E95: 레슬리 맥데빗(Leslie McDevitt) - "반려견의 동의를 구하는 행동 수정"

Every dog I get gets raised and trained with whatever I'm focused on in the moment. So everybody gets the next version of my training. So each dog progressively gets more foundation in having as much as I can in their life to be voluntary and be choice-based. So at this point, it just really feels like I'm really just having a conversation with my two young dogs and not ever really telling them what to do or not to do, but mostly just having a discussion where we figure out what's going to work for everybody. The exception with my puppy being, no, do not chase my bunny. That is old. That got old immediately. That could be a problem. Yep. Yeah, especially because he has a penchant for finding little dead chipmunks and things that the cats leave outside and carrying them around and sometimes carrying them into the house and leaving them under the couch. Fun. So I don't want him having thoughts about my bunny. That's been a clear just no. But most things are up for discussion and it feels really good to have the kind of relationship that I have with them. It's just a flow. It's just a good flow. And within it, everybody gets what they need. And as far as what I'm going to do with him, my last curve did some therapy work and I enjoyed that. So that might be something. I have competed in agility before, but never obedience. And I like to see Terves being so pretty and healing. So maybe that would be like a new fun thing to try and definitely a lot of nose work with him. But right now, we're just focused on just having a good flow of communication and just having a good, fun puppyhood. And it's kind of funny because in my past, if I got a puppy, I'd have all these plans and hopes and write things down. And it's like each dog I get, I teach less to and have less of a plan and have less of an agenda. And at this point, I just really don't have an agenda for them at all. I'm just going to kind of have a certain relationship and then like see where that takes us. Yeah. At this point, I'm just living with dogs. I started out living with dogs. So I got into it like wanting to just rescue companion dogs. And then I went into wanting to do all these things with dogs. And I think that was also attached to like proving myself that I could do all these things with dogs. And at this point, I'm just back to I'm living with dogs. And we'll see. We'll see, you know, where that takes us. And each one is different. And that feels good. I don't have pressure on myself like I used to. Like this dog needs to be titled in at least this many sports by this age. Right. Right. It's kind of come full circle at this point. Yeah.

I'm just like, this is cool. So the other thing is the last couple of dogs I've gotten from breeders, my trivia and then my 13 year old border collie. I know all the other people that got litter mates, you know. And so like it's hard sometimes because the other people might be like, oh, you know, this dog got a CGC already. And she's five months old, which happened. And, you know, all the stuff. And then whoever hasn't done that piece of things yet might be like, oh, my God. You know. And so I'm enjoying just not caring about that stuff anymore. Not being competitive and just being like, this is cool. You know. Absolutely. Yeah, I totally hear that. You kind of glossed over a little bit in there. But in there you mentioned that, you know, you got into it. You kind of started out with rescuing companion dogs. Can you tell me a little more about that? How did you get into dog training? How did you kind of wind up where you are? Well, my family always had dogs, mostly pugs. If you go into my parents' house in Texas, you will see a lot of pug art and pug related things everywhere. Like one of those. I'm thinking about that movie Best in Show. I'm like imagining if someone I'm imagining if someone in that movie had been a pug person with their house would have looked like. Kind of like that. Okay. Any kind of rocky parts of growing up, I had a dog with me. So that was always a really big deal. And when I was in high school, my mom got me and my sister a puppy, our first and only non-pug, Cocker Spaniel puppy. My mom had the idea to hire a trainer because she wasn't as tractable as the pugs had been. And my mom just didn't know what to do about that. You know, we didn't know. I don't know where my mom found the trainer. I'm assuming that she asked the vet, you know. But we didn't know any questions to ask or anything about anything or even that there were different methods. And I mean, you know, I was a 16-year-old that was just happy to have a puppy. This woman came to the door and my mom was all like, okay, you know, Leslie, the trainer's here. She's going to help you with Lucy. But, you know, my mom went and did something else. You know, the trainer told my puppy to lie down and she was like, what are you talking about? I'm a puppy. No one's ever told me to do anything. I steal underwear. Run around the house. What? What are you talking about? Yeah, she hung her. She put a choke chain on her and she, you know, lifted her up off the ground. And I was just, it's just one of those moments, like those traumatic moments that you can't, like, unexperienced,

that you just carry with you of feeling like total powerlessness and watching, like, being, like, totally taken off guard, being shocked, seeing something and not, like, really processing what you're seeing, feeling totally powerless to stop it, feeling like there's an authority figure doing, you know, hurting you or an extension of you and you can't stop it, and being the only other person in the room. You know what I mean? And having that person telling me, like, this is what you need to do because she's not listening or I don't, I have no idea what she said. And I can tell you, I don't know what happened next either. It's, like, one of those traumas that gets, like, encapsulated and you can give the details about that moment, but what happened before, after, you're like, I don't know. We didn't have that trainer come back and that dog was never trained either. So I thought dog trainers were evil. I went to college and I adopted a few dogs, you know, just wanting, like, to rescue animals and to always have dogs in my life. I suck at science and math and I was under the extremely mistaken impression that if you wanted to work with animals, you had to be a vet. I didn't really know other avenues, so I'd given up on that idea on working with animals, you know, as for my life, but just wanting to be around them all the time because I'm, like, a person that needs them. Like, I need that to be okay. So, like I said, I wanted to get into rescue and have that be my thing. Rescued a couple crazy dogs with issues, not cute little pugs. You know, fearful or aggressive shepherd mixes and was like... A little different, yep. Oh, crap. So anyway, that's how I kind of fell into it, you know, looking for answers for them and being like, I've found, you know, I've found ways, ways that work that are humane and obsessive. And this is, like, all I'm going to do now. Became absolutely, completely obsessed and turned into the super geek that stands before you all now. Fair enough. So after, obviously, having that kind of terrible experience, like being your first experience with a dog trainer, when you kind of wound up with reactive or fearful dogs, I mean, how did you kind of discover positive training? I mean, how did that become such a big part of your life and, I guess, your story? It's funny. I was in grad school for... I did creative writing and folklore and cultural anthropology. Both my degrees are those three things, like, combined into, like, an interdisciplinary mess that I got to do my own program. I have two degrees in that. I have two degrees in that.

I'm sure they're very helpful when it comes to dog training. They probably help with the books, though. I mean, I'm a writer. I've always been a writer, and that was always my plan. And I write about dogs and horses, which is something that I've done since I was literally in fifth grade. So, actually, I didn't really deviate as far as I thought that I would. So, anyway, right, so I was at Penn, which is where I ended up finding my mentor and my, you know, path. Just not in creative writing or anthropology. But, yeah, I was looking for help for one in particular and found a trainer. I probably, through my vet, maybe through the dog park, I had become, like, one of those people that's at the dog park, like, several times a day, every day whose life revolves around her. Rescue companion dogs and is always walking them and suddenly knows everyone in the neighborhood that has a dog. I was, like, you know, not knowing anything technical or professional, but just always with my dog, you know. So, I was being one of those people, somehow I found this trainer who came highly recommended. This is a person many people out there know and respect, and he's put out a lot of good material. He put out a book with a lot of good material in it. And so, I worked with him a little bit. He was, at that point years ago, what we were calling a balanced trainer. I don't know if we have a different word for it these days. I learned a lot from him about positive reinforcement and positive punishment. I got hot dogs and leash corrections from him. I got a lot from him about timing and, you know, technical skills that he was good at teaching. But I knew that, like, this wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I mean, it certainly wasn't hanging them either, but, you know, I didn't want to practice leash corrections and that stuff. So, at the same time, two things happened. One, I somehow heard about Karen overall. And at that point, she was the director of the clinical behavioral medicine department at the vet hospital at Penn. And, you know, I was like, this is where I need to go, obviously. And the other thing that happened was that the APDT had their thing, had their annual, and if you guys don't know what I mean, I mean the Association of Pet Dog Trainers. It had, like, its annual conference or whatever. And I think it must have been the Houston one, because I'm from Houston. And so, I think I was there visiting and went to it. And there was, like, you know, a table with, like, an ancient computer on it that was new at that time. And, you know, a cooker training video on it.

And I was like, I just looked at it, and I was like, yeah, that's it. I've missed the whole rest of my life doing whatever that is. I don't know what it is, but, yeah. Yeah. Jumped in feet first. So, yeah. I mean, it was one of those, like, I don't know, you walk into a party and see some other person, and they're like, yeah, I'm going to spend the rest of my life with that person. Like, some story like that, except it was quicker training on a video. I was like, yep. So, came back, kind of announced that to my trainer. It was extremely highly skeptical at the time. And I was like, I'm out. I'm done. I'm doing this now. It was sad. You know, the two dogs I had at that time ended up being, you know, happy clicker dogs. But when I first introduced a clicker, I watched them make the assumption that it was something aversive. And that's why I was using it. Because I had been taught to put, like, pennies in a can and shake it and stuff like that. And the one had extreme noise phobia. And so, he had developed some superstitious behavior based on that sound. Both of them were like, you're clicking something. That must mean something bad. They just assumed it. You know, you've introduced something new into the picture. So, that must be, like, some kind of aversive thing. We don't know what it is yet. But, you know, we're ready for it. So, I had to convince them that, no, that was not the case. And then, you know, I did bring the very fear, aggressive, noise phobic one to Karen. And it was like, this woman knows everything about everything. If we didn't say fangirl, like, I kind of freak out. Because occasionally, people say, like, I'm totally fangirling at you. And I'm like, that, I don't know what to say to that. But anyway, but that's me. I'm Karen's fangirl. And I was like, please adopt me, Karen. She let me take the class for her vet students. Like, the clinical behavioral course that the vet students at Penn take, she let me, you know, sit there and go through it all. And so, I started assisting her with her clients because she knew that I would follow through with what she wanted to do, how she wanted to do it, and that I would do it right how she wanted it. And, you know, be of support in that way. She could trust me to do that. So, that's kind of how it all started. And my goal at that time was, because I started taking on my own clients soon after that, my criteria for that was, if it's not crazier than my own dogs that I'm doing well with, you know, if it's not crazier than them, I'll take it. Fair enough. So, that was, like, probably almost 20 years ago.

And I started learning agility and fly ball with my smaller shepherd mix at Y2K9 and started teaching there and et cetera. And I'm still there, and it's literally been, like, 20 years of Y2K9. My dear friend, Kevin Julie, started it. I've been there all this time. And that's, you know, a cooker training sports club. So, in case you're going to ask me, like, how did CU come about, that's how. Because I had this, like, behavioral base from Karen, and then we saw weird behavioral stuff with sport dogs and a clicker club. And I went, I'm going to put all this stuff together. So, that's what happened. That's awesome. So, I do want to ask you about that. But before we get there, you know, I kind of want to bring things to today a little bit. If you're going to describe your training philosophy today, kind of how would you describe that to somebody? My philosophy is that I don't even want to use the word training because it has, people have a condition interpretation of it about, like, I know something that I want you to do that you don't know. And I'm going to show it to you in some way and make sure you do it how I like. You know what I mean? And I call that, like, sort of a cue and response. And, yes, you do need that to an extent. And you certainly need it if you're training precision behavior for a sport. But that's, like, a level of training. And it's not everything. So, I'm just looking at, because I do behavior mod and counter conditioning. I mean, like, I teach precision behaviors to my dogs if there's something fun that I want to do. But that's not what I'm teaching others. For what I do, it's just more about a communication, like a conversation. And it's flexible. The dog can cue you. You can cue the dog. Everyone is constantly giving each other feedback. And it's just a really different – it looks different. And it's just a different style. And it's a different way of looking at, like, what's possible. You know, you set up a language that you both understand. And then it has the flexibility that you can both direct each other and give each other information. So, if you wanted to make that into, like, a philosophy, I don't have a catchy word for that right now. I call my style conversational. It has to do with definitely, like, a heavy focus on voluntary behavior, on, you know, giving the dog agency to ask for the work, to give you feedback during the work. Also, part of the philosophy has to do with the importance of the human part of the team learning how to listen to their dog and adjust what they're asking. Learning how to be flexible and how to adjust for the moment.

Because, like, people get very – type A, I need these three things. And now I need these three things in this environment when there's other things happening without having, like, worked on pieces. And so, I want people to kind of – to practice adjusting. Like, when the environment changes, your criteria may need to change, you know, to look at their conditions. What are the conditions that you're asking for something in? And do you need to change your conditions? And can you change your conditions? So, I heard Susan Friedman say a cool thing the other day. So, she's just, like, a wizard. She's just, like, one of the super cool, super cool applied behavior analysts, goddess people. And the other day she was saying something about behavior is not intrinsic. So, it was really very much like a don't blame the learner. It's not just coming from them out of the blue. Like, we're all very much interdependent on each other and on the environment. Behavior is not intrinsic. It is very connected with environmental conditions. And therefore, first of all, therefore, blaming the learner is unfair and very – a narrow way of seeing the world. Because it's not everything that's happening. You are bad. You are a bad dog. But also, the piece that she was highlighting was if you want to change the behavior, change the conditions. Okay? Because conditions affect behavior. Period. And so, people just don't always kind of carry that in their pocket. Dogs notice more than we do. Use their senses a bit differently than we do. Have a different skill set, different sensory skill set than we do. So, if we make too many assumptions about what they see or hear or smell or don't see or hear or smell based on what we are experiencing, we're missing a lot of the conditions that the behavior is happening in. So, it's learning to kind of be mindful and be a trainer that can be flexible and adjust in the moment. You know, and then all the technical things that come with being a good trainer. But being able to adjust, I think, is really important. So, the philosophy, I guess, be a good listener. Be flexible. And create, you know, create a system of cues that feels more like a flow or a conversation and not just like, I said this, do this. To kind of not necessarily jump back, but kind of bring up Control Unleashed again because I did want to get into that. You know, what do you feel it is? Obviously, it's something that you're very well known for. So, what do you feel it is about that program that has led it to be, you know, kind of what it is as successful as it's managed to become?

I think one of the reasons is that, like, the science behind it is solid and it works. Like, if you do it right, it does work. And I didn't make up the science. But I just have, like, my own ways of seeing it and applying it that has been helpful. So, that's one thing, I think, just practically. And another thing, which might outweigh the practical part, I have much insistence that it does. But, you know, I wrote from a place of, I have been in your shoes. I have been a sports student. I am living in this culture. I've been told the same things as you. This is what I figured out that works for me. And I also have this behavioral background and this understanding of the science. But I feel like you do. And this is what I've done to deal with it. And so, I think most of their books were like, here I am. I'm a dog trainer and this is what I've done. And mine was like, this really sucks. I totally get it. Let's have some wine or some ice cream or whatever. We're going to talk about this. Because, you know, the first book, the energy generated to write, to sit down and write a whole book was like a rant energy of stuff that I was frustrated about. You know, certain mantras that I felt were needed to be replaced about things like be the most important thing because it was exhausting people. And they didn't understand what that really meant or what they could really do. And it was a lot of blaming the learner. So, like, if you talk about conditions that are affecting behavior and you look at your human learners like an agility class, you know, and they've got all this kind of stuff going on plus the social pressure around them. And then the teacher being like, you're not interesting enough. And they don't have the tools to, like, they just can't process all of that. And they've got this dog running away. It's like so much. And honestly, I think a lot of the success of it was just like, yeah, this is how you feel. And this is why. And we're just going to break it down. And then I gave them stuff that works. And the other thing is people were drawn to it that either, like, the traditional stuff you do wasn't working. Because, like, everyone has different conditions and everyone has to, you know, have their individual thing. So, like, one teacher saying this because it works for her dog might not be your thing. To be fair, like, to the instructors, and I said this in the book, I was like, it's their job is to teach you the sport. So, I'm not saying, like, they're supposed to be behaviorist, but fix all your problems and teach you the sport.

But it's also putting a lot of pressure on the instructor for them to know all the things. There's a team. And it's like, together we can know all the things. But if the instructor doesn't have, doesn't know all the things, but has heard, like, a mantra without being able to adjust for your individual circumstances, the class setup might be fine for the one dog in the class, but not your dog in the class. And the instructor has the class set up as it is. In an agility class, they're there to teach you agility. Yeah. Right. Exactly. So, that instructor is going to default to you're not being interested enough because the dog is running away and barking at other dogs or something. Because that's what she knows. That's what she's been taught. And she's there to teach you how to do a front cross. And the room is going to be set up how that teacher sets up her room. So, I understand that. So, you know, I was an instructor, too. Not agility, but, you know, like manners and then control and leash instructor. So, I kind of can see, like, all the angles because, you know, a lot of instructors liked it, too. I can kind of understand from everyone's point of view, which that's kind of my thing. And it's not always easy to be me, like, to live with that because I'm social and I'm flexible and I want to know what you think. And I'm very, like, I can see this and that. Except when it comes to positive training. Like, I don't see any reason to not be a positive trainer. But I can see perspective. It works for teachers because it was also, like, if this is happening in class, here's something that you could do. And handlers that were, like, yep, I know how you feel. Here's something you could do. It empathize with kind of all of the different potential readers. Yeah. Right. Because that's my thing. I'm just, like, an empathic person. I'm not one of the dog trainers that, like, likes animals more than people because people are animals. And I just like learners. I like all the learners. So, it's been a little while since the book came out, right? The book came out in 2007. So, it's been almost 10 years. How have you seen the world of training kind of change since then? And do you still fully endorse everything you included in that original book? No. There's one thing that I would change. The world, I think, has come along with me very nicely. I think there's a lot more trainers and material that are what I was trying to put out there and that are compatible with that.

But as far as what I would change, for one thing, like, in the puppy book, which came out, you know, a few years after that, and then in the new book that will be coming out shortly, there's more details on how to teach things. So, one thing is I see things and then I write them down, but I don't necessarily see them how you're going to see them because I haven't met you because it's a book. So, after working with, like, a few thousand more people over the past 11 years, I can be like, here's a bunch more steps. So, not changing the old exercises, but adding more things to make it more for everybody is one thing that's happened. And the one thing that I would and am changing is when I started out teaching, like, a leave it type behavior, you know, I was using some negative punch. In other words, you go towards the food without a cue and I'll remove it or, you know, food or toy. I mean, for most dogs, I don't think that that shatters their psyche, but it's not necessary and it's always good to, like, creatively find better ways to train. And, I mean, negative punishment is going to happen in life occasionally. You're not going to get something that you wanted. Ask my two kids. But I don't want it to be, like, the first thing you think to do, you know. So, when I started out teaching leave it, I learned that from, like, a good clicker trainer. It was, like, humane. It was just, like, you know, because we weren't using a leash. Like, everyone else that I saw was putting something on the floor and then jerking back and going, no, leave it. Like, this is what I was seeing in the world. So, to me, to have the dog not on a leash and just remove the food temporarily until the dog offered something else and click that was the humane way to go. So, anyway, but there's other ways. And I really like some of my friends are talking right now, some of them being fabulous FDSA instructors, are talking about the idea of it's just stimulus control. Like, let's stop using this phrase impulse control. It's just stimulus control. It's just training. It's just more operant work. Looking at how you can teach, you know, leaving one thing alone is being more about the side of the equation. It's about and do something else instead, you know. And that's why it's about a stimulus control issue. Do this. While you're doing this, you aren't doing that. So, it's just a different, you know, way of looking at it. And then I like, back when I taught the first book, I had not heard of the concept of marker cues. And maybe if I had been in different sports, I would have.

I don't know, like, when that started and became a thing. But that's interesting to me. And so, I like the idea of using marker cues to teach to leave it. There's food in two different places. The cue is going to tell you which food to get. So, you're automatically leaving one thing. It's just a stimulus control operant issue now. It's not just don't try to take this or I'm going to take it. So, I'm looking at that. So, I did write a chapter in the new book. I called it Leave It Without Tears. Aw. I like that. Yeah. Speaking of the new book, though, obviously, I know that you have a new book coming out. Can you share a little more about it? What's it called? How is it different than the existing kind of Control Unleashed book? Um, it's called Reactive to Relax. The way that it's different is I've had 11 years to think about this stuff and make it better, give more information to it, tweak what I want of it, add stories to it, add experience to it. So, you could read it just separately from the first book, but I'd rather you didn't. I'd rather you add the first book with it. What I've tweaked from my experience over these years using this, you know, in different situations, what I've added to it, what I've changed, you know, how I've come to see it. And I really hope that, like, everyone that's still, you know, really using the first book will look over this one so that they can add to what they're doing. I've had a lot of years to watch people do things wrong and, like, figure out different ways of teaching different people that are going to work, you know? I've just had a lot of time. So, I would really hope that they would look through to see how it's been, you know, tweaked and added to. And then the other thing is I've got a bunch of fun new games that are in there, again, things to add. And I have all the pattern games, which I made a DVD about when I was pregnant, knowing I was going to be out of commission for a long time, and I was. But I never wrote anything about them. So, I've got that. And I've got a lot in there about voluntary behavior, start button behavior, how it's worked, and control and leash, because I wasn't using those words then, but the concept was behind some of it. So, now I have more language around that. And all the new games use that. The dogs can initiate the new games and give feedback about starting and stopping them. So, you know, heavy into the counter conditioning side of things. So, tweaking old things and adding to them new games, lots about voluntary behavior and how it works within, you know, within CU as a system.

Because it was always meant to be a system, you know, a flexible one that you could customize to work for the individual, but a system of, like, things combined. I know some people just, like, flip through or just, like, hear about, oh, look at that game, you know, on the internet and do one thing, and they're not getting the full picture of what's going on. Because you said, like, what's your philosophy? So, that's, like, so ingrained in how everything is approached and why we're doing what we're doing. And it's all pieces. And, you know, you could do just one piece. But it's nice when you see the flow of how it works. So, you mentioned in there kind of start button behaviors and consent and things like that. And I kind of heard before we chatted that that was in there. Can you talk a little more about that? Why is including this concept of consent important, first of all? And then what does that really look like when we're talking about dogs? Well, it could look like two things when we're talking about dogs. One, you could watch your dogs and look for their natural behaviors that they give that are, like, asking behaviors or consenting behaviors. You know, like, if you pet them and then you stop petting and they like being pet, what do they do? Do they move a little closer to you? Right? So, like, you can just kind of watch your dog and see, like, are they asking for something or not? And also, like, all the times that they kind of turn away. Like, you know, as trainers, we can see, like, someone pet their dog and the dog is like, ugh, and moves away. And that person, like, doesn't notice. Do you know what I mean? I've had a lot of people like that. And then they're like, my dog's so friendly or something. And I'm like, dude, your dog hates being touched. That's, like, the obvious thing, right? But there's all kinds of little things. And then the second piece of this is the conditions that, you know, we can teach a behavior that is easily recognized by anybody. So, for the person that doesn't notice little things, it's good to learn to notice little things. But also, you can say, look, this dog either is resting their chin on this target or they're not. So, you can, you know, condition a behavior that literally means, like, start. So, if it's pet and the dog can be like, okay, I put my chin on your knee, pet me. Okay, I moved it. Stop. And that's, like you said, it's clear criteria for everybody. And you can also just kind of, like, shape your way into it based on reading your animal. People have been doing that kind of stuff for a long time.

And, you know, some of my friends are, like, super good at it and teaching. Like, you know, Deb for FDSA is teaching the husbandry class and stuff like that. But so, what I was looking at was I really like all of this. Personally, I suck at husbandry. I'm lazy. I don't want to clip your nails. It's never been, like, a draw to me. However, volunteer behavior is a giant draw to me. So, now I'm willing to do more husbandry-based things because it's a chance for me to work on voluntary behavior where I never would have done it before. So, like, my last perv had, like, dreadlocked fur and, like, my puppy is, like, always shiny. Because he brings me his brush and, like, asks me to brush him. And it's because of the way that I taught him just because voluntary behavior is fun, you know? If he sees me brushing the kid's hair, he, like, runs up and sits. And he's like, oh, my God, I might be next. And he steals his brush. And, like, I'm not going to lie. His brush is the kid's brush. And he goes into the bathroom and takes it. And I, like, find it in different places around the house because he loves it so much that he just wants to carry it around. So, like, that's fascinating to me. And, you know, weird, but he's a turv. So, anyway, what I wanted to do with that is, you know, I looked back over CU and over the ways that voluntary behavior does play a role in it already. Like, to give me a break in was all about the dog learning they could ask you to tell them to do a behavior. And then looking at, like, new counter conditioning games, you know, building new counter conditioning games, you know, from this voluntary perspective that the dog can say, walk this dog towards me or walk me towards that dog and stop. Walk me away from the dog. What would that look like? And so there's a lot of stations, you know, so the dog can very clearly use a specific behavior to say, walk me to that spot under these conditions or not. And so that's what I'm looking at. And it's great. It's, like, super awesome. You know, I'm going to quote Susan Friedman again because another cool thing she said, and that quote is in my book. I think it's actually the – I think I started the book with this quote. Of course, I don't even remember the quote, but it has something to do with control being a primary reinforcer, that controlling an outcome is what behavior is for. That is the evolutionary purpose of it. Guess what? Animals like controlling stuff that they might be scared of. They feel better then. And then guess that makes your training go faster, you know?

So, like, I had this experience with this weird kind of doctor called a physiatrist. It's, like, a chiropractic physical therapist witch doctor person. I've had all kinds of back problems and pain over the years. She was working on my back, and I was like, I mean, it was bad. It hurt so much. And she was like, you know what? I'm just going to stand here with my hand out. And she's like, you do it. She was like, you can pick how, you know, gentle or, you know, how strong you want this to be. I'm just going to stand here. And I was like, huh, interesting. And then I was suddenly willing to take, like, 100% more pain because it was my idea. That made a huge impression on me. Possibly literally a hand-shaped impression on me because I was like, yeah, dig it back in there. If you know anything about me, you know I love mats and stations. And, you know, all these things can make it really clear, right? Like, this dog is only going to walk up to this point, not all the way up to you. Are you ready for him to go to that point or not? And stuff like that. And they're like, yeah, I can handle that. And then if you change your criteria, if you move the station, they see it. So they know that you did it. And they can say, sure, do it again. Or they can be like, dude, you totally moved that too close. I am not pushing that button. And you're like, okay, I'll change it again. So when I talk about a conversation, like, this is, you know, a language of cues that you can both speak. And the dog can clearly say if it's okay or not. You can be very specific in, how would you like your counter conditioning today? You can be very specific. And they buy into it right away. You know, they're like, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, if you have like, you know, companion dog clients or whatever, they don't have to have tons of training background to jump right into this. All they need to have is good environmental management to keep things safe and some kind of start button. You know, it would be nice if they were station trained. But even if they're not, you can do all the ones where the other dog is going to a spot. And they'll recognize that that's the spot. I can totally see why it would be hard to continue to be afraid of something if you were in control of the thing. Yeah. It's like, I'm thinking of this Simpsons episode where Homer's in the hospital and he realizes that he can make the bed move by pushing a button. And he's like, like all day and all night. And you know, like you see the sun go up and down and everything. He's like, bed goes up, bed goes down, bed goes up, bed goes up, bed goes up, bed goes down.

And one dog that I worked with hated the husband of another one of the students in the CU class and was like lying to wait for him in the parking lot to like explode at him. And I didn't even know that was happening because that husband used to just like read the news in his car, not even come in. And I didn't even know he was in the parking lot. And so like one day the dog, the dog was a bore collie, the handler like broke down. This is what's going on, you know? And I was like, oh, so he was, he was the first one that I used an in motion target behavior for him to move her towards me and then towards this guy. Um, so he could say, bring me closer to this guy, you know? And then if he wasn't doing the targeting behavior, then she, you know, he, he kind of, I think mostly they just keep doing it. People are like, what if they don't do it? Um, if they don't do it, stay where you are. Like, don't keep approaching or turn around and go the other way back to your starting point. You know, there's usually a clear starting point of like some matter station, you know, and you just take them back to us. They could start over, but, but anyway, yeah. So he was like walking her up to that guy. And then we made like a PlayStation, you know, half at a halfway point. And he was able to like, you know, play there with his toy and then tell her, keep walking. And, you know, we did various things. He was doing great. And then she wanted to fly him to Finland for an agility competition. And we're like a camp. We, you know, we were concerned about flying him and the TSA because they're like various men, you know, are triggering. And, and we all kind of like freaked out, but they really wanted to do this. Um, and so we, we practiced, we got, we like brought the airline crate. He had not met my husband. So he, my husband was like the TSA guy and, you know, we were doing more like old style. You know, my husband was going to walk up and you get a tree and he'll walk away and stuff like that. And he was like tolerating everything, but he was not relaxed. He was just, he was just more like, I'm a good dog and I'm going to have to just do this. But he wasn't like, yeah, great. Do it again. And, and then I was like, um, and at that point I hadn't yet made a, made a protocol where like, say he could have done a target behavior in the crate to have my husband walk towards the crate or not. Um, that's probably what I would work on now with him, but that didn't exist yet. So what we did is I took him out of the crate, had my husband like go stand far away and, and I was like, do you want to take me over to him?

You know, you put, you know, he puts his, his chin like on the person's hands and that's her cue to walk. And then if he moves it away, she stops walking. So he walked her right up to my husband and he was like, hi, I know this. Then he went back into the crate and he was like, okay. And then he was a lot more relaxed. Um, and he just was really, um, that thing for him just really helps normalize, you know, this is a strange dude. You don't know what these conditions are, but you do know this, which is, um, when I talk about rule structures a lot, this is what I mean. And when I talk about like patterns, like in pattern games, it's like a system or a set of rules that is reliable. So you can plug something unknown into this equation, but the dog trusts the equation, you know, and he just, he just liked doing that behavior so much. He'd walk her up to anybody. He did go to Finland and, and all that. And he was, you know, he was okay. He was all right. So, but anyway, that was the first dog that I, you know, I experimented on in terms of like a moving, um, a moving target behavior. So it's kind of cool. Um, it goes fast. Like, yeah, I'm going to go closer to this thing. I was in Norway recent, like really recently. And I got asked, I got asked a good question about, cause I was using food. Well, what if the dog is like, you know, working for the food and thinking about the food and not like what they're approaching. And then they eat and then they look up and they're like, oh my God, now I met a thing because I was worried by food and I wasn't prepared, you know, stuff like that. Or like, what if the food is like masking? They're doing more than they're willing to cause they want food or something like that. And then they look up and they explode. Um, and these types of games make that not relevant because the dog knows exactly where the thing is. They're saying if they want to go somewhere, if they want the thing to move and they're getting food, but they're directing things. And there's no like surprise. Like suddenly I'm closer than I meant to be. Cause they said, take me there. Um, and so it just does, it's just not relevant. And then the other, um, thing with it is if I'm doing a game where there's some kind of approach, um, it's always paired with a retreat. So the dog knows if he's asking to go towards something, when he gets to a certain point, whether it's a station or all the way to the thing, the next thing that's going to happen is he's going to turn around and go back to his starting station.

And he knows that because like, I have more steps of match training now, you know, and one is something moves towards you while you're on a mat. If they move towards you, they also get to a certain point and move away. And you, you could use the start button to control that too. It's counter conditioning, but there's an operant space behind it, um, that the dog is controlling. So we're kind of getting closer to the end here. And there are three questions I usually ask people the first time they're on. The first of which is what is the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? All right. Well, this is about my behavior because I talk in the book about, you know, having had an anxiety disorder and all the kind of conditioning that I've done with myself. Um, and, uh, it's dog related because, you know, cause of the books and, and this kind of stuff, you know, I've been asked for a long time. So I'm trying to fly around and travel and teach strangers that don't, you know, speak foreign languages and be in airports and do all kinds of things that are, were immensely triggering at first cause all kinds of anxiety. Um, I, I, I've been able to literally train myself to feel relaxed about doing it. Um, so when my, when my book is called reacted to relaxed also refers to me, I talk about how I learned to see my brain as a little dog that I train. Um, it's fine. Like I know Heathrow airport literally like the back of my hand. I used to like pace all night and like throw up and like have horrible panic attacks over like much smaller things. You know, like I wrote in the book, like, you know, a local dog show and make myself do it. I made myself do it, but, um, that's, that's the tolerating, not the learning how to relax. Right. I forced myself to tolerate it because I was that motivated to do it. Um, now I'm like totally cool about, you know, I shouldn't say that because then I'll start getting asked to travel more. Um, it's, it's, it's hard, but it's hard for different reasons. It's hard because I have kids and I'm busy and it takes time, but it's not hard for the reasons that the emotional reasons that it used to be. Um, and you know, I, I've done similar stuff with my own brain that, that I have with the dogs and it's science. You know, it's just science. I'm not saying like I made it up and it's magic. It's just, it's science. And, you know, it works and changes our behavior too. I, I don't want to say like what I'm most proud of with a dog, because I feel like that's picking my favorite kid or something.

Like I've done lots of things with all the dogs, but I, but I'm proud of myself that I can just, you want me to go to Germany? Okay, fine. You know, um, the other day I presented for the working dog conference. There's like a room full of like FEMA search and rescue cops, first responders, you know, with like Malinois. And I was like, this is not my usual agility club that invites me for a lecture. This is like 250 cops looking at me. And, but I think, I feel like it was the best presentation I ever gave. I realized early on that I could make them laugh and I felt like dizzy with power over that. And then I just was like really funny. And when I'm, when I'm funny and when people are laughing, that's when I'm like the most relaxed and just like talking to you. It was great. And I mean, that was really like anxiety provoking because the conditions were not my normal conditions. And I didn't have a dog. See, if I have a dog or if I'm working with a person's dog, then I'm thinking about the dog. And I'm not thinking so much about I'm up here on a stage, blah, blah, blah. But I didn't have that either. I didn't have that. And I had a room full of cops that, you know, that is intimidating to me. I think that's intimidating to most people. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I mean, you know, like within every dog culture, there's suspicions about people that are coming in outside of your culture to tell you your business. But I do consult at the working dogs that are not had been working with those dogs. So I did have like, you know, video of the kind of dogs that they would be working with and stuff. But even so, like that's not the world that I'm coming from. So anyway, that was cool. I was, you know, I still feel pretty happy with myself that I did that. And it was like, okay. That's an awesome thing. Yeah. I mean, that's a huge accomplishment. Second to last question here. What is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? I'm going to give a quote. That's the advice. But it's a quote. It's a quote that Karen Pryor has been quoted as saying. I heard it in the context of she said it once to Emma Parsons. When Emma was, you know, feeling anxiety about her dog being aggressive and all the exhausting stuff that comes with having a dog like that. Karen Pryor was quoted as saying, it's just behavior. And to me, like, that makes it all okay. Unless like a shark is eating you and you're like, it's just behavior. It's okay. It makes it okay. It's like, it's not personal. You know, they're not out. They're not out to get you. Like, you know, it's like, yeah, it's just behavior.

You know, and if you don't like it, behavior can be changed. Conditions can change. Behavior can change. And also it takes away where I come from. At least my little corner of the dog sport world that I came of age in can be very judgy and very finger pointery and very your dog did something wrong. So it's your fault. I think that sort of it's just behavior. Like, and therefore we have agency to change it. And it's not personal. It's not like you weren't enough of a leader or whatever. And even if like your dog did the wrong thing to Julie, cause you took the wrong step or looked at the wrong thing. Like there used to be that t-shirt, um, praise the dog, slap the handler. It's funny, except that a lot of people used to come to me for a lesson and they would just burst into tears. Literally. It was really more like therapy. Cause I would be like, like I said about why I think people liked that first book. Like, yep. I had a teacher that said that too. You know, I went home and cried too. You know, I feel like that whole idea, it's just behavior. It's like, yeah. And so your behavior may be part of it. We'll look at that and you can change your behavior. And then the dog is behavioral too. Cause you're part of the condition, but it's like, but that's normal. That's how learning works. It's not like, and you're therefore a bad person. It's like, yeah, that's how it works. You know? So I just feel like that, those three words, it's just behavior to me. Like just make everything about training calmer. You know? Like there's no need to like, you know, judge people cause they're less experienced or don't have the timing or the, you know, whatever that you have. It's like, cause their behavior can change. It's just behavior. I can say it. Like one of my kids has sensory processing disorder and maybe like a little side helping of ADD in there. And it's like, he has a lot of behavior, but, but sometimes I can just be like, Leslie, it's just behavior. Yeah. You're like, yep, that's what it is. I think also like, if you're afraid of something, but you can label it, it's just a spider. You know, it has a name now. It's not so unknown. It has a name. It has parameters. And the same thing. People get really worked up, whether it's, they want a perfect performance and they're freaking out. They're waiting to go into the ring. And it's like that kind of take a breath. It's just behavior. This is not life or death. Calm down. Or feeling like they've done all these things wrong because their dog is this way and that way for both of them. Yeah. It's just behavior. Like, yeah. It's okay. Okay. It can be changed. We were not all behaving.

We would be dead. Like, yeah. Anyway, I heard Emma tell that story and she took it the same way I did. I think it calmed her down a lot when she was upset about her dog's aggressive behavior to be like, yeah, it's behavior. You know, like not a bad dog. You haven't failed handling a dog. It's just like, yeah, behavior is happening. It's not even personal. I just really like that. To kind of ask you a final question here, that's probably not going to be an easy one. But who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? And you don't have to feel like you have to name the one and only, but you know, just somebody. All my friends. There's some FGSA trainers that I really look up to because they just do such fine precision work and they're my girls, like Hannah, Sarah, Owings, Denise, Deb, you know, and I'm just seeing such high quality, good work and it's getting out there to so many people. It's really cool. I think in terms of who I'm like awestruck by, it's Ken Ramirez. Ken Ramirez knows everything. You were not the first person to say that. Yeah. He's made of magic, sunshine and rainbows. And the fact that he was willing to talk to me and even put me on the faculty, because I'm on the expo faculty, speaking of having to work with like anxiety about presenting, the fact that like he did that, I'm still like, what? He's working on conservation training like now, like literally like teaching wild elephants that they can choose a different migratory route and avoid being poached. I mean, and here I am in my living room with a dog. Yeah. The dude has literally been shot by poachers. He is living like this amazing craziness of a life to help animals. And he's just like, he's just so bright. He just, he just sees so much. I really appreciate trainers that work with a variety of species. That's a big deal to me. The other trainers that I would, you know, mention like being influenced by and looking up to are my friends that are training other species or have trained a variety of species. I've got some horse, some clicker horse trainer friends. Um, and my friend, Laura, Monica Torelli, um, you know, she started out at Shedd Aquarium. Um, you know, she's trained everything and she does all of, you know, voluntary husbandry stuff now, really good stuff that definitely influenced me and the whole voluntary thing. So, I mean, there's a lot of good stuff happening right now, which is really cool. And when I look around and I'm like, the world's going to hell, oh my God, what are we doing? I can, you know, kind of calm myself down and be like, our community is still, you know, progressing.

Sometimes it seems like nothing else is progressing, but I'm like, our community is looking pretty good right now. Too bad we don't run the world or anything, but you know. Working on it, right? No. Just saying. It's just behavior, right? Right. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Leslie. This has been fantastic. Great. Thank you so much. I guess I have to put my kids to bed now. I'd rather keep talking to you, but oh well. Fair enough. I suppose, you know, at some point I should let you go do that. Well, thank you again. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Trish McMillan to talk about behavior modification and shelter work. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have your next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lane. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you. Thank you.