전문 반려견 훈련사들이 모두에게 알리고 싶은 것: 카말 페르난데스와 개에 대해 이야기하기 #209

The dog, the label they attach to the dog, whether it's the breed label, the rescue label, the rehome label, whatever the label it is that people attach to their dogs, which stops them from achieving the things that they absolutely can. And I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, isn't it? Because that just, that your belief about your dog or about your own abilities, you know, that there's that belief loop. It just impacts your thoughts. It impacts your emotions. It impacts how much action you take in your dog training. And then the lack of action or the wrong action ends up with outcomes that proves your original beliefs. That I am not, I don't have value. I don't know what I'm doing. My dog is stubborn. My dog is spiteful, whatever those are. Yeah, that's, those are two really good ones, Kamal. Yeah. That, and I look back, think back to when I, no, I was always a keener with my dog. My very first dog that I trained formally, like I would come home from class and I would, no computers back then. I would get out the graph paper and I'd make a chart of all the things they told us to practice and how many times we had to practice. And I'd make a square for every time we were supposed to practice in a day. And then I would check that off every time I did it. I was a keener. Yeah. You know, I'm a huge fan follower of what you do. Recallers. I always say I was there with the Brown Recallers, the original Brown Recallers. And it was the misconception that you had to dedicate an hour of solid time to dog training. And it's just that whole five minute thing, five minutes, five minutes, and it's being present and intentional about your training and the way in which you interact and engage with your dog. And what I love about your approach to training and your philosophy is it isn't just about, which is listening to Elliot was really profound because it goes beyond the realms of dog training. Dog training is your conduit to send that message and the methodology and the approaches obviously echo that, but it goes beyond that. And having been around you and seen you, it isn't, this is not just Susan Garrett for show. This is Susan Garrett all the time, 24 seven, which I'm sure Kim loves. Let's not go. Let's not go there. Sometimes it's a bit much maybe back then we, the recallers, the original recallers, we called it the five minute formula. Yeah. And, and that was what we were trying to get across to people. It doesn't have to be an dog training actually shouldn't be an hour.

It should be woven into the fabric of your life with your dog and you do what on the podcast we've called the quickies that you're just getting in those little five minute training sessions. They could be five second training sessions, right? We all have them. So how do you think about managing reinforcement all the time for your dogs? Because it's not just cookies. We all know that. Yeah. That's the, it's, and like, I have no, but just to qualify this, Susan has not given me any priming or this. Say this, it's once you switch your mindset into understanding that reinforcement is all around us and the way in which you engage with your dog, the way in which you orchestrate your dog's life, the way in which you, you see the world through the lens of the dog. Well, it's a game changer. And it's, I constantly, I slightly jest and slightly banter with people that have puppies for me. Cause I actually have a list from the background of puppies, cute puppies, and they'll be obviously going to their homes. It always makes me laugh about, they say on a little Facebook chat, oh, my puppy's been doing X and my puppy's chewed the sideboard. My puppy's chewed the curtain. And I always respond, my puppy hasn't. Cause it's in a crate and a goated community. It's why would I let my dog do that stuff and then go and okay. They're amazing people and I can have, but the point of you go, once you've adjusted your mindset to why would I let my dog do that in the same, in the first place? So understanding that reinforcement always happens is often. And I would say this, I say this literally tonight when I was teaching class, what are you reinforcing? Ask yourself that constant question. Understand that reinforcement, people get so stuck on it being the tug toy and the food in their hand, but nevermind their dog's barking at them. And they, they put the hand down to say, stop barking. And that's it. Bang. The dog's been reinforced. Things like that, or the dog that pulls on the lead and you persist going forward. You're reinforcing that behavior. So many things in which reinforcement constantly happens. And I think that's the biggest thing that people just don't get their head round enough that, which is where, which is why the other option of I'm going to use compulsion because or a versus comes into a question. And this is something that obviously you talked about extensively. That's why it becomes an option because it's not truly understanding that reinforcement is all around us.

And if you can view the lens, sorry, view the world from your dog's lens, you're going to, you're going to be able to change things and not have those issues or understand where the value is and how you switch that value back to you. Like did it, I had a question, somebody that said, ask this about this afternoon about, they've got two dogs and they constantly play how they, they, and the dog won't bring the ball back because it runs off with the other dog. And it was, that's a reinforcement issue. Where is the reinforcement? Where is the value? Let's like try and manipulate the environment and therefore the dog's choices. Absolutely. I was, I had some people, I have a little get together of people on Saturday. We were running courses, getting ready for world team tryouts. And so they're not my students necessarily. And they train differently, obviously. And I think we're at week seven of these get together. And finally I said, because a lot of them are, have these start lines that are not that great. And I'm like, can I just interject that the reinforcement is the jump. Jump. Yeah. That's it because in this, if your dog is really keen on agility and if you're thinking of trying out for the world team, they probably are. Then you've got to realize that's the biggest reinforcement. So you going back and giving them a cookie, you going back and getting them to tug, you going back and saying, all of that is reinforcing the wrong thing. It's just to recognize for the individual dog, what is reinforcement? Like, do you remember my first dog Shelby and it was a rock that was her number one reinforcer. All right. We can go with that. And decaf was, um, what was decaf? It was like water. Ice waters. Yeah. Yeah. Ice water. And, and it is this, it's the, I, the opportunity to chase her mother. So that is, I would say that might even trump swimming. That is the biggest thing. And so it's about knowing what that is for your dog that you can strategically reinforce other things. So I strategically reinforce the start line by knowing the ability to do agility is the biggest thing. And then the ability. And so now I've got probably one of my nicest walk in heel position with any of my dogs is with this, because it's always been reinforced. Not so much with cookies, but with the chance to run. And it's that understanding, obviously this has been raised with recallers, et cetera. That's innate within her. And no amount of you tugging, et cetera, is ever going to substitute because she's a herding breadboard of colleagues. That's her ultimate thing.

And I think that's where often people don't and always appreciate the dog that they have in front of them and the dog that they're training. So, you know, that's going to differ from this to Tater, for example, or for beliefs. They can have very different desires that it's your job as their owner to tap into what does this dog need? What does this dog want? And then utilizing that to get ultimately what you want. Exactly. I'm trying to put in another layer with Tater Salad because I started this game to keep him out of hunting in the woods. I started a game, I don't know, last summer, but maybe the summer before where we, he walks beside me and I count one, two, three, and then I'll throw a cookie somewhere in the deep grass that he has to find it. And I'm like, okay, I don't want it always to be about cookies. So I was going to transfer it to you, pick up this tug toy, only this one little tug toy. You find it on the path, then you give me cookies. It works great in the house, but he's, yeah, no, I need primary right now. I'm not really going to anything else outside. You want me to stay out of there. So it's, it's interesting. Okay. Kamal, as a dog trainer, what do you feel is your superpower? Oh God. Well, this is one I didn't think I actually had. It was actually empathy and compassion. Yeah. And I didn't think I had that, funny enough. And that I've developed that with time and age and experience. I would think to be a cop, you'd have to have some empathy. That's where it stemmed from. That's where it stemmed from. So I didn't have it. And it was being in situations that required a great deal of empathy and compassion. When, you know, it's really tragic circumstances. When you're having to deliver awful news to a parent, for example, is the most extreme end of needing the requirement of passion and empathy. And it just didn't, to do your job at your best. And I have to say prior to that, when I was teaching, I definitely didn't have it. And I would say it's something that I'd say humor. Yeah, maybe. But yeah, definitely. I think that's, that's something that I have grown to develop. And it's something that, again, like all of us, and it's interesting to listen to Elliot, it's something that you have to do daily work on to remind yourself of those key things that, you know, your aspirations aren't necessarily the person in front of you. You have to align yourself with what their goals are, what their ambitions, what is it that they want from their dog? And really dial in from that and appreciate that people are often doing the best they can,

a bit like dogs, in the circumstances that they've got themselves into. And as a dog trainer, you are there as part of their journey and their processes to try and facilitate them moving to a better place. Certainly some of the behavioral cases, people are in a really raw state. I know there was a list of people talking about separation anxiety. People live in really, they almost alter their whole life to accommodate for their dog's behavior because it's all consuming. And it's a, and it's a really life-changing behavioral challenge as are so many reactivity, aggressions. And when somebody invites you into that, that process, that journey, however you want to articulate it, to me, that's a, that's something that should be treated with the utmost compassion and respect and empathy to do the best you can for them. And always be willing to put down your, your ego, I think is a huge thing that I think dog trainers can often suffer from. And we're only, you know, a great trainer that I was a huge mentor to me always said, you're only as good as your dog on the day. And that's a great thing to remind yourself, irrespective of the level that you're at, you're only as good as your dog on the day. At the end of the day, the dog's got to do the best it can in the circumstances that you have chosen to put them in. Give them a break and remind yourself that at the end of the day, as amazing as they are, they're a dog. And they're doing the best they can. They're an invincible creature that's infallible. I think ego as well is something to remind people of as well. Huge. I think that for me, the, the evolution or the fanning of the flames of empathy for me, because it was not my strength 20 years ago, I always had empathy for dogs. That was never a problem for me. And that empathy for dogs is what taught me to have empathy for people. And, and yes, and I think that's why we all have dogs is that they help us rise to our highest self and to. And I think that often people that have that gravitate to an approach training that allows them to extend that. But I think that, and this is something beyond just dog training, it's true. If we could be kind to our dogs, then often we should be kind to each other. And I think that's something that we all need to do work on, reflect on ourselves. And I include myself in that statement. None of us, I'm certainly not perfect. It's a, and to remind ourselves that everybody's going through their stuff. And I think that being kind is a huge thing that we should always remind ourselves to be. And I think that's part of the evolution as well is when we are truly reinforcement

based trainers, we become reinforcement based people. And that kindness is to people, even that can't hear us when they're cutting us off in traffic. So our language towards them, because I love the line from Wayne Dyer, and I've said it on my podcast before that when you squeeze a lemon, all that can come out is what's inside and that's lemon juice. What comes out of you at times when you're pressured, that's what's really inside of you and examine that. Because is that what you really want to come out? And it happens behind a keyboard. It happens on a phone. I was on hold for so long today. But that's where we can show up at our best to our dogs is when we can show up that way to everybody. Absolutely. So thank you, Kamal, for being here. Swagger says thank you. And he says, come on. Oh, best boy. Over across the pond. Hearts, everybody for Kamal. Not for you, Susan. Just on a final note. Thank you for all that you do. I'm probably going to do you out of a lot of money here by saying this, but you can watch Susan Garrett's podcast and probably train your dog without doing any of her courses. However, I have to preface that by saying I'm probably on all, I've done all of Susan Garrett's courses. So I'm contradicting myself here, but you are a game changer. You are changing the way people see this world. And for that, massive. Thank you, Kamal. I appreciate you.