FORCE FREE - KAIZEN K9

[00:00] I didn't know it was so long. It's too tough to say exactly. Sorry, it's not too bad, but yeah. It's a teaching. Well, this says... I can't reach it. Just a second. [00:25] I'm just having trouble logging on. Say it again, Ben. It's just having trouble going live. Just bear with me a sec. I'll let you know when we've gone live. Yeah. Unconscious, incompetence is the bottom. Unconscious, incompetence is the bottom. Incompetence. Unconscious, incompetence. Yes, and then you're consciously incompetent. [00:53] Sorry? Oh, okay. Are you sure we're live? Yep. Okay. We're good, guys. We're live. Sorry about that. I'm a bit technically retarded, but we got there. Okay. How are you, Bart and Michael? Good to see you, as always. [01:19] Good. Thanks very much for giving us your time. I really appreciate it. Well, it's a nice topic again, huh? Yeah. Hot as the Himalaya. So, should we do some small talk? How's things going in the balance world? What's the latest in your world at the moment? [01:45] Well, Michael and I did work hard to kick off that first new silver school, where our drama is that over the years, we could not reach thousands and thousands and thousands of people. That's our drama. That's our drama. So, we try to catch up. That's why now we go for a system where Michael and I do teaching before a bigger crowd. [02:14] And that the actual gold circuit will do the hands on dogs. So, we will prepare people cognitively. And you guys, the existent gold people, and we call that the gold multiplicators, you guys will take over the hands on dogs. And some will be very, very successful. [02:41] And some will need a few more years to ride. It's always like that. Yeah. If Michael's career, my career, we were not the best of the best from in the beginning, you must learn by doing. Yeah. And different types of dogs. And I can only speak for me. Because for me, it was time to stop because I didn't become schizophrenic about dogs. [03:07] And it never happens. Well, it always happens. When people say it never happened before, it will happen. And we were very lucky that we did not have big accidents because there is always a line snapping. There is always a chain breaking. There is always a dog running out of the crate. There is always a dog is not clean in the out and so on and so on. So, it always happens.

[03:33] It certainly does. Or you do scent work or tracking work and a dog is frustrated and you come too close. It's competition on foot or competition on prep or competition on track. The dog turns around, boom, and nails you. We did see all that, eh? Hey, Michael Bart, why are you so careful? Well, we are careful because we have experience. We call it triple safety. Yeah, I'm very careful as well actually. [03:59] Probably for the same reasons. I've been tagged more times than I care to remember. Wait, Ben. In 10 years, you're going to say, Michael Bart and Shizofreen also. It's time to stop. Yeah, hopefully. Hopefully I can get another 10 years. Yeah. And the tendency of dogs that become bigger and bigger and 80 kilo dogs and 100 kilo dogs [04:24] and dogs that should be in the mountains now live in the city in a little room. Yeah. Yeah. Special tendency. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. Let's have a talk about why we're here. So I wanted to kick off with a question first. What do you guys think of the whole discussion between Zach, George, Ivan, and Robert Cabral? You answer. [04:52] What do we think of it? Yeah, what do you think of it? What do you make of it? I think that Zach has a lot of followers of people who don't know very much. Yeah. I mean, Ivan is quite proficient. Robert is quite proficient. So the tendency of the world right now is to go more and more regulations and being kind [05:26] and being soft and snowflakes and but it is a myth, like you said. Michael said very nice. I will not be so nice. In the podcast about the riser with Ivan, riser said something very strong. There is four levels of the learning stages. [05:52] The first level where hundreds of millions of people are is. Exactly. Maybe they're also unconscious incompetence. There were a lot of passion. But they are the biggest majority. And then later they become conscious that they are incompetent. [06:17] That they know they have something to learn. And that they know that there is other dogs than dogs that only listen for a pinch collar or dogs that only listen for a piece of fruit or a bowl. So you open your spectrum. Because I was the same in the beginning. I was always also at that level of I never need an e-collar in my life. I was the same. Until I had the dog that told me you need it.

[06:43] And there I changed my mind drastically. So, and then you have the third level. Then people go left and right and they open the website and search about positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and all types of reinforcement and more information. And then they are very cognitive. [07:10] And yes, they are competent, but they are not doing it in reflex response. The stage of learning that's called conscious competence. So if you're thinking very hard about it, you can be competent. And then I remember it then. My career started in 1974, 1992 Belgian champ with the impossible dog. [07:39] And then people ask you, how did you do? And then you go to the seminars, what we call the jobby, where you have the little ching ching, the money, eh? Beside your job. And then you're very, wow, they ask me, but then you say, whoa, I don't know what I do. Right. Because I was champ and I had no clue what I did. [08:04] But I was champ. Reflex response. Reflex response. Mm hmm. That means that I did something right, but I could not cognitively tell it. And that's why Michael and I over the years did start the school to make a cognitive process. And yes, we prepare people cognitively, but that takes years because before you can switch it around, we always say five years by training a lot and by implementing it a lot on different dogs. [08:34] So that means that to go back to your question about the hype on the internet, it's good that it did stay very polite. That's very good. There was not too much mud throwing. What me personally, I did like very much in what Robert Cabral said is that they mix too much professors in the pie. The cognitive people that never show on the field. [09:00] Train the dog. And a lot of university degrees that in the name of science can do cruel stuff because that was also a little bit the message. And what you see on the internet is you see people. Hey, it's easier. When I was a young kid, 1974, I was 14 years old and we trained the dogs with two bamboo sticks. [09:25] And then there was an old farmer, wise farmer that never went to high school. Maybe they do seven degrees, which is basically. So not a book wise guy. And he told me, Maneke, little guy. If you use the bamboo, you must be able to pet your dog with the bamboo. With the same stick, you must be able to give directions. The tactile command, the tactile help.

[09:54] With the same bamboo, you must be able to reinforce the speed. Sit down, stand still. The reinforcer of the command. And with the same bamboo, he said, when you say sit and the dog knows very well how to sit and it does not do. Boom, boom. Little correction punishment. And after that, he must sit. And after that, you throw the bamboo away in a fetch game and he must bring it with heart and soul. That guy told us everything. [10:21] So we discussed with professors and with Professor X and with Zach and whoever and with cortisol and dopamine. And that farmer did tell it so easy, so simple. But I was not right for it. I was 14 years old. I did not understand it. Imagine that my daddy, my daddy had big hands and he only used his big hands to smack on my ears. [10:48] I would be afraid of his hands. Well, I was not afraid of his hands. I had respect for his hands because yes, now and then he touched me on my ass with his hands, but I did deserve it. And with the same hands, you say, good Bart, good Monica. And he did help me with his big hands. So that's the harmony. That's the teamwork that you must achieve. And you don't need a university teacher to tell you that. That's a little bit basic stuff. [11:14] We shouldn't make it more complicated. Yeah. And also, I think that people are acting like tools are always used for making a grand statement when really a tool is just like a doctor's scalpel. It's the right thing that makes it very easy. For example, two years ago when my mother was 78 years old, she had a corgi that was three. [11:41] And he always would a little bit pull her down the street and she was afraid that she was going to fall. But she said, I want to be sure my dog goes for a walk, but I can't afford to fall and break my leg. So I said, just put a pinch collar on your dog. And she said, I don't want to. I don't want to be hard on him. I said, you won't. He'll just walk nicely. So she put the pinch collar on and now the dog kept up his quality of life. [12:09] She kept up her quality of life. She said, it's like magic. You just put it on and you walk. So what's the problem? Now, to go back to your question about the hype on the internet. I'm convinced Mike and I, we are on the top of the summit. I'm convinced that Ivan Balabanov is there and I'm convinced that Robert is there.

[12:38] I'm not convinced that Zach is at that level. So it's a discussion between people that don't have the same experience. But Zach has the biggest group of followers and that's a politic reality. So the reality is the two, three million people, they vote and they have power. My old man was a smart guy. He always said, Bart, it is not being right in life that is important. [13:07] It's receiving approval. The votes. That's what he told me. I never forget it. And he was quite right. And you know, the more you know, the more you are lonely. Yeah. Yeah. The higher you go in that ranking, you're going to see that they've been in 10 years. If people speak to you about doctors, you say, huh? And what is he talking about? And also, it would be interesting for somebody to ask someone like Zach, what is your definition of dog training? [13:35] Yeah. Yeah. Because that changes everything. Michael and I, we like definitions. And if you speak about definitions, you can start the whole thing. For example, the big hype, positive training. Well, what is the definition of positive training? For us, positive training is you reward with a positive reinforcer the behavior that you like to increase the chance that the dog will do that again. [14:08] That is the definition of positive reinforcement. And then what people don't understand is that every system has the consequence for what do I do when dog does what I want him to do. In this case, I reward him with something he likes. Okay. Then there is a second thing that is important in dog training. What do I do in my positive training when dog does not do what I like him to do, but still does not understand? [14:40] We do nothing. We don't reward. We do nothing. And then come the third thing. What do I do when dog understands very well in my positive training, but does not do well for not doing? I must giving a correction slash punishment or wherever you call it. We have our definitions for that. And that punishment and that correction must stop the bullshit and kick the dog in behavior. [15:08] Now, in positive reinforcement, the consequence for not doing, nobody speaks about it. Because positive reinforcement is sold as a marketing system. We always give. We always give. We always reward. We always kiss. Try to kiss away. Try to reward away unwanted behavior. That works in three times.

[15:33] Not today. Not tomorrow. Never. Yeah. That's what you want to hear. But that's the reality. Dogs do, but sometimes dogs don't do. But the correction in positive training is to not give the thing that they want. Because it's a good reward, then it's a good punishment when they don't get. But it's possible that people like Zach are in po-po-ne. So. [15:59] What. What Michael and I always try to explain to people is. We never ridiculize positive reinforcement. First of all, positive reinforcement is a very good system, but you must understand it in the whole power. Yeah. People only understand it in the power of rewarding, rewarding, rewarding. Well, there is also a moment where the dog does not do in despite of everything you did. [16:29] And the dog gives you the finger. What do I do there? Well, if you train with food, you stop the exercise and you stop giving the food. And for longer than one second. And that's a very strong consequence. If you keep that consequence for a few hours slash 24 hours, that's strong. Very strong. That is a good consequence for not doing. [16:54] If you train with the ball, you cannot say we stop and you don't give the ball because the dog does not need the ball. So it means that if you train with the ball, you can reward. But there is a very strong problem in correcting there. You need something else to correct effectively. Yeah. Yeah. One big problem of positive reward is that the dog has to offer that in order for you to reward it. [17:23] Yeah. Now, imagine we train with food because Michael and I, we are very. We are very good in teaching and we learned over the years how to motivate it. Imagine we teach a dog with positive reinforcement with food. And we have. We are so lucky that the dog eats 150 kibbles per day. [17:48] Okay. 150 kibbles. That means that if I give one kibble for every behavior, I can do 150 reps repetitions. Okay. We know, and that's from a guy, and I don't know if he's still alive. Professor Wunderling was a German guy and he was professor in the XDDR. [18:13] And in the XDDR dog training, you had to be licensed to train a dog. So Jobop could not train a dog without the license. So dog training was a quite strong thing to do in those days. And Wunderling, Hans Wunderling, always told me, Bart, in positive reinforcement, you need

[18:39] between 4,000 and 6,000 repetitions to make the dog do when your reward is stronger than the distractions of the world. That's the reality, he said. I don't know where those figures come from, but to me and to Michael, it makes sense. Now you have your 150 kibbles a day. Okay. [19:04] And you must do 4,000 reps. Well, I can do 150 reps a day. Imagine you have a dog. Just say it for three weeks, 20 days. Okay. 20 days. 20 days. 20 days. I have 3,000 reps in 20 days with my kibbles. So I just can train one behavior. [19:29] And basically, if you have a dog in your training camp for two, three weeks, you tell the dog, come here, go to your mat place, come to me, a sit and a down. That's the classical thing, five exercises. So now you must put all your money, your 150 kibbles over five exercises. So you can do 30 reps per day. [19:55] Times 20, you have 600 reps and you need 4,000 minimum. It is a no go. It does. It cannot work. It cannot work. And now you have a chihuahua and that chihuahua can only eat five kibbles a day. Now you are. Now you are. That's the subject. And I think a lot of the people are confusing negative reinforcements with punishments. And that's why they're so upset about it. Because they don't really understand what negative reinforcement is. [20:23] Yeah. There is a moment of reality. And Michael and I, we can train dogs. For example, Michael now has a young dog, Zot. Fantastic dog. Eater is like a pig. He can eat the whole day. So you could do 1,000 repetitions a day. But then he wiggle waggles to you. We don't want that either. And Michael stays with that dog in positive, positive, positive. [20:50] And she toughens him up. And one day she will introduce negative reinforcement. And Michael will do the contact method. She will tap with the pinch collar, tap with the stick, tap with the e-collar. In every command, the dog already does perfect. To prepare him for that cessation. And to prepare the dog for the eventual correction that will come one day for disobedience due to strong distraction. [21:21] That's the reality. So Michael prepares that dog for one day understanding that language of the correction. And there is a thousand ways to roam. People have their way. We have our way. And we try to teach people different ways. But it's a way that works very well. And it's a way that shows you a dog that works with heart and soul. But it also shows your dog always on cue.

[21:48] Because having a happy dog, well, it's like, hey, we live here in the country where the Amish people have between 10 and 15 kids. Those kids, Ben, they listen. They do listen like when I was a kid. When I was a kid, we did listen. When the old men say left, we went left. And when they say stop crying, the kids stop crying immediately. So, and of course, the smaller the families, the more the kids have freedom of thinking and there is not too much obedience anymore, which is typically. [22:26] For example, my daughter has one son. And I don't see him every time. He's a nice little kid. But if you have one kid, it's a little bit spoiled, of course. Just close. And the kid has the syndrome of all her dogs, a little bit too strong ego. Of all her dogs and her daddy. I call the little guy, Finn, come here. [22:54] He plays deaf. No daddy hears me. And then I tell to my daughter, where's his money? Where does he has his little pig with money? Piggy bang. Piggy bang. I take piggy bang, put him, he looks to me like, what are you doing? I say, yeah, that money's fine. Nonstop he was looking to me. He likes money. Nonstop he was looking to me. And then I went away and then he was pissed because I did not give him his money back. [23:23] Now, I call a slice to me. It's consequences. But I used to always get away with the bullshit. Nobody does implement it. Yeah. It's always the same thing. Yeah. I think it's us. Right. I did implement negative punishment, negative correction. I did take away what he likes. Yeah. Right. It's like in the book that you guys did read for the school, the talent code is like the teacher. [23:51] It's an open class, open doors. Nobody has a bench. You do well, you'll see the bench. You do better. You'll receive a seat. You do better. You'll see paper. You do better. You'll receive a pen. You do worse. They take away your pen. They take away your pen. They take away your care. And that was a problem school. And that teacher did achieve that. All the students did learn and were very good. Yeah. So in life, you need somebody that can play with motivation. [24:20] And that teacher was not kicking their ass. The teacher was just implementing the rules of positive reinforcement. Yeah. The power I give, but I also take away. And that's what people don't understand. And in the positive reinforcement, it has been sold as a marketing system. And the federations, they jump on it. And everybody, they jump on it. And the behavior is then that ended up. And in 1984, Karen Pryor writes the book and a very good book.

[24:51] Don't shoot a dog. Every dog trainer should read that. But it became the Bible of evidence that everything that is not positive should be banned. And that's wrong. Now we go to the wrong world. Yeah. So, I mean, yes, it was very important that guys like me did learn about positive reinforcement in the full power. We confess. [25:16] But if they would be so open minded like we, we would have a nice world. Yeah. We have the impression that it becomes a very strict religion where if you don't do it, you are out loud. The dogs in other systems are not accepted and so on and so on. So it becomes very, very problematic. So we, me, us three all agree, like the force free mentality, the positive only mentality is a bit ridiculous. [25:55] It doesn't really make sense with it. Every other living organism on earth understands move towards good and go away from bad. So why do you think in dog training specifically, this positive only movement is, has, has taken the world by storm and, and has been pushed all over the place and all these other animal welfare agencies are going, yeah, that's a great idea. [26:21] And, and vets are saying, yeah, you should only use positive reinforcement. Why is that happening? Why is that happening? Uh, I think part of it is not good definitions, people understanding definitions and people having a little bit of ignorance. Yeah. So as Bart said before, a lot of people understand in positive reinforcement, the reward, what you do, but they don't understand. [26:47] They don't understand, they don't use the full spectrum. Yeah. So they automatically think that negative reinforcement is punishment. They're getting their, their definitions all screwed up. Yeah. Yeah. I think Ben that, Michael and I, we like definitions. That means that let's speak about what is the animal welfare law telling worldwide worldwide. [27:21] Worldwide animal welfare tells about the same. It is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog suffer. The valid reason where you must inflict pain is when your dog bites a human being, even a scumbag, even an enemy, you must stop that biting action as soon as possible. [27:50] Otherwise you have problems. And there is a second reason why you must inflict pain is when you must, or you can save the life of your animal. There you must inflict pain to save your animal. An example, my dog jumps out of the window. I'm on the 10th floor. I catch him at his tail. He's badly hurt, but I did save the life of the animal.

[28:15] I cannot go in jail for that. I did implement pain because it was painful. I did save the life of that animal. And that's what people must understand. What is the law saying? And how is it implemented? And that's the whole problem. Emotions, emotions, emotions. So the valid reason, there is no discussion about that. You know, no discussion. What is pain? [28:41] Big discussion about that. It's elastic. And what is suffering? Big elastic. Pain. The fakir. The guy likes to sleep on a bed with nails. And he enjoys it. If I'm on the bed with nails one second, I'm very painful. And I'm still suffering later. And what is suffering? Some people suffer when they don't have coffee. [29:06] And some people don't suffer from that. I mean, and dogs say, man. Some people run marathons and it's not suffering for them. It's subjective case by case. Yeah. So that animal welfare law is clear. It's the way they implement it that it is not clear. Interpreted. Interpreted. And then another thing is there is that animal welfare law that speaks for what they call consumption animals. [29:34] There is very uniform in Europe, very uniform. They even say how the animals must go on a truck, how long the truck can drive and so on and so on. That is for all Europe. All the countries the same. Again, the problem is that the animal welfare law can be interpreted a different way, state by state, country by country. In Belgium, we have three states and all three of them can interpret it the way they want. [30:06] For example, our minister in the north, the minister of animal welfare, which is the same minister as agriculture. Agriculture is the same portfolio. He says in 2027, all those cruel techniques must stop. And in 2027, you must start only positive. So no more pinch collar, no more e-collar, no more pull or choke collar. [30:35] But in the meantime, you still can be cruel. Yeah. That doesn't make sense. That's a joke. But there you see a politic agenda where the minister of agriculture receive ka-ching, ka-ching from the European community if they are in line. The same happens in France. Yes. In France two weeks ago, in the L'Assemblée Générale, which is the chamber where they passed the new laws, there is a lady that says, Corinne, whatever her name is, no more e-collars, no more pinch collar.

[31:08] No more choke collar. For nobody, only the French army, because they're training in Népropo. Well, it's unbelievable. So the whole world is changing. That means that France, on the pressure from EU, wants to be a good structure. Believe me, in five years, Europe is no more pinch collar, no more e-collar. [31:33] And the only exception will be people with the license. And the license in this case is Népropo. And Michael and I, we did not lobby for that. We did do nothing. We just did speak with the general of the army and we told him, if a soldier with a working dog is in war, and if his dog is biting a human being, even the enemy, the soldier must stop that biting action immediately. [32:01] If he cannot, there is another rule that overrules animal welfare, and that is the Geneva Convention. And then that soldier goes on court for Geneva Convention. And if I'm the soldier, I tell the convention, the court, well, ladies and gentlemen, that my general did not train me how to act in these cases. And my general did not give me tools to prevent that my dog is not outing. [32:29] And now the general goes in jail. Like not long ago, the guy that was in charge for Rwanda, the Rwanda massacre, that big Canadian guy had big problems because he was in charge. That's how it works. I mean, we did not lobby for it, but the future is licensing, licensing, licensing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [32:55] And if the organizations are smart, they stop giving membership cards away. Stop that bullshit. You must earn your membership. You come to school, you learn everything about positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, how to implement it, how to mix it, how to train. And now you can buy your membership card. And now when that person is not lined up like he should, we can kick that person out. [33:21] Now they try to pick up Michael and Bart Bellon because they are not nice. They say, hey, you're playing with the wrong guys here. You guys didn't tell us how to train and so on and so on. So yeah, yeah. The world and the start is always what is the law saying? It is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain and to make my dog suffer. [33:48] Well, if a dog bites a child, you must implement pain immediately. Yeah. Even if you are a very nice person. If you don't do it, you go in jail. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right. I've got another question for you. Can you guys explain why there's so little evidence of force free trained dogs performing off leash behaviors in real world settings, in real world situations?

[34:22] So if you go in and jump on the internet today and try and look up force free dog recalling from a chasing a kangaroo or chasing a squirrel for Americans. Why is there so little evidence of that? Do you guys know or can you elaborate on that? I have no idea. I think that the e-caller is the best longhand communication for distance. [34:57] So I always, when I was training in for pet customers, I always said, if you want off leash distance, I have to use an e-caller. Because that's 100%. That's your insurance. Without that, you can't have you. You have no insurance. What are you going to do when the dog doesn't do? [35:22] Yeah. Yeah. So that's why the positive only people have trouble to show that. Yeah. I think that a lot of them live in a very happy world. They are convinced. That's why they're in that step of they are incompetent, but they are not aware that they are incompetent and they believe their dreams. [35:48] I was like that also. My dog was my best friend. And the other thing is, is it's a little bit like when you show a dog that does really well with helpers around and he's obedient and he's listening extremely well. That's impressive. If you can tell that dog to bite right after. Right. But if the dog doesn't like biting, then it's not a distraction. Yeah. So if you have farm animals and you have a dog that's coming back when you call, well, maybe they have no interest in farm animals. [36:22] So that's easy. Yeah. So show us a dog that really likes to chase farm animals, let them chase the farm animal and then call them back. Yeah. That's showing something. And you pretty much can't find that anywhere. Well, maybe it's easier, Ben, when dogs do a behavior with heart and soul, the behavior, whatever they do is the most rewarding. [36:47] Yeah. And if that behavior is running behind a kangaroo, well, you must have two kangaroos in your pocket to recall him. That's the reality. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's not all about punishing your dog. And I mean, Jack comes very well and she wore an e-collar for a long time, but she wasn't given high stims. [37:13] She was given reinforcements to come back. And now if she's not wearing a collar, you've probably seen Bart show videos training bite work with her wearing nothing because it's. It's part of her. Yeah. She's been taught to listen. And then. So it's reflex response. For us, training dogs is a full time job.

[37:38] Most people have another full time job and then they come home. And then. They have a dog that is specialized in reading people. And the dog comes away with all the bullshit you cannot believe. But people. And it's normal because people have a full time job and they have no time for this. Our young dog. When he was young, every time he looked to us, we did. [38:06] Good job. You call that dog. He flies to you at a speed. You cannot believe. But that was a full time job. Yeah, but for nothing. We have to come full time job. And most people don't have that occasion. They must have another work. And they cannot do those foundations. They cannot. Because they don't have the time to do it. They don't have the know how to do it. [38:32] And so on and so on. And of course, some of them can. But. And then there is types of dog that fits perfectly in those families. And that's a big danger for the moment. And there. I have a friend in Belgium and his name is Andre van der Goeten. And Andre van der Goeten was. The first guy in Belgium that went to the etnological university in Holland, Utrecht, to have the etnological university degree, which was unique. [39:04] And of course, they were indoctrinated about positive reinforcement. Indoctrination already started then. And Andre, which was a good friend, told me, Bart, there is a hidden agenda. And the hidden agenda is. No more dog sport with biting. That's the first agenda, because they know very well that when the dog is really biting, you cannot control him with a cookie. [39:37] It's impossible. And if it's possible, it's because he's not really biting. OK, so that's a fact. And then he said that's the first step. And then the last step is no more dogs with animation, because a dog that has animation is self rewarding by barking is self rewarding by running behind the cats. And they know exactly that they cannot control those dogs with positive reinforcement. [40:06] So there is a hunt on those types of dogs. So there will be a hunt on all the dogs. And the dog that is the dog that is the carpet and that doesn't move. And then next, that's the battle is no more animals in human hands. [40:31] That's what he told me. Late 70s. I never forget it. And everything came true. It's like in America. Nobody believes that there will a license will be implemented. Nobody believes that pinch colors, all these things will stop. Nobody believes it. Well, we were not believing it in Europe neither. But we focus it now. Right down. 2027 is the end of Belgian ring sport.

[40:56] How you want to train a dog like that on that level without the e-collar. It does not work. Do we go back to the old days? Hey, going back to the old days. I have an example. I sit in a skid steer and I with a crane or I do the crane. And then there is a smart guy that says we go back to the old days. Okay, the crane away and we all take a shuffle thousand people with a shuffle. [41:21] It's still too modern. Throw away. We go with the spoon. You know what we all say? Are you crazy or what? Yeah. Back to the old days. I sat together in the early 90s. Helmut Reiser, Opus Engelbert, Uwe Heis, Helmut König and two other people. [41:50] And we were fighting to bring the e-collar in. Legally. In Germany. And we did succeed quite well. And then we did sell the sport as a prey game. We do the sport because it's prey and la la lee and la la la. And we just bite on the sleeve. That is the sleeve or that it is a ball. It's the same. And then today we see all those videos where the dog shows aggression on the men. [42:16] We did save the sport. And then the new generation is busy killing it because the politicians don't accept that. It's not clear. It's not clear. I had a friend and he was the chief security of the Vienna airport. Chief security. And the dogs were not allowed to sniff on human beings. It was not allowed due to World War II and World War I. They were traumatized by dogs. [42:42] So the dogs were not allowed to sniff on people. What did France do? France did put people in a box. They'd suck out the air of the box and it'd bring it to the dogs. So we live in a crazy world. And we were in the late nineties, we were working very hard to make everything working well. And now they destroy everything we did make. They destroy everything. [43:07] It's unbelievable to see. And they like the aggression and they like this. So do you guys think that being the e-collar will improve the welfare of the world? Do you think that being the e-collar will improve the welfare of dogs? No. No. No, I think. No. No, because a lot of people need that hearing aid. [43:33] Or like Justin Ridney recently said, the feeling aid, which is perfect demonstration of a dog that is so high that they don't hear it, but they feel you. A lot of dogs due to the e-collar have full freedom. Yes. Full freedom. And they can run around and they can run in the boots and whatever. If there is no more e-collar, you will see something.

[43:58] Big problems. And then the dog hold their lives on the leash. What a life is that. And for us, we are trainers and we ask for a lot more and we want our dogs to listen with no tools and blah, blah, blah. But for the regular person, why not wear an e-collar and just reinforce it? Michael is 1000% right there. Yeah. [44:23] Why should Joe Bob not be allowed to put a hearing aid or a feeling aid on the dog? To save dogs from running across the street, getting run over by cars, running away, biting people, getting in dog fights. What's the problem? We saw dogs perfectly behaving because the trainer had the antenna out of his pocket. Perfect. The dog was listening. [44:48] What's the problem? The guy was not interested in competition. The dog was listening. Well, it's fantastic. And the dog has no stress from it. Right. So that's another invention. They understand it perfectly. And then that's another thing. The word stress. Everybody always uses the word stress. Well, we're going to define the definition. Stress. Double point. [45:15] Uncontrolled reactions of the organism on physiological and psychological pressure. It's uncontrollable. And once it's controllable, there is no more stress. And I can say that in different languages. But there you define the word stress. Stress is what you cannot control it. Ben, in the beginning, when you stand for the first time in front of people, you do an apropos seminar. You will feel your hands wet. [45:41] You will have maybe a little bit red face. You're stressed. After 20 seminars, you have no more stress because you control it. It's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, big argument of the force-free community or whatever they want to call themselves is if you're using an e-collar, then the dog's in a constant state of fear about getting zapped. [46:11] Because... But what we know is, as just normal people, we know when you're a baby or you're a toddler and you're near a busy road, you're a bit scared. And mum and dad's got to hold your hand and guide you and show you. But as you get older, you can stand right on the edge of the busiest road and you're not scared at all because you know exactly how to navigate the landscape. And it's no different with wearing an e-collar.

[46:37] Of course. And we think that a lot of people always go out from worst case scenario, the e-collar in hands of an idiot. Well, there is e-collars in hands of idiots. There is dogs in hands of idiots. There is children in hands of idiots. Yeah. There is cars in hands of idiots. Yes. There is the coffee mug with cookie water. Too hot coffee in the hands of idiots. I mean... [47:02] Yeah. That's why you need education. We believe in licensing, licensing, education, licensing. And that's the future. And definitions. And definitions. And of course, nobody's perfect. Hey, I did pass my driving examination. I think perfect. And yes, in the meantime, I've been catched a few times with speed. I never forget it. On the Belgian highway, you're allowed to go 120. [47:29] I think I was 180, 190 at night and it was flashing lights behind me. And I was faster, faster, faster. And then at a certain point behind me, I see the lights. But I'm not blaming my teacher that teach me how to drive the car. At that moment, I was very good. So everybody will do little or big mistakes, but at least somebody teaches you. [47:54] Teaching is the way to go. Let's compare some of the other tools. So a common tool in the force free community for teaching a dog to walk on a loose leash is a halty or a gentle leader. You know what a halty and a gentle leader. And then obviously, people. That's not force free. It's like a halter on a horse. [48:19] So you're leading the dog around by their head. So why does it work? Because of a classic conditioning. The animal did feel restriction. It's not force free. And also, I'm not against it. But it's not force free. Because the way that you're controlling the head is not as powerful for the dog to resist you as when they're wearing a harness or a collar on their neck. [48:48] So it's a little bit, it's a little bit a tool, just like a bit for a horse or my mother's example using the pinch collar that makes them walk nicely because, you know, Ben, the alternative is not nice. Michael and I, we are very open minded. We don't like too much the comparisons with other systems. If other systems do work. And when the dog listens on cue and with heart and soul, perfect. [49:17] Yes. However they did it, perfect. And that's what we tried to accept. So we are very acceptable. And if that dog works well on the halty or on that whatever, I'm happy, no problem. I can live with that. Yeah. But I'm just saying it's the same. Yeah. Just as cruel or not cruel as a pinch collar in my mind. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[49:42] Well, obviously, we do use gentle leaders here, especially when we have very small people with very big dogs, and they can't control them. It's a good way that they don't end up getting dragged down the street. But what I do know, yeah. But what I do know is it's a very aversive tool and most dogs hate them. Yes. But funnily enough, that's sold by the force free community as a training tool that should be used. [50:11] Yes. But it's very effective. Yeah. So I would like to talk a little bit about a flat collar and using a flat collar compared to a pinch collar. What do you think has more opportunity of injuring a dog? Would you think a flat collar or a pinch collar? Voila. [50:36] I think both can injure a dog. Yeah. I think it all depends on how you use tools. Yes, but... The idea of the pinch collar is... That you don't do anything. With little tubs to make your dog listening. Your champagne fingers. The larger the collar is, the less sensitive a dog is. In fact, our experience is that a large collar is not the ideal tool to make the dog obedient. [51:05] It is the ideal tool to let the dog pull. And that's why in the bite works, we use that as a pull collar. Pull. Right. And when we put it on, the dog must pull the bike and pull us to the helper. But it's the same as if I push Bart and I want to get him to move, I have to push harder with my whole hand than if I push just with my finger. I just can push a little bit and move. Well, it's like, how do you want to skim the potatoes? [51:32] With a dull knife or with a sharp knife? I like to skim the potatoes with a sharp knife. What can I say? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Makes sense. All right. Another question. In the force free community, there's a big push or a lot of advice. If you Googled, if we jumped on Google today and we went, what do I do when my puppy bites me? [51:57] You'll read a lot of stuff that says say ow and turn your back on the puppy. Say scatter and throw food on the ground. Give him a toy so he bites the toy instead of you. What do you think of these snippets of advice? And what would you advise? It's easier, Ben. When it works, we love it. And when it doesn't work, then. [52:22] Right. Because it's not the same. We wouldn't tell somebody one thing for that. Would you listen to a guy from 500 kilos that tells you, you must follow my diet to be skinned. No. So if they can show me the dog that does do it very well, the way they explain it and when it works, we are followers.

[52:51] A lot of them can talk very well, but they cannot walk. And I do think some of those things could work with some dogs. Yeah, it would work. No problem. But other times it's not working. But I mean. You know, Ben, when Michael and I trained dogs, the biggest problem we had in the beginning was to accept that the other party rewards other moments in another way. [53:22] Shaping, clicking. Yeah. It creates a type of mentality of being very intolerant. That's what I did see. And I was amazed to see that. It's amazing. So you are in a system of freedom of thinking. But not with the people. But what? Not with people. You want the dog. But then when other people click at the wrong time, you're like, you should have clicked before. [53:52] Yeah. I remember me. I was very, very difficult about that in the beginning. Yes, I remember. And then I had to change because Bart is not normal. Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Very cool. I was. I was. Here's the royal we there. All right. Here's a good one that gets thrown out a lot. Would you guys train a dog without the use of any sort of aversive tool if you could achieve the same results? [54:24] Would you or could you? Would you? Would you? Would you? If you could achieve the same results? What's an aversive tool? Without a, without a, without like a pinch collar, a knee collar, a gentle leader, a whole team. Without stimulation. We call it stimulation tools. Yeah. Without stimulation. Without any negative reinforcement. Without any negative reinforcement. Would you use, would you do it if you could? As a job for. [54:51] To bring. To bring. If you could get the same, if you could get the same results, would you, would you do it? Well, for some dogs, I think even. So that means like no slapping, playing, pushing, nothing. Nothing. If you could do it without any negative reinforcement at all and still get the same results. Let's pretend it's the perfect world. There's, there's, there's rainbows, there's unicorns, and you don't need it. [55:21] I like rainbows. And I like unicorns. Well, it would make, I guess it would make it simpler. Yeah. No problem. Yeah. Then. Yeah. I like to use things that work. And when it works, we train dogs extremely positive. Yes. Yeah. Extremely positive. Better than most positive people train the dogs. Yeah. We are aware that you can become more complete.

[55:50] I'm very good in mathematics and calculations, but I like to double check with the calculator. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also you, you have an insurance. You have to, with, with positive reinforcement, you don't have an immediate must key that you can ever apply. Yeah. So if you, if you trained a dog without using any negative reinforcements, you will never [56:17] have an immediate must key. Yeah. If you should have needed it. So that's. That means you have no insurance. Lately. An example. I have a very good control on that black bitch from Michael. Jack. I call. She flies to me. Okay. And she was running free. We have a farm. [56:42] And just beside the farm, there is a street. And three weeks ago, there was snow. And the Amish kids, they have the slides and they like the little hills to slide down. And on the slides, the sledge's, they were laying down with their little heads. A picture that the bitch never saw. And she was looking like it, like, huh, that's the kind of animal that I should like to chase. [57:07] Yeah. And I told her. And I needed three recalls before she came. And of course I immediately put her away. Say, hey, stop that shit. The consequence. We don't continue. She goes up in the inside and don't move. That's it. That was a consequence. And she learns from that. But I was amazed to see that she was not obedient. And she's very obedient. [57:33] You will always be amazed to see that the dog is not obedient. Because you can train 1 million pictures. There is still 3 million that you did not train. It's the eternal question about is the dog, the police dog or the army dog that is trained on tools. Is that dog going to listen when the dog is biting on a real civil bite? [58:04] And the problem is, a lot of dogs will not bite at all. And then you have a problem. And then when you have a dog that bites, you have another problem. That dog will not out. Because you never could train the real out on a civil bite. And of course, it's perfect out on the ball and perfect out on whatever. And that's the reality. You will. But you cannot train. [58:29] You're not sure. And therefore, you need the immediate consequence. I'm an army guy. And then I must say, Colonel, we must stop. I implement the correction, the punishment of positive reinforcement. We stop the exercise. And tomorrow, in 24 hours later, I'm back in town. You know what that general tells me? Soldier, bull on.

[58:54] Scratch your ass and make that dog out immediately. Yeah. Because we're not going to stop the military actions for 24 hours. That's the reality. Yeah. You must train dogs for reality. And the reality is, you cannot really train the reality. So you need those seat belts on your dog for the day you have an accident. And in a companion dog, like just a normal pet type situation, [59:23] unless you've actually trained the dog or you've got some tool like an e-collar, you're really not going to be able to let your dog off leash. Absolutely. Safely. You'll never be able to let your dog off leash. Well, 100%. You can never say 100%. That can always be that. But a well-trained dog, a well-trained dog that's trained on an e-collar, well-trained, you have 100%. [59:50] In the beginning of your career, you're very innocent and you accept a lot of things. I'm at the end of my career. Michael is close to the end. The more dogs I did see, the more I'm convinced. Unexpected thing that always happens unexpectedly. Yeah. Period. [60:15] So, and of course, I'm a schizophrenic because I did see all the accidents. I did see them. I did see everything that can go wrong. I did see it. And that's why plan A, plan B, plan C. And so never use the leash of people. That's an advice I give you. Never use the leash of people. Always. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's a stinky leash. It's not a good leash. Right. It'll snap, it'll break. [60:40] Always a problem. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, we think that a lot of people are very ignorant and very unexperienced, and that there is no accident that happens. And it's not their fault. And it's not their fault. And that's okay. [61:05] And hey, I'm careful when I see the pit bulls. I had four big cases with pit bulls in my career. And of course, I was number 20 to work on that pit bull, but they never told me. Yeah. So that means that if they come with the pit bull, my body is red alert. Because I had problems with those guys. [61:32] Yeah. Yeah. All right. Let me throw another question at you. I've noticed in my career that the most melancholy, depressed looking dogs I've ever seen came from a positive only upbringing and foundations in training. Have you seen that phenomenon? And if so, what do you think is going on there? [61:58] I know what's going on there. I'm going to tell you. It's a communistic reward. Yes. So that means that they do positive training. That's true. But they don't understand what they do. That means that if you want to have a calm dog, you reward with existential food for every shit the dog does.

[62:23] Same type of reward. Always the same, the same, the same, boring. And then, and for every little shit, good job. Good job. Good job. Yeah. Good job. Every second. Good job. That dog is satiated. And that has been proven because in our career, we did see that a lot. People come to us and say, hey, Michael, Bart, that guy there, that's a bastard because he's brutal to his dogs. [62:51] And then the guy is coming and you see a flashy dog, happy, you cannot believe. So, and then the person that came to you shows their dog. And then you think, oh, that dog has been beaten with 10 baseball butts. Yeah. But it's the way they reward the dog. The dog stays three feet behind them. And then they turn around and come, come, come, come, come, come, come, come. And then they lure him. [63:16] So the dog learns, if I stay behind in the sledge, they turn around and they give me and, and it's like you said, the eyes dead. Right. Well, we even see that a lot of times in sport, in sport people who reward too much their dogs. Yes, but, but, but you see that a lot there, for example, if people lure the dog with food, you see ears up, tail between the legs. [63:43] We call that active submission. They did not kick that dog. They are not brutal to the dog. The dog is just submissive and active. The ears up, but the tail very low. I cannot do one mistake or I miss my meal. So if you want that dog to be pumped up, stop luring, just click and release. And also not getting makes frustration and excitement and drive. [64:09] So, I mean, it depends what you want. You wouldn't want that for a zoo animal or for the animal of a old lady or an old gentleman or a small child. But if you need to train a dog, Ben, for people that cannot handle drive and passion, you must go for that predictable reward. You must do a lot of room service, calm down rewards. Perfect. Yes. Like Michael said, if you must train wild animals, you must keep them calm with the room service and with predictable rewards. [64:40] If you need a sport dog, you must do it. The opposite. The opposite. The unexpected. The unpredictable rewards. The unpredictable rewards. And that's why we speak here is so important. And we did see that a lot, but we could not say why. For example, me personally, I'm a very, I'm a trainer that does not reward too much. It was never my style. And if it's unpredictable.

[65:05] And I never understood why do I have jacked up dogs and why do my colleagues have dogs that are a little bit slower. And then you watch how they reward. And that's why that study. And now that study of the professor Sapolsky, that's a good one. Jackpot dopamine, because Michael told me about that study. And that was for me a big aha moment, not because I did not do it. [65:38] It was a big aha moment. Because it's study. It's science. It's showing what we see. Now it explains what we did see on the road for so many years. Jackpot dopamine is one of the best studies ever done. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one. So while we're talking about science, what role do you guys think science plays in dog training? [66:03] Well, Sapolsky did play something good. A person like Karen Pryor did change with her book in 1984. Paul's positive only became the Bible of evidence that everything else is bad. So, and yes, we need professors. [66:28] But we slowly also need professors that show us things. And you were also talking about how in science they put up with a lot of dog abuse. Of course. In the name of science. In the name of science. In the name of science. It's applauded. It's applauded. Feel back that dog's lips. So, I think that scientists have certainly their place. [66:53] But they should not be overheard because we never see them walking. I don't know one scientist that ever walked the walk of fame. I never in sports, in the dog sports, because I never saw them coming. Yeah. And for example, a lady like Karen Pryor, if she would have shown us the bite sport people years ago, how she did it. [67:18] And if it would have worked, we were following her, believe me. But they never did. Yeah. I remember in the Dutch police in Holland, they did try 20 years ago, only positive. That experiment was stopped very fast. But there's three big elements that's going to make a great dog trainer. One is experience. [67:43] One is knowledge, what kind of education they have. And one is feeling. And if you only have two out of the three, you can't be great. Yeah. So, yeah. It's not so simple. It's not nice what I say here again. Modern people read books about being nice parents and blah, blah, blah, and how to bring [68:09] a child to the world. I saw ladies in Africa bringing a baby on the street. And that person never did read a book. You see what I mean? Yeah. And it's about experience. And of course, I was not the first baby, I suppose. But I believe in a lot of practical. The best Belgian doctors, they came out of the colonies.

[68:34] Normal doctors. Because they had a lot of practice. Yeah. Practice. And of course, they were doctors that had knowledge, but they were the best. So. Let's go. Another question. Another thing that gets bandied around a lot in the force free community is if we can train bears in the zoo to put their hands through some bars to have blood taken without using any force, why can't you train a dog to recall without force? [69:09] Because it's not the same. And try to do that with the bear when the bear is fighting with another bear. Or when the bear is fighting with another bear. Tell it to come to you to do the. Or when the bear is in the wild. That works in three times. Not today, not tomorrow, never. The bear lives in a steady environment. The bear needs the food after the click. And of course, what they do is 100% right. But don't compare it. [69:34] No, it's totally. It doesn't make sense. No, it's a totally different thing. No. It's like, hey, can you call your dog back? Say, yeah. Most people have already problems calling the dog back if there is a gentle play. If they play together, they cannot recall them. Yeah. Try to recall them when they are really fighting. Try to recall them. I had a dog, Zot, the psychopath. I was Belgian champ with that dog. [70:00] And now when I walk the dog, I have my dog free, but with the E-collar around his neck. And I saw other people coming with their dogs that did not listen, of course. I said, you meet Zot, come here. Boom, down. And then the other dog came full speed to my dog. The ears up. Teet up. I stand in between and say, hey, recall your dog. My dog is nice. They say, no, he's not nice. And then I had a secret command. [70:27] When I did say, my dog could go and do his business for three seconds. There was a little fight going on. And then he came back immediately. The next time I saw those people, those people did walk around and they did leash the dog immediately. I could recall that dog always. Full control. And he was a psychopath. It was never an accident with that dog. [70:52] Never, never, never. But I was happy the day he died. Because I was entitled to guard. Yeah, you're a lifeguard. Stop. Yeah. I had an unbelievable responsibility. I had a dog like that too. But it's not. I prefer dogs we have now. They're nice to everybody. That's fun. Yeah. I had an accident with a psychopath. But that psychopath, when I recalled him, he always came.

[71:17] Yeah. And that's what I want to see with those bears in the zoo. Let them fight and call them back and now take your blood. Right. They will come in three times. Not today, not tomorrow, never. Right. That doesn't make sense to me. But it works well in a sterile environment. Yes. And for their purpose, perfect. Yes. But don't do it as an example. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That is again, that the thing, that they're dreaming. [71:44] Rainbows and unicorns. Yes. Yes. Michael, you said you had a dog like a bit of a psychopath as well. Yeah. Kimo. What dog was that? Can you tell us about that dog? Was it? Yeah. Kimo. Kimo. Malinois? Yeah. It was a son of Thor. Son of Black Thor. [72:09] Yeah. Black Thor was a son from the psychopaths. Yeah. Thor was very nice. Thor was very nice. Genetics. But he didn't also, he didn't like to be fed by people. Genetics. You know the joke about genetics? Einstein was known as not beautiful men. Very smart. And history said that it's a joke. He was married to beautiful women, but not too much brains. [72:36] And then they asked Einstein, sir, why don't you have children? And then he said, well, imagine they have my looks and the brain for mama. That's a disaster for mankind. God said the reporter, imagine they have her looks and your brain. Yeah. The chances are 50-50. Yeah. We don't go for that. Right. But to go back to Zot. Kimo. [73:01] We never did promote Zot too much. So we did ask a very high stud fee to stop the demands. I think five or six litters. The first litter came Bambi. Bambi was a dog that loved the world. Loved people. He became twice DVG champion Germany. That was a people lover. And he came out of the psychopath. Yes. [73:26] Black Thor came out of the psychopath. It was a very nice dog. Full of speed and intelligence. And then out of Black Thor came Kimo. And Kimo again was a psychopath. Now you. Like Zot. Genetics. So I mean. It's difficult isn't it genetics. Well that's why you must select. That's why you must. Yeah. Selection is what you must do in breathing. Yeah. And people don't select anymore. [73:51] And it's not because A is good and B is good that it will go make a good C. It can be minus one. And a lot of people I think like they want to get a psychopath. I think some people think that's what they want. You want a psychopath until you get one. Oh. And you don't want it anymore. A dog that always stays in my mind is P-O-P-O.

[74:16] Yeah. Okay. Oh. Oh. Oh. Oh. But that's. Yeah. That's unique. That's unique. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He was. He was a weapon. He still is a weapon. He's still working with the police doing a good job. [74:41] It's a dog I never forget. Right. Try to. Try to control him with cookies. Try to control him with cookies. Right. Of course he like cookies. But you see a lot of people have never seen a dog like Zot or like Kimo or like Pope. A lot of people. And a lot of people never in their life ever will. And then they say, but those dogs should not be there. Well, in the good hands, they should be there. Right. [75:06] And they have a purpose. We understand that. Yeah. Yeah. And that's why there must be licensing and then everybody must be aware of what they have in their head. But most. Yeah. He's got a lot of bad people off the streets and he's helped a lot of police officers to stay safer doing the job. So. It's a fantastic dog. Right. Fantastic dog. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's a ripper. [75:31] Yeah. Yeah. He's a ripper. Yeah. He's a ripper. He's an Australian term. Means he's very good. How is Jack going anyway? Are we going to see Jack on the trial field, you reckon? Can I tell you something? Hmm. I don't have the passion from the old days anymore. To go high in competition, need passion. But that dog is so good. [75:57] And it's so easy because you guys now and then see a video. You know what? I train from video to video. Yeah. It's the only time he trains her. I have no time. When I video it. Yeah. Every three weeks. And today I did train her twice because I had fun on it. Yeah. And yesterday also I did train her twice. But little things. But normally not at all. But I feel so guilty that I train a dog when other people work. [76:24] It is not our job anymore. We have a company in e-colors. We have here other companies going on. I feel guilty when during the working time the boss is playing with his dog. Because that's how people do it. Right. I don't want to be guilty. And that dog deserves one training a day. One training a day. And you can go so high with that dog.

[76:50] And then that dog is built for IGP. Tick, tick, tick, tick. The nice move fast. And then on the big competition, she can lay in the hotel. She doesn't move. And then we call the police and we say, hey, there is cruelty on the parking. There is a lot of dogs barking. And they are in trailers. And that's unfair. And then all the colleagues must go out of the bed and we have a nice sleep because our dog is sleeping well. And the next day, hey guys, how are you doing? [77:16] Oh, we had a bad night because it was a stupid mother calling the police for animal cruelty. I say, huh? What a bitch. She's a bitch. Yeah. She's a fantastic dog. Very easy. Yeah. The videos look great. She looks like a real fun dog to train. Yeah. And then you say, uh-uh, and that's enough, you know? Uh-uh. Uh-uh. She looks... Well, and then she's the typically body fake, right? [77:45] Yeah. Somebody said that she pretends to be sensitive. Yeah, she pretends to be sensitive. She pretends to be sensitive. Of course. Of course. Of course. And she came away with it and then everybody pets her and she... Yeah. It's like in the morning when she's laying at the foot of the bed. She's not allowed to come beside at the foot. And then... Oh, my God. [78:10] You ogre. If you pass her, she puts her head above like that. Yeah, like that. Like that. Because we have... We watered that a few times with the room service. It's so funny. Every time. It's hilarious. Because she puts it right behind her ears and she... We must film it. Yeah. And she... [78:35] So she does it to get pet now. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, if that dog is so intelligent, he's so nice to people, he's so... And, of course, she had the weak moments because she had the weak moments as a young dog, eh? dog. But that should be a nice marriage with that dog. Tommy. Tommy's in that category of Zot, but not a psychopath. He's a nice dog. [79:01] Very human friendly. He's in the category of Pope. You don't have dogs like that very often. Powerful, you cannot believe. Powerful. How's Zot going, Michael? He's fantastic. He's environmentally so strong. I mean, amazing with [79:28] people and easy to train. He's a little bit over motivated for food. He has a super high drive for rewards and then he can't think. That's his. I mean, Jack, I trained her basically with not liking food.

[79:53] So, so it's different. That's the other side of the spectrum. How old is Zot now? He's eight months. Eight months. Okay. Yeah. But he has extreme drives. Yeah. Extreme. Yeah. You know, lately, I had somebody asking me, how is he in defense? I said, huh? We don't let him bite. We need a nice dog and we don't like defense. [80:20] Defense is the cause that the dog sport will stop one day. I understand that defense is done for special purpose, but the sport people should not do that. Yeah. Kill the game and that dog has everything, but we want to keep him nice. If you play two times the boogie woogie man, he will, he will be awake. Well, he's already just need to. He's awake. Yeah. Somebody [80:46] on the property, even if he sees Bart and Bart's far away and he thinks he's a stranger, he's already has a very good job. And he comes full speed and the last moment you see, it's me and them. Yeah. But people must understand genetics are there. Yeah. And sometimes totally must give time the time and it's a dog that will be minimum 40 kilo from dog [81:13] and not hyper. People see that nerve dog at six weeks old. There is a danger tendency today. They want to see tail up, ears up when the pup is five, six weeks old. It's a very nervy dog. And we don't need that. But that's a tendency today. And I remember that when we did pick dogs [81:38] 30 years ago, we never picked the dog that came to people. That was a no-go. We did not want that social dog. That was the first. And then when we did throw prey, we did not want them to go behind prey. That was a second no-go. Now, we are 30 years later and we changed everything with 180 degrees. Now people will pick the dog [82:04] that comes to people. And now people will only pick the dog that runs behind the little toy or whatever it is. And now there is genocide on dogs that don't have those talents. I tell you that because that's busy. But someday when the champ is, they don't want to know what the road is to there. And it starts to be a big [82:29] problem. It's five past twelve. And it's different. There's a big difference between a dog with drive that can be very calm, which is good. and then when he must do the job, then he puts it in. That's the good dog. But that nervous all day long. Going back to that positive reinforcement, I mean, when we were

[82:54] training Ragnar, I mean, people who are the positive only trainers, they couldn't train that dog. It's impossible. Impossible. Yeah. He needed, what he did like was the fight with the owner. You need a little bit push and a little bit sloppy. And he likes that. That's what he liked. And all the [83:20] rest he did do, but it was not without his soul. Not at all. Yeah. And I remember every time I did train Ragnar, I was bleeding somewhere. Not because he was vicious, but he was vicious. He loved that. That's his favorite thing. But that's the thing is that a lot of these people, they only know, they only see a little sliver of the kind of dogs. So, [83:46] the big change. Yeah, you sold Ragnar, right? Did you sell Ragnar? Ragnar is in military. He's in a special place. Military is jumping out of places, and when the plane goes down, everybody dies, but Ragnar, he survives. Yeah, I remember when Ragnar came from Europe, I was a little bit worried about him, and I drove to [84:11] Georgia to pick him up, and Bart said, Michael, don't worry about Ragnar. He said, if that plane goes down, everyone will die, except for him. He can't kill him. Survivor. Yeah. But to tell you something, Ben, yes, there was a financial deal, but the people that did take him had to come two weeks, [84:36] eight hours a day, and Michael did train them how to train that dog. So, there's only one way to pass dogs, it's with the language they're speaking, because the problem today is they buy a dog, but they don't have the manual, and they must find the manual in the next five years, and then he starts limping and so on. And a lot of people don't have a system, the one person is training him in a special [85:01] way, the way Roger trains him, and then it's hard to pass it off. The reason why it's 100% success in that deal is because, first of all, he was trained well, and secondly, he was overhanded well. You did ask the question earlier today about would you train only in positive? Well, for a client, no, because what is very important is [85:27] that when we tap the button, that the dog knows sit down, stand still, that the tap has a meaning, and then the dog goes back to the people that have problems with that dog. If that dog does not feel the tap, the dog will still have the problems, but that magic tap is there, and the dog says, whoa, Domina is back. How is Domina here? Well, that's a little bit more of course. You must return the dog with

[85:52] what we call the tactile languages. At least in the beginning, the first couple days. And then you tell people, you speak and you tap, you speak and you tap, and you speak and you tap. And it says, and listen. And then three days later, you do intermittent tap. And then after two weeks, you can say, and when it doesn't dust, you give it a light correction. Perfect. So that's for that reason that we should never, never, we would never overhand [86:18] the dog that is only positive trained. No. Well, we have a liability pending on our face nonstop. Whereas when we train the dog, and when we train the dog, more important is train the owner. Because training the dog, overhanding that animal to the owner, that doesn't make sense. Yeah. Yeah. People and train the people. Yeah, that's good that that that agency were smart [86:44] enough to do that and send those people over for the training. not a lot of government agencies would do that. Well, and they send again a whole team to the new school in Springfield, which means that there was a success there. Yeah, good. Very good. Very, very good. Well, guys, I can't thank you enough for your time today. Is there anything else you just want to discuss or [87:10] put out there before we say goodbye? Maybe, maybe. So, I come out of a generation I'm 60 plus. We could do dog training without being supervised by cameras and so on and so on. The new generation, you guys live in a very special [87:36] world and you must be a weapon for that special world. So, that means that you must be very good in the knowledge how to train a dog and then you must be able to implement it. And there is always apostles of morality looking when you do a mistake. The only way to learn is by mistakes. You cannot not do mistakes. I was quite successful [88:01] as a dog trainer but I did do a lot of mistakes and I did learn from it. My big chance was I had a big strong dog and when I did do a mistake, the fucker did bite me. then you become very careful. So, I mean, you must learn by mistakes and you must learn by the consequence. You must feel the consequences. So, you guys, [88:26] Michael and I are preparing so much things in the pipelines. In two years from now, everything will be ready and then it's up to you. So, the school, we slowly give it over. We are with other ideas. The e-color world, the pinch color, the choke color. Well, you see, you speak about unicorns and rainbow people. I don't go so far.

[88:52] We live in a special mentality. You must be very well trained to explain people what you do. You must be very careful in how you do and don't be ignorant. There is a very strong lobby trying to prohibit dogs with animation. Don't post too much hardcore [89:18] videos on the internet with dogs barking in the face and dogs showing aggression on people. And doing defense. And defense stuff. That's not what the general public must see. You can do that for specific reasons. If you are police work, no problem. But this should not go online and it should not become too much part of a trendy. [89:43] What we do see, for example, in America they have PSA. PSA is that street ring. And biting and a lot of aggression. Well, if you analyze PSA, PSA is a casting game. It's not a biting game. It's you go left, you go right, and you go where I tell you to go. So you must listen. Listen. It's a very complicated [90:08] game. But what do we see? They work on biting and defense and opposition and they cannot win because the dog is not listening. You must train the dog to listen, to listen, to listen and with distractions. High distractions. High distractions. And the casting is very important. So it is like I compare it. There is a competition and we must swim 100 [90:33] meters. And after 100 meters, we come on an island and then you must do 50 push ups. That's the competition. Nobody trains on swimming and all the guys are training in push ups, push ups, push ups. And they are in steroids and anabolics and they do 1000 push ups. And then the competition starts and there's a little lady thin like my finger and she can swim. [90:59] And she does the push ups and she wins. and the guys that they train on defense and push up and push up and push up, they cannot sweep. The dog does not listen. How do you want to win a competition? PSA is brutal difficult. It's very difficult. And most people don't analyze that game. It's about listening. I did win a [91:24] lot of competitions in my life and it was always on listening. And what people must understand in bite work is they never reproduce with dogs that out. They only reproduce with dogs that don't out. Genetically you have an out problem. Be aware of that. Turn that door to listen. Well, do you want a dog from a natural outer?

[91:49] I don't want a natural outer. I don't want a I don't want a I come out of the old school and in the old school we had a biter. And we just had to train the out. Now the modern school is you must learn the dog how to bite. It becomes very complicated. So now I can do that. But in the old days I was smarter. I did not do that. And of course due [92:15] to that we were also dog washers. Dog out, out, out. And the dogs that went out, they had a new life and a good life in the police or somewhere else. So those days are over. So it's very complicated games. Yeah, it's a complex environment. And what I would tell people is learn about the rule of [92:40] animal welfare. What does animal welfare says? Learn it. It's another thing that frustrates Michael and me. We have a virtual Dogify. Dogify is an application that everybody can get for free where you can play with all the possibilities of your transmitter and all the possibilities of your color receiver. And we can see how many people go [93:05] on Dogify. Do you know how to use it, Ben? Sorry? Do you know how to use it, Dogify? Yeah, I've got Dogify. Good to go. Perfect. But that's the future. But what people don't realize is if you use tools, you must be able to use those tools on reflex response. Yeah. If you have an e-color and you don't know that e-color, inside, [93:30] outside, you should not be allowed to use it. Because most people, when they train dogs, they have stress and they cannot work on reflex response. The same with the choker. You see that they are clumsy with the leash, they are clumsy with the there is something that they cannot do. And if you look to very successful dog trainers, they have a very good body control. [93:56] They know very well what to do, how to do. The left hand does something, the right hand does something, they read something, they react on something. And that's what cognitive people don't have. Cognitive people have everything there, but when they do it, they're always five, six seconds too late. Their body doesn't keep up with their brains. Yeah. Response. And you to be good in whatever you do, [94:21] to be good, you must be in reflex response. The talent code. And people always ask us, when are we ready to go in competition? It's easy. when you train and we tell you three words and you can speak back those words after training, you're ready. That means you, that means that you can, your mind is clear, you're not in stress and you're just doing. Try that,

[94:47] Ben, try that. You say two, computer, rope. they cannot repeat it. Because they're so focused on the training that they cannot repeat it. And it's only three words. And then a lot of people say there's a, there's a competition coming up in two months. I'm going to train for it. next week, there is a [95:12] marathon. I start training now. It doesn't make sense. It doesn't work. You are, when you're ready, then you go. Yeah, I tried that. Almost pooed myself. And of course, having a deadline pushes you, but the deadline sometimes pushes the people. Too far and too wrong. Yes. Pushes you wrong to do things that you [95:37] normally do. Anyway, we cannot stop Ben. Yeah, we're going to stop Ben. Great chat, guys. Hang on to the line with you and I'll stop the line. I'll just say thanks and a quick goodbye. Okay. All right. Thanks very much for your time, guys. Bye. FORCE FREE - KAIZEN K9 FORCE FREE - intervieuw Ben Geurts, KAIZEN K9, with Michael & Bart Bellon