Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 76: Karly Brandimarte and Chad Hunter

Um I know what you do. You know what I do? Um, however, for the for the audience and and as I said a little bit selfish on my part here, tell us a little bit of of background. I know like from from where I go as far back I it seems like it was about 2010 or so when I started to hear more and more of your name and eventually you became a a extremely influential person in the in the NA community. But just give me give us a little bit of of how how it all started for you guys and and eventually how the two of you came together and >> yeah it's uh it's funny because Carly just asked me she goes she goes she goes what's your relationship with Ivan and I said honestly I don't know if I've actually ever met him in person but we've talked so many times over the years here and there and just knowing who you are and I've built my name up for a long time now in the sport of ring. I know you attempted ring for for a while now the last uh in the last 10 years and I've reached out and congratulated you. You've reached out and congratulated me and we've just always had that mutual respect for each other and always just uh followed each other's journeys and it's been it's been so cool and that's why we're we're honored to be here with you uh on the podcast. >> Yeah, I think it's uh it's really kind of you know I I'm sure it goes the same with you. We recognize regardless of sport, we recognize commitment and and what it takes to stay in these games. And and I think that's kind of where our mutual respect and and everything comes from because of that understanding that, you know, there are no lowhanging fruits in this game. it and it takes people not to sound snobby but it takes people kind of at this level to be able to mutually understand that because a lot of people don't understand it you know I know it's uh it's hard for sure. >> So tell me how how did it start for you? So for me it started um I actually believe it or not I started in uh uh Schutzen with my border collie um when I was about 11 12 years old. I was doing agility and saw some Schutson stuff and did some shenen just fun. Did a BH with my board colleague. >> Um learned to get uh put on a sleeve, catch dogs, just was always my passion. Grew up around horses and dogs and I always always led to dogs. All with Arizona. >> Oh, yep. All this here in Arizona, believe it or not. Born and raised in the same house I'm in now. So, this has been a family legacy for about 45 years now. And when I got involved with that, I I started uh uh working for a dog training facility actually next door to me here for for a long time and and helping uh with that business. And uh we

were working a handful of uh uh shenon dogs and personal protection dogs. And I just always loved to be the decoy. I always wanted to put on the sleeve. This is before I even knew what a suit was. And I always wanted to work the dogs no matter what. >> And one day when I was about 18, I got a phone call um from somebody that said, "Hey, I heard uh I heard you're you're passionate and talented with a sleeve. Do you want to try French ring sport?" And I said, "I what is that? I don't I don't I don't know what that is." And they said, "Well, if you if you're interested, why don't you come out and check it out?" Long story short, they said, "Here's a suit. Put on the suit. This is a cone. Stand behind the cone, and when the dog comes, just move, and you're going to catch the dog on your leg now." I said, "Oh, okay." I said, "So, where does the dog bite?" And they're like, "It's French ring. The dog can technically bite you anywhere." And I said, "What? You mean I don't I don't just present the bite and they don't bite here? Like, what do you mean?" And that's that seems so scary to me. And that was it. They sent this dog on me. It was a very experienced ring three dog that had a ton of experience and they sent the dog on me and the first bite that was it. I that was it. That was it for me. I said, "Sign me up." And before you know it, I was looking for my first Malininoa. And obviously I had had experience being around working dogs with uh hurting dogs for so long and understand the respect that comes with that and obviously training dogs, pet obedience, things like that. I got involved with French ring. Got my first Malininoa and went through the the ins and outs and trained with this person not trained with this person and what about this and oh man I trained this wrong and you know everyone says we always mess up our first dog but I love that dog dearly still still to this day. She she passed away two years ago when she was 16 years old >> and she taught me everything. That dog taught me everything. And I took her to ring three. It wasn't the prettiest ring three but guess what? We did it. And from there on out, I knew exactly how I was going to build and go from there. And I wanted to I when I dove in, just like I do everything, I dove in very heavily. I want I want to be a decoy. I want to >> Exactly. I I kind of want to hear your statistics on this cuz I I I don't I'm not sure I have them all, but I know you did I mean, you did decoy. I mean, of course, you do training, but you also have done a a good amount of of decoy work at competitions. I know you won. I I don't know how many times.

>> Three. I won three three national, right? >> Yep. Three national championship. >> Different dogs, right? Exactly. >> Three different dogs. The only person that ever do it with three different dogs. Um, yeah, it's it's been done before, winning the championship three times, but it's never been done with two different dogs, let alone with three different dogs. >> Um, and all dogs that are now um I won the championship with my Estro's grandmother. I won the championship with my Estro's father and my other dog, Escobar that I had. And this is another crazy thing like we have we have quite a few things in common besides that we're you know doing different sport but we we are definitely obsessed with the breed of Malininoa. You and Carly do everything together which I'm going to want to get some in and outs on how that works for you and I can share my experience. I I want you to go first on that one. >> Uh but Carly, congratulations. And And that's like I you know, we were still I I don't know if we were still in in Europe for the FMBB when this >> Yeah. >> happened. And it was just mindblowing, you know, like I'm I'm like excited on one side here and then I'm like, >> but you know, we've done this in FMBB. We've won this like we we have shown that we can do this. What you guys did in France that that was uh you know I I just really I get goosebumps just just thinking of it. So tell me tell me your story >> before we get with to my estestro. Okay. >> Yeah. Um so but it was it was actually funny cuz I think it was one morning we were all in our Airbnb when we were in France and I had seen all the videos and all the pictures of your wife winning. And I was I said to Chad I'm like did you see this? This is incredible. Like that's that's so cool. Like I got goosebumps looking at the pictures of your wife. like it was do you remember I was like that's so cool. >> Um so congratulations to you guys. >> Um my story is not as long as Chad's by any means. I I lived in New York up until I moved out to Arizona. Um, I had a working line German Shepherd that I had gotten and I was in the region where there was I don't want to say there was French ring, but there was some people doing French ring >> doing Yeah. >> Yeah. There wasn't like a lot of clubs, but I had some resources and so I started with a German Shepherd in French R. Um, it was kind of similar to Chad in that I found the sport and I was like, "Okay, yeah, I'm literally dedicating my entire weekends traveling. I had to travel like 3 hours to club every weekend and I did it every single weekend. Um, and I got her to ring one. She was a ring one champion in in Nor.

Um, but that was kind of it for me. I I bounced around from some clubs and kind of just climbed the ladder in New York. I tried to find people that could continuously teach me what when I kind of outgrew someone or someone's club. Okay, I went to the next step and then the next step >> and then uh >> I changed countries for that reason. >> Yeah, exactly. So, it's like I appreciate every step of every club and and everyone that's taught me and I just I guess I'm kind of like Chad when I when I get involved in something I put 110% effort into it and that's kind of been that's been ring for for me. So, I have had one other dog before my Astro, but technically Chad probably wouldn't even count her because she's a German Shepherd. >> Yeah. And you guys also just like us, we we I mean you breed uh um Malinoas, we breed Malinoas. There's just some weird similarities, you know, like I guess but >> it's not that common like like our situation, how how comparable it is, but it's not it's not that common. >> Tell tell me guys about the kennel. uh how how long and because that's that's a accomplishment on its own >> you know I mean this is this is like a statement I mean there is a and uh Eric's dog is also from the kennel so we have >> litter me to my astro >> okay yeah I didn't know that it's a litter mate actually so we we have two dogs on the top of the game just few weeks ago from your kennel. >> Yep. >> I I just need to pause here for everybody to to send this in. You know, >> it still hasn't I don't know if it's hit me. I think it either already did hit me and it's way past or it hasn't hit me yet, but >> it's uh >> So, where do we go? Where do we go with that conversation? Do we talk dogs and breeding and and do we start comparing why French ring I can I let let's go first with the history of the the ring sport and and and why French ring and and how it compares um to to the other sports. What what what like I I got it. You you put the bite suit on. You got a bite from a dog that season that knows how to to take you. >> What What drove me to ring sword? What what >> Yeah. my my entire life. I mean, currently, I mean, the way we know how it goes. We wake up, we we we have a we try to make a bet now with our friends when we go to dinner. The first person to talk about a dog is buying dinner and it it never works. Like, it's not possible to sit down and not talk about ringsport or talk about this and like it's it's just it's our life. You know how it goes. um our our life our our our our new house that we just built is built around ring sport, built around dogs, um built around just you know exactly how it goes. Uh

so why ring sport? So for me >> I did obviously I I'd played in in Schutzen obviously not at a competitive level by any means but just played with the sport and admired >> enough to understand it. >> Enough to understand it. Um, believe it or not, I competed in Mandio ring before I competed in French ring. I did do Mandio for about two years in the very beginning about uh 16 years ago. Um, and I what what fed me I'll I'll try to keep this as simple as possible. The thing I love most about the French Ring Sport is the fact that in my opinion it is the true test of dog and decoy. It is a test of that dog against that decoy. that decoy, especially a ring three face attack at a selectif or a final championship in France is the biggest that is the biggest test of any dog in the entire >> and for people that are not familiar with French ring briefly explain what what do you mean by by what is test and how much freedom the decoy and what's the >> what is actually the dynamics between decoy and and a dog cuz that's really what's about >> what differs this sport from any other dog sport is even from mondo ring which there's a lot of similarities from French ring to mondo ring French ring sport at the highest level so ring three it is dog versus decoy so when that dog is sent down the field whether it's a guard affirm whether it's a face attack flea attack that dog is sent down the field that decoy is trying to eskeeve the dog so trying to miss the dog and trying to prevent the dog from biting in any way they can within the rules. Right. Obviously, there's rules. >> Yes. >> But at the same time, it's it's just a decoy who can put all of those things together and just the finesse and the timing and the precision and the fact that a dog could bite you right here or a dog could bite you right here or have a perfect bite in the bicep or on the knee or really that dog can bite anywhere on that suit. um they don't score, you know, they as as you go on and learn French ring, they don't score the grips in French ring for obvious reasons. >> Reasons, right? >> Good reasons. Sometimes those dogs uh I mean, we have plenty of trials we've been in with my estro and my personal dogs where they've held on with literally two teeth. Just two teeth the entire 15 seconds. And guess what? The dog can get full points just from hold on with two teeth. But that decoy is swinging, spinning, preventing that dog from being able to counter, to be able to regrip. and the job just just to kind of bring a little to add on to what you're saying just for people that are not familiar with the sport. Uh, like the probably the the most interesting part of that

fight, if you call it, between decoy and a and a dog, is that the the judge has a timer watch and it's counting tens of seconds how much the dog will be delayed. and prevent it to get a hold of the decoy. And and for this to happen, the decoy is free to choose strategy that is best strategy that they would assume for that particular dog. And if that means make the dog miss or block the dog or so on. And and the decoys. No, I mean to get to the finals. This is not a Oh, I volunteered to be there. >> Oh, there's lots of blood, sweat, and tears for sure. >> There is a big Yes. Uh so so there is a a very I mean also it's a very prestigious uh um event for the from a decoy perspective for for just to be part of the that cream of the top decoys in the country. This is a whole different skill. And and and one more thing and I let you keep going cuz I I'm so bad I forget. I just think of something and then I will never remember it. >> But but the French ring for for me is probably the closest it gets to martial arts in in human sports. >> Just said it. It's for me it's MMA. >> There is nothing nothing remotely close no other sport because it's it's really like how you would roll in juju on the mat. You can do exactly the same. the the concepts are not that different and I think this is just uh one of the once you understand that that's I think that's when the the French ring really becomes um very different level of of how special the sport is right >> Yep. Yep. I I say like for for me what makes it so special and which makes me so addicting it's kind of like it's kind of like golf for instance like I'm no golfer by any means I'm a terrible golfer but I love to play golf because it's you get that one good hit that one good swing and it keeps you addicted and then it's like man what can I do to be better how how can I how can I change this how can I be in it's it's golf and we all know it's a very difficult sport and now relying to French ring I send my dog down the field and now I have this experienced decoy that's now shown some holes in my dog that I have didn't know about or I didn't see. And guess what I'm doing when I go home? I now have to train my dog to see that picture in the next competition. This, you know, every score sheet you look at, it's not always perfect points every time. And every time you look at that score sheet, okay, my dog got scooped on the defense. Guess what? We're going to go home and work now. My dog uh didn't come up on the face attack when he saw the stick in front of him and he went to the leg and he got scooped low. So now I have to teach him this and how to counter that.

If the stick is here, if I pull this leg, instead of following my instinct, which is to chase prey, I need to take the stationary leg. It just those are the the technicalities of ring that just make me so addicted. >> Yes, the technicalities are just just what you just said that this is this is what French ring is. It's like by far the most technical dog protection dog sport. There is nothing. There's just absolutely no no question about it. And when I you know like it's almost I don't know if I want to I don't know what to say. I I'll say some weird word that people will get upset but but like you know in in IGP like shoot now called IGP the guy will present the sleeve just a little bit with with like let's say the angle of the sleeve is like this instead of like this and everybody made a big deal. >> Mhm. And in French, you teach the dog not not even to have the answers, but to actually anticipate and move and adapt immediately to the next >> whatever that next is. >> Yeah. >> Right. and and it's very uh um it really you know like I sometimes watch and that's kind of I guess the the good thing I I'm really obsessed with all dog sports and especially the protection dog sports and um every time I see something in a let's say being being in IGP cuz it's all so so structured and so detailed but It actually, you know, it's good in some ways, but in another ways it's so robotic that it doesn't allow flavor and you don't see natural, >> you know, like you can really train for for not that you cannot train in in French, but but again, there is much more of a a a sequence that the dog either can predict and anticipate and respond correctly or fail. And uh um in your opinion guys and and either one of you I'm really interesting to hear like but let comparing like I I am sure you have some some ways to compare and and don't feel shy of being really sane at how it is. But I I'm curious and I know it will be very interesting for everybody. Let's let's put French ring against IGP, Belgian ring, Mondur ring and I think we leave everything else aside for right now. But where where is the um the beauty of French ring? And keep that in mind. I'll tell you when I was in the very early I think I don't know was that 89 or 1990 but it was basically when the the Mondu ring was about to form as a Mondu ring and I was in Belgium and my friends just dragged me to tornate to to watch this big thing. I was not even two months in the country yet. So I had no idea what's happening. But I knew that it was a big deal. And

you had this I mean you had all the names that I looking back now I'm like man I I've been around these people you know like Danielle de and Luke Vish is like but I didn't know and but the interesting thing that I want to talk to you about is there were a lot of fights because this was the time when somehow I don't know who but somehow they decided Well, let's see if we can put it all together and make a super program and and have an international program. And it was super idea, but they started to fight of what part of which exercise should be included and why and why not. And so there was a classic lines at the time that you know like the Belgium will say well the French decoy is just playing like a rabbit. Of course, the dog is just chasing them and trying to catch him, but there is no real. Then the the French guys will just make fun the same way about the Belgian guys >> and and I think it's still this is still goes on. But once everybody understands just a little bit above the average level any program, you start to appreciate the the what the program looks for. And the monuing I think if they were to put it together how they were thinking to do it, it would have been definitely the ultimate program. However, the uh it would have been very hard because you would have all the components of an environmental pressure from the Belgian ring, >> including the decoy pressure from the French ring. >> Mhm. And how many people and how many dogs at in the early 90s would have been able to actually say let's do this you know so I think that's kind of how the compromise ended up with Monduring and eventually it started to evolve but um tell me tell me how how you guys see all the the the core of the protection sports right now and And what what are the good and the bad from from each in your opinion in your uh um >> yeah so this is always a controversial conversation as you know depends who you're speaking with but that's why we're here right >> so I have I have a lot of good friends that are in Mondo Ring and listen I have all the respect for anybody dogs IGP Mondo Ring everything you just said the Belgian ring people that I follow I I mean it incredible. Anybody that can work a dog at the highest level is absolutely astonishing. Outstanding. I salute everybody who who who who does that. But when we have these conversations with people and obviously I'm a diehard French ringer. Like that's me. French ring all day long. >> The people make comments all the time. Oh, you know, bring your dog to Mondo ring. Let's see if he's a real dog. Oh, your dog couldn't do that in Belgian ring. Oh, your dog couldn't do this in

IGP. And listen, like everything because and and one of the big conversations and again we're gonna we're gonna go in circles here as we talk about this, but that's the whole point. But and at the end of the day, everyone sees, okay, you have this really good French ring dog, but he's only good at French ring because he knows these exact exercises and that's it. Uh he could never handle the environmentals from Mondo Ring >> or vice versa. you have a very environmentally good sound dog and mondo ring but wouldn't be able to take the decoy pressure and that's why you know the stick hits and those types of things. So when we talk about French ring uh you know we have a lot of like I said I have a lot of very good friends that do mandio ring with their dogs and we when we when we go back and forth I guess you could call it bickering when we go back and forth as hey come on ring and do this. Um, I for me it's it's like we were just saying there's there's really no there's really no test of the dog in regards to their thinking ability, their technicalities, their precision than in French ring, right? Like I said, the eskeeve and setting up for the return eskee and we'll we can talk about this here in in a few minutes as well, but just telling how we prepared the dog for each competition we did to get up to the final and like that's that I think that's a whole podcast of its own because that's it's >> hopefully you guys have time. >> You're like I want to go there plenty of time. So when we when we talk about when we talk about Mondo ring for me and again whoever's listening to this with all due respect I love your sport. Mondo is great but here's what I don't like about Mondo ring for instance. >> Yes >> is I get to I get to cue every single exercise that I'm doing for my dog. Okay that's fine. And some people say I get to queue because the field is different every time and the picture is different every single time. Your stupid French ring dog gets the same picture every time so he knows what the exercise is. Okay, I'll agree with you to an extent on that. And if you cue a single exercise in French ring, then guess what? It's zero. That's it. It's done. It's off the board. You go on to the next exercise. So for me, >> French ring is the most brutal when it comes to following >> the rules like like following the rules. >> Precisely. >> If you're not a good handler, you are going you're going to be penalized for that. you you will be penalized for that. >> Your dog's not even going to do the exercise. It is it can be over just like that. >> That's it. Oh, I want I'm gonna do a throw. >> There is a good reason for that.

>> Yes. And again, another reason why I why I cling to the sport so much and when I went to my first uh again, all due respect to the Mondo Ring people, when I went to my first Mio Ring trial and I watched them cue the sendaway and level one for the sendaway for the dog. Sendaway, sendaway, sendaway, sendaway. They're pointing, they're directing this. Okay, cool. The dog knows it's a sendaway. That's great. Good. But if I do that in French ring, it's that's it. It's over. So, you better be very good trainer and or or both. Know how to queue your dog without being obvious, which a lot of people do in French ring. >> But for me, that's that's >> I think moning is the mastery of of >> cues during the exercises when the legal cues. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, but again, you you compare it to, you know, to IGP and to Belgium Ring and all these other big dog sports we have. It's like there, trust me, there's there's so many things I I couldn't I couldn't fathom having to teach my dog how to track, you know, and and and and to be able to do that, you know, back when tracking was just so I I wouldn't even know where to begin when it comes to that. And all the respect in the world for people for doing that, you know, and that's a big piece of it. and having you know having the French ring um you know for for me the the jumps I I don't I don't know of any other I mean obviously Mondo ring has the same jumps they have the palisade they have the hurdle they have the broad jump but uh the broad jump goes to 4.5 m in French ring and in Mio ring I believe it only goes to four >> um again just little details like that and and just >> they're not little details half a meter of ability to jump is is insanely I mean it puts a >> line in the sand between dogs >> for sure. >> That's that's some that's >> and that's uh what I've learned and part of the precision that I've built for myself in the last especially the last 10 years of of being so competitive and and successful in the sport is okay for instance uh you have three retrieves in ring three. I throw the sock, I drop the sock, and I do an unseen ret, excuse me, I do an unseen retrieve, a seen retrieve, and a throw and retrieve. If my dog chews, it's minus one point, right? And if my dog has a chewing issue, it's minus one point. Okay, no big deal. It's one point. Life goes on. Do you know how many competitions I've been in where the difference of the dog chewing and one point is a difference between a championship or a vice championship or winning the trial and not winning the trial just because of that one point. So again, that's what made me so just intrigued to perfect

things and and and I want this and I I'm going to teach it this way and you know, we we talk a lot about >> the French mentality of training and the American, you know, style of training and let's let's let's be honest, and with all due respect to everyone listening to this, the Americans have training figured out pretty well. And our training can be a little bit better looking, I guess you could say, than some of the old old school techniques, which still work for people great, but we have very good training. We all, as Americans, we have a lot more resources in regards to understanding communication and balance. >> You know what blows my mind? I have to interrupt you here like I think it's it's on point to to be said. It used to be like this is how far back I go, but it used to be that Americans will pay a lot of money to get a good dog and a trainer to make hopefully to keep that dog for a couple of years still competitive so they can do that. That was a while back. It still exists. No question. However, we have moved from this times in a very positive direction of an uh um really understanding doctrining in a in a very more advanced advanced way. I like um again I don't want to insult anybody just as you say this now I'm kind of starting to be conscious about that but but uh um the the overall dog training in United States has just been skyrocketing year after year after year comparing to everywhere else and and the whole idea of you know oh yeah Americans have money and they buy whatever and it's like no this was this was reality but we're talking 20 15 years max things are different now we don't do that we actually uh um yeah we we have a very I think I don't know probably one one of the and it's so hard for us too because I mean look at the states. I mean finding where is your next club that you can possibly go to train comparing to where would be in France or where would be in Germany, you know, like like you can you know like the the sacrifices that we do are very different that I my honest like I really believe that half of the people in Europe if they have to do what we do as trainers in the states to accomplish this level and be competitive in world level events, they would not be doing dog sports. They would absolutely not be doing dog sports. >> A a perfect example, ring three, 400 points, right? Exercises that are 400 points. Ring one, you have 200 points. Ring two, you have 300 points. Ring three, you have 400 points. Okay? A throne retrieve is four points. That and the heel on leash are the only other exercises that are only four points. That's it. Four points out of 400 is nothing. And so the mentality

behind some of these people is it's a four-point exercise. >> Pick it up, bring it back to me or you're dead and I take the sock from you and we go to the next exercise. And meanwhile, this woman here will spend eight months in this chair on the kitchen table with her beer bottle teaching her dog how to hold and bring and and all of this for four points. But guess what? It's changes everything. You have a dog that's happy to do it and is motivated to do it and doesn't chew and is trained to do it the right way and is just so absolutely beautiful and perfected. I love where you're going with this and this is I mean we can we can really talk so much about this because it's not about the four points. It's not about the the proper behavior on the socks or glass case or whatever it is. It's about how a trainer can explain that every little detail matters and then that generalizes in the whole performance because yes healing is for points but how many times you're going from point A to point B during that whole competition and when your dog knows that you are very meticul are very assertive like assertive in a in a good way having a good report that translates everywhere in okay I'm going to ask you to out and guard now or I'm going to ask you to come back and it's a call out you know all that we can argue that comes from that time that Carly takes on the chair and teaching the retrieve to this detail oriented kind of Stop because it generalizes, right? >> Everything. You nailed it on the head. Everything. It's like I said, it's the relationship. For me, it's the relationship with the dog. The dog the dog knows what we put into this, how we put into this, how we train this, how we achieve this. When he made a mistake, we showed him how to do it the right way instead of punishing him to the point to where he doesn't want to do the exercise anymore and taking our time to build something. And you nailed it on the head. It's not the four-point exercise. You're right. It's it's four points, but you better believe that every other exercise is that how that was trained is going to whether it's good training or bad training, it's going to bleed over. >> Yeah. >> Into every other thing else that you do with a dog. And that's the precision. That's again what just makes me so into the style and way that we train is just it's it's everything. It's if I I I don't I don't go onto a field and I've I've had to change this mindset now that I've had had to increase my expectation levels even just for myself. But I go onto a field knowing that my dog is capable of making 400 points. Not okay. I my dog doesn't have this exercise.

We'll just zero that and we'll fix it later. Let's just see if we can pass. And with all due respect to the people that want to do that, there are a lot of people that do that. Listen, I want to go out and I just want to pass and I want to have fun with my dog. I have all the respect for those people because we need those people in the sport too just to those are those are important people to have in >> they're important people and they also give something to their dogs to do instead of >> absolutely >> having dogs losing their mind chasing just you know >> so for sure >> that's not me that's not me that's not her that's not that's not who we are we want we want to prepare everything as best as we possibly can yes there are some some situations where we're we know the dog is capable but this vene this variable, especially in the protection side of things and the protection side of things of of a French ring to where I know the dog is capable of making 30 points on this exercise. But these variables, they might change some things. And guess what? If we have some issues, then we're going to go and we're going to fix those issues. We're not going to say, "Oh, better better try next time." No, we're going to go home. We're going to fix them. We're going to show the dog now that picture and we're going to go out there with a mindset that we can achieve 400 points and the dog is capable of doing that. >> Yeah. >> I can't even count on my hands how many notes that we share to each other on our phone after a competition of okay like I need to do this when I get home. Okay, mystra did this. I think I need to do this with him. I need to show him this. Okay, I didn't like how he did this. I need to prep for this. It's like it never stops. Like I made a post, I think it was like a year ago of me doing a retrieve with my dog and I said like, "Oh, when you make it to the highest level with your dog and you think your training is done, but really it's just starting because that's when I feel like you really start to learn who your dog is with maturity and trials and all that stuff." >> You want to know something that's funny, Ivan? When we go to train at a field in France, we have many fields and wonderful people we train with and we go and we're around maybe some new people, people that haven't met us or don't know us yet and don't really understand, you know, our style of training, the way we do things. And when Carly comes out on the field with a dog that has built a name for himself, let's be honest, and and everyone knows who the dog is. And when she comes out onto the field and she sets her touch pads out on the

hurdle and sets her touch pad out for her retrieve that she's training and people's heads just spin. This is a 19 time ring three dog that puts up these kind of scores and you're still going out here with touch pads >> and food and I'm still training with food >> and she still has food in her pocket to reward her dog. What are you doing? Like people, it it blows their mind, but then when they see the result at the end, >> right, >> their mouth shuts very quickly. >> Yeah. They start to pay attention, don't they? >> They do. >> And they say, "Okay." >> I mean, the smart ones, at least they should. >> Yeah. More people might have food in their pockets now. >> But you know what is the the interesting part about what you just said, Carly, with the you know, going back home. I mean this these are the dynamics that I so get because I live it too, you know, and and often like between me and Natalia when we have this kind of conversation sometimes I have to actually just quiet her down and say, you know, like that was this one time and we don't need to like we really don't need to over fixate on that one time. Yep. >> I'll be like, "Are you worried about this?" And he's like, "No, I'm absolutely not worried about this." But I'm like, "Okay, but I'm worried about it, but I'm glad that you're not worried about it because if you're not worried about it, then it makes me a little bit less worried." >> Right. But Chad, somehow we still have to make them comfortable and and address it even even though it doesn't even though you see that it's not as big of a deal as it it is in in her head, but you still have to, right? So everyone everyone So when I when I go on when I compete myself with my dog, people ask me, "Oh, do you do you get nervous? Do you do this?" Yeah, of course. Like there's there's there's a level of of of that. And for me, it's not necessarily nervousness. It's more so just like >> for me it's it's almost like more excitability now just because I've done it so many times. >> But when I go and I compete, I'm I'm I'm let's do this. Let's have a good time. And on the other side of things, being a coach for her and on the sidelines, I hate more than anything in the world. I hate it. I hate it. People have videos of me at every competition that we've done in France especially, pacing on the sidelines, hands on my head, in my pockets, over here, this side of the field, walking over here, stopping here, watching this, doing this, pale white. Like I just it just it takes the life out of us because but you understand the amount of time and training and commitment at the end of the day is it's her out there but it's it's it's both of

us out there on the field. It's definitely both of you and and and and that really matters. And the more you're in the game, the more you start to realize that those few minutes on the field are re, you know, like there is this I'm going to butcher this big time now, but there was a a very cool saying about you seeing Bald the runner, you know, how he he runs for 6 whatever seconds, but actually how much of his life he spent to run this 6 whatever seconds. >> So that's why it matters for us and it's much much harder to watch because once you're on a field you're your mind is busy with other things. Now you got to you got to perform. There is no time and you got to learn. Okay, this didn't go exactly how I wanted but here is the next exercise. I got to move on to where you pacing by the field. It's the hardest thing. I wish you have a solution and give me some tips on this one because I I am just >> I asked you. That's why I asked you, >> dude. Nightmare. >> Nightmare. >> We should make a blooper of of videos of spacing around the field, you know. >> Oh, yeah. I'm sure >> it could be a 45minute video >> of all the clips combined. I tell him when I'm getting ready to compete like they there'll be like a dog and a half on the field before me and he starts already. He'll come up to me. When are you going to take him out? >> Don't worry about it. Like I don't do much warm-up with him. Okay, don't worry about it. Don't Don't And then I'm like, "Okay, wish me good luck right now because we're not going to see each other." >> And that's literally how it goes. I'm like, "I love you." >> One dog before her. So, 45 minutes of routine. So, one dog before her. I give her her kiss or hug, wish her best luck, and that's it. I I'm gone. I leave her. >> And then I don't want to see him. I really don't want to see him because he >> And she doesn't see me until she comes off the field. >> Very much the same. Like, this is weird. Very much Natal is the same. Although sometimes, not not all the time, she she will correct me here, but there are times where she's like, "Okay, we're done. You need to go away. All right. And I and I go away, but then it's like, but I need you for this. >> Yes, for sure. >> I'm like, okay. >> Yeah. >> You know, >> wait, hold on. Can you take my tug real quick? >> Right. Right. >> Before I go on the field. Yeah. >> And then and then there are those kind of just, you know, questions that they're not really questions. It's just that that time that the buildup and it's like okay what do you think? No, no, never mind. It's like okay we we just have to accept that there is a interesting learning

about performance and not everybody can do it. You know, I I I'm convinced that it takes a special mentality to to handle the psychological pressure because once you've done it long enough, you start to understand that what what what it means and what it takes and and everything comes together. And then the pressure just kind of sunk in to you and you're like, "Okay, I either have to embrace it and I can do this and I'm born to do this or I cannot." And there's people that uh um handle very poorly competitions, >> very poorly. Um, but let's go back to the uh um just the French ring and the the dogs in French ring. What does what does the French ring reveal about the qualities of a dog that that the other big sports may not show, don't emphasize on? So, the f the French expression, I don't know if you've heard this before, but the French basically the way of saying they have an exceptional dog or just a normal dog is your dog has a big heart or your dog has a little heart is basically a way of saying, "Oh, you have a mediocre dog. Your dog has a little heart." And like, and that's been an expression I've heard since I started going to Europe years ago. In France, they say that a lot. Oh, your dog has a little heart. It's a nice way of saying, "Oh, okay. He's >> your dog's shit." >> His [ __ ] >> Yeah. Yes. >> Um, but the qualities for a um, you know, for for a French ring dog, um, I mean, we we were talking about the jumps earlier. Um, there's there's a pretty there's a good there's a great amount of athleticism in in in dogs jumping abilities. You'd be amazed the amount of dogs that are just absolutely amazing and frenching in every aspect, but they cannot jump to save their >> they cannot jump to save their life. >> And yep, they make finals and they go to championships and do those things, but guess what? >> Breeders that matters so much, right? >> Absolutely. I I personally can't I if if if I'm so OCD about the whole situation with the jumps. If my dog if my dog is not jumping max by 18 months old, I'm already stressing out and saying, "Oh my god, we're never going to make it. We're never going to we're never going to achieve anything." That's that it's just for us and and again this kind of >> jumping it not just jumping it but actually not stressing itself that oh [ __ ] now I have to do this again but actually yeah that's one more time of course let's go >> y and not to not to deviate off subject here but to to mention our mentality for this and it's and it's been a huge part of our success is that there should be no reason for us to lose a single point in jumping or obedience. No reason for us to lose a single point

in jumping obedience. And when she did all three selects and I'll and I'll say this quickly again, sorry to deviate. >> No, no, you should run this because u actually it's maybe a a perfect time to explain what it >> want to explain the process to to get to >> the the process to get to the final championship in France. Yes, you have to make five competitions >> which they call pre-selectifs, right? Five competitions, just standard competitions that you have to score 340 points or better and you have to do five of those competitions before a certain time frame in order to qualify for the selects. So, you do those five competitions. Then the select thiefs. If you qualify for the select thiefs, there's three competitions which narrows it down to this year about 180 dogs. And then the top 28 dogs go to the final championship that are the best average of the three selects combined. There's three selects with three juries, the same decoys, the same judges that all there's now seven groups in France that all seven groups will hit within a three-month time frame. And those selects, in my opinion, the selectifs can be more difficult than even a final championship just because those decoys are they're they're testing those dogs and they have 180 dogs to test that are qualified in that three-month period, two and a half month period. They're they're going to test those dogs. >> So when you get to that point and you What were I was just talking about? Yeah, the jump. Okay. Sorry. Excuse me. Sorry. And so, so my point being is that having going into that knowing that we have no reason, especially with her dog, to lose a single point in jumps and obedience, and the only points we should lose would be in bite work. Because let's face it, if a decoy does their job in a level three select teeth or in a level three, they're going to take points for your dog. >> Do not score 400 points. There's a reason why dogs do not score 400 points, and there's no reason for that. And thankfully having having trained and prepared for this, all three select teeths all three selects and her final championship that she did in France, she did not lose a single point in jumps and obedience. And I don't think there's a single dog that did that. And it's amazing because that's where a lot of people lose their points. jumps to obedience and going into it then yes the points that are lost and my mentality is the only points you should lose would be in the bite work because let's face it there's uncontrolled variables and things that decoys are going to do and they're going to take points from your dog and there's no points and again that's that's my

mentality for a lot of things I do my >> go ahead >> no I I was going to ask just kind of going further on this one like like do do you think that um like In your opinion today French ring is it more of a test of the control the courage the athleticism adaptability like I know it's combination it's always you have to have but if you if you have to pick two qualities in a dog and the training where would you go of course courage is genetic. I mean I mean this the dog either has it or it doesn't have it as you said like the the the French saying that that's across the board in any country uh um you will have you know recognizing that yeah your dog is okay it's just it's okay but but uh um we need the athleticism we need the the bigger the one of the biggest for me and I'm sure not just for me the overall endurance it's over >> it's so underestimated in every other dog sport and yeah we can say Belgian ring and and Mondu ring you know the duration of of going on the field doing uh level three yeah it's fairly similar in length however the dynamics and the the actual confrontation and challenges that the French ring dogs has to overcome in in that time is very different in comparison to the other sports just the the you know the the fighting between a dog just just the let's say the dog catches the decoy it's not over in most other protection sports. That's kind of where we settle into something and and French ring does not have that kind of break. So to top it off, the biggest event is always in the midsummer in freaking I mean the weather is not friendly anymore. You need to have endurance and a as a breeder and the sport forces you to select dogs that have endurance. Yes, training kind of >> of course training, diet, all this matters >> but there is that selection of endurance. So tell tell me uh uh how you feel about this? How how do you compare it to the other sports? The importance of endurance I think endurance is obviously one of the huge things, but I think with endurance comes also control. And control is going to be different for each of the dogs even that we have character-wise. I think because there's dogs that kind of have really good composure even >> even if they are jacked I feel like throughout a routine like some dogs just have much better composure whether that's the character of the dog but also the training of the dog. But one thing I'll say is the way that it goes from jumps to obedience to bite work. If you have a dog that gets really fired up in the jumps and now you have to go into the obedience. I think it's it's challenging in itself to maintain the control and the composure of the dog and

trying to figure out what works the best in order and training to keep that because for me my dog gets fired up for the jumps and then I have to go into the obedience and I think figuring out what works. I mean, I don't do a lot of motivation for my dog for the jumps for the sheer fact of he motivates himself plenty. And that's been something that we've kind of learned over the years is okay, we need to do this. We don't need to throw a ball for him because it just makes him stupid. Makes him There's just way too much arousal in that. And >> it's almost a little bit of a deflection of like, okay, well, do which one do I pay attention to more? Right. >> Yes. For sure. And so I think it's been a maturity thing too for my dog at least. But it used to be when he was young that he would mess up in the obedience more than he would in the in the bite work. And that was just strictly >> maturity. >> Maturity >> maturity. And and okay, I it took him about I would say what six ring threes before he really was like I'm in a trial. which I know a lot of people can't say that, but like he's a dog that's very compliant in himself. So then all of a sudden when he realized what he was doing, it was like party time, but he was also two and a half years old in ring three six or seven times already. So it >> Yeah. >> But I would say control and figuring out the composure and like because every dog's going to be different for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah, I mean obviously the genetic components like you said like courage and the the dog's biting ability and how to handle pressure, all that stuff, but as far as it goes with for me it's it's it's the for me it's more similarities of of where I see success with people in IGP, Mondo Ring, French Ring is I've kind of said it before, it's for me it's relationship like having a dog that's biddable, a dog that that wants to be there to do that for you, you know, and then the conversation spirals into oh but you know this dog you know my estro he's a very nice dog very trainable but he he doesn't have you know this intensity on the bite the this just everyone wants listen at the end of the day everyone has this perfect picture in their head of okay I want a dog that bites like a monster and just is so forward and crushing grips and jumps max everything and does this perfect and does that listen yeah okay that's in in And that's the dog that I really liked even 15 years ago. And the dog that I like now is much different than that dog then. And the again the conversation goes into oh you know I I make these comments all the time especially being now a breeder and having success with

breeding for last 15 years is that there's comments that are made about oh these you know these shitty French line dogs. These French line dogs oh they're easy. They're they're, you know, they're super biddable and they bite normal and they, you know, they jump good, but they're not real dogs. They can't handle real pressure, real courage, and, you know, they can't handle real life scenarios and things like that. Uh, okay. Um, if you want to have that conversation, we can have that conversation. But >> I But that conversation is just so like not even worth having. I think it's so much more interesting to have the conversation to to where it's like understand a different program and understand what a program calls for and how gets the dog prepared versus uh um oh yeah this is just not not a real dog or not whatever and it's like no like you guys need to grow up it takes a little time but you got to grow up of this like this is >> crazy crazy and when brag. When I brag, here here's here's probably the thing. I know you haven't had a chance to meet us personally or come to our place yet, but the thing that blows everyone's minds when they come to our place, when they come to train or for a competition, a trial, whatever, is they come in our house, they walk in our house, there's one, two, three, four, five ring three dogs, intact males, laying loose on the floor underneath the kitchen table while 20 people are in our house drinking beer, having dinner, having a good And the dog just scored 385 points in a ring three competition and is going to go upstairs and sleep next to our bed on the floor while our three-year-old daughter crawls all over the top of them. And that dog is going to go jump in the car and go run errands with me tomorrow and come home and be a representation in a demo dog for my business. And the dog is going to do this and do that. Not, oh, he's great on the field, but you can't pet him and he lives in a crate and the only time he comes out is three times a week when we drive to train him. But he's a really really good ring dog. No, I I that that is not why I do this sport. Our dogs are a family and that's also what's different from a lot of some other people out there. But our dogs are family. Like they they not only do we train and we compete and we travel all over to do this, but at the end of the day, the 99 other% of the day our dogs are living with us in our house, >> right? >> And so >> this is a very good man. We have so much to talk. Maybe we need to have another one. I mean, we're going to see how far we go, but man, >> it'll be part one. I know. >> We'll do part two and part three.

>> I know. No, Chad, because you know, like um I I I know you've thought of this forever and I've thought of this all the time and I go back and forth on it and um the these are the kind of dogs that I this is my kind of dog. like we we're very much aligned on on on this part of on the field and off the field and and you know however sometimes I'm like man what what would happen if I had that kind of a little nutcase that was not so easy of the field and then it becomes interesting because like I don't know what I would do like if if it's really if it totally I need to just completely rearrange all of my life around that. Maybe >> like so many people do and there's not a problem with that, but >> that's just not my style of >> Right. Right. Exactly. It's a Yeah, I don't know what I would do if I had that dog. I I guess I cannot say I would get rid of it, but I have to like a lot of things to to put up with with the [ __ ] off the field like like this is not easy. >> This is not easy. What what part of the French ring you think it's most misunderstood by people that do other protection sports that kind of seen? Of course, everybody seen French ring and and everybody it's like, "Oh yeah, I know." But what do people miss about it? Like there, you know, what are the things that get misunderstood? >> Yeah, >> it's actually a good question. Um, >> I feel like the most I've never had like >> I guess good conversations with anyone outside of the sport other than PSA people, >> which really mentioned PSA. That was like the one sport that we were like, we're going to we're going to leave it at that. PSA. I feel like I've had a handful of people message me and in a friendly way, right? Like in conversation, it's like, "Oh, well, your dog would never make it on a PSA field." >> I'm like, "Yeah, you know, he probably wouldn't because he'd kill himself with how the decoys are or he'd kill somebody because my dog's way too fast and way too technical to be sent on a single PSA decoy." and I'll stand behind that. His neck would be broken or the decoy would be broken for sure. But it's like, yeah, I'd run your dog. It's like, yeah, cuz my dog's not exposed to screaming at him while he'd be like, "Oh, I did something wrong." For sure. Because Chad will tell you, even when I was what, eight months pregnant, still training my dog. If he was doing something wrong, here I come waddling down the field. Right. But it's like >> right like I don't >> Yeah. No, it it's just I think linked to that it's it it links to like the two sports of PSA and Mondo ring where people will say and comment about the environmentals and all the scenarios and

all that and and saying that oh that you know these these these French dogs couldn't handle that. Well, I I I beg to differ if our dogs were trained to see that picture. The same reason why your dog couldn't do a ring three face attack. But if we probably showed him, your dog's a nice dog. If we showed him and we trained him, we showed him that picture over a few months period, not just in one session, your dog could do a very nice ring three face attack. The same as what my dog could probably work some PSA 3 routines or some Mondo ring three defensive handler routines or whatever the case is. >> That's why those qu those those conversations just go off the rails because there is no >> talking about two different things. >> Yes. Yes. >> Literally just exposure. I mean I mean you put I I will put so much money on a high level French ring decoy stopping among or PSA or IGP dog and not in a brutal way but just kind of just a checkmate. >> It's just like okay I I I have no answers anymore. just within 10 seconds it's like >> what is this? I don't know what to do. >> So, so it's very unfair to compare what a dog actually is trained to do versus what the dog has inside as far as genetics. And and you know, I mean, this is probably why I don't know like I cannot think of uh um any better exposure than French ring confrontation between a decoy and a dog for a dog to grow up and understand that this is not just rainbows and unicorns. Do you think the sports becoming more like more technical and and like like where where do you think the rings the French ring is going right now? Like I just couple of days ago I was watching I have I have so many old VHS tapes that I I have to I have to send them and and get them digitized cuz they just probably I hope they're not going bad. I have probably man from like 2001 I have I don't know at least to 2006 I have all the the French finals on VHS >> and and yeah and I was watching um you know just just a couple of days ago for some reason and the reason I was watching it is Because because when when you know like you say well this dog stands behind in the pedigree and you're like well who is this dog okay everybody likes him okay but but there is an opportunity that you can actually if you spend the time you can really see that dog being being in French ring being Belgian ring being IGP but you can actually see the dog and you can take under consideration the training that maybe it's outdated and strip that away and still try to see the the actual dog that all of a sudden became uh a very popular dog that probably should have not become that popular for breeding purposes,

but somehow it made the the name and and it's like okay Yeah. And and um where where how how like like for the years? I mean you you now have plenty of years of evolution and observing the evolution of training and the dogs and the breeding where where where it's where it was and where it is now and why. So I'll I'll answer that kind of in every aspect. >> Yes. >> So So you asked a question specifically a minute ago about where do you think like the sport itself of French ring is going and >> I it's here's the issue with with and again even a lot of dog sports and this is why other dog sports like for instance PSA is one of the fastest growing dog sports. um there is in the US. Um and the reason for that is is because there's a lot more resources. Um you know, I mean no disrespect when I say this, but it's a little bit easier to become a decoy. It's a little bit easier to um you know, get groups of people to train for these scenarios and do X Y and Z. >> Yes. I I will say being in involved for for many years now, I think the amount of people and dogs getting involved with French Ring is it's steady. It's not as much as I would like it to see, but it's it's steady. But the problem for that is is because it comes down to what we've been talking about now the last hour of of just the overall just kind of difficulty of of what comes down to difficulty of resources. We go to France. We go to France and when we land in France, we train in ILE France which is which is the Paris region. We train if we're there for 10 days, we train on anywhere from 8 to 10 different fields in the 10 days that we're there all within an hour of each other. 10 different fields. There's not even 10 ring sport official ring sport fields in the USA, >> right? >> There's not. And you have, you know, the evolution of the sport here is much different because you have people that want to do it, okay? But they're also learning how to do the sport without the resources. There's people that are training defensive handlers, and again, the French laugh at us for this, but guess what? It's helped a lot of people get to the success where they are now, but they train defensive handlers with a ball and a tug. You put the dog on the ground and teach the dog to Ovoa and walk backwards and >> then transfer it. Yeah. >> And they do this and do this and I mean there's been people I've trained with in the past that I I don't get to see them maybe only once every three months, but I give them these are the things in obedience and jumps I want you to work on. And when you come and you train with me and we do bite work, even if it's only once every two, three months, one

good session is better than 10 [ __ ] sessions. And just that one session, if you have a good dog and we do this precisely, I promise you, you're going to be able to reach your goal of working for that Bervet or that ring one or whatever the situation is because you just design a program for that dog. You have the dedicated, passionate people that train in their basements by themselves when there's four feet of snow on the ground and guess what? They make it happen. >> Meanwhile, in France, that same person has already worked their dog on 10 different fields and about 25 different decoys. We don't even have 25 active decoys in French ring. I think maybe just barely. >> And they did it just, you know, they go to >> from work loading up the dog and going to training. >> Yep. >> Just as easy as that. >> Just over. Yep. I didn't do it. Okay, cool. I'll see you tomorrow. We'll work it again. So that's why like for me for me personally in the sport and being involved in the sport so heavily and obviously being very passionate about the sport is I you can ask anybody that knows me and French ring very well. I'm very I'm very committed to our decoys. I host decoy camps, decoy seminars. I host decoy selections as I'm a judge for French ring as well. I'll host >> you became a J. I I knew that you were I don't know how you just got a I mean I kind of knew that you were going through it. I've been a judge for 10 years now. >> Yes. >> Okay. Total disconnect. >> Judge. >> Okay. >> Yes. I've been a judge for three years now. But again, people ask me, why did you become a judge? You know, so because people think, oh, you want to become a judge because you have an ego. You go out on the field and you can tell people what to do. It's the exact opposite reason. I did it because we need judges. I'm passionate about the sport and I want to set an example and a representation of what the sport should be. And meanwhile, if I can be there to help decoys and build decoys because without decoys, we cannot do this sport, >> right? >> I am so grateful and so incredibly loyal and dedicated to our decoys. Like I am you you know me if if you work with me in in our decoy camps that that we teach that I'm I'm I'm pretty intense with the way I teach people, but I do it rightfully so. I want you to be the best. I want you but most importantly, I want you to be the safest decoy. That's all I care about and it's all anybody should care about any dog sport. >> I don't care what you can do. I don't care if you can take points for my dog. I care can you safely work my dog. That's all I care about >> because guess what? I'll teach my dog

the tech technic. If you can't show my dog those things, that's fine. I'll teach my dog the technicalities, the precision. You just help me work my dog safely. That's all I need to do right now. And there's people that have been able to All right, I work my dog on this decoy for X, Y, and Z. And then when they come and see you every 6 months, then we can kind of fine-tune those details and we can slowly progress. And that's great, but as you know, just like any dog sport, some people get discouraged, life goes on, they get married, they have kids, they're less passionate about it, and then you have the people. You know, my ring club, my ring club, 15 years ago, I used to have 23 dogs in my club and 15 active handlers. >> Whoa. And now there's a reason why I have only six or seven people in my club. And no disrespect to those people, but guess what? If you come to me and you say, "Hey, let's work on this exercise tonight." Okay, where were you last week? Oh, my my dog ate my homework. Whatever. Whatever your excuse is. Okay, where were you the week before? Okay, now we're doing this. You know how it is. Six months into this, I'm giving my blood, sweat, and tears to you. You have not been committed. you have not shown up and we're working the same thing we did 6 months ago. We are not progressing >> and because you are not taking this serious and then obviously as my success started to evolve into the sport I had to change my mindset and I had to change my mindset and listen I'll anybody that has trained with me will know that I will give you my blood, sweat and tears. You come and you you you want me to help you I will give you 150% of anything I can offer you. But if but if you want to come just because you want to oh I just want to do this and I don't really know what I'm doing. And if you don't really have somewhat of a serious mindset, I'm with all due respect, I'm not going to help you. >> Sometimes it's just a check box for people. Oh, I'm training with Chad. >> And I'm not I'm not into that. I'm sorry. I'm not into that. But there's been so many people there's been a there's been a lot of teams in the last few years especially that I've helped um especially in the higher levels with just fine-tuned some details with their dogs and man I just we just can't get this basket figured out and I'm just having issues and do this. Okay, come let's work it. Let's see what we've got. I give you these things to work on. Send me some videos. Let me know how it goes. I have I can't tell you how many albums I have on my phone shared with so many good friends of mine that go home and they apply the detail. And again, that

for me that's about growing and evolving the sport. And it's not just me to be able to do this. It's people like that. And if you have more people like that with that mindset, the sport can grow, right? >> And you don't have to have a level three decoy in your backyard all day long. But you need to have a plan and you need to know what works for your dog. And then you can even if it's not as fast as you want, you can still you can still progress and you can still get to where you want. But again, that's also what limits the sport compared to other sports is that the technicality of catching even a dog like my Astro down the field. Like there's there's there's not very many decoys that that can do that. And I don't say that to have an ego and to have this big cloud over my head. I say that because that is the truth. >> There's some even the cons are not enough help. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. No. Say goodbye to the cones. >> Oh, >> and and then that's it. Then then that person gets I can't tell you how many decoys I've had here that I've trained and they're they've gone on and succeeded as wonderful decoys and people that they get hurt once. They my my old dog, very good, very talented guy, very athletic guy came out trained with me for about eight, nine months. Just great guy, outstanding. I mean, this guy, he could have been, in my opinion, one of the best decoys out there. My dog hurts him and kind of twists his knee the wrong way. Nothing major, but just kind of first time he ever got hurt. He got kind of lucky and just had never been hurt before. Never really understood that you can obviously get hurt doing this as a decoy especially, and that was it. Twisted his knee and that was it for him. I I don't know if I can do this anymore. And that's it. And then, you know, decoys get hurt and then you're screwed. It's like I I I tell her all the time, I if I get hurt, you're screwed. Not only are you screwed, but I'm screwed because I work my own dog. Yes, I have a decoy in my club now, but I'm train him and and building him right now. And just with how precise and technical things are, it's hard. And again, that's what also unfortunately prevents the sport from being able to grow so quickly is because there's so many fine-tuned details that you need to understand and that people need to be all on board with in order to to progress, you know, especially if you want to play at the high level. You have, if you look at our active roster, we have oh, I think maybe 70 80 dogs that actively compete in ring one in a year. We have about maybe 40 dogs that compete in ring two and we have about maybe 15 dogs in ring three.

>> Okay. How does that that's always been interesting for me. How how does that fluctuate? And are you guys now kind of in a plateau? Is it growing? Is it coming like like where where is NAR right now? >> Yeah. So, so NAR nera has NRA is is steady in the sense of we have we have active members, we have people that are joining. Um, but like I said, the big issue is we have uh we've had actually a lot of small clubs that have formed. We've had a new club form in Missouri recently, another small club here. We've had about four or five clubs that have just in the last six months evolved and and become affiliated clubs with Nara. Okay. Um and and from there, you know, they they will um you know, they they'll have their their president, their their committees on on their in their clubs and then they'll actively um you know, the goal is for those clubs to be able to host trials and to do things like that. But as we know, it becomes very difficult because not everybody has a field. Then you have to rent a field and then you have to, you know, find the fencing for the field. You have to bring equipment to the field. And then sometimes when people realize how much is involved with all of that, they don't want to do it. And that also is what kind of hurts the or the the the sport of French ring a little bit as well is because it's just it's it's it's a lot to host a competition. It's a it's a lot to host a trial. >> I know. I was going to I was going to when you said that you you know you were talking about how many dogs you have in the house and and you know they're all level three and whatever. I'm like, man, I'm we just had a a just a a regular club Mondo trial and 3 days before the trial, it just came to me that we don't have a dog in white. Like we just don't have like we don't you know >> like it it needs like like there there is some some time that needs to kind of accumulate for a for uh that club to to be able to even host a trial independently. You know, these are the kind of the hard things about the they, you know, it's not as easy as how it would be for some other protection sports to host a trial, but at the same time, this kind of I I wouldn't say challenges, but but it's a there there is some evolution and it has to happen. There is no other way around it. like you you have to have the the dogs coming in, the dogs that are right in the game, and the dogs that are coming off the game, and all of them play important part for a club to thrive. All of them. >> Sure. Let's go back to that question that I I uh we kind of went off of that, but uh what what I'll ask you again. one thing or whatever comes to mind that people

just really have a very misunderstanding about what rings French ring is about or or like how people you know sometimes you would hear people and you would just be like man you have no idea what this is about like like you don't even know what you're talking about >> what what comes to mind what what do people don't understand about French ring Well, I feel like people that first come to a trial and have never seen a ring trial or they've never even heard of French ring because a lot of my friends from New York, they come, they hang out and let's be honest, our trials are kind of also a party. You know, there's lots of lots of things that happen afterwards >> and they're like, they don't understand any of it. They think it's really cool to see, oh my gosh, did you see that dog just jump that wall? Okay, well, why? Why did the dog just pick that sock and not the four others? Like it's >> why is the dog standing in a basket? >> Yeah, there's so many things. But I guess from a standpoint of like other sports, I think I don't know. What do you think people if like they're dog people but have never seen French train ring? That's like people that don't know, >> even if they've seen it, they they they have this kind of twisted understanding of what's about like they just don't like like there is there is >> that's a good question. >> That's a good question. you know, like I tell you, um, you know, when somebody watches IGP and it's like, well, >> perspectives, >> why why would you do that and why would you do that? And >> you know, I guess the the program is designed to expose certain qualities of training and certain qualities of dog. >> Mhm. And uh like like from what I've whenever I've talked to people that don't that kind of know French ring but don't know French ring. It seems very easy to them. It seems like oh this >> I can do this. >> Yep. you know, like that's my general like I >> as a as a broad answer to your question, yes, I I would say in general because for me when you ask that question, I think of so many different perspectives of people that are in this sport or people that are that are supportive of the sport but they just misunderstand it or people that are not for the sport >> or people >> because they misunderstand it or people that have no clue. But I would say in general, I would say you kind of >> kind of nail it on the head. I I think they just I would say a lot of people will say it's it's easy. Yeah. I mean other people will obviously see some things okay that's cool but they kind of see it as easy but then when they see again I I keep talking about like the mandio and like the PSA and things like

that when you see like you go see a French ring field. Okay you have a jump and another jump and another jump and some cones and that's kind of it. You go to a mondo field you've got I mean you dream it. on the field, everything you could ever imagine. And to somebody, even if you're educated or uneducated, I could see where people would look at that like, well, listen, I for me that seems way more appealing. Like, look at there's a lot of stuff going on over there and the dog's got to go through this and underneath this and over the top of that. Like, I could see where people would think that that would be more difficult and why French ring would quote unquote be more easy because of maybe just something as simple as the environmentals. Um but again what what changes that is like you said it perfectly earlier the rules of French ring you if you are not a good handler in French ring you are going to know the first time you step on the field if you are not a good handler and unfortunately I've seen I've seen I've seen >> I got destroyed I'm like [ __ ] I can't seem to do one thing right and that is I don't even remember who was it, but it was called some French judge. He It was a f famous guy. I'm so bad with names. He's kind of he he was a smaller guy and he he was so mad like you should know this you know like like oh man you know like the the like the sterile if we can say it that way environment of French ring comparing to Belgian ring or Mondu ring it's very similar to IGP it's like let's take all the noise away. >> Mhm. >> So we don't have excuses and let's see what happens. >> Mhm. >> You know, like in in Mont Ring, I'm just going to say it because I I believe it. In Monte Ring, you can have a like a a highlevel dog and a competitor and a mediocre dog and competitor. And the one succeeds here, the one fails here. And somehow it's hard to really separate and say, "No, no, this person is very on a very different level. It's because like well that was just an exercise that my dog got confused with and like muring has this kind of like you can come up with excuses of of why today you you didn't make it and also you can you can say well I didn't make it but also the the top competitor didn't make the defensive handler either. So we are kind of on in the same boat, right? And and I think um again there is there is very very good points about I mean Muring and Belgian ring the whole generalization factor and training for for understanding how to deal with the noise and noise meaning all the environmental presentations right it's a challenge on its on and and it's to be appreciated, but it's also to be appreciated the

sterile environment where we take it away and we have no excuses. It's like, okay, it's this is it. It's super simple and everybody has to do it. And I never understand um that conversation because I don't think there is right or wrong in that conversation as far as um um what makes one sport more difficult because of how much the environment changes or doesn't change because it looks for different >> criterias and the training evolves around those criterias and and French ring is is really yeah it's fascinating because of of that sterile environment because we know yeah there is within the exercise there are some there is some room for variation but but it's still the same exercise yes the dogs going to do different things to different dogs because they should because they feel that they can however I I cannot say which sports I like the most cuz I understand them all of them and I try to not not to compare them. Every time you compare the sports it's almost like why are you doing this? Because it's not like it's just like with martial arts you compare some boxer to some Muay Thai or some sambu fight like >> look at what happens when you take a Muay Thai fighter and put him with a boxer. >> Exactly. Right. It's >> very different things. >> Exactly. >> And not to say they're not all capable, but they're all very different things. >> Right. Right. >> Because they're trained differently. >> There is a um there was a moment I don't know it was few years ago. There were conversation and I kind of fell off. I didn't follow up on it. But but there was something that was happening with how much pressure with the stick can happen. It was about maybe five I don't know it was few years back. What what is where where are we today compared to 15 years ago as far as what is allowed and and and >> good question the evolution of of the decoy and the work. So there's I would say so again the rules especially if you read a decoy guide book as a decoy and understanding what is allowed and what is not. Everyone everyone of course thinks okay you have a bamboo baton in your hand. Obviously they make contact with the dog unlike mandio ring and you take the stick and you smash it across the dog's face and the head. No that's that's not what happens. But here's also where things get misconstrued. When you have a dog flying down the field at 30 35 m an hour running as fast as you possibly can, you have a decoy that is trying to eskeeve or to get away from the dog because let's face it, that's what they're trying to do. They're not going to no decoy is ever going to stand there and wait for the dog to come. They're going

to create opposition and try to do what they can to get away from the dog. And in that moment, yes, you watch slow motion videos and you see pictures and highlight reels where dogs are getting sticks across the face and in the mouth and across the eye and kind of here and there. But again, it's it's you have to see how that's put in perspective. If if if a lot of people might think it's intentional, but you have to understand in those conditions and those circumstances, the dog is going to get hit in the head with the stick, >> right? >> And more so along the lines of the dog is going to make Let me explain that better. The dog is going to make contact with the stick across the face or the head or maybe even the foot or the leg or the stomach. Depends on what the situation is. It's just it's it's it's inevitable. Now what and they say this there's a there's a a decoy. He was the final decoy this year. It was his third final. He's a very famous decoy. He's probably the best decoy in the world. His name is Roma Lac and he was the decoy in the red suit in the final championship for select teams. He's a very very very talented decoy. >> He was doing some crazy stuff. It's always this is so much fun to watch anyway. And but if you watch a decoy like that work the dog, you will never ever ever hear a single person say anything bad. Even people that are uneducated and don't know the sport, you will never see anybody ever say anybody anything bad about his work with the dog because he is literally the definition of being able to work the dog exactly as per the rules describe. He is not brutal. He is not malicious. He is not he has no intent to hurt the dog. But you better believe he is absolutely going to test your dog within those rules. And that's why it is a privilege for people like us to be able to put our dogs on somebody like that because I I I know and I know that my dog is going to be safe, but also at the same time I'm going to know that I'm going to find some probably some holes in my dog if I put my dog against a decoy like that. Now you have other decoys that are highle decoys that you just watch their mannerisms and how they do things. Yes, they're definitely have some brutality behind them and a little bit of you know the dogs slipping the grip and they're really trying to rip that grip out of the dog's mouth and you know again everybody kind of has a different mentality. Then comes the big debate in the polit political side of things. Oh, well the judge allowed this and there's a reason, you know, oh, but the judge allowed that. That's a bunch of [ __ ] But, you know, oh, screw this, screw that. Here's here's how I

look at things. Me as a competitor, as a judge, as a previous decoy, everything I've done in the sport, here's how it works for me is I obviously I am all for the rules. I am a judge. I'm here to enforce the rules as a judge when I am when I am judging on the field. But I also like very high level of work all within the rules. Right? So in other words, I like if you if you can go out there and your athleticism as a decoy and you can put that stick in the right place and you can maneuver and you can push that dog and do this and do that, have at it, my friend. >> Yeah. >> Have at it. And if sometimes what happens is on those really fast dogs that come flying down the field and they'll make that contact with a stick in the mouth or across the head and do things, guess what? I'm going to train my dog to understand that situation. I'm not going to intentionally put the stick across my dog's head and hit them, but I'm going to put a stick down and show my dog that this might come in front of you before you get to bite sometimes. And you need to understand that if this hits you in the face, you need to work through it. And again, that's also what kind of you say talking about like the qualities and some of the differences is that in those types of situations that are unintentional situations, it's all part of the sport is that that's really what separates a dog in my opinion of, you know, from maybe some dogs in some other sports. It's like, man, you you think this dog, he just got smashed across the face with a stick, you know, not intentionally, but that's just that's how it panned out. And afterwards, that dog came back with 150% intent to bite. as opposed to some dogs they get even just a big barrage with a stick don't even make contact with a stick and those dogs are nope don't want any part of this so how it's evolved is just like handling just like just you know I I come from when I started when I started competing I've been in ring three I've been competing 201 13 2012 2012 I think was the first 2011 was the first year I competed in ring three so was at 15 years ago. So 15 years ago. So as a level three at the highest level, I've seen also where scores from dogs 15 years ago in my day scores were 335, 350, 360 was a killer score. Just absolutely killer. >> And now we're here where the training is better and the handling is better and the dogs are better. And now we see it's not uncommon to see scores of dogs that are 370 380 consistently. >> But what about the the the what the dog is allowed to do today versus back then and and how how did that change? >> Yep. So what I what I was getting to

there was saying just how the evolution of the handling and dog has come at the same time as the evolution of the decoy too. So now you have decoys that are much more capable. I mean, just watching obviously there's there's always the good decoys we will never forget, but especially in the states as the sport has growing. >> Our decoys now are much better than what our decoys were 15 years ago all day long. I will I will say that. But also this that that that that that in my opinion means that the sport has grown in absolutely in that aspect of things and but also people that have learned and been taught properly how to test the dog more within the rules and being able to understand okay if I can scoop or push the dog you know in in ring three and do that then how to do that without hitting the dog you know it becomes a game of finesse and really all it is is it's a it's a game of timing that's that's that's what it is when it comes down to that and you Watch you watch a guy like that Roman Lacant guy that that we're talking about that decoy. That guy is an exMLS soccer player, professional soccer player. >> Insane athlete. And that guy has the most amazing timing you will ever see. And that's why he is so good at what he does. He puts the stick just gently in the right spot. I mean, I it's literally the word I can use the word gentle because he literally just puts it there and just moves. It's not smashing the stick across the dog's head, you know? >> And for me, Man, this is the the crazy thing. Like I I mean, it's I'm not surprised. I actually was kind of expecting that that's where you're going to go with that question. And I think in I think it's the same with with uh all all kind of reputable protection sports that have history. They've evolved to to, you know, have trainers that understand that we can do things way different and better. There are decoys that they can challenge the dogs without the the harshness of of the old times. However, like like all training is just evolving rapidly for the better. But the animal rights activists don't see that. For them, it's always dog should never do this. Dog should, you know, this is barbaric. This is whatever. This is, you know, and it's so ideologydriven that they don't even understand the evolution of the sport and what you like in the sport. And they're becoming more and more opposed to protection sports. Even though protection sports have evolved as we are saying from even from 20 to 15 to 10 years to 5 years improving all this to where it's actually very we we take under extreme consideration what we do when we pressure or challenge dogs and not cross certain lines.

Why? What What is your take on on that whole animal rights movement and trying to shut down and and constantly fighting with with Yeah. So, it's funny you say that because it's something we've dealt with being in France in the last um that we've basically lived there since February. We've been been there for the selects and and and for the finals. So um obviously as we know in France, major parts of Europe that you know it's uh professionals, how do they describe it? What you'd probably be able to correct me better on this that professionals are forbidden from being able to use prong callers and electronic callers. um you can use them you can use them as a civilian but I do know that there's limitations ba basically lack of a better term prong callers and e-collars are forbidden especially in in in in France right and I know I know obviously other countries as well so when we went to France when we were there for the first time in in February of this year is I had um a gentleman over there who is um you know, another kind of big big training guy over there, an old an old more of an old school guy. And he comes to me and he and he tells me, he says, "Hey, how are you? Nice to see you." He goes, "Hey, um if you can, can you please delete your videos on Facebook and Instagram that I've seen you post where you have an e-collar on the dog?" And I said, "With all due respect, why why would you wh why why are you saying this to me?" Says, "Oh, well, because of this and this and because the issues we're having and it just makes the sport look bad and it's going to ruin us." I said, "Yes, but but but let's look at it from the other perspective." I said, "Tell me any video that I've ever posted on there where my dog tail is not wagging. The dog is engaged. The dog is in tune with me. that dog is absolutely living in the as as we say the tail never lies on the dog. You watch that dog and that dog will tell you he's having the absolute time of their life. So why wouldn't I be the person that would continue to educate people and show them that these tools can be used appropriately in these conditions and show them videos of dogs that can successfully and happily work with this type of equipment. So again, it was it was a it was an interesting conversation I had with this guy and I told him respectfully. I said, "Sorry." >> Did he ever get it? >> No. >> Probably not. >> Probably no. >> No. Another old school guy. And that was it. He's like, "Okay, well then you do what you want." And said, you know, respectfully, I'm not deleting anything off of my Facebook and from a person who's given me information like you.

Like, sorry. So, but again, I I I do have that slight side of me that sees, okay, where he's coming from, but at the same time, what are we supposed to are we supposed to hide all these tools? But also, that same person utilizes a prong and and an electronic collar, right? >> I'm the regular with his dog all day long, but don't post anything on social media about it. >> Of course. So if you believe in that equipment, why wouldn't you continue to pursue to show and be the advocate for proper use of the tool as opposed to trying to hide it? And in my opinion, that's what they're doing is trying to hide it. >> They're not hiding. They're not even trying. They are paranoid and they they have no choice but to hide. Um, and they've given up on on trying to have a little bit of of backbone and and and have a conversation and and stand up for for, you know, it's like, well, if you if you say that it's wrong and if you say that it's so bad, like, what exactly? Why can't we not have the conversation? Europeans are unfortunately just given up on this. I think this is one of the I I'm I'm so proud of dog trainers in America in that specific regard that uh um and maybe maybe we kind of caught up a little bit like Europeans got caught before the social media became like really social media to where they couldn't prepare, they couldn't unify And everybody was like, "Oh, yeah, somebody else maybe. Oh, no, it's no big deal. We can hide. Nobody cares." And next thing you know, no, that's not how it goes. To where here we we have the the courage to, you know, fight back and make noise and then it's like, "No, like it just doesn't like you really have to give me some very convincing reasons for this." And yeah, that's unfortunate cuz France was I mean they were holding up for for a little bit longer than Germany and and you know all the German speaking countries and the Scandinavians but but now they're kind of starting to and then that's how it goes with the laws that you said like if you're professional you cannot if you're whatever and then little by little it sneaks upon on everybody and they take over and uh but let's talk about something more exciting. Carly, when um when did you I know everybody has dreams and everybody's like, "Oh, I'm going to do the best and I'm going to win and I'm going to whatever, but do you do you recall the time when you actually saw that that can become reality like that that really can happen for real? It's above your dream at that point. When when when did that happen? >> Yeah. I feel like you just nailed it though. Like it being above a dream, right? I am not going to lie. Like Chad and I for sure talked about

our goal was originally it was okay just qualify for the selective, right? I had >> do well, don't embarrass yourself. Be >> right. >> Yeah. And and so last year we we gave it a go. And the reason why we gave it a go was because I mean we knew I had a good dog, but we had we brought out a French decoy. And um at the time he was like you really need to try to do select with this dog. And then it was kind of like a eye opener like well can we do it in terms of time and and in terms of finances and >> right >> all the things that go along with that and also we had a baby at the time so that was a whole another aspect to trying to figure out if it was even something that we could do. And so last year I was like, "Okay, my dog's first year in ring three and let's go to France, I guess, right? Like we want to test him. We want to do what we can." And unfortunately last year was just a lot of really, really, really bad luck. Um, not to go into crazy detail, but he got really sick after the first leg last year. He got leptosperosis really bad. >> Whoa. It was not okay. It was a very stressful time and thankfully he came out on top of that. But he got that at the first selectif >> and then the last selectif we had a training incident the morning of where he just had bad luck and I had to pull him from the from the routine because he was not going to make it through. And it was traumatic for me to say the least because I'm like, you can ask Chad, I'm not good when it comes to my dog being hurt or injured or unhealthy or anything like that. So last year was kind of a okay, we're on the top. We made it. We made it to the selects. We went into the selects and I feel like everything that possibly could have happened happened in just poor luck. Just poor luck. And that's I guess the nature of just life. So I was a little bit down in the dumps for that because I felt like my dog didn't really get to portray who he was, >> right? >> But thankfully I had so many people over there that were like, "No, like you have to come back. This is an incredible dog. You know, you you really need to give it a go again." And so then Chad also was like, "I want to do it again. I want to do it one more year." And I was like, "All right, I guess." which is crazy because the like I can >> I can relate to the >> like what it means to be gone for so long >> from every aspect you can think of. I mean the dogs at home, the business at home, the money that you're spending, the money that you're not making. I mean this this is like a >> oh >> a lot >> impossible. >> Yeah. And >> and there is no guarantee at the end that the stars going to line up for you either.

No, no. And I was like I wasn't happy with how things ended there. So, I was like, "Okay, I I do want to give it a go again, but I there's just so many variables that go into place with with him because training has to be very specific. He's a dog that is not easy on his body. He's not he's he's just kind of a liability in himself. And so it meant a lot of training, a lot of preparation, a lot of sacrifices for, you know, being away from our kid for some time too. And we decided to give it a go again. He was healthy and I just wanted to make the final. That was that was the goal. >> Well, before, not to interrupt you, but before it was we just want to make the selects. We just want to play in the select teams. That's it. That's all we want to I mean, that's big enough. >> Huge. >> Seriously, >> there's there's been uh there's been before we went and before the dog, her dog's brother went last year, uh there was only one other American that had successfully completed a select teeth tour and that was it. So, we wanted we wanted just to play in the select thiefs, >> right? Then as we started progressing and getting involved with it and then I'll be honest with you, it was more of our our friends and and people there in that side of France are like no like people were telling us two years ago like you can you can win the final with this dog. You can win everything with this dog. like there's no way there's no way we'll come play in the select but there's there's I will I will be the first to say with as confident as I am about decisions and knowing what I'm doing and going for I even in my mind I'm like there's there's no way you're going to there's no way you're going to make okay maybe we can make the final okay but I want I want to be just that 28th dog that slides in and just say we made the final like that's that's what I want okay let's go for that okay now we're here now we're the third dog going into the final this year oh my god so yeah no Then it uh it just everything just started kind of happening and it's like wow this is uh we really are here at the highest level and we can really play and show who we are at the highest level and it's uh yeah sorry to interrupt you there. >> Did you get more stressed more pressure on yourself or you were you enjoying it more or was it kind of combination? >> Selects this year was the most stress I've ever had in my entire life. And when she made the final and just going into the final, I was the most relaxed I think I've ever been for a competition because I'm like, you know what? She's here. >> Mission is accomplished for sure. >> She's in the final. She's playing in the

final championship of France. We're here. And literally, I didn't I had I had I had no stress. And then when people started approaching us and telling us, hey, you know, you you're you're you're a third dog going into >> shot. >> And there's only half a point difference between you and the dog, two dogs in front of you. Half a point. So the top five dogs were all within one point of each other going into the final championship this year. And then yeah, that definitely put a little pressure on us in the sense of like, well [ __ ] we really can win this thing. And >> so the I guess the most stress I had for the tour this year was so last year and this year my group was the first group to go and that's because I was actually supposed to be the last group to compete >> in terms of starting the tour. And because of how hot it was at the final last year, they bumped everything up to make to in hopes that the final wouldn't be as hot this year. And so I ended up being the first group to go again. It has its van its advantages, but it also kind of has its disadvantages. You don't really know what the work's going to be like yet, but also the work progresses as the tour kind of goes on. And so I was like, "All right, I just want to score well at the first one because I want to have a shot, right?" And realistically, you can be a little bit more comfortable in in everything if you have a decent score at your first one and even at your second one. So, first one was good. We scored a what 373 I think 374 >> and then um I was thrilled. I was like, "Okay, like we're in it right now." There's a lot of variables, right? But we're in it. And I think the craziest thing is, and I tried to because everyone has a speech at the final, like I tried to portray in my speech how how important it is to have the team that you have, right? Like you're only as good as the people that you surround yourself with. And I have hands down the best team in the entire world. And especially with the people we we met in France. I mean, they we've known them for a short period of time, but like I think every single one of the selectifs I had this year, he cried obviously cuz he always cries. He almost blacked out after the first selective. He was so like he didn't even know what was going on. He literally stood up after the last exercise and he told me he was like, I almost blacked out. I'm like, great. But my my team in France knows the extent of the bad luck we had last year and they've seen me just you know over overly upset about just my dog's health and all the bad luck we had and after the first select teeth after the second

select teeth I mean you would have thought it was like I don't even know how to explain it but every single person there on my team was crying I got champagne showers I didn't even win some of them I was like second or third place in some of the selectives didn't matter. Did not matter. And then after after that last selective um it was like it was insane. People were screaming and and it was crazy. So >> basically to explain like did I think it was going to happen, you know, after the second select thief, I was like my dog my dog's in it. Like we just have to we just have to do what we do in the last one and and that's it, you know. Um, and when I knew that we made it, I was just thrilled to say that my dog was a finalist. That was it. It was like going into this year, I I told Chad, I'm like, "He's retired after this year. Like, I'm done. I'm done." Even though he's five and he's actually like the best shape he's ever been in his entire life. I'm like, "I'm done. I I I have so much stress training this dog to not break his neck, break a tooth, break a decoy, break I don't even know my mind. Break my mind. And now I'm like going into it I'm like, okay, I just want him to live because they did not split the routine and the routine it was hot. It was really, really hot. So even though they bumped everything up a month, it was 85 degrees. >> Yeah. and it didn't stop the routine. >> And I think a lot of people thought they were going to. So I was just like, "All right, well, um I just >> My dog's hot before he goes on the field. He just he knows and he's a dog that is 24/7 all the time. He's ready to rip at any point. And even going to the bathroom is like a NASCAR strip. Like he's ready to go." So like I don't warm him up a ton in terms of like, "Okay, do this, this, and this." I I put him back on track. He makes fun of me. I put a warm-up jacket on him and I'm like, "Warm those muscles up before we go because I can't do much with him without getting him like already tired before I go on the field." And >> I walked onto the field and everyone was like, "You were so confident." >> It's like, "I have to drink a beer before I go on the field. I have to do my decompression lap." I stress before I go out, but like you said before, it's like I'm I'm I have to have my head so I don't I'm not stressed anymore when I walk on the field. And I feel like even for the final, I tried to just maintain my composure and handle my dog the way I know I need to handle him. And it paid off. But I didn't think the results were going to be what they were. As silly as that might sound, it was like he said, we were just happy to be

in the final and and I guess I knew that my average gave me an advantage, but I also, you know, I'm sure you saw the internet kind of broke over him being the dog with the highest average. >> Yes. >> Everyone's like, it's in the rules. You know, she knew she couldn't win. It's like, okay, yeah, I knew I couldn't win, but then I won and damn it, I didn't win. So, I again, it was an experience of a lifetime of memory that will never go unlived with with our group and our team and the people that were there to be a part of it. Um, but I didn't have that mentality. It was like I just wanted I just wanted to go out there and and do what I knew my dog could do and and be the handler that he deserved because as we've talked about you can cost your dog a lot of points in in French ring and even throughout the selectifs I cost him five and a half points general allure. >> So his average would have been higher. So again, technically I feel like I am a first-time handler with him and I wouldn't have even ever even imagined >> we would where are you standing right now? Are you going to retire him or no? Or you don't know? Think about it. I will tell you a story. I'll tell you. >> Yeah, we don't know yet. I um when I won I won uh in IGP I won the national championship for Malininoa. I won the because we have breed specific and then all breeds. So there's two championships. So I won both championships >> that year. Then I won the world championship for Malininoa and the world championship for all breeds all in the same year and he was six years old. >> Wow. >> And I was like there is not I mean there's just and I've never been in that position. >> Yeah. >> You know I've never I mean it was just like insane like you know you cannot say okay you're lucky right now. No, this is like a I just won everything possibly that I could win that whole year. And he's six years old and he's in a top shape like he he could go for good two years >> and I decided not to. I retired him and boy I can tell you over the years how many times I go back and forth if that was a good decision or no. >> Yeah. And ultimately though, I always come back to that was a good decision thinking of like how you know fighters in MMA they always >> you know they can be the greatest of all time but then they just don't know when to stop and eventually people remember them more with the losses and the mediocre fighting than the top performances and and I was like okay I I mean what more even if I next year, let's say the stars line up again and I win one more time, it wouldn't matter >> because it will be like, >> okay, yeah, he it's not a surprise. It's not it's okay.

>> However, if he was to lose, >> it's like, oh, he lost. >> Yeah, he only did it once, >> right? And I didn't want to give that to my dog. I was like, we're we're calling this off. And there was again like through the years I was like, "Damn, we had two more good years." And he was like that dog that was consistent like it was on a, you know, a fluke. It was on one hit song. >> So, back to you. It's a hard one. And hopefully you don't make a decision like a don't make a hard decision, >> you know. So basically where we're at right now is I had I had all the intentions even after the final to to do the NAR stuff this year because we're hosting the regionals and it's in my backyard and you know he's he's >> I'm going to I'm going to finish out the year with with the NAR championships for sure because he's only been qualified one year for the NAR championships. >> Crazy. >> Because I've I've always prioritized the France stuff. >> Yeah. Last year we went back and forth. Oh, should we should we do it? Should we should we qualify? And it was like the regional championship in France was the weekend after the Western regionals here, which is a necessity to be qualified. And I'm like, it's not worth him getting hurt and then not being able to compete in France for the uh regional championship, which was necessary to to make the selective. So, we ended up not doing it last year. And every year we've done the championships because it counts as a pre-select for me. So, he's always been qualified for the cup, but not always for the championship. So, this year, we're going to do that, but we've talked about it. We don't really know. We're not going to make a decision right off the bat. But, I'll say that every trial that I do from here until the end of the year will be what qualifies him for the selects next year if we decide >> to do another year. >> Good. But I don't I was like really at peace with with being done with France. Mainly because my dog often tries to die there just because he gets sick. Like I don't know what it is. I've I've uh also completely stopped giving him water that wasn't bottled when I go there. But >> right there is all these other things that people never never even come crosses their mind. >> So the other end is I think the same as you. It's like, okay, I was like on top. I got to like give that to my dog to go out on top. And then I'm like, well, this dog, I'm never going to have another dog like him. And my friends are always like, I've had to retire my dog from injury. Your dog is healthy. Like, you have to enjoy the times that you have with him because blah blah blah blah. But I'm like, for me, it's like,

this dog is my entire heart. I'll never ever have a dog that cares for me the way he cares for me. And I I I don't want him to be crippled in his old age. I want him to literally be able to do whatever he wants to do. And >> it the difference is is that this dog could retire right now and he's on the other side of this wall with our three-year-old daughter right now while she's playing with toys. >> And guess what? He could live the rest of his life like that and live happily ever after. as opposed to some dogs you retire and now they're going to live in a crate for the rest of their life or they can't limit it. >> They're not >> they're not family dogs. They only know the field. That's it. They're a liability. Like it's just so it's that's also why harder decision for us because it's like man >> and then the injury factor that Carly brings up. Yeah. This is no joke, you know, like I If you know the dog, you know, >> right? >> Every time I send him down the field, it could be his last time. Like just one wrong move, one wrong thing, and that's it. You know, it's >> even the last selectif. It was a very emotional moment, too, because I made it through the entire routine. Perfect jumps, perfect obedience. The first exercise was a flea. And normally I'm not really worried about a flea, but it was just the perfect perfect situation. And he got jammed and he was screaming and obviously he never let go, but you could tell the dog was he was tweaked >> and the judges, I don't know, it was probably like 9 seconds in, they completely stopped, told me to recall him. He came back to me with his head turned sideways and I'm like, >> you got to be kidding me right now. like we're we're about to do the thing. We're about to make the final. I I'm like, "Is my dog done right now, walked him around and thankfully he he he worked out of it and I haven't seen a single issue with it since and he was okay." And but the judge said to me, he was like, "If I see anything, thank the basket exercise was next." And he was like, "If I see anything, then he's done." So I put him on the basket, went to the blind. >> That was a good exercise to kind of >> Yes. >> Yes. You know, that was a good good luck in that way. >> Sure. But I'm literally I'm in the blind. I'm just I'm not even watching. I'm just crying. I'm literally balling cuz I'm like, is my dog okay? Like that's my main concern. >> But [ __ ] Like what is it for? >> What is it for? Like if we if I had to just walk off the field with him because his neck was tweaked. Like what the hell is it all for? >> Yeah. No, these are these are like and and those decisions just really you

you got to go with your heart and and you got to feel >> Yeah. >> You got to feel flexible with those decisions, you know, as much as possible. Don't don't like just >> Yeah. >> Don't don't put that line. I had u my um the dog before the one I'm competing now. He was three three or two weeks like very short time before a world championship and he would always be you know somehow something would be off. He would be second, he would be second, he would be third, he would be second. This is just like but it's there and you know it's there and I had this really really just just gut feeling for this world championship and he torn ACL two two weeks before the competition and the thing is sometimes they can do that in training sometimes they can just around like they can I mean they're stupid you know reckless malice they can just do things for not not always training related so so you know you have that however you can try to prevent and it's like with people it's the same like you you get an injury and your six or seven year old is a dog that injury is going to show when you're 9 and 10, that's when it starts to really And by the time you're 12 now, now you're watching the dog and you're like, >> do I make that decision that I don't want to make because and and these are, you know, the things that you always have to think of. So, so right now, right now I have I have my Estro's dad, Horus, who is almost 14 years old. He's laying at my feet right now. He was retired at 5 years old from a back injury. >> And I got him fixed up. He was fine, but I same thing. You know what? I don't need to push this dog through. I could have probably competed him again after a specific type of a surgery. I need to do. But at the end of the day, like if I just passed on the surgery based on what they did, how they were able to fix him up, he could live the rest of his life without any issues at all. >> And guess what? He's been retired since he was five. And he's almost 14. And he's in better shape than my 10-year-old that's sitting next to me right now. My 10-year-old dog here right now, he's in he's in better shape at almost 14 than my 10-year-old dog. >> Yeah. >> That I didn't retire until he was eight and a half, >> nine years old. that was an absolute wrecking ball, and got a lot more injuries, broke way more teeth, and now I see the difference. I've got a 14-year-old dog that just hobbles around, and I've got a 10-year-old dog that looks like, wow, you've been rode hard and put up wet. You just That makes me think, too. It's like, you know what? What? Why? You know, and that that was retiring him healthy and good. It's just obviously

all the injuries that showed up, like you said, from four years old and 5 years old. the arthritis that's built up, you know, his hip that now hurts, all that type of thing. >> Yeah. >> So, hard to make these decisions because at the end of the day, it's like, you know, you get you get a dog and most people, let's say, you work very hard. You start competing your dog at the highest level when they're what, four years old, 5 years old, and then you have what, uh, two, three years with them until they're seven, eight years old, and then that's it. So, it's like, what the hell are we doing? We work our absolute asses off for four years just so we can play with a dog for three years and not even know what the end overall end result's going to be. >> Tough one. >> Yep. Very hard. This is this is always this is like one of the toughest ones you know >> and you like I think I also think it's different for every person and wherever they are in their you know like it's one thing if you're still chasing it >> but care check the boxes you know nobody ever ever takes that away and That's going to I mean that's going to take a little time to sink in. I mean now it's just clouds and everything but but you will like like being being that accomplished checking that box. It's it's something that it's very hard to to explain to somebody that hasn't done it. Like it doesn't matter how long from now there is there is this feeling of >> yeah like you check the boxes it's like you you you accomplish something that very few people how how many people have won that championship right >> well what what really hit me was is that I had coincidentally two messages from two from people by the time we got home. And they said, "Do you realize that there have people that have for >> Yes. >> years, six years tried to reach this with their kennels, their training to be able to get to this point and you guys did it in in two in two years of of playing in the select teams and playing in France. And there's people that have begged their entire life to be able to get to that point and it kind of took a step back. I'm like [ __ ] like >> yes sometimes people think oh I've paid my due I deserve it sure you deserve it but that's not what it takes some some there is like I don't know there is some magic in it too like I I don't know I'm not really there there is luck there is there is like components there is so many components that that day have to come together for one person. >> Yep. >> And nobody else. It's crazy. >> Here's why. And Ivan, I'll tell you that this is why we decided to play in France because unfortunately, as we as we know,

there's no world championship for French. >> Yes. for France because it's French. That is where that's where the best dogs in the world play. >> Yes. >> Sure. And unfortunately because of how small the organization is here and very limited on dogs and competitions. Think about it. Nine competitions, five pre-selectives, three selectives, and one final championship. There's no luck there at all. That's not luck. You don't get to that by luck. And that's why I wanted to do what we did because, you know, it's let's let's face it, there's there's some situations as as much as I I I love and I'll always support NAR and Ringport here, we only our qualification system is is far more lax because of the limited resources we have, >> which probably it's understandable. No, I mean, >> for sure, it's completely understandable. We couldn't we there's no way we we would be able to do the same qualification system as France. Obviously, we have to adapt. We have to make the changes. But in my opinion, a dog that has made those five competitions just to qualify than three competitions and the best 28 dogs out of those three competitions to go to the f my opinion that is what classifies the best dogs in the world is that because it's the only place in the world where you can get that type of qualification system to go to the highest level and that's not luck. That is >> no like what I mean by luck is still like let's say let's say you go in the finals and you've you've you've been very solid cuz you cannot not be solid in in your performances. However, you know, one slow out, one like like there there is this things that can happen that doesn't necessarily mean that the training is wrong or the dog is wrong or the handling was wrong. It's just a thing that can happen out of because it can. Right. >> That's in every trial. >> Exactly. And and that's the kind of luck I mean that there is there is that element that the the French ring gods have to kind of watch over you for this few minutes. >> Yes. >> No, I again >> I what I was saying in regards to kind of the generalization of the reason I explained to the way I did is because you'll have some people not what you're saying. No, I agree with you 100% on what you say about yes, just basically at that moment the stars aligned is the way is the way you describe it, you know, is is a great way to explain it. But you have obviously the criticism and let's call it what it is, the jealous [ __ ] out there >> that will say, "Oh, you're there just because luck." And the reason why I explain it the way that I do is because I say, "You know what? Sorry, but getting to that point was was not just luck." >> Yes.

>> Doing doing that was not just sheer luck. Yes, there's moments where we have luck, but to get to that point, >> very different very different conversation. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Sure. >> How are how were like so so you had your people around you so you had a good support and and which is very important when you're in in this kind of competition. How was it? How did the people that don't necessarily were your friends or that they didn't know you, how how did you feel the whole atmosphere as you were keep pushing forward and doing well? Where how how was that? >> That's a whole another podcast. >> I I think we have to do another one because we need to talk about breedings. we have we need to talk about like actually pet training businesses like there is a lot of [ __ ] we need to talk about >> happily so I'll I'll try to give you the reader digest version so we show up to France obviously we when you show up to the selects which means okay you're qualified with the top 180 dogs in the country and you're in the selects now we show up to selects our very first select two years ago we show up and Okay. Nice, friendly people. Some people just what you would expect. >> Sure. >> No bad experiences, nothing, but just like, okay, cool. The Americans are here. Nice. Cool. You know, like just we're just Americans don't just show up and >> participating, >> make a name for themselves, but here they are. So, you know, well, they can play with us. You know what I mean? Just kind of, you know, people just assume, oh, cool. You know, nice nice guy and nice blonde woman and pretty dog. Okay. and like our sport. >> Yep. Yep. And then he does his first performance in his first select teeth. He had uh he had some we had some bad luck in that in that first trial. Dog still did dogs very well in a lot of things, but just just some just some bad luck. Like I said, the dog had gotten sick before, like she was saying, and just there was a handful of things that led up to that. But there were a handful of people there that even though the dog didn't perform at the highest and win, they saw the qualities of the dog, >> the potential is there. >> Started saying, "Okay, maybe we keep our eye on this this team." Okay. The second select teeth. The second select teeth that that year she absolutely we were able to he just he just came down from literally trying to die after basically what was it? Liver failure from from liver failure. Liver failure. >> Crazy stuff. >> Almost dead. >> And four weeks later we have our second selectif. And he literally got back into shape and got back into normal working order about 5 days before the second

select teeth. Well, the second selectif she put on a show. She took third place and podiummed at that selectif. And then that select teeth is where everybody goes, okay, this is what we were thinking. This is a team we should definitely keep our our eye out for. >> And I cost him eight points on that one because I screwed him on the scene retrieve. So, we zeroed our scene retrieve and he would have been first place and had a 386. could have, should have, would have. But then >> for sure, but that was >> rookie hammer. >> Not his >> rookie hammer. >> So, uh then that comes and then then the the third the third select chief. We we we had our bad luck again, but at that point we had um we had some people that that were really like a a lot of supportive people like like we we we and we built a a just there was far more supportive than there was unsupportive people if that makes sense. >> Okay. So we come back next year, come back this year to do our select teeth tour this year. Obviously we went to France to do the the trials that we need. But once you make the select teeth, those are all the the top those are all the top dogs in the country. >> You kind of start to unact the crowd that's coming in now. >> The same the same as it's the same group the whole time. >> So when we got there to that one um she just absolutely knocked it out of the park. like knocked out of the park, went out there and just did what we went there to do and just absolutely at that moment is when literally I think everyone was like, "Okay, yep. This is exactly who we thought this team was." And then we go to the second selectif. And again, I'll keep this as short as I possibly can. We go to the second selectif. And I don't know if you saw the drama on Facebook, but if you dig through her Facebook far enough back, somebody stole her scorebook, took her workbook from her dog at the end of the second select after the dog also knocked it out of the park and had an absolutely stunning performance, beautiful performance. And all of a sudden, her scorebook goes missing. So then that's when we start to realize is that not everybody is your friend. Well, long story short, >> long story short, and there's some idiotic person or group of people thought that by taking the dog's workbook would prevent the dog from being able to compete, so therefore would not be able to progress and be able to continue in the sport. Um, >> and little do they know, as we know, yes, it's an absolute pain in the ass. It's absolutely devastating for her because that dog that that score, you know how that every workbook I have for every dog, that is your dog's Bible.

That is your dog's life. That is your story. That is every memory, every tear shed, looking at the scores in every single page of that book. So, her book is gone. Well, we have to submit for a replacement workbook. Well, this turns into one of the biggest Facebook thing, biggest shared Facebook post. It was all over. Every single person in France involved with any type of dog sport knew about this missing workbook. Well, long story short, our very good friend had made this post on work on on Facebook saying, "Listen, here's the deal. What you've tried to do by taking the book of this dog, you will not achieve. this dog will still outperform basically just this post like like screw you like this is this isn't going to change anything >> the game goes on >> change nothing if anything this will fuel the fire that much more and so on and so forth >> if you basically if you have the balls you will just anonymously drop this scorebook in the mail and send it to me and we'll move on with our lives and three days later the workbook showed up from an anonymous sender in his mailbox. >> Beautiful man. The the these are the stories, right? that that this is kind of why we do podcast because there is so many things that happen that we don't know, you know, that are so important that they're just this mental games that they're like and and I remember even me trying to get cuz there was times and I I kind of want to talk to you about this actually because um back in the early 90s is I was living in California and and they were getting very into French ring. There was um what was his name? Michelle Valu. >> Mhm. >> And I mean there were like two three big time judges and you know people in the sport at the time and they were coming to California for whatever reason. I don't know why but somebody was you know so it was like really happening there. And I I was getting into it like I you know I mean I I originally well after Bulgaria in Belgium I kind of got exposed to Belgian ring and and that's that was that's still kind of my my passion but French ring became a thing for me like really became a thing to where I even I had to I I certified at a time as a like a decoy. I can't even remember what level, but he was in [ __ ] Colorado and he was like high elevation and I'm wearing a suit and I'm I was young. I'm like in very good shape. And they're like, "Let's run three laps to warm up before we start the the everything." And within the first lap, I I'm think I'm going to have a heart attack. And not realizing that it's just the elevation's messing with me big time. I I'm like, I think I'm really going to die. Um, but

man, I I forgot where I was going with this. uh um with the program back then. What I guess what somehow my impression over the years how the French were good about NAR then they're kind of like no we don't need them and and like you know allowing people to come and compete not allowing people going this back and forth and it was like very it it it was very interesting time because like if I want to put all that time but it's all up on the in the unknown like can I or can I not to this year or next year? How how it changed now back to allowing or was it ever really not okay for Americans to go and compete like what like I'm really confused with this. >> Yeah. No, trust me. Me too. So here's here's here's how it here's how it's kind of panned out is that first of all it's yes we know it's difficult because of the sacrifices you make leaving your family the finances the time away from business the travel just all of that that just so it's not common for people to just pack their bags go to France and go and compete over there you know right >> but there have been many people, several people that have done it just at standard club trials, just a normal competition, French ring competition. There's plenty of people that you just kind of like the same rules and policies we have in the states. You just take a license for, you know, €40, whatever the cost is. >> Yeah. >> Give you they give you um they give you a license and you're allowed to compete and and and play in France. Well, in order to play in the selectifs, you need to be a member of a club in France. So, you have to take a membership with a club in France. >> So, you can't be listed as a basically as a as an independent as would be the comparable to like NARA. You have to be a part of a club. >> Yeah. That was that was back then the same kind of Yeah. >> Yep. So having so having taken that membership with the club officiates you as a you know as a working member in an active French club and gives you the right to be able to have your scores count and to be able to play in the selects there. Well, in regards to and again, this is part of part of some of the the controversy that's going on right now is that yes, I'm not going to sit here and say any different. It is written in their rules that you have to have French nationality. >> Yeah, it's their program. They've >> it can't be because it's it's it's their program. >> Yeah. What I will tell you is that that rule was not changed until probably I think it was about six or seven years ago or so is that they added that into the >> So long story short I think first of all I I admitted I I never knew that we

would make it this far and I don't think they ever assumed that a foreigner would ever make it that far as well. And I don't think it's something that they ever really had to have the conversation about. >> Yeah. >> Because let's be honest, that's was their mentality of this is our sport. It's been our sport for >> so many decades now. >> Yeah. >> And this is nobody's ever nobody from another country's ever made it in played in the final championship of France >> other than the French, you know. So, it's uh it's interesting because obviously as you've seen on like on my Facebook post, there's there's a lot of you know, look, the rules are the rules. I'm not here to argue against the rules. Those are the rules. But at the same time, my argument against it was I want to play with the best in the world, >> right? >> I want to go there, play the best in the world. And and and in the sport that I play in a French ring, this is where you go. If you look at any logics of of how the like I said the system just to get to the final championship of France, you are playing with the best dogs in the world. You are playing with the best in the world when you do that. So that's why I want to take this approach and I want to go this path. I will always compete here. I will always, like I said, I will always support French ring here in the US. I will do it until the day I die. But if I have the opportunity to go play with 180 of the best dogs in the world and possibly qualify with the top 28 to go to the world champion to excuse me to the French championship, then I'm going to do that >> which is equal to the world champion because I mean they have like whatever I don't know what was it called. I don't even know if they still have >> what was it called? >> It's called the intercontinental. >> Is that still a thing? >> Yeah. So that's the hard part is that the Intercontinental Cup is supposed to be hosted every four years and um the last time they did that I believe was 2017 and they haven't done it since and coincidentally is that the same problem that they've been having. They announced the Intercontinental Cup. It was supposed to be in October of this year and they actually invited me to be the first American judge to judge the Intercontinental Cup. >> Okay. as alongside a French judge and as they've had the issues in the last so 2017 the last one should have been 2021 it's now 2026 so for the last 5 years they just they end up just canceling it or the hosting club doesn't want to do it because it just takes so much time and yeah just efforts to host all these people coming in from different countries and doing this kind of thing so but

>> it's very similar to the Belgian ring they try to do this global ring thing that it's like, >> yeah, >> but for me it's like listen, I I understand um you know, part of my argument against that is I'm all for it. I would happily support it. I would happily compete in it if I had a dog that was qualified to compete in it. But if our our top ring three dogs that we send over there, I'm not saying that they they they can't compete with those dogs, but and if that's what you want to utilize in order to be c and again I don't think they I think you call it an intercontinental cup championship and some people are going to refer to that as basically what will be the world championship. Sorry, but in my opinion that's not the world championship. >> It's not because the top dogs are not there. >> Yes. and the qualifications of they're going to send they're gonna France is going to send their you know champion vice champion third place champion dog to intercono cup to represent France. We are going to send our dogs which don't get me wrong we have some outstanding dogs here. I think they could run with them for sure but those dogs those dogs qu their qualifications to get to there is far different than the dogs that did those nine trials. Does that make sense? Yeah. and oh well we have a dog from we have a you know two dogs from Mexico that we'll send you know what I mean it's just for me it's not the same it's not the same playing field >> right >> you're now it's just like for me now now it kind of comes down to well depends on who the team would be but it would that would come down to luck okay cool I I won the international cup yeah but your your dogs's done two ring threes and went over there and and did you know did a really nice trial and you know great I'm happy for you that you won but what about the dogs that so again that's kind of the question and thing that kind of turns a little bit in the pod of all right what what what >> you're definitely in a position now that raised the question and I'm curious what um why why do you think it's always been that the French ring is kind of protected by the French people as their thing and why why do they don't want to open it up like really open it up >> if you take some guess the let's face it it's there's so many European mindsets that are just these old school mindsets if it ain't broke don't fix it leave it the same if there's just always fall back always just fall back on what has always been the same it's the same it's the same like >> we always done it that Okay. There's no evolution because we're going to keep it the same. And if we keep it the same,

it's worked for this long. We're just going to keep doing that. I mean that's >> which in one hand there is the benefits from that because it maintains the dignity of the sport and and not watering it down to where you see how well I don't know how familiar you are with IGP but IGP progressively becomes more of a >> like like really just watered down to where it's like the to the point that you start to be like well is it a protection sport anymore you know >> no stickheads Right. Right. to where uh um the the cool thing about the French is they they have it and they're outside of the like the FCI cannot like tell them what they need to do which is super cool for a you know a protection sport organization but but it it's such an exciting sport and there is so many people that want to do it and I think if they open it up the sport's going to grow. There is no question that the sport's not going to grow. Now, the question is, of course, when the sport grows, then you're going to have a lot of people to have a voice and kind of derail the purpose of the sport and then, you know, it goes sideways. So it in one hand it is a problem but on the other hand how many young people are in French ring right now involved like like when you go to France how how often how how much young people do you guys see in the clubs? It's not common I bet. >> Not common. No, but one club we're in, there's a group of they're all 21 years old to maybe 19 to 21, 22 years old. Big group of young people that train some nice dogs and they're great. But that's one club, >> right? >> I You go to any other club? I don't Yeah, I don't I don't know of any. >> And I think that's >> I can't even think of any person that's, you know, even in their 20s that are handling dogs in in the selects. You know what I mean? Obviously there's a few but not very many. >> And if they open it up to some still do it carefully I mean but allow people from outside to to to come and challenge themselves and I think the sport grows because of young people. It's always about that. >> Am I the youngest handler in the final? Um, yeah, probably. >> How young >> you were? >> No, she's saying that she was the youngest handler in the finals. >> What about women in in French ring? How is this? How many women were in like the finals? >> Four. >> Okay. Yeah. I mean, >> yeah. I mean, it's it's okay. And there's only, this was kind of cool, a little bit off subject, but um there was only one woman that's ever won the champion of France and the cup. >> I was going to ask this. I didn't know. >> It was in 2009, I think. >> 2007 or nine or something. >> Okay. >> And she messaged me on Facebook and she

was like, "I want to introduce myself." >> Girl power. Of course. >> Yeah. Congratulations. I'm I'm really happy I can no longer say I was the only one to do it and that was cool because obviously I technically did do it but you know it's cool. So do do you guys think uh like if I mean what kind of is it even possible from outside to push for some more uh um for that change to where it's like yeah let's open it a little bit for competition and and let's you know like we've been in the same position I mean even last year in IGP with FCI because United States is not FCI country and um a woman won from the States and they kind of made a they they don't know what to do. They kind of they had to make two ceremonies at the end. So she stand with the trophy, but then they gave the trophy to the European, so he was the champion. And it's this kind of like a it's almost weird cuz everybody knows, but it's like >> it makes it weird between even the competitors cuz because of this, you know. >> Sure. And that's unfortunately the situation that happened with her. Do you think this ever can I mean do do you think the French would ever consider opening it up a little bit more? And >> I want to be very optimistic, but I think it's going to take a lot longer than what we think or what we want. Um I think and again that's part of part of me who I am is that I said I said to her okay well >> let's go do this again let's go again >> right >> exactly and and here is the other thing >> for for the sport let's go do it again for French train ring let's go do it again to like like okay this this you know >> and that makes sense hey if we do it again what's what Yeah, that makes sense to do because you know >> the door is open and and I might I I will tell I will tell you that with unfortunately the mentality of some of these old school people though that are involved is that I think if we push too much I think they might ban us. >> No, I totally can see this. Oh, absolutely can see this. Like you know what what puzzles me like genuinely puzzles me is if I was French and I was competing in French ring and there is this woman from the states that just came and just beat everybody. I would want to be able to compete against her next year because she she was the best. I would want to think that there is a lot of I I don't know but I want to think that there are a lot of people in the French ring community in France that also think this way to where it's like well okay I'm good but how good I am when we don't allow somebody really good to come and compete

against me. I want to compete against them. >> Do you think that's even crosses their mind? Some some of them? >> Yes. Some of them, but not all of them. >> No. I I couldn't personally. I couldn't I can't. That's not how my brain processes and works. That's why that's why we did what we did. That's why we went to France. That's why we went decided to make that decision to go there and play. I want to play. I don't I don't commit my entire life dogs breeding program, family dedication into this sport just to just to test them against a handful of people over here >> to be the king in your village. It's just pointless. >> If I do something, I want to I want to do it to play against the best in the world, >> man. Hopefully, they they I don't know. I mean it's a good good opportunity for some something perhaps to happen. Let's shift gears. Tell me about the N. Where where is N? What's going on? So, the the issue the issue with trying to open that up is that here here's what it comes down to is obviously obviously the the SEC right recognizes ring in the US >> right titles and everything >> but with but with the stipulations of French judges can come to US to judge. American judges cannot come to France and judge. US decoys unless they were selected by a French judge cannot come to France and decoy in France. So it's also that that right there is what where the limitations. >> Yeah, that puts strong brakes for sure. >> That puts brakes on everything >> for sure. And we have shown that you know since 1987 is how long NARA has been involved how long French ring sport has been active in the US officially since 1987 and the sport has evolved and grown and we've had you know you've seen it Michelle Valadon was out here so so many times in the early years and so many other reputable people and helping the sport grow but at the same time >> oh you know we can we can come here and we can we can help you and we can judge and decoy your trials, but sorry, you can't come and do that there. And again, >> I do agree with what you said earlier about, okay, getting other people and too many people involved in watering down the sport and changing some of the rules and regulations because guess what? Our our judges, the reason why they won't allow us to judge there is because our judges program is different than their judges program. It's very similar in a lot of ways, but their judges program also means you are confirmed with, as they say, beauty competitions to where you it's it's not just ring. There's also other disciplines that makes you a judge, if that makes sense. It's a little bit more of a tedious type of a program. We don't

we don't have that here. >> So, because we don't do so, in other words, okay, then what do we need to do to conform so we can do that? So that's something that I've been trying to work on, you know, throughout the last few years and and talking with, you know, some of the, you know, board members and people over there. Hey, what what do I need to do? If you if you want me to come and you want me to sit in on a few trials and take take my, you know, written exam with you, what what do you need? >> Like I'm all I'm all for growing and and be able to come here and help you as much as I want you to come help me. What what what can we do? But again, it goes back to, oh, but you know, we're just going to leave it the way it is right now because, you know, we don't have any problems right now. And that's, you know, that's the mentality. And it I I as much as it kills me to say, I I do see why. >> Yeah. >> But it's not ultimately what any of us want on this side of the pond, espe at least, you know. So >> what's the situation in Mexico with French ring now? >> They're they have a good system down there. >> Yeah, >> they they they run it they run it a little bit more similarly to the way France does it. They have like they call them selectivos. They have like selects down there. We just have a regional championship here and a championship. We have um two trials in order just just qualifying scores that you need in order to qualify for the regionals. and then your regional score, your championship score. That's what that's that's how you are claimed the narrow champion. In Mexico, they actually do have selectivos. I think they have three of them. They have like a central, a south, and a north region. They have those. Um, but again, there's, as much as they do those, there's only I think I've only seen like two or three dogs, if that, playing in ring three at some of those competitions. >> So, it's still active and and moving. And there's a big group of people down there and I I know a lot of them, but again, just they're limited on on on resources. And same thing, Mexican judges can't go there. And >> I think this is one big big uh um like like the the just the dog sports are, you know, they're under pressure from animal rights all over the world. Then also the young people have so many other things to do. Like where I'm going with this is there is plenty of reasons why we need to keep finding ways to come together instead of staying in a different separate bubbles. >> Yep. >> Like there just so many reasons for that to be happening right now. Um, >> yeah, the like you said, the the generation that should be now helping

the sport evolve and the people involved, they're not involved with it, >> right? >> You don't see these 18, 19 year old people out there. And I mean, you see, I mean, I I will say for decoys, but obviously for decoys, young athletic men that want to get in a suit and test a dog and whatever that, you know, I I will say that it's a little bit easier to evolve for for decoys as young, you know, young young people. But you're right, there's there's there's like a whole it's like a whole generation of people missing that we should have involved that are going to be the backbone for everything for all the dog sports in my opinion. >> Right. Right. It it's like a there has to be some some unification but it has to be man it's so complicated. This whole thing is so complicated cuz like FCI like they they really don't do much to stand up and and protect this kind of dog sports that we do. They they're just there for different it's like let's sell pedigress, let's have shows and >> yeah the protection sports whatever. But um yeah. So where is NA championship this year? >> It's in Atlanta. >> In Atlanta. >> What do you expect? >> We're going to we're going to take you there. You're coming. >> Yeah. I dude I I've like I I you know regardless of what kind of I mean really regardless what I do with bite suit as far as training or or let's say right now we're really going pretty hard with muring. Um but French ring it's just there is no it's just impossible if you want to be serious about suit protection training not to understand at least the the basic fundamentals of French ring you you are completely handicapped as far as knowing what's about you you know, like you just have no idea what's about. Um but Mondo Ring has this world presence to where there there is this this something about you know okay I'm competing against many other countries and whatever and French ring just it just seems like they just protected so much that discourages people like what you guys did. This is I mean you're really breaking walls to to make something happen and you actually made it happen which is insane. But but what you did it's just it's exceptional. It's not a, you know, not not not simply because of your efforts and everything, but just how >> how protected the French ring is by the French people and breaking in and being on the top. It will be very interesting for the next few years to maybe it goes in a better direction overall, you know. instead of instead of going the other way because it could go the other way too. >> Yeah. >> Yeah, for sure.

>> And that's and like I said earlier, that's I don't want to say it's what I'm afraid of, but I don't you know I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to pressure things too much, >> right? No, for right now, I think what you guys did, it's it's it's good enough to to let it simmer in everybody's head. And but I wish that every, you know, the the the people that are in the high the the the decision makers, you know, they take under consideration the pros and cons. they outweigh it and and they realize that there is a need of of coming together globally to for all of us to be able to continue to go on, you know. >> Yeah. >> Like there is no other way. No, >> guys. We we definitely need to do one more. >> For sure. >> Because I I uh uh again like I I mean the the pet training business, the the breeding stuff like we >> I I was all over the place cuz I just have so many things in my head. >> Yeah, for sure. >> But but uh um there is a lot of stuff that we haven't even touched upon that are still very interesting to talk about. So, we we're definitely gonna do round two. And >> um yeah, champion. >> Even Even when they say you're not champion, everybody knows who it is. >> You got to edit that part out. >> All right, take it out. >> Yeah. >> No, it's in English. No one No one will understand. Yeah, just just don't just don't do French subtitles on this podcast. >> So, what do we call what what so so how did they what is your title like like >> cup champion? Cup champion of France. >> Okay. >> I have no no championship involvement whatsoever. >> They didn't even put a score in my book. >> But Ivan, let's call it what it is. You said it. The world knows. the world knows, man. >> And I told her that I told her that she she asked me even a month before she said, "What if what if I won?" I said, "And you know, I don't get the trophy." I'm like, "It doesn't it doesn't matter. >> No, >> it doesn't matter because every single person, >> yes, >> will know." >> No, you guys made history and that's not going away. And then just sure somebody Yeah. Trophy is a trophy. But >> yeah, >> the numbers are numbers, too. >> We're not even going to give Myestro We're not going to have Myestro and little subtitles underneath him. It's just going to be Myestro is his own. That's his own. >> I like it. >> He's own He's his own uh achievement. >> Well, now you guys going to have to have a this tough choices. What about you, Chad? What are you like with your dog? Where would you Where are you at? What's the What's the plan? >> After this, we wrap it up cuz again, I I I I just cannot stop. I'm telling you, we have so many things to talk about.

Like, we haven't even touched anything. >> I've been empty for >> I know we haven't even touched anything about actual training and different ideas and like I there's just so much to talk about. So, >> well, tell me about the dog. podcast too, I'll tell you about my my dog, but for the next podcast too, I want to I want to explain how we prepared for each of the select >> and like against the decoys and like that's >> Yeah. This is all the chess game. This is like the the this is what the you know people that listen there is so much in there. That's the chess games. This is like this is what's about. >> So I currently with with my dog it's uh again I'll keep this as simple as possible because I know we're ending up here but it's been hard for me because the dog I retired um in 2023, my dog Ktos, which is a half brother to my Estro. >> Um that was my that was my dog. That was that was my my estro. You know what I mean? That was just that was just if I could have that dog 10 times over, it would be that dog. So, it was very hard for me obviously to go in to start. I've been I've been very lucky and very fortunate with all the dogs that I've had. Um I've had I've had seven seven dogs now that I've taken to ring three and they've all been outstanding, exceptional dogs. And but after KTOS it was going to be hard for me because of course we're going to do everything that we're not supposed to but we're going to compare to that last dog special dog. So >> I have a dog now. He's two years old. Name is Houston. Incredible dog. Very nice dog. >> Much different style dog than what I'm used to. It's not a dog that came from my breeding. I actually got acquired him from a friend of mine. Um I was just kind of in a spot. I didn't have any litters coming up. I wanted to keep going in the game. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Offered a pick of the litter. I said, "Absolutely. I'll take I'll take a puppy." So, that's the dog that I've been been working with currently. >> I did what I don't recommend anybody ever doing and what I preach to everybody of what not to do. I did I took him from Beret to ring three in seven months. So, we just did our BVE last September. We just finished our three our first ring three in France uh two months ago. So, he's two and a half years old. He's playing ring three. Um, he's a dog that I'll be actively competing with hopefully for the next years. >> Nice dog. Um, I don't have any complaints about him, but he's he's the next dog that uh that I'll be uh doing my >> um I'll be we have a handful of breedings planned and again we'll talk about this next time, but got a handful of breedings planned coming up and I'm

going to be keeping um a puppy from one of those litters too and kind of continuing. I found once this dog gets to this age, I need to start getting a puppy in the pipeline. And it kind of keeps me, >> you know, you you know the program. >> I know the program. I actually I overdid it lately. I I just got stuck with I I have a I mean, what he's like four and a half. My the male that I'm competing with that I'm like really having high hopes with. Then I have a female that I'm doing Mondu and just got level two. Um then I have another female that was a sister of the one that I'm doing Mu that came back because it was the people divorced with family stuff, right? >> So she came back and and man an exceptional an exceptional dog from any angle you see it. And I I kind of called bunch of friends. And I'm like, I have this insanely cool dog. And somehow the interest was not there or I didn't I don't know. Maybe >> keeper >> secretly was like, I'm going to keep her. My wife is like, you're crazy. I'm like, I don't know what to do. I can't let her go. So now I had the male, the two sisters, one Mondu, one IGP, and then I had a dog that I, you know, I kind of like you. I I do train protection dogs. I sell protection dogs. So I had him raised in New York. He comes back 10 months old, ready for some training. And I'm like, I cannot give him away. And now my wife is like, she just wants to kill me. >> I know. I know. This is where I am right now. I have >> four dogs that I'm actively training. I'm I'm like I have my own club >> just for you. >> God bless. So I I I will say is that one of the one of the most insane things I ever did and I could not do it again is I had in 207 2016 and 2017 I was actively competing three dogs and ring three >> price. Yeah. O >> three dogs in ring three >> and okay this dog this dog was Pabuj this other dog was rest. This dog was >> tell on the hurdle. This dog was 10 paces on the hurdle. This dog was six paces on the hurdle. This dog was three paces on the broad jump on the palisade. This dog was five paces and I [ __ ] up so much [ __ ] >> Yes, that that's that's also Karly. What about you? You have a something coming up or what? >> I had a puppy that I kept from our last breeding and I actually sold him on Saturday because then my mind was like, >> "Okay, my is done. I'll be ready for a puppy." I really don't want to be training two dogs at once. So, God bless you. >> Smart. >> Um, and I just didn't have the time for him. My friend had him. >> Been gone since February, >> you know what I mean? In the crucial times for a young puppy and things like that. >> He's a he's a good dog and he'll be a

good ring dog for someone. So, I I sold him and they're head over heels already. So, I just I'm in it for what's best for the dog. I don't technically have another dog, but now I technically do. As of this past week, we have a we have a female that we took from um a breeding in France that was supposed to be sold as a protection dog, but Chad and I got screwed with um two females that we got as puppies. They just were so small, these females that we got. So, we ended up placing them. And then this female came to us about six months ago, would you say? >> Mhm. >> And she's phenomenal. She's just a really, really, really cool dog. And so I'm like, well, screw it. I'll just play around with her. She's not a puppy, you know? So I'm like, I'll just just play around with her. So that's what I've kind of been doing. And I'm like, all right, I guess I'll do her bre in August at our trial. But >> I'm gonna have too many options for puppies with my Estro breedings coming up. So, I'm just I'm just gonna kind of wait until it's a good time and we'll see because if I do another year with him, I really don't want to have a >> Yeah. No, you're you're doing it the right way. For sure. That is for sure the right way. >> Yeah, that's the right way. What like is is this the the how how how common it is for a female to be very competitive in French ring? like very competitive. >> Honestly, I think because there are few. So, here's here's my my interpretation of this because there are very few female handlers. I think that the women that have made it to the highest level and have gotten there have the grit and the determination to >> be serious and to be >> competitive. Does that make sense? >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, he's talking more about female dogs. >> Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. >> But that's interesting as well. That that's also a whole different conversation. That's very interesting. >> Regarding female dogs, there was there was only one female in the final championship this year. And of course, the same reason everyone says, "Oh, you have a nice female." And then, you know, a month before she comes in a heat, she's a complete idiot. And then you can't work her when she's in heat because she doesn't use her brain. And then >> yeah, >> you breed her. If she's a good female, then she's out for 6 months because that's it. And nobody wants to deal with that. >> How often do you see females, even if it's not on the high level, but females just just >> in in in clubs or or even just training that can stand that stand their ground. >> Yep. Yep. Um not as much as I'd like to see. >> Yeah, for sure. Hi, Tate. Can you say hi to Ivan? >> Hi.

>> We're talking for so long now. >> Like, what the hell are you guys doing? >> Yeah, she had to check on us. >> But the the female I got spoiled because my esro's grandmother, the female that I had, she's the she's the only female to ever win a nera championship. >> Okay. >> Incredible dog. I could work that dog. It did not matter what was going on. I could work. That dog was the most consistent dog I've ever owned. She was outstanding in heat, out of heat, after puppies, everything. That dog would was 110% all the time. She was great. Um, but meanwhile, I've had a handful of other, you know, females I've kind of played with or club members I've had since then, and I'm like, man, this is such a nice dog. And then I feel like I feel like I I've again I've had so many amazing dogs, but I feel like the relationship I had with my female dog though was >> I don't want to say better, but just >> it's a different my male dogs for sure. >> And >> I think female dogs pay attention. They're a little more in tune in the interaction, right? >> Yep. Yeah. No, my my next uh female that or next dog that I take, I'm pretty sure is going to be a female. >> Wow. >> So, >> wow. >> That'll be that'll be the next upand cominging that I think I'm going to give a go again is is another female. But I I personally nothing for me beats a solid female all day long. But finding them is hard, >> right? >> Finding them that that that can work through the emotions and all the, you know, >> guys, we stop >> part part two. >> We we're definitely doing part two. Thank you for doing this. And again, congratulations to both of you and everybody else that was involved in this. This is this is history >> and and it's freaking amazing. >> So, >> so happy for you guys as well to this. >> The next step is we all have to get together for sure. >> That has to happen as well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. That and I'm sure that's going to happen. >> Yeah. >> All right, guys. Have a good evening there. >> Yeah. Let us know when you want to do >> Oh, for sure. For sure. I'll be in touch. >> We'll connect. We'll we'll connect and we'll plan part two. >> Yes. All right, guys. Take care. >> Thank you. >> Have a good one.