any idea you don't so sit down and be quiet until you have something to say that is a value goal yeah yeah maybe we can try to create something like this go for it it's really a problem that many really good handlers don't know like for example until it's better now but like you know healing right and and for the most handlers healing what's finished after healing right right right that sit out of motion yes very true yeah and and and really good handlers you know not beginners in the club yeah yeah yeah good handlers or yeah there are so many examples like you know like good handlers don't know the rules or what you know the points or but that's also a question because it's not described you cannot read you know in the very old rule books it was better you had this for the for the judges this book and the rule book so you could read both and then you know more what they expect from you and your dog ! it is interesting you know time now for read you know maybe time for webinar videos whatever yes very much so that's a brilliant idea very much so because I mean even even a high level competitor somehow intuitively they can give a very close score to the total score but they cannot say how that happened and that's important overall picture you can look yes that's what we always call the the fence structure you know I can stand and defend right and then I look the dog and overall I look the dog and I think I had this 191 right right and that's

easy you know and most times I'm right and this is a very false feeling for a competitor or anybody that trains because you kind of know even though you are close to the score or maybe you gave exactly the same score as a judge you really don't understand how that happened yeah but this was interesting for me when I was head judge or when when I was judging at the DMC and we saw you know these judges meetings in the club so we judged different dogs and then we had different values on mistakes right in this small group five six people different values on some mistakes but overall well you we were pretty close yeah yeah yeah yeah that's a that's a good good place to move from yeah yeah no and and this is also you know what people don't know that not not each judge has the same eye for this and for this but in the overall they must be close that's you know that's yeah I don't know how to explain but yeah like like for me sit out of motion maybe I could live with a little bit a slower sit than another touch you know right but but therefore I want more you know focus or expression in build up and there is at the end not so much difference in this but but you know all these different mistakes is not that's what's important that handles know that this this and this and this is not right and this can cause you know point addiction you know that okay your dog is doing this this may cost you point ! this ! may cost the point yes and it it could cost points it's not that you know it's with all judges the same that's also one thing but but for high level we should be in the same area at the end high level yeah yeah and then man it just it it it puts us in such a crazy situation you know like competitions and the judge decides to one so the winner one is not the winner and the one is your really close friend and you train together and you really believe that they should be the champion but they are not and this happens all the time and there is a way forward I hope I hope we we we we find that hopefully this is useful for everybody what we are talking I don't know I mean we're just I don't I think there is some interesting points very actually valuable points and again like I'm sure I'm sure many people who do you think won who was the real world champion I it's like why would you put me in this place I I have my opinion but that doesn't mean that that is the right opinion

that should be left to the judges and should be you know like we we have to learn from what goes wrong and improve instead of okay well this went wrong this way now let's see what happens next where we may we're gonna make it wrong but it's gonna be benefiting this way it's like no that's we've done this for so many years that's not the right way to do it Yeah! Yeah! cool man I think we leave it here I will be curious to hear like everybody's comments when we pause the podcast because we can start some conversations and we can lead some you know I know people will agree and disagree with us and that's totally okay that's it should be that way yeah yeah that's okay you know you should be able to live with critique that's what I think you know but the main thing is not to not to get into the point well we got fucked let's now see how we can no let's see how we can really create what like the best possible option to be an honest competition but educate ourselves first and then decide what we want instead of oh well this judge or this competitor or this like this this is based on emotions and again like I just as you we we have felt we've been on both sides at one point on another it's part of competition too you you gotta kind of you know like it or not you gotta take the good and the bad of competition any competition right yeah but I mean that's you know like the critique and that was for me as a judge I don't know maybe I for sure there were big mistakes in all my judging sometimes for sure but you can believe or not I really I think I never cheated I think right maybe people think different I don't know but I think I never cheated I always try to do my best but if my best was good enough it's not my fault in this moment you know I try to give my best you know in the first second when you tell me something and criticize me for sure the first second I high pressure you know but you know after a distance or time distance I will come down and this should be possible you know to it's not easy it's not easy to be a judge like I mean I got a license I I'm like no there's no way like I can't like it just I can't there is many competitors that could be judges but they choose not to so we have to appreciate the people that are taking that same with helpers it's like if you're going to be a helper in a world championship you're going to have a certain amount

of people that's going to say that you suck like no question but as long as you you you prepare and you do the best you can and yeah right right right right maybe it's good enough but then maybe it's not your fault it's the fault of the people they choose you right yeah I think yeah there's been plenty of times where you would have a helper that oh yeah let's put them on the back half let them catch 120 crazy malinos like oh fuck like Marcos thank you my man thank you for the conversation and looking forward to the next one hopefully hopefully something more exciting we talk about than than trying to resolve the IGP judging you know but I think that was very cool conversation so thank you very much man I enjoyed so next time man thank you I Thank you.