E76: 헬렌 로러(Hélène Lawler) - 긍정적 강화로 허딩 가르치기

They both have started their herding training and are showing great promise. I'm really pleased. And Griffin is also doing... He's been very slow to mature. So we've been doing Rally, and he's been my introduction to Rally, and I'm really enjoying that a lot. We have a lot of fun with that. And then I have Kess's second litter of pups. I kept two back from that litter as well, Bregan's and Jest. And they're seven months old. So they're just... They're showing lots of interest, but they're not old enough to start training yet. So right now, they're just being feral puppies on the farm and having a good life. And then I have Aoife, who I imported from Ireland last year. She's a Border Collie. And I think I mentioned all the others were Border Collies as well. And Aoife is 14 months old. And I've just started working with her. And I'm really excited about her prospects as a working dog. She's totally new lines to me and something completely new and different and really fun and great. So I'm very excited about her. And then I have my Kelpie, Holly, who is the one who has put me on this whole journey of positive reinforcement herding training. And she is eight and still going strong and doing well. We do some stock training around the farm. And she's really good at nose work. And we've been dabbling in barn hunt. And she's also very athletic and loves to do tricks. And then finally, I have my guardian dogs, who are Maremas, Mikey and Juno. And they live full time outside and patrol the property and care for the sheep and keep them safe because we have an awful lot of wolves around here. So I need some good guardians. And they've actually been a lot of fun. They're good farm dogs. But they're just as trainable as the Border Collies. So I have some fun doing foundation stuff with them as well. Excellent. So you mentioned a lot of wolves. Where are you based? I live in eastern Ontario, rural eastern Ontario. So we have bush wolves. So they're coyote-wolf hybrids. They're probably about a 65-pound animal. And they have very little fear of humans and a taste for livestock. And I have taken the approach of having a good hard defense. So I use electric fencing and guard dogs. And that's been working quite well to convince them to just go and raid other farms. So yeah, it's working quite well. So how did you wind up in this world? You know, kind of what got you started? And what got you started specifically in herding? Well, it's a long story. I'll try and make it brief. When I was in undergrad, I had a neighbor who had a dog who, you know, undergrad student didn't take very good care of his dog.

So I used to sneak over and take the dog for walks when he was away at classes. And I fell in love with the dog. And then he very wisely rehomed the dog. And I didn't know that was happening. So I didn't get a chance to ask for her. So I went out and looked for my own dog. And I ended up finding a Border Collie puppy who I named Jake, who ended up being the love of my life and my best friend. And together we went on an incredible journey for 14 years, traveled extensively. And he was one of those, you know, some people get like the really challenging dog of their life up front. Or he was the perfect dog for me. He was just super smart. And he was this incredible teacher. So I learned so much from him about training. He was like the littlest hobo. He was a campus dog. He used to just come to class with me, sit outside and wait. Back in the day, this was 1989, you know, the laws were not quite as restrictive as they are now with dogs. So, you know, he just was everywhere with me off leash. We'd go into the pub. We would go shopping. He'd wait outside stores. You know, I just took him everywhere. And he was just one of those traditional old school Border Collies that just kind of fell into place and did everything I needed him to do without me really having to know much about training. And then he ended up, he was sort of like my live business card. Everywhere I went, people would be like, wow, you know, your dog's so well trained. Can you teach me? So I started getting into teaching other people because of Jake, which wasn't necessarily the most effective way of teaching. But I figured it out. So I did end up doing some, you know, teaching other people and I got into it quite seriously for a while of being a dog walker and trainer. And then went in a different direction after that, after doing that exploration for about a year or two. And one day I was traveling across the country with Jake because we traveled extensively all over North America, girl and her dog. We were at a truck stop. And of course, Jake was off leash as usual. And he was sitting on the picnic bench next to me while I was having lunch. And suddenly he just took off and very unusual for him. And I raced after him and what he had taken off after was a big tractor trailer load of sheep that had pulled into the truck stop. And he did an outrun and stopped the tractor trailer. Wow. And I had in that moment the realization that my dog had missed his calling. And I had a pang of sort of regret that I was never able to let him do what he was bred to do.

So I promised myself and Jake in that moment that my next dog would get to work sheep. At that point, Jake was eight and we were living in big cities and it was just not an option for him. But I did hold true. And so fast forward a few years later, I guess it was about five or six years later, I was living in London, Ontario at the time. And Jake had passed away and I was looking for my new Border Collie. And I found Hannah and she was working bread and lived about 45. Her breeder lived about 45 minutes from me and had offered to train me to use to do stock work with her because she wanted to see her puppies out working sheep. So that's how I got started. I was actually so excited about it that I took lessons for a year before Hannah was ready to get started. Before she was even conceived, I started taking lessons, waiting for her, the breeding and then waiting for her to grow up. So I went and I worked the farm with her breeder and learned how to manage sheep without a dog, which is actually an invaluable skill for anybody who wants to hurt. I strongly recommend it. And yeah, I've never looked back. So what got you started then in positive reinforcement training? Have you always been a positive trainer with kind of that approach or would you consider yourself a crossover trainer? Kind of how did that piece of it come into play? Well, yes, I would say that I'm a crossover trainer. Back in the 1980s, when I first started training, it was all alpha rolls and collar pops, unfortunately. However, I have always used some positive reinforcement in my training. I was one to always use lots of praise and food and things like that. So I guess technically I would be considered a balanced trainer by today's definition. I don't love that term, but I know that's how it's used today. But I definitely did was not exclusively positive in my training by any stretch back in the day. Then so after Jake died in 2004, I wanted to do something in his memory. And I did a bunch of research and I found Glen Highland Farm Border Collie Rescue in New York State, which was close to me where I was living at the time. And I thought I wanted to make a donation in his memory. So I went to check them out and ended up falling in love with the place and staying and doing a bunch of volunteer work. And there's a long story around this that I won't go into right now, but I ended up adopting one of the dogs. Not surprising when I was there, Ross. And Ross was, he passed in April of this year. So we still kind of adjusting to that change in my life.

But he was a huge, tremendous influence in my life around positive reinforcement. He was a dog that had a unknown background, but showed incredible fear and a lot of rage, a lot of anxiety and a strong willingness to try and control the world through a lot of bluster and aggression. And I very quickly figured out that he couldn't tolerate anything other than positive reinforcement in his interactions with me. I had to build trust with this dog. He was just so ready to be defensive about everything. And I just had to figure it out with him. I didn't even really know what positive reinforcement training was in any sort of clear definition of the word or even as a philosophy. It was just how I had to relate to him looking back. I now see that that's what it was. So he really got me to think outside the box of how to work with him. And it also, working with him also got me hooked on rescue. And so I started doing work more locally to me at this point in Ontario with other rescue groups and found a fantastic mentor. Her name is Cindy Bott. And she runs Border Collie Rescue Ontario. And she really opened my eyes to a lot of positive reinforcement methods. She was completely, she still is to this day, completely dedicated to this philosophy of working with dogs. And so she taught me an awful lot. And that's how I really got launched on the path. So today, kind of how would you describe your current philosophy or your current training approach, I guess? Today, I try to be 100% positive reinforcement based in my training. I have to admit that I'm not always there, but that is my intention and my goal. And I'm always striving for it. Working on a farm, running a farm, there are always things that happen that are beyond my control as much as I try and manage things. So I have, I try to have really good fencing, I try to have a very good system, but I have livestock and I have Border Collies. And sometimes things go south. And so sometimes I'm not always successful in being completely positive in my approach. But whenever I do encounter that, I see that as a failure on my part. And then I spend some time thinking about how I can make sure that doesn't happen again, how I can work through it, how I can train it, how I can better set up my management. So my general philosophy is to be 100% in practice. It's something I'm striving for. So I know on your website, you kind of talk about force-free herding. And you had this kind of nice write-up about it. Can you just explain what that phrase kind of means to you and where it came from? Sure.

So force-free herding is a term that I came up with in discussion with some other people around it. We're trying to find the best way to describe what we're trying to accomplish here with developing a new method of training dogs to herd stock. And I almost think that fear-free might be more apt than force-free because sometimes we might actually use, depending on how you define force. For example, I will actually use a long line for some of the work that I do. So, you know, the dog is not completely at liberty. So it depends on how strictly you want to stick to the term. But the general idea is to avoid the use of aversives or punishment when teaching dogs to work stock. So that's my main goal. And that has come about because when I was training my dogs to work sheep, basically there's a lot of aversive pressure used on the dogs to get them to do what we want to do. And the reason for that is that they get into these fairly high states of arousal. And we need them to be able to think clearly and respond to our cues. And to do that, we need their brains to be in gear and functioning. So a quick and dirty way to do that is to use aversives, to keep the dogs a little bit afraid or a lot afraid, depending on the dog, to keep their levels of arousal under wraps and so that they can pay attention and listen. And if you don't want to do that, which I do not want to do that, then how do we get our dogs to keep us in the picture while we're working? So that's the challenge that I've been facing with trying to develop a method of teaching my dogs how to work sheep without using pressure or any types of force or aversive punishments. So you started to kind of answer this a little bit already, but next I was kind of going to ask you how your approach is different from that traditional approach to training a herding dog. Can you just go into that a little bit more? Sure. So traditionally, like I said, people will use an aversive punishment of some level of pressure on the dog to get the dog to keep the handler in the picture. And when you ask, you know, how does what I'm doing differ from how someone would traditionally train? It really depends on the trainer. I know some excellent trainers, I would say there would be very little difference because everybody understands that it's really critical for the dog to be confident and to have a good experience around stock. And I don't think there's anybody who would disagree with that. So people are not wanting their dogs to become afraid around sheep. The challenge, like I said before, is that we need to keep their level of arousal sort of in check

so that they can focus on what we're asking them to do. And sometimes a sharp, well-timed correction can be very clear and give the dog the information that it needs to be able to do the job properly. And the really great handlers can do that and not have fallout from using a correction. But for the rest of us, and I certainly account myself in that group, I can't use corrections and not have fallout. And I have certainly tried and failed many times. So I don't want to take that risk and have that damage to my relationship with my dogs. So what I'm trying to do is find different ways to work with my dog's arousal levels. And that's really the key to developing a dog who can work stock without having to use the aversive methods. And that's what I focus on with my training. So I look at trying to be able to clearly communicate with them and keep myself in the picture through working with their arousal levels around stock. And that can take a lot of work prior to ever going to stock. So I think that's one of the biggest differences, perhaps, that you'll find with how I trained before and how I've trained with other people, is that I put a lot of foundation work into my dogs before they ever go to sheep as a way of making sure that we have that clear communication and they have those skills to be able to keep themselves in a state of arousal that is sufficient to do the work, but not so high that they can't hear my cues and respond to them. Now, I'd imagine as somebody using kind of positive training in a field where it's not yet, hopefully, the norm, there have been times when you've been facing kind of an uphill battle. What obstacles would you say you've had to overcome in the process of learning and now teaching, hurting using positive reinforcement? The biggest obstacles have been, well, first of all, not having a mentor to learn from. So kind of having to figure this out from scratch. And that's been quite a challenge. I do have wonderful mentors in positive reinforcement world. And so I've been studying what they're doing and then trying to extrapolate from that and putting it to play in the hurting setting. So it's not like I'm working in a complete vacuum. Obviously, I've got lots of material to work with. But it's translating that to the hurting world that's been the big challenge. A couple of other things that have been challenging for me is that I have yet to find a really systematic approach to follow, to try and replicate. And everybody I've trained with in hurting has their own method, which is similar to dog sports.

But I feel like in agility in particular, which I know fairly well now, there really is sort of a systematic way of training your dog. And you can break your training into small pieces. You can split. You can break it out. You know, if you want to teach, you know, tight turnings on jumps, you can start that sitting quietly in your bathroom with a cone and have your dog just learn how to go around the cone and then gradually build up to running in the field at high intensity. But with herding, you can't really do that. And so I've had to figure out how to look, break down what my dog is doing into pieces that I can then take away from the sheep, take away from the field and train them away and then bring it back. And that's been very challenging because there's very little of that going on. So it's all things that I've had to figure out on my own. So that's been that's been quite a process. The other thing is trying to really know what I'm looking for when working with the sheep. So what is it that it needs to really look like? And what does my dog need to be doing? And how what is the picture supposed to be? And even understanding that is quite challenging. It takes years and years and years to be able to see what's going on and really understand it and know that you know that the dog is doing things correctly. When is the dog correct? When is the dog incorrect? The dog is usually correct a lot more often than the handler is. So as a green handler, as someone who's I was learning along with my dog, that was tremendously difficult. It's like a green rider on a green horse. There are just so many things to try and figure out in tandem that your brain short circuits. So my poor dogs, they've had to they've had to learn along with me. Now, I said I haven't had real mentors to follow, but my dogs have been incredible teachers. And I think they have taught me as much or more than anybody else, because they really show clearly when they're confused, when they're stressed, when they're when they're clear and confident. When I'm using some doing something that's aversive to them, I've had to really spend a lot of time studying my dogs and their reaction to what I'm doing to understand if I'm doing something that's aversive, if I'm not clear, if I'm, you know, confusing to them when they get it. And so I will do something and my dog will light. You can just see the light go on. And then that tells me, oh, great. I figured out how to communicate this to the dog. What did I just do? And then I have to kind of break that down.

So one of the advantages of having because I have quite a few dogs and I've also I also work with other people's dogs is that I have all these fantastic canine teachers. And so really, the dogs have been have really led me through this. In particular, my Kelpie. She's really been the one who spearheaded this whole process. When you are kind of facing one of those problems where, you know, most trainers who teach herding or train herding with their dogs would turn to punishment or fear. How do you start to work on coming up with kind of a positive solution instead? Do you have, you know, a method that you use or a thought process you have in place? You know, I'd love to just hear a little bit more about your process. Sure. So the first thing I do, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes things kind of go south around here. Sure. So my very first process when I do that is I go, OK, let's just hit the brakes here. So I'll usually end up, you know, picking up my dog and carrying it into the house or whatever and just getting stopping the whole scenario and thinking, OK, what what just happened here? I then say to myself, OK, then use your big brain. You're the one with the big human brain. So that's what you have it for. Figure it out. So I say that to myself all the time, use your big brain. And then that sort of gets me into a good sort of analytical mode. And I think about it and I think, OK, well, what is training? Training. I see training as essentially three things. It's communication, it's motivation and it's ability. So I have my dogs are all very strongly working bread. So motivation is pretty much never an issue with my particular dogs. It can be with other dogs. But I don't have to struggle too much with motivation. They're keen. They want to work. So then then I have to look at communication and ability. Am I communicating to the dog? Is the dog understanding what it is that I am saying or trying to express to them? And if the answer is no, which it would be if they're not doing what I ask them to do, then I always assume that they are not doing it most likely because they don't understand what they're supposed to do. I don't ever see my dogs as being willfully disobedient. I just don't think they are. I think they're just not clear on what they need to be doing. So then I go, OK, well, how can I better communicate? So then I really brainstorm. What can I do? And I don't mean rarely do I ever mean verbally. I mean, you know, it's like, can I can I set things up better? Can I can I change my in the environment to make things more obvious? Can I use different sheep? Can I can I use some props?

Can I use fencing more effectively? Yeah. So I go, how can I better communicate what I want the dog to understand here? And so that's a that's a big part of my process is really trying to break it down. And then the other part of the process is, does the dog, as I said, they have communication, motivation and ability. Does the dog have the ability to do what I'm asking them to do? And that can mean things like, you know, is my dog fit enough to stay and to not be tired while we're working? Do they have the physical capability? I mentioned I have two seven month old puppies. They are crazy keen. They do not have the ability to physically do the work that I want them to do, nor do they have the mental ability to stay present while I'm working with them. So if I put them out on sheep right now, I can set things up to do you know, I can put out a large group of sheep that will be sort of quieter and move slowly so that their little, you know, their soft muscles and and not fully developed legs can still outrun the sheep. I would keep sessions really short and and not ask anything of them. Just let them work on instinct and let them drag a short line with on a harness so that when we're done, I can just stand on it and walk them off the field without expecting anything of them other than just working on instinct. I don't I know that they really can't. They're not capable of really responding to me until their brains have fully developed. And sometimes that can be till they're two or three years old. So I have to really be aware of where the dog is at in terms of their physical and mental ability. And if I feel like that is not where I need it to be for the type of work we're doing, I'll pull them off stock and do things away from stock for a while until we get to that point. Be that be fitness, be it more mental work. I mentioned my dog Griffin, who I do rally with. When he when I we go out to stock, there's nobody home is just one big, fluffy black and white ball of instinct. And so I can't really ask him to do anything. Fortunately, he's got lots of natural ability. So he doesn't you know, he doesn't get into trouble. But I can't really progress his training at this point. So I've just done other things with him. We do we do lots of hikes. We do rally. We do lots of just fun things while his body and brain develop. And if we don't get seriously into training till he's almost three, so be it. So those are my approaches with my dogs. I look at communication, motivation for some dogs, but not mine. And and then really looking at their actual ability to do it.

We're talking a little bit here about kind of how you approach things. And I know you mentioned that you do more kind of foundation work than some other trainers might. Can you share a little bit about how much of your training methods are foundation work that is, you know, before introducing or using stock and how much of the training is actually done on stock? And maybe a little bit about what skills you maybe teach as foundation behaviors. Sure. So when it comes to my approach to using positive methods on for herding, I should be clear, we don't actually teach dogs to herd. I don't teach my dogs to herd. And if I step back for a second, as I said, my dogs are very strongly working bred. So they instinctively know how to herd. They have more herding ability in their tip of their tail than I have in my whole body and will learn in my entire life. Right. So I am not teaching them to herd. Now, some breeds and some dogs actually do need to learn the skills. And those dogs, we would train more mechanically. And that's a different ball of wax and not really what I'm talking about here. What I work with are dogs that are just big balls of instinct that just want to get out there and work. And so I'm shaping that instinct. So what I'm actually working on with the dog is how to put their natural instincts on cue. So there's an awful lot of capturing, basically, and helping them with their arousal level so that they can put two and two together and they can recognize that my cue is asking them to do certain things because often we're going to be asking them to go against their instincts. And so that's what we're really working on. So the foundation training that I need them to do is an awful lot around building my relationship with them so that they want to partner with me. I want to look at their ability to manage their arousal levels on stock and keep me in the picture. I keep saying that, but that's what's really critical. And if they will respond to me, if they can keep their arousal level such that they can hear and respond to my cues, then there's no need to ever use an aversive. So I do a lot of work around arousal, often at quite a distance from the stock, often without even stock around to start and you build gradually to that. So that's a really big part of my foundation work. And then for actual skills, they're really, they need a stop. So that can either be a stop on their feet or a lie down and a recall off stock. And those are the two critical skills that they need before they start doing any formal training. And as long as they have that, I can pretty much work with anything else.

So, yeah. So I do a lot of work on lie downs, on growing levels of arousal and around distraction, and then recalls, and I do a tremendous amount of pre-Mac. Pre-Mac just goes through everything that I'm, all my training is I use, I use pre-Mac as my method for building my skills and my dogs, because typically they don't want anything else that I can offer. I can't give them food or toys when they want a worksheet. They want it that badly. So I use the stock as the reward. And that is an extremely effective way, actually, of building these basic skills. So I can, I have a bunch of exercises that I do first off stock, and then I bring it to stock, but on outside the fence. So they're within view. And then we gradually build up to working right directly on the sheet. But the two critical skills are the stop and the recall, and the rest is all arousal training. And then there are little things like shaping a head turn and, and a few little, little odds and ends, but those come in time that the two, that the critical foundation pieces are those three. The, there's another critical piece that I should mention. And that is that we need them to have, I like to use the term dynamic impulse control, which to me means the ability to control their impulses, have self-control, whatever you want to use, whatever terms you want to use, but while the dog is in motion. So we do an awful lot in sport training around having a dog who can hold still around distraction. But in herding, we really need them to be able to stay, to maintain their impulse control while in motion. And that is also a key piece of the foundation training that I do with my dogs. I compete in tri-ball. So it's just like, I work a German Shepherd, who's obviously a herding dog, and tri-ball. And it's interesting to see the, the tie-ins, I guess, to some of that stuff. It's really interesting. I know people who say that that would be a good sort of foundation sport to do. I've never done it myself, but I think that that could teach your dog some good skills that would be translatable from what I know of the sport. It's definitely not the same, but it's interesting just from a, a lot of dogs do have arousal problems around the balls, especially herding breeds. And there's just lots of kind of interesting pieces there that I could see having some carryover. I'd be very interested. I've never had a chance to test my dog on stock, but I think that would be a lot of fun to take her out because she's got the tri-ball training. So it would see how much it kind of holds up, you know? Yeah, that would be, that would be really interesting to see.

I trained Hannah. I didn't have sheep for Hannah until we were already competing at the open level, actually. And so I never told anybody this because I would have been laughed at, but I used to take a basketball out and I would, she would herd the basketball and I used it to lengthen her outruns. I have no idea if that actually translated, but it gave me something to do at home. So I would just send her and she would do an outrun on a, on a basketball and lie down and flank back and forth around the basketball. So it really brought out the instinct. So I thought, okay, I'm going to work with that. That's so interesting. So I know you're doing a webinar for FDSA and this stuff. It'll be next week when this airs. Would you mind just kind of sharing a little bit about what you plan to cover? Give everyone a little insight into the topic? Yeah, sure. So the webinar is going to be kind of diving deeper into what I've just been talking about. Looking specifically at the intersection of sport training and herding. What crossover there is, how we can apply what we know from sport training to prepare our dogs for stock work. And also where some of the pitfalls might be. Some of the sport foundation training might actually be counterproductive to stock work. And at the same time, how stock work can help with dog sports, which is something that I have found. When I first started doing herding training, I had also recently discovered agility. And what ended up happening was I did both sports with Hannah. And I couldn't tell anybody in the herding world that I was doing agility because they all thought it would ruin her for herding. And I couldn't tell anybody in the agility world that I was doing herding because they would all say that it would ruin her for agility. So I just kept my mouth shut and did both sports completely separately. And what I found was that they were very complimentary. And, you know, Hannah's confidence in our teamwork just blossomed through agility that translated to working on stock. And her, you know, ability to focus on me, her dedication to the job, her start line stays, all these sorts of things were just phenomenal from herding when we took it to agility. So I found that the two sports just really complemented each other beautifully. And I think more and more people are discovering that now. However, there are also pitfalls. And there are things that we do in both that can have some fallout. And I think that that might be good insight for us around how to change our training across the board. And so that's what I want to talk more about as well.

Now, obviously, during the webinar, you won't be able to cover everything. No, I could talk for hours and hours and hours. Hey, most of us dog people can, right? Especially about our sports. But I do know you have your own site where you talk about some of this stuff. Do you want to kind of just share where folks can go for more information? My site for my dogs is Kinnick Stock Dogs, K-Y-N-I-C Stock Dogs dot com. I also have a Facebook page with the same name. And I'm just getting up and running my dog training site, ShapingChaosDogTraining.com, which may be live by the time this airs, I'm hoping. I also have been in discussion and planning about starting a FENZ herding group on Facebook. So that will hopefully be a great resource for people down the road in the near future. Yeah, that would be awesome. So the way I tend to end every episode with a first-time guest, I've got my three questions here. The first one is, what's the dog-related accomplishment that you're proudest of? I had to think long and hard about this. And I have quite a few I'd love to discuss. But in keeping with the discussion around herding, I'm going to focus on that. And my proudest moment in herding was competing at Grass Creek Sheepdog Trial, which is actually ongoing this week. And I was there a few years ago with Hannah. It was the competition we moved up to open in. And it is one of the most difficult and prestigious sheepdog trials in North America. There are no novice classes in this trial. It is just purely open. And people come from far and wide and even overseas to compete in it. And you're in there with the best of the best. So it was very, very intimidating. And really, I was just proud of myself to be able to find the courage and have a dog who I knew I could count on. And we were such a strong team that no matter what we faced out there, I knew that we would hold it together and do a good job, do our best. So I went out there with Hannah, knowing I could count on her, who is as cool as a cucumber in the field. And this dog, she just loves to compete when I don't. So she really helped me with all my trial nerves and so on and so forth. She's just amazing. She just loved the crowds. And she just loved the attention and the cameras and so on and so forth. So anyway, so at this competition, you get to run twice. And the very first time we went out, it was early in the week. It was on a Wednesday. And there weren't that many people watching. And it was the work week. So we just went out and we worked our dogs. And I said, OK, I'm just going to pretend like I'm at home. And I set myself three goals.

And the first one was that I wasn't going to lose my dog. So I didn't want her going out and losing her sheep and running after them and me having to walk down the field to go get her. I didn't want to lose my sheep and have them go bolting off into the woods. And I didn't want to lose my cool. So I sent my dog. And she's so great. And she got her sheep. And she didn't lose her sheep. And she didn't go running off after them back to the set out. And she brought them to me. And I was so proud of her. But I have to say, I was pretty stressed. And so by the time she got them to me, and I was so relieved. But I started to stress enough that I started losing my cool. So I thought, OK, I'm just going to call it quits here. And I turned to the judge. And I said, thank you. And I exhausted the sheep. And I told my dog how great she was. And we left. And we celebrated. And I thought, OK, this is great. That was good. But the next run, I'm going to add one more thing to my list of things I don't want to lose. And one of that was I was not going to step off the field until we either ran out of time or the judge asked us to leave. So no bailing. We were going to do the whole course the next time. And I showed up. And it was Friday of the competition. And I should say about 10,000 people come to watch this competition over the course of, yeah, it's a big deal. So I wasn't really prepared for that. And I showed up at the competition. And there was this huge crowd. And there was an emcee and all sorts of stuff. And I was like, oh, my goodness. I was so overwhelmed. So I thought, OK, let's do some breathing. And then I thought, OK, here's my issue. I'm out there with the big hats. I need a bigger hat. So I went and bought myself a big hat. So I put on my big hat. I walked to the post. I sent my dog. She got her sheep. She brought them to me. We made it around the course. And we got a score of numbers, not letters. Because in herding, you either get a score or you get a retire or you get a disqualified DQ. So the goal is to get numbers, not letters. So we got numbers, not letters. And I was just so thrilled with my dog. I was really pleased with my own ability to kind of overcome my own inner challenges. And it was just a very wonderful moment. I was thrilled. So that was a huge accomplishment that I'm quite proud of. That's awesome. So my second question here is usually my favorite. But what is the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Again, one I had to think long and hard about. And I know other people have said two. So I'm also going to say two. But they're nothing new. They are train the dog in front of you.

And it's all behavior. And those two have been those those two. I just tell myself that over and over and over and over and over again. It's been absolutely critical in everything I've been accomplishing. It's train the dog in front of me every day. It's different. Forget the dog that my dog was yesterday. Forget especially forget the dog my dog was a few years ago, which I tend to still hang on to and just work with, you know, the dog I have in this moment right now. What does she need? What are we doing? You know, where is she at? And that has just been so critical for my own ability to improve my training. And it's all behavior is so important for staying calm, cool and collected and just being analytical and detached and really taking emotions out of the training, which can be a real challenge in herding in any kind of dog sport. I'm sure as you and all the listeners know. But in herding, it's really easy to lose your emotional cool. So just saying it's all behavior and understanding that at a deep level has been really, really helpful for me. Excellent. The last one, who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Lots and lots of people. Again, and I'll keep this focused on herding. And I'm going to say Amanda Milliken. She is one of the giants in the herding world. She is local to me, which I'm very, I'm very lucky about that. She's the person who has put on the Grass Creek trial that is running right now. And her dedication, passion and commitment to the sport and her breed is her commitment well beyond her own performance. It has just been amazing. She's just an incredible woman for all that she's accomplished in herding and border collies in general. And I've really admired that. And I've taken inspiration for how hard she works and how hard she's trained. She, I bought my first border collie from her in 1989. And she was competing back then. She'd already started Grass Creek. That was 29 years ago. And she'd already run it for two years. So she has been in this for the long game. And I just, I just love to see people be successful and know that persistence pays. And so I've learned a lot from that. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's been such a pleasure and an honor to be here. Aw. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sarah Streming to talk about her household's latest new edition, a border collie puppy named Watson. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice

to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.