E214: 바바라 로이드(Barbara Lloyd) - 애견 공원 가기

And I think it's the misunderstanding of, uh, pet people on what social, on what socialization is and what it'll do. And I think that's the biggest bone of contention is, or misunderstanding because oftentimes I'll have people contact me and they'll say, I have a reactive dog or I have an aggressive dog. Um, I have a fearful dog. And can you help me work with the dog? And I say, oh, absolutely. You know, and I tell them what the format is going to be, which is always one-on-one work. Right. And they say, but you don't understand. My dog is reactive. It needs to be around other dogs. So I'll just go somewhere else. And, you know, they're not, they're not even open to the concept of listening to the rationale of every time the dog has a reaction, it reinforces the behavior, right? The unwanted behavior. And, you know, um, some people do though. Some people are very good and they say, well, what, what, what should I do? And I explained to them the process that it really has nothing to do with other dogs for a long, long time. And that I will teach them management techniques for when they run into a jam. But really in the beginning, what we want to do is we want to build up that, the relationship between the dog and the person. And introduce a lot of joy into the dog's life. And if going to the dog park is not associated with joy, if it's associated with fear, reactivity, um, uncertainty, even just over arousal. I mean, because dogs that are over aroused are not having fun either. Do you know what I mean? Like they, they really aren't. So it's kind of, that's where the, I think some of the biggest misunderstandings come in is that you don't take a dog that's prone to over arousal or a dog that's fearful or a dog that's reactive or a dog that's slightly dog aggressive or people aggressive. Those are not the dogs for the dog park. The dogs for the dog park are pretty much the happy go lucky dogs that already have good social skills. So that's, so that's one thing that I think between trainers and the pet population, there's a big miscommunication about that. And as trainers, oftentimes we'll just kind of say in a blurb, like, I know I'm so guilty of it too. Whatever you think, don't take your dog to the dog park. You know, and especially if it's a young, a young puppy, you know, like a young happy go lucky dog. And I, I tell them, you know, if you don't want to take your puppy to our, where I live to the dog parks, because they're just oversized school grounds. And there's no calibration. So therefore, all the puppies are with all the bait, all the older dogs and all the little dogs are with everybody too.

So there's no separation between small dog, puppy, big dog, and that kind of a dynamic. So, so I am guilty, I think, of not explaining things properly sometimes to people. So I'm probably part of the problem as well. Aw. That said, I know you were talking about this a little bit on Facebook the other day and kind of put up a post about, you know, kind of some basic etiquette that people can use to, you know, make the experience better for everybody. So do you want to kind of share those tips, you know, what people who do want to take their pups to play can do to maybe set them up for success? Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, it was really one of those things that when I wrote that post, you know, when I, and I thought, oh, and it was prompted by a picture that I saw. And the picture was taken in a dog park. And it looked like it was kind of like a reunion of a specific breed of dog. And there was a path. And there was all these dogs in the middle of the path. And there was a bunch of people standing around, like just standing totally static. Nobody was moving. Everybody was just watching their dogs. And I thought, you know what, Barbara Lloyd, you might not agree with dog parks because you're, because of the things that can happen in them. But there's a lot of people that don't have the options that I have for exercising my dog. And their only option is a dog park. So why don't, instead of just condemning it, why don't you just post something that tells people what they can do? So that was why I did the post in the first place. I was trying to be nice and not judgmental. So, yeah, I was trying not to be a dog trainer. I was actually just trying to be a good community, you know, a good community person. And hope that if I can give people these three things, that maybe it's going to keep them and their dogs safer. So, it was three simple things. The first one is, you know, don't take toys into the dog park because they're a source of potential conflict. And again, I want to qualify that by saying that the size of the dog park matters and where I live and in most of the places that I've been, they're very small dog parks. So, by introducing a toy, what ends up happening is, you could have maybe five dogs, maybe five dogs that are interested in that swing ball. Well, that can be a recipe for disaster, right? It can start a dog fight. And so, just avoid the whole thing. Don't take the toy, right? And the other thing, too, that I found, because, I mean, I've periodically gone to the dog park and I have dogs that like to retrieve, right? Yeah. And they have pretty good play drive.

So, we go to the dog park and somebody's got a toy and they throw the darn thing. And then my dog, you know, because of the amount of exercise, the real exercise my dog gets, she can outrun anybody. So, she's at the ball first and then she brings it to me and I give it back to the handler. And then, you know, sometimes the handlers get really upset and they say, you know, your dog took my dog's toy and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then there's that element of human conflict as well, right? And so, just to avoid conflict between dogs, conflict between handlers, don't take the toy. If you want to play ball with your dog, go to a playground or go to a fenced-in tennis court. Go somewhere else. Go to a ball diamond that's fenced-in. Like all of our ball diamonds are mostly fenced-in. And if you can take your dog to a dog park, you can take your dog to a partially fenced-in ball diamond and they're not going to run away if they're ball motivated. So, that was my first thing was, please don't take toys because they're going to become community toys real quick and it could cause a dog fight. So, that was that one. Now, the next one, do not take food into the dog park because, of course, this, again, is another big deal. You get a dog that's slightly food aggressive and you can have a fight on your hands. And the other thing is, is that I'm not saying that everybody that takes food into the dog park is doing this, but I've also seen a lot of it where somebody's taking food into the dog park and they love dogs. And they hand out treats willy-nilly to everybody's dogs. And, well, yeah, that's not good, right? Because then, again, you can start getting that circling, which can cause a dog fight. Or, just from the health standard of the dog, what if the dog is allergic to whatever it is that that person is handing out, right? Like my little dog, he can suffer from pancreatitis if he gets something with too much fat in it and he's only eight pounds. So, a normal dog treat, if it's like a biscuit, that's got way too much fat content for him and that'll set him off on pancreatitis. So, that was one of the other things is please don't take food into the dog park because it's probably going to cause a dog fight or potentially it could and these things can be avoided. Or it could cause some kind of a reaction in a dog. And some people, honestly, like, I'm not an uptight person, but I really don't want a stranger feeding my dog either. Do you know what I mean? I just don't think that's a good precedent for dogs.

I think that when dogs go to the dog park, I mean, I think it's good if they go and they play with other dogs and they're social like that. But at the end of the day, you know, I think it's really my responsibility whether or not I want to give my dog something, not a stranger's. So, no food in a dog park because of aggression. That's number one. Number three. This is a big one too. And again, it all comes down to what can possibly happen and avoiding a bad situation. So, the third thing that I recommend is keep moving. Don't stand around in the middle. Don't pull by the gate. Don't stand around and visit. If you want to go there and meet somebody and you want to visit with them, walk with them. Because if you're in constant motion, the dogs aren't going to pool in one little area and get stuck in that area. And again, there's a huge potential for conflict, right? Because you get all these hands that are standing around. And some dogs might be owner possessive. They're not truly aggressive. You know what I mean? But they might be owner possessive. So, another dog goes over to say hi. And they're all in this little pressure cooker, right? Because nobody's moving. And the dog has a reaction. And then that could spark another thing. So, keep moving. I mean, I always look at it as if you're going to the dog park, you should be going to still interact with your dog, except that it can be off leash. So, you don't stand around. You don't go to the dog park to stand around and visit. Go to the dog park to go walk your dog and stay active. So, that is another great big deal. And I mean, I understand some people maybe can't walk on the terrain or something like that. And those are truly the exceptions. I'm not going to say, well, then don't go to the dog park. But for those of us that are more than able-bodied and willing to walk, just keep moving. It's better for the dogs. It's better for you. Gives your dog a focus. It also teaches your dog to come and find you instead of you always hunting down your dog. So, those were kind of my three things that I put in that post. And that post, like, it blew up. I was just, I was shocked. Because, you know, when I wrote it, you know, I was thinking about the community that I live in and how small the dog parks are. So, it's really, you know, writing it for that. And then it got picked up. Like, I write for the Rottweiler, Total Rottweiler magazine. So, it got picked up by that. And then it exploded from there and just went everywhere. And I was really surprised. And I thought, wow, I guess maybe this really does need to be talked about.

That I'm not the only one that feels like this. And I'm not the only one that thinks that, you know, maybe this information needs to get out. So, then after I did, after the post came out, City Hall contacted me here in Regina and said, you know, we're going to have two dog park events on a weekend coming up. Could you please come and talk about that post that you wrote and why it's important that these rules be adhered to? So, I said, absolutely. I mean, for sure I'll do that. So, it really went so much farther than I anticipated. I really didn't expect it. Yeah. And so many people were grateful. You know, like a lot of the comments that I got were people saying, you know, thank you for bringing that up. Because they've had experiences in dog parks that could have been so much better. If, you know, these things had been adhered to. So, so it was good. I was really happy. So, then, you know, when you and I connected about this podcast, I thought that's great. I think it's a wonderful topic. Yeah. Yeah. It's an important thing to have a conversation about for sure. You started to get into this a little bit with your last answer when you're talking about moving around. But I absolutely think a lot of people are going to hear what you just said and go, but Barbara, if I don't have toys, I don't have food. What if my dog won't come to me when it's time to head home? Well, isn't that just the question of the day? So, you know what you do? You think like a trainer, right? You prep the dog. You work on the dog's recall so that the dog will actually come to you. And you start working on delayed reinforcement. And so what that means, delayed reinforcement. So, for listeners, I don't know what that means. What that means is the dog understands it's going to do a behavior like come to you, but it's not going to get paid until a little bit later, like maybe 10 seconds later. And that's what's going to buy you the time to get the leash on and walk to your car. Because if you make a practice of calling your dog, like even in the backyard, right? So you call your dog, your dog comes, you give it a few treats, you put the leash on, you give it a few treats, you walk to your car and it gets a jackpot of steak. Or whatever its favorite food is. Cat food. Cat food's another great one. Dogs love cat food, right? Canned cat food. Oh, my God. It's like puppy crack. So, I mean, if you train the dog that this is going to be the process, and if you only allow the dog to have a drink of water back at your vehicle as well, that's the resource, right? The dog is going to be way more likely to come to you.

But that's a training, that is a training issue. Not a, you know, not, and it shouldn't be bleeding over into the dog park. You shouldn't have to have that on you in order for your dog to come to you. Because if you aren't valuable enough to your dog, maybe you shouldn't be in the dog park. And I know that sounds harsh, but if you aren't valuable enough to your dog that it's going to come to you, you really need to work on that recall, which is somebody else's talk. I'm sure. You know, but what do you think, like, Melissa? Like, honestly, you know, like, I mean, does that sound harsh or does that sound, like, realistic? No, that sounds pretty realistic to me. Good. You have to build, yeah. Yeah. I like your idea, too, about, you know, practicing the exact scenario at home so that the dog knows when they get back to the car, they get that jackpot. So. Absolutely. I mean, like, that is really the essence of training that I think that oftentimes gets overlooked in the fact that people believe that the training is going to occur when you need the behavior. But the training has to occur way before so that when you do need the behavior, it's there and it's available, right? Right. And, you know, for us people who train dogs all the time, I get a charge out of that stuff, right? Like, I mean, I love the training aspect of it. And I know that a lot of handlers, they want to go and they want to do the fun things, but they don't want to do the mundane little things like that. But it's those mundane little things. You know, you call the dog, you give it a few treats, you put the leash on, you give it a few treats, take it to the car, jackpot. You know, I mean, those are all the little things that are going to make everything else so much easier. And at the end of the day, you're going to allow that dog to have the freedom that you want it to have. And you can trust your dog. You know. So I think that I think that it's a realistic expectation to expect people to work on those things before they get to the dog park, you know. Right. It totally makes sense to me. Good. I'm glad to hear it. Yay! I have an advocate. So to kind of go back to one of the other things that we were talking about earlier, right, about kind of what dog maybe is a good fit or is going to have fun at the dog park. I know that, you know, most strangers would probably say some dogs just aren't going to enjoy it, even if their owner kind of had good intentions.

So do you have any tips or any thoughts on how people can tell if maybe their dog is one of those that might enjoy doggy playtime and maybe one of those dogs who maybe wouldn't so much enjoy it? Absolutely. I think that to be to give a stereotypical and like kind of the perfect dog park dog is something like and not saying these are the only ones, but just to give to give people a mental or a visual aspect is just a goofy, happy go lucky. Um, Labrador Retriever or Golden Retriever that loves everybody and everything, but doesn't jump up. That's the other thing. You better train your dog not to jump up when you go, if you're going to take it to the dog park, because lots of people get upset about that. But, but, you know, kind of so if you if you start from that premise, right, and that can go to any dog. I mean, it can be German Shepherds, it can be Rottweilers, it can be herding dogs, it can be sighthounds. Um, but I'm going to tell you as well is that taking a sighthound to a dog park. Um, of course, they like to chase, right? That's their deal. They like and herding dogs, they like to chase. So when you get a mixed group of dogs, you know, I mean, you can be really, really lucky if there are dogs like the herding dogs or the sighthounds that like to chase and the dogs that like to be chased, right? Um, and when you get that mixed, that's an absolutely wonderful thing. But when you get a dog who's frightened, and it's running because it's frightened, and you get a toe of sighthounds and herding dogs chasing it. That's not so good for that dog. You know, so you have to have a dog that you need a dog that speaks dog really, really well, and can make educated decisions. Now, one of the things that I always tell my clients about, okay, so sometimes you don't know something's going to happen, right? And something might scare your dog. So being in the dog park to scare the dog, and you didn't expect it, right? You just didn't expect that to happen. And so what I teach my dogs is to come between my legs. You know, we call it peekaboo as a trick. Some people call it middle, you know, but basically what it is, is the dog comes between your legs. So I teach all my dogs that, and I teach all my clients, client dogs that as well. Because in a frightful situation, if you've trained that behavior and the dog enjoys that behavior, it's the perfect cover. Because your legs are on either side of that dog. Its back is covered because it can be up against your legs. And that can be a real life-saving thing, right?

So that you're not even worried about the dog running off, because if it's afraid, because if it's afraid, it's going to come run to you and come between your legs. And you're going to save it, right? You're going to protect it. So I think that that's, you know, and then if that's your dog, and you're like, oh, that didn't work out so good at the dog park. Well, then don't take it, because it's supposed to be a fun place, right? And if it's not fun for the dog, why are you going? Why would you take the dog there? You know, it's kind of like, for myself when I was growing up, you know, all the kids, every kid I went to school with, everybody I knew loved hot dogs. They were a treat, right? Hot dogs and Kraft dinner. I hated hot dogs. I hated hot dogs. I just, I didn't like the taste. I didn't like the texture. And it didn't matter how much people would try to say, oh, you know, they're, they're, look how good they are, you know, try to entice, make them enticing to me. It was a punisher. If I ever had to eat a hot dog, if I was somewhere and I had to, it was a punisher. And for some dogs, going to the dog park is a punisher. And the other thing I think is, is that, you know, so I talked about kind of dogs that are, you know, afraid or maybe a little aggressive or reactive. And, you know, they shouldn't be in the dog park for good reason for their own mental health. But then there's dogs that are completely like over the top in love with life and everything and everybody. And that they fit into that arousal category, right? They're over aroused. And a dog that is that over aroused isn't having fun either. They might go to the dog park and run themselves crazy, but they're not having fun. And they're also probably upsetting a lot of other dogs because those typically are the dogs that don't take social cues from other dogs. You know, you'll see them. They're the ones that are going up and they're jumping on them. Or they're going into another dog's face, trying to bark at them just to get them to move because they want to play. And then the other dog is doing everything within its power, you know, it's kind of turning its head or it's trying to walk away. And it's doing all kinds of things to avoid any kind of conflict, but it does not want to play with that dog. But this over aroused dog that's lacking social skills doesn't understand that. So that's another dog that shouldn't be in the dog park either. So just because your dog loves everybody and everything, that doesn't mean that it's a green light either.

You need to have that dog understand social cues from other dogs, social cues from people. You know, like, I mean, not everybody that goes to the dog park wants to say hi to your dog. I mean, when I go to the dog, you know, I go to the dog park when I travel. That's usually when I do it because I don't know where else to go. And, you know, I mean, I'm going in the dog park to have quality time with my dog. And I mean, and if my dog wants to play with somebody, that's great. That's fabulous. But I'm not there hunting other people's dogs down to give them attention either. You know, but if a dog comes up to me, I'll give it attention if it's asking for it politely. So over aroused dogs can also very much so be the cause of a dog fight at a dog park. So those are kind of the things. Those are the dogs that shouldn't be in there. And the ones that should be in there are basically just the happy go lucky. Even if your dog doesn't enjoy playing with other dogs, but you want to go there and exercise your dog. But it's got good social skills and read social skills of other dogs. That's a great candidate. Right. So and then, of course, there's dogs that just love to play with everybody. And if they've had the opportunity in small doses to learn how to play appropriately and not bully other dogs or be bullied, they can be great candidates for dog parks. I mean, I think that there are a lot of dogs that are wonderful at dog parks. And I think that they work out really well for them. Okay. So once you are there, you have a good dog park appropriate dog. You know, what kind of interaction should we be watching for? What will a good dog dog play session look like versus maybe one where we should intervene before it kind of goes off the rails? Right. Okay. I think that's a really good question. I think that, you know, I mean, it makes a lot. A lot of people don't understand the whole butt sniffing ritual that goes on. And a lot of people think it's rude and they think that it's inappropriate because they're comparing that to a human standard. However, that's kind of how a dog will shake hands. Right. And most dogs accept that. And they think that that's a good thing. Now, when that goes too far is when the dog. Is doing the sniffing. And it's literally lifting the other dog's butt off the ground. You know, like it's really getting up in his junk, his or her junk. Right. And that's making them uncomfortable. Or if it's sniffing the butt of another dog and that other dog doesn't like it and turns around and says, hey, enough. Or walks away. And it's giving an appropriate social cue to the other dog.

I don't want you to do that. If that dog that's doing the sniffing doesn't walk away. You got to get out of there. You got to start moving. You got to get your dog out of there. Because then again, that's a situation where something can happen. And maybe the dog. It's not that the dog that was sniffing did anything wrong. But maybe the dog that's being sniffed has a sore back end. Maybe it's got compacted anal glands. Maybe it's arthritic. Maybe, you know, I mean, pain does weird things to people and animals. Right. So we have these reactions that are out of the norm. So that is one of the things that you need to watch for. It's when those greetings can go a little bit south. Even if when they start out appropriate. Now, the second greeting that can go south is. This is the over arousal greeting. Okay. We just talked about those dogs. The dogs that are way too over the top. When they go in to meet a dog. They go in and a lot of them will literally chest bump a dog. Or like they just slam into the dog. They have no concept of personal space. Or how to neutrally meet a dog. They just think that they're going to go in. And everybody's going to love them. And they're just going to be able to play. And of course, there's a lot of dogs right there. Like, whoa. Like, what? And then that can start a fight. Right. Because then the dog that got bumped into could say, well, hey, that was inappropriate. Bugger off. And then the over aroused dog says, no, no, no. You're going to play with me because I said so. And then maybe start barking in that dog's face. And then it escalates and we got a problem. So that's another thing. Like, it's not like, oh, look, isn't that great? It's like, oh, no, that's not so great. Like, that is not inappropriate greeting. So that's a greeting you got to be aware of. Now, another, yeah, another greeting is, you know, kind of, it's the standoff. You know, in two dogs. And there's a difference between the standoff, you know, like, I mean, oftentimes dogs will do a standoff. I see it often in herding and working dogs where they kind of do a standoff where they're, you know, maybe 20 feet apart or more. And they kind of look at each other. They drop their heads. And then they start running. And that can be a play thing. But their body language is different than when it's, I'm up to, when they're doing something aggressive. And the difference is, is that when they're, the herding dogs that I see do it, and mine included. You know, they're standing apart. They're, look, they drop their head. And their tail is neutral. Those are the defining factors. The head dropped and the tail neutral.

That tells you they're more in prey drive, play drive. The other side to that is, you can see how the exact same interaction. But really what it is, is tails are up and heads are straight up and the chests are forward. Right? Those are dogs that are like, are we ready to rumble? There could be a conflict there. And it has nothing to do with play. So, those, that's another distinct greeting interaction that you need to be aware of. So, look at the tail and look at the headset. Like, where is the head? Is the head above the body? Or is the head low between the shoulders? Generally, low between the shoulders means we're just, we're going to have a lot of fun here. So, and then another thing that is kind of like a red flag is when the dogs first meet. Not once they start playing. Like, sometimes once they start playing, they'll do this. But by then, we've already accepted one another as a playmate. So, it's not usually as big of a deal. But if it starts out like this, it can be a really big deal. And that's when you have the dog and they're saying hi. And then one totally puts its head and neck completely over top of the shoulders and the neck of the other dog. And gets stiff. And that is kind of, they're trying to figure out who's going to be the boss. And, you know, that just oftentimes doesn't end well, right? Because you can get two dogs. And sometimes they can go flying. The other dog says, I don't care. You can run the show. I don't care. But there's other dogs out there that are going to say, hey, hey, hey, hey. You're in my personal space and this is inappropriate. And they're going to, you know, give cues back. And then that original dog, maybe there's going to be a fight. So, if you see anything like that, don't grab your dog. Because, of course, you're adding energy. As soon as you go to grab your dog, you're adding energy in. And they're more likely to actually have a fight. But that's where, you know, your movement really comes in handy. Because, you know, you can be like, hey, come on. Clap your hands. Start running in the opposite direction. And get your dog away from that dog. And so, those are the things. And the other thing, too, that I think is really important to point out is, in any one of these interactions, how a dog interacts. Except for the over-aroused dogs. They just do it to everybody. But some of the other stuff is very dog-specific. So, that doesn't mean that, just because your dog is involved in an incident like that, that doesn't mean that they're not a good dog park candidate.

It just means that there's going to be some dogs that you need to be aware of that your dog is going to have that reaction to. So, that's, again, where the handler awareness comes in. And you're going in there. It's like taking your kid to a carnival. You don't take your kid, you don't take your eyes off. Right? You keep moving. And your main focus and your main priority is keeping an eye on your dog. Right? So, I think those are the big do's and don'ts of who should go in and who shouldn't. And another one that who shouldn't go in is if that dog is pulling on the leash to get in there, that dog should not be allowed to be let off leash and go in into the dog park. In my opinion, because it's already in an aroused state. It's so amped up and it's just ready to burn. Right? If a dog can't enter, the dog can be excited, but not be losing its mind and barking its head off and pulling at the leash to get in. Right? And, again, that's where the training comes in as far as the loose leash walking, calm behaviors, you know, gaming things. So, I think that's another thing. Awesome. And that brings us right up to what I was going to ask you next, which, you know, assuming you do have a dog that learns the dog park is lots of fun and starts to get a little excited on our arrival and does start to pull or even bark and maybe lunge towards the park a little bit. You know, how do you kind of deal with that? How do you, you know, work on that so that you can continue to take your dog to the park? Well, there's a lot of, how I would start that is I would start teaching the dog very early on that a tight leash, other than in tracking. I mean, of course, when you're doing tracking, there's going to be a tight leash, right? And that's necessary for good tracking. But for regular dog walking and dog interactions, I always teach the dog that a tight leash never gets them anywhere or anything. It always ends up in the opposite. So, for instance, if the dog is pulling towards the park or pulling towards something, I would be backing up. But truly, again, to be honest, I'm not going to put my dog in that situation either. I'm going to have trained the behavior so well before I ever get to that point that it's not going to happen. But let's say you really want your dog to go in the dog park and it's, you know, figure eight and all kinds of stuff trying to get in the dog park. Rather than letting it blast in there on a tight leash, pick your dog up.

If you really have to go in because you're on the road and you've been traveling, if you can pick your dog up, pick your dog up, take it into the dog park, release it, right? Because then it's not at least pulling you in. But really where the work starts is at home. And how I start that is with my client dogs where I started is I tie the dog to a doorknob or a tree. Because it's always about the dog wanting to get to something, right? So first you create, I create the handler as the resource. Because a lot of dogs don't, they kind of see a handler as a resource, but they almost, when they're attached on the leash too oftentimes, they see the handler as an anchor. It's something that's back there that's just holding them back. That they're trying to get away from, right? And so I reverse that and I tie the dog to a tree or to a doorknob and I start to walk forward. And if the dog starts pulling and jumping, I just reverse my direction. And then once the dog has the floor on the floor, I keep going forward. So what the dog is going to learn is that if it has self-control, and at that moment, the only self-control I'm looking for is a slight little bit of give in the leash and four on the floor. The dog can be wagging its tail. It can be as happy as it wants to be. It can't be barking at me. The leash has to be a little tiny loose, even if it's just by the clasp and the clasp is hanging just a little bit. That's loose for me. Four on the floor. So I start training that. And then all of a sudden, what you start to notice is when you start doing that, the handler's value in the eyes of the dog goes way up. And they start to appreciate that more as the handler is actually being a resource and not just the anchor. So then I practice that in many different venues, right? Like lots of dogs. Do it in the house. Do it outside. Do it, tie it to trees. Tie it to park benches. And then once I get the behavior that I really want, then what I start doing is I start adding in other people or dogs. Or I can do it by myself. Like if I have another dog, I can have the one tied up. I could have the other one with me walking towards that dog. And chances are that dog wants the other dog as well, right? So I use that as another way of teaching the dog that, you know, in the presence of another dog, you can still maintain control. So I do stuff. So I do those kinds of things to teach the dog about a loose leash. That it's its responsibility to do the loose leash. And then when I do walk the dog on leash and we are out, it's always just a red light, green light game. You're going forward.

The dog pulls on the leash towards something it wants to sniff or get to. I just start going in the opposite direction until the leash loosens. Immediately I turn around and if that dog wants to go sniff a hydrant, if it can get to that hydrant, I will let that dog sniff that hydrant. So the other thing too is that when I'm doing these training walks or these training sessions, I'm not going on a destination walk. I'm going on a training walk. I'm really training the dog what I want it to be like on leash. And I mean, a lot of people, especially like up where we live, like half the year, it's pretty cold. So it's really hard to train with food outside. So I always encourage my clients, you know, figure out what it is that your dog wants in the environment. Use that as your target. Don't go on destination walks. If you want to go on a destination walk, go by yourself, leave your dog at home until it's completely leash trained. So I'm a firm believer in the leash training has to come first before the dog park. You know, the dog, because if that dog is pulling and figurating before it's getting into that dog park, that's a really, really bad type of precedent to be setting, right? Because what you're teaching the dog is that the more out of control it is, the more it gets what it wants. I don't want my dogs to learn that. And I don't want my dogs to be around dogs that act like that either, you know, because my dogs would be, my dogs would be very, that's inappropriate behavior. You know, I mean, really, like I've got much, but most of them are, have some kind of herding dog in them, right? Like they're all herding dogs from one form or another. And I, I don't know, like the herding dogs and the working dogs in particular, I think are such sticklers about rules. You know, like they have pretty strict rules about stuff. And, you know, I can't tell you the number of times my dog, Dory Time, has looked at a dog, right, that was out of control and did the whole, you know, the eye sweep, the up and the down and the, well, you know, this is inappropriate. You know, all she's missing is a head shake. You know what I mean? And you can really see her eyes because she's shaggy. So her eyebrows move up and down. Oh, God. Yeah. So, so kind of, so that's my spiel about the, the dog pulling and overly excited to get in there, you know? And again, I, there's a big part of me that says, you know, Barbara, of course you're a trainer and you have unrealistic expectations of what a dog should look like when it's going into the dog park. However, the other part of my brain says, you know what?

I have seen so many well-behaved dogs walk into a dog park on a loose leash. Do you know what I mean? It's possible. And it just comes down to, it's the difference between the people who value the concept of training the dog beforehand and they want a dog that is self-controlled. Because that's the other big thing in my life with dogs is, and I always tell my clients this, I am not interested in controlling a dog. I, I want to teach them self-control. I want them to understand what they can and cannot do. And I'm not interested in controlling them. I have enough self-controlled issues myself. Honest to God, Melissa, you should see my shoe collection. It's ridiculous. You know, and I get way too, I get way too many speeding tickets. Like, and then my husband says, watch this. And I was like, wow, it was one of those things that was set up on the highway. You know, so clearly I have impulse control issues myself. I need to manage those. I don't need to worry. I don't want to have to worry about managing my dog's impulse control. I want, I want to teach my dog impulse control. And, um, like yesterday in the clubhouse talk about the conference, you know, we were talking about, you know, some impulse stuff or whatever. And I said, yeah, you know, um, I have two, two of my dogs can clearly, I mean, they can clear my six foot chain link fence and be out of the yard in a heartbeat. But they choose not to because they know it's, that's not an option. That's not in our rule book. And it's not because they've ever been punished for doing it. It's because they understand that the perimeter that shouldn't be breached. And yet, I mean, both of those dogs can pretty much do a eight foot straight climb up a wall. Yeah. You know, so, um, so I'm all about teaching that impulse control and the loose leash walking is just one of those components. It's just an impulse control thing. So if you start teaching it and you have expectations of it, um, then you can get that and you get it within reason, right? Like it's not, it doesn't mean that the leash has to be completely like a noodle, like, right. Um, but there has to be some semblance of control on part of the dog, because if it's not controlled going in there, it, you know, potentially you could be running into a lot of problems once you do get in there. So that's my spiel on that part. So, um, I have one last question for you, Barbara, and it's kind of the question I've been rounding out, um, all of my interviews with lately. So I want to know if there's, uh, something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training.

Um, you know, I think the biggest shift in my training over the last little while, um, is really moving into a more active based training. And what I mean by that is letting go of the dog needs to be able to do this. And instead of, I look at, I always think that, you know, I mean, with people, if you're having fun, you're going to learn more, right. And you're going to retain it and you're more likely to repeat the behavior. So what I, I think the biggest thing that I've changed over the last while is really, really, really, um, asking the dog, what do you want to do? What do you want to do? And, um, and providing more of that within a structured framework where I get what they, what I want and they get what they want. And instead of just having kind of like these hard and fast rules about what every dog has to know. And so I think it's just more, I think, I think I'm giving dogs more and more autonomy in their lives than I ever did before. And I'm encouraging my clientele to do that as well. Because I think what I've noticed is the shift in the, since I started doing that, since I allowed my dogs to be more autonomous, is that my relationship with them is so much better and so much stronger. And they're making so many more choices that are very, very good choices that I didn't even necessarily train them to do. Do you know what I mean? But they're doing it because the relationship is better and they feel like they have more autonomy. So the fact that they have so much more control over themselves gives them the ability to give in on other things much easier. Because I think that it really does build up that trust. And, and I want to, I also want to clarify that that doesn't mean that I don't crate train my dogs because I'm a huge, I'm a huge crate training fan. And I do, my dogs are crated or they're in X-Pens. When we're in the car, they're all in their crate. They, they are crate trained and they are in crates. And that is the one thing that I do. But in other areas where I can give them autonomy. And there's, I do, I really do. And I, and I love that. And, and I'll give you an instance of where I give them autonomy. So, you know, I'm pretty extreme in the things that I end up doing with my dogs. As far as, um, like climbing a foot wall and things like that. Right. I let them, I, I, I let them do that. But I also physically train them to be able to do it safely. Um, but the other thing is, is that when I'm going out on my ATV and I'm going to run my dog, if the one dog says, no, I'm going to stay back here and sniff this hedge. I'm like, yeah, you can do that. Like, I don't insist.

It's not like, it's not a forced March. It's like, we're out here for your enjoyment. You get to do what you want to do. Um, and, you know, probably about five years ago, I would have been a little bit more insistent about, no, you got to come. We're doing this now. Um, but so changes that I've seen in dogs in, in, in my dogs and the dogs that I train is they check in much more frequently. They don't feel compelled. They, um, they get out of the truck. Like when I let them out in the field and they get out and then I'm going to ride or walk. The first thing they all do is they all check in one by one. Are, are we doing something together or am I free? And the answer 99% of the time is you're free. This is what I'm going to do. And you're welcome to join me, but you're really free. You can, you can chase the rabbit. You can kill the gopher. You can go sniff in the tree line. You can go in the dugout and swim or you can run with me, but it doesn't matter. And because I give them that choice more often than not, they choose me. So I think that maybe it's the biggest shift is just my, my understanding and my concept in my deliver, my delivery of allowing autonomy for the dogs and freedom. It's just so much more and so much better. What a, uh, kind of a strong reminder, you know, after what we were just talking about, about dog parts and things like that, that sometimes, you know, the important part is learning what your dog actually really enjoys. Right. Oh yeah, absolutely. Isn't that, isn't that the thing? And, you know, I think the other big goal that I always have with my dogs is I really want my dogs to choose me. I want my dog to want to be with me because it enjoys itself when it's with me. And it, it knows that fun things are coming and we're going to have a good time. I want to be that fun aunt, that fun dog owner that, you know, the dogs are like, yeah, we want to go where she's going because we know she's going to have a lot of fun, you know? And, and so I, I really, I cultivate that a lot. And again, I mean, I have access to spaces and things like that, that I can, that I'm, I can do that. Like with my own dogs, I can run them off leash in open field and I can walk them in open field. I know a lot of people don't have that opportunity. And second, I also have a huge outdoor training field. It was an old pasture and it's thin. So dogs that don't have the greatest recall, that's where we start. You know, we start in that, in that fence area.

So my clientele gets a lot of opportunities that a lot of other dogs don't get as well because they get to experience these things and then they see it and they think that I want that. I want that for my dog. I want that with my dog. And, and so much of it is just, it's so much easier because of that, just allowing them to be dogs. And that is the biggest thing. Find out what they love, let them do it. And if you're a part of it, your status goes up way high. The only time your dog's having fun is when it's running away from you. You know, that's not a good sign. Not so much. Yep. Exactly. All right. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Barbara. Well, thanks for having me. It was so nice to talk with you again, Melissa. And it was, I'm so pleased that we were able to present on this topic because like I say, when I put that first post out on Facebook, I was, I was stunned at the amount of just the reaction that I got. And it was all positive. It was really, really good. So I'm so happy we talked about it because it is, it's that time of year. And I think people just need that information. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree. And, and thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone. As soon as it becomes available today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Body. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Bye. Bye. Thank you.