E371: 크리스탈 윙(Crystal Wing) - 노는 법 배우기

and play doesn't feel like productive. And that's where the first aspect that I really try to, um, approach and help people with is just learning how to be curious and ask questions because that's all that training is. It's asking questions of this amazing species that we're, we're interacting with. Um, on the dog side, uh, maybe to answer your question more directly, um, it is a really common misconception that playing with toys is simple. It's a natural interaction for a lot of our dogs. It is natural, but it's natural with other dogs, maybe not natural with us as a different species. So if we think about the context of sport dog training, um, there's this skill set. It's, it really takes a strong foundation to be really effective if you're using it as reinforcement. And I think about play as reinforcement, but all play for me is relationship. So I do kind of separate it when I'm thinking about it as reinforcement. So that's where I'm going to approach it from the question you asked. So, um, it's, it's fun and games. Um, but it's also about building a communication system and I use markers, um, lots of them. And I think that can be overwhelming for some people. Um, and they're like, how do you remember all those words? And I'm like, well, we use words more than we use everything else. And for dogs, they use even less words. So if I can incorporate those, it, it really helps my communication for even other cues. So, um, I'm going to say one of the solid, uh, foundation skills is to know when we're done to have a very clear done because I don't need the dog being so amped up and not understanding. And I think about it myself as a child. I had a really hard time understanding being done. I was like, no more, no go. Yeah. More. I know you probably couldn't think that about me. Never have occurred to me. No, that's a, that was a surprise for you. Um, and so along those lines, um, once I know that I have a very clear start and finish, and I use that in, in all my aspects for my dog training, um, I also need to have a really solid out or release cue because I need to make sure that my dog understands how to let go of the toy if we're playing with toys. Um, it's, it's going to help with, you know, avoiding frustration because it just bleeds into everything else. And another key behavior is impulse control. Um, and that's also for myself. Safety. Yeah. Yeah. Very much safety. Uh, I just don't want them becoming overly aroused. And I know for myself, I become overly aroused. And then we both start amping up and amping up and then we're just both a hot mess.

And it was great advice once that was told to me that, um, one of you can be amped up, but one of you has to be in control. I pretty much know that that always has to be me that has to be in control, but I do it. I want to be amped. So the release, a clear end. Um, I think the clear marker system, because then they know when they've done something right and they know when the reward is coming and where the reward is coming from. And that creates consistency and it creates that, that communication I was talking about. And again, this is in my reinforcement play. Um, and I think also teaching the dog how to target properly because, um, a tug, a ball, a ball and a rope. I mean, all those things offer way different targeting skills and I don't like getting bit and I don't want training to be aversive for myself. And so I don't want the experience for my dog to be bad because it's bad for me. And that, you know, so that, that targeting becomes really important too. So I think, um, it should come naturally, I think is what people think, but you have a lot of behaviors, um, that you have to really build in to make it successful because a lot of those things aren't natural, um, for us or our dogs because of being different species and interacting in this way. I hope that stayed on track enough. I absolutely think you stayed on track enough. It got me a little curious about where you were going to go on the relationship aspect, but we don't have to go there yet. Yeah. Cause that goes a whole other way now too. And how long do you want to talk? Cause I can talk for days. Um, okay. So, uh, let's drill just a little bit more into maybe where those two things meet. So, um, obviously in dog toying, there's never like a one fits all solution, right? Um, so how do you kind of factor in a dog's natural play style or kind of what the dog naturally brings to the table when it comes to toys, uh, when you're looking at kind of those skills that you just broke down or, or just teaching toy skills overall? Definitely no one size fits all. And that's, I think where the relationship piece comes in. I love observing. I love watching my dog. I'm very thankful that, um, two of my dogs can get along. I mean, well, Radish can get along with everybody and checkmate in Yukon, not so much. Um, but it allows me to be able to watch them and even watching them interact with a toy. Radish lays on her back and, and she holds the toy above her and it's the cutest thing. And then she like moves it around and tosses it and makes grunty noises. And so guess what I'm going to do when I go to play with her?

Or I'm going to lay on my back on the floor with her because I see that she loves doing that with checkmate and they kind of non each other's faces. I don't non her face, but I mean, I was like, okay, I got to draw a line somewhere, but, but I love watching how they interact and what they love to do. And, and, you know, they do like this smiley faces at each other. And, you know, I do the same thing, you know, so, um, it, it helps me be playful and I can do that in the comfort of my living room, you know, where no one's watching me roll around on the floor with my dog and we're just giggling and, and it's just this joyous feeling. Um, so when he comes to the toy play, um, every dog is going to bring their own style, their own preferences. And that really impacts how I approach teaching, especially toy related skills. Yukon, super possessive. He just wants to have the thing. And I have so many videos. If you're ever on my Facebook or my CBK9 Facebook group, I'm always like, I have videos of Yukon holding his toy. Um, and I think the last two webinars, he was in the background, just holding his toy and he can do it for hours. Give him a go dog fur ball. And he is like, yes, I'm just going to sit here and hold it. So that's way different than like checkmate. He's going to like latch onto the toy with full enthusiasm and power. And with him, I really have to teach, you know, control and precision, um, because I need him to harness that energy in a really productive way because it could get out of control fast. Um, so different dogs are going to need different, um, styles for me. And I'm also going to try to, um, like for a dog that doesn't have an in, so, uh, um, an in meaning like the one that maybe isn't going to be as into the toy. Um, I'm not going to add as many rules into it straight away. I'm going to be very lenient and very playful. Um, and then with the dog that has a lot of in, I have to add more control, um, or else I'm never going to get it back. So those are kind of, I'm looking at their natural intensity. Um, on the other end of the spectrum, you know, we do have the really cautious ones with the toys. And so I do try to encourage them a lot. And that's a lot of the relationship building things. And what checkmates taught me is because he is so intense with the toy, I found myself maybe not being as relationship based with him. It became too structured and I had to really correct myself. And that's what I really enjoyed, um, with the webinar coming up that I'm doing. Uh, it, it was a good reminder for me. I learned a lot.

I learned a lot doing webinars because it makes me deep dive into things and I, and I rabbit hole in them. And that was something I really found with him was that I had such high expectations of him that I was using toy as reinforcement and I was losing the, the, the toy and the play as relationship. And it's been an interesting, um, reminder. And I've, I've really loved that, that we've really reconnected again in a relationship based way, uh, watching him interact with radish and, and not making it all about this transactional, you know, thing. And I appreciate Amy Cook for that. And the last podcast we did was she really like put that in my brain again about transactional play. And I'm like, yeah, that's what I'm doing with checkmate. Oh dude, you're so smart. Like she didn't say that thing, but that's, that's exactly what hit me in the soul. So, so yeah, I think there's just such a wide variety of dogs. There's also the ones like Yukon where he comes on real strong and then he just kind of fades away and goes and chases a butterfly. And he reminds me that play for him is very short. It's just this fun burst. And then it's go sniff. And I watch when he plays other dogs, that's what he does. He plays real hard, real fast. And you think it's like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And then he's just gone. He's just checked out and he's off doing something. And I would take so much offense to that. I'm like, dude, I'm fun. What are you doing? But that is what he needs. And so I really appreciate learning about each of the dogs and seeing what it is that they enjoy. It really is. I'm sorry. I just, I think about play. It's like, it's this like window to their personality. It's play shows me their personality, their drive, their preferences. And when you can really pay attention to those nuances, that's when we can take our training and match their individual needs. And like for some, and I love using play to build confidence. Oh, it's my favorite. Even in super confident dogs, it is just such a joy to watch them just, you know, overcome things that maybe they didn't think they could at first. And that's also a really huge, powerful part of it too. So it just adapting to the high drive, you know, keeping the less focused dog engaged. It's, that's what, play is not just fun. It's just, it's an effective training tool and it's how we build our relationships. I might be a little passionate about it. A little bit. Awful lot of human skills in there too that you're talking about. Like as you talk about the relationship piece, just so much observation and adaptation and

willingness to like, you know, kind of be part of a partnership or be part of a team and not just think about it as a one way. Yeah. Play is curiosity. That's a hundred percent. And that's, you know, I'm a high school art teacher and every Monday we play. I make my high school kids play every Monday and it is amazing. As high school kids, they're not that far off from being children, but they are so far from being children in their minds. Like they've already developed this logic side and they have a hard time playing. And so much of that in the last 23 years of teaching is building their curiosity. And I make them ask questions. When they start asking questions, they start wondering more and they become more playful. And I think that's what we have to do with our dogs too. So kind of reflecting on some of that, you know, looking at who the dog is and what they're kind of bringing to the table, does that impact what toys you choose to play with? The toy itself, do you kind of do what the dog likes best? Do you pick different toys for teaching different skills? How do you kind of think about the actual toy itself in that picture? Yeah, absolutely. The choice of toy really is a significant part of teaching toy skills. It can heavily influence the dogs. So some dogs want to chase. Some dogs want to fight. Some dogs want to possess. And so a dog that wants to chase, I would probably want to use something that flies like a Frisbee or a ball. And I also will just kind of watch what they gravitate toward because that right there can give me valuable insights. But I'm usually looking at the action that they want to do. So once I know what action, so thinking about like the predator motor pattern, like from Ray and Lorna Coppinger's work. And once I know the behaviors they like, it helps me select the toy that I think they're going to appreciate more. And it's fun in seminars. I like that. So there was this cute little corgi and I have this giant viper roll and I gave this to her to try and look on her face like that's as big as he is. I'm like, and you have a corgi. And they're a big personality, you know, and they had all these little toys and thin tugs. And I'm like, just, just try it. And oh my gosh, that little corgi was adorable. Just like latched onto that thing. It was like thrashing and everybody's like laughing and cheering. And sometimes you're surprised by what the dog is that they really like. And you don't know until you get the opportunity to like try some different things. So what I found is a lot of them don't understand how to open their mouth.

And so a larger soft toy tends to be very satisfying for them because it makes them open their mouth. And then when they chomp down on it, it's very satisfying when they get a full mouth of something and they can like squish it. And so that's part of like when I start thinking about my progression of like how I teach targeting it, it's very specific to the size of the toy and the softness of the toy and getting down to something that has handles and might be smaller and something I could stuff in my pocket because like a viper roll, it's not really pocket stuffable. Uh, so when I'm trying to choose the right tools, the right toys, I'm thinking about, you know, if they're highly motivated for a specific toy, then that's going to be a really powerful reinforcement tool. But on the flip side, if they aren't really interested in a certain type of toy, then it's not going to be effective. So it doesn't matter how much I like fur balls, you know, if my dog doesn't like it, then I can't use it. And that's what Radish taught me. I love the fur ball. I think it's so much fun. And now she wants chuckets on little handles. Lame. I'm like, whatever. I built all this time, like building this passion for a fur ball. And now she likes this darn little chucket, but it's nice. It fits my pocket, whatever. Something to be said for convenience. Yeah, it is. It's nice. But yeah, I'm going to work on, you know, control around, um, high drive dogs with their tugs and make sure that I'm not getting hurt. And, you know, when the, you know, when to release the toy is really important then too. Um, and when it's appropriate to tug and, you know, for those that want to fetch, I'm going to work on, you know, building patience and impulse control. I'm going to have them wait before chasing the toy. Uh, I'm going to, I, I don't want dogs that bite me when I'm trying to pick up a toy. So I want really clean drop and then they back up. So it gives me space and I'm not worried about them, you know, grabbing my hands and, and trying to get the toy back. Like I'm not going to trick and treat. Um, so I think, you know, they have the whole Halloween thing of trick or treat. And I'm like, no, for dogs, I feel like a lot of times when I'm helping people, they're, they're tricking and treating. And so they have the dog drop and then they're grabbing it real fast and yanking it away. And then they're like throwing some food at them. And it's like, no, you're, you're trick and treat. Like they're not going to want to, you're doing a great job at drive building. Awesome. They're not going to let go of that again. Good job.

You know, or you're like holding it up over your head and the dog is like jumping up and, you know, and they're trying so hard. I'm like, yeah, you're drive building. Awesome. Good job. You're making that really wonderful. And, but I think what they were trying to do is actually get it away from the dog. And so then I think I'm like, and reinforcing them for the wrong thing they're trying to do. I'm like, yay, good drive building. And they're like, no, I wanted an out. So, yeah. Yeah. So I think, you know, teaching the skills, but then choosing the toys that are going to align with the dog's natural preferences. So you're, you're making play more fun for yourself too. Like there are some toys I can't use because my hands just don't work. So like the balls on the string, I can't hold the string because with my Lyme disease, like a lot of times I can't use it. So there's a lot of compromise. Like the human aspect comes in it really strong there too. Okay. So a little more on the release specifically. Where do people often, I guess, go wrong when they're trying to get a nice clean out when they're trying to teach their dog, you know, let go of the thing. And then how do you approach kind of teaching it and conveying that concept? Well, I have a webinar coming up. And I know poor Melissa, I've been like messaging you like, okay, so it's an hour and a half. Is that too long? It's like, yes, got to cut it down. So I'm like, oh my gosh, there's too much. Like I need. Cram it all in. I know I've crammed too much in. And then I worry because I was talking to Julie Flannery. I sent it to her and I was like, okay. And she's like, you're sharing so much that, you know, you're going to overwhelm people. So I'm just going to put that out there now. I apologize. Don't feel overwhelmed. You have the recording. You might have to watch it a few more times. But yeah, the release, like I said before, is really a key aspect of knowing. And the release is not the end. That is the biggest thing that I think is the mistake I see people make. And also people that just think, oh, it should be easy. It's intuitive for the dog. Okay. Going back to that pet or motor pattern, we talk about like they're orienting to the prey. They are, which is what they do with toys. And then they're chasing it. They're biting it. They're dissecting it. They're eating it. Did you ever hear me say out? I never once said let go or not anywhere. They're in that acquisition phase that we really use that to, you know, pattern our play. That ever out was never a part of it. It is not natural. But the out or the release, it's another behavior.

So when they're trying to, they're creating confusion or tension. When they're repeatedly telling the dog, drop it, drop it, let go. And then they start adding all the colorful words into it. And then it becomes big sentences. You know, what's wrong with you? Why don't you let this go? And then it's frustration. And the dog's not even like, okay, whatever. This is fun because now you're like barking with me. And so it just tends to escalate. The tone escalates. And then it becomes physically taking the toy. And it's making the dog more resistant to letting go because, again, you're building drive for it. Or you're making it really uncertain. So, you know, what exactly do you want? Like, why are you getting so obnoxious? And they start to see it as a game of keep away a lot of times. So if they get out of your reach, well, now they're like off to the races. And now you're chasing. And they're like, this is the best game ever. And you're not feeling that. So another one is just not being consistent with the release cue. So if they're allowed to keep the toy sometimes after the out. And then sometimes, you know, you're just like, oh, fine, whatever. You can have it. Well, it's mixed messages. So it's just good dog training. Inconsistency is going to make it harder because, you know, does it mean let go? What does out mean? And I think being consistent with what you think it means is also important. Teaching it. So I make sure that they understand the concept in a low pressure, like I call it like a cold environment. You know, it's an easy environment. It's somewhere they're used to. And maybe start with like a trade game. People call it switch. That's who I learned it from Fanny Gott. And I think she's kind of one that brought the whole, you know, marker system into popularity. And then the dog is learning that letting go of one toy is then letting them get something even better. So, yeah. Okay. I'll let go of that. And then the dog starts to associate that releasing something positive is not an end of play. And I think that's the big key point. Just like when you recall your dog, is that the end? Well, I hope not. Because if it is, you know, you're taking away the tug. You're taking away freedom in both of those examples. They're both examples of taking away. And instead, I want to think about the out or the release as a transition, as a behavior. So, when they're letting go and exchanging for something, you can generalize that behavior and then start introducing the release cue and the different types of play and various toys. And it's just showing that the out means the same thing.

So, I can ask them for this thing and they know that they're going to get because it's expensive. You know, and I think about some things are worth doing and some are not. And if you give me something and you immediately take it away from me, I don't like that. And so, I think about it on my dog's terms, too, you know. And they really want it. I mean, so, if you give me a chocolate cake and then I'm in the middle of a bite and you take the fork out of my mouth, it's not going to end well. So, maybe if you started with a vanilla cake with me, I would be like, okay. And you switched it with some strawberry cake. I'm like, all right. And you gave me some chocolate. Okay. All right. I see what we're doing here. I'm okay with it now. Maybe. But even the timing of it. Like, if you're taking it, like, as I'm eating it, that's not okay. But if we're trading, you know, after I put my fork back down and then you're putting a new plate down, okay. So, it's the same thing with our dogs. I want to have clear expectations and not feel gypped. And I don't want them to feel tricked or gypped at all. So, consistency. Oh, and reinforcing that behavior immediately. So, every out is a behavior. Just like you teach sit or down or stand or recall. It's just another behavior. And I think that sometimes it just gets thrown in because you want to put toys in your session, but you haven't taught the letting go of the toy properly. And so, then that adds in the conflict. So, toy play and out is a behavior to teach. So, until that's been taught, you really can't bring it into your session, into your structure. Because it's going to muddy everything else up. And I always think about there was a great visual that one of the gun dog people did. And he had a bottle of water and he put some dirt in the bottom. And it settled, you know. And so, it was just a little bit clean water. And then it was like every time that you would say this cue, he would just shake the bottle a little. And, you know, can you imagine like the dust and the dirt kind of like lifting up in the bottle? It gets a little bit murky. And then you'd say it again and you'd shake it again. And it's like, oh. And then it takes a while for that to settle. And I feel like that was such a great visual for the out. Because it's like you say out and the dog doesn't let go. And then you shake that bottle a little. And then you say out again and they don't let go. And you shake it a little more. And well, finally you've got it back. But that bottle is all like gross and the water is all nasty. And that's completely going into the rest of your session.

And it's going to take a while for that to settle down. And so, that's kind of how I visualize it in my mind. I'm like, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can see that now. So, clarity, consistency. Make it positive. Reward the dog for letting it go. And being methodical about it. So, you know, reinforcing the desired behavior. The desired behavior is letting go. All right. So, being able to do that, obviously in a sterile or in your words, a cold environment, right? It's necessarily the same as in the middle of the Frisbee game or in the middle of a bite sport. Or, you know, kind of when the dog's feeling really excited, when they're having some big feelings. How do you layer in teaching those pieces so that your out still kind of holds up even to those bigger feelings? Yeah. That's where the real work of proofing and layering comes in. You have to be thinking and thoughtful. And that can be hard. It can be really hard. And there's kind of, you know, the philosophy of life. Basically, you can either accept things, you can change things, or you can let it go. And it's kind of what I went with in this webinar, too, is when you decide to change, it can be very empowering. But it definitely takes time. It takes effort. And that's something that some people will just accept that it's too difficult or that they'll just have the conflict. And that's where I really am trying to make it as user-friendly as possible to think about. Because if you start with low-stakes situations, and the dog can really succeed. So a low-value toy. I start with my switch with food. So I have a cheese stick in each hand for a larger dog. Like a smaller dog, they would like be stuffed. But you get the idea. But I have a cheese stick, and I hold it in one in each hand. And so I let them eat a piece from one hand. And then I close off my thumb over it, and I say switch. And they eat the piece from the other hand. So you're teaching the concept in a very low-stakes way that they can't have a mistake. And they're getting to eat the food. And they're learning the switch cue. And so it's back and forth. And then they start to have more control over that. And I want my out to not just be open your mouth. Because if you just open your mouth, does that actually mean out? I mean, the toy is still there, whatever it is. They actually have to back up as well. So I want to teach other concepts congruently. So they're learning the trading. They're learning that opening their mouth and backing up. Shirag Patel's drop is my foundation for everything. So if you haven't looked into that, look up Shirag Patel on YouTube, his drop game.

That's, I mean, that's wonderful. But, again, it does take some mechanics. It has to make sure, and I stress this a lot with what I'm teaching, and I think all dog trainers do. You give the cue. You pause. And then give the animal the chance to respond. So when I say, like, get it, I pause. And I want to see my, like, Radish is beautiful at it. She jumps backward. Because she's anticipating that the reward is going to be thrown behind her. And so that's where it needs to be consistent. So when things are really, are heated and the arousal is up, it needs to be so reflexive. It just happens. But that has to start with low-stakes situations, gradually increasing that. And then start putting it into some real-life scenarios. So, you know, the dog might feel a little possessive or a little more excited. And I do train on the edge. So that's something else I have to kind of admit. I tend to get out of my comfort zone a lot. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with some failures along the way. And I think that that might be contrary to some people, you know, wanting to be errorless. And I'm like, I'm not. I'm a little messier than that. I want to ask the question, can you do this? And it's not a test. It's kind of on the edge. Information gathering. Yeah, it's all data collection. And so I put it in real-life scenarios. And I use hierarchy of toys and food. So before I start every session, I ask my dogs. I put three or four things out. And I ask them to pick each thing. Because I want to know that day, what are they into? And it's going to tell me, you know, like, are you into wanting to chase things today? Or are you into wanting to fight today? And Radish is my favorite at that because she has such a balance of those two things. Whereas Checkmate always wants to fight. He's always going to pick the bouncer. And he's always going to pick the viper roll. Like, I just know that's what he's going to do. And Radish, like, she'll jump in the van and grab a bite sleeve. And I'm like, what? And then the next day, she'll grab her chuck it. I'm like, okay. But again, she's a little confused. She's a lab mixed with a Dutch Shepherd. So, you know. So let them pick and show you what their value system is. And then you can start using that under distraction. And then I really focus on reinforcing calmness and control. So I build a lot of in, depending on the dog. And then I add in my control. And for the ones that are already, they really have the in already. I'm building that calmness and control from the very beginning. And always consistent and positive. I don't want to trick and treat.

And I don't want to do all the drive building craziness. I want them to know that out this release is a transition. They get to do something else. And I want to be so consistent about it. There was something that the webinar taught me. Out and mine are the hardest thing for my dogs. And it's because I lack consistency. Everything else, they're super clear on. Like, fast response. So good. But out means let go of the decoy or let go of the helper. And mine means let go of the thing in my hand. And what I saw, and I started catching myself two or three times. And just like the day that I was recording, I was like, I said mine. And it was the end. I'm like, are you kidding me? No wonder I'm getting conflict. So I really had to sit down and think, what do I want mine to be? And for checkmate specifically in my sport, when he outs from being in front of someone, they go into a guard phase, which means they're supposed to sit there and stare at you. And so that's when I started reinforcing. So I would say mine. I would have him sit. And then I reinforce by saying face. And I put the toy back in his mouth. And so every mine now, that's how I'm reinforcing it. I'm going to be consistent. And guess what? You won't believe this. Do you know how much better his mine is now? It's brilliant. You mean training works? What? It does work. And not just training, though, because I've been training before, but it's the consistency. And it was the recognizing that I wasn't being consistent or clear. And so instead of, and I was having to say, like, mine sit, mine foos. You know, like, I'd have to tell him what was next to make sure that it was going to be worth it to him to do the next thing. And if it wasn't, he would just hold on to it. And I'm like, oh, you didn't want to do that? Okay, let me guess something else. How about mine cushion? Or cushion is my down cue. You know, and he's like, no, I don't do that either. I'm like, ah. But now that I'm being consistent, guess who's letting go of their toy? So yeah, that was a long, I'm long winded. Wow. Woo. No, you're good. You kind of teased the webinar a bit. But before we get to that, obviously, you worked as a decoy. You're not just like training the sport just on the handler side. You also do some decoy work. So how has that informed how you kind of think about this big picture? It seems like it's definitely played a role. Oh, for sure. That's where I've learned everything. Uh, so as a decoy, I wear a big poofy suit and I teach dogs to bite me really hard, um, and to push in and to try to hurt me. Um, it doesn't make any sense, but I love it.

And in my other sport, IGP, um, I teach them to bite a sleeve that I'm wearing and they can't chomp. They can't move their grip. They have to bite it hard and they have to stay there and they have to be really powerful. Um, so that's, that's what I do in my free time. Uh, and so you can only imagine, um, I'm already, uh, kind of an active person and loves like the adrenaline rush. And so I think that's why I got into it. The first time I went to club and I saw it, I was like that I want to do what that person's doing. And everybody else is like, why would you want to do that? Because so being kind of an adrenaline junkie myself. Um, it helps me understand arousal states because I get jacked. Like I can feel all of those happy chemicals pumping. And I think it gives me a really strong dose of empathy for the dog because it's like a primary reinforcer for me too. Um, so I'm right in the middle of the action. I get a front row seat to how the dog's arousal level is. I can feel their grip. I can feel how my behavior affects their behavior and I let them impact me. So when they push in, I become one of those, um, oh, I looked at the name of it. I forgot. Like at the tire stores, I'm like, whoo, the little wavy, what is that? The inflatable wavy arm, guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so when they bite hard, that's what I do. I'm like, wow, you know, and I get verbal and my whole body likes a raggedy end and my arms go flailing. I'm glad this isn't on video, but I kind of wish it was so you could see my craziness. Um, but when they're really committed, I really want to, um, to push their drive even higher to its peak. Okay. Well now what do you do? Like you're, you're at your peak, they're at their peak. You know, I, I recognize that sometimes it's not, they're not just ignoring the release cue. I mean, they're so focused on that task that you have to figure out ways to, to bring them back to earth. Um, and I, I feel about myself too. So I think that insight's really what informs my approach to training the release. Um, I work on teaching them to manage their arousal levels and to transition from intense focus to, to kind of a calmness, that kind of arousal mobility. And, um, that means I have to, you know, practice release and stages. And that's where play comes in. I get to play with everybody's dogs. Are you kidding me? I have like the best game ever. Like everyone that comes to club, I'm like, I get to play with your dog. Um, and so as a decoy too, I really have to, um, have a lot of trust between the handler, the dog. That's, that's really what's going to build this whole thing for all of us.

Um, the dog has to trust that releasing the bite isn't going to mean they're going to lose. I don't want them feeling like they're losing anything. It's a transition to get to do more things. And so the trust is something I really heavily emphasize, emphasize in our training. Um, it's, it's about trusting that there's more to come, whether it's another round of play or a different reward, but they get to do something else. It's not taking something away. So a lot of positive reinforcement, a lot of consistency, and they learn that the release is not the end. Um, and that concept is crucial for maintaining control, especially during high arousal situations. And then timing and precision, that's all been huge for me. Uh, when they're highly aroused, you know, the timing of your commands and what you choose to reinforce with is really important. So I'm not going to ask them to out as we're like thrashing and going crazy. Instead, I'm going to wait. And for some dogs, I'm going to slow my work down. I'm going to really focus on my breathing and I can use an exhale and that's enough that the dog goes, Oh, the outs coming. And so that's an important cue that I can use. Uh, and so when I'm taking this, um, very deliberate approach about how I'm asking them to out, I'm also going to be thoughtful about when I ask them to out. And I also think about kind of that physical and mental conditioning too, because the dog is gradually exposed to higher levels of excitement. I don't just throw them in the ring and say, Hey, figure it out, dude. That's just, uh, that's, that's frustration waiting to happen. And so that means too, I have to condition myself mentally to being patient. Sometimes I just want the things we can move on to the next thing. It's a transition, but I need to be patient. And so when I'm highly aroused and they're highly aroused, that's a lot to ask of me as a human. So I have to build a lot of patience in my day-to-day life. So I'm a high school art teacher. That's how it works for me. Fair enough. Um, all right. So back to the webinar topic. Um, tell us what we need to know. Uh, what are you going to cover? What should people be thinking about if they're debating, if they want to join us? Um, talk about the webinar a little bit. Uh, I need more hours to talk about it. I'm still cutting and hacking. Ah, um, I came up with. I like acronyms. Uh, and so I used out as my acronym. And so I have O as observation, U as understanding, and T as transition. And I think maybe if that, um, jives with the way you think about things, then this is for you.

I think about the O as emphasizing the importance of being in tune with your dog's body language, their emotional state, before giving the out command or cue. I like to call them cues. Command just feels, I don't know, like a command strip you hang on a wall. Like, this is just something you're, you're asking a question kind of your dog. And I think it's really important to observe how the dog is interacting, you know, with the toy or the item, if it's me or whatever. And are they highly aroused? Are they possessive? Are they relaxed? Like, I'm asking questions. That's what observation is, is asking questions. So by carefully watching your dog, you can anticipate how they're going to respond to that cue. And it helps you adjust your approach accordingly. So this one's, I think, all about, um, training is dynamic. It's, it's a dynamic process. So you have to adjust on the fly and that's where understanding their needs comes in, the you and the out. So this is the importance of empathy. And that's the piece I think, um, that patience comes in as well. So I'm considering my dog's needs. I'm considering their drives. Uh, I'm understanding their motivations behind their behavior. Like, why is it so hard for this dog to let go and so easy for this one? Yukon, the out was given to me. Quinn, my unicorn of a dog, um, I told him out. Yukon watched it. I never had to teach Yukon an out. He gave it to me. He was like, oh, that's all you do? Cool. I'm like, are you kidding me? And it was that easy. And he has one of the cleanest, best outs ever. And it's this gorgeous, like, pop back and everybody's like, whoa, that's impressive. I'm like, I know. But that's him. Yeah, right. And I, I mean, I, I'll tell everybody. I mean, I just told everybody here, you know, it's listening. He gave me that. And, um, that was a gift that Quinn gave me. And it's so beautiful understanding how dogs interact and that they can learn from each other too. And then that takes me to the T. Um, the T in out is the transition and it's focusing on what happens after the release. Out is not the end. Did I say that before? Maybe once. Okay, good. Okay. So the out cue is not just a demand to let go, but I want you to think about it as another behavior. So just like sit, if you say sit, your dog sits, what happens next? Does another behavior happen? Do you reinforce the sit? And it depends on where you are in your training progression. So by planning that transition, whether it's another behavior, another round of play, a different reinforcement, I don't know what you're going to do, but it helps the dog understand

that releasing the item is just one part of this bigger, um, interaction. It's a transition. And so it prevents the dog from seeing the out as the end of the fun and it makes them more willing to keep doing the thing. So if that kind of jives with how you see things or you're like, yeah, that's interesting, then it's definitely something that you might enjoy. Um, I don't think it maybe is as typical as what I was thinking. Like, it's not just, um, you do this and this is how you teach out, but it's the holistic approach. So it's about arousal mobility. I talk a lot about that, um, and how I do it with my dogs. And the way I record my webinar is, um, it's all a big live demo. And then I put, um, like words and things on the side. And so if you are a person that likes to see it and, um, watch it like as it goes, then that's how I do it. If you're a person that you're like, oof, I'd rather read more. Well, I put stuff on the side that says what I'm doing. So you don't have to read and listen and do it all at once. You can do one or the other and you're not going to miss things. So I, um, and also I didn't have enough time, so I had to add more words. But I do think that this can resonate with novice and experienced trainers because, um, I do, uh, talk about if you've never taught an out before and how to start with food. Um, kind of like I talked about with switch with the food, um, to teaching backup and the concepts that go into out all the way to the person that has the dog that right now will not out. And I bring Nico in it and he's a FEMA level, um, big, bad apple, um, I caught myself, uh, Dutch shepherd. And he loves to fight. And, um, I call it troubleshooting. He, during my demo, he steals a toy and it's really hilarious. And I'm like, okay, we'll just roll with it. So I'm very vulnerable in my webinars and I'm like, I show all the mistakes and I show that he steals a toy and I'm like, okay, well now I have to get this back. And how do I do it with a dog that I don't have a relationship with? And so I work through it and it's, it's lovely and he's a beautiful dog. Aw. All right. So I think that hopefully gives folks a little bit of an idea, um, you know, kind of what you'll be talking about and whether or not this maybe is for them. Do you have any final thoughts or maybe key points you just kind of want to leave folks with? Toy play and training are about building, um, a, a, a deeper connection with your dog, about building a relationship. And I know I've talked a lot about kind of the mechanical side of it, but it's not just about getting them to drop a toy or perform a cue.

It's about observing their behavior. It's about understanding their needs and creating that smooth transition between actions. And that's what makes it fun. That's what makes it rewarding for not just the dog, but you too. Like this, this needs to be fun for everybody. And like we said earlier, every dog is an individual. They have preferences. They have different drives. They have quirks. Uh, and by being, and we're, we're quirky too. I didn't know if you knew that, but you know, like some have physical limitations and, you know, there's so many things to consider. And by being mindful of these differences and really approach your training with empathy and, and patience and, and compassion for your, for your animal and yourself. Like I even talk in the webinar about being, um, forgiving. Uh, I need to forgive myself sometimes about the mistakes that I've created and, and now I've dug myself a hole and, and I'm working through in the webinar of how I'm fixing checkmates out because I let it go. And so that's a big piece of it is, is kind of that, um, uh, empathy with ourselves and then consistency. You get this strong trusting relationship and it's going to make your training just be amazing. So never underestimate the importance of play, uh, through play. We build the trust. We reinforce the good behaviors. We build confidence and resiliency, but most importantly, have fun together. So if you're working on a solid release or enjoying quality time, keep it positive, keep it playful and enjoy the journey with your dog. I love that. What a good place to end things. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Crystal. Thank you so much. Aw. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Kamal Fernandez to talk about duration behaviors. That's kind of the opposite of an out. Um, if you haven't already, subscribe to the podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Bud. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training.