Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 13: Dr. Helmut Raiser

um female Then There came something special in him and I think this is something what I got but I'm the the fourth of four children and my sister Inga Was Bitten from a dog when she was young and this caused lots of fear for me and so it starts and a friend of mine had Shepherds when I was a young boy maybe four or five years old and he likes to to make to tease me and he lets his dog house and I run away I was a good I was a good help at this time already and the dog jumped on me and I fell down and the dog was on me and I was totally confused and the fear became more so I was sensitized but uh I had always a wish I want to have a dog and my mother never allowed this and when I was 14 my father said hey mud I'm working there he developed from blacksmiths to uh cars at first to NSU bicycles then they come motor bicycles and they come cars at the end he has a car garage with seven employees and a Volkswagen company and um but when he was developing his work his work he uh said to me hamoud I'm working there in the neighbor Village and there is a little let's go there and we take a puppy so we took my first dog County a mixture of Shepherd and Spitz oh wow and she was a female and so I had a candle in the uh at my house and when she was in heat all the all the dogs from the from the village came and did another and so first heat five puppies oh my God I didn't know where to give them so all our employers had to get one puppy since second heat and pregnant again and my father says it's impossible and so at this time it was normal we have a very different sensitivity to dogs yes yeah uh we went to the um to the Hunter and he shut the dog and my father said we'll take a male and a real dog so my sister Hager she gave me to Christmas lexicon about dogs and there was doorman um heart not you cannot fool him and it's a one-person dog and said oh that's my dog so I made an advertising in the newspaper and I had the good luck that in close by in hildesheim there was a Boris Zimmerman and he has a real good Doberman he won the championship twice and this was a very hard talk and nobody could touch him and so he the Dobermans were quite popular at one time this time they were very good they were very good yeah and nowadays this race is totally dead and ruined and so uh he answered my advertising and I wanted puppy from this dog but of course the No Name like me didn't get a puppy from this dog but there was another uh group another litter in Braunschweig and that and my father that oh this one is who's not coming in front who's standing in the back his intelligent dog and I got this okay but both sermon took me to zasted this

was my first place and my first teacher were in darshan it was a good group in this area and I met there Klaus Huber he died already but this was my first teacher and Klaus was also something special and with the dogs and they really realized very quick that I so you were already kind of getting into shoots then I reckon it was a police police a police dog Club okay and they were very good people and we have lots of Rottweilers which never go out of the arm and I was young with 16 and strong and so I have to do the helper work and then I got a tent and I went 14 days on the training field and trained my dog all by books yeah and what I saw from from the friends and my doberman always wants to run away so I have to close the door and train from the morning to the evening and he was he was very thin by all this stress but I have no idea what I did in British well I tried it and then come the first trial and um I should do the no the first trial was I participated and I won was 200 I think 79 or 70 or something like this isn't it crazy how we remember certain things yeah and I remember that there comes lambrecht an old man a judge and he was one of the important person in this club he said hemut you can become a good dog handler you have future as a government you see I was always very gray even especially in this age now I'm quite polite but at this age I looked at him and I said hey uh who wins here and oh I never I never get uh so shy and it was in SV afterwards much worse and so this was my start and I learned from Klaus Huber and Klaus Huber was the first generation of pupils from Bernard menel at this time there was Bernard men in Castle and Klaus always talked about him oh and he knows so I had no uh contact to him but um to his first pupil generation and what what years are we talking we are talking about 70 before before 17 okay before okay uh 66 I got my doorman and it was two years I went to the training field must be 68 69 something about this and so I had to do the helper word in the first trial I was a helper of course all dogs ran away and at this time you were a good helper when you can threaten the dog away yeah so everybody wants to train with me and I had fun in this and I learned a lot but when I went to my studying this was 73. um Klaus told me if you go to gettingen you must go to weiner there's Wolfgang they are the best in the area yeah and he introduced me to them and these were very big friends to me over many many years and so I came to this club and they had a dog a border from from border from

they just bought this six years old dog from the uh from the Customs because nobody could touch the dog and they feed them only with the stick through the kennel and so and Wolfgang and Gunther they went there Wolfgang threatened every dock away just with a handkerchief and that's so impressive when you look right yeah yeah wow and um they took this dog and they went I think 10 20 kilometers with this dog home and Gunda had this dog in his house and when we were sitting there in weiner uh Linda said well nobody can can make parking with this dog every every door box and they laughed about me you say yeah come on show and at this time this was just a quite a brutal work um because the background is the 60s there was no barking in the blind it came up in the 60s and before the dog had only to bite and when it came up we had no knowledge about ethological things like we know today we tried everything was a ring rink teasing and aggression and compulsion so shoot scenes was aggression and compulsion nothing else of course we had the SEC and we did pray but nobody talked about pray Bernard men was the first one brought the term prey and defense and in this yeah go go more about this because that was one of them I come on this item and um so um we went out with this dog and I stood in the in the blind I had this box with stones in it and Bodo came and I was quick I give him a bite I said now what is the problem come he packs and well and so I won I was I was a star I was upcoming Star and Gunter was already a judge a very good one and a good Handler also Wolfgang was not such a good helper but he has all knowledge and talks and studied all her books and so and um so you were pretty fortunate to to I mean I guess it's Germany too I mean it's the the where everything started as far as shooting goes and but still you were pretty fortunate to be able to I was happy that I met Klaus Hoover he introduced me to gunta and Wolfgang and Gunther showed me around and um introduced me to all the clubs and to all the people and uh to the director of the area and this was my my start and and he introduced me to Bernard Mendel and so we worked two three years no one two years with Leo from from stemi and we couldn't bring him for the banking so we went to Bennett menel and it took him three minutes what we have not reached in one and a half year he had just he just put the arm put the tail attacked yeah and let him bite Jimmy said I'll send the dog so Bennett good timing and doesn't take more than three to five minutes and the stock can't understand what it has come for right and then Bernard

asked me to come with a seminars he was a little bit older already and he always talked and I had to do the work and I never did what he talked but he was so pleased that everything works what he talks and after a while I told him Bernard you talk about prey and defense but you don't know what it is no I didn't tell him of course I never told him because he was he was my big ideal and with him I had very good time but Gunther brought me also in this area and introduced me to uh virishta he was a director of this area and um I had to when he judged trial and he saw that I was very good and good in the motoric and everything so I should become a teacher helper he said I said what is this WOW say yes say yes do it yeah I said okay I will do and the teacher help at this time was a helper who worked the dog in in the trials nothing else okay but we were full of this Spirit of prey and defense and here was going on and every Thursday we had our training in vain and there was a discussion up to uh four o'clock in the morning and interesting so so when and when there was four o'clock Gunda said always went somewhere there so we finished where do we go now and then we went to the last pup and got a beer in the smartphone perfect but at eight o'clock I was always in the lesson in the university and I was sitting in the last row and I always was sitting like this this was my my uh life as a student in the beginning because I couldn't become a dentist I wanted to become a dentist but I had a average of 2.4 and I was one of the big um of the ages where there were so many children and the numerous Clauses at the entrance for the university for Dentistry went from uh 2.0 to 1.0 and so in the end I waited 14 terms and in this time I already finished my studying as a teacher for sports and chemistry um and I suffered in this time that I couldn't do a Dentistry at the end if I wouldn't have this park studying yeah I wouldn't have this body uh and the healthiness in my age right and we would never create it uh This Modern dark spot in this way yeah because we I was the second generation of pupils from Bernard Mendel and we did a lot trial and error in our third Thursday night discussions and Gunda me I was a progressive yeah with L always knew and ideas Wolfgang or the conservative when I came with prey well Frank no no no no and then when he accepted I was already back to defense because when we build up the dog only with prey they did a very nice uh technical work with 10 months but this was no shots seriousness because maturing of a dog with a Shepherd is 18 months two years

and then matures the gray yeah the aggression and if you settle the exercises before there is maturing there comes no conflict by this by this uh you see I showed it in the seminar there is antagonism between drive and technique and the dog want the drive we want the point we want the technique and by this struggling you have only conflicts and in the past we were very brutal to reach the technique and nobody cared about happiness and and drive if the dog works perfect this was a v you know the 100 point in the bundesiga with smara would be today maybe uh 90 or something like that right and well in this 10 years of Park studying I had so many time uh to to do something with dogs and um I went to all lessons in the forest in the biologics in the psychology in the uh for teachers and um oh it I such a what can we use for Doc Sport and then when they made me for a teacher Helper and we had we are full of this Spirit yeah I said well a teacher helper must teach how to train a dog and then I sit down and typewrite it you had no computer and something else you have to put on Matrix and if you do one word wrong you can start from the beginning yeah and I taped uh I don't know how many maybe four or five pages about prey about defense about aggression about learning classical conditioning instrumental conditioning and then um I they introduced me on the area meeting as a new um teacher Helper and gave me the option to make a short talk and so I talked about this and what happened in the first year 10 odd groups of my area asked me for a seminar and then I gave them the script and as a poor student I said well please give me two marks for the paper and everything perfect and I which was probably not that common at that time right no and um no at this time nobody earned money with this and for us in Vendor it was absolutely no go that you earn money with your hobby yeah and well um in the second year it was already Europe Belgium Switzerland Austria and then afterwards Finland trade and everywhere and then all over the world yeah and I realized what we figured out by trial and error and we as I said Wolfgang was conservative me what I was Progressive and Gunther was always a dummy wall between us yeah and it was open-minded Perfect combo and we were we were super Trio and when we came there we have our pipes with the vein that comes with the pipes if we smoke through the pipes and well it was a super time and then come people like hey mutuba like others and uh horse Kenosha and what we have figured out by try and error in 10 years after two years they got it after two years they were better than we were yeah

and and then it's uh this message with the prey and everything was spread out I got lots of uh critics from the SV I wanted to uh after after a while I had to overwork this script yeah and um then I tried to find a publisher at first I asked CSV if I can publish this in the SV magazine oh no we cannot talk about prey we get angriness with the hunters oh I said okay okay later when the Pitbull killed the the child in Hamburg yeah suddenly prey was totally forbidden biting was forbidden we have to do this BH this is a crazy test there and uh this was always so far from from from the real from the truth but there were official decisions up to today with spy collar with electric color with everything this is so crazy uh what they decide but see at our society uh with with covet with uh in Germany with electricity and this is all just um ignoring the facts and it's only um what is this idiology it is ideology it's ideology and making money money but we have this problem from the beginning in the docsport with that we never got uh um a Lobby in the in the big uh companies in in the big organizations uh FCI vdh Shepherd or Club whatever yeah they are always uh kicking Us in the ass for our work and showing off with our results and this made me quite angry a little bit later in the beginning I was very eager to win and when I saw after Spiel I was Dragon it was you know I said oh I must be better and this was my idea that I can beat Fritz because this was the first championship I saw Kunta took me to the championship Fritz once with Eno and with League on and so I get my imprints where to go amazing yeah and well um seminar started people came learned developed more nowadays many people like Ivan developed a lot more in this Sport and have super creative ideas and I like this that you invite me because it's a we can't we call this always the elephant round yeah to talk on this level we have this in our LCC week every year that we invite someone um to to discuss with us like you did inviting me um have discussion look over the Border uh what else can I learn and it's so funny and so effective to do this well back to the time in let me just stop here for a moment just to explain to to my audience that uh how how we got to this point that we are talking in person after quite a few years um so we we just decided that everybody for some reason of course knows you about what you it's my program where again everywhere where I come

everybody knows you and says I cannot remember yes but not many people I at least I don't think too many people in the states are aware of of the experience and knowledge that you have in trucking and I I was genuinely genuinely interested in to to hear you make a presentation it was a it was beautiful this two days that we did here I cannot be more grateful that that you came and you did um and yeah it's that that's what dog training is to to be able to communicate with each other and sometimes somewhere somebody knows something and then we have to connect we have to test it we have to question it in them well it's working notebook said this uh very uh precise he said nowadays if somewhere in the world comes up a new tool yeah this is at once the good people take it at once try if they can't integrate this in their work or they threw it away yeah and yeah so you remember when we met in the uh first time I told you for three sentences I said now I can go home you know everything yeah yes about uh uh receptor clothing about Gengar effect uh yeah and well and then the coordination no there was there were and I'm sure there were four takeaways big ones like I mean very very important once you know like um with with it's just the fact that you can and you should allow the dog that little time out to gather his thoughts and and proper mindset to get back to work normally what do almost everybody does at that point they don't give the dog any moment it's like no you must go yeah and I learned this employees my practice in the beginning I I feel very sorry for the first one who learned that my practice uh 35 years ago they had to work eight hours nowadays with this princess we get I get no employees you can use nowadays because the education is terrible and but um nowadays I know if they work half an hour they need a rest if I let them work one hour they quit and they go home and and try another work yeah because they get a block they get gaga they go out of order and then one is in this conflict goes to Gray and Argus argues argues the other goes to Blue and stays away yeah so I learned this that the mental condition is something you have to extend and I told you in the seminar this is something you cannot force with compulsion yeah you can uh push borders with compulsion but if you do too much you get this blackout and therefore this is something you have to extend by training like if you want to build up a muscle correct if you do

too much in the beginning it broke and if you do step by step it grows and that's the same with the with the concentration for such a work Dentistry is such a work on such a field in the hello gain light with a microscope yeah so very concentrated and my well if I work with my superstars in the practice they work eight hours yeah but not with a beginner and when the dock goes 10 steps in a perfect way and has afterwards is this Gaga effect here then he has learned something and if we have the conflict and you put more conflict on it it never helps it cannot work it never helps yeah yeah like it's really I I highly recommend it you know anybody that's interested in tracking they should be calling you an email I worked already with all the big ones hand in hand over the track and yeah they they they many of them called me what what is your secret why do you score always so high I said yes because you know like now they with how how it is with social media media and influencer and you know if you if you do good marketing yeah people think you're really good and it takes just a common sense to to check what are you a good teacher have you accomplished something what like like it's very easy to check like I you know what happened was me and my friend uh Greg doubt we were talking and it's like well yeah there is also some people giving seminars everywhere and their big names and then you go to working dog which is a beautiful place to fact check things you know and there was like let's check helmets right of course you know and it's like from I don't know for how many years with how many dogs like some consistency of Excellence course uh iron the most thing that I'm proud of is when I take a dog of course I check will it work or will it not work if it works I keep this dog sometimes friends said hey this dog is under your level you must take a different no I have a dog and I try the optimum and all my dogs I showed over four five six years on a high level on the same high level and they don't get older yeah right of course they get a little bit older but not in drive and not in spirit and uh and I never need a veterinarian if you understand what I want to say yeah and not in the in the in the in the past and so I'm back to the point um where we talked about uh my first experience were but we got a dog a good diverse house was judging marabusa cashless and she gets uh she ran away from The Barking but she said Kunta said this is a super we must have puppy from this yeah she was betrayed and we got a puppy and it was a super puppy I said this puppy I want to have so we went to the breeder it was a 36 hour

trip from one Pub to the other without sleeping and I told Kalan Schmidt hey you must make shoots and three with this dog and I want a puppy from this how I can do this he would breed I yeah I said I will do this uh oh if you do this uh but I get a puppy from it you get two I said so I took this female I trained this female after three months there was a trial far away and I said well I will go to this trial and make the shoots and three that I can qualify for area test and then for Bundesliga and welfare said well tracking you can do make a v obedience well 80. if you're good luck you can make an SG in shutstin's so I came back 98 97 96. how did you do this and everybody told me when they see my training in the past this is crazy what's happening if you see him in training you always think he cannot do a trial and then he comes and makes three times a week at this time yeah so why Ori at this time I worked on these three forces yeah the drive the active compulsion the depressing in in my my head I had already this these three things but I had not this model for this this came always later yeah it was always trial and error first was a stomach and then comes the brain right intuitively you understand yeah but this is where like how you said I guess now that I'm listening to you becoming the teaching helper that was a very important in your development because that made you that made you start to write and once you start writing about something you start to understand that you know different level for yourself right I was so I'm still astonished when I read my book what I what I published um 79 what I already put in it uh what and later it made senseless because I looked in the science uh studied Behavior studied everything studied physiology and I put it to this book what I wrote it was very hard to find a publisher but at the end I found someone and we're talking about their schutz hunt yeah yeah and um well when this book came up I had already it was 78 79 the book comes up I had already performed with Mara cashless on the bundesiga the first first trial was nice there was a Bex wouldn't croak from Hamburg in a in a poki camp and they already drink their beer because he has 99.99 and was the winner and Mara was in heat so I was the last one and suddenly they got the glass fall down with 99 100. and this was my first entrance and I won a coffee machine from my area president and over the whole studying I cooked my coffee with this machine so um then I went with Mara to bundesiga and who was this guy he uh he was Bundesliga the year before and he was before me and

he went back no he went into the stadium to do his performance and he passed me when I brought Mara back and he just asked me um uh what did you do I said 100 and I felt the eyes in my back gluing on me yeah he was the champion the year before and um so it was a 19 100 obedience in the 99 shot since and the tracking was perfect the last article she sniffled on a very stinky leather and went on 95 95 with the help and so I think it was a first place or something like this this was my first start with um with a bigger trial and then beside this I already trained my Virgo this was high breeding and it was a dog well he was choleric and with nine months I said I can beat Fritz pillai in obedience it's perfect and intriguing uh of course I had not this style of tracking but I was busy I was so busy and difficult and everything so it was hoof and I had six times ground changing yeah everybody has ground changes yeah so 40 failed and I did a 99. and then comes obedience and I put my dog on the post for the beat and suddenly he blew off I said oh dear but this was the stress yeah because the pancreas already was broken by this particular somatic stress what I gave to the dog and um I need I learned what I can do with compulsion how much to push right and uh there were the different sensitivity well before was the qualification to the world championship and the first qualification I won with this dog then I went to a holiday a friend cared my dog when he came back he was fat yeah so the second qualification was uh also quite good but he crashed all through the A-frame yeah because he was too fit with this hard drive and uh then came skusta I I just a quick question because I always I I mean you're somebody that would have answers to this when did the A-frame when did the wall the straight wall became an A-frame that was before you probably it was quite in the beginning of of my career I think in the beginning it was still the uh the straight 180 wall yeah that was a big change yeah and we will talk about the German Shepherd Evolution but yeah okay yeah I couldn't talk about the dogs later but I must interesting story um so second I did the sixth place and then Costa came made this in my beer and said Mr Riser when you take off your beer we will take you also to the championship this was a mistake because I was very gray in this and I said nothing and that took me at the reserve and then the team captain came and said hermod you must go with your dog for the helpers when they train and show

your dog for this I said hey oh I qualified for bundesiga I'm not here to brush the shoes from someone if I can perform I can win here but not as a as a serf and then this argues then I should go to Dr rumel he was the was always with a tie and educator so he went with me to the field and he yelled on me what do you do what do you think who you are and said hey stop yelling yeah uh I'm here to win not to be a slave and he turned away and I should not get my um reimbursement yeah so I didn't care for the money but I was pissed off with this I went to the to the um office knocked in the door opened and they were all sitting around yeah and claim Hammer what do you want I say hey I'm sure you know what I want yeah also with his voice this was this was a good thing what I ever have always when when I was provoked I my blood runs cold and I was never excited this is the same when I performed with the dog when I go in the blood runs cold and I can concentrate yeah so yeah we have no time uh wait outside and when I went out this was accident the door crashed because the wind but this makes much impression it didn't take long it looks came out and yeah Mr Right I know hey I don't want to talk with you yeah and roma came out and went away and I with a loud voice I say hey what Mr Rome uh presented yesterday to me this is incredible and this is not uh honoring a dark spotlight so since this time everybody knows me and so and and then it happened two weeks later was the bundesiga and when Vago in front of obedience blow off I said oh oh and then they all came Roman came and flabberg came with with the stick and Custer came with a stick and everybody came watch what I will perform okay 99. oh wow and at the end when I said for us that blood and he fled out like a lizard and so but it was a shitty dog in protection yeah and I trained with stemi this talk and uh I have to pimp him up for that there is some um some adrenaline in the blood and then he goes crazy so I asked the neighbor if I can put the dog there in the post and I asked my friend stand up there and when um when the last one goes out uh wait a little bit and then you call me in that I can start it once yeah which is hectic and so um there you go they they ask you as a eager wait wait wait yeah and hey wait wait wait yeah and then in the last moment I attracted my dog and I took my dog and went in and they were very excited and I did 95. and one perfect this dog so that was the the first time and this was exactly uh 1979 when my book was was coming out yeah perfect and this was a good timing Yeah by accident and with Vargo

at this time we trained uh in a way when we put the finger in the collar yeah that was a devil with this dog I could make a pup empty when I come in that's what he means and stemi has the same dog yeah and we make fun with this and so the problem was now I was on the podium and in front of the podium was such a microphone and my dog was standing there and I put the mother on and Fritz came which was I think on the second place hey hey I said if I put the mother on uh I cannot give so much compulsion here of the audience and he will he will be awful he will bite yeah and so I went in the with the muscle and it went quite well when the first one congratulates me but then came Custer with the stick limping and when Custer was 20 meters away suddenly Virgo focused um um and when he stretch it out the hand all the trophies fall down and a real noise the dark happened so and then come 20 30 people and oh wait so I blamed the whole scenery so uh in the beginning I was this nice boy coming up so talented and now they hate me all and this was my uh my entrance in um in the SV but I had the experience that by all this compulsion I gave quite an entrance when you think about by by yeah and then comes this what what what Riser is I'm consequent yeah and um I really felt sorry for my dog because his pancreas was psychosomatic broken and I have always to feed pancreon that he can develop the the meal and and after and after uh the buddhistiga I said you must not work anymore yeah so I stopped working I stopped pancreon and the dog became healthy again and this made me something in the brain when I hit Mara she was talented yeah and you don't work with the female she started to bite her legs and the hair was out yeah and when you worked here everything was nice yeah she was healthy she was super in condition and with Vago when you're working for our sport uh he gets sick so she's automatic sick and then I said um I start criticizing the breeding of SV are we on the point of breeding and I made this uh this speak that I said Marco they are nothing for this and you need a we need a working dog and then comes from our club in vendor they promote it nice and good and for me to come if you try nice and good you will get nor nice not good and then was the fearnheim clicker with the Martin Brothers they drink wine and offered water yeah so they made inbreeding and inbreedings and and forbid it for the others so they had the big Pro prick advantage to the others and Martin produces worldwide economic

with the shaver hunt and suddenly the breeding speeds up in a way with this terrible dog yeah then comes from me in dog in front frock in the in the back you know foreign so and I criticized the the fish is starting stinking from the head so they always try to threw me out the first described threw me out when I said Marco quicksand Marco they are not good and always I and they blocked me for strange because the blows are the dogs that I got when I started to be like oh wow there is dogs and pedigrees and there is moots and Kanto and and these are the dogs that I kind of got introduced to but I have a like we get to your story but I think I a very interesting question I have for you when when did that split happen of show and working dogs how how did that even happen well when Herman Martin produced took over yeah uh he started with a wsv and this opened a big Market yeah shepherds were sold for 500 Deutsche Mark at this time to Japan and so now this is something everybody wants to do and there was a situation that the area presidents were kermaster president of the area show judges and Hermann Martin judged every year the Hops of Gabriel Okay so in three and a half hours he donated 3.5 million or a Daymark to the people that's why yeah and he gave it always and in the beginning they had a winner then they had a VA group of 11 dogs why because we have 16 areas and 16 area presidents and 16th kermaster okay any more questions interesting yeah and who was obedient yeah get a VA doc yes that's that's well known fast this VA doc uh could create uh 90 meetings per year with 1000 Deutsche Mark yeah these were 90 000 black money without text afterwards the tax office came in and realized with some and they got big problems but at this time um Herman Martin um cemented his power with judging the VA dogs males the males in the in the hopso show and 11 people are the majority of 15. do you know what the others four do T right he doesn't have to say something everybody wants to please him to be one of them and so he created a

big breeding Mafia and then when he spread his over the world um all these curmeister one got Spain one gut Italy one gut uh whatever yeah I mean it's a beautiful model yeah and then they go there they sell they go there for judging and then of course they ask where can I get such a good dog they sell the dogs there next year they were invited again and of course their own dogs are the best ones and this is a this is a self-magnifying uh business at this time yeah and Herman Martin was the boss and we had a situation executive legislative media and well all the power were in the hand of these 15 people so and when Reiser came and says the fish is stinking from the head they judged me and it didn't take long and the official judge says well if you are if you are blamed and if you participate you cannot be the judge so I always I always kick them in the ass and they try to um they try to always block me in the area test in the beginning they did the mistake they told me on Thursday you cannot start the weekend well Friday I got a judge for a quick decision and they had the decision either they pay 500 000 Euros at Deutsche Mark at this time or go six months to jail or they let me start yeah and so I always started against enemies and they beat me and beat me and beat me but I was good enough that they never could beat me totally away and and it it works for three three four times I I win the Bundesliga yes and um well um it was the situation there with uh Vargo what I say when when I saw that the dog who has not the talent is raped in a way that he gets sick and I said this is too ugly I will not do this and there were two two imprints where I changed my mind the first imprint was when we had no knowledge and did not meet Bernard Mendel we tried to uh to make the dog bring the dog to barking with with Force you see everything we with the stick we hit the legs that they limped on three legs and uh with a with the cigar we pressed on the nose and with uh a chain we uh so everybody was someone was good with the sticks the other one was good with his chain and you were the best one if you can make the dog barking and when I broke the canine of a dog of a very good dog I said hey this is it's not that way if we destroy the dark to train them there is something wrong and then come this part from Bernard menlyn this makes me so motivated to write down to spread this message uh to improve the dark spot to make it more Animal Protective and more clever this was my first big imprint when I realized what I do there is incredible and the second was when Vargo became sick yeah and I realized this is if you don't work with the talent

then it came with this with the talk cuanto Canto mutton Marco for this here shitty dogs and again they tried to block me out but I came back always with quite good results and so later when I had 20 years no healthy Shepherd yeah I said there is a problem with the with the code Icona yeah and they want to kick me out for this because I uh said so negative for this race right some years later yeah and you saw in the world championship all the foreign countries come with these dogs who could not jump because our people were already clever enough to sell them with two and a half years or with three years when they see that the spine is it doesn't work so nowadays also the foreign countries are more clever than Germany and but this was the development um when I saw that something goes wrong with the training and with the breeding I always felt I should do something or I should quit yeah but as we have such a nice environment with the people and good friends all over already by all these seminars you see all over the world are so super people yeah and [Music] um so I went on I wrote this book at the same time I became bundesiga so this was a big thing and everybody used the web how was how was the book how did the Germans accepted did they like the book how did that like because it was a very different book for the time that it came out only one about this and this was 15 000 uh books they produced and they were run out very quick and uh oh I think it was the second edition was uh 15 000 books and this was also sold very quick and then I thought then came up this video with VHS yeah oh I'll tell you a story about this but go on and so I said in the video I can do it very very much better and I make a I ask uh in in Dortmund a production company um if we can film this and they say Hey you cannot talk this must be official I said I can do this and they offered me a special um special bonus we can work Saturday night from 8 to 4 o'clock in the morning and at the end it costs only one hundred thousand Euros and uh so ever after work I went over to Dortmund one and a half hour full speed uh in the night we sit down and reproduce this on betamax so that we can get some copies on Via VHS and when it was ready I have not heard the name beta Max this was this is some more ages some more power than the VHS but if you copy VHS maybe most of the world have have had this copies copies of the copies it's only snow exactly and but I asked the people how many can you sell and they said well if we produce something like this 100 120 you can sell the rest will be copied yeah so I just uh did some mathematics 120

100 000 it costs so I must make a price of 367 Euro Deutsche marks this was a lot yeah and at the end I um sold double and about 100 000 joules per left and this was very good at this time because I started my practice it was a good investment for my dentist practice Yeah and um well my father at this time my father sold his company and he gave me half a million uh and I paid it back they had a very good retiring money every year every um and so I could build up a very modern practice and this was my way where I with the Ducks well afterwards that came up the computer and the digital things and Fifi Luna bash everybody knows him I think yes um he told me hemut there is a guy in the school he's a Belgium champion in ringsport we must look there so we went there and it was the same like with you in in Australia we we just that story I have to tell we just arrived and stand in the back Bart was talking talking and so I just asked one question are you the Helmut Riser and yes and then it was love on the first side right two weeks later we met for training and then it happened that we did the revolution in in SV that we said this breeding Mafia we must split off we must make Democratic and uh um Heinrich Mesler who's now president of SV came 1990 I think it was to my house inside Helmut we must make Revolution we must blow off this Mafia where they uh chase the rabbits in their own uh Stables and we must split off this power and it was a big mistake I said yes he said you have the the working dog people we have half of the breeding door people and then I thought this would be done in two years no it was after 10 years it was still the mafia yeah and everybody tries to get a little bit of the cake and it was not successful but what was good when his brother Peter messler overtook the president and it's so funny all of these people who were in power if it's Custer if it's flavor if it's a Hermann Martin if it's the other Martin when they were kicked out they die very quick in cancer so use romantic stress like with my dog Virgo right and what happened everybody's watching them in this way and suddenly this one is President and they are standing always in this direction and they couldn't send this the only one who was also really strong honorful person absolutely without knowledge was Hans Gluck yeah with him I had a very nice experience when I criticized Martin says you have to talk with him and we had a good talk and I realized this is a honorful person but absolutely on the wrong position as a breeding uh breed as a training board

obviously right wow so but well um where did I step with the with the development of SV so Bart we made friends we made discussions and then it happened that Peter messler the brother became president and then it happened that we have this big um it was a big event like some big 2 000 people in 2 000 people in the stadium of batzenberg yeah I remember and there was a speech of um Bart of me of Gunther deagle Vivi lunenberg and it was the time when there comes a new animal law and we invited Dr Baumgartner he was the man on his table the uh the enable law was worked out and we invited him for his speech I Have This still on my computer and we worked with Spike color with electric color we demonstrated our Fifi demonstrated me demonstrated the training and after the seminar um we gave him his microphone and asked him we want the feedback what do you think about our training comparing to the animal law and I have this still in my computer he said he didn't see anything in these two days which is not compatible with the animal law and he saw lots of responsibility to to the dogs and he wished that everybody acts this responsible with the dogs like he saw here with us yeah wow and uh well afterwards they tried to kick us they tried to uh your Greek can come up and make always reports from the winner and when hemut Koenig from a fighterbach won the world the the bundesiga and he was asked by Young do you use electric color and he says of course they want to cancel his zika title his champion title and then that was pretty early already and then I told Helmut a Helmut if they want to kick you out I'm on your side they must kick me out also and I have already won several times uh again in the court against CSV and so we went together it was was a training director and before uh he we have a good good relationship and we train together and he never he never was able to train but Erica was very good his wife and Eric hunts was never able to train I can tell you a story interesting I can tell you a story and we hear the young dog was 10 months I had a young dog with 10 months we had the party for my bundesiga and he came there and I said well in two years we participate to each other and he started training his dog ilika went over hey come on you can't do this I will do this because he struck too much it was funny but with this dog what was the name of the dog um from Erica oh she had a very good dog this was two years old and they couldn't when the dog get the arm they couldn't get the dog out of the arm ah name there you go so Hans and Erica came to my house I was like hey this is every dog gets out yeah have you I said hence let's go

in the Visa Meadow I will show you so I worked the dog I drop the arm and this dog in his arm like crazy yeah so I have this it was um not the innotech it was a with a stick trytronics Ultra Tronics and it just put the butter and the dog more and I just kept on staying on it and well after gray comes blue and he went out and they are released so half a year later she qualified for the world championship with this dog it was very good on bundesiga and he was used for breeding all the time and produced a lot of good puppies so now come this that they want to blame Herman Kearney because it tells the truth about the electric color and I said hunts if it goes to the court I will tell the truth believe me yeah I really had no idea that this is going so far back Tate take this away yeah from from Helmut or you get your answer so it went to the court and I was really pissed off by the area president of Baden Baden this uh was the most uh he wants to know everything so and the friends from Baden Baden trained already in the stadium which were forbidden when the Bundesliga was there and he was standing of course in front and Jurgen ritzy says hey someone is coming uh and he said someone told you Jurgen ritzy someone is coming must put away the electric colors and um Jurgen said hey no no we do this and they trained with electric collar and there were some of my friends who told me the truth and was standing there and in the court he has to testify by God that he has seen nothing and then I said yeah and he was out of order yeah so I was really angry that someone lies in this way for the um for the loyal loyalty yeah and this is still the same everywhere where you go there are no characters yeah they they I hate this and yes it's very difficult I hate this yeah well and hence of course was afterwards very pissed off with me because of course we won yeah um when the judge realized that they all lie and they all uh don't tell the truth and this is the same with uh still yeah when you have a judge meeting with the vdh and uh there is also Christa Bremer and says now after the meeting we must talk about this and then come the advice we shall do it without talking about this but um and then I said hey hey hey hey I'm a dentist I don't feel my fool my patience to earn money or something like this I'm authentic and when I do this I can stay for this Crystal's been in the office for a very long time it's time that she leaves she destroys in the moment more than than she makes good she

is very intelligent she is very competent in the social uh thing and everything is order but when they only try to Dominate and to use power and this against the interests of the people in the sport yeah something goes wrong but it's almost I don't know if it starts in Germany I don't know if it's human nature but I think it's all over I mean you you look at FCI and I know people will watch it and then I I know I'm speaking the truth so take care of you know do what you want with it but this is something without Commission in FCI they really don't look for the interest and benefits of the people that train dogs no they just bend over to any political power as long as they can do their little games and they're it's a common sense you are elected to represent and defend us so we can train dogs right but it's I it's always this is your thing that's not their thinking correct the organization is more important than the people because this gives power and money and it's all about power and money and that's what it's the wrong organization I guess but we will get to decide I have to tell you this story because we said rude an hour a few times now and this was the time when I realize you know how you went and you you there was a moment in your career as a trainer that you knew that you actually are good I remember the time because I was just training I mean I I started obviously in Eastern Europe with all Russian military style of training is German you know we had these funny sleeves the white things that they you know you know yes yes that's what I grew up with then in Belgium the moment I went there it was like the ring sport which was so captivating but then I got into Switzerland and then I moved to the states and I still did not I mean it was just pure intuition I qualified for a FCI World Championship it was 1993 I believe in Finland and I go and I do obedience very funny story so I'm sitting in the stadium on the benches on the bleachers you know and I'm like why are we waiting what's going on and then they announced my name like I should be on the field and I run to the car I bring my dog it was a female malinor a crazy story but to make it quick I get 93 points now 94 points but it's on their hand through the network and it was I I believe it was like maybe protection obedience obedience obedience and in a world championship and I placed 12th and I had no even a helper it was all just me figuring things out just pure intuition the next year he comes and he judges the German Shepherd championship and I think it was in California I I think it was the The Walrus The organized the championship and he gave me 98 in protection

and everybody respected him as he was the the training director of you know so that it was very funny to when you say that he actually wasn't that great of a trainer but in my eyes at the time getting that score from him it was that approval that I I actually got it at what I'm doing so it was it was very interesting you know no he he understood the Oxford absolutely but he was not able to practice himself the the good one in the practice was uh Erica but this without but it became worse Hans was was quite good when when Hans overtook from Glick I was so happy and I told him Hans now we must create our Sport and the first is we fought so long for good working dogs yeah and we have already now the split that the show people do this show part and we have these working dog people who breed their own well I said well I tried it nice and good and I won but either the show people came for breeding and not the working dorky people came from reading so with one with one dog he was he was healed by this idea of nice and good because from where in the house we always give this message the result is not nice not good when you bring it together right yeah and This was um something uh where they split off uh these two populations and Peter messler was the first who agreed as the president obviously we have two populations yeah how long ago was that It's gotta be like to sell uh when did we have late 90s maybe well in the in when we had Kaiserslautern when was Kaiserslautern it I think it was the beginning of the 90s yeah I wouldn't know you see I'm young I'll still live in the future not in the past when I'm talking now about the past I I forget so many things as fridge Beeler or people uniberg they can tell you exactly everything yeah but I'm looking over still forward that's that's how it should be though yeah therefore the book retaliated books that you wrote is what changed for me I was just this one like wow okay there is a whole different way to look at things which I wasn't exposed at that time it kind of loud and was this point uh where we have already digital thing Jurgen Rickson filmed this and we produce Drive changing uh trip actually yeah then comes Bart and me we produce this contact how to use electric color proper and then barge tried to make it official and lost in the court that's when it kind of get yeah that's when the pressure really came on I think after that contact video or no or it was no it seems like you know no no this was it doesn't come from outside it comes when there was this animal law yeah well short story before um ozla called me and said hamud they will produce a new animal law and there is a professor

in the universe University of giesen he is a boss of the group who makes information to the politics so I met I went to giesen we met I met him he was a hunter and when I told him uh what if so super with electric color better than with the mechanical I said I know I know I know I'm a Hunter he came he went in this side room came back with the X-ray and showed me an x-ray with a uh of a dog with a full with his metal in the ass yeah I know that we uh when the pallets right with these pellets when they should stop hunting yeah and I know that electrical is better but if you want to reach something you must make a group to make lobe ismos and in this group you must take all the people the hunters the guarding people the club people for sure and the veterinarian and so we get the official veterinarian for Germany and [Music] um when I contact the hunting people professor bunnelli he was very smart uh guy and said hey Mr Riser I tried it it was impossible to glue this group together if you can do this I do all the work from my uh fine from my hunting club it was a very big Club Germany and so this worked I glue them together organized everything and we made meetings and we make uh 10 points and so we came in with our uprant at this time to the politicals and we worked two years in Bonn in the ministerium out the rules for dog training inclusive Electric color so and we nearly finished and then comes the problem in Germany uh the the the black uh party at the the CSU CDU lost and the green and the red ones overtake overtook the uh the government yeah yeah and then everything was finished because they are these not ignoring everything and still nowadays with the energy and uh well I we had good people there first Dr Baumgartner then Dr Krieger and then overtook doctor poulton I called Dr poulton every three months come on make ready let's finish this we need this and and over 10 years and nothing happened yeah after 10 years he told me well next year I'm no longer there this will overtake Mrs something shooter or something like this and say oh congratulations so you also uh sit this out yeah no no no I said yes absolutely I said Doctor I will tell you the truth this is such a hot iron no political Touch This because he doesn't get votes okay and therefore they do nothing so I contact one time this Young new lady who overtook this Resort and then I said okay I can't forget it she asked me

everything I said you have everything in the basement in your in your in your uh in your storage yeah uh and you start here from the beginning yeah and then I stopped it and um so nothing worked out in the meantime I had already my court decision that nobody can can forbid me to use it because I'm competent in this as an individual this was at the time when they tried to um to beat uh Helmut Koenig when he said yes I use it yeah and then me we went to court to make a decision that we are allowed to use it and we won after three and a half years we won yeah because a judge was quite fair and quite interesting in this and he realized we have the knowledge and we are responsible for our work and then he made this decision this was a honor president of the Overlander in Munich yeah and so we went to this to the SV and at once they changed it it's no longer forbidden it's just and it's still the same decision it's no longer forbidden industry uh this has to uh they have to blame the people on the private courts yeah because if they would not have changed if we would have forbid this everybody could apply for for the license because if someone can get it another one can get it yeah it should be and uh so this would be very expensive for SV and uh they were clever enough to stop with this uh that it's forbid but then came Bart want to make it official lost in the court but it's only a decision for this particular situation yeah and the the uh the court said uh that it's forbidden and every area can make a different decision yeah they all don't do it I tried it in my area and forget it nobody cares about this and well the official uh an inofficial way in vdhs it's forbidden but if you someone makes it uh make it that nobody sees this because without this this is this is a cure this is again one from for me it's one point in my life like when Vargo gets sick I said it's no way to treat the dog in this way and when I see this breeding with the Cowardly Queen I have to say this is wrong yeah and um when I broke the teeth of the of a very good dog I said this is wrong what we do and nowadays I say it's wrong that we judge in a way that we really uh put the animal in in such a stress situation that he has no normal life and this is only possible with Spike Holland electrical because the advantage of the electric color is evident there is a research in the university and over this brings less stress less and Spike polar and less than uh talking talking talking yes yeah because it's so clear for the dog because it's in a very good timing and when you have the seminar timing is all yeah and if you and and the the other good thing is

emotion body depends always on the situation if you press the button of one it's always one if you press the button of 10 it's always 10 right and it's much more predictable how you place it from the timing and from the dose yeah and nobody wants to kill a dog or to to destroy his dog they want points yeah and therefore in the moment where you we headed in seminar the first you teach classic conditioning a voice with mechanic that he does the work and then with the electric you have only the option for conflict but when he knows the way out of conflict then you have a 100 percent um success maybe 99 success when you press a button and then you can separate from a body and then it's much more clearer for the body to read the body language because you don't have to move with arms with hands and all the uh all the body gives it information if you have disciplined body yeah and this we have to teach the people and of course you can teach it only if the dog is trained proper and then you teach the people how to use a body language and it's impossible if you if you move all the time with leashes and with hands but if the dog has learned and you can give him a clear picture with the body uh the only uh um report for plus and minus for yes and no is press the button yeah and it's on a level where the dog has never a pain correct it's just a it's just a help for the guidance and of course uh if you give a knife or as capella in the hand of an ape it's different if I have this in a surgery in my dentist practice right but for everything you can get a license you can get a license for a gun you can like get a license for uh shooting with a with a with a trunk you can get a license for uh putting bombs from from a plane uh for everything you can license yeah and that's and not and you cannot get a license to uh for uh for electrical to to work a dog in a most effective and most animal protecting way correct this is so and this is something what pissed me off yeah that uh this emotion this ignoring uh this not asking competent people um but even when you look at all the studies like all the studies that point to the electric or shock collars whatever you want to call it and they say we should ban them all of those studies okay let's say not all of them but at least the majority that are good studies they all point out that when done correctly the dog has recovers immediately from Fear there is no stress and the end result of what has been taught successful and all of those studies point out to what happens if you just randomly start

to push the button as you said the ape getting the right well that's not the right excuse to ban something because some and we know that it's just nature it's just in our planet we there is we approach something that we like and we avoid something that we don't this is genetically baked in our DNA and even if we as much as we don't like it we know how to respond to it and the electric color when done correctly as we say it's a it really cannot be cannot be abused when it's done correctly it's a very safe tool I know I know that you can make crazy things with this and CR and quilting an animal yeah and so you can without it but from the beginning when we uh when we made influence into the politicals we always um said uh this must be um competent yeah and someone should get a license and I and I said hey uh I said to Mrs Prima at this time hey there is so much money there's millions of money you can earn yeah if you make this seminar did you give a license exactly and you give a license for 200 uh Deutsche Mark yeah uh thousand people will will get it this is 200 000 uh euros and even more yeah everybody has this we we figured out how many um are sold in Germany they were already 30 years ago uh several Millions yeah yeah yeah and uh so ignoring all this is um is so terrible and of course there is interest I forbid all Doc sport forbid all dogs forbid all uh working dogs yeah and uh the majority have these uh pets and uh they don't understand what we do right yeah so we have no Lobby this is our problem and the problem is that our official organizations they don't vote for our interests what is the result Ivan we must do it our own this is the only thing this is the only thing what you can do I tried already to overtake as a breed warden in SV and I tried everything believe me I have my experience this organization like the Soviet Union like the DDR they die their own this is why we create RSV 2000 I had no chance to do what you have to do for maintaining a good working dog which is create a cookbook how to train breed good dogs select them and bring the good ones back to the to the to the uh people to the breeding yeah so this is a circle what we have to do and you cannot do this in FCI you cannot do this in vdh and you cannot do this in SV and this was the reason where we say we need a little Island where we can do this and I'm so happy that we have this little island in RSV 2000 we have you saw what we have in the method for

the training we don't have this only for not only for tracking we have this for obedience we have this protection we have this for helper Workshop you know and we have a breeding system which is better and respects all the problems this Champion breeding kills every race in 60 years says it says doctor and so there is options for heterozygitis without cross there is option with diversity and this is all something and our president ibajpoy he's he's professional in this and he has a the statistics of this this is so interesting and now we have in our club the malis with that's what I was going to say that now has the best infrastructure for dogs better than vdh better than FCI yeah so we have everything what is necessary to do something for our interests yeah FCI will not do this if vdh will not do this SV does not do this we only have the problem that they have a 100 years old inter infrastructure and the big circus and the people want to go in the big circles in the world championship FCI in the world championship wsv and they don't come to us because they want to perform in the big circus and not in these smaller searches we have and this is our this is our only problem but believe me I was only my problem was only over 55 years in docsport that I was always 5 years 10 years too early and we just can't wait they kill all themselves when they when they don't change they kill all themselves hopefully they do it's been taking too long you know the question is uh if they give up if there is still the possibility for our sport this is the only question right maybe we are the last generation who can do this part but I'm here I work and I I have standing and are still busy to try to make it maintaining yeah if not we have done everything it's the only thing what I can say to this point yeah I think um I mean we know FCI right now will will uh the stick it will be forbidden from January it's in it's decided but we have a surprise we have the shuts on trial in our world championship we have the stick we don't have to obey this and even and even uh with the stick they asked the government and the government said already um it's no problem if you touch the dog with this soft stick yeah but but in the foreign before it's necessary yes they tried to please before and give up all our interests this is this is incredible and this is the nice thing if you have your own little island where you can um you can do what you have necessary you have your own trial yeah correct you have your own breathing uh of course you have to obey the bigger rules but uh you

must not be always so devote to every what they decide if it's totally incompetent and Contra productive yeah this I do the same in my practice you see I do many things without payment because it's productive for the patient yeah the rules are different and you should not you shouldn't okay then I do it without payment I think once the I mean it really the Sport's gonna die if we follow those leaders and and not and they not protecting and defending the sport and then maybe this is the time when place like RSV will become the the solution I have um I have the hope that with our young people Albert and but here they are younger than I am they have the same power yeah they are very intelligent and in some things I they are better than I am so and I hope that there is a Next Generation right yeah what how I mean you know what's the are you for sure know but like because of my school and and certifying dog trainers and you know going through my school I have I have people that come uh to do the school from Germany and from different countries in Europe and they have like one of the benefits of school like this is that I don't have a problem teaching them everything from punishment to negative reinforcement to positive reinforcement different it's all good but it is so frustrating to hear when somebody let's say graduates from my school they have a very well-rounded education they understand just as we keep talking in the seminars and everywhere you have you avoid a new approach it's fundamental fundamental thing when they those trainers when they in Germany go to try to certify with the government they have to pass a written and practical test and in those tests there is specific questions and you have to you you will not get certified you will not become a professional dog trainer in Germany if you say the punishment positive punishment or negative reinforcement or any kind of use of aversive or compulsion can be better in certain circumstances they cannot become a professional dog trainer and that becomes a problem because now they they have to check that box and now you have a big number of professional dog trainers that are checking that box so now it becomes even harder to fight it because if you decide to find it you can they will come back at you and say well there is all these very famous successful trainers that also agree with us it's such a loop I mean there is no way out so how would you deal with that with RSV like how how is that gonna the business you stay away from the uh this is everywhere this is everywhere in Germany in this way uh there is a narrative uh what you have to say and

what you have to you have to think look at this this guy yeah you have to think about it look at covet yeah there are so important people who really have knowledge and bring the argues but they are Nazis they are schwerbla they are these they are this and from the people who are in power they asked only the people who make yeah yeah and T talk talk what they want to hear and you see character is something you find as beggar and in the academics but you also find there in there the people who are just egoistic and they sell their uh their mother for money right and so characters something has nothing to do with with knowledge but now it becomes I I think I I have no idea where what's gonna happen in the states they always are there always every moment they're knocking at that door trying to crack down and ban from colors and electric this is like um a mission for them and they have they have very good ammunition for the for the simple mind that today almost everybody function this way nobody has time or desire to actually do their own research and figure things out for themselves they everybody listens to it's a come in and out so when when in the States this conversation comes immediately well all of Europe already knows better we are behind all Sciences and we're behind and all of that is but nobody has the time to listen to to and and fact checked and it's a very easy it's like well are you good or are you a bad person oh I'm good person well then oh very difficult to fight at uh Evan with religion and with ideology we have in the past lots of experience you see of course in the middle age the Christians killed the people uh uh in uh we were burning women because they were witches in Germany yeah yeah in Germany we have the Nazis this was just ideologi now we have the green people yes it's just easy they destroy the whole country and people are aware of it but are afraid to go against because and if you go against then you're and you know and in our sport it's the same the animal protectors yeah uh they are idiolonged there it is and and these people put always so much energy in their interest yes and the people who work and are on the basic they don't have time for this they they do it and uh so it is like it is we have no Lobby yeah in the dark spot but it's a it's a whole uh problem in the society yeah we have a fun society and it uh and uh nobody learns to discipline you see last uh last month I talked to a friend

he's a teacher and I talked about the situation that I said hey I cannot get employees any longer these young people you can't forget the half stupid people make uh uh go to the university and the totally stupid people you cannot use and all these they just can't do this they learn no they learn you know no no some songs in the school they don't learn uh what is Rhymes something yeah like and they and they are missing something to remember because they can get everything very quick on Google yeah and there is a development that uh the character of the people changes by the situation we have and he said he told me hamud the worst thing in our school is that they did digital the schools because the the young people are not trained to remember something right and um so uh we will be strange yeah we will have we will have problems with this and uh there is a way in the society uh it changed a lot see I'm not I'm not so conservative I was always a progressive but in the way how it changed now I see this uh in our Deutschland it's a green people imagine 80 percent didn't want them they have 20 percent of the votes yep and to get the power yeah they uh make agreements to everything and then this guy gets a minister uh uh office and can ruin the whole uh uh industry in Germany why is this possible I don't understand they they they should not have this is a this is a a lack of the democratic that they just glued together and they promise something and when they want to be in power they make agreements agreements agreements just to stay in power and and so are so stupid people you see money most of them uh they have never finished uh work a job yeah they have no job they are if they would not be political they would have been unemployed people and this is something um where ideologi comes in the front ground and like you know a dog sport yeah egilogy comes in the front ground uh the lobbyism of the idiologan are so strong right and we workers are quite try to do the work in the best way we give and we don't realize that they kill us more and more and more and more so who knows I think we leave that alone but look at look at look at the history all these um all these societies who are based on air right blow off yeah they cannot last for sure that cannot last things will change sometimes sometimes it was necessary to destroy everything with the War I don't hope that this happens we are very pretty close to it but I know but I don't hope that this

works let me change the subject just stop frustrating I wanna I wanna say something like this story about the one the one story I have to tell everybody this story I it's one of my favorite ones when when we met in Australia you know like because I well I I don't know I I'm I S I'm I believe that I kind of met you few other times but I don't think we ever got that opportunity to really be face to face in Australia I was going I was giving a seminar and I was in Brisbane and and tomorrow I'm gonna about to make a seminar and I wasn't you know it was one of my first seminars giving like outside the country and the people that were hosting me they're like well what do you think if Helmut tries her comes to the seminar and I just couldn't even make sense of what they are asking me I'm like what what do you mean and then I to find out that you were you know just visiting and whatever you were doing I wasn't even sure and what do I say I cannot say no and then I'm thinking man if Helmut risers Gonna Come to watch me give a seminar of what I'm gonna do because at the time it was uh you know like I I always from again like from my times in Belgium when I was like okay there is Belgian ring and it was so interesting and it was just learning a lot of different styles of training and then I got the book and then I got like a copy of a copy of a copy of the VHS tape much snow yes [Music] and then I listened to your talk and I'm like man there is like a whole different way to look at dog training and drives and and and reinforcements and everything it was it was one of the most exciting times in my dog training career I cannot not remember this you know then there was the big time where I really actually got to hear your life and that was that was 94. sank Jose Martin Dean Calderon it was like the the hardcore super enthusiastic and very knowledgeable people that did the sport it was the World Cup soccer Germany lost against Bulgaria these are details you don't know you were mad because Germany lost the not even at the finals they you got kicked out by balkaria in like very early and I'm so happy but I cannot be happy because everybody around me is yes [Laughter] ah Dan this happened to me in Brazil when Brazil lost zero to seven oh that was big I was at Copacabana what do you do I I know what you felt yeah oh and so then I remember but this was the

time you were still there was no colors yet but The Walrus had this big white board and we had all this bleacher and we sat down and you just made you just went on for like a whole day of I mean we were like forever just listening and listening and just like a sponges you know and and then we take a break and then we Talk Amongst each other it was just so amazing and next thing you know a few years later actually quite a few years later well what do you think if helmetry is going to be on your cellular so I'm like I say okay and I the next day I come out and I'm like okay I I mean I just have to just do what I do and awards are not coming out I'm I'm now in front of everybody ready to go oh you were good and that is a big impression believe me yeah he's trying to be Incognito he's he's like okay I'm not looking at him I'm not making eye contact you should start yeah I try to be Incognito because we just were passing through we want to go to the Barrier Reef and uh luch says there is um Ivan and I said okay we put this hat on sunglasses and just go there but the bus Bush drums were quicker it was it was amazing and then of course once I got going and then and then of course you you know I think I don't know was it a break or was it something with the tracking and you kind of came in and you you really helped me recover and do my thing you know in a very kind of subtle way and um but yeah that was that was one of the times then then we did the what was it called the one that the money tournament that you won it was uh what's the name Master 2008 and and um that was a they like things like this was a good idea but never really ended up going more than one time well because um Carlos went sick he got cancer and he tried to do and already I already applied again but then they quit because they couldn't do this yeah so for those that listen and don't know what we're talking about there is a 2008 there was some conversations and some ideas to make igp or shooting By Invitation for money price I believe it was good I think it was ten thousand or something or 15 yeah I mean 10 I put to the next places like I cannot do this I felt uncomfortable with this yes but that that was a very good idea and this was one of the times when and I had a I had a show German Shepherd total show German Shepherd from Brazil I went I gave a seminar and they bring this dog and I'm like and they're like what do you think and I'm like I don't know so I work in my car I really like him can I buy him and now they're like oh he's really good

you can't buy him and anyway I ended up getting him but um I did not know how much the um how do I say this like even even between the working dog big name uh influential churches and communities they were even today they are very prejudiced towards oh it's a sure Shepherd he cannot possibly have what it takes and which we got to be able to look more openly to this but that was a different story what a what a the reason I'm bringing Masters is because it was all German Shepherds and for some reason tracking and I don't think it was that easy tracking but all of the dogs were very skillful at tracking and we were all watching each other and appreciating the the skills of the handlers and the dogs and and it was beautiful um well the good organization yeah it was a super tournament yes extreme extreme uh um conditions yeah the Heat and everything yes yes but then you see a dog with very good understanding and good ethics working through problems it was some and and because we all were somewhat on the same level we were able to appreciate it what every other person was doing I think it was a very special tournament and it's very unfortunate that they don't have this anymore um I I want to ask you help our work how do you feel how do you feel about people that live way out of having access especially in the states doing certain things by themselves there is always this like how much and what can you do by yourself as far as protection training with your dog yeah this is something what I also suffer I don't have a good helper at my house yeah in in my uh around and uh in the past it was different I I educated lots of Helper but at the end nobody is there and people come and I do the help of work with my own dogs you see what I do in two three should States takes me with my dog one and a half year and uh because if I let someone do the work it goes one step forward two steps backwards yeah and and then of course one thing is um good um if the dog has a special age if the gray is already there it's good I can work it my own you know but when you bring up a dog then it's difficult because personal knowledge dams aggression with the Mali it's not that problem because as the Mali you have to work on blue and green if you go to the if you go too early to the gray then either the tail is under the chest or the head helpers or Henderson hospital danger actually because when you say that it's easy with the Mali that's a real danger and it happens all the time because the malice looks like it it is

so young offers so much that the helper is like oh I can do so much with it and before they even realize they've burned the dog they kind of pushed it too far when we talk about these two races um we must point out there is a Mali there's a shepherd most overlap yeah and the breeding over the shepherd goes nowadays more and more to the Mali type yeah and the Mali breeding with the good people they try to bring in a better nerves yes what are the different I have a I have a talk about this and normally when I do a shooting seminar I talk more about this problem here in the trekking seminar I I blocked it out um the Mali has a lower threshold has a very nice green and a very nice blue well it's high adaptive behavior and if you do something he tries to please yeah and with much activity but much activity much activity Better Body quick movement quick changes and so this is the advantage of the Mali and as I said in the seminar when I I'm kidding about this should be happiness in the work now sport is never happiness part is limit yeah and Mali is on the limit uh it's typical I'm talking about the typical of course is on the limit when he has a conflict in the green well and you saw this here with the young dog we worked here you just move a little bit with the with the uh with the prey and then the dog is holding the harness and he starts show gray for the conflict yeah so and um it's for me it was interesting when I saw the training with Matthias with his friends and his malice they have quite clever they start from the beginning uh they're working the gray but not connecting with the biting so they work the greatest stand there make defense attraction and the Mali gets used to this like this young dog here and I work he starts with it with his sticker and goes out and wants to bites the stick and when you put the Green in the front ground yeah uh you can the dog gets used to this attraction so and what they do it was so smart and so clever they just work the gray make a short break minimum three seconds take the the sleeve and then they start only with the green and make the biting with the green and so they're separate it once uh that's not the work you should do with a Shepherd because um you need the limit the Mali is on the limit if he doesn't get the prey and if you do a little bit with this stick and so then he's over the load and goes out and and isn't hectic and tell me tell me just a little bit quickly about what what you mean by limit just so so everybody understands what what we are saying gray and blue has the same attraction it's the loadability yeah it's a conflict yeah if if you put the um put a high dose

on compulsion on the dog it goes to Blue if you put a low dose it becomes hyperactive so the limit is where it turns yeah okay you increase the load the load the loudness and then it tasks for and then stretching aggressive and when you do more it goes to avoidance yeah yeah so and the limit talking about what the nerves can hold on load load loadedness loadability what do you say sure sure yeah yeah and um this is something when you go to this border yeah you have most activity because the conflict brings the gray and the gray brings the power so now when you work with the with a typical Shepherd yeah you have to bring in the gray that's a dark goes to the border of the nerves and then you Channel this in the in the green and with the Mali you don't have to do so much you are not allowed to do so much right if you hit him hard he goes out yeah and if he is overloaded he's sensitized yeah and then he has much more fear he learns quick you see the Mali came up because we have so good techniques in the past where we had no knowledge how to train a dog you needed dogs with much resistance very stable that can take a lot nowadays everybody wants they attack we want a good dog what is a good dog nobody can answer because these guys who said we want the good dog and the strong man with resistance yeah give such a dog to someone nowadays yeah this dog bites the Handler and is put to death this is uh there are so few people who really can handle this old style of dog with a big resistance nowadays with our good techniques with our super learning deals if you do you get positive reinforcement end and end yeah we can handle very good with these dogs with lower nerves and good threshold this is what foreign old friend of mine was a judge in the maliness yeah yeah I met him in the 70s already he came with his colors and colors didn't bark and we pray and I said hey everybody dropped every dog box and uh and so we uh long long story so uh when we joined now with the malice in the RSV 2000 we have to overwork our Matrix so that we can Define the Mali so I went to Africa to Tria and worked it out and ferger once told me hemut you criticize our malice because a low nurse we know we know the advantage of this okay and I said okay you're right you're right yeah if you have this uh see I always preferred in the past uh dogs you have the DDR system five in the middle yeah then you have uh to the three and to the uh six seven eight was that I I preferred always the four dog because when you teach proper and you have lower nerves you have more power yeah if you are not so clever in the teaching you better have dogs with uh

better nerves because you put in more conflicts but that's also very critical for breeding to do to do intelligent breathing that you're looking in 10 and 20 years in the future but I'm super surprised that you actually like this is like this one through five five and foreign Germany in the Eastern European block and everything so how was that even how I was in West Germany that came was that appreciated this kind of we put it in our mind we put it in our RSV 2000 in The Matrix when we do the talent system middle five is always the best but we only have uh up two criterias up three up one and down three down one pretty the same up three up one is more down three the undone one is less and so we with this we rate 60 anatomic parameters and 20 mental parameters this is our talent and with our talent we make a short bringing up Protection work from a good LCC you understand this they always shows the audience how you should bring up a dog in protection the dog gets the advantage that he gets a good bringing up the Handler gets the information that um how he shall handle like I showed here today what is pressing what is champagne finger and how do you stabilize the gray how do you stabilize the blue how do you stabilize green and so it's a win-win situation for dog for Handler and a win-win situation for the club we get the these parameters of the anatomy and of the mental problem and we put it all in a in a database so that we can go from phenotype selection what we have done for over 100 years with this information to the genotype selection when we have this data no other club has in status and um and there is something in the in the odds group they earn money they sell coffee and cake and everything and it's an easy entrance and there is no stress for the Handler because he cannot lose even if he gets no point he earns one now two matings with this dog and this is very good entrance for breeding because with 14 months you can breed so when when does the female get in Season maybe 15 months so with 16 months I can check my female what is her biological uh option and if you rape her for mating and then you have to have at the end one puppy opened with the with the with the kaitas knit with the yes the surgery yeah and then you don't have to put money and time in in training um because this is nothing for for breeding yeah but when I had my inlay yeah with 16 months she got the first mating and I said oh she will kill everything she's so far out she's so crazy and I did nothing she was she stands uh there was a mating and I didn't care for anything I came in the kennel there were four puppies I

came back there were six puppies at the end there were 10 puppies and she was so carefully with the puppies and so I said okay this is something for breeding and I now I put time money energy because from the biting from everything she is talented yeah and this is good for the Breeders you have an early entrance and you can check the biological uh potential of this animal and our breeders for example Hans bodenmeyer he is very creative in this uh he likes us to have a quick sequence of the generations to see what's coming out especially when you make an outcross right yeah yeah breeding is uh so we are very we are very smart not only in trading also in breathing you know DMC also you I think they also have this numeric yes but too complicated they made it I don't know what I did but for I mean I think they're coming back to breeding more stable dogs but I think the system they designed at like the early 2000s they make very best mistakes they created very nervy like Malinois we know it's it's already very active we actually on purpose need to look for a stable primitive kind of dog to constantly to come back in and I think they just ended up more and more through trainability and active and trainability and it turned into dogs that cannot lay down calmly I and I think it was partially because of that um current that they developed and I don't know what it happened it's not so smart what they do they get more and more problems by homo Society you see um the the the the ants are all the same and with this like you create a homosexuality with all the fitness problems you get and uh so the way they act to select always very hard you lose the whiteness of the bass and the wideness of the genetic pool is a very important part for the healthiness of of a um of a race yes because we're not thinking about just this one leader we're gonna think in 10 years and 15 years and 20 years we this was a very nice discussion when we had our qualification for vdh that was knut and there was Albert our president and knutfolks yeah wow and knut and uh of course Albert I have to carry home again because Knute is much more stable in drinking but it was an endless discussion and it was very with two very different meanings knut says he wants to produce puppies you can use and you can use you can use and Albert things more in genetic and whiteness of genetic pool and they struggled and struggled and struggled and struggled yeah it was interesting I just listened and I didn't take part in this discussion but there are two things um two sides of the coin yeah and it was very interesting when they struggled for the truth at the end they were very good friends

because I know don't know how many bottles of uh what kind were they drink no but that's in a way that's what's stimulating and that's how we grow it's important I mean when you think just as you said in your way back in history how how you developed it's the same like we do need this these discussions are important yes if we all agree yeah there is no Evolution no more yeah we have to challenge it we always have to challenge it which goes back to the force-free and the electric colors and it's one thing to say well this is very bad idea we have a better solution but when you say that you have a better solution and you cannot openly come forward and show us because if there is a better solution who wouldn't take it problem is problem is you can stay on four levels in your life the lowest level is your unconscious incompetent so if this is where I first heard this was you talking about this and I I believe it was San Jose's work I learned this in in Australia from luch the guy was that Australia that you told me yeah maybe that's where I have this from Roots there are four levels in life you can rely on the lowest levels you are unconscious into competent if you are there stay there everything is in order happy place yeah happy place no stress yes so and Luke told me if you want to teach someone something you must bring him on level two that he's conscious incompetent this is not nice now this is stress pressure then he works on himself and he becomes conscious competent unless you quit unless many will quit unless you quit and then um uh you have one problem it's still stressed because uh when I teach dog training and the people know what to do they are always one second too late yeah and it's not yet automatic but if you're talented if you work on it I tell this the same to my employees my practice you can get level four like my ANA is um she didn't think because all automatically but she can think if there is a problem and then you are unconscious competent yeah and this is this is as good as level one one yeah because it's stress free and you are happy and this I talked to my employee in the practice when I have the finger in the mouth of the professor from the from the police academy and very smart man I took them out and then he told me and then there is a level five I said hey what's this I don't know I said level five these are competent people which are unwilling to learn these are the worst and you find in these um in the charge of the clubs and everywhere these people who are in the power position and they ignore a different meaning what we talked about yeah they just get information from the people they want

which agree with this and this is there is one more level for me I again like ever since I heard you telling me that impact in Australia I always use it and I actually it's it's part of my it's almost like my introduction to my dog trainer school I actually talk quite a bit about this because it's so important but I came to to another one like for me I have a different level five where it's when there is that point that becomes an art where you can break the rules and you can paint like Picasso that just makes no sense but then you go wow and I think certain people are capable but not everybody and one of the the big things as as a dog trainer is to go through that level one the oblivious stage oh I'm gonna be a world champion I'm gonna be whatever it's a such a good place right but you have to stick through the hard times the two and the three you have to if you have to and and then hopefully with with good commitment and and good uh uh surrounding Community you you grow to level four it's I don't think it's hard to be level four if you don't give up and you have the support system of course Talent there is no we cannot argue about Talent like I cannot paint I cannot sing I can train dogs and I think sometimes people go into doc Sports not because they believe they're good but because they suck somewhere else in their life and they think that this will be the place where they can excel knowing that's the thing knowing that they are not good at it but somehow I I don't know it's so difficult when you when you give seminars this is always my problem even with the school that I have seminars that I teach there is always a person that has this super high motivation but he has no Talent and you know that it's just cannot happen but you cannot say to anybody that you're not good it cannot happen because that you I've learned that lesson I've I've said that before and three years later hey remember me well guess what my dog is now igp3 I'm like okay your dog is igp3 but that doesn't mean that you you have talent for this like like you can paint by numbers but you cannot actually paint I know what you're talking about I have of course the same situation uh especially um at home I have not this super dog sportless I have uh not talented people yeah but if you talk to them about this they accept their problems and their level then it's easy to help them and to improve of course they will never become an either balabana for him or something like this here but they don't want this and this is the most important thing that you

make clear uh what do we want and what Basics they stand yes yeah and then I always tell two things to the people I say I can push you forward as maximum as I can but this goes to your personality you have to change your personality yeah like I I told you the people freeze the body move it this way stay this way no don't move don't become hyperactive if you if you are in Conflict don't make hahaha stop this it's not allowed yeah when you train dogs because doc never understands humor so if you tell it and then I tell another thing to the people if you feel it personally when I criticize you when I give you compulsion like your dog yeah if you then I quit if you accept this that all the stress and all the power I put on you to change your behavior um is a good will to push you forward but tell please tell me if it touches you personally good strategy then tell me before I don't have to do this and for me I quit if it's if if you get angry personally yeah and um then you can treat people in a way that you punish them because I have I've very in very top man he is so busy every training he forgot what he has learned last time yeah yeah and we always start again and then he starts again I said hey hey hey what do you do you destroy everything yeah do this do this do this do this and then he has to obedient and do this and we start from being and what I do in the training I do one only one session parking stitching out of the blind plots and he didn't do the the important things for positive and for reinforcement and for body language and then the whole training is just training this 10 times yeah yeah when happens open we start from the beginning all right trying to create some habits in in trying to create uh you see when when you were at the Army you get drill we had over drill is so drill this exercise drill this exercise and then next time we next next time we drill the next exercise you forgot the first yeah try it and then I learned to be quite patient in the past I CR this conflict creates me gray nowadays I know uh I should sit down and drink a beer yes you'll get with time you get a little better A lot better actually to to evaluate the person not so much the dog but the person is that person capable do they really even understand what it takes to because it's so easy to dream height so easy to be in that level one of unconsciously uncompetent the first 20 years was training a dog the last 20 years is training the people yeah and it's much more difficult but it's more interesting no I mean I think it's inter I I really think it's very interesting to teach a person when you have when you don't need to

worry about the dog let's say the dog component we have a dog that is capable but we need to work with a person and to figure it out what's the limit and how much effort and sacrifice they want to put in because so so often you give so much time to somebody and that is I quit I'm doing I don't know something golf what just gone pop well for me I learned a lot uh what I can use in dark spot in educating employees for my practice there are so many similar things about the techniques about the loadability and the only problem is dogs become better and better talents with employee I don't find talents any longer it's so terrible is the only thing what I what I'm suffering in my practice I would like to have young talented people for this and this becomes more and more different so I think we talked a lot huh we did I think it's time to stop I have this one last thing Talent or hard work what do you mean well sometimes there is the say well if you put the time and if you work hard you can do you can beat Talent or if you have talent but you don't work so hard working hard is gonna beat you so I think I think uh if you complete compete uh nowadays on the top you need a good talent and you have to be professional or or a rich husband that you have a space for this or a rich woman that you have a space for this because um when when you want to compete on the top uh you have to be very busy yeah yeah and anticipate yeah but believe me uh I compete with my dogs quite good on a high level and I'm very lazy for this yeah that's how I I am the same thing if you if you uh I don't want to win because and I just explained my friends uh for example Peter who became the world champion Peter other people also need to become the champion yeah be happy be happy if they win yes because um you will win again sometimes but don't try to um to stabilize this you won because there was also a little luck that was yes super dog there was super training you were busy but the Stars aligned if you if you want to uh cement this yeah you overload yes see if you are overloaded you lose the happiness and without the happiness you will not win yeah I I almost hate to say this but it's it's exactly right like once you can you win few many times in a row yeah

it's done but what is a stake as far as your mental and physical health to do that it's not it becomes no fun and you will sell buy and sell and buy and sell and buy and sell and buy and sell because you know this dog has here a little problem this docket they're a little problem and uh if I want to make sure this is too less for me yeah so uh this is there is so much compulsion pressing on you that you uh must be a a character like that you must have a character like Fritz Beeler that you can stand this I know and he he he's uh he's a different animal yeah Helmut thank you so much like my pleasure absolutely love talking to you okay and uh thank you for coming for me it's amazing thank you now we worked hard for a glass of wine [Music] thank you [Music] thank you [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] foreign [Music] [Music] [Music] foreign [Music]