Training Without Conflict® 에피소드 54: Jason Purgason

It's, it's, it's a international association of canine professionals, right? Yeah. Yeah. Correct. And it's based in the States and, and, and, but now you are the current president, which is really cool. Yeah. I, at one point, I don't know, a few years back, I was part of the legislation or legislative committee. It seems like at the moment, everything is kind of changing. Like there is a new faces on the board of directors. So kind of, you know, some, some new blood, more excitement, hopefully good things coming along. But the, the place that you have, by the way, it's just, it's amazing. I mean, the, I don't know how, how big it is right now, as far as, you know, acres and, and, but, but the, when, when I was there, it was, it was just a beautiful, beautiful and it was a good time of the year, but just the whole facility was just really, really cool to, to train and to see and everything. Like if, I, I like the service dog stuff. I know we've talked about this. How, how did the service dog thing, and especially, you know, when, when typically when you think about service dogs, you would think something, most likely something different than autism. And how, how did you guys find, what, what, what drew you to this part of therapy work? I mean, it's not the common, you know, it's not, it is not easy. And I cannot wait to hear more about it. It's a really interesting story. Almost, almost, almost a funny story. Looking back on it now. So, as I mentioned, we started our business in 2006. However, I had been training dogs, working for other companies and had a law enforcement career prior to that. But we had trained some, we had trained some service dogs for individuals, primarily those in wheelchairs. And for a few other things for, for individuals who had hearing disabilities or were completely deaf. And our autism service dog, sort of our entry into that, again, it's pretty interesting. And that was started in 2008. So, we'd been in business for, for a few years, again, training different service dogs. And the way that we got into it was, we had, my wife and I have, for many years, fostered children. And, and, and one of the children that we ended up fostering had autism. So, that was very eye-opening for us. Challenging, to say the least, not knowing much about it. But, this whole thing sort of started in, in 2008. Middle part of 2008, I believe it was. We were getting up, getting ready for our day. And, getting ready to go, go train some dogs. And, we were drinking coffee and watching morning news broadcasts. And, part of that morning news broadcast, they had a, had a company on there.

And, and this company was demonstrating the service dogs that they had trained for individuals with autism spectrum disorders. And, this whole bit was probably four or five minutes long. And, we, we listened and we looked at what the dogs were doing. And, we then heard what price they were asking for these dogs. We, we, we knew a few individuals who had children with autism spectrum disorders. Not many at the time. And, and, I don't remember the exact number. But, it was, you know, somewhere around $40,000 or $50,000 per dog. And, this was back in 2000, and, 2008. And, if you remember, that was the, the year that the market crashed. Yeah. Yeah. So, we watch this thing, and we hear the price. And, we see the, we see what, what things these dogs are able to, to do. Which, honestly, we were not impressed by. And, and it just sort of, we sort of looked at each other almost instantaneously. And, we're like, we can do better than that. And, we can do it for a lot cheaper. And, that's sort of how it started. We, we started, you know, researching. We started learning. We, I'll be honest with you, the, the best information and the best teachers we have ever had about how to best work with these clients. A lot of them are children. Most of them. Not all. It has been from the family members of those individuals. And, from those individuals themselves. We have learned so much over the years. And, it's such a complex, you know, it's really such a complex thing. And, there's a saying that we heard really early on. I'm not sure if you've ever heard it. But, the saying goes, once you've met one child with autism, then you've met one child with autism. And, it just goes to show just how unique they are. And, the reality is, we figured out super early in the process that the dogs had to be just as unique as these individuals. There was no opportunity. In our opinion, there was no opportunity for some sort of cookie cutter approach. You know, you couldn't, couldn't mass produce these dogs to go out and, and, and help these individuals in the way that they needed it. They had to be, they had to be, really be customized in a way that they were able to very specifically help mitigate that individual's disability. And, it's, you know, it's, it's, it's been a, it's been a, it's been a, it's, it's part of the business that I still truly love. I'm still involved in it, quite a bit. I do still get to travel and, and meet families and, you know, meet the individuals who are, who are receiving the dogs. And, it's, it's incredibly rewarding.

Do you guys do, like, after, after placement, do you have any follow-ups and, and kind of ongoing communication with them or, or, yeah? We do. We, we, it, this will sound a little cliche, but the reality is, this is incredibly true. And that's the fact that we oftentimes somewhat become family with these individuals, you know, it's such a process and we get to know them so well. Yeah. Cause you get to know them on a very intimate level, actually. I mean, I mean, there is no way other around it. Yeah. I, I, I, I just, uh, recently opened a, a Christmas card, uh, from the family of the very first autism dog that we ever trained back in two, we delivered it early 2009. So, uh, uh, 16, 16 years ago, January 09. So 16 years ago, I'm still getting Christmas cards from these people. That dog, unfortunately has, has passed, but the, you know, again, we're still connected with those, those people. So, yeah, that's, that's what's about all the time. I mean, this is the good, the good stories, right? How is it like, is it still the same or what? Like I'm thinking, where do you get the dogs? What type of dogs do you, do you have the, any in-home program breeding or, or how, how, where do you guys, what do you do? Cause that's not easy to select that type of dogs. And I need to kind of also, I'm super curious of, as you said, they are very different in individual one-to-one basis, but, but still what comes to mind when you are to select the dog and say, I think that's going to be a good one. Um, it's, it's, it's, uh, it can be a challenging process because you have to, uh, you really have to understand the individual first before you have any real opportunity to select the right dog for. Uh, you know, so that's, that's one thing that we found out again, really early on. We have to, we have to truly understand this person. We have to understand their lifestyle. We have to understand their schedule, their activity level, uh, their level, potentially a level of impulsivity. And, you know, um, the, there's a lot of nuance, uh, when, when, you know, looking at these matches and what's going to make a good fit. Uh, we have been incredibly successful over the years, not perfect. Um, I won't, I'd never say we got a perfect track record, but I don't know that anybody does, but, uh, overall, you know, our, our, our track records is excellent. I would rate it as excellent, but again, there are some that won't fit. They're just not going to fit. Um, they're not going to fit well and do the job you want them to.

Um, one of the reasons why I think our, um, our record is so good is because our, our application process, and it is in fact a process, uh, is so in depth. Um, it, it, it requires, you know, a lot of information. Uh, we obtained videos from the family of the, the individual who's going to be receiving the doll, you know, interacting in their environment on a daily basis. Um, so there's a lot that goes into it, um, because we want to make sure that, um, we're not just placing the doll. We're not just selling someone a service dog. We want to make sure, um, that we're providing them with a dog that is going to be of help to them in their daily life. Um, because, you know, if we match them with the wrong dog, or if we match somebody who really, from looking at their application, isn't going to benefit from a dog, we're simply giving them more work. And, and that's, you know, just all the individuals. Yeah, probably more work and just, just tension and just, just, yeah, creating more, more difficulties all around. Yeah. Yeah. And conflict. And, you know, that's, that's the last thing these people need. I mean, they've got enough on their plate. They don't need something else to take care of, you know, that's not offering, um, direct, consistent benefit to them. Um, wow. So the, the, when, when, um, what would it be, does it even make a difference if they have some dog experience, the family, or if they just never had a dog and came across hurt from somebody and so on? Which one, which one, which one would you rather take? It's a great question. You know, I say it's a great question because we've, um, we've had a lot of experience with both. And, um, I'll be honest with you, um, someone who comes into this with, um, first and foremost, very realistic expectations about the capabilities and limitations of a service. Um, it's who I want to work with. Um, secondly, I want somebody who has an open mind. Um, uh, three, I want somebody who, um, is willing to, um, you know, allow us to help. Um, and, and, and that's important. And I say that because, you know, there are a lot of people, uh, who are incredibly guarded, uh, for a variety of reasons. And all of, all of those reasons are, um, uh, legitimate, you know, really in most cases, they're legitimate reasons that they're guarded. Uh, when it comes to that, uh, that, that person on the spectrum, you know, they want to ensure that everything is, is, is as best it can be for them. But, um, we've had, we've had families who have never owned a dog before. Um, I tell this story, you know, of, of the, one of the early ones we did.

And, you know, they're asking questions like, where do we set the food bowl? You know, to, to, to someone like us. I mean, that's, it's not something that we even really think about, but to them, they had to make sure that they got that right. And, and, and they're, they didn't even have enough experience to say, Hey, you know, where do we, where do we put the food bowl? Where do we keep the dog food? You know, um, and, and man, they, they had so much success, uh, with that dog. Um, that dog was such a great fit for them. They loved that dog. She, she passed away, I think at around 11, 10 or 11 years old. Um, she, she went with and worked with that, that kid and, um, actually sort of provided support for the, for the whole family, uh, for many, many years. Um, but you know, we've had, um, we've had people who have multi-dog households, um, where it's not the best fit. Yeah. That can get complicated. They've had plenty of dogs before they grew up with dogs. They've been around them all their life, but they come with so many bad habits, um, that they really sort of interfere with what that service dog's able to do. So, um, you know, there's, there's no perfect situation obviously. And we've seen it work really well with both, um, individuals who've had dogs, dog experience and dogs before. Yeah. Those who've never had. Wow. Yeah, that's kind of like I, I, going back in my time when we used to train guide dogs, it was, I couldn't tell sometimes, uh, people that had dogs and people that didn't have dogs. One of the problems that I used to come across, there was, uh, it's just kind of, you know, not a good feeling was when the person did need the dog, but the dog was treated as a, and, and you, sometimes you can have this in, in the police world as well. Like it is just a piece of equipment, a tool or something just to have when you need, but not really appreciate that. It's a living being that needs not just food, not just, you know, and, uh, um, I'm sure you've had this too, right? Um, I've seen it with, as you mentioned, I've seen it with working dogs. Um, and I've seen it with a few of the, the other types of, of service dogs that we train. Um, but that's the one thing I love about training service dogs for particularly kids, uh, and young adults with autism spectrum disorders is, you know, one of, one of the sort of, I hate to put it, one of the side jobs, uh, for this dog, uh, in most cases, not all, but most cases is, you know, a social draw. It's a social draw for these kids and young adults.

Um, you know, the, the, these individuals oftentimes are isolated, uh, they have a lot of friends, uh, they don't see a lot of interaction in public, uh, for a variety of reasons. And then all of a sudden we put this fluffy dog with them. And now all of a sudden people are, people are paying attention. They're interacting. They're talking to this kid where they never would have before, even to ask, Hey, can we pet your dog? Or what's your dog's name or, you know, what type of dog is this? And then, you know, these dogs, um, are, are also serving in a lot of cases, again, not all, but in a lot of cases as a, a bit of a playmate with, with these children. And, and the, you know, their ability to play is wonderful. I mean, it's absolutely wonderful for, for both sides of it, right? The dog, the dog benefits from it, the kid benefits from it. Um, so, you know, unlike some of the guide dogs and other service dogs, the, those that are, they're working with, um, the people with autism spectrum disorders, they, they get to be, they get to be dogs a little more. And, uh, that's one of the things that I really like about it. True. Yeah. Yeah, that's very true. I have, I like, I have, um, I mean, I have all interest of a, literally any kind of dog training, but, um, for some reason, like, even if, when I look back here, even in my library, I have a bunch of books on autism. Because there is like, okay, behavioral issues in autism, um, it, it, it, it just because, the, I guess, learning principles and the way you will educate and the way you will interact with a kid with autism. Like, there's certain things that you have to understand and know what you can and what you shouldn't. And, and, and, and so, so it's, it's fascinating to me. And that's kind of where I was like, man, this is so exciting that, uh, what is the most challenging you would say? I, I'm sure that, that it's not one thing and it's not an easy, easy one to, to just pinpoint to one specific. But where do you, like, in, if, if you, in average can say, where would be the challenging situations between the kid and the dog? Um, good question. There, there, there, you know, there's a few things, um, where we, where we run into issues or run into issues in the past. And, um, one of those is, you know, where, where the kid's really too young. Um, and, and there's, there's little or not, not the, not the right connection between the dog and the kid, just because of, just because the kid's not yet ready to accept the dog.

And, and number two, um, you know, I think a lot of those kids, their, their behaviors haven't really developed in a way that we have the ability to train the dog to mitigate them. So, um, we, we try to steer clear that, you know, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of folks out there who say we don't train dogs for kids that are too young. Their idea of too young is seven or eight. Our idea of too young is way younger than that, you know, um, and there's a lot of organizations who won't train dogs for individuals who are aged out as they put it, um, and aged out maybe 13 or 12 where, um, you know, we've, we place dogs with people who are much, much, much older than that over the years. Um, so that's, you know, those behaviors not being developed in the kid being a little too young is probably the biggest, um, hurdle. That's really very difficult to get over. So, you know, we typically encourage people to re-apply. That totally makes sense. What about space? Like, like, like, like, let's say the family have, uh, some really small apartment in, in the city, or they have like a really big country. Like, tell me about that. Cause I'm thinking that that could create issues in both ways. Um, we've done both. So we've, we've placed, um, we placed dogs on huge ranches in Texas, um, in, in families that have multiple kids. We've placed dogs in, um, condos and apartments in Manhattan. Uh, so, uh, we've been, we've been successful in both. But the biggest thing I think, uh, with that is again, going back to really sort of understanding the lifestyle and, and then picking the right dog. That's going to be a good match. Yeah. So we, like I said, we've made it work. Um, it's a lot harder to condition a dog to, you know, it's a lot harder for us in North Carolina and the rural area of North Carolina. So it's, it's more difficult for us to prepare a dog for Manhattan than it is, uh, for a ranch in Texas. But, you know, uh, the reality is we, we put that dog on a plane and, and we take it to Manhattan and we spend four or five days and we take it to Times Square and we take it to other places to make sure that it's, it's going to be, um, environmentally stable. And going back to the question that I had with, as far as where do the dogs come from? So with us, they come from a variety of sources. I'll be honest with you. We have, um, we have a number of breeders that we've had, um, the, the fortune to develop relationships with over the years. That's where a majority of our dogs come from. Um, these are the level of doodles that I was going to steal one when I was there at your place.

Yeah, we, you know, so we do, um, you know, a lot of people ask us, so what do you train? Is it labs? Is it labradoodles? We, we don't have a breed of choice. We really don't. Uh, we trip, we do train doodles. We, we train standard poodles. Um, we do a lot of sporting breeds, uh, Labradors, golden retrievers. Um, we have trained, um, we trained a lot of dogs that most people wouldn't simply wouldn't, um, um, wouldn't pick. Uh, we trained a, uh, uh, we trained a Y Mariner one time. Um, and, and we picked this, this particular one runner because this dog absolutely was so energetic and wanted to be active all day and wanted to run and wanted to, you know, engage with a person like all day long. Um, now, as you, as you know, that's not going to be a great fit in most circumstances. It's just not, it's going to be way too much. Most people are not going to have the time to fulfill that dog's needs. Um, but we ended up placing that dog with a, an autistic girl who I think at the time was, this was maybe 13. Um, and she ran marathons. So, you know, we needed a dog that was, that was, uh, you know, capable of keeping up with her and, and man, it was a match made in heaven. Those two loved each other. Again, she, she worked that dog and worked with that dog until his later life. He's again, he's passed away, but, uh, uh, yeah, I mean, it remarkable fit, but wouldn't fit in 95% of the houses of the people that we, that we work with. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, it's a very, very interesting. Would, uh, what about the, like the size of the dog? Size is definitely a factor. Yeah. Um, you. Yeah. Yeah. And it really depends on what, you know, again, it depends on that individual and what we're going to be training this dog to do. Um, like my guess would be that you need kind of a sturdy dog or, or like when, when I think of hearing dog, I'm thinking, okay, pretty much any dog, but any little dog loves to kind of play around being a hearing dog.

Of böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle böyle foot 225 i mean yeah they're they're big big big kids and then you know we've had others that are in their 20s and they're 4 8 85 pounds um so you know a lot of factors go into um size and again it depends on skill set i'll i'll go ahead and i'll go ahead and say it you know it's somewhat deemed by quite a few people to be somewhat controversial um but for many many years we've had a tremendous amount of success with what we refer to as tethering and tethering is a process oftentimes that starts off with the the individual and the dog being physically attached through a short line and a harness um the primary reason for it is because um you know these these these young folks will bolt across a parking lot or bolt across a roadway or you know they're engaging in behaviors that potentially incredibly dangerous and uh you know we've we've gotten a lot of pushback over the years for doing that um our our objective with all of these all of these young folks and all these individuals the objective is to go from having them tethered to a dog to tethering them and them managing the leash with help and eventually them just managing managing the leash and you know working and and having this dog heal with them do we always

get there no uh is that always our objective end goal yeah it sure is um so you know if we've got kids that are uh you know i mean some of them are both when i say they're bolters they man they're quick they're athletic um and and you've got to have a dog that is capable of um stopping that so yeah in in a lot of these cases we have to have dogs that are sizable uh good structure about them um dogs have to be and very sound as far as temperament right yeah because like like when i'm thinking of um let's say seizure alert dog they they can be borderline spooky but because of that they are so aware and they freak out and they they get to naturally and then with a little reinforcement they start to really be good alerting but that wouldn't be a good idea for for for what you're talking about no no and we do uh to that point talking about you know a lot of these individuals are affected by autism and seizures so we end up doing uh what we call combinations right so this dog is multi multi-task trained to do to do both that's very interesting because i i just always kind of go back to you know my guide dog years of people always think of somebody being blind and man being blind comes from so many different reasons and comes with so many other package like a full package of of of problems and illnesses that you know that when you think about it the blindness is like the the easy problem that they are having you know so that that's a whole other thing because anytime we we think of any type of service dog i mean you're fortunate if there is one or only two problems it typically it's not as easy as as that and and that makes it really challenging and very interesting but but it is very challenging and yeah you just reminded me of this it's crazy um how long how long would you take on average what what what does it take to where you say you know i feel i feel good about it i i can step away um as far as the training of the dogs yeah yeah like like usually usually somewhere between 12 and 16 18 months so so it's pretty tasking yeah that's pretty that's what would be the like uh would you would you consider dog that's four or five years old for that type of work that that has the like you you're saying well i wish that i was a two-year-old or a one-year-old but he's four would you consider it or no um no and and i'll say i'll tell you why because we do get that we do get that request from time to time people have existing dogs and we do offer to train people's existing dogs if that dog um it meets certain criteria uh one of them has to be age and and it's not that the four-year-old dog

can't perform the tasks it's not that they can't be trained it's not that they can't do the job um i'm um this is me being uh me making the decision um that i'm not going to allow this person to invest all of this time money and resources in a dog that they're not going to get a full working life out of so you know they're by the time this dog's four and then we take it in to train it now it's five and a half they're simply not going to get the return on investment that that they should and and i don't want to put them in that position and then have them look back and say i really wish they would not have allowed me to do this you know i feel like i was shorted of you know four years or two years or whatever it means that's cool i mean that makes sense really that's kind of almost with with anything it's just it's unfortunate that the lifespan of a dog man it's just really unfortunate i tell you i have a dog right now that i just posted on my facebook for my breeding she just had her 18th birthday 18 18 yeah wow and of course she she you know but 18 i mean and it it's a i always think that if a as a breeder if we start paying more attention and we start to really be careful and and keep selecting for longevity because you cannot have longevity without health right i mean it's just not going to happen it will break down much sooner than that something will being the back being the hips being the something will break if you cannot go to 18 years on a dog but i i i do believe that we can collectively start to select for longevity and and increase the working lifespan of a dog by at least two three years more if if collectively we start to work on this what what are your thoughts on that well i think i think lots of things have been uh accomplished over the years through selective breeding um i don't know that there's been enough emphasis on longevity right unfortunately and this is just my opinion but unfortunately way too many people are are focused simply on confirmation and you know that outward appearance because let's be honest in in most circumstances that's what's going to sell um but yeah i think there's definitely an opportunity to increase longevity amongst breeds if if that seems to be more of a focus and and and i'm talking not like by doing some voodoo and and changing the diet and you know how the anti-aging now it's all pronounced with humans and there is these people that spend literally billions of dollars on on on have a whole team of I'm just talking this genetically kind of you know like

where I come from kind you know we stay in Europe Mediterranean whatever there is all this what people believe they are really all people there that are typically older than other parts of the world and and and it just would be so cool to have a dog that's older but it's still capable to function because the I think their understanding continues to grow and their knowledge expands and they really start to become like little people I mean more than the six years old you know but it's just the they're giving up and and I can only imagine how cool that would be to have this three more years of working lifespan in in any any type of dog being police being service dog being hunting or anything you know even like my little chihuahua it could be so amazing but now with so so you guys do also hearing dogs how does the does the like the people that come to the school are there of any help how how is everything working is it intertwining some way or how how do you guys have the structure of I mean because it's a big operation you're doing quite a few things in there yeah and it's it's it's all interconnected it is all interconnected so we you know we have a very sort of structured program for our students but it's you know it's difficult to teach students about police dogs if you're not training police dogs and it's difficult to teach them about service dogs if you're not training service dogs so you know our our place is is a little bit unique in that we you know we have an entire division dedicated to police and military working dogs we have an entire division dedicated service dogs so when when people come to to school here to our program they get you know they get a chance to be completely immersed if you know if they if they wish in those facets of the business to include our you know our pet dog programs and you know how do we work with the clients and how do we work with the dogs and how do we deal with behavior cases and you know so you know even like lessons going into people's homes and doing those individual private lessons with people the students students are required to attend at least one of those during the program um they can attend more but uh you know what they're they're required to attend one and they're created on on that attendance there so yeah we try our best to immerse them in as much as we possibly can going back we'll get to the school again but going back to the service dogs is that united states only or do you go how far would you go we'll go as far as uh as we need to uh no we have we have delivered dogs internationally um we do we do

more in the us obviously but no we've delivered to um canada and other countries mexico um so yes we puerto rico uh other caribbean islands we so we we're willing to offer global delivery um but as you know uh you know a lot of a lot of countries even some in europe don't recognize service dogs the same and they don't have the same yeah they don't have the same uh protections as they do in the us and also man i don't even want to go there at least not yet but also europe having all the the problems with tool restrictions and bands and what is okay and what is not okay i mean that top set that that's just creates one extra problem and and a big problem i would think no it does but you know and i know you said we'll get to it later but yeah just having a conversation this week um there's a push and again controversial full transparency here uh this sort of goes along with the tethering um you know we we use training tools with service dogs we use training tools with service dogs on a pretty regular basis but there is a there is a movement uh amongst some of the larger organizations to uh restrict and and and ban training tools specifically with service dogs and uh i think i think i think that creates a situation where it's going to be incredibly difficult um for certain individuals to be able to get a dog that is best suited for them because they're now limited in what other resources that they have available to them there's it seems to be seems to be pretty taboo you know it's just uh oh training tools yeah okay but you should never use them with service dogs you know there's so many people that believe that um i do not agree with that position that's just my personal opinion uh i don't agree with it at all and we've been able to do you know we've been able to do some really really really great things with um service dogs and been able to put them in situations where they have the opportunity to to all uh provide assistance and help for individuals because we were able to um more clearly communicate with that particular dog yeah no i that's kind of funny we don't need to convince each other this but but but man it's it's it gets frustrating with this because uh i i know like i really like the guide dog stuff is so interesting for me that there sometimes there are days that i'm like i should just take a dog and just train it because of what i know today comparing to who i was 20 years ago like i would just be so interesting for me to to do it so i do pay attention to how what what goes on in the country and around the world and i have had the opportunity to go to

some of schools in the country and outside and looking at what they do today comparing to what the dogs were able to do 20 years ago it's so dramatically different the quality the quality to where a guide dog today in most places of the world can only do a specific memorized routes from here to the store or to the bank and back home and god forbid there is a construction on the sidewalk we may not even know how to navigate it because it just comes out of nowhere we we used to train and like even on a preliminary because we had like a couple of different tests and on a preliminary test which is halfway through the training just to see where we are and you would put the blindfold get you on a little bus and drop you off and you find your way back to the school the school that was a preliminary work i mean you are when you're talking about orcas in sea world and training in the open ocean very much the same thing and what is happening right now because of of i i'm that that's my understanding i'm not 100 sure but yeah it's interesting you say that talking about being in the open ocean with orcas you know and and and the ability to do that with a guide dog i had uh i had the privilege to uh interview you got me that podcast and we have to you have to tell me all about this yes yes yeah trevor trevor lives in charlotte uh his name's trevor thomas incredibly interesting guy he uh when i talked to him he was on his second guide dog so he's he's of the uh of the class you're talking about where his first guide dog came many many years ago and um and even even in in that podcast he he where we interviewed him he talks about how you know he searched and searched trying to find organizations to provide a dog and nobody wanted to because they knew what he wanted to do with that dog and um they're like no it's not safe you can't do it we're not going to give you a dog but he you know he he persevered he finally found an organization they provided him with his first dog and um he he worked with that dog he got accustomed to that dog um well backstory on trevor he was uh uh he lost his vision uh at a little later stage in life he wasn't born blind but prior to that he was an adrenaline junkie uh he raced cars and jumped out of airplanes and you know so um he he got his first service dog he he got comfortable with it and uh he hit the appalachian trail and uh you know he he circumnavigated the appalachian mountain trail from georgia to maine entirely by himself only with the assistance of an iphone and his service dog and you know there's as you know there are people who struggled to to to get

from one end of that to the other who are sighted people and and when he finished he went to uh the pacific coast trail the colorado mountain trail and he's he's he's probably hiked more of those trails than most people who can see and he's done it single-handedly with the help of only a guide dog so yeah i mean that's that's that's going on the way i will i will put a link to the podcast uh i mean jason's gonna give you the names and everything but we will have the link and it's this is really worth uh listening it's just a brilliant story um i wasn't even thinking about this and i'm glad that this comes up because it's just such an amazing story and and yeah going back to to tools and training and you know like you you create limitations for yourself when you do that and and that's kind of where we are with with guide dogs it's it's a very unfortunate that even that the young trainers that are training guide dogs right now i watch them and they they really don't know what is possible this is kind of the sad part they don't have a clue what is actually possible what a well-trained dog can do that you can you can drop me in chinatown in san francisco or in in whatever you want to do i will get out i will get to where i want to be and it's a little bit sad because ideology takes it this way but anyway let me you know uh when when i was back at at your place and we had drinks and we were talking dogs and um um the tell talk to me about the the police side of things and i know there is a big component of the detection stuff that i am very curious um but but what what's going on with the what are you doing with the police dogs um so police dogs uh we uh you know we we offer uh in name the same same type of police dogs most people do uh dual purpose single purpose dogs bomb dogs drug dogs um so a variety of things we also do um search and rescue dogs um on that side of the house as well um we we sort of believe our forte is really sort of the detection part of it i'm i'm incredibly passionate about um the detection side of of things uh i think there's uh so much there uh that to me to me detection the detection part of of of the industry is is like space we or the ocean there's so much of it we we hadn't had an opportunity to explore we've not been able to um in my opinion we've not tapped into the um dog's ability um in a way that i think there's a possibility to um i think i really think and i may have mentioned this before i think that's one one portion of the industry that has been for some reason or another oversimplified um and meaning when i say oversimplified

what i mean by that is uh you know i think it's it's something that people say oh training a bomb dog training the rogue dog yeah that's that's that's easy you know doing this or that or this is hard um where you know again a position i don't necessarily agree with i think protection is incredibly complex um i think there's a huge need and this is again my opinion but a huge need for the industry to create um a bit of a shift um to be more and i don't want to use the word science because i think that has been just completely worn out but systematic i think more systematic about how we approach detection dogs um there has been a lot of data and a lot of research and a lot of um uh you know a lot of a lot of information and data that has come from operational environments you know i think that is you know a lot of people when it comes to detection dogs a lot of people want to look at what happens in the lab their lab but they they they really sort of negate those things that happen in the field every day or in an operational environment every day um and i don't think i don't think i don't think we should be able to cherry pick our our information that way i don't think we should cherry pick data that way and i think uh um i think i think again there's a lot of space with protection for us to be a lot more systematic about it um for us to have a much greater understanding um i just simply don't believe it's it's as yeah we haven't we have a lot of people yeah i i agree we haven't reached the the potential of how to do it better efficiently and how to really go to a to a more uh to that other level of what is possible right yeah and that's the thing that gets me you know it doesn't seem that way in the sport world so much but uh and i don't we we can talk about sport world versus uh police dog world later if you want um you know it seems like a lot of the competition folks focus on how to do it better whereas a lot of the a lot of the industry in regards to police dog particularly police talk side is how do we do it quicker just because we can doesn't mean we should it first and foremost um and you know our process for training dog police dogs and detection dogs is um on average uh about four to five times longer than everybody else's industry standard or the you know everybody else's sort of baseline for training those dogs um i like that i tell you why i mean i'll let you speak about it but i i just like to train longer no matter what it is and i i and speaking for myself i'm i'm consider myself a way above average level of dog trainer i can do things very fast but there is a

a difference when you take the time that's needed to create what you need to create and somehow in and it's not just detection this is just across the board there is this race of how who can make it faster it's ridiculous it's like okay make it faster but make it be as good then you get my attention better or better sorry i interrupted you yeah no it's um you know it's also been my experience that in a lot of cases the faster a dog learns something the faster they forget it um you know so when it comes to again particularly detection but as a general rule the police dogs even service dogs faster is not always better but the the thing the thing of it is uh and i'm not complaining by any means but um you know the industry the market drives this this sort of time frame and the market says oh well it takes x to turn x period of time to train police dogs and then you know we get a call and we're like hey you know we were looking for this dog and you know when can we get it we say oh well it's gonna be 20 weeks or 16 weeks or whatever and they're like wow wow what takes you so long um well i can i can explain what takes so long i can explain why we take that long and i can explain um what we've done to determine that we should be taking that long if if people give me you know the opportunity to explain it but you know most of the time you're not willing to um and that's okay um because i have found um over the years that uh particularly particularly with the police dogs uh and the military working dogs it is in my opinion more fulfilling for me to be able to sell dogs and sell training to individuals who are more open-minded and um more willing to be educated they're more probably more educated buyers uh and that for me is um again it's just it's just oh that's rewarding it's a better situation for you yeah i mean that's just just a pleasant uh yeah for no question about that um what do you think about who i mean there's just there quite a bit of variation of one approach of teaching detection but there let's say there is like maybe four kind of or three quite different i wouldn't say radically different but there is there's some there's some very interesting things and then you have the old 70 year old lady with her little dog doing iksy nose work and it's doing better than the the dog that's been through class and and selected and so on and so on and she has no idea what she's doing a lot of times but she can kick their asses sometimes you know yeah yeah you're right um i i was in a conversation about this not not that long ago um what you just said sort of reminds me of

that conversation it's a little off topic but um i won't mention names but you were you may remember there was a there was a show um i don't know how many seasons maybe one or two seasons of this particular show um that was on if i'm not it was on network tv a couple years back where they had uh during the show they would have these competitions and they would have police dogs and civilian dogs and the dogs would have to perform uh you know perform these uh detection problems and then patrol type problems and you know as you said that the civilians were kicking their asses not every time not every time but sure of course but but pretty consistently and this is on national tv and our nation's law enforcement's getting their ass kicked by some you know competitive dog owner and and you know i think that in itself sort of speaks volumes because the reality is it shouldn't be that way yeah i mean at least shows that there is there is more to to improve there is more to learn there is always cool ideas and and what do you think is like if if you what comes to mind in the detection work in the military and the police type of detection work that almost seems like it's set on stone but it's so misguided so misleading that it's it's kind of like a myth that nobody that people can actually think about it and be like i don't know why we're doing this but everybody else is doing that what comes to mind so much um there's actually so much um probably the most predominant one um is and i'm i'm gonna get a lot of hate for this oh yeah we can we can cut it because i always do say it no you don't need to cut it i say um is is the system that that's been around the industry forever and it's called the stew method or cocktail method of imprinting dogs tell me a little bit about it yeah yeah you know basically it's you take all the odor all these not odors you take all these materials all these bomb materials or all these drug materials you combine them all together and then you imprint a dog for a period of time with this understanding or this belief that the dog is somehow magically capable of doing division and separating and sort them in its brain in in files yeah yeah and there's a there's a couple things about that uh the first thing is again it's pretty industry standard it's pretty common practice for people in that industry to do it that way but but what i often ask people to do is to look at why why are we doing it that way what is the advantage of combining all those odors and imprinting the dog

for a period of time versus teaching those others individually now granted bomb dogs there's there's quite a few odors versus our drug dogs and the only two responses that you will get is one and i hate this one the most it's because we've always done it that way and the second one is it saves a tremendous amount of time but there's been research done that shows that it's an ineffective way of teaching odored adults plain and simple the the it's pretty clear that it's a it's it's not the best optimal system but the reality is people continue to do it every single day yeah because just as you said i mean you have two two arguments everybody seems to be doing it that must be working for them and it saves a lot of time who who wouldn't go for that right oh man yeah um and there's this race you know there's been this race i've been talking about this for a while too um this was god this was 10 years ago yeah 10 10 2014 2013 2013 12 years ago um there was a claim by somebody and i won't name names um and and they claimed that they could imprint a bomb dog on 15 odors in 45 minutes just a 45 minute training session they could teach this bomb dog 15 odors and i heard that statement it was uh made very publicly on tv and conferences in different places and then um after after a number of months again i'm still going to conferences and and i'm always again drawn to detection information and presentations and and there's a different person completely different organization and they're claiming they can do it in 30 minutes and then later on it the number just keeps getting lower and lower and then eventually i attended a class and i just had to do it and the class was how to imprint a drug dog in 10 minutes that was literally the name of the class this was given at a national police dog training conference that's that just sounds like a social media uh clickbait yeah and it does um but again you've got you've got people who are considered here's my problem you've got people who are considered to be experts who are being um positioned at these at these training conferences as experts and they're putting out information that is flawed at best and they're putting them out to a very young very impression in most cases young impressionable group um of of handlers who are taking this information as you know 100 of course because when it comes out you you you are attending a uh uh conference and and there is a presenter and basically if you're a presenter there is some level of credibility that just comes along without any further question right and these are these are the kind of

the dangerous things about conferences that you do need different ideas even if there's sometimes really way out there but how do you sort them out and and yeah this is a tough one um yeah the conference is tough it's it's a but there is no um you know why i i i don't know like you you keep saying i shouldn't say this and i don't i actually really don't even know where i it was some podcast i listened to and it was on detection and when you mention imprinting and you know you will have the leader of puppies and they will eat from their little dishes and under the dishes there are different orders and i'm like what are we doing like like what kind of like how do you even do you even convince yourself that that there is something to that have you heard of this this is like uh it's been going on for a really long time along with along with a lot of other things you know and and that's the thing it it happens throughout the industry it really does but it seems to plague it's a big the the detection community more so than anybody else and that is it's actually a number of things it's these myths urban legends and wives tales it's these truths that continue to be perpetuated even though there's no solid information to back any of it up number one and then number two is this shiny object syndrome for lack of better way to put it um you know everybody seems to be attracted to the newest latest thing even though and whether that be whether that be a device whether that be you know a training device or training tool or a system or methodology even though when we look at it face value it's clearly a mess it clearly isn't going to work it clearly has little to no opportunity to lead us to success but people seem to swarm on it simply because it's the newest thing or it's the it's the thing they continue to see on social media or this person said it or this person selling it yeah and there is that human nature thing of like what if what if really it is the the latest new invention and and i'm missing out but yeah you can try and and like i i all dog training is about how do you tell the dog how do you instruct a dog in the way well because you like let's say i i just had this uh conversation i think it was with one of my graduate students here about detection and like how easy it is if we have let's say five coffee cups here and one has coffee and the other ones have something else and i tell you which one has the coffee and you smell and you you know you

cannot mistake the cup of coffee among everything else and when you think about detection it really comes down to how well you can explain to a dog what the goal what the objective is the only difference is that the dog cannot be instructed and guided the same way as i just said it in one sentence to a person and when when that starts in your head you can pretty much win away all the bullshit of of some some some of the things in in different systems and approaches simply because as a whole the system may work and of course you see that yes they're producing dogs and yes these dogs are successful or at least most of them are but there is a lot of that is not needed in the whole system so-called right yeah and a lot of that's you know the biggest problem that i see one of the one of the bigger problems i see with with all these methods and systems is you know they all sort of hinge on human influence and and the reality is is with detection dogs you know specifically with detection dogs there are some other dogs that i feel like fall into this category but i think it's it's it's most most important for detection dogs we're asking those dogs to go out we're asking them to do a job we're asking them to do that job in very demanding environments and to give us information very clear decisive information without any human influence so so so if our objective is to have a dog that's capable of working in these demanding environments and making good solid decisions without a lot of errors um and and leading us to targets consistently with no human influence then why is it that our training programs involve so much human influence our objective should be to train the dog teach the dog make it clear to the dog what the job is and give them the opportunity and give them the knowledge and power to go execute that job without any influence from humans because that's what we're going to ask them to do uh when their training is done yeah i i like this conversation unfortunately a lot of the system starts with a huge emphasis of hey i'm gonna show you how to find the other right it's like it is the foundation and then the moment that the eventually starts to struggle what it's going to do it's going to go back to foundation hey i need help because you taught me you know right absolutely yeah so much so much information that the dogs are given in these early stages of training from the human from the handler and then even during maintenance training you know every time the dog struggles whether

this dog has you know been been in training for three months or three years every time that dog struggles that handler wants to step in they don't want the dog to fail they don't want them to be wrong so they step in and help them the reality is is that in real world operational environments we don't have the information that we can use to help them so why are we doing it from the very first day that we begin to work with these dogs and i think we as an industry need to really sort of revisit how we're doing things our detection dogs are trained and we're doing it from day one not only are our dogs trained to to understand that we're not going to help we go so far as to teach the dog that we will give them bad information we will lead them to the wrong thing more often than not so the dog simply learns very early to just ignore all the humans in this environment because they're all liars and they're all going to give me bad information so let me just rely on the things i know that work and that's my old factory system and my cognition and then i'll get paid i love it even though i don't know exactly just the steps because there can be many up you know again like that there's many ways to roam although some never get there some are very very bumpy but but thinking this way just fits how i think of it and and i think really just just just just this last five minutes what we said for any detection company if they focus on how we could do i bet you they can come with some better way of what they're doing today on their own without without no other help from outside you know but it's the it just starts with a different way of approaching the whole the whole process it is fundamentally different yeah and the dogs are capable of it we just have to give them the opportunity and give them the we give them we need to give them the the the autonomy and that's where i think a lot of people struggle because because traditional systems of training detection have always had substantial human influence right i will i would say pretty much or everybody starts with insane amount of hey i'm gonna show you how this works i'm gonna show you which one i'm gonna i'm gonna i am pay attention to me and then with every day you're starting to fade this away but that's your foundation anytime there is a little bit of a you know lack of success a little bit of stress where do you go you go to your foundation with everything you do you go to your foundation very interesting one what about so as far as the the detection dogs

what do you what what type of dogs and where do you get them and and how how does that work what do you like what kind of dogs um my answer to this is very similar to the one i gave you on service dogs i think it uh i think it really depends on what our what our final end product needs to look like so we um uh we do a lot of labradors i will say that we uh we do breed labradors we breed working line labradors um we've kept bitches for many years now because there has been such a shortage of good quality working labs um over the years um we actually just went to uh went to europe i think it was in may or june of last year right before the cdc changed their uh regulations that's such a okay we went and picked up two labradors from uh europe uh and brought them back with us uh sort of right under the wire i think we were the week before the regulation changed or two weeks something like that but uh yeah we uh we do we do mamas we do shepherds we do crosses um as both single and dual purpose dogs um size gender those are not as important i'm assuming what's that size and gender are not critical right no no not at all um i i'll be honest with you know i have a and this is just personal preference but um i have a preference for females particularly for detection um it seemed to be a little easier to manage sometimes uh the females do for me um and um but um i can see that i mean i mean i really could see that not that i have exactly i can break it down why but i can see how a female would be more game about this kind of stuff than some boy that's gonna oh but what is that right yeah yeah yeah but a lot of a lot of your law enforcement uh a lot of a lot of working dog people shy away from the females um for whatever reason but uh yeah i seem to have a preference for them particularly in detection but uh yeah we um we train a variety of dogs we do um we've done pointers german short hair pointers yeah i've i've listened a little bit here and there and uh there is this little kind of not necessarily a push but kind of being more aware of like why why are we not including some of those type of dogs in detection work um i think they're kind of entering a little bit the the field no they are um they are so number of years ago um labs were working line labs uh you know those suitable for detection were um you know pretty easy to come by i'll be honest with you they were very affordable really easy to come by um you just didn't see a ton of demand for them uh because people were uh really yeah it doesn't click it doesn't it doesn't match with what you think of

a detection dog right yeah yeah well that or police dog right so they wanted shepherds and malinois um and i'll be honest with you uh 15 years ago 90 of the single purpose detection only dogs that we were training were prick-eared malinois and shepherds now 90 percent of the single purpose 95 of the single purpose detection only dogs are retrievers or sporting breeds yeah so that that that was a big shift um but our malinois and shepherds and and prick-eared pastoral dogs they come from europe we get them from uh uh uh uh uh vendor in europe that i've been working with for gosh uh almost 20 years now um so um long long-standing relationship there uh i'm actually going next week to pick up tell me about selection tell me tell me about this this i'm curious about this stuff so you go you go you you have the drinks you have the things and here we go do do you go through the kennel or do they bring you the dogs and and how just break down one for me that's interesting always it either way it really doesn't matter um it to me it doesn't matter how um here's like i i will tell you where i'm going with this because i i i think that uh uh uh and again like once you have a very long relationship and and things you feel that both parties are honest and and there's there's just a relationship that's based on time um then then there is that fairness and honesty but still there is times where there will be that dog that they know that it's not good but they have masked it and they will present it as a good dog what does it take for you to recognize that that that's not going to be the dog i'm looking for before you bring it all the way back to home because they are masters of of making a dog to do the things that they expect you want to see here here's what so here's what i'll say there's a couple things about it number one i don't really deal with that probably so much as other people and here's why as i told you we started our business almost 20 years ago and we were new uh we i had been training police dogs i worked at a different place training police dogs before we started our business uh obviously when i walked away from that business i lost any connections i had with that business so i had to find a new fender out of europe and um we'd been in business probably four or five months and i received an email uh again keep in mind it's 20 years ago i got this email from a gentleman and um uh his english wasn't great even written english wasn't great um but i was in the i was in the market for a vendor so i communicated with him and i mentioned that his english wasn't great only because

he had apparently reached out to lots of different people in the u.s similar to us who were selling police dogs and none of them would give him the time of day because his english was so bad long story short we communicated via email talked on the phone a few times and he delivered dogs to me the very first time i bought dogs from him he delivered them to me in the u.s that's how eager he was to sell dogs period he was that eager he was starting his business about the same time i was starting mine he and i he and i made an agreement 20 years ago that if i ended up getting a dog that i couldn't use because of one reason or another that he would that number one i wouldn't pay him for the dog and number two he would pay to ship it back to europe that's an incredible motivator for a vendor not to send you a dog you cannot use wow yeah that's a that that definitely keeps everything in place because i mean you know you're in you're in this and and when when the vendor says okay well i'm giving you five really good ones you have to take number six also so that number six comes and now somebody goes to the school and typically it's the guy that has no idea what he's getting and and basically that six dog is just dragged all the way to becoming a a working dog on the street that everybody from the beginning knew that that's not the right dog but here he is on the street yeah yeah and i'll say i've been incredibly fortunate i've probably received two of those dogs in 20 years but here's here's what i'll also say um and i think this is this is kind of important to say um for the for the industry itself there's there's a lot of people and i'm i don't know if you've heard this but you know there's a lot of people talking here in the last four or five years about how there's no good dogs left in europe and europe's being wiped out and they're being depleted and you know it's just you can't buy good police dogs in europe particularly when the police dog side of things and and i'll be honest with you i don't believe that to be true at all i don't think that's true at all here's what i think has happened um and this is just my experience what i think has happened is there are lots of great dogs in europe there are lots of really incredible dogs in europe i don't think there are a lot of perfect dogs in europe because again you got to understand from my perspective i'm not buying title dogs i'm not buying pre-titled dogs i'm buying i'm buying green dogs the raw material the open book raw material absolutely raw material and i think it's an open book it's raw

raw material and you know as far as athleticism overall health drive requisite drives sociability environmental stability they're solid are they perfect dogs absolutely not here's what i think has happened i think over the years the the level of dogs uh the training the overall training and skill set of these dogs it has declined some i think that happened after 9 11. i think when 9 11 happened the market got depleted on some level because because all of a sudden yeah overnight everybody needed a bomb dog right so everybody's going to europe buying dogs and damn i remember this time i remember even even working at the piers with uh with the cruise ships i mean any any anything you walk a dog around you was a business at that moment yeah yeah and and um you know prior to 9 11 vendors like us uh you're going to europe and you're buying dogs that are two two and a half years old sometimes three and you're bringing them back to the us and you're you're bringing them in putting them in a program selling them to law enforcement everybody's happy law enforcement's willing to you know buy two three-year-old dogs because they understand that those dogs come with a level of maturity an aptitude for the work and they're just solid and the reality of it is what you see is what you get the dog's not going to change very much because he's two to an act well 9 11 happens the european market gets blasted pretty hard and you got vendors in the us who've been selling these two three-year-old dogs now all of a sudden they can't find them anymore they can only get dogs that are 10 11 12 13 months old so i actually yeah remember that's exactly how it went yes yeah so they convinced the u.s market hey here's what you need to do you need to buy this 11 month old dog or this 12 month old dog because you're going to get a longer working life out of it you're going to be able to work this dog for 10 years instead of eight why because you're getting it two years younger well we both know that that may not be exactly true so i think what has happened after after that's taken place over the years i think and and again i'll i'll catch some hate for this too i think those older more skilled dogs have definitely declined but i think the ability and skill amongst us-based trainers to build young dogs build raw material and turn them into remarkable and incredible police dogs i think that has has declined substantially and i don't think that there's enough people out there who are willing to take these younger dogs keep them for the period of time necessary to build them

and turn them into really good police dogs why everybody's got it in their mind that they've got to do it fast right we've got to buy them and buy them today sell them tomorrow and and and and that's in my opinion not what's best for the industry it's not what's best for law enforcement and i think these claims that there are no more good dogs in europe are untrue i think they're some remarkable dogs in europe they're no perfect dogs so when i test dogs i do what i call and this is sort of my term for it so it probably won't mean anything to anybody i do what i call an inventory selection test so when i test a dog i'm simply inventorying what skill sets it may have where other people do selection testing looking for the perfect dog i'm not looking for the perfect dog i'm looking for a dog that has enough uh drive and aptitude environmental stability and trainability that i can turn it into a really good police officer i'm not looking for a perfect dog and i think that's what what's happened too many people are looking for perfect dogs coming out of europe that have all these skills that they may have had 20 years ago i don't know why because these people weren't around 20 years ago i think they're hearing stories of well back in the day we used to get dogs from europe that did x y and z and and yeah he probably did uh the reality is those don't exist anymore so you know i think i think we as an industry need to need to improve on on our overall skill and ability to to really sort of build younger dogs that is an art form in my opinion it's it's way more art than it is science um you know people want to come in grab a dog not everybody there's too many people i think in the industry want to come in grab a dog strap a collar on it force it to do what they want it to do and it you know expect it to to come out of the back side of that a viable police dog right back in the day people were buying dogs whose requisite drives were so high that they could strap a prong collar e-collar on it they could level the hammer on that dog and you know that dog's wreck drives would diminish diminish diminish but but still would be just enough to be a police dog now what you're getting you're getting dogs here and you need to build them up which makes which calls for a better training yeah right better understanding and better training although somebody could argue well way back then when the europeans were selling dogs and the americans didn't quite understand didn't have the skill and they were just selling some actually not good dogs kind of the opposite of what you're saying a lot of times i i

would think they would think they would just sell oh yeah this is a good dog and you should take it and then here is a whole department with some just neurotic dogs that you know and and you start to kind of learn how to work with this type of dogs but that's not your average cool good working dog that you would train in a very different way than some neurotic basket right um and and so it kind of evolves in all sorts of directions um i remember i don't know if this is even now i kind of have stepped out of this a little bit but i know i know when i was you know i mean i'm coming from eastern europe i know like a lot of the slovenia slovakia i i lived in but i know i know you know like way back i mean we're talking 90s i've seen them like no you will retrieve a hammer or a prone collar just so it's metal and that's a a statement right there that's like this is the dog look he would everybody loved that p2p test yeah is that still going on not that i'm aware i don't i don't if so i've fallen out of that circle a long time ago okay but that was uh i mean you know everybody's trying to make money and everybody's you know it's a tough one and now that you mentioned the the restrictions with the travel and i think it's becoming more and more difficult so if you have to bring five dogs from anywhere in europe where do you go what what's the airline how what's the process how hard it is today compared to five years ago yeah so yeah it's a lot harder a lot harder um a lot of embargoes um you're going into a major city um you know for us sometimes atlanta uh depending on time of the year maybe chicago maybe detroit maybe so pretty much anywhere that it can work out yeah yeah so it really depends it's a lot more difficult than it used to be really really does um kind of backing up though kind of give you an example i'll give you i'll give you a real life example of sort of i think this sort of helps to solidify the statement i made earlier because again i know a lot of people are gonna a lot of people are not going to be very happy about what i said as far as our our current skill level in the u.s we need to be better trainers those are your words i think um i mean i think i i need to be a better trainer i mean well you know we all do all right to some level we we have to keep going right yeah but there's this dog right um belgian malinois two years old um imported from europe uh came from what appears to be you know pretty good stock uh came to the u.s it was a strong dog uh when i say strong dog very

very uh and i'm sure you've met this type of dog before uh they're mentally strong uh meaning that as long as you're fair with that dog you're never going to have an issue however if you're not fair uh pretty good pretty good chance you're you're gonna you're gonna be made aware that that dog does not feel like you were fair to it if you know what i mean you're gonna come they might come after you you've crossed the line yep yep yeah and as you know those dogs are out there long story short this dog was purchased um by an agency who spent uh 14 and i know this i'll tell you why i know it in a minute but they spent fourteen thousand dollars on this dog now this dog was purchased as a green dog for fourteen thousand dollars it was purchased from a u.s based vendor uh came from europe purchased from a u.s based vendor for fourteen thousand dollars it was uh purchased by an agency a federal agency uh they took the dog in uh they worked with it for several months and they gave it away they deemed it to be untrainable how do i know this they gave it to us richard within a week we were contacted by a local police department who had purchased a green dog another malinois another dog that's going to keep you honest uh and again these are not land sharks these are not man eaters these are dogs that again they're going to keep you honest if you're not fair with them um they're not docile i'll say that by any means um same very similar situation spent about 14 grand on this dog um that dog was then given um to a bigger agency and the bigger agency was going to train it from beginning to end for the smaller department they were going to train it free of charge they kenneled this dog and kept it and trained it for a little over a year at the end of that year they deemed it to be untrainable and they gave it to us they got two dogs right now that were given to us that people spent over over 10 grand for came in from europe they're both viable dogs they're both viable dogs because they were deemed to be untrainable so you know is the problem that there are no good dogs in europe anymore or is the problem simply as as we as we say that you know our our ability to work with these dogs and train these dogs and be very clear uh needs to get a lot better needs to improve and probably pretty quickly that's so difficult man that it's in this is in in in detection this is in sport world this is in you know like i'll give you pretty much probably exact same example with with me breeding selling a dog selling a puppy

and it just doesn't fit how the style of training is or the person has this vision of okay no there will be it's gonna be a smooth ride and everything there there cannot be anything bumpy along the way because because they there is this kind of twisted understanding that all these good dogs dogs they just flawless from from from from the beginning to to being ready for whatever the task is and that's just not the case there there is like a the uh i mean you have to recognize that just time and and you know sometimes my maturity um awareness all these things can click in a certain time and they may not be right at that moment present but the expectation so often destroys what is possible in the long run because the expectations are becoming very unrealistic and and i think as good as social media is in a lot of ways it also created this kind of false idea that that there is that possibility of just flawless like and here you are you can be a world champion or you can be the master of detection or whatever it is and you had just a little something here that's not real world that's just can like like you have to have a little understanding a little patience and you have to take a little time and typically when you do that that that's when the most wonderful things happen after that right yeah but they only put the best parts on social media i mean there's i i would consider myself a pretty good pretty good trainer reality is i can't train dog after dog day in day out without ever making a mistake i don't know that anybody can mistakes will be made nothing's perfect we have to identify the mistake recognize it own it and fix it and hope the dog forgives us for it like i mean that's a good trainer and just speaking about myself like i i like the bumpy road i i like to know that i can get where i'm going don't get me wrong but anytime there is a little bit of a oh that's the most interesting part that's like where you build whatever you need to build with that dog being trust being cooperation being whatever it is call it whatever engagement any all this salad word salad is that's like i don't know but this is the time when you and the dog from here end up here it it cannot even yeah it's very strange how uh impatient we have become and and same with the information i mean you i mean look at us i mean me included just swipe swipe this way this way boom boom boom boom and i and we're doing the same thing with dogs we're super impatient right now any any kind of training the struggles are beautiful

when you know that there is the possibility to overcome it and then you appreciate the struggle itself you don't look at it as a this obstacle that just destroyed everything because it comes out uh um i mean what comes out of struggle is just priceless in my opinion yeah you know the problem solving for me is is is really the best part to me the problem solving is the best part because because when you have a problem a number of things are going to have to happen you're going to have to you're going to have to put a lot of work and a lot of thought into why you have the problem how do you resolve the problem what is the plan what is the road to get you there and then it forces you to work more and work smarter with that dog and in doing that you oftentimes if you're doing it the right way you're oftentimes going to you to improve your relationship with that dog and take that relationship to a level you didn't have before the problem right kind of like a yeah i mean i mean even even human relationships you know it's it's the the the when the problem comes whatever the problem is that's when things get tested and that's when you know you know if both sides are willing and have a way to resolve and come out better or not and anytime you come out better there is no comparison of the the strength of of what has been accomplished from that point on let's switch gears let's go let's go iacp what what what made you take the position because this is not the easy position the organization the dead there is just a lot of you know like like there is growing pains there it is it's a it's a in my opinion organization that still hasn't quite find what it's possible and what where to go and and the power of it it's kind of you know for for a long time state okay yeah we are and we are doing this and this but but there is a potential there like a like a real potential but what what made you because that's just that's a that's a thing on top of everything that you're doing here you are you took off and you said okay i'm gonna i'm gonna go in and see what i can do to make the organization better what what happened well i'll have to back up a little bit um to how i ended up on the forward to start with because that's a that's that's a pretty interesting that was a pretty interesting transition um so like i said been a been a member for a really long time uh our business has been platinum gold platinum sponsors for a number of years many years um truly sincerely i believe wholeheartedly in the mission of the icp

i absolutely uh i sort of feel like it is on some level um in this sort of my opinion here but i feel like on some level it's really sort of the last stand against um restriction regulation you know it it's it's really the this probably the strongest and one of the only organizations out there that are fighting for the freedom of professionals to be able to utilize whatever resources they deem best for their dogs and clients to do the most good for the most people plain and simple i i've believed in that mission i've believed in those values for many many many years um a number of years ago we we uh as a business me personally i didn't feel like we were we were being uh represented very well by the organization let's be honest with but it just didn't uh uh and it got to the point where i got pretty upset about it so i i came to the board of directors of the icp initially as the disgruntled sponsor so that's the that's the sort of the funny part about it because i you know i had a lot of conversations with my wife and i'm like you know i think the organization is is kind of the the last stand that we have i think it's you know the only thing that's that's keeping you know nationwide training tool bands from just taking over tomorrow blah blah blah blah blah and i'm like but but i just feel like right now they're you know they're not not doing what they should so you know we talked about it and and and really sort of decided i had two ways to go we could just step away from the organization stop sponsoring it don't renew our membership or put my name in the hat to be on the board and see what happens and so i did and uh i got a phone call i was really surprised because i'll be honest with you um i i had had a few heated very heated discussions again because that's that's sort of the state i was in uh about our sponsorship and representation of our business and that sort of thing uh our membership um but i did get a call and they said yep we'll we'll have you on the board so i joined the board in january 2024. um i was on the board uh about a month and a half and they said hey look our secretary's leaving um in like two weeks we need somebody to step up and take that position i volunteered for that um i went on the board um with the um goal or objective of making significant and substantial change within the organization um so i was willing to really sort of volunteer and do anything i felt like i could do to make a difference uh and then as a lot of people know our president tracy at the time she had some things uh personal things going on that where she had to step away a

little early um and that was uh in middle into june um so i'd only been on the board for about six six months and um we needed we needed a new president and uh the balance of the board members um reached out to me and said hey look what do you think about this and we had a number of conversations and um i ended up taking that position july 1st um so i take this position july 1st and we've got a conference to put together first week of september uh with granted we'd already been working on it don't get me wrong we'd been working on it since the beginning of the year but now all of a sudden this is sort of kind of in my lap to make this a success and and and we did uh the conference was in portware texas uh you know based on all the circumstances it it went quite well um so that's sort of my journey from disgruntled sponsor to president of the acp okay okay how how does it feel like uh um as far as the people you're working with right now are you guys because i i tell you like i i i mean i i've been in so many different organizations and associations and and so forth and when it's volunteer type of work or even if it's not if there is a couple of people or even one person that kind of really dramatically deviates from from uh the collective idea it becomes a problem do you guys feel pretty connected and having some good idea where isp should be going now how how is that amongst yourself there yeah so um when i came on the board i think there were only five five four or five people uh because um you know it was it seemed like there was some difficulty in getting people to to come on the board um and you know with a lot of organizations you hear of conflict amongst boards and you know that sort of stuff um and and it seems like historically the icp has had some conflict amongst people on boards and people in committees and that sort of thing i'll be honest with you i've not experienced that at all since since i've since i've been on the board of the icp fortunately i i have not and it's it's been great um you got right now we got marlene fabian uh karina just just her term just ended and um serena and we've got some new folks coming on we've got a we now have a secretary we now have a treasurer um positions that were unfilled for quite some time um right now you know with the the folks who've been on the board for the last year we've got a a really cohesive group i feel like we got a really cohesive group lots of good communication going on where you know we i think we all um share the same vision for the organization uh in large part

um you know there's not a lot of conflict it's not no fighting i'm not saying we all agree on every single thing but we have the ability yeah we have the ability to to express our differences and and and resolve them and and make decisions based on what's best for the organization and what's best for the membership um we do have some new folks coming on the board uh which is pretty exciting i'm i'm pretty excited about it um we've got some new folks coming on uh counting our our secretary and officers we're going to be we're going to be at nine or ten folks on the board yeah starting 2025 so pretty excited about that um we're going to get more hands on deck get new ideas coming in um we've got some some folks who have been in the industry for quite some time uh some of them i just met didn't know about them but they they've been doing it as long as i have if not longer uh so they bring a tremendous amount of experience to the table and and we're we are super i am particularly super excited about where we have the opportunity to go that's great what do you think it's or at least i mean to to i guess twofold question what is most you think challenging for you as a president and then what what are the challenges of iacp as an organization like the the current status um challenges for me as president um honestly it's nothing maybe challenge is not the right word but like uh um where is the vision where is the do you have something where you're like that would be really cool but i don't think we can make that happen no i don't yet um i've not gotten there i think everything everything we've come up with i'm like it might take some time but we can get there we can have this organization has the ability to get there we absolutely do um we we've made a bunch of changes in the last six months we've gotten certifications back online we've uh we do have a new website we're still tweaking and working yeah still tweaking and working on that we're running a few little a few little tech issues that we hope to have resolved pretty soon got a new website up and running we've got conference scheduled for 2025 coming up in savannah in july and the lineup looks interesting it should yeah we're pretty happy people pretty happy with that yep tell me about the certification stuff because i i um and i'm sure many people are curious of of what what uh when we talk about certification what what are we talking about um so right as it stands right now um we have two certifications available um the first one is probably the the simpler of the two definitely the simpler of

the two and that's the uh what's referred to as the prong collar knowledge assessment and it is simply a knowledge assessment and it is um it's done online uh all you really need in order to to get through that assessment is some basic knowledge experience familiarity with you know best practices and uses with broncholine and the second one is the cdt certified dog trainer exam it is definitely more in depth uh it's going to require folks to you know have reference letters from clients and case studies that they uh complete and turn in we do now have that certification automated so it's all online and can be done and completed um and who evaluates who grades how how's what's going to be the back-end process of this how do you give somebody that uh i mean because it's a it's a like honestly i would be oof i would i'm getting goosebumps like because you have you're giving credential to somebody and and it's based on that test but you don't know necessarily the person is a person and and so on how how what what are you guys thinking um again the cdt requires a lot of information so we're looking at uh people cv resume background experience uh you know we're doing background checks on people to make sure yeah so again they're delivering these pretty um um significant case studies um um and and again getting feedback from those clients direct feedback from the clients that they worked with about the results etc etc um that then is all submitted to a panel of people and that panel changes because there's a basically a pool of people and if you were to submit a cdt you don't know which individuals within that group it's going to end up going to um but it's a group of individuals and even at the end you wouldn't know right right you know you'll never know no it's complete um it's all completely on the back end of it you would not know who graded your cdt um but uh it's going to go to at least three different evaluators and those three different evaluators are going to take independent looks and reviews of it and going to grade each section of it to develop a final grade once all three of them have a final grade those three final grades are combined in a metric and then you get a passing or failing score so it's it's intent i don't want to use the word intense it's definitely doable if you've been training dogs for a while you've got some experience working with clients um it's definitely doable um i don't want to i don't want to just sound that is something that i don't think acp had before right was that it was it was they had the cdt

before but it was it was incredibly cumbersome it re it required the person to you know email stuff in and mail stuff in and things would get lost in the mix and it was very complex and it got pretty complicated and created frustration so one of the things we did this year was we streamlined that process yeah so the difficult question that i would have maybe it's not difficult but but in our just in in like the the dog training community that actually does use some form of aversive in their training there is potential of abuse and often there is abuse how and is it even visible what what would aacp if anything i mean where how how would would that be something that aacp can say okay well we can revoke membership we can like like are there any conversations is that is that something of concern because that's like the probably one of the biggest uh um i think problems that if we can resolve to some extent we will be in a better place because i think it's important that somehow we we deal with that but everybody is afraid probably including myself to point finger at somebody else that has a business and is doing whatever unless like dogs are dying in their hands and and so on tell me about this what what are you guys thinking and doing so the um so the organization has um the organization has and has had uh an ethics committee part of ethics right something yeah so there's a there's an ethics committee right now marlene is um overseeing that particular committee that may change down the road but right now she's overseeing it um i don't know if you know marlene but she's she's also the one over the legislative committee and she does a fabulous job on that side of the house too um so the ethics committee uh is there primarily for the purpose of receiving um inquiries and information regarding you know again neglect abuse those types of things to um to sort of um to sort of give the organization a bit of uh component that allows us to police ourselves because again the last thing the organization wants is to have individuals who are in fact engaging in abuse and neglect as as a part of its membership plain and simple um do we get uh do we get complaints submitted through there yeah absolutely they're looked into um and you know oftentimes it's unfortunately pretty clear that there's some something going on however a lot most of the time that we get those uh you know face value you look at them the person's been arrested by law enforcement so forth and so on for neglect or whatever but when

we get them we look and they're not members of our organization so because of that we have no ability to to do really anything with it you know it's just sort of sort of filed away fortunately for us they're not members of our organization right so um but we do get those um and again if they are members the ethics committee has a very clear process that they would go through uh to make sure that those people if they're engaging in that type of stuff are not going to be members very long yeah i mean because sometimes also on the other side of things that there is probably a lot of false red flags to where you you just take a snippet of you just take a look at the right of five seconds of something and you're trying to make a conclusion of what that would look like 15 minutes later or a week later or two months later and and this this becomes so tricky and so difficult and kind of unfair to i mean hopefully nobody hopefully all of us have learned not to judge something by five seconds of of some video right it's just not the right thing to do um what about what what do you guys ever think of is there any communication i wouldn't even go that far to say collaboration but any form of communication with apdt or or any of of these organizations how how where are we standing with them today yeah no no not not that i'm aware of not at this time no no those those organizations who pretty are pretty clearly um yeah they have drawn a very deep line in the sand that it's just no not really even you know the the use of pain fear and purposeful discomfort and and all these things that actually when you read it when you hear it you will say yeah i agree with that but how do we go forward i mean what like like if if anybody that's listening to us talking and are not members of iacp at the moment why would why should they be a member well there are a number of reasons um um the first thing i would ask them to do is to go to the website and read the mission mission and values of the organization again that's what that's what drew me into the icp that's what keeps me um at this point working for the icp putting in the work every day for for the organization even though it's volunteer uh i get up and put in i put in some time for the organization every single day why i believe in i believe in the mission um i believe as a professional i should retain the ability again to make the decisions that i feel are best for for the dogs and clients that i'm working with period um if somebody agrees with that if somebody believes in that then they shouldn't hesitate

they should they should immediately click on the member section and and join plain and simple and it's not what is the membership i mean we're not talking i mean it's it's actually a symbolic sum it's it's really we're not talking something ridiculous but the numbers of membership actually really really matter for when when and then again like coming way back i don't even know why and how i got into the legislative committee but i remember us stopping few times those push for shock collar bands and in different areas in you know and it was iacp still has that image and power to put a stop on on kind of nonsense like this and say hey there is another side and i think just for that being a member to where it adds one more person in the numbers i think just that is a must for anybody that cares i don't know absolutely we've got we've got a number of membership levels professional is um the most expensive you mentioned the price it's 125 a year to become a professional member associate members 100 bucks um those are differentiated by level of experience and we've got supporting members uh affiliate memberships uh so um you know again i think start at 65 bucks a year as you put yeah absolutely the more people we add to the the roll call the roster of the organization the bigger voice we have potentially the bigger voice we have um you know it again if you believe in you know what the organization stands for you should absolutely join but more importantly in my opinion you should get involved again the organization has committees the organization has work groups the organization has right now a lot of things going on uh you know our legislative committee the one you talked about being on before continues to work day in day out um there are there are collar bands right now going on in singapore and uh being proposed in you know places like singapore and um ecuador and and places where honestly me uh as long as i've been in this industry i would never expect to see them there i really wouldn't i mean it's like man these things are popping up in places i really wouldn't expect to see them you know why um i i have a kind of idea why that's happening i think it's because and again i mean i'm kind of like you i just go all over the world and and and people let's say in i don't know let's speak what colombia they would think well the germans have banned it the belgians it must be the right thing and the cool thing to do not realizing that they just got tricked and trapped into it and they wish that they can get out of it and and there is this like

like really people think that this is the right thing because of how it gets presented around the world and not realizing that they are very actively trying to reverse it i mean and in some cases i think this will happen there is just i really believe that this will happen in in some countries i don't know how far it's gonna go but i think that's uh uh what goes on in the world right now they they uh countries that are kind of going along they think it's the the cool thing the the right thing and as far as volunteers and help like if somebody wants to say okay i can spend a little bit time off working on my algorithm on social media and making these videos every day and post them instead i can leave a little time and contribute to the bigger picture of things there is a need for that right i mean i see people need that right absolutely yes absolutely yeah again we like i said we've got a number of uh number of committees and work groups and um yeah it it it is a 501c6 non-profit so uh we we're we're all volunteer organizations so everything is done uh with the exception of two office staff everything is done by volunteers my position and the balance of the board of directors we're all volunteers um so we we contribute our time and you know some sometimes of the year it's a lot more than others um to make make the uh make the organization move uh so yeah we've got education committee service dog committee legislative committee um we actually have a european committee committee i know i was just going to talk about that i was going to bring this up what what what how is the i um this is a little bit difficult i think in in europe in especially in some certain countries in europe how do they look at iacp there um i think so i was i was actually for and for quite some time i was the director of oversight for the european members committee so i got to know all those all those individuals guys there we got uh folks from uk doms from germany um netherlands uh now portugal belgium so you know some as as i hate to put it some affected countries right um and um i've had a lot of conversations with those guys about sort of state of the union for lack of a better way to put it they're in europe and and so that i have a better understanding of where they've been where they are and where they hope to go um unfortunately unfortunately the icp doesn't have the obviously doesn't have same name recognition in europe that it does in the u.s and that's something that that particular committee is working really hard to change they're they're doing

um trying to be really active on social media they're doing podcasts they're doing uh q a sessions to try to raise awareness about the organization the benefits of of being a member uh getting involved and uh you know working to try to create a different situation for some of those folks really good group of really really good i've gotten to know uh all of them quite well and i mean it's a it's a it's a superb group of individuals on that committee and they're they're putting in the work they really are that's good and and i mean these these are especially in europe it's kind of very important that the people that are doing the work have a good image themselves right and and because europe is i mean they are just so brutal of as far as you know like i i i was making a joke one day like i can have a link of a prone collar on my keychain on my car and that would already tell the majority of people that are in dog training there what i stand for it is it is insane and like right now i'm gonna go to i mean like in a week or something i'm going to england to england to make a very cool presentation actually a few presentations that are not even related to that they're just overall very educational dog training things but you know you're going there and you have this lunatics that are you know trying trying to get you stopped trying to get you stopped trying to convince every every person that owns a dog that there is a better way that there is more humane way that we don't need to bring pain and we don't need to do the fear and discomfort and shocking and then use all these words words but they this has been going on since early 90s and it really picked up in the 2000s the reality is they have failed to prove that they can do something equally good forget about being better like like any little study with five dogs or 50 dogs it's not enough like if i want to learn how i can be better i don't think i can even sign up for victoria steelville academy i don't think they're gonna let me and then would i it's kind of like well there is a better way but you already are in the dark side so far that we forget about you and is that where where do you see this i mean do you think this can come to some place where we can accept each other or like i've given myself up the idea that we can convince each other because that's just like that's absolutely we cannot convince each other

the reality that i see i'm fine do what you want to do but when you don't understand you don't have the knowledge and you don't have a reason to talk all that nonsense that you're talking about against somebody it's not a like i don't see this ever coming together to any level like i think we we just have to continue to to stand our ground and do good things and allow them as we always have allowed them to do good things um but i do not like i i've myself given up on trying to convince the people that are in those extreme groups you know there is plenty of trainers that are curious that are trying and choosing well i i want to train my dog without averses i mean that's cool i you know if that's your choice and and you're accomplishing something the only time i probably not probably but the only time i have a issue with that is when we're gonna say well we tried really everything we've exhausted any option and the best thing to do for this dog is to utilize it but we haven't even told the dog forget about doing anything more but just told the dog no that's a bad idea don't do that and but even then i'm you know i i in a way wish that that owner will look for help elsewhere simply because they don't want to give up and and want to exhaust like really truly exhaust their options before they make that hard decision because life and dead is a it's a it's a clear cut right and if i have a if my dog is or my kid or you know anybody that i care and i've tried a lot of things and it's at the point that i i'm like you know i'll go to some witch i'll do some bruja or baba yaga whatever like i mean i'm at the point that i i want to save my dog or i want to save my kid from canister whatever it is and i this is like my biggest problem with them when they say that everything was done and we're not touching this part that's not gonna work that is the reason why we're here and all get so it's not gonna work that is the reason why we're here and all get so confusing and people people buy that i don't know i'm rambling here i think there's um do i think we'll ever come together no i don't i don't i don't see that in a foreseeable future i really don't do i do i believe that both um belief systems can coexist

uh i think that's our best hope right now um i think i think the balance community and i'm not trying to be um super critical here i'm just trying to make a statement based on what i believe i think a balanced community unfortunately has done a pretty poor job historically of educating people and i think that that's been a bit of a problem because they're all so busy training people's dogs and helping to resolve behavioral issues and keeping dogs in homes whereas others on sort of the the opposite side of that um i guess for whatever reason simply has a lot more time to uh create content and you know you do a simple google search and this is a conversation i've had a number of people you do a simple google search about training tools and you know the first two and a half pages are populated with articles written by the force-free community about how training tools are terrible is that something that balance trainers could change absolutely put pen to paper sit in front of a keyboard

böyle Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast inside. We walked off the field. You know, we walked off the field and now they're the only ones that are really sort of out there. I think that's, you know, a super easy solution to level the playing field on some of these situations is, you know, education, education, education. The problem is in some part, the problem is their rhetoric just sounds good. The reality is it sounds great to the majority of the public. You know, you're not going to cause pain. You're not going to create discomfort. If you do X, Y, and Z, you know, look at a prong collar. It's not the most appealing training tool. I love them. Beautiful things if used properly. But the reality is I can't sell it to somebody as looking like something other than a medieval torture device. The reality is that's what it looks like. That's not what it is. We all know that.

We all know that it can be an incredibly valuable tool. Reality is it just ain't real pretty. But can we educate people? Can we do a better job of showcasing how the proper and effective use of these training tools in capable hands have changed the lives of both dogs and their owners? Yes. I don't think we've done enough of that. Historically, I just don't. And I think we need to make that a priority a priority moving forward. And maybe also somehow the whole force-free communities because they're so much invested in this fight they support each other blindly without like, okay, no, he's force-free. Therefore, I don't care what they are doing, but they they're on my side. So let's go. Right? To where we are way more careful to which person you want to actually say, yeah, yeah, you're good. And probably it's also because sure some of the training methods, you know, they they're not not quite the way it should be. But again, there is that other side, like I'm just thinking out loud because any force-free advocate like from from like the big, big advocates, they would be like, well, even if you fuck up some you reinforce whatever, it's not the end of the world. But it's actually is the end of the world for many dogs. It you are not able to rehabilitate a problem dog and you're giving up way too soon. so it is a problem. And when when you say, well, if you like I've sometimes if I really am one-on-one with somebody, they will be, okay, yeah, of course it's it's works, but you need this experience and you need all these things. And most people don't have that kind of knowledge and the reality is that when you like for most of those when you when you do any kind of behavior rehabilitation specifically and you're trying to go all force free, you need way more knowledge, you need way more time, you need way more structure, I mean, you need to set up so many things and for so long that most people are like, okay, I mean, I'm all about it, but eventually I need to see some we need to be able to accomplish something. But they will always go back to that and they will say, well, even if you fuck up anything with force free, no harm is done. And that's just so not true. Not at all. And back to your earlier point, yeah, you're right. That group, that community is singing from the same hymn book, while the balanced community

on the other side is arguing with each other over how a prong collar should be fitted because your dog's wearing it looser than I would put it on or you're using the e-collar in a way that I wouldn't condone or recommend. I do it different with my clients and yada, yada, yada. The reality is if your dog's wearing a prong collar way looser than I would ever put it on mine, but it works for you and your clients and it's not harming the dog and I do it completely different, but it works for those dogs and clients and I get results for them to keep those dogs in their homes and it's not harming the dog. Should we really be spending our time and unfortunately just spinning our wheels in fighting with each other while this other group, again, is committed to making sure that neither of us, get the opportunity to argue over those tools anymore because they're going to be banned. Yeah. It's a tough one. I know now people, certain people that are listening will be like, oh, we are, but Ivan is always looking down on certain types of certain ways of how somebody else using electric collar. And I can disagree, disagree, but it's not like I think all of us ultimately have to disagree when things are done really bad. I mean, that's at least a very good start. hard. And that's a very difficult place. How do you, like, where is that line that you say, well, you're starting to be an ethical trainer from here on with what you're doing. that's not easy. And IACP, not that it's possible, but it cannot be really, I don't know, but I don't think IACP can have some position statement, how the AVSAB and all of them is like, okay, no, these are the shitty our training position statement, they're just total nonsense. But I'm so torn between like regulation or no regulation whatsoever. And where I am today, I am really not about regulation. I really believe in do what you think, I mean, encourage education, encourage to be better. And if you prove that you are just not a person that should be training dogs, then somehow there's got to be penalties. And the penalties that I see, they're already in place by, you know, I mean, animal care and so on. There is ways to do that. but it's becoming harder and harder. Like, I watch

balanced trainers really trying to talk and show things in a way that with the sole purpose to please the force-free community. It's like, oh, this is a whatever, it's gonna tickle, or it's, you know, and, oh, first we need to do this, and only then we will do this, where clearly we can just take care of what needs to be taken care of, but there is this overly cautious approach of a lot of trainers that, as I hear them and as I watch them on social media, I know that everything in that little clip that they're trying to show is to please the force-free community, and that's the wrong take, but we went too far in it, you know? I don't know, not easy. It's not, but, you know, you talk about consequences for being a bad trainer, and regulations, yeah, I mean, but there's also consequences from the clientele, you know, if you're doing, if you're doing a poor job, sooner or later, your clientele is going to put you out of business on some level. Regulation? You know, a lot of people ask me about that. Do you feel like professional dog training industry should be regulated? Should there be licenses required, et cetera, et cetera? I am convinced that if that were to be if a group were to be put together or a committee would be assembled to start that process in the U.S. today, I am convinced that it would be populated by the force for community, period. So, with that being said, I am 100% against any of that right now. I think that's the only reason they're trying to push regulation is to, I mean, they're just trying from so many angles to take over. And fortunately, it's not happening. And again, I don't think it, we, I think where we are as far as a lot of good work is happening, more can be done. We just need to support a little bit more each other. As you said, we need the membership of AACP. I think it's just super, super important if you're training dogs and if you are in agreement and you're, you know, you cannot afford not to be a member because like you really just cannot afford not to be a member. And you can make a difference. Yeah. You can make a difference. There can be significant and substantial change. I truly believe in that. And I'll give you, I'll give you one example that I'm pretty happy about. We, well, you met, you met Magdalena, right, from Poland. She works, works here. She runs, she runs and spearheads our shelter program.

We go to the shelter every week. We take a group and we work with shelter dogs. And as you know, it's pretty common practice amongst the shelters and those types of facilities within the United States that training tools absolutely of any kind pretty much are not allowed. We, we began to work with our, our local shelter quite some time back. And, and did it take us some time? Yes. Did it take a lot of effort? Yes. Did we convince them through simply through education? Did we convince them to allow us to use Bronco's, training tools with dogs to, to help resolve some issues that they were having with dogs to help get them adopted? We did. We did. And, and since then we've, we've had the ability and opportunity to continue to use those tools and adoption rates, it has made a tremendous difference with adoption rates. The other thing that we're doing is, you know, once, once that dog's adopted, they get to come to our place for free, several free lessons so that we can work specifically one-on-one with that owner while that dog's in that new home. If that, if not all of them, but if that dog's, if we're implementing a training tool and a plan for that particular dog, they're getting the knowledge or getting the education before they're using it. And man, it has made a tremendous difference. In a place where I never thought, where I never thought we would be able to use training tools. So, you know, it can be done, but it does require some work. You're going to beat your head against the wall. You're going to get frustrated. But, you know, I think it's important to stay the course. Yeah, shelters are really like any dog trainer that has a little bit of time. But even as an experience for yourself, working with these kind of dogs and this kind of environment, it's so valuable. And when you, it's hard to argue when there is that dog all the way in the back of the shelter that nobody can take out, and all of a sudden it starts to go on a walk, and it starts to play, and everybody starts to see that. And you can agree all along with, okay, yeah, we're going to do this, but let me take him on a walk. And next thing you know, it's like right in front of your eyes, and now you have your ideology, but then you have that dog that you felt so bad, and you pretty much scratched him off, and now he's going on a walks, and now he's not just doing the matrix in his kennel run, and so on. And I think that's arguably the best place where dog trainers can show that, hey, we can help some dogs. Not all dogs, but there are dogs that we can help. I think shelters are really, and as you say, there will be, it's not easy to break through, and you have to go along, and maybe you have to try a few different ones, and maybe not the very big ones, but the more places people start to see that there is, all they need to see is that there is options, and you

can choose if you want to go that way or not, but especially in the shelter, when we say, well, he's been here for 10 months, nobody's walking him, he's only causing problems, there is room, we need to make room, and at this point, if you say, well, let me give it a try for a week, what do we have to lose at that point, right? That can be opportunities, these are, I think, opportunities for dog trainers to do something good. I don't know. What are you doing? What's for you right now, what's exciting besides running the businesses? I mean, you're extremely busy. I think I'm busy, I think you're, if not as equally busy, or more, but what, what, on the side of all the madness and things that need to, you need to move around, are you, what are you doing? Training. I'll be honest with you, it's, again, because our business is multifaceted, it does provide lots of opportunities for training different things and, you know, getting involved in different stuff. I'm supposed to go to, I'm supposed to go to Denmark this year, teach a, teach a cadaver seminar, water, water cadaver seminar, actually. Teaching at a number of conferences this year, we're, we're putting on the ICP conference, we've got some seminars coming up at our place, you know, teaching people really is something that I, you know, absolutely love, love to do, is, is teaching people, and I like the variety, I really do, I like to go teach about cadaver dogs, I like to teach about detection, I like to teach about service dogs, you know, so the variety of it, keeps me, keeps me waking up every day wanting to go do it. We've got another, another kind of cool, interesting project we're hoping will come to fruition this year in Africa, so we're keeping, keeping our, keeping a lid on it, but keeping our fingers crossed, hoping that will, that one will pan out, because it's, it's, it's a, it's a pretty cool one, hoping to, hoping to make some headway this year in the sea turtle space, a lot of people have heard me talking about it, we, we want to try to develop a better program for training dogs for sea turtles, something I've been working on since last summer. what exactly, what is that about, like, protection of sorts, or what? Yep. Yeah, teaching, teaching, well, basically it's detection dogs, and you're teaching them to locate nests. Oh, okay, so you can kind of, soon after they're late. Okay. Oh, wow. Yeah, it's a bit of a conflict because, you know, those marine biologists, you know, most of them would love to have dogs readily available to come out and find nests. The problem is, once they find a nest, they're not going to let you within 100 yards of it. So, acquiring and developing good training aids and good training program for that has made it difficult. So, as you know, we've done quite a few conservation detection dogs, and that's one of the things we love. You know, we've done bumblebees

and bat poop and, you know, a lot of different things, and we want to, we want to, we want to try to delve into the sea turtle world a little more and see if we can create some improvements with the detectability of them. Did you have a podcast on the bumblebee something? I think you did have something, right? Yeah, we did one with Jacqueline, yeah, on the bumblebee detection dogs. Tell people about the podcast, how they can go into it. As I said, I'm going to put all this in a description of the podcast, but you had a cool name of the podcast, it's a life of dogs is the name of it, and it's, it is just a full transparency for people who may want to listen to it. It is not a, it is not a how to train dogs podcast. It is not really a dog training podcast. It's a, it's more of like a human interest stories that involve dogs. So we've got stories about a lot of different things. We, we finished up season two. We're hoping to get season three going. It's something I do because I enjoy it. So it's inconsistent. I'll tell you that the first two seasons are done, but we've got, we've got Trevor's story on there. Zero, zero is the name of that episode. Zero, zero is kind of a play on 2020 vision. He is zero, zero. That one came from him, not us. So we've got episodes on the rat hunting dogs of New York. We did an entire series on the 2020 Iditarod. We've done Yeah, those were all very cool ones too. That's kind of conservation and anti-poaching dogs in Africa. So yeah, it's like I said, more human interest stories. So how is that? Like I kind of, I know I'm just jumping around right now, but let's say you're going to go to Denmark. how are you, I mean Denmark is, they do have restriction on tools and so on. How do you navigate when you go to countries when you know that you can convince them, but you know that you don't have time to even go there because you have to show, you have to, and you know it's not going to happen. How do you, is it frustrating or how do you go with when you go to country that it's just, they're already so set in, and the moment anything comes outside of what is accepted as the norm right now, they will just tell you you're a mean person or something, and you lose all the respect in an instant of just saying one word. Yeah. Well, fortunately for me, like I said, I'm going there for a detection seminar. So, training tools most likely not going to be a topic of conversation. However, if it comes up, again, I have very clear opinions and beliefs about it. I do not hesitate to share my experience and opinions with people, whether they like it or not, plain and simple. again, I've talked to a lot of folks in Europe who are impacted by training tool bans. Granted, I've not talked to everybody, but again, I have a bit of a network in Europe of folks I talk to. I'm not sure who voted all us in because I failed so far to

meet anybody who's on board with it. Everybody that I've met with, everybody I've talked to has been pretty adamantly opposed to the legislation and regulation. So, again, I think from my understanding, at least in a couple of those countries over there, it was those regulations got pushed through by uninformed legislators, people who are making decisions, who had little to no information about training tools. And honestly, that's what scares me about those things being proposed in the U.S. because, again, these legislators, you know, they're passing regulations and legislation that they didn't read was buried in a bill of 3,000 pages, or they're making decisions about things they simply just don't know anything about, or they only know what little someone from some particular group has told them about, or some lobbyist has told them about. And that's the part that, for me, is incredibly scary about training tool bans, regulations, and licensure in the U.S. world. But we do catch it on time here. That's the difference. I think we were fortunate to learn the lessons of Europe and how sneaky things happen there. And I know when things get presented in the States, they make them believe that everybody is in agreement and this is the right thing to do. and all of a sudden, dog trainers go to these meetings, IACP gets involved, and so on, and any politician that sees that, oh, this is not a clean cut, then they are smart enough to say, I'll step out of this. And I think this is the good thing, and again, once again, this is why just joining IACP is so important, just for this, nothing else, because IACP is always, anywhere that happens, including, as you said, being Singapore or somewhere, they will contact IACP, even though this is such a far-fetched out-of-the-country situation. But here, I mean, we've been able to stop the nonsense for many years now, very successfully, everywhere. And there have been so many times where they would think, okay, well, we can crack that door open. It's like, no, no, it's not going to happen that way. Yeah, I think you're right, and I think that's probably what made the biggest difference with the San Francisco band. You know, it was like people, people caught, like you and others calling in, you know, back to back, just back to back, people calling in saying, hey, hold on, here's been our experience with training tools. And I think prior to that, yeah, you're right, they'd only heard one side of the story. Yeah, it's so important that we, like, oh, everybody that agrees with us in this, don't,

don't sit back and hope that somebody else is going to do it for you. Like, you can be part of that, and being part of that helps. Europe, that's what happened. In the beginning, they were like, oh, yeah, they're just talking, we're going to be able to do what we want to do, this is just public relations, and then little by little, it snuck into them, and here they are. Because, and that's kind of the European mentality, too, in some ways, grown up there and being all over the place. it's like, don't expect somebody else to do it. Like, you, you don't have to be like the leader of some movement, but you can be that small particle of it. And it really, really matters. You know, it really matters. Because then when they, when any politicians, just like as you said in San Francisco, they were, they really believed that, well, this is clean cut. Everybody's on board. This is the right thing to do. And they were shocked that there was a resistance. And it wasn't just a resistance. There was like a incredibly valuable arguments coming out from very experienced people. And it makes a difference every time. and that's why I believe that we can keep that situation in check. still, I really encourage everybody to be that small particle in the big jug of water to where everybody can contribute. And people in the way. Yeah. One thing about the membership and the reach of the membership is having members throughout the United States, having members in different countries, it's incredibly beneficial for the organization and particularly Marlene and them legislated because they hear our membership hears about things happening locally that may be flying under the radar and they can send an email, they can pick up the phone and say, hey, did you guys know about this? And it does give the organization and that committee the opportunity to kind of get in front of that, as you said, and again, start educating people and start letting some of those people know, hey, this is not a one-sided thing. There are two very clear and different views on this. before we wrap it up, how do you guys, this is just kind of almost my own curiosity kind of question, how does ACP decide, like, how do you say, well, that's going to be a good presenter, let's see if we can get that person to come to the next conference. How do you guys, how does that work? or like if somebody says, hey, I have a, I want to present, or how, what's the mechanism to this? And that happens. We do get people who say, hey, I want to present. They're not always afforded that opportunity. You know, it's all based on a number of things. I'll be honest with you. I don't have the entire formula. Marlene does. She does a remarkable job of

lining up speakers and reaching out to speakers and getting all the logistics worked out. Like I said, she's been doing that ever since I've been there. Now, how do we decide who? She doesn't do that single-handedly. We do it sort of as a group. And again, I think that's where right now having a board that's pretty cohesive has made things a little easier. one of the ones that's speaking this year, I was familiar with and suggested last year. I suggested having Monique Udell there and having Jacqueline, the bumblebee detection. She came and talked about bumblebees and bumblebee detection and conservation. So everybody sort of puts things in and we talk about what fits and what doesn't fit. We don't want to be too heavy one way or the other. We've had some feedback about having a little too heavy on the business side of things and less on training. So we try to give people a good mix. This year, I think it's a little more heavy on the training side, which I think people enjoy. A little less on the business and marketing stuff, even though there's a little bit there. I like the idea of also inviting and if they accept, some of them will, some of them won't, but inviting force-free people, it's like come to AACP. You know, we listen to where the APDT is just, there is just no, I mean, you, there is no, there is such a clear cut there. It's really, I don't know how they do it, honestly. I don't know how they just, but they can say probably the same thing about us. the thing is over, over the years, we have, over the years, we have had force-free people, and it's, it's been fine, it's, it doesn't go into, oh, let's kill each other or some arguments on the stage or whatever, it's like, hey, I mean, I listen to all of them anyway, so I'm sure everybody to some extent does have certain level of curiosity and you can get ideas for sure, but it's dangerous, just kind of what we were talking earlier about the detection and the police and conferences and stuff, any conference that there is this level of validation and it can, I don't know, it can be tricky, I guess, as long as people know, well, no, this is, you know, somebody's presentation, their idea, it's not like they are endorsed or are they endorsed, like, I don't know how IACP does right now with the conferences but you understand that there's got to be some level of concern of, okay, we can invite somebody that is very popular at the moment and it can be very interesting and it can draw attention

but as you go to a conference, you always keep something in mind that that's the person that's presenting I don't know, I don't know, tough one, like I would have no idea how to do that if I had to do that. Yeah, I think there's a perceived endorsement, whether it be an actual endorsement, I think anytime you put somebody on that stage at a conference, there's at least a perceived endorsement by the audience. Going back to something you said, I just want to mention that we did have an experience last year at conference where we had someone who attended who's pretty well-known to be fairly outspoken about training tools, and they made a comment to one of the board members about how surprised, pleasantly surprised, that they were at how welcoming our membership was. I don't know what motivated them to come to the conference, I'm glad they did, I'm super glad that they came, we had a couple people from that camp who attended conference last year, and all of them were pleasantly surprised, is what I'm understanding, about how welcoming the membership was. And the reality is we have speakers who are not necessarily outspoken balanced trainers, they come from other backgrounds. And we feel like it's important for our membership to have the opportunity to have that, those varying perspectives, but you'll never see that at those other organization conferences, period, you'll never see it. Do you guys do anything or have you thought about trying to create interest and somehow make people that are not, that are really force-free trainers, but they're just curious, and, and, hey, you're, come, come, you're welcome, nothing, you know, like, see it, experience it. Maybe you prove to yourself that it's all bad, or maybe do you guys try to reach out to community outside our own? That's something that we're hoping to do a better job of in 2025, I'll be honest with you, through targeted, through some targeted ads and targeted social messaging, there are still, there are still people who are on the fence, so to speak, I hate to use that term, on the fence, but the reality is their opposition to training tools is based solely on, you know, what they've read on the internet. They don't have enough knowledge and experience to have an opinion, in my, you know, in my, my belief. so we, we would love the opportunity to have those people come and see and hear and experience what it's like. And feel safe in the environment, you know, going to be like, oh, you know, that would be interesting if that happens, that would be a, a good move. I doubt that there's going to be a flooding, but few people come, go back

home, they talk. I think it's, it's something of interest to, to be considered in the future, if, I don't know, but then again, it might not be possible. Who knows? Flood starts with a trickle. Right. Where is the conference this year? It's the end of July 27 through the first, I think, 27 through the first, I believe. We got pre-con, one day of pre-con. We've got a split pre-con day, so if you come to pre-conference, the day before conference, there's actually two tracks you can go. One's going to be on-site, one's going to be off-site, two different things, and then, like I said, we've got a pretty good lineup of speakers, and then we've got a lot of other things going on this year. Some new stuff, again, and that's in Charleston, right? Yeah, Charleston, South Carolina. South Carolina. Right on the river. Right on the river. No, sorry, Savannah, Georgia. Savannah, Georgia, right? That's kind of, yeah. Savannah, Georgia. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, right on the river. Nice. Yeah. Beautiful, Hyatt, it's at the Hyatt, right on the river, and it's a gorgeous place, and last year's conference was at the Will Rogers Center, so it was at a convention center. Didn't have a hotel attached to it. We heard, we tried something different, we heard the feedback from our membership, so we moved back to the hotel convention center combination this year. It's the best, because it's like, you know, everybody gets to hang out more than just the presentation time, that's really the beauty of keeping it that way, so that's very cool. Yeah. That's very cool. Jason, that was awesome. I think, hopefully, hopefully, people that listen, at least, like, once, for one last time, I will encourage anybody that cares, that it really does matter to join the organization, like, like, the least thing, if you don't want to volunteer, if you don't want to, if you don't have the time, if you, but if that's something that you care about, and you, it frustrates you on the internet, the least thing you can do is join the organization, because it does make a difference, so, thank you, man. Hopefully, we see each other, I mean, I'm most likely going to show up at the conference, but maybe even before that, when we go, because we're going to end up going up north, doing some training with our dogs, as it gets too hot here, we're enjoying right now, look at me, I'm dressed like you, I mean, it's been eight for Florida, now everybody's going to laugh at us, but we're in the 40s, and low, high 30s, but that's super cold for us, we're just so not used to, but those days are, you know, we train all day, and it's very enjoyable, pretty soon we're going to have to start thinking to go up, so I think you're going to see me at your place at some point. Looking forward to it. All right, Jason, thank you for, really, thank you for the conversation, but most

importantly, like, really, really thank you for just being part of AACP and volunteering your time to something that most of us really, really care, and it's very much appreciated, man, like, really appreciate it. So, I will see you soon. Been a pleasure. Yeah, again, if people are looking, it's IACPdogs.org, so go learn more about IACP. Thanks for having me on, it's been a pleasure. Yeah, man, I'm going to put everything, all the links on the description, so, cheers. See you. Cheers. Have a good night. Of böyle Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast Infrast