반려견 훈련에서 즐거움보다 중요한 목적: 플로리안 슈나이더 & 니노 드로와에르 (파트 1)

But in the first instance, this series of interviews is really to get to know the people. So, I don't know if you have had the chance yet to listen to one or another of our episodes so far. I have not, unfortunately. I have not, unfortunately. I try to, I multitask, though. I try, you know, seriously. People ask me, what's on your headphones the whole time? And most of the time I'm listening to, you know, podcasts or, you know, sometimes music. But lately, it used to be always music, but now it's usually work related. So, I can do two things at the same time. So, how good is that? That's the accent. What song is, you know, what playlist? Sorry, guys. It's so boring. Sometimes it's about how to operate a camera, how to operate this mic, you know, software and all those kind of things. It takes a lot of time to assess it. And, yeah, if I can do two things at a time, it helps because the days are too short. But I guess that's a good thing. For many people, the day is too long. I've been at the police for 18 years actively. And I remember there were a lot of days that were very long. So, we were looking at our watch the whole time, even though we were living the dream. Look, you can work with a dog, a dog you trained yourself. And, you know, it's a dream job, right? Because you can get to work with animals. And I loved it. But at days, the time went by very slow. You know, everybody that has done night shifts knows what it is, how to live a slow night. Nothing happens. You get very tired and nothing happens. And you get more tired. And, yeah, that's a long day. And that's just at some point, you have to ask yourself, why am I doing this? And then there's always only one answer that comes to that question is, why are you up at night when nobody's up? Nothing's happening because, you know, you have a job. But why do this job? Because you're getting paid to be there at that time. Because, you know, I always have better things to do than just wait for time to disappear. And I think that's the great thing about running your own business or your own company or, you know, your own mission is, well, now everything you do has a purpose. There's no waste of time. And besides the time, you decide to waste yourself. But nobody can tell you to waste time and stay put or wait, you know, or hit the clock and then you can leave, whatever. So I think that is one of the greatest things for people that, you know, are entrepreneurs or, you know, self-employed is they get to choose what their priorities are. And I think that's a great thing. Also for docs, I train my own docs at no clubs anymore. And it's the same thing.

When you go to a club, they expect you to train and do what the sequence tells you to do, what the program wants you to do. And I remember going to one of my first clubs, the NVBK, which is phenomenal sport. I love it. And I wanted to bring my police dog. And they said, you can't. And I said, what do you mean I can't? I mean, because the dog's legit. He can bite. He can do all the stuff. They said, no, you know, no mixing disciplines here. It's either this or nothing. So you're going to get a sports dog or it's not going to work out. So I was very surprised with that. So they only want you to do those things with one dog only and don't like mix things up. Don't like do too much. And it's this in the box thinking that surprised me that like those limitations they put on you as a handler for sure, because they just tell you can only do one thing, but also towards the dog. So very surprising because I proved them wrong. As in I did compete with the dog. I did went to the finales. They did become a police dog. And it was also what people like to call my circus dog when I do all the moves on the Internet. But seriously, that stuff to me was just fun. But, you know, in social media or whatever you post on the Internet, there's something that people have a preference. I can post bite work all day. They're not going to like it all the time. But when you post obedience and the obedience looks fast and flashy and all that kind of stuff, they want more. So I started posting more of that flashy stuff. And to me, it was just an extra because this dog had other purposes than be flashy on the Internet. But that's what people see. I know a lot of people laughed at the dog sometimes like, yeah, circus, circus. But the dog had moist deployments and the history of the department. That's not so funny anymore, if you think about it. Right. Because it was serious work. And, you know, he did go to the finales. I, you know, I could have won. You know, it's always, you know, little things that you lose. I have the whole the whole trial on my tape. So when I looked at it again, I was like, I was I was pretty close to winning the championship. If it wasn't for the jump, he fell off something like stupid things. But I mean, overall, the performance was one of the best performances I've done with that dog. And he was doing the police work as well. So, you know, dogs can do so many things. Those limitations they put on you. And I'm happy I never listened to anyone. I've said, listen, listen, do this, do that. But I also wasn't like a troublemaker. I would, you know, respect them and just not and say, OK, yeah, I'll try it.

I'll do it. You know, when I went home and of course, then I think the real training starts when you go home. It's like now you can be yourself. Now you can do whatever you want. Now you can, you know, live your imagination. Try stuff, experience, do experience. You know, that kind of stuff is what I like. Because backyard, nobody controls me. But that's, I mean, that's a journey a lot of people go through. They have a dog. They have ambitions. And it's other people leading their minds. They tell you what to do from day one with a puppy. Do this. No, don't do that. Oh, you're going to do bite work and obedience. No, no, no, no, no. Only do bite work. Then the dog becomes that kind of stuff, you see. So they already embed a certain way of thinking, traditional way of thinking. Especially the older the sport, the more traditional the thinking is, of course. And I didn't like it. It's something like when I quit the club life after more than 10 years, it was, I felt free. Seriously. At first I thought I'm going to miss it because, of course, you know, you spent so much time. But I didn't at all. It was like, that was actually the best decision I ever made. Not because of the people not wanting to help you. Because I have to tell you, they always want to help. You know, either like love them or hate them. If you ask them something, they'll help you. Which is very, you know, it's very cool. Because these people and I get paid to help you. And they still help you. So they always have good intentions. But the whole atmosphere around the club, other people telling what to do. And, you know, the way they do it is it's either that way. Or if you don't go with that idea, they might show you that they don't like it then that much. That you just go your own way. And it separates you a little bit from what's going on in the club. Which is what usually happened to me in multiple clubs. Because I'm not a very good club person. Because I like to do things on my own. And now that I can, I can do whatever I want. And that's why I'm doing things that I think a lot of people have not shown. Like a side of the dog that has not been shown. And a side of me that I was never able to show if I wasn't for the internet. You know, the stuff that I do with my dogs or without my dog even is not something very common. I mean, I haven't seen it. I'm on YouTube for many, many years. And I haven't really seen anybody do it. So, you know, when people start comparing, I was like, okay, well, show us. I mean, talk. You can compare and talk all day. But you got to compare in performance.

You got to compare in what do you do exactly then that looks like A, B, C. So we can make this resemblance and then judge. Okay, it looks like you're a spinoff of XYZ person. But I'm looking at the field myself. And I'm thinking, well, you guys all look alike, but I don't look like you, which I believe is, you know, it's the biggest compliment I can give myself. Because I didn't want to look like you. And by you, I don't mean just anyone. Usually, you know, the average person that went to a club, got his results, was happy. Or any police dog that I met, they're all happy. They're all getting their results. But that didn't cut it for me. I didn't just want the result of becoming a canine handler or having the certificate or competing, just competing. I wanted more. I wanted to see what full potential was available from my side and from the dog's side. And there's no way you can extract that by just staying put in your club and listening to other people. It just doesn't work like that. You have to stand up and you have to create your own imagination, your own style. You have to come up with your own ideas. You have to be alone with your dog. Really, you and your dog. And that's it. No influences. Somebody already watching you, already influenced. Because maybe you don't want to try something. You don't want to look stupid. Or maybe you don't want to have this person critique you or whatever. There's so many things that create a fixed mindset. And that's why training alone could be literally setting yourself free from anything else. And I truly believe in it. I think the best results we've seen from trainers that I coach alone that come back, it's like, what happened? What did you do? They're just in their comfort zone. That's when you thrive. That's when you can pick up multiple skills, start combining them all, and then you come up with great results alone. Really? So people always ask for coaching. You're the dog's coach. That's already a coaching position. That's already taken. Only one person is the dog's coach. But I understand some people need guidance, need structure, need a framework to work in. Like, what can I do? It's not like, how do you do it? It's not, what can I do? What are my limitations? What are my strengths? What are my weaknesses? How do I make these assessments? How do I even judge what a dog's limits are? All these things, these are legitimate questions you have to ask yourself. And once you know the answer, that means you have an assessment ready. And with this assessment, you can start creating a plan.

You know, starting living the imagination of what you want to achieve within, you know, the realistic approach of what the dog can do. Because a lot of people ask me sometimes, oh, you and your flashy, whatever. And then they ask me, can you do this with a breed that I've never heard of? I have to look it up on Google. It's like, no, of course I can't. That's what they're talking about. See, because people think, oh, you're so tough now because you can train a Malinois. Okay, I do it with Labrador. Oh, well, of course you can do it with Labrador because he's highly driven for food. Yes, but isn't that the case with everything? I mean, if your bike's tires are flat, you're not going to win the tour. You're not going to win a race. You know, that's impossible. You got to start with something. Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah. And you also did it with, what was it, a Papillon or what other dogs? You showed some video clips with some smaller pet breeds. Yeah, the Poms, the small breeds, like in the end, there's no distinction. What can your dog do when he is active? But the problem is with the very small breeds, you have to bend down the whole time. I think that is the hardest part. It just doesn't give you that flexibility, that movement that you can display with a bigger dog. And a puppy, the face, you know, you grow and then the dog is just after a few weeks, he comes better size for you to handle. But the little dogs are also limited because their movement, because their paws are so small, they cannot show super elegance. They can only do rapid movement with their little paws. So it's quite limited on what they can show, as you can't expect the prance like an IGP healing and stuff with a very miniature dog. And that's, of course, something that I enjoy. So, you know, these little dogs have their limitations. And to me, to bend down the whole time, like every day and knowing this is going to be forever because they're so small. That sometimes helps me back from putting more time in these guys because actually they're just a lot of fun also, really. To me, the question is not always what breed is it. It's like, does he want to be in the game? Is he active? Does he want to come forward and earn something? Yeah, then we can do it. We're also having right now in our hand, of course, a small pincher, miniature pincher, I think. And it's a great dog. He's dry, he's flashy. And there's nothing wrong, nothing wrong to try to get as far as possible with all kinds of dogs. And I think that's, for me, before getting in the more professional branches, I learned so much from doing just the pet dog training.

Because you get confronted with dogs who are treated like solo kids. They get everything. They don't have to share. And they might not be expected to work for food or toy. And suddenly you need to think around the corner and think outside of the box how to create motivation and how to build something desirable for them. And I think that's a very interesting aspect of dog training. It's easier in the end to just work with the working breeds because they bring so many hardware already with them that is useful for our training. Well, wait a second. So it depends on what you define as easier, right? Because I'm sure if you give many people a dog, if you would call it triple A class, like highest level of genetics. And I don't think it would be easier at all. I think it would be a complete nightmare. It would be maybe even dangerous. It would be super hard, very frustrating. So it all depends on what skill level these people have to start handling these dogs. So we have to be careful what we call easy. We first have to frame then, okay, what exact training do we talk about? And then, okay, this or that might be easier with a pure working breed, but only easier if you've developed a skill that belongs with this trait you want to extract. So that's my brain. It's always this continuous assessment. Okay, what's the task at hand? What do you want? Well, then what is your plan to get it? And how do you want this to look? Very important. It's a sit down stand. You know, it's very basic what we call obedience, but there's many ways to do it. You know, let's say your dog is in a down and you call it into foot position. And you could say, well, that's easier with a working breed because the dog is more active. And I would say, well, it depends on how you want this dog to move into this foot position. If you want it to be super fast, explosive, dynamic, symmetric, completely on point, in perfection, with its chest lined up against your knee, all of a sudden that's not so easy anymore. Even though if the dog is willing to do so, it's your perception on how far do you want this one command. And immediately your brain will tell you, this is how it looks, right? If you have some imagination, it'll tell you, this is exactly how I have this exercise in mind. And to me, the answer comes then, how obtainable is this? How long will this take me? What will I have to do? How will I have to work this dog? So easy and not easy is if you have earned the skill, it's easy. So I ask you, can you drive a car and call somebody at the same time?

If you're going to say, of course, even though it's illegal, you can do it still if you want to, or you can put it on speaker. You could do two things. You can focus on this conversation and on the road. But when you were just driving a car, there's no way you could do it. There's no way you have to focus on what's happening. Your feet, your hands are moving. And I think it's the same with dogs or with any skill. If you earn the master of skill, you're adding one on top of it. You're adding and you're adding and you're adding. This is what we call talent is. The more combinations you have, you can make in skills, and you can all use these simultaneously. This is the definition. This is how you benchmark talent. So if we're going to talk about any dog's talent or any handler's talent, we should refer to this because this is what definition will go through my head. If you say, oh, XYZ, if we're going to talk about trainers, is talented. To me, it's the combination of skills they can access, use simultaneously, so they can do things better and faster than somebody else. That is the definition. So this is what I always refer to. So if you say, this guy is talented, always think, skills, what combinations, and the more complex skills, and the more combinations, the more talent. Because if you can combine very complex skills all at the same time, and you can access them always in your subconscious, like I said, like driving a car and having a conversation. So if you're subconscious, you're driving the car, you're still paying attention. It's the same with the dog. If you can do all these things subconscious, you can listen to the podcast. I can train two dogs at the same time. I can, you know, process many things, leash, leash, e-collar, for example, if you use it, marker, food, like so many things that go on. To me, normal. My brain is used to processing all these skills at the same time. Of course, if this is your first time, it's not going to be that easy, right? So if somebody puts a benchmark on, okay, what is handler talent? How do we measure it? Very important question. How do you measure it? And we have to measure it because we've been, I'm sorry. Yeah. We, we, we've been measuring dogs too much. Always measure the dog. How good is the dog? What did the dog win? You know, show me the video show. Okay. I got it. Look, we show all show performances of dogs. But if you want to coach, here's where the difference comes in. If you want to coach, if you want to teach somebody how to get the same result, we can't just look at the dog. Now we have to make a full analysis profile on handler. Right.

And this is, this is even more important because the handler is responsible for extracting the talent of the dog. He needs to develop the skills for the dog. So the dog can combine all the skills. So he's already in a coaching position. So he must be skilled by, you know, from the start because else this is what we see a lot in a professional dog training. When clients come, they all have good intentions, but the results are very poor. If they're not getting any guidance because their subconscious cannot handle complex skills yet, but yet they're doing it because they see an example on YouTube or whatever. And they don't know, they cannot extract what skills are being applied. So they just replicate and then it's a little bit of everything and it's, it's going all over the place. It's impossible to, to assume they're going to get great results. The majority by just watching a YouTube video and, you know, getting into this journey of trying to get a performance from a dog. But if you ask even the professional, then how are you going to get a performance? You, how do you turn your skill better? Can you tell me what skills you're even looking for? Even professionals, high-end professionals, how are you going to get better than the guy next door? If I ask you, hey, somebody's moving in and you live in Germany and this person is very skilled. He is, he can do a lot of things with dogs and he's cheaper than you. He's getting his results. You have a problem as a professional because your customer base, they're going, oh, well, I can choose between A and B, but B has better quality results. It's cheaper and I got faster, you know, I get my dog faster again, or I have more fast, you know, results myself. He's going to go for B, even though he likes A, he's probably going to go with B. So, so what are you going to do to, to stay on the A side, literally? It's a legit question you have to ask yourself as a professional. And that's something that would follow us in every, every state of life, I guess. And, and maybe something that can be described of the survival of the fittest. Yeah. Darwin theory. It's a very, very strong believer in all these theories. They make a lot of sense. So, Nino, now I have to make a cut. It was already a great intro, but we haven't really introduced you yet to the shows. So, we already drifted, but I loved it. So, everyone listening in already have heard a lot. And our today's guest is, is no other than Nino Tovert from STS K9. I guess most of you will know him from Instagram, from Facebook. We see a lot of great reels and videos explaining, but also training dogs.

To put it in Nino's words, a lot of very flashy training. A lot of training that, if you know already a little more about it, you realize how hard it is to train a dog, to be that fast, to be that precise. And that's how I got really attracted on, on Nino's work. So, hello, Nino. Great that you find the time having a talk with me tonight. Thank you for it. So, let me know where are you, where are you at right now? Are you in, in Belgium? Yes. Yes. Now I'm in Belgium. I reside in Belgium. I do, I mean, I do go a lot to the US for events, but, you know, post-COVID, it's not been as much as, as I used to before COVID. So, but we'll be back next year with a, a good event schedule. So, but for now we're, we're doing our stuff from Belgium mostly, you know, train the dogs. So. And you have been and still are in the police? Yes. Yeah. It's called a leave of absence. And so at the police, you get a chance to pursue your other career if you want to, which in this case is, you know, the dog training business. And that's what I've been doing for five years now. So five years I've been self-employed and well, believe it or not, in Belgium, you can take off seven years. So. Oh, wow. Yeah. It's, that's crazy, isn't it? So could you imagine going back after seven years? But yeah, that's, that's the case. So I've, I've got two more years and then you have to resign. Yes. Then you have to choose, you know, either go back or you're never going to come back. So that's the case. Great. So to all our listeners who, who are not that familiar yet with SDS canine, what does SDS stand for? What's the shortcut? And what's the philosophy? Yeah. So SDS stands for specialized training system. Now, what is so special then about this system? And what do I do is, so what, what I stand for is I want to use traits, natural instincts of a dog and extract these, these traits and we call them potential. And the potential is used to develop skills. The more skills we teach the dog, the more he can combine these skills that we teach him, the more we can define the dog as talented. So what we do is develop talent of a dog, right? But in order to do so, you have to make an analysis on how handler talent then looks like same thing for you, right? Because you're the one who's going to have to do all this stuff with the dog. So we profile the handlers, trainers, and we see what skills they need to achieve, they need to develop and how they can make these combinations. And that's what we call the master view, right? Because you have one side is a handler, other side is a dog.

And it's only by making a full assessment analysis on both that you will find a way to extract the potential and then, you know, lift, elevate the dog to, to live his full potential. And, uh, and this is something that I really enjoy because, you know, I love working dogs. So we mainly do working dogs and the potential they have is, is usually unseen because we focus on certain sequences or certain purposes. Like for example, patrol dog, police dog, okay. Sports dog, protection dog. So they always do certain things. So they highlight certain things. And what we've done is we've put them not into sequences, but more into overall strengths that we want to see from a dog. And I call these the five pillars. And within these five pillars, we are making these assessments and, and the combination of these five pillars is going to show us how good the dog truly is and how much control you have over this. Because in the end, if you're going to train a dog as a predator, so do not assume a predator is going to follow you like a slave. Because if you want to enslave a predator, you have to use force. That's you don't need a book to understand that the predator is not going to follow you unless you use force. So what our job is then cognitively, how do you understand to manipulate the predator? So he is willing to share things with you. He is willing to do things in your favor also. Because, you know, if you talk about dog psychology, of course, people understand a little bit of it. No dog is selfish. He wants to do stuff to obtain something. So our quest is then how do we, you know, create this symbiosis. So animal and, and human in this case, get mutual benefits without using force or, and then it's not about positive only, or, you know, using a compulsion, but like, if you have to, you know, touch the integrity of the dog to get your results, if you make him stressed out, or if he gets confused, you lose the symbiosis. So, and that is something it's very hard to, to pinpoint. Oh, when you get it, you know, when you get it, that's the cool thing. Once you get it, once you go on the level of, you know, synchronization, movement, flow, flow state, energy exchange. This is like very holistic when you talk about it, but when you feel it, you will think, Whoa, there's, there's much more to it than just, you know, doing a sequence, which I have also done. I really enjoyed sequences, but there is more to it. And this is what we do is we specialize and we focus on training handlers, develop the skills so they can, you know, then become either competent or develop more talents so

that they can extract the potential of the dog and do the same thing. So we, it's always a team effort. That's why it is important. That's why analysis are important. That's why coaching is important. That's why understanding what skills, the five pillars, same for the handler, also five pillars, five key elements you have to focus on. And yeah, that's what we've been doing. And it's what we travel is we, we, we talk, we give lectures about this and we help the dogs on the spot. And then of course, through my online program, people can learn from any place in the world on what this exactly means. And how do you get to start doing this? Great. So, Nino, you've been a police canine handler. You've also been head trainer at the department. That's what I read on your homepage. And now you have SDS canine. Who are your clients? And what you already told a lot, but what branches do you provide for them? So, yeah, we reach out to anybody who has working dog ambitions, but that doesn't necessarily mean your dog has to be working breed because there's a lot of great dogs that are not in the bracket. You see, here we go again, brackets and boxes of dogs where we shove them in. Oh, this is, you know, hunting dogs. These are protection dogs. These are, you know, pet dogs, you know, all these. And I don't know all the categories, but there's so many. It's not limited to categories. It's more like, is your dog willing to be, to use his energy? And like, is he willing to eat? Is he willing to play? And more important is, what are you willing to get out of this? Are you willing to establish a relationship with the dog where you fulfill some of its purpose? What it's meant to do is be active, is do things, is be very intelligent about what he does, you know, move fast, be dynamic, be symmetric to you. Like all this guy, is this something you're after? And if the answer is yes, you want the most out of your dog. Well, then where are the people that can help you? If you just want like plain pet obedience, just like you want just to sit and to stay and walk. That's not really what we do. We want to push ourselves further. We want to develop as handlers. And so we can create this unique experience with having a dog and training it. So it becomes like an addiction almost. You know, you want to train this dog because now you find out every day he can do so much more than you initially thought. And this is not limited to a certain group of dogs or a certain group of people. This is across the board. But I would say the majority of the people we train usually have a working breed.

But with working breed these days, we talk about bullies, even Dobermans. We talk about Wattwowers, Malinois. We talk about Border Collies, Labradors, all hunting. There's so many, so many to name. Some breeds I don't even recognize. And they're getting like, whoa, you're doing the same stuff that we do. This is great. So, yeah, usually just, I would say, active dogs and also active people that want the most out of this. Perfect. Being in a unit, but also traveling around the world, doing workshops, giving trainings, is there a nickname that got stuck to yourself that you can't get rid of? A Maverick or Iceman? Or how do people call you? No, no, we're not. How do you call it? It's not the Avengers yet. I'm getting fancy nicknames. I don't know. Maybe I'm referred to the guy with red shoes for people that don't know me. But other than that, not that I'm aware of. So they just call me Nino usually. Great. And getting up every day, what keeps you motivated doing so many things? Man, this is all mission purpose driven. Seriously. I don't even think about what I want to do. I think about what has to be done. And I know there's a bunch of dogs here that have to be worked. But I also know there's many, many students that need help, that need guidance. Every day we have messages of people reaching out. How do I get what you do? How do we get this obedience? How do we get this bond? How do we get this connection? How do we get this result? So people are genuinely worried about extracting the potential from their dogs. They don't know how to start. They came in with high ambitions of, you know, of course, motivation. But then, of course, if you don't have a blueprint, if you don't have any guidance, you're going to be stuck really fast. And then the panic comes because the dog is getting stronger. He's getting more powerful. Usually it's a bigger breed. You're losing time, of course, because the dog is, they ask me a lot, is my dog too old? I said, how old is he? They say, oh, eight months, 10 months. I was like, that's not, I mean, that's just starting. So, well, what are you worried about? We had students with a nine-year-old dog doing incredible things. But you could see that people can stress about this. And, you know, they're worrying. So we get up in the morning. And this is our motivation to, you know, make the best possible instructional videos, to put on the best seminars. Because, you know, this is a mission. This is not like, oh, I like to do this stuff. No. Even, you know, nobody likes to be in a plane for 10 hours, 14 hours. Nobody likes to live in a hotel away from the family.

And, you know, be by yourself the whole time and getting from one trip to the other already. But it's like, you know, you chose this. You know, I was having a good job before this. So I wanted to do this. So it was a purpose. I already combined it. And before I gave all my holidays to spend on teaching and making this happen. So now this is all I do. So for me, it's great. I don't ask myself this question. Why anymore? If there is one word you could choose, what would describe? Or how would you describe yourself? Yeah, it's what I just said. It's purpose-driven. And for me, this purpose, yeah, definitely will defeat the pleasure. So for me, if you say, hey, I want to invite you for a holiday, I won't get excited. I'm going to be honest with you. So, you know, for me, the work is the pleasure. So I designed my life so I can work the way I want to work. I don't have to, you know, listen to people. They tell me what to do or they tell you what to do the whole time. Do this with your dog. Do this with your dog. Go stand there with your dog. Even, I mean, that's already a dream job for most people. Oh, they can take the dog. But then they still tell you what to do with the dog. So, no. Those days are over. And to me, that's the permanent vacation. The state. I'm retired. Like, mentally, I'm retired because even if I wouldn't make money for this, I'd still do it. Because this journey of helping people grow, seeing my students have more followers than me, having, you know, greater results even. To me, that is exactly the reason why I said I wanted to do this. Because I was, you know, in the worst position possible when I was young, 27 years old. I wanted to train with dogs, but I was afraid. I knew nobody. Where do I go? I go to a club. I go to this person. I ask, you know, it's the confusion. The, you know, the fear of making mistakes. The fear of not getting your results. Yeah, I had to buy DVDs. I had to do all this kind of stuff. And now I'm in a position to help people. And I want to do it the best possible way I can. So, yeah, I'm a freak when it comes to that. So, but I guess you have to be a little bit obsessed with your work if you want to do good work. For sure. So, what runs the engine? Do you drink coffee? Do you drink alcohol? Are you a meat eater? Any specific diets? Or are you doing workouts? Cool questions. Nobody ever asked me this. They usually ask me, how do you train the dog? They ask me everything about the dogs. Nobody asked me what I eat. So, this is really cool. Yeah, I'm happy to tell you that I was not a coffee drinker. I never drank coffee in my life. I hated coffee.

So, can you imagine being at the police working night shifts and not drinking coffee? Coffee and donuts. It was hard. Yeah, but I didn't. But I had to lately because I work like sometimes 16, 18 hour shifts. And I was like, okay, let me see what coffee does here a little bit. I have to go slowly here. So, I always do cappuccino or cafe macchiato, right? So, it's a little bit more light than the strong coffee. And it helps me a little bit. So, that's the only thing I do. I would say 80% vegetarian slash pescatarian. So, no meat sometimes. So, yeah, I've been vegan for a few months. It's really hard. We try it. For me, it's very hard because if you're on the road and traveling, it's not easy, really. Even on the plane, if it's with eggs, it's not vegan, right? So, a cheese is not vegan. You see? So, it becomes a problem. So, anyways, it was... Yeah, yeah. But I'll try the list. What did you say? Sorry to interrupt. Vegan or pescatarian? Yeah, pescatarian. So, if that's the right translation to English because I'm not a native speaker. I speak Dutch. Yeah. Which I assume is in English the same, which means you only eat fish. No meat. So, you eat fish. Okay. So, you're not vegetarian because you eat fish then. But you're also not vegan or whatever because you don't eat meat. That's the only thing you exclude. So, they call this pescatarian. Yeah. All right. Again, something learned. Yeah. Yeah. And apart from the dog training, which can be physically, how to say, struggling sometimes the longer you do it. But you work out. At least you look like your year is a sporty guy. Yeah. Well, I've been working out forever because when I was a kid, my best friend who lived above me, he was an Olympian. He was a 200-meter runner. So, he had the body like an Olympian Greek god, right? And, of course, I was just a skinny guy. And I realized if you ever want to come close to looking like him, you're going to probably have to do a lot of things that he does. So, I was luckily able to spend a lot of time with him. He took me to his trials. He took me to his world. He introduced me to his friends. And then if you're introduced to people with a certain lifestyle, you become that. So, to me, I only met people that ate clean, that worked out, that were very driven, very disciplined, very focused. So, to me, that became the norm. And then I had a 10-year relationship with a Belgian runner, champion, eight-time champion, very high-level runner. So, to me, it was like, this is what we do. So, it was a very, very, I would say, you know, we didn't do anything. We didn't spend money. We didn't go on holidays.

All we did was train, eat clean, train seven days a week. It was like, for most people, it would be a nightmare. For me, it was the best time ever. So, only focus on one thing. And so, that mindset on how driven people can be to achieve something, it takes over. Like, you think about it day and night. You wake up, you think about it. You think every step you make is like, here's, I got to take rest. Here's where I got to eat. Here's where everything has to do with what you want to achieve. And for me, it was just getting closer to the level of, you know, my inspiration, my friend, and my girlfriend at the time. You know, very disciplined people. And that, I think, stuck with me forever. So, I always knew if you want something, you're going to have to work really hard. So, in comparison to doing dog training on, let's say, high level, you know, a lot of training professionally. And if I look back and if you want to become Olympian, for example, or try to be, right? It's very different. There's still a huge gap between if you think dog training is hard, try being an Olympian. Then you know what's hard and what's technical and what's going to, you know, keep your mind 100% at the time and doubt. You're going to make it. You're going to do it. So, it's just overwhelming if you want to achieve something and aim high. And, of course, I didn't make it. Not even close. But then going to dog training, I was like, oh, well, I wouldn't say easy. Nothing, like I said before, nothing is easy. But it's definitely not as hard as trying to become. So, I think from that mindset also, when I came and saw people work dogs, immediately I thought, okay, what kind of technical level? Because, of course, when I tried to run, at first I thought, okay, run just as fast as you can. It's easy, right? No, no, no. It's not that easy. Okay, the way your hip moves, the way you push your feet into the tarmac, the way your technique is in the bend, your body. Like, it was just immense. It was, whoa. It's very technical. Very, very technical. So, I completely underestimated that. And then, of course, I became a freak to understand this technique, to push myself. I wasn't, like, very, very gifted, even though I thought I could run fast. When you look at the fastest runners, you're very slow, right? And then, yeah, it's a disappointment, but I never let it, you know, get to me. But then when I saw people training dogs, I was like, okay, how hard is this technical level? Because, of course, I assume also to be very, very high. And I was surprised it wasn't. And actually, it was the people that were good at it.

They didn't even know what they were doing. And it's not like they were thinking consciously before about the footwork, the handwork, the coordination. And I think this is what set me apart a little bit because the way I processed movement, the way I saw, okay, this is wrist control. This is your footwork. This is where your explosiveness can come in to help. This is where you set the pace for the dog, the speed, all that kind of stuff. To me, it comes from my true passion. It comes from running. So, that's where I got this passion. I want everything to go fast. I need to be clean. I need to be perfect, right? The perfect race, the perfect track, the perfect time, the perfect elegance in your running, everything. And I was looking in my subconscious, of course, for the same thing because I was not the athlete anymore. It was a dog. The dog had to do everything that I wanted to do. Be fast. Be dynamic. Be explosive. Be responsive. You know? And so, now a chance to have my dog become the athlete. So, I was very technical on what the dog needed to be. So, and this is what I've done for so many years. And I had to think, okay, when people started asking me after the first videos on Facebook 14 years ago, and they asked me, how do you do it? How? How? I was like, okay, let me think. Because to me, it was at that time already normal. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, and now, of course, you know, people know what I do mostly. I use the handwork, the wrist work, the control of the hand feet, you know, all this conscious coordination. And then it becomes subconscious. That's when it becomes easier because then you can add more complex tasks to it. And doing the police work, I think police work is hugely underestimated. I heard you also are involved. And the reason why is because you're facing the same challenges as any dog trainer slash coach, right? Because you have to extract this potential femur dog. You have to, you know, dive into the skill. But on top of that, you have all your police skills. So, for you, there's more combinations of skill. And then there's one very, very important factor that nobody else faces is you have a constant threat. If you're dealing with, you know, patrol dogs, for example, or violence, threats, whatever, there's a stress factor. And we all know what stress does. It can diminish your competencies or your skills to very basic or zero if you're too stressed because then you cannot access your new skills any longer. And this is why dog handling is actually very, very hard on a high level with the police because you have to use your police skills. You have to use your new dog skills.

You have to assess the threat. You have to communicate. You have to make the right decisions. You have so many things. And if you don't consciously focus on what these components are that are going to, you know, be in your way, you're probably going to struggle more than you're having fun. I remember this is a true quote from one of my students at the police when I was an instructor. They said, I thought this was going to be fun. You see? Okay. So, I asked them, well, what do you mean? You said it was your dream. They said, yes, but I thought this was going to be fun. And, of course, nobody wants to feel stressed. If I give you a scenario, like a true scenario where things can go wrong and they will go wrong or there are threats towards your physical integrity, and now you have to make big decisions, right? Now, all of a sudden, this is not so fun anymore. And I see that. It's not fun. Who wants to be in that position, taking these decisions where you're going to either hurt somebody or get hurt, or this is not a fun thing to do. So, I can feel the stress because I've been there. This reminds me on something that Pat Nolan quoted when he was into the bird dog training, and they were working heaps of dogs every day. And he had co-trainers. And one of these trainers said, I will quit after this season because this is hard work. And people who are getting into the business, well, maybe sometimes they just underestimate that this is real work. People smile at you and say, well, you lived a dream. You're a dog trainer. But it's hard work. And it's not always fun. And it doesn't have to be always fun, I guess. It's a lot of discipline and gaining skills. And no pain, no gain, I guess. Yeah. The performance always exists of four components, which is talent, your combination of skills, then the passion you have. Do you have the energy to get energy? So, forget everybody, everything else. If you don't have energy, no passion, forget about any performance. Then comes focus and discipline. Oh, this is binary. You miss one of those, you're never going to get the best performance. Never, ever, ever. Same for the Olympian story that I told you. If one of these components are missing, forget about it. You're not going to be even close to being on any Olympian level. Impossible. And that goes across the board, of course. And anything you want to do, you want to do it very well, you need those components. So then, of course, first question is, what skills then? What skills are you talking about? Let's do analysis in depth. Passion. This is not something you can just get. Like, you either have this or not.

It's like this subconscious thing. You get up and you're energized because you read something. It's something that inspired you. Whatever it is, it gets you up. You want it so bad, you get energy. Even if you're tired, you get energy off of this. And, you know, it's a very important component that we have hardly any influence on as a coach, as a trainer, as an instructor. So when people come and they want to learn the skills, but they have no passion, true passion, it's always harder for them. Always harder. Because if there are long days, if there's a lot of repetitions, if it does get tough and you don't have the energy, forget about time. If you're thinking you have good time management, but your energy is low, it's irrelevant. You need high energy. It's more important. Do you have siblings? No. Yeah. Well, I have two sisters. Yeah. And are they also sporty or was it really this young friend of yours that got you into this close circle of very sporty, very ambitious? Yeah. Yeah. I was a hundred. Nobody in my family does any kind of sport. Okay. My sister is a lawyer, so she likes to study a lot. So, but no, nobody, nobody, any. So I have any purpose of, and sport, whatever. So, but of course, this young kid influencing, being influenced by an Olympian. I don't have to tell you, this is life changing, defining everything. Of course, I had to go back, right? As a coach, I have to, you know, assess my life myself. Like, how do you get, like, to answer your question? So I know very well where this comes from. And I talked to him sometimes and I said, Eric, you know, man, this is all thanks to you. But he doesn't understand because he was just being himself, right? He doesn't understand the impact somebody has, who you look up to. And then, you know, he gives you all these subconscious traits that you follow up, you know, about the diet, about the workout, about the ethics, about the morals and, you know, and achievement. Right. So. And there's also what you, because they're the circle closest, also what you told me about the clubs. Obviously, there you didn't find the right energy. It wasn't the right surrounding to grow. And I think that's, you know, sometimes it seems to be a little bit non-social. But I think it's, if you want to achieve something, it's important to look out for the right group, for the right peers to be with, to be able to gain the energy and to be disciplined, to work on your goals. And sometimes it's just hard to leave this ballast.

Yeah, I think there's, you know, so much truth in what you say is finding that right group that where your personality fits in, where your control mechanism is not going in overdrive because of the stress these people add on to you. Or you don't agree with whatever they say and you respect the people, but maybe you don't respect the method. And see, first conflict already. Okay. So these people want to help you. You have a good relationship with them, whatever. So they generally like you, vice versa. Now they tell you, hey, do this. I know it works. And you're new to this. And you don't agree. And you're thinking, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Please, I don't want to do this. And they tell you, all right, you ready? What are you going to say as a young guy, a young woman? What are you going to say? That's the dilemma of so many young handlers, especially in police or military, because they want to be a dog handler. And they have this gut feeling, ah, some of these things are just not right. And it's such a difficult point. But I think that could be a great topic on itself, on its own. Yeah, I see. But this is all human psychology. It has nothing to do with the dog. The method they propose. No, not at all. Let it be good, bad, whatever, confusing, that all of a sudden, you're getting this whole mechanism playing in psychology, like a driver mechanism. All the stuff that the professor has taught me, Mark, who I see as also one of my big mentors. Phenomenal guy. He's made psychometric tools scientifically, had them validated to scan, to assess people's talents, professional talents. Phenomenal. So I was very lucky to work with him, to travel with him, to study under him. I'm very grateful for what this man, what these insights were, what he also brought to the table for developing the master view. So, you know, a lot of respect for him as well. So also one of my big influencers on creating this system. Because I also thought, like anybody else, it's about the dog, right? We get the people to do the right things with the dog, and the dog's going to do it. You get the results. No, no, no. So it's the psychology, the way you develop talents, what is going to hinder you from developing, what is going to, you know, set you back, why you are stagnating, all this kind of stuff. What kind of coaching you need, what kind of energy you can build, growth mindset versus fixed mindset, all these kind of things. Such a huge impact on any performance you will ever do to, to neglect that part. To me, it doesn't belong into what then I would call modern dog training.

If you're saying modern dog training, and you're only talking about motor skills for dogs, you're only talking about stuff on how to do and tools and all the stuff for the dog. I'm sorry. That is nothing to do with modern. This is what something people have been doing for decades and decades and decades. And they've written books and books, hundreds and hundreds. It's all coming back. It's all the same stuff. But positive psychology, for example, has only been studied since the early 2000s. So, I mean, the way we have developed, you know, if you look at the Olympian disciplines, for example, how they have reached out to external consultants to help them with the performance had nothing to do with the technical part of their mechanics that they had to put in play. But it was very important psychology for them to perform on the highest level, to keep developing, et cetera. And I would say, well, this is something in dog training has never been done. And I know why. Because there's no money in dog training. Like, who's going to go and reach out? These external, like, let's say, for example, the professor was not passionate about dogs. And I would ask, hey, professor, I'm interested in your stuff and your work and your research and your life's achievements. Can you come into my world and I will pay you as a consultant? I mean, this would be unaffordable, this kind of level. Okay, so you need the luck to meet these people that have the same passion. And then they want to help you almost, you know, for free because they want to also give their information. And because else, you know, unless you're talking about Olympian disciplines that have money involved or that have many eyes on them, it's going to happen. But in the case of dog training, not so likely. That's why we have stagnated. I think we can fairly say dog training has not evolved the way we want to make it look like it's evolved in words. Revolutionary, modern. No, I'm sorry. It's not. Actually, there's many transcripts that prove it is not. Pre-Skinner, pre-Pavlov. And even if you refer to Skinner and Pavlov, then definitely do not use the word modern. These people are decades ago. So have they done significant things that give you insights and behavior? Absolutely, yes. Do you need to study them as a professional? Absolutely, yes. But do you need to prioritize this in a framework where you are given people, new trainers, the, you know, the physical tools to start learning and achieving? And I would say, actually, don't go on number one spot for me. For me. Because you always have to look at how did you get your results yourself?

Did you read books? Did you study these people first? Were they your, like your idols? Were they the people you wanted to become? But they're scientists. You can't become them. So you can't idolize the science, right? So, but it's good. If you read them, you have cognitive skill. It goes into the bracket of cognitive skills. But it's not going to help you on the spot with the dog and high drive or whatever technique you have to pull off. It's going to be meaningless. So where are you now with all the different pieces of shoes? Yeah. And that's a trigger. Books. And before you mentioned that when training dogs, you're not just listening to music, you're listening to podcasts or audiobooks. What are you listening or reading to right now? Yeah. So right now. Any recommendations? Oh, I have a ton of recommendations. But, you know, the book that I like a lot, that I really enjoyed the audiobook because, like I said, during the workout, it's good to listen. One that really stuck with me was, oh, my God, what's his name again? I just had a blackout on his name. I was just about to say it. I mean, the Navy SEAL guy. He got his book. Jocko Willink? No, the other one. Well, his book also, the other one. General McChrystal. No, no. I think I already read it twice now. Yeah, sometimes I get a little blackout. Come on. But we can get into that later. The marathon runner who also done the marathon. I mean, I recommended this book to so many people now and I can't come up with his name. I just got a little blackout. There are also many interesting short interviews with him, many short reels. But I think I know whom you mean. He's bald. Yeah. It's a shame. I don't... Yeah. It's going to come before the end of the podcast. He's an extraordinary guy. Yeah. It's insane. Do you have... Do you have... You already shared a quote from one of your students. But can you share a quote that is always in your mind that keeps you on point and helps you to keep others on point? Is there some... Yeah. Manta or something? Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Because, you know, life, when you're young, they tell you enjoy, right? You have to enjoy. You have to, you know, eat well. You have to do fun things. You have to enjoy a glass of beer, wine, whatever. And all of these things do not align with the purpose that I have. And the purpose is, in this case, I want to, you know, achieve things with my dogs. I want to make videos. I want to do all this stuff. And none of that stuff is going hand in hand with the pleasure. And the problem is, if you have a lot of pleasure the whole time, you go on trips, you go on... You do fun stuff with your friends. Everything is cool.

Everything is, you know, fun and games. It sets you off track. And I've seen that on the Olympian level also. The more fun they have, the less good things happen for them. But that's all right. If you're chasing fun things, that's totally fine. But I look for, you know, I'm on a mission and I look for a certain purpose. So for me, the purpose exceeds the pleasure. So purpose over pleasure is a quote that I really like because it aligns a lot with what I want to achieve. And sometimes, you know, 365, working 16 hours a day, it's not... People think I'm always kidding. I'm not. I wake up and I think about my work and I go to bed and I am still thinking about it. So, of course, now it's shifted a little bit. Before, I only had to worry about my own dog. Now I have to worry about so many other things that, of course, I need more. And, you know, it's something that I think if I get older, because I am, you know, already 44, you know, I'm not taking a lot of pleasure. But then again, if I would, would I be happier? I think at this point, my purpose has given me the pleasure. And once again, I'm on the same level as I was when I was very young, you know, trying to pursue my athletic dream. And I'm back where I was. And then it was crazy routine. Crazy. It was sleep, eat, train, work, always the same thing. And I was very, very happy. It was the happiest time of my life. And I'm back. So for me, it started putting things in perspective. Yes, I watched movies before then, in between. I had some fun, you know, try to find what I could do to feel better and stuff. Nothing makes me feel better than, you know, seeing how your work can grow into what you envision it to be. You're the same for your dog. If I have a puppy and I see this puppy develop, it becomes this dog that is now inspiration for so many people. To me, that purpose defeats anything. So that's how I live. Nice. I still can't remember the name of the guy. But I know who you're talking about. Yeah. Nino, do you have other pets than dogs? Yeah. Well, the Poms are pets. They, you know, they don't have the working life. The working life to me is, well, they also, just like us, we have to perform certain tasks, right? The working dogs, they have to move certain ways. They have to do things. They have to learn new skills. They have to get achievements done and stuff like that. So they, I mean, they can't just hang around, do whatever they want. So... Do you train them? Well, that's the thing. Not so much because they're so little. I'm more likely to pet them the whole time because I do like to pet dogs.

Like, it's something that eases the mind when you're petting a dog. I love dogs. Like, to have the little dog on my lap, my chest. And then it puts his, his snout like in your neck. And it's like relaxing. Ooh, this is the best ever. So I enjoy this too. But the thing is with the working dogs, it's more like, hey, these guys are real. They have raw energy. They have raw instincts. They want something. They want fast. Okay, let's, let's find a good way for both me. I get, you know, to extract their potential. They can do what they love. It's a win-win situation, but it's also serious. Like, you don't, you don't just go and open the, the door of the kennel or the crate, whatever. And then, all right, you can do whatever you want. No, it's very, it's very strict. So, and this is a sort of discipline I also use for them. You know, same for me, also goes for them. You have to first do this, do that, and then you can pull it. Problem is the more dogs you have, the harder it is to organize this. I always say, if you have big ambitions, like serious big ambitions, one dog, one dog, and he's going to consume all your time. But the results you get then with this one dog, yeah, they can be phenomenal. But the problem, I have to divide my focus on four or five different, it's too much, actually. I'm going to tell you the truth. Like, I can manage it, but it's not ideal. So, but I want, of course, my old dog, never going to, of course, give up my old dog. I have the Labrador, I have the other dogs also, the training. So, I have to, I have to. It's like, I don't have a choice. But if you want ultimate performance, ultimate control, I would recommend one dog, yeah. Do you prepare these younger dogs for other handlers? So, would you hand them on to someone else? Or are they your projects and your demonstration dogs? Yeah, they're my project. And some of these dogs, over time, I can say, okay, maybe they can go with another handler who has certain ambitions that I feel belong with this dog. And I cannot give it to this dog because, you know, I have a different structure, different, you know, type of setup here. So, it's very movement oriented. It's very high drive oriented. So, because, you know, I need to showcase what the dog is capable of. And, you know, at some point, okay, I cannot keep all the dogs here because I need continuous puppies, young dogs to show stuff. And then, yeah, sometimes I sell a dog. Sometimes I give away a dog. It depends. So.