Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 69: Dr. Melanie Uhde

case study and field study of all the things that we talk about, right? >> It's the the real laboratory. Like seriously. >> Yeah. and and you know it not that there's anything in terms of the surprise but it kind of just you know for me in particular also um the way I entered this field was from like I I came in thinking a lot about the science behind all these things because early on when I started my own my first dog training and then a little bit into pet dog training I wasn't very skilled yet but my brain works like why am I doing these things right for a lot other trainers they come in like just collecting a lot of years of experience and then eventually starting to look into the science and asking okay the the trainers that we support in that way um that ask how can I do better so I'm coming like from the other direction and for me it became very clear that you know you can talk about the science all day but you got to have the experience that basically is rooted in and and seeing what's happening and science helps you know giving you the nudge and giving you some nuance there but it's still like feeling it yourself and seeing it is basically what completes the story and that part itself like I question a lot people who have really big words whether or not they have seen the things that they're talking about um because like I talk to Michael Ellis all the time since I'm now living here. Um, it's like, yeah, you know, I knew this is going to happen or I understand why he's reacting that way, but now I'm actually also have to [laughter] problem solve it and see it in the moment is not a totally different story, but it is certainly um adding a lot of color uh to to the whole idea of training dogs for sure. Which part Which part do you like more? The the the actual training the dog or the whole monduring game as far as like the the mental challenges of how to train different things or like which one do you enjoy better? >> That's a good question. I like I think for me I'm not I'm not I haven't been like in this in this sport world for very long. So, I think I haven't been infected with like the competitive nature of, you know, training a dog that can compete in all these tasks. But what what kind of gets me a lot is the parallels to um what we ex maybe not on the same level, but the parallels what we expect dogs to do in the society and how to train them to perform even in real life. So, the the aspect of generalization for example, right, I don't want you to do this on that training field. I want you to do that when I'm telling you these things no matter where we are or um the aspect of sometimes you also have to because

and and and it's rooted in because trust me I'm telling you you have to and you'll be fine and that all of that thing is like what I think just like what a lot of nowadays in society normal dogs whether you compete or not experience all the time and the conflict that comes from that if owners or trainers don't know how to deal with that or the arousal level, like the whole thing about, you know, wanting to have the motivated dog with high arousal and yet stay functional and and responsive to you without suppression because everyone thinks you're just cranking them up and suppressing them. No, that's not the case really. >> Finding finding the way to control the behavior >> but to create the cooperation, not the suppression as you're saying. And and what is the cool thing about sports, especially in particularly protection sports, is that you have your own dog and you can have them from a little puppy. And as things go on, as maturity kicks in, different challenges arise and and you can experiment in so many ways like, you know, well, how can I make him let go? How can I convince him to come back? How can I? So with one dog and that's your dog [snorts] and there is no time limit literally and you get to experience what can work with him or her and what cannot and then put it back to into scientific uh uh ways and explain clearly why it works and why it doesn't, you know. Um, and and it's very interesting. I love the I I not that I don't like any other dog sports. I mean, I personally have done agility early on in the '9s. I mean, it was kind of by accident because, you know, I was living kind of where you are now in in the Bay Area. And [snorts] there was at the time really big community down south towards San Jose agility. I can't even remember their names, but they were like like world renown at the time. And they would come to they would come to like doing protection training with me with their border colleagues and almost kind of, you know, hush hush kind of. But they were smart enough because they wanted to add a little fun, a little more adrenaline, a little more even confrontation if you want to where the dog can come out on the better end of things. And yeah, they they kind of got me into it eventually, you know, I they would come and I would give bites and and the dogs have fun. Then I would go to their club and I remember still the first time they gave me I mean it was a a world team dog and they gave me the the map of the run what I need to do [laughter] and the dog was losing his mind because he had to go over the catwalk or titter to or whatever and wait for me there and spin and bark and just be

frustrated that I am not giving him what's the next thing to do you know and it really makes you feel like it's on me now you know I mean clearly it's on me however the the where I was going with this is the the comparison between protection and agility and dog diving and flyball and anything else really is that and I want to mention this because it always comes into conversation You know when we compare a very successful agility trainer with very successful IGP or monuring trainer or whatever protection sport and I don't want to take away because again this is a highly skilled and and I mean today compared to the early 90s is on a very different level just like any other sport. But [snorts] in in this sport, you're dealing with, you know, high arousal, extreme excitement that can lead to frustration. In protection sports, you have kind of two paths. You can present it as a okay well this is really we're going to start with the mindset that this is a game and it's very ritualistic and you don't really get to dominate or be somewhat you know show show any kind of aggression or even tap into that part of your brain. Um, and then there is the other part of trainers that really do the protection sports the way they're designed to be and find a way how to navigate with these emotions and this moods of the dog. Keep them as real as they are. recognize the the you know the instincts and the the different motivational systems if you want and learn how to control them and create this amazing picture which translates so easily into any any dog training that's outside sports because any dog that has some problem somewhere ties into into this kind of structure and the ways we handle and the ways we develop dogs, the ways we control dogs, the what what we learn through those sports are [snorts] very applicable in in uh um pet dog training and I mean like on on the other aspect I'm wondering I mean that the generalization discrimination stage as you were talking about. I just like, you know, cuz I I train I have a female that she's going for her too right now and then I have my IGP dogs. I mean, I can put her on a down stay and thank God I don't forget her because she's just going to stay there because that's the the game, right? She thinks that yeah, this is a trick. I'm staying here. Um, >> so, um, how how how do you see kind of what I was talking like the how do they intertwine pet dog training problems with aggression and protection dog sports? What are what what what connections are you seeing if you if you think that way?

Well, in both cases, let's just put aside, you know, what we would define as aggression in like all the like if we just look at the actual output behavior without a motivational state is in the in the pet dog world, I'm say something that is being looked well, I don't want to say looked down on, but something that needs to be that needs fixing, right? So um we can have a dog to be aggressive towards strangers or other dogs because that would kind of pose danger to other people or dogs which you know obviously makes sense um as like the societal structure that we have put together. Um what's interesting is that and I talk about this a lot um with others too is it's a little bit almost hypocritical because even as humans as society we love violence. We love being aggressive beating up something or someone. we just put it into like a a staged arena with like, you know, two boxers getting at each other. >> Um, and we pay a lot of money for it. Like the amount of money that goes into the most violent sports is kind of crazy compared to those who, I don't know, play dart [laughter] and there's no violence happening. >> We love that. And there is there's like some animalistic kind of thing in us too that we still kind of entertain. And for some reasons with dogs, we don't appreciate that nature, that part of them. It needs fixing. It has to be stopped rather than finding the same concept of outlet and structure that kind of scratches the itch without >> obviously causing damage to society. um being more integrative and being more speaking to the animal in front of us rather than what we're trying to stop constantly and you know personal protection work or ring sport or what obviously a dog that doesn't want to bite will not compete. So we kind of foster that behavior but put it on a very clear kind of playground for the dog. Right. >> Right. and finds kind of like a chance to let it all out while controlling these these impulses. I don't even want to say it's an impulse. It's just a behavior that comes and has its reason in nature and probably is very rewarding for a lot of dogs and so does for humans, right? So, we kind of see aggression everywhere in the animal kingdom, but with dogs, for some reason, we decided that makes a dog bad. And sure, there are dogs that are aggressive and that kind of, you know, are a danger to society, but it is not for all dogs that show aggression. It's for some dogs pure boredom, you know, pure like >> the cry to find some purpose in their lives and they speak to like the closest what gives them some sort of outlet of for their frustration. >> Yeah. >> So, I think we kind of need to redefine

how we see aggression. Um, sure all these analyses of is it fear based, is it rewarding, is it habit, all that plays a part, but the outcome still if it stays the same and it needs fixing, I think there's um, okay, maybe this dog needs an outlet that kind of speaks to the dog better. >> Yeah. Yeah. The the I made recently a a little solo podcast thinging about u it was resource guarding. That's right. Um because of the the whole narrative that really any any any kind of aggression is fear-based. And of course if you just keep peeling the onion and strip down to to then then everything is fear and then really nothing is fear at this point. Then then it's like what are we like come on. Um and and that's kind of like my take you know um like when you this is when I believe that of course there is some fear aggression you know of course there is sometimes the the dog is very concerned about their you know self-preservation well-being or or whatever they have and you know but Then there is a whole different group of dogs that I kind of group them all under competing type of aggression that that has a different purpose and and searching for a very different outcome. And the the cool thing about the the two is that when you let's say a dog is fearful and snaps at you for whatever reason as you're getting close, right? And you [snorts] back off. You back off enough to where the dog is like, "Okay, I'm safe now." And it takes about 15 30 seconds for that dog to just go back to its base. It's not it's it's over because everything is done. To where when we have the competitive type of aggression that that has a different intentions, there is something that the dog is trying to negotiate and and insist on. Even after the confrontation, they're not done. They actually kind of look and it persist and it's like, did you acknowledge that? because if you didn't, I I'll I'll repeat, you know, like like it's about who's who's driving the car here, you know, it's a very different take. And and when you have when you have um you take either dog and you treat it the wrong way to try to fix it, it's going to fire back, right? And what happens I think is that the the like the forcefree trainers generally are more successful with the dogs that are the aggression is fear-based even though that's very in my opinion very small portion of dogs that are uh um aggressive that way. And it's typically very easy because you you just leave it alone and and the dog is at peace and it kind of resolves it. But anyway, the the the force three are way more successful because of their approach there to where balance trainers are or at least some

some balance trainers cuz there's like levels there. they are definitely more successful with the other type of aggression because uh um now now there is you know even if it's a social hierarchy what whatever it is but there is some structure there is some negotiation that needs to some who is who here right and so they I I see how both camps can be right but then you flip the dogs >> and in both sides they end up in a really bad disastrous situation because you know you cannot work with fear aggressive dog the same way we would do with the other and the other way around. Um and and this is a it's a such a problem that we have that you know we stick to narratives and and not trying to to find what works and why it works and in which cases it works and instead it's the the one glove the one size fits all. that that seems to be in in both camps like on average the idea it's like no it it's like yeah it works like it works with my dog it's like the you know I mean somebody says well I don't need chemotherapy it's like good for you that you don't but some people really you know that's the the the [snorts] only thing that they probably have hopes for, you know, and and we just mix it because of the little fights and it's so stupid. Um, and then you know, like the ones that you were talking about the those experiences, this is the I I was about to talk about this anyway in the um Marvin Zukerman, the sensation seeking. It's a super super crazy like I I will I will put the links to this to people to see. Uh but it's a I don't know like late '7s or somewhere in there he he came up with some really cool stuff. Um and and basically he originally I think he was doing some he was interested in sensory deprivation kind of like what the military like the CIA and stuff do. Um [snorts] but then started to realize that there is a uh um you know the sensory deprivation actually leads to the of course increased anxiety and and this kind of weirdness [snorts] and and but then he realizes that there is also personalities and he just goes really deep into it and I think he revised that it's called sensation seeking and he made I think four or five He kept kind of refining his idea and basically he divided it in four groups. Thrill seeking um experience seeking disinhibition and boredom success successibility. I can never say this word susceptibility. And in the [clears throat] thrill seeking like talking people, but it's just the same thing with dogs. These are, you know, the the people and dogs that enjoy, they seek this

risky activity, you know, some some being sport, being whatever in life. But but it's a potentially pretty dangerous experiences that produce this unique sensation. That's why he called it thrillseeking sensation and and basically really what you were talking about just a minute ago. Um, added that everything else in your life is okay, if you're that type of personality, you will be seeking this type of adventures. This is, as you said, like the the in fact, you know what? I'll I'll just play this video because it's so super cool. Uh, and I will leave it to play for for people, but this is what we're talking about when we're talking about uh um who who wants to put themsel in situations like this. But let's play it real quick. >> Just for you. >> Surprise. The smack hands out a nasty 2-year-old bingo clerk. Oh, Ashley, go tell. I got the perfect call for a bingo clerk's wife. I begged a difference. >> No worries, Steve. The smack ball has been greeting everybody just that gently all day. >> Hello. >> Aloha. >> Like you know you're going to get busted sooner or later. [laughter] >> Good afternoon, good evening, and good night. [laughter] >> Takes it to the face. She could be the first one to cry. Never mind. is >> I mean it goes on and on. >> There is a master here. >> I think I've got a new >> It's like just the [music] champion. I reckon tough guy Jason's [music] new record could be in trouble here. He's timing it. He really is timing. He's not taking the punches. He's timing his way around. I think I've got a new hero. And then of course you have you have the MMA [cheering] >> nobody forces them to do this. They are crying to do this because they know that it gives them that whatever rush you know like it [snorts] there is this you know like the same with the dogs like seeking this kind of discomfort adversity it it provides the the stimulation and the challenge that they are actually really craving for the certain types of dogs. Now, would I do this >> to that extreme? Probably no. But are there people that love to do it for free? Absolutely. Right. >> Mhm. >> And and then we have the dogs. So if if uh um you know like when we're talking about um like the five domains, right? It's such a popular conversation to have the nutrition, environment, health, and then the behavior that leads to the right mental state. And now the nose work is the the best thing ever, right? In the force free. And the nose work, I mean, I I do IGP, I do muring. I mean, there is plenty of scent work in in both sports. And I love it. I go every day tracking with my dogs, but I know that, you know,

that's not for every dog. They will like to do it, but they will not get what they're really seeking. Like a a thrillseeking type of personality will never say, "Wow, this that's all I need." They can do nose work, but they they're going to eventually be like try to get some challenge, provoke some situation, create something simply because they're craving it. >> And and as you said, if we don't give it to them in a controlled context, it it goes into what we would call the behavioral problems. And and then you have so so back to him how he made them you know you have this thrill adventure seeking dogs and oh and the other thing besides the nose work this is like a oxymoron thing even if you want like you have a horsefree trainer and again nothing against this like I I somehow sometimes seems like I'm against forcefree alto together and I'm not. I really not. But you have your training protection dog in sport and that dog really is a thrillseeking type of dog that strive thrives on on some conflict, some challenge and and finding ways how to control it and how to, you know, that that's that's what's about. And then you have the force trainer that is trying to do it without discomfort and aversive while the dog is actually the only reason he likes to do it is because he's trying to challenge it and overcome it. And >> and it's like okay but but all right you know if that's how you want to do it that's fine. Um then he has uh Marvin uh uh um Zuckermanman has the thrillseeking then experience seeking which is a a a level below and it's very different and that's kind of where you would think of you know like if it's a person it will go hiking or do arts or something that is you know very uh uh stimulating but it does not have that uh adversity. seeking, challenge seeking >> and and in dogs would be what we were talking you know like you take fly ball take agility there there is plenty of emotions that are flying and it's just you know but it's a very different set that gets activated and then the interesting ones that he puts is the other two and the one the first one or the third one in his order is the disinhibition And the disinhibition basically it's like you know like he says uh um it's kind of like with humans he he would say more of like okay well it's like all party life and drugs and and and some kind of you know escape of of situations >> and finding finding reason of of satisfying something. But it's kind of displacement. It's dis disinhibition. And and we in dogs we can argue that we can see it in you know like the your typical excessive exciting type of dog that just has to walk on the flexi lead around the

block. And they're like, "Well, he walks five times a day." Yes, but he still walks on a flexit five times a day. So he's losing its mind and uh um you know any any kind of OCD all this compulsive stereotypic behavior all this you know it it just the lack of not having something that that you're craving and and you're searching it and and it goes into this weird places and then we're trying to fix it without realizing or without recognizing thing that it's not that hard to get fixed depending on of course everything has levels and and some different reasons but more or less in the bigger scoop of things the problems are lack of outlet and that's when when we say well we have the nose work yes but I don't like nose work I like to punch somebody in the face I don't like to play chess, right? And if we don't recognize that, then then it goes bad. And then the last one that he had was the uh boredom. I cannot say the suscept >> susceptibility. >> Yes. Yes. And this is basically you know it's kind of you they they just lose lose concentration. not even considerate. They just lose interest of whatever they're asked to do or they choose to do simply again though because it doesn't touch the soft spot in their brain or heart that gets them engaged. When that happens, then it goes much I mean I mean it it goes on and on and it can be the exact what you would call repetitive uh uh stuff that you're doing but it hits the home base, right? So that that's kind of similar to to you know when we talk about fear-based then you have the competitive kind of whatever ranking dominance any anything I don't want to put words and people to start fighting over words but then we have this sensation seeking types that we need to recognize and if whenever we're talking seriously about the five domains Nobody would ever argue, at least I wouldn't, uh, uh, with how important nutrition is, how important sleep is, how important the environment, the the health. But when it comes to the mental state, what behaviors and what activities suits one individual? And then we make it, oh, let's everybody do nose work. And it's like, no, it cannot work. It's It just cannot work. Well, I'll let you talk a little bit because I get I mean it just blows my mind when when uh you know somehow always the they they have to pull the rug towards the direction of aversives are bad, discomfort is bad. Stress, regardless of what kind of stress is bad. The dog has to be able to choose. and do you really choose? And it's like, well, if I tell him to go ahead and buy the decoy, and he says, I don't want to buy the decoy. There is nothing in my knowledge that I can do to convince him

to go and do it, right? Just like if you tell me go and fight this other the MMA fights, it's like a hard no. like I don't care what money like it is just unknown you know but you ask somebody else and they will say yeah let's go right now >> anyway what what are you thinking >> well I have a lot of thoughts [laughter] >> I know I I I just went off here >> uh no no it's good so just like something just along in the line in line what what what I watched uh very recently on Netflix. It's called Physical Asia and um they're like uh different Asian selected uh athletes from different countries competing against each other and they the the it's a it's a Korean South Korean show and the challenges are insane. It's not just something it's like insane. And one of the challenges was to for a certain amount of time um run on a treadmill >> and then you know who ran the fast as well. >> But like after that like this guy what he said it was like I was given everything so much so I I tasted the blood in my lungs or in my throat. That's he's like that's how I knew I gave it my all. And like this is crazy. like I I'm running and I probably would never run to the point where I would taste the blood in my throat and and yes, they're competing sure for money. I don't think it's the external reward of money that makes you do that. >> I think there's something else that drives you. You have to be a certain personality that is willing to go that far >> um to to to to win or to to again not to win something just to win through that challenge itself. Right? because you win. I mean, it is a win, but it's the the biggest win is inside yourself, right? That's really the biggest win. >> I don't think like the the money they would have gotten or they they whoever won is matters all that much in that moment. I don't think any external reward can make you perform that way in that moment unless it's something that speaks to what that's aligned with who who you are, right? like a dog that really likes to bite. The external reward is a decoy that you can bite. But I think it's not the just because of the the bite there. It's like what happens inside. >> Yeah. >> Doing that biting that makes that dog crazy for it. Um but like the whole aggression understanding of aggression research per se you know has has all for a very long time researchers have been really interested in um the concept of aggression because it's not that simple and we have in research far beyond the idea that it's always fear-based like no one I want to say no one obviously those who do are interested in fear and fear aggression talk about it but um that that

conversation in research has expanded ed significantly over the last 10 20 years. And one one review kind of stood out to me where they took rats or mice, rats, I think. Um, and rats, as we know, they're prey animals. They're prey animals. There is no reason for them to be liking aggression. Makes no sense to them. They don't have to necessarily maybe the territorial aspect of it, sure. But like, you know, like um a a coyote or whatever chasing some prey animal actually has to show all his aggression to get food at the end. Um they don't really have to do that. And yet, and sure, it's a little bit of like selecting a certain strain. So, it's a little bit >> magnifying glass to look at it, but it doesn't mean it's not true. Um, so there's like they they set up the experiment where you the the rats um they they could press a lever in order for a door to open and there you have a submissive other rat that you can go and fight. Now it is something about winning there, right? So it had to be a submissive mouse or rat, but they also had to go through the learning of I press the lever, then the door opens. And that's a it's a it's a sign for motivation. Like are they willing to put effort into are they willing to work to press the lever? And it's not just one lever. They experimented with this. How many lever presses um are they willing to go through in order for the door to open? and they ran us with a bunch of of of rats and about one/ird if I remember correctly um or maybe 2/3 um they were like sure they kind of did it but they weren't like crazy for it. They didn't go constantly to the lever even if the lever was accessible to fight. And then there's a maybe another third, you know, that's like two/3 maybe a little less than a third. um they liked it, you know, they went up every time there was a lever, they would go and they would press it and they would then go on and fight the other other mouse that shows like they find it rewarding. But then >> there it was the smallest percentage but nevertheless it was there a subset of these rats that showed addictive like behaviors towards getting into a fight with another rat. >> Ta. And what they did is when they [snorts] saw the lever like little crackheads, they would press on that lever frantically like this could the door couldn't open >> cannot wait right >> they could not wait like I'm going to die on this lever but I will fight >> and again these are prey animals now take a predator take a dog take like the percentage I'm pretty sure if we could there's any way to actually quantitatively measure is the percentage of those that are addicted to this

thrill or find it rewarding is probably more than half >> versus those who don't like it. >> And a lot of temperament and breeding has plays a plays a role here. Sure. >> But that's how like a lot of the research now goes into what is it about this addictive behavior for some animals and that applies to to humans too. I mean a lot of these animal model studies are really there to understand humans not so much they don't care really about fixing anything in the red world. Um they just use them as animal models for humans too and then dogs too. So yeah, there is there's no we should talk about this >> rather than is aggression there, yes or no, or is it fear based? Yeah. Um >> I find that super interesting like you see this in other animals. You can measure it there. You see how much effort they're willing to put in in that conflict and >> that kind of effort that a dog is willing in order to find confrontation. >> Yes. is a good measure for the motivational state behind it >> and nothing brings fear in those situations. >> Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly. And you know when when it's genetically predisposition for this kind of sensation, right? It's a very different and and I think the probably the biggest mistake is that we're just trying to get some kind of average of everybody. But when you do that, >> you really do a great disadvantage to the those thrillseeking uh uh you know genetically predisposition animals and humans that like to do that. And you we I mean we do malinoas and you know like we we breed working malinoas. Um you can see them from little puppies. What they do? You can see them what 15 16 years old, half blind, half deaf, crippled. like you have to pull them on a harness to to get to the bite and give them the choices of high value food toys. Well, they wouldn't be interested in in mating at that point probably. But let's say there is a female in heat like there is no question that it's a very straightforward I am going to do this because this is the highest of the highest that I ever get and why because it's challenging because I control it because the the the big argument of well there is no agency you know you're doing aversives well yeah if you if you do the aversive and this is another Like you know that study Shala did 2007 with the bigles, the three groups and and and basically everybody that you know on on the side of against aversive just grab a stronghold of that study of the two groups that were you didn't need a study basically because the one group what they did was pretty much flip a coin and say okay yeah let's shock totally totally totally non-contingent upon

anything. And of course, of course, what what do you expect and the other one was just as bad because they paired the the queue the command here or come with the shock. So, it's simultaneous. So, of course, no way to control it, no way to predict it. Same disastrous result. However, there is a third group that nobody wants to talk about. Yeah, >> right. the group that actually it's contingent like you have the command [snorts] then the dog has a choice and then there is different outcomes different consequences and it's so frustrating when that study gets cited like I've I've searched on on the AIS how how many times been cited and I think it was like 90 times in in in strictly on on the K9 science, right? Not one time in those 90 times, not one time they mentioned that when done and it's contingent upon it's highly effective and besides the temporary stress to solve the puzzle. There is no there is like zero welfare concern and and I don't know frustrating I I was thinking to talk studies later but here I am. Um [laughter] >> no because they always talk about the agency and about the control and it's like what the dog didn't choose to get shock did he? [sighs] No, we didn't. >> That's what what you said at the beginning there. There's always like this this this twisting of words and facts and concepts that makes you like like it reaches a point where like we're not talking rational or logical anymore. Now it's just like who can come up with like some crazier idea about justifying whatever you you're trying to justify. And that's >> sorry to interrupt you, but I I have to mention this one because I I I saw you were you had to I don't know why you choose to, but >> you had to deal with Janie [laughter] >> that I had the threehour or how long podcast I had >> where eventually she was asking me why I don't do this to tigers and it was like that that's now where we are like why I'm not doing this to [laughter] tigers. >> Oh gosh. Yeah, I yeah, I should have written down like like all these things that that that's just that yeah that makes me feel specious. I don't even know how to respond to that anymore. Like what why are we talking about tigers or anything else super unrelated to that like the amount of analogies that we come up with defeats the point of analogies. I talked about this before too. An analogy is there to kind of make a concept understood easier, not to completely come up with like a new >> take you off the rails. Right. >> So, yeah, that's where we are. >> Yeah. And and and you know, like I mean, you you tell the dog to lay down before the bite. The dog knows very well what to do and says, "I I'm not going to

wait right now. I'm I'm going to take my bite and I'm taking a chance and there is an not so good outcome for him but he made that decision and he took that risk and sometimes it might work. This is what I believe they actually it's part of why they like the game because they understand at some point the rules and of course when we have rules we try to bend them and see how much we can bend them and when you can you know and then you have to play by the rules at the same time and that becomes you you're totally under control but you're making the choice choices in different situations how you want to act and that's what makes that game if if we're talking protection sport right now that's what is huge part of the game that makes it interesting of like okay I'm I'm really losing my mind I really have to go with that decoy and and really show him and I'm saying no no not right now and now we have to negotiate and we have to cooperate we have to find a way how ultimately the dog is always in control of where they can guide the the situation. So it would be very different if somebody start to do what I mentioned with childcare study, you know, just totally like flip a coin shock, flip a coin, crazy leash pop, um or or similanous conditioning or or I mean it there is many ways to do it wrong, but there is also a way to do it right. And any trainer that's successful, they have no choice but to do it right at the end of the day. And doing it right means the dog has agency at that point. There's not just cannot be argued about. But but that is a big argument for some reason. Um >> you know when you it's interesting because when you say do it right and good trainers learn how to do it right. Um some some arguments we hear a lot and I'm sure you've heard that a lot too. It's like yeah you have um trained and successfully competed at the highest level. You know what you're doing but there's so many trainers who don't know what they're doing. They're using e-collars and they shocking the dogs and that's why we need to ban this because they do not know how to do it right. And and then the other in in hand goes hand inhand with that is well the timing in order to use punishment has to be impeccable. It has to be like within a millisecond for the dog to understand it. And it's one of these other extremes that they're taking the conversation to because I don't think that's true. And I don't think data tells you that's true. And I also think experience-wise the two things that happen. Dogs are a lot more intelligent than we think than people treat them >> in terms of learning. >> If you're off by a second or two, but

you're somewhat consistent in that realm. The dog might not be perfect and like for competition behavior, but if it's like a pet dog training, they will learn. They will figure it out. and they will figure it out despite the mistakes that we make because they're not stupid, right? And and the other thing is also that for me it's like okay, let's assume you're up new upcoming trainer and I'm fairly young in my at least for the the sport world career like journey. There has been certainly some things that that were I admit make mistakes have made mistakes already. But >> because I'm also young at this or um fresh in this I'm also very careful of these things very I don't know anyone who just starts out to put an e-collar on and unconditionally or like non contentionally yeah zaps the dog around to the point where the dog is traumatized. Those are trainers that have done this. Those who do that have done this for a very long time and they deserve to be called out. >> Yeah. But not the young ones who seek out education or young ones in in in their journey or like trying these things and they need to give in the space to to learn these things in a non-judgmental way so that we can actually then differentiate between those who kind of like don't care about the welfare of dogs or don't care about improving their techniques and call them out and those who are actually in the learning process and make a mistake or two. But the dog the dog uh will be okay. Like there is >> the dog experiences pain for a second. Sure. Whatever training maybe the Alps for a moment. >> None of these things have ever been indications of compromised welfare. There are other factors that matter much more. >> Yeah. especially looking into the the the long-term outcome of of you know some sometimes the choices people have to make for their dogs are very challenging and very difficult too and with the electric colors I I agree with you I I actually I think I say this quite often yes they're aail available to buy at PetSmart. Yes, they're available to buy online. And yes, people buy them because we know they buy them. Like I sometimes talk to some of the um owners of the electric companies. It just happens to I I don't really know any of them like on a personal level, but anytime I have an option in person to meet and talk, one of the questions that I ask is like how how are the sales going? because it's interesting for me because that's a very solid data of of what's happening out in real world and the most interesting part is Europe with the biggest brags of how the bands and how you know I mean it's what 2003 2004 it's when the whole thing started

with van debour and shitler that study the sales increase every year like in 2025 December right now compare the sales anywhere in the European Union to last year they're higher and that tells you that first of all legislations are not working but it raises also a concern because people buy them they don't know cuz it has to be it's taboo so it's behind doors or you go somewhere and instead of really doing a good work with it you have this one time so it's not the optimal way to to work with electric colors but do they yes and they would say well you you only know about sport world people and that's that's not true uh sport world is quite small especially protection sports. So you cannot sell you can sell so many electric colors to the sport people right. Um but the sales goal and and I guess the the biggest problem with everything that we are facing right now is do aversive first of all have any place in modern dog training and is R+ with all the counter conditioning decization premix principle differential rein enforcement and let's name them all. Can all that substitute and not do better but just do as good without aversives and it's a hard no. It's like it's not and there there cannot be argument which uh uh we bring the studies for that too but we don't even need studies because it's just their innate motivational systems that once they get triggered this is it and sure enough there are levels yes there is a dog that kind of butterfly hops towards a squirrel and you say hey come I give you something and they're like sure I come. And then there is the other the other is like no that thing is going to die [laughter] right now. And and that's the end of the story. And and what is really crazy is that they don't even need this, you know, it's biologically programmed. They don't even need to have the to kill two squirrels already. It's It's kind of like the, you know, the funny joke about how the rabbit knows to run away from a fox. It's like, well, it's not through experience cuz once the fox gets it, it's dead, [laughter] right? and and but we fool each other when we talk about the possibilities of art. Plus, we really fool each other and and then we create studies that are so easily there is there is no evidence in those studies that what the claim is that actually works. And I think this is the biggest thing and once we I don't think I was going to say once we

agree but we will never agree on this with them. But if we were to agree that aversives have a place, then we can come to the conclusion that the electric color is arguably the safest of all aversives because of control and level of intensity and so on and so on. And and uh uh you know it just triggers what it needs to trigger in a brain. But it's a false alarm. But it's highly effective, right? I mean, that's why they did all the studies with electric. They they used to bang them and hit them and pinch them and all the birds and rats got injured in the first two tries and they cannot make a study, right? Um so so I think it's really about is it even possible to talk about the use the not the use but the the importance of aversive because there is really no substitute to it in certain situations >> or like in in general like we treat aversive control and positive reinforcement as if like they're just two sides of the same coin and you can't if you don't use this you the And it's that that's not that's like utter nonsense. Like in in the whole animal kingdom and biology or nature, there is no replacement for one or the other. They both have their own evolved systems and serve a certain function. Ultimately comes down to survival of the the fittest or the one who can reproduce the best and seek pleasure and avoid discomfort. There is no flip-flopping back and forth. And you can get to a certain extent with one or the other as like a primary training method if you will. But don't underestimate the follow something will have if you think you can completely replace one with the other. And it goes in both directions, right? Right. >> I mean I don't know anyone who really just uses punishment. That would be even though you know you're probably you're probably I think you're known to be the punishment based trainer and you don't use any rewards >> in your training but there is no replacement and the fallouts that people don't want to see because they are a little more subtle maybe but to my or for me equally detrimental to the welfare of dogs is creating for one the illusion that you can fix something and put a dog through like a six month, five month, four month training system that does nothing but add conflict because you're trying to convince a dog to do something for something the dog is just does not care about much >> that becomes aversive like take this freaking treat or this freaking play toy whatever and stop chasing the squirrel differential reinforcement stuff right like I don't want to so now you're like there okay well either I keep you on the leash I manage you but the dog doesn't want or you take something and there's

place for that in training too, right? Where train dogs have to learn to take something of lesser value, maybe to access something else of bigger value later on, >> right? >> But that cannot be always like that. No, that's the magic of the decentization thing that they, you know, it's like of course there is there are plenty of places where you can do it, but try to do it with some innate predatory motor parenting and it's going to work until the moment >> when that heart just skips a beat and that dog makes that look and now the system is activated and end of story. And then what kind of makes them believe I think what really makes them believe that they are on the right track is because up to that point they were successful because there was the trigger was dormant and the soon as soon as you take it just one notch below the trigger is dormant again and it's working again and it makes you think that you just need more time now. >> Take a step back, >> right? And how do you explain that when when somebody is so convinced that they they can do it the you know when it comes to like the reward system let's think about the reward system right so that is nuanced as well and evolutionarily seeking out external rewards in terms of like food per se just scavenging and finding a bush that has some fruit like we're living in the wild. Uh, and we've never been there before and we're taking going around the corner and there's a bush and has like these these pairs of whatever. It's not a bush but like a tree or whatever. And we're like, "Oh, wow. That is very tasty." And we'll go back to that tree over and over to get that pear. But there will be a time we'll be like, well, if I found a tree with tasty pears, maybe there's somewhere a tree with something even better >> or more trees >> with more pairs. So the seeking is kind of set up so that we will always try to seek more. That's why we all addicted to our phones or whatever the dopamine hit, right? We're kind of trying to get something more and more and more. And that's true for like you get the piece of food and eventually that piece of kibble is not enough. So you have to level up, right? So there's always a time where the dog makes a choice. Either I kind of try to exploit this a little more and get more from you or I go out and seek something else. And there is there is you hit a ceiling. We as humans hit the ceiling because there's just so many sausages or steaks we can produce. But the system doesn't hit a ceiling. the system the dopamine seeking system will never be satisfied completely for forever always seeking something else but I do think and I

don't I haven't found any clear data because you can't really measure that that much like with the pred predation and in the- moment stuff but I think it's a little different with the internal sensational rewarding exciting whatever feeling arousal for like these innate behaviors like chasing, stalking, going after something that will always be magnitude in its way once it's in and it kind of aligns with the dog wanting to do that, >> right? >> Meaning you basically are there left with competing externally with a reward that will never be enough. Plus, you also want to compete with something >> because they're just not the priority at at those at those moments. Just at those moments. Otherwise they are working phenomenally well but at those moments they don't and that's where the confusion comes as you as you talk about. >> Yes. >> Yeah. Exactly. I think this internal thing that drives behavior that is independent of external reward because it's not dependent on the dog actually catching the squirrel will be more powerful than being dependent on external rewards. And you can't compete with that by offering something else instead because it's a lose situation for the dog. It's like I don't even know what you have right now is what I want or need. But this right now feels amazing to me. And on top of it, I might chase and and and catch the squirrel. I don't know what I'm going to do with it. Probably then it's going to get boring. >> That's true. That's that's true too. Yeah, that's very true. So the only the competing part there is like something else that is internally driven which is avoidance behavior and avoiding discomfort. Avoiding that learn to you know comes with its own relief rewarding sensation once you successfully avoided it is kind of like a better competitor to the internal rewarding activity than it is to have a externally rewarding activity. >> Right? And then it opens the door to you can reward pretty much anything you want. >> Right. >> Right. >> Then you can come in with your differential reinforcement. You know, it's like >> sure all these things that you guys you guys are talking about >> because now the dog is back to okay, what are we doing? >> Yeah. >> Right. and then >> but it doesn't work that way even even even in a conversation we cannot get to to agreement to this and it's I don't think it's a matter of not understanding this I don't I am sincerely genuinely puzzled why this is still an argument cuz okay I mean somebody like you know this like the the many people on social media that they're just spoonfed the narrative okay that's besides the conversation but the people there's people that

understand because this is not complicated this is really not like some astrophysics we're not it's a clear clear different biological motivation systems like the predatory hierarchy, sex drive, uh the sensation seeking all all this like even even if we like we understand this subconsciously. But somehow Skinner said one day that society is going to be free of of aversif going to just be the best thing ever on planet earth. But nobody asked well that didn't happen. I mean that was a long time ago and it still didn't happen. And it wasn't because of lack of effort. Even his errorless learning never ever took off besides uh Eduardo Fernandez's uh life thing and and you know his errorless learning study where he proved that trial and error dogs suck and and the other ones are so much better off. And when you I don't know if you've read that one, but that that's a mind-blowing too because out of what how many dogs were there, only eight finished. The other ones kind of lost interest even even the errorless learning dogs. They just lost interest. But it doesn't even say well it doesn't say probably because it doesn't nothing happens. But when you're talking about trial and error learning, you you have to explain what happens when they make the error and that just left in a blank. >> So it it makes you think well did anything happen or they had to kind of have some discovery aha moments. um like I don't know the the clearly we have to have consequences in in on on earth. I mean I mean anything you have a plant and there is sun and there is shade and there is water and there is not so much water and different plants will choose a very dramatically different environment. They're plants, right? But we we are like, "Oh, no. Everybody needs this amount of water and this amount of sun." No, that's not how it life works. And that's I I think that's just the the well the hardcore I don't think all for three people think this way but the hardcore the people that are after the legislation and the bans they their objective is to of course to to get rid of any any use of aversives and unfortunately they're not providing adding a substitute because if there is a substitute, why not? I I would consider it. Why would I not? I mean, why would I not, right? If you and even then we still have to recognize the the sensation seeking, the thrillseeking, those that they besides behavior problems. Just like somebody likes rock climbing, somebody likes punch in the face, somebody, you

know, like there is that whole other reason why aversives are good. I mean, you take the little kid that gets bullied at class that struggles at home with his um second mom or whatever and yeah, there are few different paths that can happen, but quite often the best one is going to some martial arts school and hopefully there is a good community and and you become a good kid, >> right? And the same happens with the uh um you know the I had this one podcast here six and a half hours and I don't know how I'm gonna I really don't want to edit it. >> Yeah. Don't >> but we are kind of talking over each other. I don't know but eventually I'm going to post it. But I was explaining how because the anytime somebody disagrees with or or anybody anytime somebody want to kind of I I don't even know what word to use here kind of diminish my my position. It's like well you're sport trainer you're working with this highly selected highly bred highly whatever highly whatever. It's like, "No, I I trained pet dogs and I trained dogs with problems since 1991. This is a very [ __ ] long time. And every time, every day in my kennel, I have a some really interesting, crazy, hardcore, difficult case because it's interesting and I'm trying to help." I was trying to tell them that a shy dog being picture anything any any dog you pull from the shelter or some whatever some mixed little breed that it's lacking confidence. It doesn't necessarily have like a some strong genetic like non noise sensitivity something that we cannot deal with but but basically it's a confidence thing. It's like okay you try to pet him and and he cowers and doesn't avoid and so on and highly aware of everything very concerned. You put them you have again two choices. You can comfort and provide stability and never resolve and build the confidence or you can provide the discomfort or the fear that demon that is in there in [snorts] a very controlled level and allow and teach and show the dog how to succeed over it. So it's either comfort or overcome and basically where the the recent conversations you've been having about resilience and stuff like that you cannot ever accomplish resilience through comfort. Nobody nobody that wants to become I I can do this. This is not a choice that you're searching comfort. you're trying to overcome something and you need the right dose, you need the right, of course, you need the right setup and everything, it has to be done properly. But if you really want to build up self confidence, which is all the time happens, it's strictly about controlling and overcoming challenges that are adverse in some way, right? I talk a lot. [laughter]

>> No, I like it. And obviously it's a very passionate topic because [snorts] the way I think like their tools like the e-color and the prom color and aversive tools and it's one category and we kind of sometimes get stuck on tools yes or no but then that kind of provides the ground for the certain communities to say well I can do the same most of it without the tools why would I have to use it but it's kind of very narrow-minded view you got to zoom out a little bit and mean in the bigger picture is like it's about overcoming adversity, stress. It's about the whole thing about stress and resilience. >> Yes. >> And a dog that has never had to overcome anything adverse and there are a lot of like forcefree trainers that say we do use stress and and I would like to know how that actually looks like. I never got to that conversation. But in my mind, there is obviously overcoming some challenge in order to gain a reward at the end. Sure. But there's also something to be said about overcoming something the dog just does not like in that moment. Even if there isn't a reward waiting >> because that is sitting in that discomfort coming out of it. And sure you can sweeten the deal per se and say like yeah whatever there can be a reward but it's not for the reward. I'm not doing it for the reward overcoming that challenge. >> And that part is outside the realm of forcefree or reinforcement positive reinforcement only. You cannot apply these concepts in a in a purely rewarding way. And I've gotten a lot of hate for that. But I do think that because the forcefree community is very >> But do you think it's because they don't understand what you're saying or because they don't like what you're saying? Like >> I don't think they don't like what I'm saying. I think they understand it. And everyone who has lived longer than 18 years on this on this planet has experienced it themselves because there has been a moment where they had to do something that they didn't want to do and they didn't get rewarded for it and they had to do it anyways and they didn't die and they probably came out better and probably when they're 40 50 years old they're going to tell their child children you know there was a time when I had to do these things that I didn't like and they had to do it anyway. We all tell these stories and there are books after books after books that are being published, the discomfort crisis or the challenge is the way where we talk about the pain and the discomfort and how this makes us stronger. And of course, the nuances and the setup has to be right. So it does for the dog. But an anxious, timid dog needs to be able to understand that

working through the com discomfort is not the end of it. It it would be the biggest accomplishment for that dog. They would literally be like >> things changed. >> Yeah. I can do this. I can be >> right >> someone who keeps the head up high and I don't have to hide or avoid. And obviously they don't have that conscious thought, but there are new biological systems that are in place to make a to create this emotional state of, oh, I actually feel good about myself right now. That's weird. >> Let's do this again. >> Let's try the challenge again. >> Melanie, let me ask you this then. If if if that's the case, do you think they do it? I mean the the R plus people because they know that it it has a place but they really believe that the majority of people on earth cannot apply it right do not understand that and it will lead to massive abuse of dogs all over the world and and it's some sort of prevention like would that be a a reason why they do it. They're so hardcore. >> I based on the comments that I get and this is for example in the context of asking the dog for consent to get handled. That's for example one of the things where I don't necessarily have a reward. If I need to clip your nails, I need to clip your nails and you have to learn to hold still and I may give you something but maybe I'll just move on with life right after because I don't whatever. And that's one of these examples where I'm like, you know, that's that's potentially stressful and adverse to a certain level. My dog rather is not in that situation. And it's good for the dog to learn to work through that. Mhm. >> The comments I get is usually, "Well, um, everyone, if everyone would take this for face value, that means they all would kind of like force the dog and and potentially be super, uh, violent that way and, I don't know, wrestle this dog down and and clip the nails and that's not necessary because that would lead to abuse." And I think that's I understand where they're coming from. I understand that concept, but that that that narrative comes from a place of because they've never experienced it themselves, right? And they've never done it that way potentially themselves for it to go so horribly wrong or they have seen someone who really, >> you know, has done it the wrong way. And I'm all about education, right? I'm all about sure that's that's you know if you need to kind of teach the dog first a still queue and you reward for that but you got to like like you said at the beginning with your own dog got to experiment with like what works and what what doesn't and and you're not going to break your dog >> with one session of like maybe not going

well because you held the dog dog's paw and the dog got really upset about it. Um and and the research the science is telling us very very clearly that resilience happened in those moments where we overcome a challenge where animals overcome a challenge and that is more generaliz not only sorry sorry to interrupt because I and the way my brain works I will totally forget it and hopefully you are not like me and you can keep going once I said but it's not just resilience it's also a big element of trust there. That trust >> is like you know the the the big argument of you your dog's going to just fear you for life and you lose their trust and you and actually these are the moments the trust kind of gets exposed for what it is and if it's there and if you understand how uh how you handle the situations that's One of the huge benefits of all of the as an outcome it's because of that um you know I mean I mean there's has to be some sometimes things will go wrong and and and go wrong does I know people now will start thinking some shocking and abusing and >> go [snorts] wrong meaning any anything you know like we we can get confused or whatever But there is the conflict resolution skills to where it's like okay I I don't like you to cut my nails. That process of me convincing you to trust me that I will clip your nail and there is no any other outcome. I'm not bargaining with you about it, but just that conversation that we're going to have and I convince you that I keep your nail. This no force negotiations can reach that level of trust and cooperation. It's just not possible because there is no need for that in their world. Anyway, I I I really I don't know. >> No, I agree. And that reminds me like there's this idea also like you you know how the narrative goes like you are your dog's number one person. So you would harm the trust punishment or whatever should never come from you. >> You're right. >> It's the opposite. It should never come really from someone the dog doesn't know because that leads to the wrong outcome of like now I hate you or like I don't want to work with you. But if anything, you're the only qualified person to apply any kind of training method effectively because of the trust and because of the social reconciliation you can have after. And that's very very very meaningful through the relationship more so than anything else like well not anything else but more so than just the rewards per se that you produce and provide. And uh in the same way, you know, like I wouldn't holding my my Oie's paw to clip his nails and knowing kind of like he will try to wait for a moment. >> Yes.

>> I would do that necessarily with a dog I don't trust or know either, right? It goes both ways. Like we I we know each other. We know our limits and I know this is not this is not tipping over and not 100%. And I mean I I just to stay with that nail example because I know people will go off in all sorts of direction. It doesn't mean that you grab the paw and the dog is trying to move away and you're like there is no chance you're losing that battle. >> No. If he freaks out and says, "Hold on. I'm really freaking out." Yeah. I would let him go and show him that he has that option and then we come back to it again. It's definitely not the picture of, you know, let's just squash him down and he cannot move and he just clip those nails no matter what. That's not what we're talking about. >> No. No. And that's what they usually take it to that point because it sounds like this is what we are saying and I'm what I'm saying is like in the realm of modern dog training, we don't talk about brute force in any of those things. All of those require some level of of skill and nuance. And if you're not there yet, you can learn that. That's what education is for. Um, but we can't always take it to the extreme that way, right? Um, so so yeah, I think I think that's that's one of those things that have so many benefits. And sure, you can do all the green light, red light, consent, behavior training, and it might be a relationship experience in different ways. But what happens to your dog if it will have to get handled elsewhere? The vet is a classic example or has to get you have to examine your dog because there is something stuck in the paw that hurts. And here comes the same what I said earlier. Now if something hurts you have an instinctive avoidance triggered behavior triggered in that dog because the dog is like I don't want you to touch it because the brain is like we need to protect it don't touch it and now you and then on top of it layers in the learn behavior of saying hey you taught me that I always can completely avoid that situation >> because I'm giving you the red light more or less. Now you're adding two conflicts. You're adding the config, but now I have to. The dog doesn't know the difference between what do you mean now? I don't want to now especially I don't want now. The dog doesn't know the difference of now you really have to. >> And on top of it, the dog is already stressed and hasn't learned to work through this concept of I'm stressed a little bit and I don't want to. Right? >> To their defense, they will say, well, we have gaba painting and tradon. It's like yes, you do. But

>> you're still missing the big picture of of a dog trusting you that that's some some sometimes life is just brings these things that you deal with and you come out some something very good comes out of this kind of situations. um you know like the and I I I wish I can talk to some I mean I'm going to talk about this with um I have a force trainer coming to my podcast hopefully you know they they very often we schedule it and then they put it away and put it away and put it away and I keep reminding them for five six months and finally I'm I don't think you want to do it and then they get offensive and it's like defensive and it's like So if you talk like this, no, then we're not doing it. Uh, you know, but hopefully I have that conversation with with this guy uh soon, like this week. And and one one of the things is, you know, like you take a game, you take possession games like tug of war game and you you have two directions to teach the dog to let go. The one would be to offer something different and basically make that not interesting in whatever shape or form. And the other one is to keep it as interesting as it possibly can be and have this bubble bath of brain chemicals that are saying let's go and make him control himself or herself and do that out. and then accept that there will be some consequence if needed and it's going to be something aversive. But you're maintaining that state and you're creating cooperation in that state which is the interesting state that you want the dog to be at. So if you're playing tug of war but the dog is not really it's kind of when we were talking about chasing a squirrel. There is two ways to chase a squirrel. One is like a look at this thing hopping. I'm going after it. And the other one is I'm killing you right now. And it's the same how you can play tug of war. And the one has extremely cool benefits in terms of making certain agreements between you and the dog and learning how you can control behavior through cooperation and not universal suppression, but also making it super interesting. Or you can keep the game in that really lame level that the dog never gets to experience what possession game really is. The the first one has Yeah, I I get so hot about this because I think they like it's Well, I can teach him to let go without aversives. Sure, everybody can. Like, everybody can. I can promise you that if I play with that dog and you play with that dog and he outs for you with for a treat and he outs with me because we made an agreement and we put that dog in front of the two of us and choose which one that dog wants to play with regardless if it's a

highly well bred Malina or very spooky uh border collie. the bull mix. The majority of dogs will go for the challenge because they want to control it, because they know how to control it. Which tells you again that there is that innate desire to challenge yourself and nose work is not a challenge. There is there is discomfort. There's like different thing when a rat terrier goes underground. You can give them any rat on top of the ground. You can give them whatever chicken you want. But if there is a rat in the ground or whatever it is in the ground and they may come out half blind and bleeding and guess what? they will go in the next hall with even more enthusiasm because of the nature of what's about. And I can never explain this to a force trainer for some reason. [laughter] >> Yeah. Well, like I think again, let me let me give you that that reminded me of this. I think it's a good way of categorizing this. So when we talk about behaviors that we want to see and you talked about in the the example of you know letting go but then going back to to the game with that item of interest rather than diverting the interest sorry rather than diverting the interest onto something else hoping the dog >> is kind of like okay I let that go to get this one but I really didn't want to let that go in the first place and just you know you kind of you kind of diverted the the the interest. So in a way the dog has not learned now to out when there isn't necessarily the other option right or hasn't learned to out the object of interest when it stays the sole object of interest. And what happens a lot um in terms of the learning aspect um is when we talked about at the beginning about generalization the how context matters and everyone knows context matters. the dog knows I'm in a training room or I'm in an open field. But I don't think we sometimes we underestimate how much context matters because the internal state is also context. Meaning where your focus was if you feel hungry or like don't want food if you have high arousal or low arousal that is context. And the importance of context for the brain is kind of like the way I describe it is um the dog might not exhibit any given behavior yet, but the dog went into the library into the shelf that says outside and has now all the books represent the potential behaviors that the owners is going to ask. And one of those could be high arousal. one shelf is like at higher rouser I'm going to be asked this um at lower arouser I'm going to be asked to redirect onto something and not worry about the lure that is dead on the floor right but those behaviors don't apply in other contextual internal

environments unless the dog learned to apply those behaviors in those environments. So a dog again high arousal really going for something wanting that and not having any other redirected behaviors or redirected rewards needs to learn to out if that is something that what the end goal is right and I think we sometimes have to go backwards in terms of like what do you want pet dogs what do you want with your dog to do like in what situations do you think you need your dog to out or what would make your life more joyful if you had a dog that outs the tug when you play really wildly and let loose and uninhibited with your dog but yet you know need to out every now and then or do you always have to have like stuffing the treat in the dog's face to make them out at that high arousal level and um that has helped me a lot to understand certain certain behaviors but also also um what you just said with like liking the challenge something that I found very interesting thing what I observe with Ali. Um, so he he takes the bite work very seriously. He's he's not the sporty one who's like, "Oh, I'm liking I'm having fun. I'm getting like exercise." He's like really personal. He likes >> Yes, >> I like it. >> Like he challenge that fight. He doesn't like do zooies and has like a possession zooi whatever. He's like, "No, no, no. I don't need that. I'm just going to come right back at you with this." And um in bite work when we did some some bite sessions with Michael his out was actually much cleaner because for him it was worth the effort to out quickly and go back to >> continuation. Yes. >> Yeah. And then when I play with a little ball in the string his out got like really really messy. And it's like you whatever equation economics equation we think we're doing with like I'm giving you a treat instead. The dog has its own economic equation. and calculations what's worth and what's not. And if this isn't aligned with what we need the dog to do, then we have to help other ways, right? And the dog will be able to learn because now you added another thing to the equation as if like you also have to a little bit quicker if this is within the realm of possibilities. And um yeah, yeah, you got to you got to see this and experience this. Like he outed so cleanly and quickly and I'm like I was hanging behind him on on his harness like when did that he never did that. so so beautifully and like these are the little moments what I said at the beginning is like where I see certain things that I know and have read about in like scientific concepts but now I see it play out in front of me and that's very >> that's very cool yeah that that's super

examples and of course there's plenty of times for positive reinforcement I mean how how come that it's when when positive only trainer has nothing seems to have nothing else to say. It's like well no you're you're simply just punishing dogs and that's not learning. I mean who does that? Who who does that really? And are there bad trainers? Of course they're bad trainers. But are you going to change them somehow by by taking the electric color or or >> right >> how how you going to change this personality? This is whatever it's you know and then the big how how how are you feeling about the the industry being licensed? [laughter] Uh >> I have I've been bought ways all the time, but yeah. >> Uh you know, I don't I'm not sure. Um I um I don't know about license and having this as a requirement for being a dog trainer, like a professional dog trainer making money. If it means it kind of steers the education into one direction. Um >> yeah. Yeah. >> Either direction. >> That's a pro that's the I think this is the reason why it shouldn't happen because it cannot just go this way. That's not education no more. >> Right. >> Yeah. But but um that's a big one for them. I think people that do bad things with animals, they they there has to be consequences. But I think there are consequences. I mean I mean there is animal care and control. There is police, there is there is government agencies, there is jails, there is fines like you know it's just a matter of making enough awareness well there is this place that is doing really bad things and then investigate it. But don't put this false alarm on trainers that >> right >> you just saw a dog on a prone collar, >> right? >> Come on. Like seriously. >> I think that's the problem that we have like this this false alarm constantly happening and and and like even like like take me as an example, right? Like I I I don't even train pet dogs oneonone anymore, right? I do some virtual sessions. I do K9 conditioning and fitness, right? And then I talk about the research and then there's like someone saying this is malpractice and others kicking me off K9 science conferences because I'm abusing dogs. And I'm like and people jump to that. It's like you have no like even if it was true, you're still going to have to produce some some evidence of that. And there is literally none. And you see my dogs that I share every now and then, they don't look abused. And yet you go just by, you know what I'm talking about. So now we're creating this where everyone is potentially abusing dogs. Well, guess what? The ones that actually then abusing dogs are just hiding behind that, right? >> Right. >> Because matters.

>> Yeah, that's kind of I mean I don't want to get in human politics, but that's the same thing with like now everybody's a Nazi. The moment the moment somebody doesn't like somebody and you just turn it into like come on, like we we've lost our common sense. Mhm. >> I I mean in Germany, what do you think about this one? The latest uh dog welfare thing with the the written test before you have >> Oh my god. [laughter] >> It's like, okay, well, let's not forget that you should feed your dog. >> Like the dog also eats or Yeah. If if if it poops, you can scoop it with a poop bag. like like what have we where are we going? Well, I didn't look at the actually at first I thought it's a scam like when I said it. Oh, this must be like some this must [laughter] be not true. Um, and I didn't look at the actual questions that they're asking. But, you know, like if you compare overall the welfare of dogs in Germany, I would say it's better than it is in the US. >> I agree. >> Yeah. >> And there it's not because dog owners will now have to take a test. It's a whole like mindset around >> the culture. It's a long long long time. Yeah. >> And it and it starts with little things like like my friends in Germany when I got my first start who was rescued from a shelter and I told my friend my particular friend doctor and a friend in Germany and like well he's he's like oh and then you know make sure he's not around females in heat of course. I'm like, well, he's he's neutered. And he like first he thought I made that decision and he judged me real hard like the German way, you know, and I'm like, no, this is every dog here is pretty much neutered. And he couldn't believe it. Like for him, it just did not make any sense. And then I said, well, it's because we don't want them to have unwanted litters. And he's like, well then just >> do the right thing. [laughter] >> He didn't get it right. And [snorts] um it starts there but it doesn't end there. There are like other things that and again it's not every dog owner but when I grew up there was no one in my near environment because we all live kind of like in apartment buildings. No one had a dog. No one had a dog. And the amount of like thinking that actually I think goes into it's like do I have time? Can I walk the dog twice a day? At least when I grew up that was kind of like no you can't. Well, then you >> then you just don't Yeah. >> And do you have money to go not just to feed the dog, but do you have money to afford training? Because I don't know anyone who doesn't go from the beginning. >> True. >> The dog training, not just when problems show up. And so now having to have

[laughter] that test, it's like, man, you're like, you don't even know how good you're already doing. like you really don't need to add all these things because now it gets to the extreme of a crate is apparently also not good for a dog certain certain hours. Yeah, >> I think they did this. I mean at least what what I heard from my friends in Germany I think it the whole idea started because of the bully breeds and trying to put some some kind of regulation. So it's like well if you do that then but then these are ridiculous tests that's you know like there is probably >> I I would be very curious what what is the failure rate on this test like is it 0.5 >> and if that's the case what's the point like is it just some kind of okay we're doing something you know like in in this interesting one we had a few years back just like how it happens periodically in different parts of the country here the the all positive will kind of try to infiltrate a region or a city and try to sneak some legislation and then of course some noise is made and they always fail and I hope that's continues to happen uh but that was a situation 2000 17 or 18 here in Tampa and and we made the you know I mean all the doctrineers went to to the meetings I mean there were a bunch of meetings and finally what happened was we came to this agreement that well let's find out what let let's give it some time and see what what really happens. Let's keep track. And basically there was a decision made that if you if you have a pet training business when somebody comes for training they have to you present your plan your protocol of training. If you're going to use aversive, if you're going to use electric color, that's discussed and it's signed that the owner is in agreement and then eventually there is some followup if there was some back you know blowups and and you know bad things happening and that went on for I would say two years. Like everybody that trained dogs here literally had to do this for every single person. We would write the plan and then we would send it to the whatever pet commission and somehow it just faded away. >> Nobody talks about it no more. And I mean in some way I understand because there is nothing nothing is really happening like there's just nothing happening. Now on on another side we had another law and you know this kind of the differences sometimes uh in different states in different parts of the country but around here sometimes people tend to put their dogs on a tie outs. So there was a law against that which is not a bad law. However, somebody has to go and follow up and drive around and actually do the things that you say that are not

supposed to be happen. You have to control it. Nobody does. So in there's just a lot of noise and and make you feel good kind of legislation and then it just kind of goes away unless what happens in Europe and I don't know how much the force three people really believe that there is no prone colors and there is no electric colors and I And it it would be I don't know it would be dishonest to if to to to even say that this is not the case simply because again there is no proof. There is just never been a proof that you can control certain innate motivational systems in any other way when they get activated. I mean the China Cooper meals that double you know 2014 and 2020 or whatever it was. I mean besides the stupid things that okay not stupid things but controversial you know doing it in different places in the winter and the spring and and this and like like there's just quite a few things that you can say well that's not how you do study. But the biggest problem with this study is that it had to evaluate the two different type of training on effectiveness and welfare because you cannot just have welfare without effectiveness. >> Correct? And the study is based on predation that in a predatory model pattern like chasing sheep or chasing whatever livestock. Well, the what what they were doing is just so so silly. >> Mhm. >> So this is this is straight from the from the study. I've tried to talk to Daniel Mills few times. I actually talked to him couple of times through email until he realized that I'm going to challenge his ideas and and that was the end of it. Um but I talked to a lot of people and I got I have even a little video and I have bunch of pictures. You cannot make a study on predation when the ships are in 5 by 10 or whatever this they they they cannot even walk there. Forget about running. Forget about triggering that system, >> right? >> And the dogs are on meter and a half leash. Who cares if they're with electrical or you're giving treats or or whatever you're doing? You're basically not not doing at all what you said that you're going to do in your study, which is compare the effectiveness and welfare on can you control predation. That means the dog has to get in that mode. It has to go after a ship and then you show demonstrate that you can control it and then we judge on top of that what it take and is it uh um welfare dog friendly, right?

And the argument that I would get is that well in UK there is a law that we cannot just let the dog go. But then don't make the study. Then you clearly cannot make that study. And especially when this study is cited and referenced and and it has become the the gospel of studies based on never demonstrating neither side never demonstrated that a dog running after a sheep that it's also running that you can get it back to you. >> So what is this? What? How can we pass a legislation and say that forcefree works based on on China study. It blows my mind. It it's it's a classic it's a classic like echo chamber situation, but people like keep saying this study and they read the abstract and maybe the title, right? And it kind of fluctuates in the internet and now everyone is using it and everyone is citing it and everyone feels like now this is um the gold standard for proving anything and and it's not even like these I mentioned that before too like these studies they have become very clickbaity because that there's nothing in that study that that explores the welfare >> the way we should think about welfare >> and dog owner survey does not count as proof for anything um or evidence for anything. but it's really not welfare of the dogs and yet it says so in the title and this is not the only study and then on top of that the setup is very very and like I fully acknowledge setting up especially like some sort of case control study that is was trying to be that here and that in that at least like the way they they they put it the Cooper study um like the second version basically and It's very hard to do that with dogs and trainers. Like I totally acknowledge that it's very hard to set that up and account for all the factors, confounding factors that could influence the outcome. But that doesn't mean that we just then take whatever we see in that study for like the the the um the efficiency of something and it doesn't mean that we can not talk about it. you still have to mention that the way the dogs were selected and everyone especially the forceful community we are all about the different personalities of the dogs and their personality tests for the dogs and like I had one >> um and and and then here all of the sudden we we we ignore that and we okay with that not being acknowledged because the samples the sample is so the sample size is so low so the confounding factors are very significant here and then on top of that you don't even you don't even like even close to exploring or analyzing what you set out to do or what it is being used now. And then on top of that to make their way out now you're also just picking within

the study words that the authors used. >> Yes. >> Not even the data itself because the data doesn't support either of that like none of it. So this is like such a big shitow really like what this study has come to to represent that like it's it's it's it's a mess. It's a big mess and and and you know the study by itself I think there are some things that you can learn from it. It's not like it's totally useless. It's just not what it's being used for. >> It's not what it's being used for. Correct. and the and and and the the the the value or the the weight of what it what is being used for is not even close to that. >> Yes. It's a very serious statement to ban the use of electric cars across the world because we found out in that study that it's not welfare friendly. That's a that's an incredible leap >> in faith. >> And and they they cannot not not he's a freaking professor in a university that is teaching like I've listened to lectures of his I mean I you know he has some interesting stuff that he teaches but then going this hardcore just based on ideology and not what you're seeing and what you're finding or or at least acknowledge that I I don't know like they should have not have that study period because >> if the country doesn't allow to test for predation then then end of story maybe theorize put put your theory in paper but but it comes as go explain to to Genie that the study is nonsense you have no chance >> right Yeah, because there are like because it's never being like even the discussion itself or the way the the words flow in the result section, you know, like somehow we also completely ignore that the rewardbased group by the e-color trainers that these dogs were seemingly stressed too even though they weren't trained. >> Yes. >> E- color like how do we ignore that? How's it possible to ignore that? And >> and even when you look at the margins, I mean, I'm sure you you have I mean, we're not talking like some disastrous outcome over here, >> right? Yeah. Yeah. And and and and you know, like what bugs me is kind of like like at some point I stopped reading all of them. I'm sure you did, but I I stopped reading all of these dog training studies because it feels like they're all the same in like trying to prove something that the study doesn't show. >> And they're all the same in terms of like what you can possibly take from it. And like how many more studies do we need to show? Yes, there could be stress, but really it's about the controllability and the understanding of the dog. Like this is what what these these studies tell me. and the dogs don't have a good understanding or we don't even know how exactly the protocol

looked like because they don't spell out exactly how the training happened. And that's to me kind of one of the big principles in scientific research achieving to consent is you have to set up studies that are reproducible not just by your own lab but by other people too. So we can understand multiple factors that lead to some outcome. None of these studies are actually reproducible because the the selection of the dogs is like off. you can't reproduce this. You don't even know certain confounding factors. Some random ass trainers that just happen to be around. And none of those is reproducible. Everyone produces its own unique kind of study that hangs in like the no in the vacuum. And they don't collectively add up to something. But they all used to make it sound like thousands of studies, hundreds of studies show like no you have you have a pile of something. No matter how much it is, it stays still kind of like a pile of something, >> right? >> Not valuable. So yeah, >> I just remember another point of the on that Daniel Mills Cooper study with the you know cuz they they supposedly got the trainers from the electric car companies or whatever. But just as there were laws that they had to follow, at least that's the the story which I I I can believe it as far as the no not allowing those to just run free and chase ship because maybe some ship going to get tagged and and things will go bad. Um but then again don't do the study. Um the other part was again there were some limitations and and I think the the electric color people they had to they had to use low level there wasn't a choice by the trainer they had to use low level and [snorts] I mean we know that you know the level is not dictated by the trainer but the motivation at the moment of the dog um so so that that's another big problem that we're And I mean Schindler and Van Deborg, the very first one was just insane and it's so hard to read. Like I've spent so much time on this one. But it should stop right where we talk about there is the the groups were not randomly assigned pre-selected being harshly trained versus others. It's like hold on like the where are we going with this? like how I'll show you something with the um I I promised you I'll show you this one. I think I promised you this when we were at the ICP conference when we having lunch the the Cly study. Um I'll I'll show you this. Uh but so the the critics of the study you know like there there were some reviews and stuff and the biggest one was the well there were few but the one was like the the stress like the behaviors the lip licking ear sets low tail all this stuff wasn't really measured or wasn't

uh uh explicitly analyzed in in the study. And then that um and then there was the other one about the um the two dogs that they had to be pulled off from the study because the number of shock exceeded the limits of the study. So to I mean you you understand how this has to get approved and and this is very you know normal um there are limitation just as Mills had the limitation however if he had this kind of limitation again he should have not pretend that he's doing that kind of study um so there were couple of dogs that basically they weren't just because they were more shocks That doesn't mean that they were tortured. They were just very committed to continue. They were eventually we were successful. However, we passed the limit by one or two tops and and you know that that's how it stops and and that's understandable, but it's not by by any means. It's not a some kind of a failure. just a a matter of level of motivation and commitment and and what it takes you know sometimes you know you can you know you can tell a kid hey don't do that and the kids like okay I didn't even want to do it anyway and depending what is at stakes the the consequences have to reach and meet that level of motivation in order to be successful it's a just I I don't think this is hard to understand. Um, but imagine if what typically a a real dog training would be after you stop the dog, you will actually offer them something else to do. You're not going to just leave them out in the open to wander. But even when you leave them out in the open, you can see how there is really no need for uh body language analysis, right? They're just bored to death. And they're the kind of dogs that they're, you know, highly sensation seeking as we were talking because we selected these dogs like we had about 60 dogs and we selected only the dogs that just never quit chasing. I mean, this is a metal dish. You know who plays with a metal dish? But you do when you when you have nothing else to do. At this point, I am just on my phone like I'm just texting friends because there is just really really nothing to do. Now, let's not forget that they yelled when they got shocked the first day, right? And let's forget, let's even not talk about the force free group because I have a very good argument why it don't work. But let's say they did a very shitty job in their protocol, which is not true. Let's not compare that. This clearly is highly effective and there is no blowbacks. And that's all they did every single day for the rest of the study. We are just bored like we just like okay this is just really and then you see the which you will see some of them the the

first three groups you know they just never stop chasing and barking and whining and just highly frustrated that this is just imagine if if you just engage them right now in anything playing ball or doing sits and downs whatever you want they will be eager to low that there were three groups, one shock and two positive. The one was heavily the the the idea was desynthesization and basically exposing gradually and eventually speeding up and and you know and of course conditioning the the word banana with throwing food and stuff like that. Now however before we this is whatever day in the study but before that we had to test them twice to make sure that they are really really insanely goal oriented and they're chasing they're not just having they're like they want that war. [snorts] So she takes her treat but she's like but but that thing is there. It's the thing is not even there. It's not there. It's not moving. There is nothing. We're starting like from nothing, right? There is she she wants to go but there is nothing to go to because it's a very initial stage of of the denization the sensitization uh protocol and the treats are not you don't choose like we whatever the the owner brings and if we feel that they're coming up with some lame stuff we have a lot of cool things to offer. I mean, they definitely like the food. This is the very first time the lure started to really move. That's day four or whatever day that was. But now, the lure picked up the speed that triggered the instinct. And then and and on top of that, there was a little bit of deprivation. They they you know, this is early early in the morning because it's Florida. You can see we're kind of trying to to do it early in the morning because these dogs did not want to stop chasing and you know and again nothing nothing is moving there. This is later in whatever day this is later. There is no return. There's just absolutely no chance. Of course, think about what what their cortisol would show, right? And some of them were of course loud. They're whining. They're barking cuz it's they're in drive. They're like having the best time of their life right now. What like what what's interesting is you know the all the dogs were doing the same thing. You know the the one part of the study was or not the study but the the final test the first test was when you the owner and the trainer are present. So you can try to make a recall if you need to. But then the very second test is when the owner and the trainer are actually outside the field >> in about 20 ft or so facing the wrong direction and there is no input. So at least we can agree that no matter what protocol you're

using, you cannot prepare through art plus the dog not to go after the lore. At this point, >> right? >> When you leave it to its own instincts, it's just not going to happen. It was a 100% success rate. I mean more than highly effective and these are the welfare concerns and I have I mean I have all the dogs I mean I I have filmed the whole study I just cannot you know I mean maybe I can because [snorts] uh you know I I didn't film it hiding or anything. It was you know part of the agreement that we were doing. Um but it is very confusing when when somebody say I I have a better protocol. This was done incorrectly. It's like okay well you can have a toy. The interesting part is we we we had a dog. I it was actually that German Shepherd that was playing with the sticks and the guy was a little bit concerned later on. He was like, "Well, is he going to ever chase anything?" And my we can tell him to chase again and he will chase that thing too if you want. So we play with that for a moment and of course he's like okay if you give me green light of course I go and chase and then he was like I can stop him with the ball. I always stop him. He crazy about his ball. So we filmed that and that was you know totally on a side part not part of anything but it was just uh um you know one typical argument that people will say well the food was not high reward. No, it was they the there were I mean there were steaks, there were rotisserie I mean there was stuff there that you know they like they just cannot unnap from from what they they wanted to do. And it's the same with a toy. It will be the same with with once that mechanism is locked pretty much you cannot unnap. You cannot say well I have the same thing right here. Why don't you take that? It doesn't even work that way because the system is already locked. It's this is it. There is no other option in I have no other choices. I don't think of other choices. Any What do you What do you think? I mean, it was crazy to see. No, >> it was very interesting to see. Yeah, I remember I asked you the first time we were on the uh back then on my podcast how the dogs behaved. Um, and I remember you saying, "Well, one of them picked up a stick." And I was like, "Oh, that's cool." But seeing that is kind of very interesting. It's very interesting because it taps into the whole concept of avoidance and how it is not how it does not mean fear. Right. >> Right. >> One is so worried about that we're using fear and pain and you know they're two different things and I don't even think it's necessarily fear but it's a whole different story. Um and and and seeing how they kind of

they just it's I mean isn't it cool with dogs? It's kind of like you tell there is this this this this whole thing that's always that's in my mind is like you can tell a dog what to do with reinforcement. But the learning is just not complete until the dog can fully contextualize it, which then means what not to do. And what not to do doesn't mean you're traumatized because now you're worried about doing it. And such a strong like predation is such a big behavior for dogs that may not be always the most dominant problem for pet dogs because most pet dogs probably not going to run off leash. But if they do, one of the riskiest ones, right, or one of the most dangerous ones, running in front of the car, you know, or like attacking some, right, >> some dog, >> the white fluffy dog that definitely going to get killed then. And and that's another one like I because of my background with you know working in San Rafael for like I don't know was five six years as a guide dog instructor but it [snorts] was back in the 90s where we actually were able to use aversif probably probably the most important part of the training was to teach the dog to avoid cars. But like in in in actual context that cars are you don't want to mess with >> right >> now once they flipped the the script and it's all forcefree I you know I don't know how forcefree it is >> because when I was working there we still had the public relations we still had to sell the program and we still had to explain how we do things and wasn't quite what we were doing. So from firsthand experience, I'm still very reluctant to believe that what they're talking because everybody wants to hear it, that's actually what is happening. Maybe that would be something for you or somebody to go on a tour and and see how they train because you can always even if they don't show you, you can always see if that can last in the long run. One thing that we were able to train at the time was the like you can drop me anywhere like it can be in San Rafael or it can be in Chinatown or Fisherman's Warf. I mean, just drop me from the bus with my dog blindfolded and I will find my way out and I will I will absolutely function just like a normal person because of how how highly trained the dogs were. Today they are not trained that way. They are not this is really not possible. They're basically training one or two routes that the dog kind of memorizes. It's like, okay, from here to the grocery store or to the bank or, you know, it's a very patterned kind of training. It's not a let's go and generalize that there are curbs and there are carbs and cars and there are trees that hang low and so on.

What we had to do is we had to teach the dogs to respect car. So they had to make a contact with the car in a very controlled setting to where I'm telling the dog go and another instructor comes with the car and basically kind of blocks and pushes a little bit the dog to where the dog is like okay this is I I have to respect that car. We're not talking chasing the dog with a car. That let me make this clear. But there is a a a definitely an aversive experience. >> Yeah. >> So that is extremely valuable because when you're blind, you have to say go and the dog will go. Unless there are cars coming, then he's like, I'm not messing with the cars. >> Mhm. >> Now, when the the the modern style of training is basically we're not saying go if we know that they are cars. It sounds very logical, but the dog never really learns. The dog never ever really learns that cars are something you don't want to run into from from their own experience. They're like, "Okay, I I will, you know, tell you to wait and I will reward you for waiting and then I tell you to go." Blind people typically rely on like if you have a blind PO person that also have a little bit more than average hearing loss, they will never have a guide dog because they have to like they have to have a pretty decent sense of orientation and hearing to know where to go. But even then we took the chance to say hey I can I may not hear the car and I can tell you to go and if there is a car you know better not to go. Now especially having the you know Teslas and all these electric cars >> the person cannot hear the car. They can very likely say go and the dog will absolutely go 100% because why would they not? They have never put two and two together, >> right? >> And and that's um you know that's a big downfall on on force free because it doesn't a lot of times it doesn't it it kind of makes the curve and avoids the issue. However, the dog never understands that this is just a bad idea. In case I have to deal with it, in case I'm faced with it, I would be I would never have a clue that this is a bad thing. So, we're just hoping that >> they will deflect and and and follow something else. And and another one was with the with the Clive study. I know if somebody sees this they would still say I know that they will still say well yeah they look happy but who knows what's happening they should be there should be cortisol test and there should be >> you know they they are for sure deep inside they're traumatized and it will show we need science to tell us that it's like no you're looking in a a dog that wants to play that's bored to death

you don't need the test you don't need the science. If if we going that far that we need science in this that this is it's becoming very problematic. That's exactly one of those things, right? Like where they kind of come up with things like like whenever we say, "Well, there are so many dogs that like I you say I can show you my dog and you tell me does the dog look traumatized, >> right?" >> And we say, "Well, you can't always see it." And the trauma sits deep and then read the book book, the body keeps the score. And I'm like, "Here we go again." It's like all the studies that where it's okay to read the body language and say they look stressed, that's what you're going to use to make the claim that the welfare is compromised. But when you see a dog that doesn't look stressed, then we say we can't rely on body language. So that by by itself is already ridiculous. But like you said, >> if we can't even use what we see with our eyes that is rooted not just seeing a dog for the very first time, but in the experience of like I know this dog or the experience of like I know a playful dog. If we can't use that as valuable or acceptable data like then then what's the point of any of this? Like where are we going with that? >> Right? >> That makes no sense. There was a um you know the one pessimistic optimistic dog study I'm actually doing hopefully I'm having her on a podcast Anna Katarina Vieira de Castro I know it's a lot of names she she's from Portugal and and she's actually a dog trainer and it's pretty good dog trainer I've never talked to her so I'm really really looking forward to talk to her she knows exactly my position and she's is probably the only not probably she's by without a doubt the only canine scientist that was willing to come and talk about docs with me >> and that's going to happen Wednesday and hopefully it happens hopefully you know it happens >> but uh um the pessimistic optimistic test I mean the one the so so there is the you know for anybody that doesn't know kind I'm going to butcher it just for the sake of, you know, not not going through the whole thing because we're going to have a whole podcast on this, but six different training schools in Portugal in one town and they divide them on aversives and for three and the aversives basically lump anything from yelling and pinching to leash to just just like a chaos pretty much. But forget about that. There is a uh uh the the actual test is there are food dishes in a certain distance like it's 20 m or whatever. One is full, one is empty and then there's some rotation and then they measure the time how [snorts] long it takes for the

dog when you say go to go to the dish. The dogs that were in the aversive group showed like from 0.5 to a second slower than the other group. And therefore we came up with the conclusion that they're pessimistic. And that whole pessimistic optimistic that comes from humans. I mean that was a an actual real thing but it's a very different I mean totally different thing. And I I give her credit for the the creativity and trying to to to do it like this. However, going by 0.5 or 1 second late to go to the dish and come up with those conclusions that they are pessimistic and not acknowledge this playful dogs in Clive study and saying that you you actually need a scientific test to to dig deep to find out if they're really stressed because you wouldn't know otherwise. That's kind of the divide we are in. >> Yeah. and and her studies are, you know, I mean, they're one of the I mean she she's, you know, the other one she has is the um carrots and sticks, >> which is again how we were talking earlier, you mentioned the clickbait titles, you know, is like, okay, of course, like what you going to do, the red pill or the blue pill? And yeah, I I cannot wait to to talk to her. Um, simply because she's not just scientist, but she's trainer. She does obedience on a serious level, but she's very familiar also with IGP because that's how I I didn't even think I will be able to ever I just was talking to a friend of mine in Portugal that's a IGP trainer and I was like, "Oh, I just realized that that uh researcher, she's in Portugal. Maybe you can talk to her." And he's like, "Dude, I know her. she's really cool. I'm like, well, can you try? And and that's how it happened. So really looking forward to that because I think it will be much interesting conversation to talk about kind of kind of like you but on the other side of things. But who knows if she's on the other side even? I don't know. Um, from the little that we have conversed so far, um, she seems very logical and reasonable. Um, but it it it really, you know, it makes a difference when you you're doing studies, but you're also going out there and training dogs. And on top of that, I mean, I'm not I know I'm giving all this away as my strategies, but um our podcast not going to come out before Wednesday. So, I will, you know, I will have the chance to talk to her. But she's [snorts] also uh from what I know uh very into climbing herself. You know there is challenges, there is adversity, there is you know there is a reason why you are back on the wall after you fell down and you're bleeding and you know so it can be interesting. >> Um but but it it's sometime the studies like we just put so

much emphasis on the studies of six dogs or 20 dogs or just in this one part of one country in one town what they're doing and we take it as we just put it across the so that's what everybody else is doing therefore it's not good >> right right that's a problem the the whole like so many words in the in the in the dog training world science-based dog training relationship based stock training, enrichment, all of these things have been diluted that they became meaningless because it's almost like we lost the ability to to dig deeper and and like a real scientist question like could the opposite be true too and why? And then the whole chip thing and and and >> like I can it's if you have read enough comments that are very long, you know which ones are chip and which ones are not and like makes everyone so superficially throw words around that you know like I can tell that like if you if you not not to say that I'm the expert in this, right? But I'm reading so much about that stuff that um a lot of things kind of fall together and make more sense as you read more on on the new biology and new science of something. But then people throw out words like the amydala and the periquoded brain. I'm pretty sure that none of them are actually [laughter] really understand what they're talking about >> because if you did, you probably wouldn't say it that way um to make such a strong point about something because if we know one thing then nothing is just straightforward in the brain ever like um it just doesn't work like that and and and yes the nuances in here and there like they give you data but it's not that you're like oh yeah the the liyic system lit lit up and that means we are in a fearful state or something right that's just That's just not true. And that's the conversations that we currently have on social media. And you could say, "Oh, well, I don't care about social media." But unfortunately, we do have to care about social media. It's not anymore. You just ignore it because social media and what is being taught there is used to write policies and to >> Oh, even the AIs are using it. >> I mean, right? I mean, you ask a question and and all of a sudden you have, >> you know, all the comments or articles from hardcore force free trainers as >> this is this is why and I can give you 20 of those and they're very legit. And I'm like, no, they're not. >> Yeah. Yes. And that's that's that's dangerous. I read a quote yesterday somewhere or not a quote but someone I said he heard someone say in three years or so the internet will be completely useless because of the amount of misinformation taking over.

>> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I did too. I think this can very likely happen. >> I think this can very very likely happen. >> But for right now for right now at le I mean I'm sure this is just happens to everybody. I don't think Chipetip praises me and blows smoke up my ass only. Um it's it's a it's very it's so dangerous because you know and and even when you say stop this and it's like okay I stop they they don't know don't want to stop they don't even know how to stop or whatever but they are just they are trying they're doing everything they can to please you. >> I mean everything they can. And when you have somebody that doesn't have the knowledge and ask the question that kind of prompts the answer that they are looking from and CHP gives them that answer. Now they feel extremely powerful because even the AI agrees with me, >> right? >> And how do you argue on that one now? >> Right? And then the AI phrases it in the way that sounds super intelligent and super convincing and powerful and it's like yep that makes total like confirmation bias 101 right and then copy paste into Facebook or social media anywhere >> and there we go right and then I was like applauding then it's like yep yep yep so true >> and it happens on both sides and it's not like >> 100%. So like we're deviating from having like truthful conversations and I'm like now even appreciating people that say like you know I train the way I train not because science says so or just because that's the way I train. I'm like good for you you know like this is like honest and then the way it works for you and that's not you don't need to pull in science to try to validate anything right. Sometimes the experience >> is what you what you do. >> Experience is yeah there is just nothing nothing uh uh substitutes experience. Um but maybe maybe the chip and all of them. Do you think one day they will actually just kind of stomp their key like something just comes on your keyboard and says no that's what it is and that's what we know so far. Maybe in the future maybe whatever but for right now that's really what and and really give the the answers regardless of you liking it or not. Do you think that's going to happen soon or is it ever going to happen? >> I I [snorts] I don't know because I mean we've always there's always been this confirmation bias in everything we do. like everything is kind of driven by we try to be some of us try to be as objective as possible but like there's always going to be a little more >> well it's also like I can't help it but think that way >> so the I think AI would have to become like so independent of certain inputs that it can kind of make that judgment

and you know I wouldn't be surprised that that was impossible um >> but then would the AI even have the interest to do that cuz you know >> it's like no I keep my humans and here is a little for you for you >> like oh you want to hear yeah sure you're right you're brilliant you're genius oh you too >> right >> I mean yeah you got it wrong but but very good thinking and and you're still right >> Jesus Christ it's frustrating [laughter] >> yeah yeah I don't know where this is going but it's right now it's like it be like it's it's at the point where I get really frustrated with with like the the chat GPT or the AI responses and it's not to say not to use it, right? I mean like everyone says that just use it the right way. Am I using it to correct my my grammar? >> Yeah. Um, but we cannot fact check. We cannot fact check check with AI or you cannot have CHPT necessarily give you facts and not fact check yourself or have critical thinking lost because that will get you into into like I tried it. I tried it and I got so frustrated. It's like no, you're first free. But we are like on the other side like you got to take this from a different approach. And it comes back from like twisting my words just to say something that just wasn't true. I'm like, "Huh, this is interesting." >> Like if you don't have the ability to question that critically, you take it for what it is. And the pet owners, they're influenced so massively by this narrative, >> right? and and the very first thing they're gonna it's going to come out on their screen clearly. We know what's going to come out on their screen. >> Yeah. >> I I it's a hard one cuz I mean we all use it and we all trying to learn about other stuff that we don't know about. So AI is just beautiful platform but then man I I get this fear like when I when I am familiar with the the subject the topic I'm discussing with AI I can I can okay you you're just going off just here and and I can I can correct certain things but if I'm trying to learn about something that I have no idea and I get whatever it comes on the string. >> Yeah, you believe it. >> As much as I want to believe it, I actually starting to be very reluctant simply because I know how it functions in the subjects that I'm very comfortable with. >> Yeah, >> it's a but it's a great tool. I mean it's in a lot of ways it's it you know just has to be used with caution and and maybe one day who knows but then if it gets that good which it will then it's like you humans just I'll I'll >> entertain you for a little longer and then we just don't need you no more maybe who knows right >> exactly [laughter] So, what are you what are you having?

What's coming? What what are you doing in your world? Anything interesting? >> I'm going to Australia in February. So, I'm excited about that >> for a seminar in Melbourne and Sydney and um some other some other seminars here and there. Um, and funny enough, I will I will double it down on certain content that I'm uh doing, especially also on YouTube, I think, >> more than ever. It's it's going to be important to to not shut up basically. >> Yes. No, this is it. It is very very important and I think all all of us are very grateful that you and and the few people that are, you know, taking that stand, you know, to to just say, well, maybe maybe it's not quite like that, you know, maybe we need to rethink certain things. I think it's it's it's a fresh air that's very much needed. What about your um you have the online uh um school or what do you call it the >> Helix? >> Yeah. Tell us about this. >> Um so it runs in similar to your program. So it runs three times a year and >> I call it triple helix because instead of the double helix like DN a double helix it's the in how how neurobiology of behavior ethology like the species dog genetics and then our handling how they all intertwine. So instead of just looking from a very very like operant conditioning behavior dog yeah everything influences the dog and understanding the fundamentals there and you know you ever look a little bit into the anatomy neuro anatomy the brain and stuff and some areas that are I like people to have at least have a little bit of an understanding of when they hear amygdala it's not about fear it's some like it is fear involved, but it's not just about fear, right? To get a little bit of a a little bit of a of a way to talk about this in a in a little bit better way. And then we'll address aggression and fear and anxiety, in particular, anxiety because it's something in relation to resilience and stress is something that I'm really passionate about addressing in general. And uh yeah, we'll go through like some some case studies and mainly the science behind it. And then in the last module we also debunk the dog training the dog training papers a little bit and give some language around this in a better way. So it's been it's been pretty fun. It ran three times so far and and you know I think the feedback I get a lot is kind of like for those who are already like balanced trainers they now have a better way of talking about things. they don't feel like they have they don't feel like pushed into the defensive as much as they're now a little bit more offensive in their way they think about it >> and communicate it. And then there's

some that are maybe against the tools per se but not about the concept of boundaries and rules and they tap tip their toes into that field of training and stuff. So and and especially in other countries so pretty much almost all not all continents I know four continents and I don't know how many countries because it's online so can actually scale >> and provide that that that kind of education so >> the curiosity and ambition to learn that stuff >> and you know it's like it's not it's not kindergarten stuff like I was not holding back this is like graduate level PhD level at some point and they can go back to it whenever. But like I I'll challenge them. >> But you kind of reerate it for them in a in a way that they can grasp the the concepts. Right. And that's that's what it takes cuz like >> right >> again I I don't have the PhD like I even now I don't consider myself like by no means an expert of understanding how to read a study but it took me a long time to to really get a grasp of of you know I mean I started just like everybody else you read the abstract and the conclusion and you think you got it. And it's like, no. [laughter] Like, it's the last thing you need to do. [snorts] Actually, >> it's really the last thing you need to do. [laughter] >> That's true. That's true. >> How How are you doing on time? like I the reason I'm asking is because uh you know when I got convinced to do my school I I was going to write I I I basically had two books ready to to be published and then somebody that you know was doing had the model of of this kind of schools and stuff in a different areas not nothing to do with dog training and they were like no no you know, I can really help you do this and and you're going to have free time. I mean, imagine how much free time you're going to have. And I was so I mean, I bit debate. There is no free time. I don't complain. I mean, because you know like every day there is something that happens or I think of that I'm like I need to sit and this is going into the course. There is no question this is going into the course but the the fairy tale of having free time more free time it just didn't work. So I don't know what what your goal is but but that may not be. [laughter] >> Yeah. So, like the the concept of free time, I kind of said bye to that like a long time ago. And I just wrote an email about this actually yesterday because, you know, I don't know if this happens, but to you, but sometimes I'm like, what did I do before I had my business and dogs? Like, I must have had so much free time. What was I doing? And I don't remember being bored back then. I'm pretty sure I was still living in New

York City. I was doing all kinds of things. So, I was busy regardless. So, the busyiness never changes, right? And if you're going to go for >> doing something in order to have more free time, this will be filled up in like no time. Um what I do do though because I do care a lot about about the education of of science and understanding fundamentals of that. Um, I do have I I I have theme days and it doesn't always work, but I do have theme days where I put like one one week a day block everything and all I do is like read things that I it's piling up on my desk and like all these things and the books I buy and the papers I print out and I never get to it because when I have a little bit of time then it's not enough to really dig in or I'm too tired to think that way. So I have to have theme days where I don't do anything but this. And this has helped this has helped a lot to kind of push um basically my own urge of like learning more about things forward otherwise. >> Yeah. >> Things would because there's always something else that is more urgent than reading unfortunately. >> I know you do running. Do you get I mean how do you stop your thoughts when you're running? There isn't I'll tell you this is the craziest thing and I wish that I was in the running. I I mean I used to run but I I I would rather swim. So I go I I mean I don't go I have a swimming pool in my house so I swim like regularly and like really really swim. However, the moment I start swimming, bing and there is this brilliant idea and now I have set the timer. Now I have the discipline to to actually do what I'm supposed to do and that is I need to swim and I need to make a certain time and so on. [snorts] So I start repeating the thought over and over as I'm swimming. I'm like I cannot forget this. I cannot forget this. I cannot forget this. And eventually, of course, the way our brain works, you forget it. And every once in a while, I get so mad at myself, but I come out of the pool and I quickly type something and they go back, but then I consider it really like cheating, like just not being So, how do you do with the running? Like, what happens? >> I mean, it's hilarious because I'm It's like exactly the same. It's [laughter] like exactly the same like because there is not a real distraction other than like running like I'm I keep thinking about things and then it just comes one after the other >> and they're good ones, right? That's where the the best thoughts go. >> Always the best ones that you like try to figure out for so long. And just like you, as soon as the the run stops, I'm like pulling out my phone. I should probably focus on like hydrating or

whatn not and pulling out my phone and [laughter] jotting down what I think about. >> It's I think you have to be in pain enough to forget thinking or like to not think and I haven't really reached >> like in my very long runs at some point. Yes, I will not think anymore because I'm like in pain or whatever. Um, but at the early stages like no there's >> at least when you're running you have you have the scenery you have like you know >> when you're swimming you're just listening to your breath and and there is nothing really happening it's you and your brain and it's like ah >> yeah yes yes it's I don't know that there's nothing I can do about like I just I know people say like when you run you stop thinking about things and that does happen every now and then but most of the time it because it's like it's my brain is like woohoo [laughter] now we are down to business like finally you're not doing anything else right >> and that's that's kind of what uh you know like the I guess some of the people that I follow on on social media and whatnot you know they they always say like your your best ideas best thoughts they they always come in your day off in your vacation in your you need to kind of you know somehow flip the switch and and then you become more productive. Um but it's a challenging one. >> Yeah. Yes, it's true. >> Um so how how old is your dog when when I mean of course you're going to go through titles and stuff, right? I mean, >> yes, that's the plan. So, he's nine months, a little over nine months now. >> Okay. >> Um, starting to be in his teenager phase where he has a lot more to say about things uh and opinions. Um, but yeah, training is is going is going well. Like again, it's still in the in the baby shoes and stuff and learning about that. Um, Michael keeps telling me like we're gonna start the object guard soon and it's like oh like >> yeah I don't really know yet what that means but I will find out very soon I suppose and >> it's very cool. >> Yeah it's >> I mean we're going to be seeing each other because again I mean I'm a little bit ahead of you but uh my wife her dog is maybe what three four months older than yours just about kind of on the same level I would say. So it's going to be cool. >> Yeah. Me and Michael always talk to to get together and it hasn't happened since very long time but every time we've trained together it's been so cool. Um, >> yeah. >> So, who knows? Maybe we will be coming your way or or we organize something here. That would be >> either way we're gonna, you know, stick to the sport and it's going to be cool to >> Yeah. >> to see each other actually not talking

about science and our plus, you know, just have fun with the dogs because >> that's really what's >> right. >> And very cool, Melanie. Thank you. I think this was uh hopefully people liked it. I don't know. I I'll I have to kind of think um if I I pause the videos or or I don't cuz it's going to create create a storm for sure. And and and you know what is the the the sad part of this is that no matter what you see when you have the conviction to disprove it you will disprove it >> right >> and then it's like okay what how how do we talk to each other >> right? Yeah, that's very unfortunate because then it's like that you you then the goal is not anymore to actually find the solution. There's no like we kind of come together solution. It's really just you want to be right. That's >> Yeah. Yeah. >> The only goal you have and it's a very powerful emotion wanting to be right. >> Well, I think this was fun. >> Yes. Yes. Thank you for having me. Hopefully hopefully people like it and >> I'm sure we're [snorts] going to be talking more about other things. Maybe we just talk sometimes just pure training and forget anything else and just have fun about training, you know, cuz >> yeah, that would be cool. >> I think people like to hear just about training and that that's it gets that conversation is so saturated and it doesn't go anywhere kind of stalled that that is like becoming But somehow people still like to listen to it. So we keep talking. We still keep talking and we still, >> you know, provide the the arguments that we have. And maybe maybe one day there will be people that are willing to sit down and have like a panel of discussion and maybe two and we just talk about this stuff. Wishful thinking. I know that not happening, but it would be great. >> I I think you know how like in the bigger scheme of things, you know, there's this pendulum that swings to one extreme >> and now it's going to the other extreme, which is the whole forcefree movement. There will be a change like this is just history. There will be a change back into either the middle or the other extreme. >> Um just like with politics, right? It's like always the same. So this movement will just like everything else will have some sort of downfall if you will. [laughter] So and and I think I think the seed has been planted. I mean I obviously am exposed to a lot of things that kind of agree with what I say but I do think that there's a seed planted in a lot of people's mind. >> I agree with you on this. I I I definitely agree with you on this. I think uh I think because of few people the the argument that we have becomes more articulated and and you know

hard to hard to twist it. Not that it's not possible to twist it but it's much harder to twist it. >> So I I agree with you. Well, thank you again and um >> I'll be I'll be talking to you because I can even give this away because nobody will know anyway, but you are >> uh one of my uh guest speakers uh for my annual >> uh event here. So, that's going to be super cool. >> Yeah. >> Um cool. Nice talking. Super conversation. >> Yes. Thank you so much for having me and we'll talk soon next week. Yes. Take care. [music] [music]