E360: 페트라 포드(Petra Ford) - "교감을 위한 훈련"

The dog was like, oh, I want to look at that. Oh, but I'm not supposed to look at that. I better look at mom instead. But their attention is still split. And they're not in a good place emotionally, right? Versus when my dog is fully engaged, my dog's not even doesn't even know what's happening in the environment because my dog is completely into what we're doing. And they're emotionally in a good place because it's their choice. They want to do this. And they're driving the session. Can you talk a bit about where you start to work on that? Like, what does it look like when you're first working with a new puppy or a new dog? Right. So when I'm working with a new puppy, I always say I'm putting out an enormous amount of work and effort because the puppy's just a blank slate, right? I bet I need to make it fun and interesting and give them a reason to want to do this. And then my ultimate goal is when I have a fully trained dog, for example, like with Zaina, I do very little and she gives me a lot. So when I have a little puppy, I have to set up the environment so that my puppy can work in that environment so the puppy can be successful. So I'm not going to train it like out, you know, at Lowe's. I'm going to train it at home. I have to be very clear with my information. I have to be very quick with everything. And I do use a lot of motion because motion is appealing to dogs. Sitting still is very boring and they're going to, you know, be like, I'm out. So I do a lot of motion. I plan ahead of time what I'm going to do. I have all my props, anything I'm going to use there so that I can move really quickly from one task to the other, to the other, to the other, so that my dog is engaged, so that my dog is into the process, basically engaged the entire time with me doing most of the work. And so there's very little to no dead time. So it goes from cue to helping the dog to reinforcement. Right. There's no end after I reinforce. It goes right back into the next thing that we do. So basically what a trainer told me many, many years ago when I said, how do you get really good? Well, we called it attention at the time, but engagement. But the concept is the same. She said, never let the dog look away. And that's basically what I do with little puppies. Like, I'm so fast and so everything's so planned out that the puppy just never does, really just doesn't look away. Now, I want to just have you clarify something in there. You said something about, you know, you're not training at Lowe's. You're not training out and about. I assume you're still doing socialization related things.

Yes, but not when I'm, well, I do. I do some training at stores using props and with, you know, games. But I'm not specifically doing what I would call engagement work. But yes, my dogs go everywhere. They're always out and about. They're always, especially when they, I mean, I go to competitions. I stay in hotels. The puppies come in hotels. They go in the elevator. They go to, when I get my oil change, they go to the car dealer. They go to the hairstylist. They just go everywhere. So, but to me, that's different. I don't necessarily, I am not in those situations working specifically on engagement. Gotcha. Right? Because for me, by definition, when I start engagement work, I'm 100% focused on my dog the entire time we're working, even if that's just a couple minutes. And I want my dog to be 100% focused on me. So I don't necessarily ask them to do that, like, you know, at the car dealership or wherever. I just want them to be out and about. So is engagement the same? Is it different than asking for, like, a start button or a ready-to-work cue or something like that? So I teach engagement in a series of steps. So at the beginning, I ask the dog. So a dog can't go from not working, like laying down, like, I'm not going to say their names because they'll jump up. Some of my dogs are just lying there. Right? Or if they're in their crate, my dogs sleep in their crate. I can't say to the dog that's laying down now, get up and instantly give me 100% engagement. A human being can't do that. It's impossible. There's a transition period where the dog has to get their arousal to an optimal state. And they have to just get their brain shifted from I'm watching this great movie on Netflix to I have to do, you know, I have to write a blog or something. You know, you can't just shift in the blink of an eye. So I give my dogs some time. I let my dogs know we're working. I ask them initially. I ask them for some tricks, but I don't really consider them fully engaged until they're responding to my cues by meeting all criteria. So, for instance, if I say spin, my dog responds immediately. It spins meeting my criteria, which means they spin quickly and all the way around with energy. And if my dog can do several tricks like that, then more than likely they're ready to work. Later, I switch to giving them an offering cue. And if the dog is not fully engaged, they cannot offer. And so if they're not responding to my cue, they just need more time. Ultimately, where my dogs are now, I give no cue.

They know we're working based on maybe I have treats or, you know, I present like we get their training bag and they're like, oh, we're working. I say nothing. So now I just wait until they're ready. Maybe they will start offering behaviors, whatever behaviors they want. I don't care. It's their choice. And when they're offering them and like my dogs will start doing some tricks and then they'll throw themselves into heel position and then they'll start pushing me to heel. So then at that point, they're ready. So it's a combination of giving the dog the time they need. So what people do a lot is they say, OK, we're going to start working. And they're like, do a few tricks. And they're like, all right, we're healing now. And the dog's like, oh, I was in the middle of the movie. I'm not even on the same page as you. Hold on. And then the dog makes mistakes. And then the whole thing just goes to pop. So you have to really learn to be good at reading your dogs, right? Like I watch my dogs and each one is different. And they each go through this different kind of procedure. Like they'll bow and then they'll stretch. And then one dog will start sneezing a lot. So each dog has a kind of different procedure. So I just have to so I think learning to read your dog and recognizing when they are and aren't ready and fully ready to be fully engaged is a really important skill. So that's kind of how I do it. Did I even answer the question? I think so. I think you did. I feel like I lost track so much. It's all good. So how do you kind of get that to the point where it's robust enough that it can hold up, you know, even under stress or in a competition ring? Well, first of all, it's being patient, right? I think the biggest one of the biggest holes with trainers is they don't really truly and fully. Come like understand how hard it is for the dog to do what we're asking them to do. Right. So if you're not a human and you're a dog, you're living in a vacuum. You don't have this concept of like, I want to be good at this sport and I want to win these ribbons and I want to get these titles. They're just living their animal lives. And then one day we're like, hey, do this and you'll get a cookie or do this and you'll get a toy. And they're like, OK. But in that moment, they're still only thinking about that step. Humans are like, OK, dog, pay attention. Oh, good. You're paying attention at home. Now we're going to go to Lowe's in the middle of the store on a Sunday. And how come you can't do it here? What's wrong with you? You're a naughty dog or this dog just blows me off or this dog just shuts down.

That's a giant leap. Right. So taking an animal that innately in order to feel safe and function in the planet, when it sees motion, it looks at it. When it hears sound, it turns and orients towards it. When it smells something, it sniffs until it whatever happens in the dog's brain. The dog goes, OK, I can move away from that. And we're saying ignore all of that. And just do exactly what I say in competition obedience for nine to 11 continuous minutes. That's a long time. So I understand how hard that is and how long that takes. So I am super patient. I will wait until my dog's engagement's really good at home. Then when I go to a training building, I understand it is not going to be the same as at home. So I have to simplify, back up shorter sessions and build up to that. Then when I go to like Lowe's, I am not going to go in the store or in the garden center. I'm going to be in the parking lot. And if that's too hard, I'm going to go all the way to the far end of the parking lot. And if I get I have driven to places and had my, you know, not fully trained dogs work for like literally a few minutes. And they gave me a few minutes where they're like trying really hard. And I'm like, that's good. I'm out. So I literally drove 15, 20 minutes out, 15, 20 minutes back, trained two or three minutes. So but this way, I'm not pressuring them. I'm just building it up slowly over time, slowly over time, slowly over time. And then when they understand the concept, we start doing like proofing where we add distractions. And so it's a long process. It takes years. I don't I think Zesty has good engagement. He's just turned he turned just turned four. It's not where I want it to be, where it needs to be. So you're talking four years, five years, not six weeks, like a six week class or a couple years. And I think so. I think that that's why a lot of people struggle. There are holds in their training because a lot of times I think they try to progress through the engagement steps way too quickly. And the dog kind of can't keep up with that whole process. So on that note, what do you what do you do or how do you kind of handle training mistakes without negatively impacting your dog's willingness to engage? What I when I think of training, it's like, OK, like if I'm going to train my girl today, I don't want to say her name. She'll jump up. And let's say I want to work on articles, signals, moving stands. I am not going to train her unless she is fully engaged. So she's not fully engaged with me for whatever reason. Then we are not going to, quote unquote, train. Then I need to change something.

Either I'm someplace where it's to either she's not warmed up enough. The environment is too challenging. I confused her somehow. Right. There's something that I need to do. Because if my dogs are not fully engaged, then I'm doing something wrong. Like at her stage, if it's a younger dog and I take it somewhere like and I'm like, OK, can you work here? And they're like, nope, then I'm not even going to do something like a recall or. Right. I'm just going to say you can't even focus here. This is too hard. This is too hard. So for sure, I'm not even going to ask you to do behaviors. I need to go somewhere where it's easier. There are times in their training when they understand engagement and they make a mistake. So let's say I'm healing and the dog hears something and it looks away. Right. I just stop. I tell the dog how to be right. Right. So again, that's a big thing. People do this all the time. They say to the dog, that's not correct. Or they just stop. Right. And break the chain. OK, that's great. But how does the dog know what they did wrong? We're assuming they know. But they're not clear on it. So 100% of the time I tell the dog how to be right. So let's say my dog looks away. That's a focal point error. I stop. I say to my dog, up here, buddy, up here. So I point to my face and I say up here. They know what that means. They're fluent with that. They look at me. I go, that's right. That's what I want. Now I go back. I release them. And I do that piece again. And they'll be correct. If they're wrong again, then there's either they don't understand my communication or the environment is too challenging. I need to change something. Right. It's not the dog's fault. It's my fault. I need to do something different. So like Zesty was making, was having trouble. For example, like he would look away and then I would stop and say, I would just say up here. And over a few weeks, it wasn't getting better. So I'm like, that's so weird. Like, why does he not understand this? So it was very interesting with him because I'd gotten completely away from saying no. Even though, you know, when I went in training, if I say no, it's just like, no, no, it's just information. Don't do that. Do something else. But Zayna doesn't like it. So I stopped doing it. He hated it. He, when I, so if I say to him, I stop and I say, no, no, up here. He goes, okay, got it. I'm not supposed to do that. I'm supposed to do this. When I changed it, he was like, as soon as I said, no, no, he's like, oh, good. Okay. And then I would say, do this. So it's, you know, the reason I give that example is not because of the fact that I'm using no, no.

It's that I had to say, this is, he's not getting it. I changed, you know, I know the environment's not too hard. I something. So therefore there is a hole in my communication. He does not understand what I'm saying. So I don't typically blame the dog. I look to myself and say, okay, I have to figure out why my dog doesn't understand what I want. So what if you think your dog is engaged or opted in and they're not, they leave or they opt out in the middle of a session? How do you handle that? Um, so same. I'm just like, okay. I need, so when, um, zest was young, if he was confused, he would just like walk away. So to me, that's just information, right? I'm like, okay, well, that's weird. He, so clearly he doesn't understand what I want. Cause if he did, he wouldn't leave because good information. Like if, um, good communication is inherently reinforcing. So if we're having a good conversation or if I'm explaining something to you and it's making sense and you're interested in it, then you're like, oh, I'm, I'm enjoying this conversation. But if I'm confusing or boring, you're going to be like daydreaming or you're going to check your phone. Right. So basically he's like moving away. Cause he's like, I don't know what you want. So that's my problem. Right. I have to figure out, okay, why does he not understand what I want? I have to change something. Right. Cause doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is a definition of insanity. Right. So change something. You, you know, you made it too hard. You were too confusing. You're inadvertently putting pressure on the dog. Um, your, your session isn't flowing. There could be a million reasons. You just have to look to what you are doing. So you've got a class, uh, this term called energized engagement. Do you want to just share a little more on what you're going to cover in the class and, uh, who might want to join you? Yeah. Yeah. So, and so I think it's really good for all levels because, um, the, the biggest hole. Look, people know how to teach their dogs, the exercises they go in the ring. What happens? They lose their dog's attention. Right. That's across the board, the biggest problem. Well, if that happens, there's a hole in your training. Somewhere along the way, you weren't, you're, you weren't clear with your dog. Your dog's confused. So most people have holes in their engagement training. So in this course, I'm going to start with what seems like pretty simple, but it was kind of funny because, um, I did a live seminar somewhere and I showed somebody that was kind of like newer. And there were a lot of more advanced people.

And then all of a sudden, some of the advanced people were like, oh yeah, I, my dog can't even do that. Right. So I'm going to go through the steps of how I start teaching engagement, some simple engagement games that I teach my puppies. Right. Like right out of the gate and then, um, progress through those steps. Um, it's, I'm not, I doubt it's possible. Like a lot of my classes get driven by my students. If I ended up, ended up having a lot of advanced students, then I, then by week three, four, I start throwing in some more advanced stuff into the lectures. Um, but the primary goal is to kind of start at the beginning and work through the steps of, you know, how to get the dog to do that transition. I described from being like at rest, thinking doggy thoughts to being engaged, um, how to teach the dog to go from asking for engagement to getting the dog to offer engagement. Um, engagement. I'm going to talk about engagement, like at a distance, right? Like when we leave the dog, not just when the dog is next to us or right in front of us. Um, using props and tricks to help with engagement. And there's always too much information in my classes. There's always too much stuff. I try to, so yeah, there'll be information. So if you have a puppy or a new dog or, you know, like I said, if you have an advanced dog, more than likely there are some holes and you should be able to fill those holes. Awesome. Um, any final thoughts or maybe key points you want to kind of leave listeners with on the topic? I think the key point is that, well, I think the, there are several things that I think are very important. One is it's really important for us to truly understand what we're asking our dogs to do and how hard that is. And I think if we really and truly can feel that and understand that, then we're much better trainers because we're more patient and we're more empathetic. And when things aren't going well, instead of blaming the dog or throwing up our hands, oh, my dog doesn't love me. He's opting out my dog or my dog's not motivated or my dog gets flat. You're, you move into problem solving mode, right? It's all about be, just be objective, solve the problem. Um, and engagement is a foundation of everything. If you don't have engagement, don't, I don't even bother training, right? Like there's just no sense because it's like God help teachers, right? It's like trying to teach students that are looking at, looking out the window or have the phone in their lap and they're paying attention to that. The information is not going to get in there.

Um, and then when you do have a dog that's so engaged and that's offering engagement to me personally, that there is nothing. Just absolutely, like it takes your relationship to a whole nother level and there's just nothing as enjoyable and satisfying and rewarding as having a dog that's like, I'm all in, let's go. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a great point to kind of leave things on, I think. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Petra. Thank you for having me and thank you for doing the podcast. I know everybody enjoys it and learns a lot from the episodes. Thank you. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music. Music.