보너스 에피소드: Bow Wow Bill 팟캐스트의 Ivan Balabanov (2023년 11월 26일)

And I've had a bunch of different dogs that I did train. I've had some German Shepherds. I had a collie, female, that I really kind of took off with that, and that was the time where I was like, okay, I know. It's not that I think. I know that I'm good at this. But back in Bulgaria, it was really a dead end at the time. We're talking, you know, very, very different. Like if you picture... Yeah, let's make the short version anyway. Okay. So, yeah. I have my kennel. I breed Malinois for, I don't know, since 89. I compete in IGP primarily, but I've always done some form of ring sport. It was the first one that basically bred and trained a dog to go to the Mondewring World Championships from the States. I don't know when that was like probably late 90s or something. Ever since I came to the States, I've been having a pet dog business. And there's been times when the pet business was a little bit in the background, especially when I was working at Guide Dogs. That was a very, very demanding time. But I was very fortunate to get that job because, you know, immediately I was able to have benefits from work. And apply for credit card if you want. Because I really started with some pocket money. And a big dream. And so from there, yeah, the pet business really, it's even as of now, we have, it's very successful. We are quite selective, I will say, to what we take for training. At the point where I am right now, it's, it has to be something stimulating, mind stimulating, something interesting, something challenging, something where I need to invest in. Or, of course, yeah, if I feel that I can help a dog with problems, and it seems like I'm, you know, their last call, so to speak, then I think very hardly, you know, we try to take dogs like that. But at the same time, you know, working in the shelter at the SPCA for five years, that was a very tasking on my mind job. Because, you know, you, if anybody that works or have any experience with this kind of work, it's, there is plenty of dogs that can be adopted and stay out for good. But there is a saying, every train has its passengers. And sometimes that train doesn't come for that right dog. And as the dog stays long enough, eventually some hard decisions have to be made.

And that was pretty, pretty hard for me. And so today when we take dogs in training, as I said, I do take dogs that are interesting. And I'm not, it doesn't mean that they are trying to eat me or, you know, there is, of course, that side of sometimes of dogs. But it has to be something that is of interest, that challenges me, that I get excited about. I'm going out, I'm training even my dog. And I'm thinking about that one, what, what am I doing there? So, needless to say, we do take also some just talented young dogs. Being for sport, being for service type of work, being for pet training. But, you know, just really trying to be smart about balancing what I do to where sometimes when there is talent in the dog, it's very enjoyable to just move on and move on and move on. And not always hit problems. And it's not always a life or death situation, you know? Yeah. Well, it's like a road of communication, a relationship building aspect where you're also learning from this animal. And then when you went to Belgium, tell me about Belgium, because you came from Bulgaria, you were passionate about dogs. And then you went to Belgium. Did you do anything with the dogs there? Yeah, yeah. It was really the only reason I went there. I mean, I was ready to work in chicken farms. I was ready to do whatever it took. And where I'm coming from, again, I was really, I'm like, I knew that I can do, I can take care of myself. I don't need welfare and social security and all these groups that are very valuable. But you can get stuck in this kind of environment. And I never thought of that. I was just like this one truck mind. I had somebody that helped me. I had like a few people that helped me escape. And yeah, it was my way out. So immediately, I mean, immediately it was, okay, let's go get a dog. Now it's finally a time that I can have a dog. And there was a guy that helped me get out and helped me set in a little in the beginning, which was very important. Andre van der Getten. So he, in his little town, I'm going to say village, but now who knows how big that is. It's not like Belgium has become. When I went there, you still had villages that you drive from one to the other. And it's almost everything is so connected that one village, it's divided by a street now. But anyway, it was a small place. I got to help me find a job as an electrician, which I was very good at. That was my forte. As far as, you know, when I was living in Bulgaria, that's how I was making my money.

My father was a, yeah, he had an electrical company. And so I was doing a lot of just anything electric. Now I get people to do it. Yeah, in a different way. But yeah, I got through him and the people in that club, the little town, the name was Alken. It's like in Limburg. Hasselt is like the bigger place. So anyway, I got introduced right away. Like, I don't know, like I think I have a, I'm sure it's my desire and paying attention and navigating well around things. But there is a lot of luck that a lot of cool things have happened in my life that it's really, you know, the stars get aligned. So what happened there was I got introduced to the most well-known breeder at the moment, the Dioputois kennel, Luc Vance de Bruges. And I was like, I'm going to compete. I'm going to need a really good dog. And he's like, he's speaking French. I don't speak French. I barely speak English. We was translating. And he's like, I have a dog for you. He brings me a female with a big white chest, big white feet. What kind of dog was it? Malinois. Malinois. The Dioputois is a very popular, very famous. And it's kind of like really, that was the kennel. And I'm not saying that was the best place because there was a lot of different places. And then you add France and Netherlands. And there was definitely places. But he single-handedly made the breed famous around the world. That's without a doubt how it all started because a bunch of people from Germany at the time, Peter Engel and, well, I'm so bad with names that I'm not going to even attempt anymore. But anyway, that's kind of, they, you know, they spread out. So I got the Malinois female, which I didn't want because she had so many whites on her. It wasn't the Malinois I was looking in the pictures. I've never even seen in person Malinois at the time. And, of course, there is another little nice, cute, dark male puppy walking around the kitchen there. I'm like, I take this one. And she was a return. She was already, like, maybe close to four months old. Got returned from Switzerland for, I'm not sure why. So we had a big argument. He's like, are you going to do sport? You're going to take that dog. If you want to do whatever, then take that dog. And he was kind of, you know, I mean, I don't blame him because at the time, as I said, he was becoming very popular. He was on demand. And even though there was a lot of dogs and puppies

and breedings going on, yeah, it wasn't easy. Eventually, the cool story was that he made me, he's like, okay, I'll give you that little one, but you take her also. And in two weeks, you bring one back, whatever you want. And so, needless to say, I mean, there was no comparison between the two of qualities. So I brought the handsome little dog back, and I kept a female, and she ended up being my, my first breeding female for the Oudvitusche kennels. And originally, because of how I got introduced, I got into the Belgian ring, which was a great experience and super interesting. Then I was also fortunate to be arrived around the time when Mondieu ring was forming, when there was a meeting, like in Tournai, and like there will come these big names and try to make that Mondieu ring program. And the French are like, oh, we need to have this. And the Belgians, no, we need to have, you know, this was very cool times. As I was starting to realize that I'm going somewhere else, and I don't know why, but I was, it was just the group of people I was with, all of a sudden, Belgium was like, became too small or something, I don't know. Like, I guess my friends got excited about adventures, and it's very easy to, you know, when you're young to jump on that wagon. So, yeah, there was Australia as a first option. Then I realized Australia was like a nine-month quarantine with dogs. So, easily gut scratched this out. Was thinking of South Africa. Then South Africa just became a big unrest with, you know, Nelson Mandela time, and it was really became like, you just don't know. And, yeah, so then I went to a library or a bookstore, and I was like, okay, let's see, where do I go in the States? And, of course, if you're in Europe at the time, you know. What year was this? Do you remember? Like, 88. Okay. Yeah. So, it was between San Francisco or San Diego, and San Francisco sounded better. No other reason. Didn't know nobody. Didn't know nothing. It was like, okay, we go to San Francisco. Somehow tried to do some research, and all my friends are like, well, there is no ring sport in there. You better start doing, think about it. They're trying to keep me to stay in Belgium also, but also helping me out for sure. Like, I always had good people helping. And so then I had to kind of switch gears and go full, all in, IHP, Schutzkund stuff. And, yeah, that's when I met the people in California. So, you come over to California, and how did you get over here? Did you fly? Or did you, how was, what are you drinking, by the way? It's a very cool Dominican rum from one of my students that brings it.

And, yeah. And the cigars are also just friends would give me some. But I was recently in Bulgaria, and oddly enough, from Bulgaria, I can buy any Cuban, like, top-of-the-line cigars for very different price and bring it here. So I bought myself a bunch of things from there. And I also bought some Cuban rum. And, yeah, not that it's any, it's all, you know, there's always the grass greener on the other side. There is good stuff here. There is good stuff anywhere. And we, you know, but. Did they still not sell Cuban cigars here in America? No, no, no. We are still, yeah, we're still, there was a, I don't know when was it, but kind of, I think it was early on Obama's presidency where things were starting to look like Cuba and the States may at least have some better, you know. But they're under the embargo. We are, you know. Still doing it, huh? And you're down right by them in Florida now. Yes. And luckily, we always, like, really, just give me one second. Oh, you're good. You're good. I was just in Costa Rica, and they had Cuban cigars there as well. And it's just, it's, they're all over the place, man. But not here. Yes. Yeah, we, I mean, it's really, I think, hour and a half, if not less, a flight from Tampa to Havana. And my wife and I have other European passports, so we can go. We can go, and it's almost every so often we're like, we need to go. When do we go? Oh, let's go next month. And, of course, next month there is, like, the calendar. You look, and there's just no escape. But I hope we can make it one day, because I like traveling. I've traveled a lot. I like what I do now. But there's times where it's like, yeah, it's traveling. I appreciate. It's kind of in my blood somewhere. Yeah, the more I, the older I get, the more I just like them to make it a little bit more purposeful. Right? And anybody that does not like America, I tell them to travel anywhere else, man, because that's one of the things that when you come back, or when you go to another place, you don't see the infrastructure, and the conveniences that we have that I think we take for granted here. Yeah. Right? They need to travel elsewhere to just kind of experience another culture, another place. And I see a bunch of people commenting. I'll get to your comments here in a little bit, you guys. But I wanted to just chat with Ivan here for a bit, just because I wanted to just get to know you, man. Like, this is fantastic. Some kids should be forced to travel to some countries, because no matter how much anybody complains, including myself, there is no place. Right now. And who knows for how long, but still today.

For me, there is no other place that comes close to what we have here. Yeah. I'm thankful, man. I'm thankful for so many aspects. I mean, even the ability to go to an airport right now and travel, right? And go anywhere in the country. And, you know, just call 911. Have the ambulance show up. Have police show up. The ability. I'm a big supporter of arming myself. For sure. I have guns. I like my guns. I never had to pull it, but I have the license to carry it anywhere I go. And I'm just thankful that I have that ability of self-defense, that I don't have to rely on anybody else, especially nowadays. I'm up in Seattle, Ivan. Oh, yeah. It's a little crazy up here. And even San Francisco, your first spot when you came over here is getting a little crazy as well. San Francisco, man. I like the place. And I still like the place to go because I know where to go. Like, there is some nostalgia and there is some almost like a culty, like little restaurants that people don't know. And they're still there. Awesome. So, but it changed. It's definitely a shame, but that's where we are. It's a little bit different there. But I'm with you on guns, and I think that's one of the things that, you know, like it or not, don't want to turn this into that kind of podcast. But, you know, it's good to have your rights. Well, coming from a communist beginning too, man, like that is something that I – and do you think that coming from Bulgaria and coming from communism – and I remember you saying that you were able to make your own living, that you didn't have to rely on social structures and whatnot. Do you think that that might be a function of growing up in that type of environment for you? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, most of my friends didn't dare to take that chance that I did. There was a lot of people eventually started to travel and migrate, but it was on a different, much more safer approach than what I was doing at the time. But, yeah, communism is just a bad idea. It's just a very bad idea. And, you know, like I remember being in Belgium, remember being in the first time in San Francisco, you know. It never crossed my mind that I'm going to – I mean, I'm a young, strong, healthy guy. Like I don't – I can – and I didn't care how I'm going to – if it was to go in McDonald's and make my money at McDonald's. I know I'm not staying there forever, but it's perfectly okay to do that. Same thing with the languages, you know. Like even – like where I was in Belgium, it was the Flemish-speaking part of the country. Okay. And it's a very crazy mixture. And there is some German kind of – well, not kind of quite a bit,

but it's – so – but it's its own language. And, yes, I – there was no YouTube. There was no – so I had to go to the little – I don't know what was it called at the time, but like a school. And after night, after hours, like they had courses, and I would go pay for my own school and learn Flemish. And it was very difficult. And the part that was difficult wasn't the language itself. It was the fact that everybody in the Flemish side, which is kind of nuances of how Belgium still is. But the Flemish part, they always were very good at speaking English, and they like to speak English. And while the French, they stick with their language. So me trying to learn Flemish when everybody's talking to me in English, it was like, guys, this will never happen. Like we just – you're not helping me a bit. You make it worse. Right. But anyway, I mean, I put the time, and that's kind of what I'm saying. It's like I do what I feel like if I'm going to a country that I'm going to live. I'm interested in integrating in the country and being part and contribute to where I'm going. And so that's always been a factor for me. Well, do you think that your experience of not knowing a language – and I always tell people the greatest form of knowledge comes through experience, right? And we could read about stuff. We could watch documentaries. But until you experience it, that's gnosis, right? That's knowledge through experience. And I think that some people, going back to the Bulgarian and communism and some of the people that you see didn't really strive as much as you did. And we could talk about this as well, is that learned helplessness as well. And that's where we see some aspects of working with animals. And in interspecies communication, that's – they're learning through experience as well how to live in a human world. Yeah, that's been something in my mind lingering for as long as I remember myself. And I'm sure there was some genetic predisposition to build – you know, just fuck it. but at least I have to give it a try. I can fail, but I have to give it a try. And so, you can say, pretty big risk taker with big dreams. It was – if the dog factor wasn't there, it's always been a question, would I still do what I did? And I probably would have just because I was very – I hated living there. Like, it's a – you know, like I am very proud to be an individual, being a person of my own. And living in those places, one of the big objectives of, like, the Communist Party is to make us all equal, make us all the same. Correct. Which – correct. Which, for many people, they're very grateful.

And if you have the choice, and that's your choice, great. But I didn't like to be forced what clothes I can wear, how long my hair should be, what music I can listen to, or who my friends are. You know, and that's a stuff that the kids, especially in your backyard in Seattle, they – I wish they go there to experience what it really means to be this extreme socialist, communist kind of place. But again, it's – I have a lot to say about that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that that's where – excuse me. You and I have something in common, man, because you tell me what to do, and I'll laugh in your face. And maybe it's because I was born and raised here in America, and we kind of have – a lot of people don't realize that we do have still that kind of rebellious, independent nature about us. And I love it. You know, that's what I love about being in America. And I see these kids walking around with the Che Guevara and the communist flag, and I'm just like, you guys, you have no clue what you're freaking endorsing here. And – but maybe you're right. Maybe some of the people prefer that, maybe because they believe it's easier. Maybe they haven't had the strength through the struggle that you've endured by traveling all around, learning new languages, going to brand new environments, and then making your way to be the best in what you do, right? Like a world champion. And, I mean, not everybody's like that, but there is strength in struggle. There is strength in enduring. But you do have to have that mindset, and it's like, what does it take? And I don't really know the answer to that. Yeah. It's a very – and I remember myself being – that there is something to be said about when you are under a certain age. You look at that in a little bit more hopeful way, more promising way. But there is the moment – hopefully everybody gets to experience that moment where you're working very hard, and somebody or many others are not. And everything is spread out equal, and it's really unfair to say it, you know, frankly. So, yeah, I think the most people that get successful in whatever their area, hopefully of expertise, of being able to contribute in somewhere, and get older, and they start to be, you know, independent and doing well for themselves. And then that makes you more motivated to do well for yourself once you see the fruits of your efforts. Right. Right? And so it's a self-fulfilling type of thing, but it's also – And you surround yourself like – this is another thing that I've experienced. It's like you – I 100% believe in this. It's like when you – if you're a hard worker, and not just hard worker,

because there's – there are many hard workers in the world, but really don't have a desire or a vision or anything. Besides, I wake up, I go to work, and I come back, and I watch TV, and you're working hard. That's a given. But there is hard workers with a goal of I want to accomplish something in my life. I want to contribute something. And that – then you get surrounded with a like-minded, like people. And the same goes the other way. Like back in the communism, it was like, okay, well, I don't even know how to say that one in English, but it was a let's you do it. You know, we're kind of talking from all of us, but you do it. Right. You know? Yeah, yeah. Nobody takes initiative. Right. And it doesn't mean that – like I understand that there's also people that are – they're go-getters, but we also need the people – I call them like entrepreneurs, right? Like I consider myself an entrepreneur. Nobody told me to start my dog business. Nobody told me to start this podcast or anything. It was something that I felt the need, and I just did it. Right. But we have entrepreneurs, but we also have the intrapreneurs, like the people that go in and clock in and clock out. And there's actually a freedom to that as well because now you don't have to worry just like what you're saying about how much – you look at the calendar. And I tell people as an entrepreneur, I'm the worst boss I've ever had. Oh, it's insane. I believe it. I think that's how it is. And especially I think for many of us, and in my case, it's almost so exaggerated, so amplified that any client, even if I have 300 people and there is number 301, and I'm like, I have to say no. I just should not. But that whole mentality and that whole fight for years is like how can you say no? So that was something that I had to learn at some point in my life to – even though it seems like, oh, this is like a 10-minute or half an hour thing, no big deal. It's like, no, no, no. It always turns into a big deal. It's always going to take time that you can put in something else. Well, it's like those dogs too, saying no to those dogs, especially those outlier dogs. And when you came over to work with the AASPCA and seeing as you put it the train going by and not room for this dog, I mean, it's just – there just comes up a time where the expiration date comes, right? Right. And as an entrepreneur too, if we're yes men to everybody, the boundaries are very important, right? And you can have the boundaries that are like Guantanamo Bay or you can have the little rickety overgrown fence that people can walk right over.

And it's important to establish those boundaries as an entrepreneur. I've learned that myself. But it's also important to establish some boundaries on what dogs you selectively take and work with because those that might not – will receive the most benefit, right? There's some dogs that are out there that might do well with just somebody else. But, you know, and that also goes with your network of people. I also have a saying that your network is your net worth, right? And so if you surround yourself with good people, entrepreneurs that celebrate your victories, then that's what you're going to get. But if you surround yourself with people that are going to be bringing you down and always questioning what you're doing and why are you doing that and always take the safe route, then you're not going to reach the achievements that I think that you would like as somebody that wants to be successful. Yeah, very true. Very true. But boundaries are so important. So you do mostly pet dogs or what exactly? Yes, sir. What is your thing? I do mostly pet dogs. And I actually travel around too where I go to people's places and stay on site with them and just kind of live in the house with them and just kind of help them out with seeing how I'll handle a situation. I'm all about connecting with the animal and relationship-based and understanding that particular individual. And that's where I want to help the people. I tell people I represent the dog's best interest. I'm kind of like an attorney for the animal. Like I want them to be successful. Man, that's a very interesting approach. I mean, it's a very sound approach because who cares if the dog is good in your kennel or in your garage or whatever? And there is still the owner and there is still the environment the dog lives with. But that must be tasking. That's a lot of – that's kind of traveling and staying in different places for some time. Yeah, it's a little awkward at first. Right? But I'm also figuring out the dynamic of the family. Right? Oh, no, no. For sure. As far as the model, it's very sound, as I said. It's just – it's – you know, you're on the road. Yeah, and you have to qualify the clients. That's where I understand fully these boundaries and making sure that the people are in the right situation. And sometimes even with the dog, just like with the dog, the Malinois that you wanted versus the Malinois that you got, sometimes it's – it doesn't really – it's not congruent. For sure. It's an incongruent situation. And so sometimes I do a matchmaking where I go out and I'll find the dog for the family that would be much better in their situation.

And if need be, I can also help them find a placement for the dog that they have. And sometimes that's a heart-wrenching decision. But that's – but we also find a more congruent, happy, fulfilling life for that animal as well. A lot of times, Ivan, my clients are 65 to 80 years of age. And so this is the last dog that they're ever going to have. And maybe they just had a misconception of the dog that they purchased. Bad breeding. Not good – not sound temperament testing for that animal. Yeah. And it's a lot of moving parts in what I do. And that's why I don't really advertise to the general public. I kind of keep it word of mouth. And I do charge a premium for what I do as well because, like you said, I travel a lot. And this is a huge investment for me emotionally. And I call it, you know, whenever you were saying about that last 10 minutes, right, it's still a lot of energetic residue that it builds up in your brain that you're thinking about these people a lot of times and what you should do with this dog, what you should do with their situation. And so it takes an investment of time, emotional, and some of the real estate in my brain as well. So it's important to be selective on my clients. What do you like? What are your favorite things to do? Oh, my favorite things to do with the dog or with the client. I actually turn the table back on you now. Yeah. Simply because I don't know much or if anything about you. That's why it's just really pure curiosity. And that's one of the reasons why I wanted to know more about you too is because I love training through play. I love to get to know the dog through just playing with a man and having a good rapport. Just like with any relationship, rapport is power. And rapport, the cornerstones of rapport are trust and love, in my opinion. And we have to build that. And just like at first it's awkward, the clients learn to trust me and then learn to trust the situations I put them in. And eventually as a good teacher, I need to become progressively unnecessary because I'm going home. But the situation is staying the same, right? And I say it's the same dynamic except it's a little bit smaller with the dog. The dog learns to trust them, learns to trust the situations they put them in. And eventually learns to trust himself in a human world. And every single dog is different. And those wants and desires for that individual animal are just as important as my wants and desires are to me. Your wants and desires are to you. And that's why I kind of, I say I'm a... But you have like some specialty more, something more pulling you towards like, I don't know,

one case versus another. Like what kind of, what is, not what you do, but what are the cases that are of interest to you? If you had just all the opportunity in the world to what would be that you would be playing around with? What kind of cases in dogs? Um, probably just, I mean, just, I like matchmaking and I like to have English. My favorite dog is this, I got this breeder English Labs with these family pet dogs. And they're kind of just, just eager to please dogs that are all around just great for the family life. Got it. Right. Big, big lugs. And so I probably have, through my career, gee, many Christmas, I found some good breeders. And, um, and so I bought, I actually have one going home, uh, here in a couple of weeks in Haley, Idaho, that I'll be down there. And then I do an integration process. And that's probably my favorite thing is integrating the new dog in the new house, set up a nice schedule for them and, um, teaching them just the value of having a good relationship with that dog. And exposing them to many different aspects of experience that they will endure in the human environment. Idaho borders with, with, uh, Washington state, right? What's that? Idaho. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. A lot of people move there now, seems like from, from, uh, Seattle and stuff. Well, not a lot, but the people that are not really fond of, of how, what's happening. Um, yeah, I might be one of them, you know, it's just, but it's also, um, you know, that's, that's my favorite aspect is just learning. And I try to have an eclectic knowledge base. I want to learn from as many people as I can. And so I have pearls that I can apply to, to different situations. And, and so I don't consider myself even a balanced trainer, a positive trainer, anything. I don't really brand myself as any type of trainer. I I'm an individual and whatever the case is, is requiring, that's what we're going to bring to the table. And I would love someday actually to come down to one of your, um, certifications as well. I, uh, Jay Jack, um, I, I went to one of his seminars and he spoke very highly of you and Jay Jack, the car wreck that he got into, he's doing much better. But, um, God bless him. That was wild. Yeah, that was wild. I don't know what we were talking, but he was, he messaged me probably a couple of hours before all that happened. Like just a random text message. Yeah. Oh, but yeah. And he's doing better, but he was the one that really, I was like, man, I need to learn from Ivan because the, the way that he was doing the play, the steal your toy stuff.

I don't know if you know that game, but, um, where, where you're, you're playing with your dog and he comes to try to steal your dog with the toy, but the, but you're still playing with them. Um, is kind of how he did it. And I was just, I was very intrigued and that's, that's what I like is just that trust and communication, the rapport that you get with your dog and getting to know what motivates them as well. Does that answer your question? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of times with my pet clients, like I have to do this in a lay, lay person format, because if I go to them and I start talking some, um, you know, jargon that is about conditioning or doing whatever, it's going to go over their head. And it's got to be in analogies that they, they understand, accept, and are able to apply. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, that's a dog trainers downfall. I think, uh, trying to, trying to impress and, and talk, uh, uh, language that just goes over the heads of most people. And, um, and, but I also think the same about analogies. I think that's another big downfall, like dog trainers for some reason are extremely, like, I don't know of any other industry that there, there is always an analogy, always an analogy, always an analogy. And it's like, there's, there's times that you can just talk about the dog and the person in the training without the analogy. And it actually makes way more sense to keep giving analogies. That's just my two cents on that one. Can you think of one that, that would illustrate that? Um, oh no. I mean, they are endless, like no, nothing in particular. It just, I, I think every, like, like, I mean, any, any time you, you put any dog trainer on YouTube and you listen them talk. And if the video is longer than the clickbait five, whatever, like the short clips. The reels. If it, if it has a little more substance, let's say within 10 minutes of video, you will, I will put money. You will hear at least four analogies of sorts. And I'm not saying that they are not applicable. But there is no need for them all the time. For some reason, again, as I said, the dog trainers are just, there is these two things. That they believe that if they, if as a trainer, you can speak that lingo. And if you give cool analogies, therefore you're a good dog trainer. Yeah. Well, you need to be able to decipher the analogy too and give it into a precise manner that's understandable as well. And the reason what the analogies I think work for me is because of the family unit. Right. And if you ever lose somebody in that dynamic of that family, you're done.

You know, and that's where, and sometimes you come into a situation where the dad is like, aha, I told you. Right. But there's, there's nurturing aspects of the mom that are important as well. And I have to bring that to the table and, and, and recognize that. Yeah. And I'm, again, I'm not saying we should never give analogies, but, but I, I'm, what I'm trying to say is that I'm against using analogies as a testament of my ability or superiority as a dog trainer. And the same with the lingo. Like, like, like I can, I can talk and I know what I'm talking about as far as like scientific language. Yes. But there is zero need for that. In fact, when we, we have my school, um, learning, learning the, learning the theory is super important, but learning how to talk to somebody that has that English lab, as you said, without using even the word conditioning, even sometimes even, you know, relationship. Relationship engagement, reactivity, like they just firing out words and not necessarily in losing the meaning when they are important to be said. Important to, to be defined too, because, because, because I say relationship and I call this wobbly terminology. What a relationship means to me could be completely different what it means to you or somebody else. Right? Exactly. And there is that, I, a philosophical, um, um, I, I don't know, I think it was played or I don't know who, but one, one of those big brains. And he asked them to draw a, a dog and everybody draw a dog. And surely enough, no dog was alike. Um, so, so, you know, when words and definitions are interesting thing. Well, and Jay Jack helped me out with this, man. I love that guy. We were talking and, um, I don't know. Did you ever get on that app clubhouse? That was a video only app. Well, during pandemic, it was super popular, man. And, uh, I live in Florida, not in Seattle. Our pandemic lasted. Maybe four weeks. Oh, DeSantis. You're absolutely right, man. It was locked down tight here, dude. And I saw, you know, that changed me, dude. That changed me. Like, because I saw communism here in America. Like I saw people put on your damn mask. Like, like in a way, I'm thankful. I'm thankful that it happened because it opened my eyes to the truth because I was a little bit naive as far as thinking that everybody is like me. Right. But I saw that there was probably the majority of people are opposite of me. Antithesis of me of like, like, screw you. Like I can, I can, I can do, I could do, uh, you know, by, I know what a virus, the size of a virus is versus the micro of this mask. And, you know, it was,

A lot of lessons were learned, hopefully, by everybody. I don't know. I mean, we couldn't, there was no way. I remember myself in the first week going to the store, getting groceries, coming back home. And I'm looking at everything. I'm like, so what? Like, I'm going to wash them with gloves in a, in a water. Like, how, how is this even has any saying, like, what are you guys trying to tell us to do? Then wear masks, don't wear masks, wear masks, don't wear masks. It's like you, it was so on top of the surface, so easy, especially for somebody that has learned how to, to, you know, growing back in the communism when you're told to. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Um, but it was scary, no question. I mean, it could have gone sideways for the whole human civilization. And, but I don't think we could have done anything anyway. Yeah. Definitely not by wearing masks or, or washing apples. That's, that, yeah, yeah, what's going to be is going to be. You're sitting on a plane and you're wearing a mask. You must, because you're on Lufthansa and just like none of the rest of the world wears them anymore, but you must, because you're on Lufthansa. So I do. All right, it's time to have the lunch or whatever. So now you can take it off for the lunch. It's like, what, what, what in the world are we doing? Yeah, it's silly. And then if you ask and you were shamed, right, in a way that was uncomfortable. Right. And it's actually more uncomfortable, more comfortable to just comply, go with the flow instead of stopping and, and actually asserting yourself as an individual. And, yeah, and it just, it changed me, man. But for us was very, we were lucky. We were very fortunate. And, and I have a big place. Also, I have like a 10 acres. So not much change. We were training dogs and watching the world struggling. Yeah, I got a few acres up here. I'm so thankful. I'm out of the city, man. But people were stuck in little apartments and not able to get out. And that's a big problem anyway with, with, like, like as a dog trainer working with pet dogs. There is a huge difference where those dogs are. And I had to, a few months ago, a couple of months ago, whatever, I had to go back to Bulgaria because my mom and a bunch of reasons. So I stayed for like four, almost four weeks there. And I took my dog, my young dog with me because we have nice areas to go tracking. Florida is not that, the place to, to learn tracking with the dog. It's just not fun. So I took him with me and I live in a capital, Sofia. And, you know, you do the, the things that people do when they live in a city.

You, you put the flexi, you take the dog to pee first thing in the morning. Maybe you're lucky enough to rush to make the coffee, but you got to get out to get the dog out. That's, that's a priority over anything else. So you're walking around, my dog is like, where are you going to let me run? I'm like, I'm not letting you run here. And it took him about 10 days to start to sniff and pee and mark and do the, the city dog thing. But where I was going with this is like a lot, a lot, a lot of the problems that pet dogs encounter and, and their owners are because of, of not, you know, like, like, it's a bird in a cage in a lot of ways. Even though you think that you're taking the dog around the block four times a day, there is nothing that compares to unclip that dog and just let it go. Yeah. Yeah. Letting them be at the, at the, at Liberty, right. Where they can do whatever the heck they want, sniff. And, and, you know, I've actually been to, um, some seminars where they actually teach people exactly how to do that. Right. And, and a lot of times those dogs are like later, I'm never coming back there again. You know, it's like life, like a bird in a cage. What do you do when that door opens? See ya, I'm flying free. Right. And that, that speaks to the, the relationship, but, and, and not only that, but there was also an influx of puppies that we had. We have COVID dogs. Right. And now the over, the shelters are now overflowing, unfortunately, because people either had to go back to work or these dogs started to manifest behaviors that these people didn't know how to, to manage or deal with. And then they're getting some pretty horrible advice, in my opinion, from, from some of these people that actually might even throw gasoline on the fire. And, um. So what, what is your take on, on the COVID dogs, the, the young dogs that needed the exposure and socialization? And did they really, are they paying the price right now or, or is that a thing? I think in some aspects they are, but I think that they can be rehabilitated. I think that they can, I mean, there is a formative year, right, of the dog development, of that mind. And, uh, when, when it is time for them to give as many experiences and it's like a format, formative, uh, on the computer. Like if we build that format really big, then that dog is able to accept a lot of more experiences to draw back on later on in life. Right. And so we did miss an opportunity of that, but now we have, we have time and that's what it's going to take. Unfortunately, is time through experiences that this dog learns how to behave in different

environments that might not have been introduced to them at a more palpable time for that animal where they could take it in and, and really get a firm understanding of the human world that they're existing in now. And so it's, it's through, through experience, but also knowing that particular animal too. And some dogs are going to be just like individuals like us, they're going to be much more adept to, to change. But I also see a lot of really fearful dogs, man. Like just super, super afraid of the whole world, super afraid of the shadow. More than, more than before. More than before. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And, and because they didn't have those experiences. And, and I remember telling this lady, like that dog needs to toughen up. And the look on her face was like, I told her she'd like almost like beat your dog or something like that. And she was like, why would I, you know, she was just kind of perplexed on why I would say that dog needs to toughen up. And that's where Jay Jack helped me out. And I just talked to him for a little bit and I was like, man, what do you, because he's the toughest dude I know. Even after this wreck. Right. Right. And so I said to him, I was like, man, I got this gal and I need a better way of how to position this to this lady that is having a hard time with me saying that her dog needs to toughen up a little bit. And, um, he says to me, I want you to, I want you to ask her and that's where we get to the terms, uh, like what does tough mean to you? And I said, Jay, how do I do that? And he's like, I want you to ask her, tell her that she's a director. You're a director in a movie with the scene. Is that your rocks? Yeah. Of course. You have a, you're a director in a movie and you have a scene that requires toughening. Tell me, tell me what this scene looks like as a director. And so I did just add Ivan. And she was like, this person is cowering. There's an ax murderer out in the living room and they're cowering in the closet, like shaking, trying to call nine one one. And I'm just like, oh my goodness. I was like, that is not, not what I'm saying when your dog needs to toughen up. It's more about like me handing you a Rubik's cube. That's unsolved. And I'm trying to get you to solve it. And you're just having a hard time of wrapping your mind around this next move. Like, right. And so it's like, at least that's where we start. That's yes. That's where we start. Right. But never am I going to have an ax murderer coming after you. I don't want that degree of fear happening with this relationship. That's detrimental for this relationship.

And not only that, but that's traumatizing. And that's not where I want to be whatsoever. I just, and sometimes we, I think as individuals, we bring in emotional baggage through experiences. And maybe she just had a bad experience in her life that has made her kind of go to that place. But it's not at all what I'm talking about with this dog. And so that's where it's important to get the terminology and definitions. And even an analogy to get me a better understanding of where she's at. And what she just perceived that I, where I'm at. Right. Right. And then to make this so we can get on a better place. And then we can move forward together to fix the problem that she's experiencing. Because she loves this dog. It's just that this dog is really impeding her experience in life, her quality of life. Because the dog is just afraid of its own shadow in some aspects. Oh, that's definitely a thing of, you know, the, very often the more serious, the more severe the problem. Whatever the problem is of the dog, the attachment between the family and that dog becomes stronger and stronger. To the point that sometimes they are not capable of making sound decisions anymore. Well, and it also shows the extreme nature of her perception of when I said this to her. Yeah. Right. Like she went to a very dark and extreme place. Yeah. So, and I want to chat with you too. Like we're, we, we started talking about the ASPCA and you did, you did guard dogs. I want to go back a little bit. I mean, not guard dogs, but dogs. Was it for the blind guide dogs? Guide dogs. For the blind? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And then what did that, what aspects did that teach? And what did you, what did you typically train for that? Was it labs and golden retrievers there? No, we, we actually had a lot of shepherds as well. Oh, German shepherds. Yeah. German shepherds are, you know, like I, I can never, like sometimes it's what's your favorite breed or favorite dog. And that's like a very tough question for, unfair question to me. Yeah. But yeah, we, we did have German shepherds and Labradors and golden retrievers. And they all had their son, San Rafael, the guide dogs for the blind there. It's a very wealthy organization. It's a nonprofit, but, but it's doing very well for itself. So they have their own breeding program. They've had their own breeding program since the fifties, if not earlier. Um, I don't think people realize the importance of genetics when it comes to service dogs. They come to me all the time. Like I want to make this dog a service dog.

And I'm, I could tell them right then and there that this dog is not going to make a good service dog. And I've talked to some people with canines, companions for independence. And I asked them how, what percentage does genetics play a role in the service dogs that you select? And they said 95%. Right. Yeah. Yeah. You have to, you have to put the odds in your favor in the start. Especially when you, when you are in that. And, and there is different levels of service dogs and guide dogs. It's, it's just not a joke. You, you, you gotta be able to feel comfortable that that dog's not gonna just take somebody across the street at the wrong moment. It's very different than, than somebody on a wheelchair and the dog not wanting to open the refrigerator. Like it's very different, um, situation. But yeah, shepherds were a very, like if I was to ever become visually impaired, um, German shepherd would be my type of dog just because it fits my, um, personality. A lot of blind people, people with, when, when they, when somebody is blind, they're not just, very rarely they're just blind. Like, uh, the blindness comes from, from, from, as a byproduct of, of, of number of many serious diseases. So, a lot of times you, you, you hardly can keep orientation. Uh, you, you cannot walk in a certain pace. You, like there is a lot of things that need to be considered when set pair matching, doing those things. And, um, the German shepherds for a capable person. Like one of the beauty of a, uh, uh, a good guide dog is when you tell them to go, that they go. And what I mean by that is there is a, there is a very comfortable level of tension on that harness. That is, that you're just going along with. And you feel comfortable. And every time that tension breaks, if you're, again, there are different levels of blindness. Um, but if you're, like, uh, uh, you know, depending if you really, really count on the dog. Anytime there is a break on that tension, either the dog is telling you that there is something. Either a curb, either a car, either some overhead. Or, like, some obstacle that we need to navigate around or through. Or, the dog is just taking its time and it's not doing the, what, what they're supposed to do. So, the German shepherds, typically they were very good at go. But very few blind people can have a German shepherd. And that's the reason why more and more, uh, we, we went into the golden doodles and, and, uh, Labradors and, and everything. And they were good to begin with. The whole thing with, um, that's where the whole designer breeds came from.

And I believe it was, uh, the school in Australia that first started it. And, and, and the whole idea was to combine a poodle with a golden. Because the, uh, of the nature of the coat. Like, the, the, the, the poodles, they have that hair. They're like a human hair. So, when you are allergic to dogs, poodle is the last dog that you're going to be allergic to. And, as I said, when, when you are visually impaired, there, there is a whole baggage of other things that are coming along with the blindness. So, you, uh, allergies are a big thing. Interesting. So, that's kind of how that came about. Um. It's, uh, comorbidities. Yeah. You don't know. Sometimes the blindness can be a result of diabetes. Um. Yeah. And that's interesting. I had a lot of people. I had a lot of people that, um, they, uh, quite a few people are trying to commit suicide. And they either kind of shoot themselves in a weird way that they survive, but they go blind. That was a, a good percentage of the, the students that would come. And they come and now they're like, let's go. Let's leave and let's do things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, it's amazing how from, uh, it definitely can be a life-changing thing. But, unfortunately, many lose their eyes because of that. So, yeah. Yeah. The death's door to now. I want to be alive because I, obviously there's something keeping me here. Right. Because I, I tried to do it and now it didn't work. And now I might as well make something out of this life and use any tool that I can to start to navigate this world. Um, I'm going to run to comments, man. We got them piling up here. I have a couple of questions that, um, now that we spoke about that. And I want to talk about IGP too. And, and why IGP? So this would be a good segue to that question. Uh, Jackie, uh, Pitt. And Jackie, by the way, is one of my Patreon supporters. So I have to just shout out my Patreon. If you guys like what I do, please consider supporting me financially on Patreon. Um, thank you to all my supporters. This is something that allows me to travel and, um, get to, uh, experience, uh, different aspects of the dog training world. And, uh, so thank you all and hello to all my new Patreon supporters that I've had in the last few days. I sure do appreciate every one of you. If you're interested, it's in the comments down below. And thank you, Jackie, for supporting me on there. Um, she says, thank you for doing this talk. Would Ivan speak on his thoughts on the importance of competition and dog sports? How does it change the quality of dogs and training? Hmm. So that's, and that's something I'm interested to because I don't do dog sports.

And if I do dog sports, I think I'm going to do IGP, man. Because I started looking at PSA. And, um, do you have any opinions on PSA? I, I, I am, um, for good and bad, I, I say what I think. So I'm, I'm quite opinionated and sometimes I'm not necessarily right. Um, if anybody is going to do a sport and they don't have the, the knowledge, but they just want to dive into the, the world of dog sports. Um, I think the most important thing is to see who is around you. Um, if you have a very good, see like, you know how we were talking about the analogies. Like I can give you an analogy now with martial arts and going to some school that some blue belt is teaching versus black belt. Um, but if you stick to dogs, it's not that hard to give the same example. Um, if you have somebody like me next door that does IGP to the level that I do and that has proven and teaches and so on. But you want to do ring sport, any of the ring sport or PSA. But the level of that sport in your area is below average. Then it's a big mistake in my opinion. It's a waste of time because no matter how much you like a certain sport, where are you going to go? How much are you going to learn? It will be a waste of time. Um, so how do people find out if they have a good sporting in their area? How did like somebody like me, who's a lay person that hasn't experienced it? How is there like a ranking website or is there? Yeah. Yeah. We, we can go really deep into this. I don't know. Um, I mean, it's a very. Let me, let me think how, where I want to go with this because that, that's a. It's wide open right now. You just open, you open the door to, to a labyrinth here. Yeah, I'm good at that. Um. So again, we have, we have internet. internet. So the first thing, the, the most sound way that you can do something is to go and see what clubs, like let's say you want to do French ring. You go to the, the French ring, uh, um, the national organization, which is NARA in our country. NARA? How do you say it? Yeah. North American ring association. Okay. NARA. Yeah. And then you have every region and every club in the region. And then you can see who is active in that club, how often they train. Um, but how often they train, this is something to be said about like, I'm, uh, uh, absolutely.

Uh, uh, uh, non-believer in, um, training hard and training, putting hours after hours. There, there is, there is quality of training that produces results. And there is training that you can learn from YouTube or Instagram or Tik Tok that basically gives you this obvious content. Like you can see so many dogs being lured in healing puppies, being from a world champion to, uh, somebody in the backyard. They don't look that much different, but that's not how you choose somebody that can be your coach and, and somebody that can take you places. Like you, uh, accomplishments matter and accomplishments are very, uh, tangible. Like you can go to a working dog, you can type somebody's name and you can see how many dogs they had, what their placement, if any, in different competitions. And all of a sudden the king of the village becomes just that. It's king of the village. And then there is a whole different world past that. And it's not hard to find. Um, so that, that would be my advice for, for people that want to do any, any dog sport regardless. Or another option is to do what I did. I wanted to do dog sports and I left my family and I took a pair of jeans and crossed my fingers that I'm not going to get shot or I'm going to be caught and nobody will hear from me and go to Belgium. But, um, you know, Is Andre still around? I don't know. I don't know. Um, Okay. We, we are, we haven't been in any contact, um, in, in many, many years. Um, not, not in, not in any terms with him at this point. Well, the, um, now, Rob, what you were just talking about is ringsport.org. Anybody that's interested in that, I just posted up a link to them in the comments. When you went from Bulgaria to Belgium and then you got the, you got the dog from Luke Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt. Vanderbilt. people have, like I know my pros and cons, you know, and names is one of the, like I would walk into a crowd at a competition or whatever event is, and if my wife is with me or my, somebody of my close friends, they know, so they would ahead of time be like, and that's where, that's the name, and that's where you know that person, and then everything comes together, but I may appear as that person that just kind of walks by people with this proud face and like looking down on everybody, and I hate it, but that's how my brain is. Yeah, yeah, well that shows the importance of surrounding yourself with the people that will help you because they know you, right, and it's like, even though it might come off, it's just who you are, and I promise I won't push you.

Another thing, just as a funny, like when we have the, you know, like I have my dog trainer schools, and there is a must, like you have to, for the whole time you're here, you have to wear your name tag, and when you ask a question, please tell me your name because this is a problem for me, and I want to, I want to at least at one point be able to address you with the correct name, you know? Yes, it's important. They say in rapport building exercise labs, rapport is very important to me. There's nothing as sweet sounding to somebody as their own name, right? And so if you want to, if you want to really make an impact on somebody, you want to use their name, you want to remember their name, and it's meaningful to people, but it's also good to know if that's something that is, you know, pros and cons that each one of us has as an individual. When you were, when you went to Belgium, do you remember the first thing that just blew your mind that you learned from Andre about dogs or? Yeah, I actually was, Andre helped me in a lot of ways, but not much in the actual dog training. Okay, interesting. The big thing was, yeah, yeah. Yeah. These are just stories that are way in the back in the past. Like when I went to Belgium, the, up to that point, we only would talk about Malinois. And it wouldn't be like when you get some magazine from Italy, it would be a confirmation. And you see the, you know, you don't really see what I wanted to see, the working aspect of what dogs do. And that was, that was happening in conversations. So somebody would go to a different country and had access and then, and I think at the time I had some really good storytellers. That they, they have huge influence of why I got into Malinois. Because I remember the stories today, word by word. Like there will be a competition and, and everybody, whatever. And then there is a Malinois competition. And people don't know. And everybody's like, well, let's go see that dog that everybody talks about, but nobody knows. And like a huge curiosity, novelty factor, huge. And so when I saw my first Malinois, he, they, they send them to, to do the search for the decoy. And he goes and he finds the guy and he starts barking. And he's doing this barking up here, barking between the legs, like, and I think this is the coolest thing. But they're upset. You can clearly see that training-wise things are going sideways. Okay. And on top of that, he was like a parrot. He had like this huge overbite on him. And I could care less because the dog was a monster and he was just, let's do this. Screw the rules. Move so I can bite you.

And if you don't move, I'm biting you. And I don't think, I think my heart stopped. Just I was like in O. And I was like, yeah, I knew it. Fuck. I knew that that's the dog I want. And if it was going to be with that huge overbite, I could care less. I'm getting trolled here real quick from a client here. It looks like we have, this is a guy right here, Luke Vonsten Brugge. Is that who he's got the dog from? Yeah. Well, and we have a question here. Love to hear teaching theory from Ivan. It's lucky. I've been lucky enough to train with Cody K and Mario Gomez. Is your approach the same? I'm at club and hope to catch your comments. Much respect. Yeah. This is where it can get kind of, like I don't think we train similar. Of course, in dog training you find similarities if you want to. And the more experience you have, the differences become more dramatic. Okay. And that's not to say that it's good or bad. But it's, like I don't think we train similarly. And Mario, Mario's a good friend. I mean, Cody, like I know the guys, they're very cool people. Mario, he, gosh, he worked for me when he first moved from, well, he was, he went to Hawaii and then from Hawaii he came, he stayed with me. And right at the time when I won the world championships. And he was so excited to learn. And, and he was helping with the kennel and training all sorts of dogs. And at some point he's like, dude, are you going to train? Like, I, like, are you hiding from me? Like, what's going on? And, and we just laughed because then he realized how I train. I don't, like I train when I like to train. And there is no, it's not like a, this is what we do and this is when we do and, and I have to do it for X number of sessions or whatever. I just don't look at dog training that way. I don't look at learning that way. Let me see. Now we have, what percentage of dogs make the grade in general when training starts? Does it prove the breeding lines work? Not sure I understand the question. Paraphrase for me. What is the percentage rate of dogs? Oh, I guess it's down here. I can read it. I'll put up any question that I pop up on the screen here that I'm just pulling them from the comments here. If you guys got a question, go ahead and throw them in the comments. If we can get to them, then we will. So what percentage of dogs make in the grade in general when training starts? Does it prove the breeding lines work? Yeah. So making the grade is a very, you know, like, like it depends where you're headed. Dogs and humans and everybody, we have our limits. How we raise criteria is important to reach those goals or destroy them.

But I think what the question is asking for, I am a huge proponent on genetics and inherent talent. Like there is a genius and there is an average dog. The blind dog association, I guess, when we were chatting back there, that's when he commented. Okay. Okay. So, yeah, the grade's in there. It was, I mean, we can go there. It's a, when I, before I went there, I was already very interested. So I was reading already a lot. And there was a book by Clarence Pfaffenberg. And he was the person that started the, the puppy testing. He put it kind of together. Like the, you know, the old newspaper, the umbrella, the little sound on the plate, like all this stuff. And because of that and the breeding program and that selection process and the exposure to all those things as puppies, he was claiming that from 50%, they reach a 70% success rate at the time. So I was fortunate to go to the same school where he did all that 30 years later or 20 years later, I don't know. And experienced it firsthand that it was still 50-50. For whatever reasons, the success was still 50-50. But you knew, you kind of knew which dogs are failing because of lacking understanding of the tasks and which dogs are genetically not suitable. What age do you determine whether a dog is going to make it, make the grade, or as all dogs different, and some take a little bit more time than others would? Man, yeah. This is another very tough one. Again, being at Guide Dogs, being very familiar with the Super Puppy military program, breeding dogs for since 89, I don't know how many years that is. And that's a very, that's a almost, I would say, unfair question. Like, take two geniuses in their area, humans. You have Mozart, who at five years old is writing insanely complicated music. And then you have Einstein, who had to grow up and struggle, and all of a sudden, kaboom, and nobody can understand what the fuck is going on anymore. And I think this is, you know, we, as breeders, as people that buy dogs for certain reasons, as dog trainers, we are very quick. And granted, there are times where it can be, I have wasted in my years of training time on the dog that I shouldn't.

But, you know, so there is that, you know, how long do you wait before you know that it's, you're wasting time? Or is it a late bloomer? Or is always that little happy dog in the litter that everybody, it doesn't need to be a dog person, but everybody that comes to say hello to the puppy is like, oh, I like that one. How often that one is that one? Not often enough. Normally, again, the more you know, and this is why genetics and pedigrees are important, and when I'm talking about pedigrees, depending what kind, like if we're talking malinos, now it's a little bit more, becomes more reliable. But knowing the generations behind, not as far as, oh, he's a champion, therefore my dog has it. But knowing what to look for, and it's a tough, I don't think I have a better answer than what I just told you. It's almost an art, it's like an art to it, right? There's an aspect of it that is almost esoteric. For a long time, in like the early 90s, I would, and I have the choice, I'm breeding the dogs, I am with them. I should be able to pick the best puppy for myself, and that was not happening. I had to learn what plays a role, and how it grows into something or not. It's interesting. This is a very interesting part of doing dogs. Yeah, and then the Vitosha, here, let me see, I got a comment. Well, and, I mean, I think that that just comes through experience, right? Knowledge through experience, just like we were talking about earlier, and then watching and knowing what you're looking for. We have a comment here from Derek Krause. Yeah, and sometimes they can, you know, like something that I often get disappointed about trainers is when you're in a certain sport, and you say, well, that dog doesn't, it's not meant to do that sport. But he may do well in that one. A good dog is a good dog is a good dog. Like there is no, there is no sport specific dog. If that dog is not good, that dog is not good. Then you can be masking shit and hoping that you can get to certain things, but it's not that, like what you need in a good dog is you need health, you need longevity, you need structure, you need character, and you need a few genetic things, like if in that sport matters how the gripping behaviors are and so on. And you need physical and mental endurance. Now I'm saying it like it's, now they kind of piled up as I said them, but they're all important. Well, annoying too. When I was doing the research of some of these dog sports, I like the different aspects of some of these sports and how they challenge that dog, right? And especially the ones of using that dog's nose.

In my opinion, and I might not know what I'm talking about out here, but that dog's nose is one of the biggest tools that we have. And that's where I was surprised to find out, like PSA, I don't think does like a tracking aspect of it, where that's where I'm more attracted to the IGP field. And I'll be talking to Lars as well. Oh, Lars is in here listening, and he says, Hi, Ivan. Ivan's been a great inspiration for me, especially in obedience. So shout out to Lars there. He's doing great on the tracking and IGP as well. Larry's here as well. Larry Crone. What's up, Larry? And then it says, KMPV. What's KMPV? Dogs don't work like FR dogs from foundations that we train to find continuity. Can you decipher that for me? I don't know. KMPV don't work like... That's the kind of question that we probably need to go back and forth on to clarify where we are. Put it back on. KMPV dogs don't work like FR dogs from foundations, so we train to find continuity. Continuity. There we go. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, that's a correct statement. Okay. I agree with that. I mean, every sport, depending how far you want to go in it. So there is the option. Yes. Can you get an IGP and some ring title and a PSA with the same dog? 100% without a doubt. But when you have three parts and you eliminate two, that one is really going to go somewhere. And each sport emphasizes and appreciates certain qualities, exposes certain qualities of a dog more than other sport. So if you are into a certain specific sport, you are very conscious about encouraging and promoting those traits versus something that is irrelevant in that program. Yeah. Just kind of like put the blinders on. Does it appeal to this sport? Then that's what we're working on, right? Right. All right. It looks like I'm having a bad connection here. Might be, too. And then, so what do you think about, so Bart has, or excuse me, Derek has a picture of Bart Bellin with the Napopo. How do you feel about Napopo? I just went to, and I've been learning from them as well. Right. And do you have any opinions on? Of course. Yes. And I think, I think everybody knows my opinions. I'm not sure what exactly you want me to say. Okay.

It's like if the question would be probably better if I train or I have the same idea and concepts. Yes. And they're very different. So we're dramatically different in almost every single point. Like, I don't think, you know, any examples that we can go into, you know, that are cornerstone signature of, like starting from the net popo. That's already, for me, something that I wouldn't do. Like, I would not start with negative. I would not do anything negative before or at the same time with a command. Like with the low collar stem, any of that? Yeah. Okay. Do you think that, like, it confuses a dog or is it just something that you just don't do? Yeah, I guess it does not make sense to me. Like, it just very much doesn't make sense to me. And I'm speaking to somebody that is, like, that doesn't do this type of training in the sport dog world at all. And I'm just genuinely curious. And I understand, like, trust me, just as I talk on my podcast, I pay attention. I know force free. I know what's up. It's just like somebody can say, well, we are just using different terminology, but ultimately we are on the same path. And I would disagree. It's not. It's just different, very different. Different ways of getting to the same place is, so it's not on the same path whatsoever. Okay. Well, cool, man. Are you, talk about your schools and, well, why do you choose IGP over everything else? Why are, we were talking about, about having trainers in your area. Yeah, I mean, as I said, it's not that I choose, is the rain here? Wow, we are getting a pull down. I hear it, man. In Florida, normally in this time of the year, we shouldn't, but maybe we turn, put the thing down. Maybe that will help. Maybe that will help. They should go in and out. What did you ask me that way? IGP. Yeah. Like, why do you choose IGP over any other sport? And you were saying Mondio and... Yeah, I mean, I like them. I like all of them. I don't... Like, Mondio Ring, like, just a not so well-known fact, but the first dog that went from the States to represent the States at the Mondio Ring World Championship, it was a dog that I trained and bred.

I wasn't competing, but I brought the dog to those levels. So, the ring sport has constantly been on my right shoulder. I have tried a few times to do French ring simply because it's, well, quite a few reasons. I like the oppositions. I like the fight. I like the mind game. It's like, you know, if you... Anybody that does any kind of martial arts has a very different love and passion for French ring because it's just like you're rolling on the ground doing jujitsu with somebody or sambo or whatever it is. French ring is very close to that. French ring, it takes a little bit more of a, you know, again, depending how you train and where you want to go, but it's a little bit more tasking on initially for a dog and a trainer to learn the concepts. You're not, you never should try to prepare for every possible scenario that's going to be thrown at you. What you need to teach is concepts so the dog has something to say. I've seen that. I know it's different take, but I know what to do with that. Just like if I tell you, if we're talking about birds and, you know, you immediately think of something with wings. And, but if we are in a restaurant, we're thinking chickens. If we are in the rainforest, parrots, penguins, you know, and, and so you, you don't necessarily need to, as long as you focus on teaching concepts, then, then you can be quite successful. So I have a, I've done, I went, I trained a dog, ready to go for French ring three, got his level two, and somebody from another place offered me insane amount of money. So I collected the dog, and I, I just had to sell him. And I knew that the dog is going, like with family, like just living an extremely good life. And, and, and there was a time where, you know, money, that kind of money really make difference. Then I tried with another dog. Now, I have a very, very cool female. Year and a half. And I'm training Mondioring with her. And I am super excited. And, and again, just because I'm teaching in the way I teach, not, not in, you know, I'm, I'm always interested to test my, my ideas. And I have a, now that, that's the crazy thing, because I really could take a break and, and not compete. But, I have a two and a half year old Malinois still from my breeding that I'm doing IGP with, that I'm really looking forward to showing as well.

So, time's going to be clearly a, a, a, a factor and a problem at some times. Um, especially when you train Mondioring and you train IGP. Like some simple exercises, like some simple exercises, a retrieve. In IGP, you want that dog to explode and come back with exact same speed without any suppression and show you these crazy behaviors that IGP looks for. And in Mondioring, the game is completely different. It's like, is he going to even be able to retrieve this thing? So, in a lot of times, speed in that can kill you. Because, if the dog feels like I gotta do it now, there is a different retrieve objects that are selected to fuck with exactly that with a dog. Like, even when you take healing, the one program calls for that exuberant willingness and attitude and free of suppression. A, a very upbeat, like all in with every single step. And the other one, if you do that, and you have to go through some stairs and bunch of bottles or whatever else, and asking the dog to do that, it's a disadvantage. And on top of that, you, if you are training smart, even if the dog is selected to have that natural endurance, which is critically important, you still can burn it if you are demanding speed when speed is not needed in that sport. So, there is, dog sports are a fascinating thing. It's like stability takes precedence. Yes, it's like IGP is like, well, my dog is going to sit faster than your dog. And when I tell him sit, he's going to separate and staple his butt on the ground. And he's not going to even put that tear for a moment aside. It's just going to go like this. And as I'm walking away, he's not going to even look around or clean his mouth. And in ring sport, it's really like, is he going to sit or not? When we're doing change of position and there is all sorts of shit on the field that's trying to take his mind away from you. So, they're both beautiful. Well, it's also, I mean, it sounds like there's so many nuances to this stuff, man. But I have, I mean, I just have no experience with it. Is it, is it, is it the overall, do you think that it's overall attitude of the dog? Is that, is that what shows you the dog is very well trained? Or what would you, I mean, what do you mean? Like the demeanor of the dog, is it happy to do it? Is it, is it obedient? And that's where I'm kind of getting into that stability comment. Like is, and, and how we can get speed. And would that be viewed as maybe as enthusiasm or, I don't know. I'm trying to, I'm trying to like form this question now.

Like, is it, is it something that, is it the, the, the performance attitude demeanor of the dog? Is it, is that, is that what they look for in these sports? You always, when, any sport that you do, even if it's not heavily penalized, the general expression and attitude of the dog performing next to a person, I think it's of utmost importance. And there is dogs that are made to do, and there is dogs that want to do. And there is anything in between. And, and then there is the demands of the specific program that are also put on the dog. And then on top of that, there is the knowledge of the handler of how to move forward. And, yeah, the, you know, where, where we are, we are in an interesting place. And it's very unfortunate that the Force Free are so stubborn to accept the fact that what we were doing 30 years ago, 20 years ago, 10 years ago, 5 years ago, is very different than what we do today. We are rapidly getting better and better of how to work with a dog and create that environment where the dog is like, I am here, I know what to do, and I want to do it. Nobody in IGP right now would care. I, I shouldn't say nobody. These are extreme words, of course. But, but people that understand IGP well, they would not care whatsoever if that dog performs perfect behaviors. But you sense that feeling of suppression in there. Yes. Of uneasiness. Of communism. Right now it's very easy. Anybody can teach a dog to do something. What is the emotional state you're attaching to behaviors? What is, it's just, we have grown up to a different level right now. And, as I said, it sucks that, that the force-free ideology, it's so narrow-minded and so stubborn to say, let's take all of this shit out because it's cruel to the dogs. And, and, and, and, when it's right in front of your eyes, you see some beautiful, unreal interaction between a dog and a person. Agreed. Agreed. And Christopher says, so many people suppress a dog by overtraining too soon. And they also overdo the training too. There is endless ways of humans to fuck up. For sure. That's one. Well, and I think it's like you said, the communism, we're back to where we started at, right? It's like, this is my way or the highway. And, and that's the only way to do it. We have a comment too about your school. And, do Ivan's school and all your questions will be answered. There's a lot to know just before being told, just being told how to use, how he uses the tool. Right. And I want to put, hold on, leave that, leave that. Let me read that again. Okay. Hold on one second. Let me get back there.

By the time I realized that it's on the thing. I take it off. And I'm going to put up a link to training without conflict.com where you guys can find information about Ivan's school. And how often do you do your schools, Ivan? Right now we are on average four times a year, but we, we have a limit of, of how many people per class because it's, it can get very complicated. and, and ultimately it, it's all on me because I am teaching. There is nobody else. I am teaching. And, after they come to do testing and they are done, then I have to go through every test and I have to be in the right mind because the, the, the questions are even, I, I cannot afford not to be focused. And if I have more than a certain number of, of things to go through, it becomes very, uh, unpleasant for me. Hmm. A little overwhelming. And this gameplay is a key. Gameplay is a key. If you want a dog with drive, you have to tap into that gameplay. It looks like, um, we have one more here. We're, we're, we're almost with the other. Games are, yeah, it's, it's the essence of, of my interactions with dogs. Without a doubt. Gameify, you know, gamify the world. And, and there's aspects of this that, um, that a lot of businesses, even with human behavior are very valuable to, to get that interaction and get that, that, um, not just positive outlook, but that, that bonding, that rapport that we were just talking about. Right. Right. Um, and we've been talking for almost two hours, man. So we'll be wrapping this up here pretty, pretty soon. I'm used to talking once you have me. Okay. Well, let's see here. I mean, I'm not saying just, just so you know, there is no pressure. Okay, good. Then, um, and Dave, dogs, bollocks, uh, asked thoughts on canine street league. And he's asking from the, my YouTube channel. And if you guys are watching, and if you haven't gone over to subscribe to bow, well, bill on YouTube, consider doing that. Uh, I'm trying to get to a thousand subscribers. It looks like 85% of people that watch my videos are not subscribed. So please, uh, subscribe to that channel and check it out. Do you know canine street league, Ivan? No, no. Okay. So there's your thoughts on that. He says, positive reinforcement is just a hand in that dog training. Well, and I think that the, when we go to force free and we talk about people like that, I tell people they're trying to think with their emotions and our emotions and our intellect are separate. And if you try to think with your emotions, we're not going to get very far along the path of solving, uh, problems, right? It's, it's something that you have to kind of think through. We use them in concert with each other, but doing what's right.

It doesn't always feel good. And, um, and sometimes we have to endure. And just like with those boundaries that we were talking about too, it's, it's mandatory that we have structure and, uh, in place as well. Is that a, somebody's comment or? No, that's just me talking. Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm not sure what to, like, I don't know what you have in your head when you're saying that. So I, I'm a kind of a little hesitant to, to approve or disapprove or, or, you know, um, yeah. With, with boundaries, how do you initiate boundaries with the dogs? That's probably where, what's going on in my head. Play. Okay. Okay. And, and can you give me an example? Well, like, um, and, and that's for everybody. I mean, if you guys wanna, there is still a few hours left that the videos are on discount. Um, but, but it's very well explained on my, uh, videos of a chase and catch and possession games. Um, in brief, there is, I, I separate, play in several categories. and we have play as an activity. and we have play as an, uh, objective, which becomes a game. So, like, if we have a, uh, uh, basketball, and hoops, but we're only throwing that basketball and kicking it around, and we don't know what to do with it, then, that's an activity. Now, if we have an objective to see who's gonna score more, playing basketball, by the rules of the game, now we have a game. and, and, every game, every single one, has rules. Every single game has rules. And we, humans are fortunate enough that, we are, we have a gift, that we can, we have a limitless ability to come up with new games. It's an endless thing. We can create games to infinity. When you have, game with an objective, you're following rules. When rules are broken, they're consequences. And, that's the premises of, uh, a lot of what I do, but it's not as simple to, just, like, I don't, I don't think I can, go any deeper than that. But this is how I, uh, uh, would answer your question when I say, games. Okay. Like, most people, spend time to do, sit down and stand with the food or some free shaping and, and clicking. I play with my dogs for, from, from as soon as I can until the moment that they cannot no more. I like that, man. And then you guys can get access with the training without conflict, to his videos. Now, whenever I talk to people, I'm always asking, or I'm always talking about anthropomorphication and people making these dogs their fur babies. Do you think that that is

the problem? um, um, um, oof, so depending what we are looking at, um, um, I am, um, when I train, I am not a standbyer. I'm not focusing on my dog doing behaviors. I am very actively interacting with my dog conversing as I would with a kid. Okay. Um, now, what the dog gets from that, you know, we, we know, and one of the difference between dogs and humans is that you, you cannot instruct a dog. You cannot tell them do this and do it this way and so on and so on. Um, which, when it comes to that kind of talking where, you know, you have like, well, how many times we've done this and you know better and that, that's a meaningless, uh, um, that's just you either expressing your frustration or trying to converse and instruct the dog as you would a kid. but that's, uh, that kind of interaction, uh, clearly wouldn't be, um, productive. Um, but other than that, when we, when I train and what I teach at school and workshops is, um, I, I will force you to talk to your dog. like a, like a, like in the moment, right? Right. Where the biggest thing is probably like, with a kid. Like, I, I don't care if he sits or he goes and does something and I click and market and he gets a paycheck. I want my dog to hear me. I like it. That's so cool. Or the other way around. so it's almost like, um, just getting the dog used to who you are and chatting, chatting it up and so that's interesting, man. Where it's, and you talk through stuff or you, how do you talk to him? Like, like if I was a dog, are you, are you like that? Atta boy, let's go. Let's like, uh, can you give me an example? I mean, really anything goes. Um, I make sure that the, whatever the command is salient and clear, um, but then me, me expressing myself is a very big deal. A very big deal. Let me see here. I'm going to the comments. Sure. Ivan, your best dog you ever have, did it show brilliance from early on or maturity kicked in or have it come good with your skill set? It's a hard, these are tough questions because always, um, every time I look back at any of my dogs, um, they're different, they're individuals,

and they have their strong and weak points. Um, if, if we're looking into sport, there is no, like, one, one thing about sport is that you need to understand the nature of the game. You need to know where are you investing your time and where you should not. And, um, that's a problem of, of social media right now. You can very easy just start doing shit without having an idea where it's going just because everybody's doing it. Um, but, as far as knowing, every dog, just like every person, has a home base. That's as I call it home base. It's like the character. Like in humans, there is that, uh, ocean. it's the abbreviation of the different types. and, you have to know the home base of your dog. That's your genetic makeup. And you, no matter what system you're doing, if you go against that instead of see how you can guide it and mold it in what you want, you will not be as successful you might have accomplishments but you will most certainly not be as successful if you do did that. So, I have again, like just this, before we had the competition, the little club trial here, the weekend before, we had a gathering that I do once a year for dogs from my breeding program, from young dogs to seasoned dogs that are in anywhere in competitions, and I watch them. And it's very enjoyable to see how the genetics, you know, when you know, you know how to work with them. so to give you one interesting example, because I can give you endless examples of this, with just what happened this last week, but we had a person that has a dog that's about 10 months, 11 months old, from one of my lines. I had a dog in the early 90s, I mean, late 90s and 2000s, he was a vice champion of the world, before he was three years old. he was the youngest dog of the competition, and he was vice champion by one point, the competition was in Germany, and a German won. When I saw that dog, third generation from the dog I'm talking about, and the guy having two toys, and putting toys on their armpit, and doing all this all sorts of very common, obvious training, I just had to stop him, and I took the dog, and I put the toys away, and the

dog gave me eye contact, showed me the exact attitude I'm looking for to win a world championship with, and we started healing. and he got paid, but he didn't even need to get paid because his home base is understanding and intelligent, and the fact that he's interacting with me and knowing that what he's doing is affecting me in a good way, it's extremely important to him. so we have quite a bit of interesting footage that it's going to have to get compiled and see how we are going to inject all that material into the program, into my school, because it's just so, so cool. Then he's like, how about a dumbbell? I'm like, okay, show me what you're doing. So he's showing me, again, common, everybody, what everybody mostly does. and then I see the dog wanting to do. There is nothing, like me asking him to do something, to downgrade him, where his intelligence is at the moment, and where his natural behaviors are going, and me being stubborn, not recognizing that, but doing the things that everybody else does, it's a, huge mistake. So, yeah, we did, I just let him hold the dumbbell, I sound like Susan Garrett right now, but we do have videos that it's actually, it's super, super interesting, but anyway, home base is very important. If anything. Knowing what that home base is, you know. Correct. I mean, that's where everything has to start in doctoring. It doesn't matter if it's competition or pet dogs. It's like, who are you? Like, if somebody, if you're at the ATM machine, and somebody touches you in the back, and you just turn and punch him, because that's comes, that's your instinct, and you see that it's your grandma, you cannot help when that situation happens randomly at some other time, you're still going to knock out your grandma. or you can be some very good martial artist, and somebody touches you at the dark alley, and you freeze. And you are staying frozen, knowing that you have all the tools in the world to demolish three people at the same time, but you cannot, because that's not your home base. this is amazing, dude, and people need to understand this, and this is where the proper men said for pet testing, and how do you recommend just through play, just seeing how that dog interacts with you, how to get that baseline understood of that particular individual dog, or that character of that dog? Yeah, again, like, you know what is interesting, it's like people that, like, my students, when they come to school, some of the videos that I have are mandatory to watch, but, as we get to certain modules, they're, again,

mandatory to watch, because it's almost like you're getting good at some PlayStation game, but all of a sudden, you crack a code, and you enter a new level of that game that you did not expect that it's there. So, what I'm saying is, you know how in the, you and I are old enough to know the Matrix movies, and when Neo was like, I just learned Kung Fu, because he got the thing, the cable in his neck, right? I wish it can be like that, but it's not. It does, this is one of the problems today, social media, I think, kind of forces you, and everybody, everybody wants to be on a different level, which is great, but there is a consumers, there is the, the, like, if you look at it as a pyramid, there is, on the lowest level, you have the consumer type, the type that goes on Instagram or TikTok and just scrolls and swipes, and it doesn't matter what comes on the feed, you're just clearly just wasting your time. yes, you're getting dog videos because the algorithm feeds you, but you're just watching whatever comes to your feed. There is a level above that, and you get to become, you're still a consumer, but you get to kind of pick and choose a little bit, so I want to see more of that instead of that. And then there is another level where, what I would call, obvious content. And obvious content is basically, there is no so, like, if you have spent two weeks on any of the social media, you have seen that at least hundred times by different people of different levels of skills and accomplishment, but you have seen that. This is what I would call obvious content. Now, people like this, they spend a lot of time consuming, so they kind of can become a curator. They can start to be like, actually, I'm going to spend all these hours, but I'm going to share on my social media, what I like. And then there is a different level to where it's like, okay, I'm going to share what I like, but I'm going to give my take on it. A level above that, you start to actually think that you're, you know that you can do it better, or that they're, now you're critiquing, and you're going way off your base, simply because you've watched enough and you think that you know. There is plenty of these people on YouTube. They're very easy to be separated. Then you have a level where you can have an obvious content, but you have, you're providing non-obvious approach, not obvious solution, not obvious take you have. And now, the people that are not

the consumer level, but that have a little bit more grown up, now you're getting my attention because there is something of substance, something different that you just got my attention with. the level again before the obvious content people, it's super easy, and I don't want to turn this into big thing, but I don't even know how I got here, so I better finish it. But you're making sense. but you can have, like, if anybody wants to become big on social media, it's super easy. You need obvious content. It's like, you see something on social, you share it on your media, or you make a video that is exactly the same, and say, well, I don't know, corrections have its place in training, and everybody's, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, and now you've got a bunch of people liking your content. Positive reinforcement, and yeah, this is what obvious content means. It's like, it's agreeable or disagreeable, and you can manipulate and get the likes and subscription. solution. But once you pass that, which is not hard if you spend time and you want to, it's not hard, and hopefully that, what I'm just telling you, those people that are listening can help them, then you're looking for solutions that are not obvious to obvious things. Now, we enter an interesting part because there is also a lot of non-obvious solutions, but they lead to nowhere, or if they lead to Rome, that road is very bumpy and very long, so it's very easy to get lost in there. And, of course, there is a level even above that to where we are talking about non-obvious content along with non-obvious solutions. and for to even appreciate that because that, as you're swiping, you're like, okay, this is bullshit, because it's not what you hear every minute of the day on your social media. but you can get lost in those because it's like, okay, well, that non-obvious content and that non-obvious solution, how long has been around? Okay, so many months or so many years. Okay, what is the product? What is the proof that is actually is legit? and compared to what? And then you have the a level that kind of stands alone, that's kind of, you become a creator. You're in your own league. And I like to think, and this is not to sound in any way looking down on anybody, but I've done this for many years and I have accomplished a lot on the highest possible levels. Today, what happens is these people that have the, you create something, it's almost like

back in the day, whatever, Copernicus, like, well, the sun doesn't go around the earth, and everybody's like, you're nuts, man, shut up, shut the fuck up. They put him to death for it. And I don't know, but they burned the other guy, whatever, with the bee, right. So it took some time for this to become, to blind you, and you cannot reverse it no more, because it is the fact. it takes a much longer time, but then it makes sense when you start teaching and giving it back. And what I see today is a lot of obvious content trainers teaching obvious content and getting likes and becoming famous on social media. And when you are past a certain level, it's just so easy to see. Anyway, hopefully this helps some people to navigate in the confusion we are living in right now. You know, there was a question earlier, like, how do you pick which sport or who teaches you or whatever, you know, like, you know, I got a little too excited on this. Cheers. I don't even know if you know how much you've been blowing my mind, man, especially with the ocean. You know that? With the baseline? Right. And mislabeling, because I've never heard of that, dude. This is the answer. This is typically the answer. This is openness, conscientious, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism, right? That's what the ocean stands for. Right. And these five traits represent broad domains in human behavior and count for differences in both personality and decision making, right? And this is something that is baked in. Correct. Right? This isn't something that's taught. This isn't something that they've picked up. This is something that they're born with. In fact, you can see this in babies, right? Correct. You see it when the time is right to see it, right? Right, exactly. At certain points in your life, there is that maturity or that moment in time when that's what I do. I don't know why. I didn't mean to. You know, when you scare my wife, she's going to deck you. When you scare me, I flail my arms and start laughing. Right. Right? And you have to appreciate either, both. You know, and again, this is a skill that in my school, it's a must to really master because you will write the wrong prescription. You will just fail. Well, you will mislabel the baseline of the animal that you're working with. And then right here, Erno says, I misread my dog's home base when he was younger. That was a tough lesson. Right? And so you're going to put these dogs in situations or try to, he's lighting a cigar too, just so you know. And you're going to, you know, learn a tough lesson and it's going to be heartbreaking because you've been mislabeling your dog's characteristics this whole time and approaching a task that you're wanting them to accomplish in sometimes a totally backwards way. It's like you were talking about with the barn ball under the armpit or

the fetching the dumbbell. Right? And this is why it's like I have to just kind of meditate on this stuff because I've never even heard of that ocean aspect and why if we're mammals and this is present within us and it's going to be present within these dogs too. It's just something that's baked into the life experience that we have. Yeah. And endless examples of this, daily examples of dogs doing shit. You know, and again, like, and I wouldn't say, I used to say young trainers really kind of, and it's not young trainers, it's just trainers. It can be a very seasoned trainer. It can be a trainer again that is in that level of obvious content and it's like, okay, that's what I know, that's what everybody does and therefore, it's going to work and if it's not working, we're going to go harder and we're going to do more and if we need to and then go to extreme and simply lacking the knowledge to recognize some basic genetics predispositions and as you said, what is baked in your DNA. Yeah. What did God give you? Right. Regardless, you know, this is your experience in life. Imagine having, again, like, hopefully I didn't give too many human analogies, but I can, I'll give you a human and I'll give you a dog one, but I mean, if you try to force me to become an astrophysic and let's say my parents were those parents that were, you know, good and I got the mathematics lessons and private and everything, it ain't happening. It's just not going to happen. If anything will happen, my confidence will crash, my insecurities will just go off the roof, and that's a recipe for absolute disaster. But if they recognize what I can be good at, at least use it as a motivation towards something else, at least that, which is also questionable. So, you have a dog, it's like, okay, well, no, we will fix the grip because I am the master of making good grips and making the dog push or pull or whatever or, oh, he's not coming fast on the recall. Well, have you done that? Have you done that? Yeah. It's like, dude, like, please respect what the home base is. I'm a big fan of etymology, of looking at the meaning of words, right? And when we look at respect, it means re is to do again and to look. Spec spectare from the glasses, spectacles, right? So take another look is to respect and so respect the relationship, take another look at it. God. And I mean, that's the first time I'm ever hearing about this, man. Good. I mean, I'm blown away, actually. Like, this whole talk is people don't realize that I don't do this for the clicks. I don't do this for the views. I do it because I learn. And I'm definitely taking that pearl of wisdom away from here. It's just that other people, if they can gain benefit, and at the end of the day, we're all in this for the dogs, if it can help improve the life of a

dog around the world, then I'm all for it, man. And you guys, let me know where you are in the world, too. There are people all over the world that watch this. And so how would you, what are some ways of learning your dog's home base? Is this stuff that you teach in your school? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Again, it's within the core. Like, there are certain things that are the core of my course, and anybody can look at my curriculum and my modules, and everybody that is a little bit into dogs will read the titles and be like, I know that, I know that, and I know that, and I know that. And I promise you that you don't. it's a, I just did a presentation for a police in Minnesota, the USPCA, and I'm doing another one for special forces in Fort Collins, like in two weeks or something. And they're like, talk about whatever you want. And there is, like my course is very progressive, like every module is placed in a certain place because I cannot see it anywhere else. You know, just like with dogs, when you are training, you have to know how to raise the criteria or lower it. and if you raise it too high, it fires back. If you keep it low, boredom comes. But when you, what I end up typically teaching and kind of giving away for organizations like this, where I feel like I can help you with something. one of my favorite things to do is to teach them the importance of creating the learning environment. And that, for many of you, can ring a bell to some level. But when you break it down to what is important, a lot of the things that are important to me are not important to most. It doesn't mean that you're better or worse than anybody. It just means that that's who you are. Right? But to find that out too, and some people don't even know what's important to them. Yeah. Because they could benefit from knowing this as well. And, you know, do you have an acronym for, like, the ocean for the people? Do you have an acronym for the dogs? No. I don't have it like that. But we do break it down. I should. I guess I could. I do have some terminology. But, yeah. I mean, there would be agreeableness. I could see all these in the dogs. Here, let's look at the acronym for the five personality traits. Openness, absolutely. Conscientious, absolutely. extroversion, agreeableness, and eroticism. I could see all five of those presence in the dog. There is one other way that it was more kind of popular in where I was growing up. And that was the types like the choleric and sanguine and so on. But this is all, like, you cannot neglect this. this is

just as you can play with your dog and you can do some crazy stuff with your dog. But I can take your dog for one minute and I can twitch something in that dog that's going to say, dude, I'm mesmerized and I'm all in and I don't know why. And this is the beauty of dog training to know how to master this kind of stuff, you know. But it's tapping into genetics, it's tapping into, yeah, I mean, everybody that's listening, you all have a favorite when you were at school. You had a class that you didn't like to go to, because of a bunch of reasons, including the teacher, including how he presented things to you, and not necessarily because you were not good at the subject, but there are factors that are very important and there were classes that you were very eager to go in. And that's where it should start. I hated English, man. I love math. I hated most of the things. I was a horrible kid. I would skip school any day to just run around with the stray dogs in Sofia any day because nobody really was like, why do I need to know what we're doing right now? Like, why? Why? What's the purpose here? And then eventually, and this is another thing about learning that is so cool, especially today, like before, you will learn things just because, just because this is the subject of the program of that year of your school. school. So you learn things just because. Now, something that is so underappreciated is that you learn what you want to learn right now. Like, whatever that is, you can just go in and start learning about that thing because you want to learn about it. And there is a way how to tap into those things with the dogs as well. Well, and just like, if I would have sat here and tried to talk to somebody for three hours, when I was a kid, forget about it. So I think that some aspects of this were just like you were saying about Mozart versus Einstein, right? Now we're growing into this aspect of like, I could sit here in just a quiet room and just sit here and chat with you and get really deep into a subject as we start to grow certain aspects of our baseline or our ocean kind of change based on the way that our mind works, right? But I still, even though I can sit here and chat all I can, I still love, let me see if I can pull this one up. I still love, and this is what I saw in Costa Rica, man, check this out. I love just sitting and watching dogs, watching dogs just play, man. and this was me watching these street dogs out there just kind of take off and just doing their own thing and they've got a little coconut husk and they

start playing and nobody owns these dogs, at least nobody at this beach, right? Just watching what they do and watching how, look at the enthusiasm, look at the tail, look at that intensity, right? And I actually sent this to myself so I could put this up on while we were chatting because this is how you began and I think this is how a lot of us begin with just watching these dogs and just having a fascination of what makes them do what they do. Yeah, yeah, very true, very true. You know, so, awesome, man. Well, let's go back to the comments here really quick and then I'll let you know that the cigar is now getting short, so, I know my dog so well, I take what I've learned to change to fit my dog, I love figuring out to change things to fit my dog, right? Right? I know my dog so well, I take what I've learned to change it to fit my dog. Good. I love figuring, good, yep. Yeah, 100%. I'm still learning my dog's home base, I'm quite new to the working dog world, I think that maybe you might be a good candidate for Ivan's school here. Your accomplishments speak volumes, I also so appreciate your thoughtful response to every question. I do too, dude. I don't know what to expect with talking to you. I met you once when we were down in IACP conference down in Florida, I just shook your hand in passing. down in the Well, as much as I think I cannot pass and walk by you, next time we meet and it seems like I'm walking by you, you definitely bump into me because, yeah, yeah. You were great, man, and not only that, but you were talking about the force free back then too, a few years ago, way before COVID even, right? So this is something that you've been passionate about for a while. Very much, yeah. Yeah, and Christopher says, the art of gameplay is so natural for all humans and animals, is the game changer of building a strong foundation from the start. Yes, so, so, to Christopher's point, mammals, at least we know more about mammals, who knows, like I've been watching a lot of octopus stuff and it's just mind-blowing, but mammals, any mammal, in the water, out on the ground, there, we are all very playful, like we are very playful. Let's just keep away, these guys are playing here, keep away. And with some animals, the playfulness goes away as they are growing up. Humans and dogs remain playful, until the end. And there is something that you need to appreciate about that. Well, I often tell people, we have to teach the dog how to retrieve, but the keep away, the game keep away, is something that naturally they know, right? any game, again, like I said, like we humans, we can come up with hundreds of thousands of infinite numbers of games. Like, I challenge any one of you to start thinking about a game, like, okay, well, I'm going to do the phone, and I'm going to throw it twice, and I'm going to do that, and then I'm

going to try to do that, but clap, treat, and you will keep going, and you will have no end, like you will keep going. as long as you have rules, it is a game, and where was I going with, what did you just say? I get excited sometimes. What about, I don't, I'm not sure. Oh, about the, well, we were talking about playing games as older and young. Right, right, right, and then you say, oh, fetch, versus keep away. We have to teach the dog fetch, but we don't, like if I grab something, put it behind me and push that dog away, the dog's like, oh, it's on, dude, I'm going to get that. Right, and trainers and pet owners, and rightfully so, will get upset if the dog is not retrieving, but is playing keep away. But, if you have a keep away game that the dog wants to do, and you also have a retrieve game, and you also have whatever other games you want to come up with, but they are very strictly with a very clear objective. Only gets interesting, and the only difference for me between games and just random play as an activity, is that we have objectives and we have rules. And as long as we have objective, we try to get better. But anyway, anybody that seems like this is interesting to you people, there is still discount, go buy them. This is what I do. Like, I don't, I, I, you know. Is it until after Monday, Cyber Monday? No, I don't know. I'll put a comment. I'll put a comment. Okay, cool. And you can comment too and use this. Understand creating the right learning environment, one of the biggest game changers. There you go, game changing at the TWC. Changing the game of dog training here by gamifying it in a lot of ways. I love the possession games and chase and catch videos. A little testimonial. Great podcast, you guys. Work versus play retrieve. I like that too. All right, man. Well, is there anything else that we left out, Ivan? Do you think? No, I think at least for your audience, I think you got a taste of who I am, what I do, and where I am navigating through all of it. That was kind of my goal. I was a little anxious coming into the podcast here because I just, I don't know. I think it was the comment about us disagreeing about our training. For sure. For sure. But again, like as I said, you asked me about Nepopo, I answered you. like I don't think there is a, I mean, you can ask me a specific question, I'll answer a specific question, but I, yeah, it's a difficult position sometimes where some trainers are at, including myself, like, that, you know, the pendulum of the extremes, like, oh, I'm good and you're good, therefore, we are all doing the right thing, or, I don't subscribe to that, I don't,

I think this is a bullshit, and I'm not referring to anybody, just to be clear. Right. And the other way. You're referring to just because of the association, that means that we're good, it's more about, prove it. Right. But, yeah, yeah, like you, again, like if you are somebody that produces obvious content on YouTube, I watch you, but I watch you as I'm having dinner or having a joint, and it's entertainment for me. it's interesting time we're living in, as I said. Yeah, well, do you have best advice for new business owners and trainers to keep motivation and thrive? And that would be the last question that we take, you guys. How long should the answer be on that? I mean, I think that it's also important to stay in your lane as far as like know what dogs that you are training, know your skill set, and like you said, know the people that you want to bring under your roof as far as your mentors and how and when to learn from them. Yeah. Like, again, going back to what I was saying, the consumer, the obvious content, the obvious content, no obvious solution and creation and so on. Like, like, see where you are. of course, even the best rock bands or whatever, you know, they had to play covers at one point in their time. That's just what you do, right? But then recognize who you are. And you could be that curator that is the super consumer that's saying, guys, don't waste your time. That's something you should pay attention to. There's so many non-dog training podcasts that are exactly that, that are extremely popular because they do you a great favor of you not wasting time because now you can trust that person. But again, this is a dangerous, slippery slope because if you start following somebody that you should not, you're going in a rabbit hole that you don't know how to even get out of for a long time. see who you are, see who your home base is and it doesn't, you know, like you can change to extend that you don't fool yourself. Like there is, again, there is a genetic component. there is a, it's in your and mine DNA and if I know I'm not good at music, I know I cannot paint, can I do it by numbers? Fuck yeah. Can I spend thousands of hours painting by numbers and become really good at it? Yes, but can I be Picasso? Hold on. So, you know, like if you're honest with yourself, you, you, I, I believe that everybody recognizes one, maybe it's not true who they are, but maybe it's not true.

Some people live in an illusion and die in an illusion. I don't know. Yeah, the soul knows, I know that, you know, and that's where like even with the people, I mean, sometimes people that are living an illusion, they can't live life anymore. And, you know, it's something that they just kind of keep on trying to convince themselves instead of, you know, getting out and really seeing what motivates them. And one way to find this out, and thank you very much. Somebody just gave me five bucks on YouTube there. Thank you. You guys can always send me tips if you want on YouTube or join my Patreon. one way to find out. You have to have high goals, you have to dream, and at the same time, you have to do a favor to yourself. Like I just said, I can only paint by numbers. and it's okay. Like when we know that, it's totally okay. It's who you are. Right. It's not a bad thing. It's really not a bad thing. Because that will allow you to search for where is your talent. Now, I, Jesus, I don't want to go into the talent code thing, but it's definitely something I don't subscribe to because of everything that I just kept saying. You know, like, what's his name, Daniel Cole, like he presents that idea that everything can be developed through deep practice, motivation, and effective coaching. And then you take Mozart and he just shits on that. Because he's five years old. There is no deep practice. He just started. Deep practice, like there is a difference between being really talented at something, in my opinion, being a genius or having the innate gift, master a skill to a certain level. But that doesn't make you that creator of whatever the subject is. Again, take Einstein or, you know, like there is a genetic factor. It just cannot be downplayed. There is just absolutely no way. It's a good book. Well, I would argue that it's not even a good book because it forces people to believe that you can be all you can be. And that's a bad recipe. you should not think about that. You should think, what's the home base? And there you can go. But if you think that, you know, your parents are going to take you to tennis lessons five times a week from five years old, by the time you're 16 or 15, when you have the chance to say enough is enough, you're done with it. the limitation of practice, like the whole concept of deep practice, is a universal method of developing talent. It overlooks the fact that not skills or disciplines can be mastered through practice alone. It just cannot be. So some people just

don't have coordination. Right. And it puts you, and ultimately I believe that it puts you kind of in a super uncomfortable position where your confidence crumbles and you, instead of growing, you actually want to hide. need. Wow. That's my take. And then you have the, like, diverse learning styles. You know, as I said, like, I gave you the example with Mario working for me and me winning a world championship and him thinking that I am going at nighttime hiding to train my dog because he's not seeing me training enough. like, it's, any time you propose a one size fits all, just as the force free community does, I see flow after flow after flow. And you have the neurological differences. You have the neurological aspect of how the skill of acquisition of new stuff. Right? Do you remember that movie Amadeus back in 84? Yeah, I have it. Yeah, you know, it reminds me of that, man, like, and even praying and having a good life is like, that's where this guy, Antonio, I can't remember the character that he played, Antonio Solari or whatever, he was this devout godly man and he could not understand how Mozart was born with this talent and is out there with all these women and living this life of debauchery, right? And he had, but he also had the beautiful skill to appreciate the genius, which the common people, they're like, yeah, this is cool, but he understood exactly how genius Mozart was. Right? because he tried to achieve that and he realized, hey, look, there's something else present here that is underlying this guy's talent. It's a natural talent and it's influenced by a blend of different innate factors in environmental conditions, personal experiences. Yeah. Anyway. And you can pray as hard as you want. it's not like doing practice, a skill. It will make you better. There's no question. I'm not questioning that. But the promise of the book to me is a false promise. And I put a link to the book that we're talking about, Daniel, Daniel Coyle, The Talent Code. And that just also happens to be a cornerstone of the preliminary material that you use for the Napopo school. It's a very popular book, not for Napopo school. It's just a very popular book because, again, at some point, we decided that you can be anything you want to be. in society. If you just want it bad enough, and you work hard enough. And then there is the finger. You're not doing enough. You should be. And many kids, I feel, are broken because of that narrative. Like many kids.

And many dogs. Like, no, I'm going to, I will be IGP three. It's like he doesn't want to. Yeah. What do you, do you have, on the flip side, Ivan, do you have a book or something that you recommend? Like, that kind of illustrates? I have a lot of mandatory books, but something that goes along with what we are just talking, would be, I have all my books, I don't know if I can use them, but I have a huge, I love reading. So my, my, again, that comes within what we are talking. Again, like I have a insanely crazy thing, like, I mean, people watch TV, I, I do science, so, because I like it, because at school I didn't care about it whatsoever, I was gonna, I don't know how I made it true, I graduated somehow, it's a miracle, pure miracle, but, so, probably like a counter book to that would be, the inner game of tennis, and I cannot think of who the, Inward skiing, too, inner tennis, inner game of tennis, tennis, the inner game of tennis, and I know, highly recommend it, but, but what the book is about is, you, you really have to, you cannot go so methodically, like, let's take an example of tennis, if you, if I'm gonna teach you how to do a backhand, or whatever the, the move is, and I tell you the degree and the hand and the elbow and, and, and all that in, in a very dry way, when you try to do it, you're putting so much from your conscious that your brain and your muscle and your body disconnect, and they, they don't work in sync no more, So, the whole book talks about the, there is two people in here, and the one, you need to kind of learn how to push it away, and allow the subconscious sometimes do, and acknowledge. Anyway, it's a, it's a amazing book, highly, highly recommend that. Awesome. They have, I was wondering if this is the same one, inward game of skiing, too. Well, then they, then they, of course, it's a money machine, so, so, of course, there is inner game of everything, but the, the original book, and the original idea is, is the first book that is the inner game of tennis, and it's a beautiful, I mean, it's a beautiful book. Wow, man. That's fantastic. Well, Ivan, looks like, look at that little nub, man. When we first started, that thing was, I know, your arm there. So, I put up a link to Ivan's website there, and we have David, do you know David here? Don't do this to me. We got Jorge, we got, it could be somebody from my class, and I would feel horrible, but the good thing is they know that I am not good at it, so they forgive me. David does scent logics, so he does scent odor, odor discrimination, and makes the odor himself. Yeah, I know of the company very well.

They've been for a while doing this. I have this book here that I always recommend as well, The Biological Boundaries of Learning, Seligman, this one is back in I think copyright 1950s. It's a pretty arduous book. Yeah, he's a very interesting character of how he did, like, in this book, I mean, all the studies, all the research, everything that he did, and then he just flipped 180 and kind of took the Skinnerian behaviorism, the radical behaviorism, and he became a big proponent on punishment doesn't work and has all this huge side, and so that. Yeah, yeah, that one's an interesting one, and it's also, I just have a stack of books laying right here on the side of my, and that was on the top here, but. Books are so important. They're very, there is a, there is a, there is a way to navigate through the whole madness of how to read books, and typically you have to start with something that is comprehensible and that will get you at the door. but at some point it will get complicated, but that's the cool thing about books, because you can stay with it, and stay on that chapter, or stay on that paragraph, as long as you want to, and you need to, but when you get it, you have something that most people don't. The understanding, and also where it came from too, right? And then I look at it as tools, like I have all these books all around me, and I read them, and I'll access different things, and then I'll come back to them as well, and there's just so many different, there's just so much valuable information contained within, and not only that, but it's a snapshot of that current time, and so we can look back and look forward to how we got to where we are. I'm going to give something away that it's no big deal, but I just did a podcast a few days ago with Louis Donald, and Louis Donald is an Australian that has a very, very good ... Ivan's been drinking this whole time, Larry, so I don't know why you're such a lightweight, but go ahead. so he, like the book, I don't know in pounds, but it's like four kilos of a book, it's called The Definitive German Shepherd Book, and we did a podcast talking about German shepherds, but when you talk about German shepherds, you realize that you're talking about dogs. He spent four years writing that book. It's a book that is going to end up on my mandatory list for the school, but talking about books, I just had to mention it as another, it's an expensive book. It's, I don't know how much it was, and I know I could get it for free. Louis Donald, the book is called Definitive German Shepherd, or something like that. you can find them, but in a few days we have the podcast out too, so books are like, there is something about books, that when you learn how to step out

from that, you know, and you just sit down and open something of interest, and you understand that, and if you don't, then you go here and you find what you need so you can understand it, but then you grow, and then you start giving some, perhaps, non-obvious solutions to obvious situations in dog training. the highest level there, okay, here we go, we got lewisdonald.com here, I'm going to make sure to post up this link as well if I can, like 300 bucks, okay, dang. I know, I know, and I could have, I could have gotten, I mean, he autographed the book and everything and he's like, I'll send it to you, I'm like, dude, I'm paying for your work, like, there's, like, absolutely no question that I'm paying you the money for you spending four years of doing this, like, like, that's another thing that we, in our industry, we don't respect and appreciate and that's the, your obvious content kind of little crowd, it's like, okay, well, yeah, I see that and all of a sudden I come up with that and it's like, okay, you can go there but that's where you stay. Yeah, it's worth every penny of it and there's no reason why somebody shouldn't be fairly compensated for the hard work that they do. It's important because then it makes them do another one. Well, it also, it shows you as a professional as well. If you're always in this, I'm speaking to the TikTok crowd, the younger people out there, if you don't have the time and the money, then find a way to get it because everything out here takes time and money and you're going to value it that much more and if you're giving away shit for free, a lot of times that's exactly what it's worth too. Right. Nothing. Right. Obvious content. Scroll and swipe. Like. There you go. Yeah, do it for the likes. Cool, man. Well, I'm going to hear, how do I copy this? No, I don't want to delete that. We can send it back. Yeah, I'll copy down below later on. But, dude, Ivan, I can't thank you enough, man. This has been a great time and pleasure. I think we had a good conversation. Good cigar on my end. I don't know what you were drinking. Hopefully something. I was drinking vitamin B12 drink and coffee. I had that in the morning. I know. That's what I have. I'm not much of a drinker and I just quit smoking weed, too. I'm just a boring guy. I don't know. I just kind of like this aspect. I was smoking weed for like 30 years, man. I've stopped in April and now I'm liking who I am. I've not quit. Who knows? I started much late, like very recent. But, and I don't, like when it comes to weed, it's again, it's my workaholic. Like there is a time where I know that I need to shut the lights off and I can. I'm like, I gotta check that study. I gotta think, oh, I'm like just about to get my dog and go out and train or like, and there is that nightclub that does it for me right now and I'm very happy. I have a question. Why did you stop Bill? Because I woke up in

the middle of the night and I smoked weed to go back to sleep and I was like, oh, this is not good. Like this is, this is becoming too much of a, you know, so I was like, you know what, I'm gonna stop this stuff. and I watched, just like what you're saying, Andrew Huberman, you ever watched that guy? Of course. Yeah, and he had this sleep hack which is magnesium, threonate, apigenin, L3, Ltheanine, and then of course melatonin and then I decided to take this little cocktail, it's like a sleep hack that he called and so, and that put me right to sleep and so I realized, hey, look, man, I'm gonna lay out the weed, I actually went, I went down to a place that I didn't want to go with it and I'm gonna see, I'm gonna give it a year of being off of it, see how I feel, but I, and basically I had a problem. Very cool. No, no, that's the cool thing when you are capable of recognizing and changing, this is, there is nothing cooler than that, but Huberman and all those guys, man, I mean, they, they, give so much to humanity right now. I mean, as much as I hate it, yeah, I do take cold showers. I do, I do get up and, and I do get up and try not to look at my phone right away and see if I can see sunlight and, you know, there's things that neurologists make difference, you know. Cold plunges, you're doing cold plunges? Yeah. Yeah, I was doing cold plunges and I'm making my own little cold plunge out of a chest freezer and, you know, it's just something about the ability to be uncomfortable and, right. We don't know everything but we know a lot now that we can, we can change who we are in a, in a good way if we do certain things like we really, there is no excuses. Hey, they're requesting Ivan and Andrew so that, I hear that he, that would be a great podcast, man. No, no, no, no, I'm way out of that league. I would be like, please talk to me. Me too. I'd be like, what else should I know? I can talk dogs. Stay there, man, and I will say goodbye to you in the studio, but we'll say goodbye to everybody. Thank you. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Thank you.