NePoPoNePoPo® (Bart & Michael Bellon) · 글
bitework의 오남용 문제와 조기 훈련의 위험성bitework(물기 훈련)에서 animosity(적대감)나 cheeky cheeky Chaka(지나친 흥분과 장난스러운 흥분 유도) 같은 자극적인 요소를 좋아함 [01:58]ABC(기초 훈련/복종 훈련)를 건너뛰고 바로 bitework를 하려 함 [01:58]bitework를 위한 통제(control) 준비를 하지 않으려 함 [01:58]diapers(기저귀)를 차야 할 시기임에도 불구하고 bitework를 시키는 경우가 있음 [02:23]bitework를 시키는 것은 마치 cocaine(코카인)을 주는 것과 같음 [02:23]dopamine(도파민)이 계속해서 쌓이기 때문에, 나중에 자라서는 평범한 일상적인 자극에 만족하지 못하게 됨 [02:56]bitework를 시키는 사람들도 있음 [02:56]flashinessnerves(신경/기질)를 가지고 있지 않다"며 탓함 [03:25]puppy(강아지)는 puppy처럼 훈련해야 함 [03:52]young dog(어린 개)는 young dog처럼 훈련해야 함 [03:52]adult dog(성견)은 adult dog처럼 훈련해야 함 [03:52]worn out(지치고 망가짐) 되는 일을 방지할 수 있음 [03:52]unforced fetch 교육 관련 알림unforced fetch(강제성이 없는 가져오기)에 관한 2~4개의 짧은 영상을 촬영함 [03:52]hold(물고 버티기)를 가르쳐야 하며, give(물건을 건네주기/내어주기)를 수행하도록 해야 함 [04:21]table(훈련대) 위에서 bite(물기)를 할 때, out(물고 있는 것을 놓기/명령어)을 수행하도록 가르쳐야 함 [04:21]out을 수행하지 않을 경우, 사전에 강아지가 이해할 수 있도록 준비시킨 언어(훈련 방식)를 사용하여 correction(교정)을 줄 수 있음 [04:21]helper(헬퍼/도우미)가 현장에 있더라도 강아지가 pipe(파이프/물건)를 계속 물고 있도록 해야 함 [04:21]helper가 주변에 있으면 흥미를 잃는 경우가 많은데, 이때도 강아지는 hold를 유지해야 함 [04:47]helper가 주변에 있으면 ball(공)조차 물고 있지 않으려 함 [04:47]helper에게 가기 전에 먼저 '할 일'을 부여해야 함 [04:47]body language(바디 랭귀지)를 이해하는 사람이라면 딱 봐도 알 수 있는, 강아지가 즐겁지 않은 영상들이 공유됨 [06:18]consequences(결과/책임), ABCs(기초), alphabet(알파벳/기본 언어), age appropriateness(연령에 맞는 적절성) [06:47]finished video(완성된 훈련 영상) 형태로 공개됨 [07:50]hidden cameras(몰래카메라)로 촬영된 것들임 [07:50]NePoPo®의 Bart와 Michael은 사람들에게 생각할 거리를 던져주고 토론하게 만드는 'hot items(주요 이슈)'를 다루지만, 하룻밤 사이에 결론을 내리지는 않음 [08:49]Martin System®이다"라고 주장하며 e-collar를 언급함 [09:23]bitework(물기 작업)과 관련 스포츠를 중단시키는 것임 [10:57]bitework를 없애려는 이유:bitework 스포츠 자체를 없애려 함 [11:22]bitework 규정 변화의 역사적 단계bitework를 단계적으로 제거하기 위해 도입된 첫 번째 조치: 'no more stick(막대기 사용 금지)' [11:53]bitework:KNPV 스포츠만이 유일하게 'rotten stick(썩은 나무 막대기)'을 사용하여 여전히 예전 방식을 고수함 [11:53]KNPV에서도 현재는 강하게 때리는 대신 'touch the brakes(살짝 건드리는 수준)'로 완화됨 [12:20]IGP에서 사용하던 강력한 막대기는 점차 'soft stick(부드러운 막대기)'으로 변함 [12:20]French Ring sport)의 변화와 과거의 방식fake) 경우가 있었음 [12:47]French Ring sport에서는 대나무 막대기(baton/stick)를 사용했고, 헬퍼(helper)들은 매우 얇은 보호복(light suited/light dresses)을 착용했음 [12:47]sticks)를 사용해 상당히 거칠게 행동했음 [12:47]French Ring sport에서는 물기(bite) 전에 개를 건드리는 행위가 아예 금지됨 [13:16]Belgian Ring sport)와 훈련 철학의 차이Belgian Ring sport에서는 막대기를 이용한 저항(opposition)을 거의 하지 않음 [13:16]faking)를 많이 사용하는 일종의 서커스(circus)와 같은 성격이 강함 [13:50]mentality)의 차이에서 기인함 [13:50]animal welfare)에 대한 비판big federations)들이 동물 복지를 이유로 굴복하기 시작함 [13:50]participation trophy)을 주는 분위기임 [14:16]whole mentality)가 점진적으로 확산됨 [14:45]A-frame) [14:45]motivation techniques)을 사용해야 함 [15:15]bitework)의 위기와 정치적 배경pinch collar, stick, choke collar, e-collar, whip(채찍) 등은 모두 바이워크(bitework)를 완전히 중단시키기 위한 작은 단계들임 [15:40]politics 101)에 의한 잔혹한 조작임 [15:40]bitework)를 통제하기 어렵다는 이유로 점차 이를 폐지하려 할 것임 [16:11]animal welfare law)을 더 정확히 숙지하고 있어야 함 [16:11]helper가 suit(방호복)를 입고 있는 경우: 개에게 고통을 가하는 것이 허용되지 않음. [17:41]unforced force fetch (강제성 없는 가져오기 훈련)의 중요성: 테이블 위에서 자극(stimulus)을 촉각적 언어(tactile language)로 학습시킴. [17:41]bitework 진행 과정:assimilation (동화/학습)을 통해 물라는 자극과 놓으라는 자극을 구분하게 됨. [17:41]self-rewarding (자기 보상적) 행동으로서의 bitework:self-rewarding이 됨. [18:10]out(놓아) 명령을 수행하게 하기 위해 가벼운 교정(correction)을 제공함. [18:10]stress의 정의를 오해하고 있음. [18:42]out을 가르치는 방식의 한계:heeling, sit down, stand still, hold, sniff 등 모든 행동이 self-rewarding이 되어야 함. [19:11]out 명령을 위해 물기 보상을 요구하는 방식은 지속 가능하지 않음. [19:43]out 하는 것 자체도 좋아해야 함. [19:43]Ragnar의 사례: 테이블 위에서 메탈 바를 물고 있다가, 바를 놓고(out), helper를 물고, 다시 놓고, 헬퍼를 쳐다보는 일련의 과정을 행복하게 수행함. [20:09]conflict (갈등) 없이 열정(passion)을 가지고 수행하는 것이 핵심임. [20:09]crazy junkie 같은 개가 아니라, 통제(control)와 열정(heart and soul)을 모두 갖춘 개를 만드는 것임. [20:09]bitework(물기 훈련)를 시작하는 것은 문제가 있음 [20:34]chunking(단위별 훈련)을 하지 않고 개별 단계를 익히지도 않은 채 바로 전체 동작을 수행하려 함 [21:28]dog sport 내 bitework(물기 훈련)에 큰 문제를 야기할 것임 [21:28]coronavirus처럼 미국으로 건너갈 것이며, 마리화나 사용이 많고 자유로운 사고를 하며 태양열 에너지 등을 추구하는 진보적(liberals) 성향이 강한 주에서 먼저 시작될 것임 [21:58]dog sport를 지속할 수 있느냐에 대한 문제임 [22:26]chunking(단위별 훈련)을 하지 않아 문제가 발생한 경우가 많음 [22:57]correction(교정)에 대해 개를 준비시키지 않음 [22:57]negative reinforcement(부적 강화)positive reinforcement(정적 강화)NePoPo®에서는 결코 공격성 훈련(aggression work)을 하지 않으며, 이를 가르치지도 않음 [28:45]pet industry) 내 일부 무능한 훈련사들이 창의적인 해결책을 찾지 못하고 곧바로 pressure(압박)를 가하거나 개를 구타하는 등 극단적인 방식을 사용하는 문제 발생 [33:03]out(물고 있는 것을 놓게 하기) 시킬 수 있다는 주장 비판) [34:56]Golden Retriever는 훌륭하지만 bitework(물기 작업)를 위해 개량된 견종이 아님을 명시하며, 훈련 환경과 견종의 특성에 따른 차이를 이해해야 함) [34:56]vicious dog는 천 마리 중 한 마리 정도로 드문 사례임) [35:27]vicious(사나운)한 개는 1,000마리 중 1마리 정도임 — (매우 드문 경우임을 강조) [35:57]biting(무는) 도중 머리를 가볍게 때리는 장면이 나옴 — (개가 더 세게 물도록 유도하기 위한 행동) [36:28]doberman(도베르만) 훈련 중 줄에 묶인 개에게 가슴을 차라고(kick) 지시하는 장면이 나옴 [37:24]counter, 카운터)을 가르치기 위한 것임 [37:24]unpleasant(불쾌한 자극)가 공에 대한 희망보다 낮게 설정되어 있고, 개가 줄을 당기면 불쾌한 자극이 멈추는 것이 게임의 핵심임 [37:24]counter를 가르치는 일반적인 훈련 방식임 [37:53]counter를 수행하면 불쾌한 느낌이 사라지고, 결국 밧줄을 놓아주며 보상함 [38:19]Bells and Ring sports(벨과 링 스포츠)에서 push grip(밀어내는 그립)을 요구할 때, 개가 줄을 당기게 하지 않음 [38:19]pulling(당기기)과 headbanging(머리 흔들기)이 시작되기 때문에 절대 줄을 잡은 상태로 훈련하지 않음 [38:19]scapegoat, 검은 양)을 찾아 그들을 죽이려 함 [38:46]biting)가 포함된 독스포츠의 미래는 위태로우며, 미디어가 자극적인 영상을 선호하기 때문에 관련 규제는 이웃 국가로 확산될 것임 [39:13]Osama bin Laden(오사마 빈 라덴)을 잡는 데 기여했던 훈련견이나 그 팀의 성과는 이미 잊혔음 [39:13]doggy(강아지)를 올려두고 쓰다듬으며, 그 앞에서 MMA(종합격투기)를 보는 것을 즐김. [39:42]MMA 선수들은 단지 키스와 하트만으로 훈련되지 않음. [39:42]Chihuahua(치와와)를 무릎에 앉히고 닭다리를 먹이며 지내고 있었음. [40:37]Ring Sport(링 스포츠)의 기원Ring sport(링 스포츠)를 시작함. [41:59]Belgium Ring Sport(벨기에 링 스포츠)의 시작이 됨. [41:59]crate(이동장), 자동차, 트레일러에서 나와 훈련장으로 향하는 모습을 보지만, 그 내면은 보지 못함. [41:59]NePoPo® 시스템의 철학: Heart and SoulBart & Michael Bellon이 NePoPo® School에서 가르치는 핵심 키워드는 "Heart and soul must come out of the dog and under control"(개에게서 심장과 영혼이 뿜어져 나오되, 그것이 통제 아래 있어야 한다)임. [42:58]Heart and soul(열정과 영혼)을 끌어내야 하지만, 동시에 그것이 매우 통제 가능한 상태여야 함. [43:30]correction(교정)이 뒤따르며, 개들은 이를 대비해야 함. [43:30]correction(교정)을 받은 후 다시 열정적으로 작업에 복귀하며, correction(교정)을 피하는 방법을 학습했기 때문에 다시는 그 correction(교정)을 받을 일을 하지 않음. [43:30]correction(교정)을 받는 방법을 이미 알고 있고 피하는 법을 배웠기 때문에 stress(스트레스) 없이 진행됨. [43:30]PoPo(positive-positive) 훈련이 논쟁의 여지가 많아 보일 수 있지만, 정의를 제대로 이해하면 그렇지 않음 [43:59]Stress(스트레스)는 반려견 훈련에서 가장 많이 사용되는 단어 중 하나임 [44:28]Stress(스트레스)의 의미: "Uncontrollable reactions from the organism on physiological and psychological pressure" (생리적 및 심리적 압박에 대한 유기체의 통제 불가능한 반응) [44:28]Stress(스트레스)는 사라짐 [44:28]Control position(통제 위치/제어 자세)이 필요한 이유임 [44:28]Predictable correction(예측 가능한 교정)으로부터 벗어나는 법을 알아야 함 [44:28]IGP(Internationale Gebrauchshund Pruefung) 스포츠에서 꼬리를 높이 들고 활기찬 개를 선호하는 것은 합리적이지만, 정도를 지나치고 있음 [45:21]Drive(드라이브)와 Nervy dog(신경질적인 개)을 구분하지 못하고, 단지 꼬리를 높이 들고 있다는 이유만으로 Nervy dog(신경질적인 개)을 선택하는 실수를 범함 [45:51]Drive(드라이브)를 가진 개는 평소에는 아주 차분하게 잠을 잘 수 있음 [45:51]Drive(드라이브)를 가진 개는 신호가 떨어지면 즉각적으로 반응함 [46:17]On-off switch(온-오프 스위치)의 개념:Nervy dog(신경질적인 개)을 가짐 [46:17]Nervy dog(신경질적인 개)을 선택하는 것은 매우 큰 실수임 [46:48]Ragnar처럼 극도로 안정적인 개들이 인기를 잃어가고 있음 [46:48]Nervy dog(신경질적인 개)부터 극도로 안정적인 개까지 다양한 타입의 개를 훈련할 수 있어야 함 [46:48]Malinois(말리노이즈)의 인기가 급상승하면서, 개를 키워선 안 될 사람들도 무조건적으로 "Where do I get a Malinois?" (어디서 말리노이즈를 구할 수 있죠?)라고 묻는 상황 [47:47]Malinois(말리노이즈)의 인기가 높아진 것에 대해, 한편으로는 견종의 명예라고 생각하지만 다른 한편으로는 그것이 비극(drama)임을 명확히 해야 함 [48:39]German Shepherd를 비난하려는 것은 아니지만, 특정 부류의 Labrador Retriever에서도 이런 현상이 보임) [48:39]Malinois를 보고 "저렇게 생긴 개를 원해"라고 생각하며, Golden Retriever를 키우는 것과 똑같은 평범한 반려견이 될 것이라고 착각함 [49:08]Malinois의 원산지인 벨기에나 German Shepherd의 원산지인 독일은 animal welfare(동물 복지) 규제 때문에 완전히 손발이 묶여 있음 [49:37]COVID-19으로 인해 대부분의 클럽이 1년간 완전히 문을 닫았음 [49:37]Belgian Ring 스포츠 클럽과 Bite 클럽들이 문을 닫게 됨 [50:11]e-collar 금지 움직임에 대한 비판e-collar(전자 훈련기)를 금지하려 함 [50:40]NePoPo® 팀의 입장: "we don't fight for it anymore for us we did five ten years ago nobody didn't want to fight with us nobody helped they just pulled their pants down" — (5~10년 전에 싸우려 했으나 아무도 돕지 않고 다들 굴복해 버렸기에, 이제는 더 이상 싸우지 않음) [50:40]e-collar 없이는 현대적인 방식으로 개를 훈련하는 것이 불가능함 [51:05]Ring Sport의 종말을 다루고 있음 [52:35]e-collar(전자식 훈련기)를 금지하려는 움직임 때문에 같은 드라마(비극)가 벌어지고 있으며, Ring Sport와 bitework(물기 훈련) 분야는 이미 50% 이상의 회원을 잃었음 [53:06]bitework 분야 내에서도 IGP, PSA, French Ring, Mondial Ring, KNPV, NVBK 등 너무 많은 종목이 있고, 끊임없이 새로운 종목이 만들어짐 [53:59]bitework 분야에서 가장 성장세가 빠른 종목은 PSA이며, 그들은 무언가를 올바르게 해내고 있음 [54:29]PSA에서 부족하다고 느끼는 점:athletic jumps(운동적 도약/장애물 점프)가 부족함 [54:55]finishing exercises(마무리 훈련)가 부족하고, 운동 그 자체보다 conflict(갈등 상황)에 너무 집중되어 있음 [54:55]PSA가 성공한 이유:IGP는 훨씬 복잡하고, French Ring은 최고 수준의 helper(보조 훈련사)가 필요하여 배우기 매우 어려움 [55:27]ABC 단계부터 XYZ 단계로 나아가는 고된 훈련을 원치 않음. PSA는 Belgian Ring처럼 훈련 과정 자체에서 큰 즐거움을 느끼게 함 [55:27][55:57][55:57][56:27][56:27][56:27]PSA(Protection Sports Association)의 아이디어처럼, 현실적인 '센트 휠(scent wheel, 냄새 식별 바퀴)'을 활용한 훈련은 매우 유익하다. [57:03]Man trailing(사람 추적)은 매우 흥미롭고 재미있는 활동이다. 유럽보다 공간이 넓은 미국에서는 특히 더 즐기기 좋은 환경이다. [57:03]scent wheel을 통해 coffee, tea 등 다양한 냄새를 식별하게 하며, 이후 사람의 냄새를 추적하는 방식으로 발전시킨다. [57:32]sharpness(예리함/날카로움)를 확인하고 싶다면 muzzle work(입마개 훈련)를 해야 한다. [57:32]muzzle work는 단순히 helper(도우미)를 대상으로 하는 것이어서는 안 된다(그것은 단지 prey(포식 본능/사냥감)에 대한 반응일 뿐이기 때문). [57:32]civil people(일반인)을 대상으로 한 muzzle work가 이루어져야 한다. [57:32][57:59][57:59][58:25][58:55][58:55]Riser(인물명)라는 노령의 훈련사가 있다. 그에 대한 호불호는 갈리지만, 그가 사람들에게 거짓말을 했다고 말하는 사람은 없다. [59:29]Riser는 항상 positive reinforcement(정적 강화)와 negative reinforcement(부적 강화)에 대해 이야기했다. [59:29]Helmut(인물명) 또한 항상 '포도주와 물(wine and the water)'에 대해 가르쳤다. [59:29][59:29]NePoPo® 관련 사업체)라는 우선적인 의제(agenda)가 있음 — [59:56]Royal Canin이 파트너십을 철회하는 등 다른 기업들도 이를 따르고 있음 — [61:51]PETA의 비즈니스 모델: 영상을 제작하는 데 막대한 비용(전문가 촬영 등 수천 유로 소요)이 들기 때문에, 영상을 올릴 때마다 사람들에게 기부를 요구함 — [62:50]Zot이었음 [64:12]Zot은 사이코패스(psychopath) 기질이 있었기 때문에 번식에 사용하지 않았음 [64:12]Zot은 통제하에서는 훌륭한 'unicum'(독보적인 존재)이었으나, 기본적으로는 통제가 필요한 광기 어린 개였음 [64:12]Zot에게서 태어난 강아지 중 한 마리는 역대 가장 온순한 개였음 [64:12]Zot의 손자인 Flick은 Peter Muller와 그의 아내 Anke Bochum에게 입양되어 독일 DVG(Deutscher Verband der Gebrauchshundsportvereine) 챔피언을 두 번이나 차지함 [64:42]Zot의 또 다른 아들로는 Black Top이 있음 [64:42]Malinois, German Shepherd, Rottweiler는 반드시 혈통서가 있어야 하고, 혈통서가 있어야만 대회에 나갈 수 있다는 인식)은 인종차별이 시작되는 지점이며, 진정한 실력보다는 혈통을 우선시하는 태도를 비판함 [65:13]NVBK(Nationaal Verbond van Belgische Klubben)로부터 대회 출전을 거부당했을 때, 법적 대응을 통해 복귀를 강제함 [66:09]NVBK는 출전을 막은 매일 1,000~2,000유로를 지불해야 했고, 7일 후 다시 벨기에 챔피언십 출전 초청장을 보내옴 [66:09]Zot과 본인의 성적을 깎기 위해 모든 수단을 동원할 것을 알고 있었음 [66:37]Zot을 깎아내리기 위해 모든 수단을 다 동원했음을 설명) [67:06]NVBK 스포츠에 대해서는 애증의 관계(hate relationship)를 가지고 있음 [67:06]bitework(물기 훈련)는 단순히 '무는 것' 그 이상이며, 매우 풍부하고 복잡한 게임임 [67:35]bitework를 평가할 때 고려해야 할 요소들: [67:35]the way the dog bites)the way he goes to bite)the way that he outs)the way that he's confident)the way that he looks to you)stick(막대기)을 대하는 방식(the way that he takes the stick)the way that you think he comes left and he comes right)how can you make a donkey drinking when he's not thirsty) [68:07]you can bring the horse to the water drink but you can't make him drink) [68:07]school(교육 과정)은 더 'Coca-Cola light' 버전(부드럽고 자극이 적은 형태)으로 진행할 예정이며, 무엇을 바꿔야 할지 신중하게 검토할 것임 [68:33]Mr. Mesbeth가 캐나다에서 창조한 교육적 배경과 방식은 그의 권리임 [69:10]Mr. Mesbeth가 helper(도우미)로서 특정 개를 훈련할 때 물기 교육이 잘 안 된다면, 사람들은 그가 '일부러(on purpose)' 그랬다고 비난할 것임 [69:10]Me Too 관련 오해나 고소를 당할까 봐 두려움 [69:39]political correctness(정치적 올바름)가 사회를 마비시키고 있으며, 사람들이 자기 자신이 되는 것을 어렵게 만듦 [69:39]foreign exotic accent) 덕분에 자유롭게 농담을 할 수 있었으나, 이제는 모든 발언이 감시 대상이 되어 어려운 위치에 놓임 [70:10]Will에게는 현재의 '과도하게 올바른(over correct)' 사회 분위기가 자신이나 Michael보다 훨씬 더 살기 힘든 환경이 될 것임 [70:39]clicker trainer를 활용해 작은 것을 배우게 함 [74:03]Michael과 Bart에게 인턴십을 오면 하루 종일 훈련만 할 것이라 기대하지만, 실제 전문적인 훈련 시간은 하루에 약 5분 정도이며 나머지 시간은 다른 일상적인 활동들로 채워짐 [76:07]slow negative reinforcement(느린 부적 강화)를 활용하여 훈련한 결과, 개가 귀를 쫑긋 세우고 열정적으로 달려왔음 [77:04]ball(공)을 보상으로 주는 훈련을 함. 켄넬 근처로 가면 갇히게 된다는 생각을 깨고, 돌아오면 즐거운 보상이 따른다는 것을 학습시킴 [77:34]NePoPo® 시스템의 미션은 개가 cue(신호)에 복종하되, heart and soul(진심과 열정)을 다해 행동하도록 가르치는 것임 [77:34]NePoPo® 시스템 도입을 요청받은 바 있음 [78:07]weapon law(무기법)가 아닌 animal welfare law(동물 복지법)의 적용을 받기 때문에 훈련 시스템에 대한 명확한 설명이 요구됨 [78:07]animal welfare law(동물 복지법)와 convention of geneva(제네바 협약) [78:37]convention of geneva(제네바 협약)는 적군에 대한 존중을 명시하며, animal welfare law(동물 복지법)보다 상위의 가치로 평가됨 [78:37]out(교전 중지/복종)시키지 못하면, 적군에 대한 잔혹 행위로 간주되어 군사 재판에 회부될 수 있음 [78:37]Michael과 Bart는 미국 내 법 집행 기관(law enforcement)의 영상에서 개를 out 시키지 못하고 통제하지 못하는 상황을 매우 심각한 문제로 인식함 [79:09]NePoPo® 훈련을 수행하면서 animal welfare(동물 복지) 단체로부터 공격받거나 비난받은 적이 없었음 [83:24]pinch collar(핀치 칼라), choke collar(초크 칼라), clicker(클리커), ball(공) 등 모든 도구를 활용한다는 사실을 공개적으로 알렸고, 항상 조화를 추구했음 [83:24]wheelchair(휠체어)를 사용하는 지인이 매우 강한 혈통의 Malinois(말리노이즈)를 데리고 옴 [83:54]possessive(소유욕)을 보이며 모두를 물려고 했음 [84:21]animal welfare(동물 복지) 관련 문제가 발생했을 수 있음 [84:51]NePoPo® 세미나에서는 사진과 영상 촬영을 엄격히 금지함 ("no videos no photos... no videos for nobody" — 영상 금지, 사진 금지, 누구에게도 영상을 주지 않음) [85:19]Martin System® 팀원들은 초기에는 '내일이나 모레' 처리하는 업무 방식에 익숙했음 [91:11]Martin System®이 도착하면 새벽 5시에도 업무를 시작하고, 밤 9시까지 현장을 지키는 모습을 보여줌으로써 팀원들의 업무 태도를 변화시킴 [91:11]Harmony Model을 지향함 [93:08]NePoPo® 팀의 솔직함과 당당함이 현대 사회에 꼭 필요한 요소라고 평가함 [93:37]Martin System®의 신제품 출시 소식 (The cat is out of the bag): 월말에 새로운 제품 라인업 출시 예정 [94:05]school에서 진행될 예정 [94:36][00:00] hello hello I will Michael how you doing hey there Bart how's it going we're ready good can you guys hear me all right oh maybe I should turn it like this in whatever works for you guys hold on one second I thought I could do it on the computer but yeah the live can't Instagram is [00:27] just so touchy Instagram is just so touchy sometimes I guess awesome you see I guess I can see you a little bit yeah maybe better let me down no you can't work sideways I mean like maybe can you move the camera out a little bit so that I can so that we can see you both you know I mean like if there [00:53] you go put it like that and maybe move it a little bit farther away from you there you go good view right there how are you guys doing good good awesome awesome you can ask both questions you want if you want to answer we answer if you touch with them I understand I completely understand no words yes I get it I completely understand yeah and if I if I do touch on some touchy topics by all [01:30] means we can move on won't take a personal it's not a big deal I really appreciate yes you got it you move on next question well but thank you very much for taking the time to talk to me I really appreciate it again thank you so much for both of you for helping me out with that book it's just great great feedback [01:58] that I've gotten and your input has been so valuable to that project so again good to see you guys again good speaking to you again and I'm looking forward to this interview you know the whole problem of all the bites work is that people like the animosity the cheeky cheeky Chaka people never like to do the ABC people [02:23] do help for work they don't want to prepare the dog for the control from the help of work because that's yes and yeah they like to do help for work when the dog is seven weeks old where you should still see and point diapers no they do help for work and yes if you do help for work with the dog I've got your mate well it's like cocaine and then later you must be happy with normal stuff it's impossible very [02:56] hard it's all it's all that dopamine that keeps building up from a young age and then you just get it more and more hyped up I've seen people do crazy things for like seven eight week old puppies I mean they're they're doing crazy things there's like a bunch of stuff they're slamming the puppy against the against the wall I look at that I'm like why why is it just because it looks good it's just all about the flashiness and it just it irritates me actually I know it irritates us also when it
[03:25] makes and then if you see the dog's back one year later they're afraid of everything there's the stress of everything yes that dog and they get rid of it it's always the same you know and then they go oh it's the dog I don't like the dog you know it's just it's it's the dog doesn't have the right nerves I just don't want them but if they could just harness that and go a puppy we're gonna train like a puppy a young dog we're gonna train like a young dog an adult dog we're gonna train like an adult [03:52] dog if they just did that they would just go they would they wouldn't go through as many dogs as they do and because that's why the good dogs are worn out early and the dogs who are you take too long to mature people want to write them off because they want to do all that stuff at a young age um yes we did make two three four little videos today about the unforced or fetch we post them on Facebook to show [04:21] people how you prepare the dog you must hold you must you must give and later when the dog is biting on the table you must bite and you must out and when it does not out we can give a correction in the language that you did prepare the dog and also that he even when the helper is there you must give him the the pipe [04:47] that is has no interest when the helper is around but he must hold that too a lot of dogs won't even hold the ball when the helper is around that makes sense yeah that makes perfect sense you make them you give them a job before they go by and you say you must hold and you must give and now you must go by and you must out and and that's why we try to explain people but they never listen it's they're like do [05:17] you they like for double bullshit you know do you think and and so do you think uh that a lot of this is because social media rewards shitty training and so like when they see things like this are like ah well that's kind of boring I just want to do the fun you know the fun stuff do you think social media adds to it well first of all I think we should identify what you mean adds to it okay so like for the audience [05:46] and then start with that yeah so um you know one thing that that gets a lot of views for instance like and I'm sure you've seen it too are we live already because I don't know we're live oh hi everybody yeah now I start smiling yeah we're good to go we're live everybody's here um so like what I mean is I'm sure you've seen this and I've seen it too where um you know you see videos of dogs doing things that you can see it's clear
[06:18] if you understand body language you can tell the dog is a not having a good time they're pushing too much putting too much pressure on the dog and it's clear the dog hasn't been prepared but because it looks flashy and nice people are like oh my god that's amazing and so people want to do that all the time because it's not fun to see like the training sessions that you guys are talking about like the pipe Michael and I we see it easy if you see a young kid from six years old with a cigarette in his [06:47] mouth when you do you kick his ass and when it's the young dog then it's good it's not normal I mean people must learn that there is a lot of similar things between kids and dog training it's about consequences it's about ABCs it's about alphabet and age appropriateness yeah that's absolutely correct yeah absolutely we we had so many demands to do a podcast about this subject you cannot believe but [07:19] first thing was you I really appreciate that I'm honored I mean we cannot do the same podcast ten times again it doesn't make sense yeah that makes perfect sense the video and I hope that people did look at that video well that's the thing we still haven't talked about what made this podcast start is that I posted a video that was a finished video and what you can attend there will video from Finland yes [07:50] so um you know I posted it too uh well actually I haven't posted it I saw it as soon as I saw it I was like holy crap you know I sent you guys a message um you know the video is basically what I see of the video is just uh you know hidden cameras and really what I see is I see uh ammunition to fuel an agenda right like there things being something some things at least I can definitely see being taken out [08:20] of context and it's like hey this is the way we're gonna do it this is we're gonna do it here see here's why this is bad here's why we need to fuel this agenda because now we have some ammunition I agree with you completely your assessment of that can I add something on that so of course if you look to a video or whatever online social media things are not always what they look [08:49] like they are an agenda behind it and there is a deep thing behind it so Michael and I we never go over one night of ice we like hot items to put in the agenda that people think about it speak about it and be careful with reactions because a lot of people throw reactions and I'm thinking without what I did reacting they're emotional it's emotions first emotion exactly and if you see the gear of the
[09:23] people having those cameras it's like professional snipers but instead yes gun to kill they have gear to take pictures to kill later with it was orchestrated it's totally orchestrated manipulated yes to push your buttons and yeah emotional yeah very emotional it reminds me of a video of five weeks ago sorry that I started about that where somebody did say things and then they put a statement and they say the only thing we were missing on this video is and Martin systems and [09:59] what are you thinking about this how are we responsible for this well indirect everybody's responsible indirect yeah yeah that video from five weeks ago everybody has butt on their heads everybody but that's so here also we are all having butter on our head but now I'm going to tell you something very important [10:26] yes I have a Belgian friend and I will not call the name and he is a student from the university of Utrecht in Holland where in those days they were the only university to give behaviorism etology the know the know-how about dogs and the other day of training all the intelligent people sitting together and the danger of intelligent [10:57] people sitting together is they do brain masturbation we call that they are very strong blah blah blah blah but never on the field that guy told me and he still is a good friend and he said Bart there is a hidden agenda from all those people and the hidden agenda is stop the bite work and all the bite sports in Europe [11:22] because now come they know exactly that when a dog is really biting as behaviors that the biting itself is self-rewarding and you cannot compete against that self-rewarding behavior with whatever in positive training only it's impossible so they know that exactly that's why to cut out the possibility to do bite sports because they don't want that [11:53] little steps to reach it the first step they introduced was for all the bite sports no more stick because in the old days when I was a young guy before the dog bite was always thicker position always and the dog had to come through the stick hit on the head or whatever and then the dog had to show character the only sport where they still do it is the KNPV sport with the rotten stick now [12:20] you have to touch the brakes so it's okay but in the old days it was a quite tough stick so they took that away that was the first thing so the stick from the IGP the strong stick became the soft stick yeah yeah three years ago if I remember well in Austria where they did the world championships it was the fake stick they did capoeira the sticks
[12:47] was there to just fake and not touch the dog because it was not good for the public and la la la la in the French ring sport in the old days it was a baton a stick in bamboo and the helpers that are very light suited they're very light dresses and the dog bite hard and then there was a vicious fight between the helper and the dogs it was brutal so both sides and the helpers became quite rough with their sticks [13:16] and to diminish the stick effect they obliged the stick to be cut in different slices to make sense more gentle and in the French ring sport there is no more they cannot touch the dog anymore before the bite it's not allowed it's not allowed okay then in the Belgian ring sport we never did a lot of opposition with the stick the Belgians is more about a lot of faking and a lot of hippie people ray it's more about [13:50] it's a circus okay so it's another mentality but the first step from all those behaviors was the stick and the big federations they all did put the pants down and please take me animal welfare because nobody could tell why we have sticks Michael and I don't know exactly why because we are the generation of people [14:16] that are guarding the genetics the treasury of genetics that the old people did select for us and that you and we must select for the next generation of dog trainers you want to keep them around and yeah part of it and toughness means opposition nowadays it starts in the schools with kids everybody is the winner you are the last but you're a winner participation award participation trophy [14:45] so that means it's a whole mentality and that changed peu à peu then you and I we must preserve the genetics of a healthy dog that can jump higher not lower because they lowered the a frame at the the straight frame and it came a frame the jumps are not very selective anymore it's the only sport where everything goes down it's dog sports look to all the other sports it goes higher and faster not dog sports [15:15] because the poor little animal and me I want to compete with my dog well you must not put it so high that's why Michael and I we have a proposition we make a competition where everybody put his low height or his high height and the higher you jump the more points you have and the better for the genetics and you cannot push a dog with brutality to jump high or far it's impossible you must do that with
[15:40] motivation techniques but the leather they never let us speak they let people speak that don't know too much about dog training and that always put down the pants and say oh no we don't do this anymore the same with the pinch collar the stick the pinch collar the choke collar the e-collar the whip all these are little steps to the definite stop of bite work this video I mean that's politics 101 of course start [16:11] with little things it's brutally manipulated and I know and we know what the federations in Germany gonna do and in Finland they're gonna put down the pants more and more because they don't want to have bite work anymore they don't want that because they know exactly we cannot control it but there's something we must also say we the trainers must know the animal welfare law better that's why when Michael and I [16:37] we start the seminar or we start the school we always start with what is the law telling about animal welfare and it's easy it is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog suffer that means that with a valid reason you are allowed and you must give pain where from you can suffer and there is two [17:08] reasons where you must inflict pain it's when a dog bites a human being you must with any means stop that animal to bite because if you don't stop the bite they can charge you for not helping a person that needs help you understand what I mean yeah there is the other law that goes over animal welfare and there's another reason why you must inflict pain is to save the life of your animal now we're gonna turn it [17:41] when we have a helper in a suit are we allowed to inflict pain no it's not allowed that means that and that's why we do the unforced force fetch on a table where we learn our dogs that the stimulus is a tactile language that means hold the same stimulus is a tactile language that means give and later in the bite work the assimilation comes and the stimulus to bite and the stimulus out and then [18:10] later when the dogs are really biting because we have so good genetics that one day they really start biting and that the biting is self-rewarding then you say the word out and the dog say i don't out anymore because that is the result of top training that the behavior becomes self-rewarding but we must tell the dog out and that's why we give him a little correction he knows exactly how to handle that and knows exactly
[18:42] how to avoid that in the future to not be correct anymore that's why there's no stress and there is no stress and that's what people don't grab and what does what is the definition of the word stress and the people also don't grab it that when they have little puppies and they click and the dog outs for the food that will work for a time but once the dog really loves biting you can click and they don't out for the food they don't want the food the biting is the most important it's like what it's like with [19:11] kids like if if you just treat your kids with like hey yeah it's everything's fine it's fine everything's fine and then when they're teenagers and then they do something that is not fun and you drop the hammer not fair like you have to they have to under i have two teenagers so i know exactly how this is right you have yeah one of the most one of the most important things in dog training is that every behavior becomes self-rewarding healing sit down stand still hold sniff if a dog is working it doesn't [19:43] need rewards anymore because the work is self-rewarding and that's what you need and if you need to reward the bite for the out you will not live long believe me the dog must love the bite and love the out bart just showed a clip today of ragnar on the table holding the a metal bar letting go of the metal bar [20:09] biting the helper outing looking at him looking at the helper and all of those things he does happily there's no conflict with passion of course yes right with passion but mike and i try to get this in every exercise control heart and soul because the crazy junkie we don't want that we like a dog that [20:34] is under full control but that love and has passion for every exercise and that's the problem when a dog has no culture and you start it on bite work that makes perfect sense i mean and then i see it like like i told you in the in our previous interview when we talked about the book i do run a club and i do work with people from you know different uh different training backgrounds and a lot of it is [20:59] troubleshooting the problems that they created because they just wanted to go go go go instead of going nice and slow with the dog at the dog's pace but even as soon as the dog starts biting people start doing the whole routine i see it and i'm like what are you doing they don't do the abcs and get everything and then put them they want to put the roof of the house they don't they don't do the chunking you know they don't do the individual steps and then chunk it together and they just do the whole
[21:28] thing and then it's a big mishmash of mess yes to go back to that video because that's the whole point the finished video the finished video it's a very well prepared action and it will put dog sport with biting in big big big problems in europe and it will fly over like the corona virus to the united states of america and it will start in the states that are very excuse me the words a lot of marijuana a lot of [21:58] free thinking uh we want solar energy that is the states where it will come first and they will try it the states that the liberals all the liberals well i have no problem with that because they always ask me bart michael well how do you think politically i always i think the right side the other side is wrong right and wrong because my language what you guys call right is good right and [22:26] left is bad right right on left i gotcha yes yes so it's easy but it's not about politics here it's about continuation of our dog sport so that you and i and all other people that like dog sport still can do it without being treated like a gangster because now come with all these events the gentleman that was on the field and in charge and that in my opinion did nothing wrong they will crucify him [22:57] they will crucify him because the people want a black sheep that must be slaughtered and they're going to slaughtered that gentleman and people do that that is hired like you and like we on the seminar and there you are with people that don't do chunking for two years then they have problems and they're not prepared the dog for the inevitable correction that will come one day and then you see things like this this is the typical thing and that's why michael and i said no more seminars we now go for a school [23:27] where we teach people the abcs and they need minimum five years to be able to turn it around you don't like to do that patient you're not welcome in our school because we don't need you you will not be a good advertising we want to be on on the seminar you are a trick master you're the magician that fixes all these little tricks you know when we were in germany michael and i or in europe we [23:55] always did speak about the whole agenda negative reinforcement positive reinforcement consequences for doing and consequences for not doing because we did drink and preach water but we also did preach and drink wine where most people only preach water and drink wine behind the corners the whole thing in europe is sick because nobody dares to speak free anymore nobody and it is so far that everybody has to train
[24:26] behind the bushes and private yes right yeah people will will be snipers and take videos of them it's it's unbelievable now what yeah that's what happens now what people don't understand and you must know that historically where did animal welfare starts people don't know that you know do you know you know welfare started i know the german ss did start animal welfare the monsters the monsters from ss [24:55] they did start animal welfare to stop the jewish people to do their home slaughter because that was the main reason to stop jewish people to do their house slaughter with the slaughtering of the sheeps yeah yeah yeah yeah sort of time ritual and that's why all the countries around germany and certainly above germany they go in that extreme agenda of animal welfare and it's it doesn't amaze me that it [25:21] started there again and it's very very well prepared agenda and people don't know how to react because there is people that have honorable jobs they will be afraid to do bike work because they will they will be half gangsters but i i've heard from a lot of the people who live in those northern countries and the more rules they have set out to save people and protect people also gives more things you're not [25:53] allowed to do you are forbidden you see what i'm saying so yeah in the name of helping but you lose your freedoms one by one by one it's like telling people hey uh your gun you can't have you know this many rounds in your magazine you have to have less around 10 rounds all right you can't have this type of gun all right you can't have guns at all because they're bad for you they're bad for everybody and [26:18] then that doesn't stop people from getting guns i'm sorry i went a little bit political here again but you know that's that's how the whole movement goes right it goes very uh it want to do a little bit at a time a little bit freedom here and there and it doesn't stop it doesn't stop people and i think you you you you hit it on the head it's a worldwide movement at the moment oh yeah oh yeah worldwide [26:45] movement and professionals like michael and me we will not be hurt like this but we put our heads in the in the front lines again because some people will try to chop it off we don't care we are strong enough we have you stick your neck out for the industry we have no problem with that and now we are we are financially at the point where we are healthy so good not too much thing can happen to michael and to me so we must stick our heads in the front line and try to help help to solve
[27:17] this problem now we did go over that video over and over and over again because people always think and name that yeah tell about it and people think that we are not well prepared so me when we speak about things we prepare things otherwise shut them out and be silent that means that you see the video and there is a little bit aggression work at a certain moment where they give out and the help [27:49] us the whip behind yes i saw that part yeah rocking with the ears down and the teeth open that's what we call aggression work well let's say like this in all our career the last 15 years a lot of times people did request us please can we go to aggression work we say no because joe bob should not do aggression work because joe bob has a job up is a general public the general public has a dog that lives in [28:18] the house together with the kids and it has been bred to be stable and so on and so on and we gonna make it totally opposite that of that dog and then aggression work is done by monkey see monkey do people that don't know what to do they just see something they copy something and that's a dangerous mix then they have an uncontrollable dangerous dog we never do that we never do aggression work we don't [28:45] teach that we never do that and in the old days i know exactly how they did it in the old days they just did pray the dog could bite in the blind no barking nobody trained on barking because biting one day when the dog was really biting in the blind then they said okay now when the dog comes in the blind there will be a big conflict normal biting there the selection was done by stopping the habituation [29:11] of biting with a big unpleasant feeling normal dogs did run away selection was done and the strong dogs they did shift their eyes that it became blue green they opened their lips their mouth and they did spit fire and there was the aggression always but now what's the new problem how do we out those dogs outing the dog and controlling the dog so it's it's a very complicated game and in the beginning when you do [29:43] dog sport healing is healing oh my dog has prey drive because you think the dog has prey dog and sit is sit and barking is barking and healing is healing but know you more about dog sport is whoa my healing looks like it's not healing there is no heart and soul there is no reflex response whoa my dog has no prey dive at all when something happens he looks away from the ball so the more you know about the whole thing the
[30:14] more you understand that healing is not just healing that's why i never don't even listen to my customers i don't ask them those questions i don't ask how is your ball draft because people will tell that tell me it's fantastic so and when you see it it's a totally different thing to go back to that video the aggression work so yes nothing wrong very normal what people do it's it's what people it happens all over the world so nothing special and we cannot judge the video the way they bring it together because [30:47] yeah guys on the field and the ladies on the field we know a few of them they are not the first and the best thing because they know how to train dogs so this is really manipulated then you see healing and with the helper at the side we call that training healing and of course the dog is attracted by the helper and of course he receives a stop doing that and then you see that dog starts healing very fast [31:15] yeah he's not extinguished at all so nothing wrong there we call that conflict management training and then at a certain point instead of bringing the dog in healing position with the leash they pull the dog out of healing position and then three all of the street and then the dog has to fight to go back in the what we call the safe zone pull position right opposition reflex yeah of course [31:41] opposition reflex nothing wrong there and if you reach the top everybody does this yeah yeah and the apport the apport is done in the old-fashioned way with the avoidance training method and you hear the dog vocalizing a little thing and then as soon a german shepherd and good german shepherd they all do oh yes yes yes and you know yeah of course so but people don't understand that so don't judge this [32:09] video on the video but nobody's gonna judge it that's the big problem and they have the biggest mouth we call that seagull politics they scream a lot they poop a lot and they scream for the whole army but it's only five of them and we the majority we have a big silent army we put the pants down that's the problem we must stop doing that stop pulling your pants down everybody hold the line and [32:36] send out the flag and there is nothing wrong if you do it with animal welfare in your flag you now have a question yes i have a question for you guys so um i know in the pet industry okay um there are some very incompetent dog trainers and i understand you know i understand the use of pressure i understand the you know that there's going to be conflict uh but in the pet side there
[33:03] are some very incompetent trainers who everything for them that they cannot creatively think work through they automatically go through pressure automatically start slamming hitting hitting the dog with a baseball bat and you see like some of these people do sometimes attract some of that negative attention to the industry as a whole what are your thoughts on that education education is key i mean well i think [33:34] that in every professional you have mumbo-jumbos and you have people that know their job a plumber an example michael went lately to the dentist which are the root canal to be fixed in the united states and i wanted after the other fold out and i asked michael because i like to joke did you ask the dentist if he has a diploma and if he has a diploma in fixing teeth or in breaking teeth because if you go to [34:01] a dentist nobody asks can i see your diploma and nobody asks where did you get your diploma you think the diploma with dog trains it's the same it's a free market so yeah i think that the end consumer it's up to the end consumer to decide and that's it's very hard to clean it up and i think that the dog does speak for the trainer and you see also that [34:29] trainers who don't know a lot can still teach people who know less yes that's true that is true the more educated everyone is the more they know what they need and who is going to be good for them but you know it all comes down to education that's after my post of yesterday evening where i did how do you call um repost her [34:56] video i had so much comments and then i'm thinking did they ever train a dog did i ever have a dog that was biting yeah because i read those comments and i'm i'm thinking well some like some well well well well well well you can out a dog with a cookie i mean yeah you can probably out out out out a dog with a with a cookie if they're a golden retriever you know what i'm saying and there's nothing wrong with the golden retriever but i'm just saying he's not bred to be the bite works it's another job and the [35:27] thing is that really it's like i've seen all kinds of dogs i've even seen really truly vicious dogs you know and some people never see it's a one in a thousand yeah one in a thousand dog but i'm not making it up but i see all i see customers and they say their dog is vicious and it's not yes yeah yeah i'm uh i've seen a i've seen a dog nearly rip his handler's calf right out of his leg right like
[35:57] vicious but like you said that's like one in like a thousand exactly the thing is that if you haven't if you don't have the experience and you haven't seen it you just think it doesn't exist you're absolutely correct but experience is something and experience is something that you can only get for yourself coming to a school doesn't give it to you well thank you yeah you're absolutely correct about that you do need to put the hours then we continue the video then there is [36:28] a moment where they slap a dog a little bit on the head today yeah on purpose when my dog was biting to make him bite harder i mean that makes sense so from your stop i did see that it even had no effect on the dog do you want like i don't care continue slapping me i don't care so i mean of course we don't like to see it but we don't know the whole we don't know the whole story you're [36:54] saying it's out of context and uh when when you see something out of context you only see a piece of it you're not seeing the whole picture and this is where emotions get involved they show the inflammatory down and then are the vocalizations the vocalizations of the moment you don't know and what do they speak in the finnish language i don't know at a certain point the trainer because with the doberman [37:24] that yeah on the rope and the trainer says kick him on his chest yes in our language and it's not to kick him out of the bowl it's to learn the dog to hold the ball and go backwards they call that conference the dog was counter to counter counter yeah counter yeah it's the unpleasant is lower than the hope of the bowl and the unpleasant stops when the dog is pulling that's the game so what can i say so and i [37:53] remember on that part of the video too when the guy said kick right when he was signaling this they didn't show that part right like it went to another clip no no they show you see that the dog is pulling and right don't see really that but i know exactly what they do so they learn the dog to pull and to counter there is nothing new to that and then when he counters there is no unpleasant feeling and [38:19] they lose the rope yeah and that's why we in the bells and ring sports where we need a push push grip we never let the dog pull never never have a dog on the rope for that reason because that's where the pulling and the headbanging starts it's typically okay so nothing wrong again with that little clip then uh pull back then i i i want to go over the video because yeah yeah definitely got slaughtered that guy
[38:46] his career is dumb they're gonna slaughter him but they should not but they're gonna they're gonna do that because the federations they're gonna crucify somebody they always look for that that we call it the scapegoat they always they want to sacrifice yeah the scapegoat yeah the scapegoat black sheep must see black sheep must be slaughtered that's yes and and the the people want a victim and that's it and they're gonna they're gonna have it gonna happen they're gonna and heads will roll here [39:13] and the future of dog sport with biting is jeopardized and it will go to the neighbor countries it will go because this is what the media likes to see and likes to show they don't like to show the dog that was capturing osama bin ladan that's already forgotten no no one trained to go to the target nobody speaks about that anymore because the guy is gone the bombs are forgotten now it's about all my [39:42] little doggy on my slap people love to see nma and on their laps they have their little dogs and they are cutting the petting the dog and in front of them they want to see blobs that's the modern blood yeasers well the guys and the ladies that do mma they are not trained with kisses and hearts only you know so the wife of the minister of agriculture it's typically huh in belgium years ago long ago in the [40:11] early 1900s dogs were pulling the carts and the dogs were the cheap horses to help the poor farmers to have an animal that helped them to do the heavy labor so they could pull they could they could run up their little uh yeah and they had bicycles turn the butter and and yeah yeah with little trailers and [40:37] the dogs were pulling and then there was a lady that was married with the minister of agriculture and most of the times the minister of agriculture has in his portfolio animal welfare and she was sitting there with her little chihuahua and nothing wrong with a little chihuahua with a little jacket and nothing wrong with a little jacket and that little chihuahua was eating chicken legs nothing wrong [41:03] with that but she felt sorry for the dogs that were pulling the cart she did not feel sorry for the guys pushing and pulling also the cart no and she because she did slept with the minister she could whisper in his eyes honey if you stop this cruelty i will deny it for you tonight they stopped the next day
[41:29] there was a new law proposal that was prohibiting dogs to pull carts in belgium the next day more than 500 000 dogs were slaughtered and killed because the poor farmer had no money to keep alive the animal that only was there to eat just as a pet out of welfare that it killed 500 000 dogs what the hell is that okay lucky us some of them [41:59] did not kill their dogs and they did start the ring sports on sunday and that's how belgium ring sport did start that is such uh important piece of information that most people don't even know right you know a lot people don't know what happens behind the curtains right another thing that they don't show on the video that they did show there again is how do the dogs like to come out crates and the cars and the trailers [42:27] to go on that field to go in the challenge to bite if they are cruel believe me not one dog comes out of that kennel or crate right and our experience is they like to go there they scream on the way there they scream on the way there so they love that but what we must learn because they don't do everything right what we dog trainers must learn is we need to understand that we have the society that likes to [42:58] see that we are good for the animals and that's good that's why michael and i when we teach our napo post school one of our keywords is heart and soul must come out of the dog and under control that is what we preach yeah heart and soul in every exercise but we know that when there is heart and soul in every exercise you must be able to control that so it must be very controllable and we yes we do prepare our dogs to get [43:30] a correction that will inevitably come in every exercise and when they get the correction they are so happy to fly back in their work and they will never never go on that correction again because they know how to avoid it because that's important and it's without stress because they know how to avoid it and that's what and they've been introduced to it yes and that's a little bit also in the when people video [43:59] popo ne training as i was talking about it can be more controversial is not very controversial if you see it we did speak about a very important word me i'm the son of a lawyer and he told me as a young guy it's all about definitions if you define a word you never have a fight about that word stress is a one of the most
[44:28] used words in dog training define it open the dictionary stress uncontrollable reactions from the organism on physiological and psychological pressure it's uncontrollable when it becomes controllable there is no stress and that's why the dog must have the control position the dog must know how to stay [44:53] away from the predictable correction which is why he which is why he must know it obviously before he gets a correction you must know it of course that makes sense so what happens in finland should matters all of us yes it will come over and we the dog trainers must try to understand better what we do [45:21] prepare the dog very well and it should look good the big problem from looking good because there's a new drama going on there's a new drama for example in the igp sports they like the tail up and the whole active dog which makes sense but people go so far that they only pick the puppies from five six weeks old that waggle their tails up if they don't waggle the tail up nobody wants a puppy anymore and now the [45:51] danger is i'm not kidding so the selection is on hyperactive dogs that are nervous racks and people don't see the difference between drive and nervy dog and they go to nervy dogs because they think that the tail up is a sign of drive no yeah good drive dog can sleep like there she's sleeping [46:17] and believe me when we give the word she's gung-ho like you cannot believe yeah that's what a dog should be we call that the on off switch people do that or the switch is off and they have the world charm don't move and then they try everything to make that animal move but they cannot or they have the opposite they have that nervous rack that cannot stop it's the middle of the road and that's what it is about you know yeah so a new drama due to that aesthetic look tail up ears [46:48] up the happy looks people are selecting dogs for that that are nervous racks that's a big big big big big mistake and a certain type of dog is falling out of favor yes the very stable dog is now falling out of favor like like dog ragnar who's an extreme stable dog extreme but when we switch the gear he's there but he must know how to train those dogs also right a good dog trainer must be able to walk different
[47:18] train the nervous dogs trying to yeah absolutely of course yeah so now not just one kind look uh question for you um do you feel we're talking about selection here yes and obviously somebody with experience knows what they're looking at they know what what to get um how do you feel about the uh increasing popularity of the working especially the malinois like it seems like everybody now wants [47:47] a malinois and i see people that shouldn't even have a dog let alone a working dog they're like automatically going where do i get a malinois i want a malinois where do i get a malinois uh do you feel like this is also affecting like the uh obviously supply and demand you have a higher supply uh higher demand you're gonna have the people are gonna come in and are gonna be willing to be indiscriminate about their breeding and you know provide these types of dogs to people that [48:13] don't know what they're looking for they're selecting the wrong dog and then those people then later at a year old are breeding that dog how do you feel about the increase in popularity of the working dog especially the malinois in regards to this conversation well well it's on one side a honor for the race for the breed but the other side is the drama so we must be [48:39] clear on that it's interesting because there there was a time when they they start breeding dogs that they really all were flat but they just look different you know like i don't mean to pick on the shepherd you know what i'm saying but and there's certain classes of labs you see the man so i think a little bit people look at the malinois and they think i want one that looks like that and they think [49:08] it's just going to be a nice little pet for them it'll be the same as having a gold retriever and you got the movies that are you know that are encouraging the look of the it's always bad when they have dogs in the movies and they always become popular but well let's say like this and now the biggest drama is coming that the original countries from the malinois for example [49:37] what you think about and german shepherd germany they are totally handcuffed by animal welfare so what i do see now in belgium for the moment is that due to covet most clubs were totally closed for one year but people don't understand in the states in europe the whole business is in the hands of the clubs that do it for club member fee 25 euro dollar for a whole year and 10 friends do it together
[50:11] in america due to the fact that people work much longer days there is less time to go to clubs that's why there is professionals that help people so it's different so the clubs that do for free in europe and that have a rent to pay for their property they are now financially it's over they cannot survive so it means that half of the belgian ring sport clubs and the bike clubs out because there is no ping [50:40] ping that's the first hammer they receive on the face now the second hammer is that in belgium also they just are trying and they will stop the e-collar they're gonna prohibit it and we don't fight for it anymore for us we did five ten years ago nobody didn't want to fight with us nobody helped they just pulled their pants down you know they pulled the pants down and i don't like to hold lines for [51:05] people that do pull the pants down then the problem there is that you cannot train dogs the modern way without the e-collar it's impossible if you have to go back to the old days like you did see on the video with slamming and that and it if you say for example to a guy that dig holes with a machine in the ground go back to the old days and you give him 10 shuffles and you say nine people will work with you [51:35] that guy says are you crazy we're gonna exaggerate a little bit more instead of 10 guys we want 100 guys and we let them work with a spoon how stupid is that so that's what they are doing by going back to the old days it is a shame that modern days in dog training are stopped and will be stopped by people that don't understand the whole problematic and they think that they i think their intentions are [52:05] that it'll be more humane but it won't be it won't be of course not it's not clear people are gonna do it anyway well and they're gonna find other ways to make the dog do that maybe the dog could really get hurt you know like the the the fences that come down for the for the callback the nets and we go back to the old days it's really cool and they obliged people to that so in belgium there is a movie going on [52:35] the last mohican and the movie name is the last ring supporter that's going on it's over and out holland's the same not long ago they still had 10 000 members i think that if they still have 4 000 it's a lot i think that's terrible it's unbelievable what happens that means that two countries that we're providing dogs it's over from yeah frowns the same drama is going on where they want to
[53:06] ban the e-collar they want to ban the e-collar the ring sport the bite sport it's also they lost more than 50 percent it's over the only thing that keeps them going is the hunters yes hunters have power yeah well and that also is diminishing because the generations don't hunt yeah but question for both of you guys yeah so since this is obviously taking a toll on the whole industry and now we're [53:32] looking into the future a little bit we're going man this is going to go really bad um do you have a solution a uh you know maybe something that you're thinking about or something in the works that you feel would kind of change the course well duck world is too divided try to you need try to put the noses in the same direction in the bite sports with different bite sports with igp with psa with [53:59] french ring there is mondial ring with kpv with hoochie hoochie they always invent new how do you want the noses to stay in the same direction julius says are set divide and control well they control us because we are so divided that the noses are not in the same direction and nobody accepts the leadership from nobody nobody and maybe and maybe you give us an idea there start something [54:29] new maybe we're gonna do it but we have big projects in our company in two years we have a little bit more time and maybe we're gonna start a new federation because uh-huh all the federations that i do see have a missing link you know the biggest growing sport for the moment in bite work is psa yeah they must do something right they must do something right [54:55] yeah what i miss is athletic jumps i miss it yeah i see what you're saying i miss it and what i miss is is finishing exercises destroying the exercise the conflict is more important than the exercise and i'm always interested in why is it a success well because everybody is in the suit if you see a training mm-hmm pet mama's smart kids tall kids little kids everybody's jumping around and trying to [55:27] destroy the dog everybody's active and that's good that's a very good thing and that's i think the biggest success of this game and it's a easy step in easy step in where igp is much more complicated trench ring you need top helpers it's so complicated you cannot believe and nobody wants to do the abcs to go to the x y z and people have a lot of fun in the training of psa because in psa it's like belgian ring
[55:57] it's like mongering you have all types of scenarios you michael me we are all little kids and we like to imagine our new game of the day yeah if i have a dog between you and me if i have a dog that i must train that carjacking that dog cannot stay my kennel i don't want a dog like that you must do it spontaneously we call that the zone defense i see what you're saying but they have fun and it's good [56:27] it's an imaginary world so they do a lot of things right so you must always copy why are they so strong for the moment and of course and that's the problem from all the growing brands and companies and also sports where will it stop and when will it stop and how will it stop you see what i mean and maybe we should invent or add more practical exercises the idea of the psa where they say we want to let [57:03] the dog smell to a scent wheel that is very realistic the smell of the day man trailing is very interesting so we have so much fun today with man trailing and you have a lot of space in united states where in europe you cannot do that right here every day we do man trailing with our dog it's so fun you cannot believe like a mania so and we started that all on that little scent wheel where the dog must [57:32] identify different scents coffee tea uh yeah yeah whatever so now he just smells the person yes and then so then if you want to see the sharpness of a dog you need to do what we call muzzle work and not muzzle work on a helper because that's again prey it must be muzzle work on civil people [57:59] i see what you're saying yeah different and now you you can try to do it so i'm missing logic things in a lot of new things and i like and i should like to be member but never ask us to help i'm always nice to see that if somebody is still we are not senile for the moment the brain okay we still are sponge maybe in 10 years [58:25] he's too old he doesn't know what he's saying anymore i i i hear that lately from your president of the united states he did say a word that was not very clean and then people said well he's an old man he's an old man he's an old man he's a misspoke what the heck is that again so but we are yeah and we are not senile so we are now ready to tell all our knowledge hey that's good you did ask us did we ask you for money to do this interview no no sir no
[58:55] no you see look to our eyes they are burning like cigarettes there's passion there's definitely passion there you do seem like very passionate people we are suffering when we see a video like there in in finland and then we can do things we can put our head over the table like how do you call that stress vogel the bird that put the head on the sand no there is a bird the ostrich we can do the ostrich politic and we do and we continue or we try to put all our power to defend what we do and how we [59:29] do there is an old man riser he's a little bit older than i am and people like him and people hate him but from riser you can never say that he was lying to people he was always speaking about positive reinforcement and negative reinforcement and that's part of it helmut was always preaching the wine and the water and you need guys like that that are doctors and have something in their brain and they [59:56] can speak are they love that's something else super smart guy he's not very loved because helmut riser he's hard he's hard he's hard but he's hard for himself yeah so we like people like that and these are people that can do something for the future they have knowledge they have we also can if they ask we should like to help but we have another agenda and that's our company and our company well we have [60:24] co-workers that we like very much and we do our best that we are another thing six weeks ago they did put us on the pressure like we were the criminals of the world yes we have to make a statement well we never did so good business as after that people don't understand what they are doing and everybody became better out of that deal except one person and that's yours and that is so yes because that guy [60:51] is really not a racist i can tell you from experience like he's my friend if he was if he was what everybody wants to paint them as one i wouldn't be his friend two he wouldn't be my friend you know um they just don't know i'm on a personal level but are you what's your um how you call it in heritage ethnicity what's your nationality usa you are you are well i'm south american i'm south american yes [61:24] you have a green hispanic i'm a citizen you're a citizen you pay taxes well yeah yeah i'm a minority here my wife is american so we do our best we will integrate we do everything we can and we are the age where we don't have to shut our mouth anymore and with that whole thing of yoris i still have a very bad taste in my mouth from what's happening because yoris knows the truth the person
[61:51] that was having the camera knows the truth and mesbeth from canada knows the truth and that's it and i will not say more but there were hidden agendas and i'm not happy with that and that must stop it must stop and the same thing with the thing going on in finland there is a hidden agenda what i did read was royal coming royal canine already did like this partnership and others will follow [62:21] i mean it's just one little one thing and then it's one thing after another they call that gorilla advertising they they put very itchy statements movies and then everybody's touched by that and then they start the whole thing and there's a whole animosity around and the business go fine and well it's a business model and it's not right and here again pita has a business model and if you look at [62:50] their videos they always ask money because the videos that those guys have that cost money look to that sniper that's a professional guy yeah that's that's thousands and thousands of euros and you know what in europe all those dog trainers are little hobby people hobby people and in the states they would be professionals and i all those little clubs they fight to each other we call it tribal fights and in america it's a business fight that's going on here [63:21] and the more much professionals can throw to each other the more they do it's unbelievable to see that it's very interesting my my father is an old school military guy and when i grew up and i was a kid i was between 10 and 15 and my dad said yes there is uh there is discrimination against women and he said [63:46] but the only way to combat discrimination is to just be better they're just wrong i mean and and that's an old school thing but he always told me if you want to if you want to be compete with the men you have to be better than the men that's it an example of that 2002 was my last competition i did in my life [64:12] 2002 that's quite 20 years ago was with my top dog zot which by the way was a psychopath and that's why i never did breed him it was only good under my control so it was the unicum but it was a crazy dog that we could control well but people like that and then they come for breeding and you know what one of the puppies that came out of that monster was the nicest dog ever not torque that
[64:42] is grandson flick from peter and flip became twice dvg champion germany you could and a good friend of us that does make the dog trophy for us he purchased the dog with his wife it's peter muller and his wife anke bochum they would buy that dog and they did become twice german dvg champ with that dog that dog was so sweet yeah yeah and he came out of a monster and then another son was black top yeah okay so you [65:13] see that the mixed bread because that's another thing that people don't know about us and certainly not about me i never never had a pure bread in my hands i refuse i refuse to have a dog with papers because that's where racism starts the molly noise the german shepherd the rottweiler that you must have papers and you must have papers to compete instead of who's the best yes right i'm gonna tell you something [65:38] i come out of africa in our team the best were playing and you know who was the best guy there was a black guy with the clump feet he had a clump foot you know a club foot yeah yeah yeah dude's nature his foot was a little bit like that he did put the balls in every corner and you know what he was the captain of the team that was a big man because he was better yes me with just like michael said you just have to be better yes and me and suck it up and do better and work harder you know [66:09] top dogs up they did push me out of competition i had to fight back with legal means to oblige the nvbk to accept me again and they had to pay i think thousand or two thousand euro every day that they did push me out of the competition after seven days i received the invitation mr bellon you are selected for the belgian championships because i was selected and i knew they're gonna do everything [66:37] they're gonna do everything to push me down but i knew one thing doc is trained so well i knew if one guy's gonna win it's zot and me and zot did perform and there we did not receive one point well you can see you can see when they uh when the crowd is cheering the judges are all sitting like this nobody they were they were not happy the crowd was happy because they knew what was happening and that was on [67:06] the pressure people don't understand what pressure is they did try everything everything to nail that dog that day and after that i was so disgusted because even the money that they gave me it was an empty envelope and that i'm not kidding and that's the day i said never again did not never never again and in despite of that i still love the nvdk sport because it makes us famous so i have a hate relationship
[67:35] i hate love relationship because it's such a rich game that it's too complicated for people you cannot explain that to people that just do bite is a bite no bite is not a bite there is more than just a bite it's the way the dog bites the way he goes to bite the way that he outs the way that he's confident the way that he looks to you the way that he takes the stick the way that you think he comes left and he comes right that's a dog but you know you cannot share your passion with people that don't want to listen [68:07] in my country they say how can you make a donkey drinking when he's not thirsty you guys say you can bring the horse to the water drink but you can't make him drink so the belgians have a lot of yeah we have a lot of good sentences yeah now the uh what you said uh it's already come up a couple of times since we've been talking is the word passion i feel like sometimes in society we're like [68:33] almost penalized if we show passion right like like you have to soften up what you say so that you don't upset some people like um you have to make a polish drama right i tell you this we normally are free and a little bit funny and but we are gonna watch everything we say this next school is gonna be much more coca-cola light we're gonna make sure what we must change what mr mesbeth created from canada [69:10] it's his right to do that and he has his background and his reasons like the lady has her reasons to take that movie so i but they did create something new and that something new is that mr mesbeth is a helper and if he in his career makes a dog not well biting some people one day will say well he does it on purpose [69:39] because people are like that and in the world where we live i will never touch somebody on a seminar never because i'm afraid that the me too story starts against me or from i'm not joking will so they make life so complicated that you cannot be yourself anymore the political correctness will paralyze this society and hey i have no hair people were always making jokes about my hair i did suck it up and i [70:10] became better than them in dog training now they say whoa that guy with no hair he's very good you see what i mean so i mean make you try to do your best and and and work harder that's all i can say to people and my father was a wise man you know i like to be yeah sounds like him i always have the freedom of the chester due to my foreign exotic accent not anymore over not anymore because they're gonna
[70:39] watch me for everything so anything he says they can use against him it's not nice and it it brings you in in a very difficult position how old are you will i'm 37 37 well for you it will be much harder than for michael and me because the whole world is changing with that over correctness it must be correct but not over correct and between you and me we can do jokes and by the way now and then a dirty [71:10] joke that's fun i mean if i cannot laugh with myself what a sad person i am exactly the world is full of humor but everybody doesn't have the same sense of humor and if you hurt a person's feelings you can you can lose everything and to go and that's terrible that's terrible he said those stupid words and he should not tell this because he's stupid because he's stupid yes [71:38] he's a big mouth right and he's now suffering for that and that's good there's consequences but there is a moment where the consequences should not be death penalty well it's interesting because we have all the people from the school read the talent code and in the talent code tell a little yeah it's a good book a little a little uh piece about a guy who makes a flight simulator because yes pilots were getting [72:07] caught in the rain and they were cracking yeah and one mistake and they're dead one mistake and they're dead but if you are making one mistake and you're dead you're not learning anything yeah so that makes perfect sense you're dead means there's no chance for learning we're teachers yeah what what michael tries to tell is that when the planes go down in a simulation you divide it because it's a simulator and next [72:38] time you try to be better in that very critical moment until there is no more problems in the simulator learn how to do it the consequences and and michael and i at the end we have dog trainers and dog trainers we have consequences for doing and consequences for not doing and we implement that in our lives we implement that in our private lives we implement that and people that know it for example now we have a [73:05] little guy that works with us since one month it's the son of uh mrs barbieri victor so we have him as uh how do you call that in intern intern intern yeah intern so and and and now he does see the real thing how he brush dogs how he walk dogs and he always said you know what michael bart i'm amazed that you guys quite never trained yeah he's like you're always brushing the dogs and running them and running
[73:32] them and he said well feeding them and and what do i see he said you guys quite never trained but they're very well trained yeah because most people they have time now and they go train one hour with the poor animal and the poor animal has no gasoline to work for one minute but they continue for one hour and they have gasoline for one minute so they push the car the dog for 59 minutes michael and i we are [74:03] gasoline trainers we make gasoline hope hope and one day is hope well it's like victor has a new dog and i said to victor he said what must i do what should i start training i said just take her for a walk every day just go walk around the property bicycle just bike bike with her click clicker trainer every time they're learning something yeah yeah and we're learning well dog training is about two hours [74:39] the dog where from the two hours it's maybe five minutes training and all the rest is running brushing it's a lifestyle it's coming out of the crate it's going back in the crate it's brushing them and pushing them around learning to ride in the car going into the peeing in town yeah yeah what we do see a lot is putting their collars on and making them look at you and putting the clothes off we see a lot of trick training or whatever training with dogs and then we see that [75:08] the dog has so long nails you don't impress me with a dog or you see that the dog is not brushed you don't impress me with a dog you know we are from the old generation we wake up the first thing we do is we make up our bed can you believe that we have money enough to pay people to make our bed that's good stuff i do i don't have money i don't have that kind of money i mean it's it's a lifestyle and it's [75:35] our little things you know and i mean and it's like the first thing you do when you wake up the last thing you do before you go to bed you know that that's how much of a lifestyle it is you have to be very conscious about it yeah yeah and clean up the stuff you put it there clean it up always clean up the dog pose clean it up if you don't clean it up the second pool if you don't clean it up it's a whole pack of poop no go and then there is flies and so on and so on it's a lifestyle and and that's very
[76:07] interesting to see that we have fun with that young man and it's fun because if it's no fun we don't do this right and it's learning to speak learning right because obviously people think i'm going to come i'm going to intern with michael and bart we're going to train all day and i think yeah they train about five minutes and there's a lot of other things we do but it's not you know yeah that's what that's what happens with uh a lot of people when they think [76:38] of internship they're like hey man can can i do an internship and they're expecting like a full you know one-on-one dedicated school and you're like no dude you we're with them all day we're with them all day and now we're doing something for example lately that dog learned to not like to come after you walk dog learned i don't want to go back in the kennel right right then we showed with slow [77:04] negative reinforcement the dog did fly to him with the ears open yeah he was looking just is it so easy yeah yeah you the dog knows everything but the dog learned to escape and to not do and to fake being unhappy and then we come away with that and now with clear rules and she knows exactly you can touch her with your finger 100 yards away she did fly to him full of passion it was beautiful and even [77:34] when he was near the kennel he was calling her back just to give her the ball you know i'm near the kennel yeah that's normally when you think you're gonna go in but if you come i just give you the ball we go yeah and that makes that makes sense all that started with that video where our mission is to teach a politic palatable system where the dog obeys on cue but with heart and soul and we don't want to [78:07] implement that but what i should like to say is that we have been asked by european armies and we must shut down mouth which armies to implement the system for them because they have a big problem and the big problem is they have army dogs and the army dog does recently not fall under the weapon law but under the animal welfare law so they must have systems and i must explain what they do and how they do [78:37] and we told them well as army there is two laws that you must respect with the animal welfare law and then there is the convention of geneva where you must have respect for your enemy even i just speak about armies so there is two laws and the geneva law is higher evaluated than the animal welfare law that means that if a dog from the army bites a soldier from the opposite army you must with whatever means
[79:09] stop that action immediately otherwise you can go for the court tribunal for being cruel towards your enemy because you did not out that dog and that's why michael and i we have big problems when we see videos in the united states where you see low enforcement by not controlling the dog on the out and i don't know how they come away with that and we know exactly the big problem is you cannot train [79:35] on that scenario because nobody is stupid enough to give a life fight nobody and you cannot train on that situation and then there is two situations that will happen you have that nice dog that will not bite and then you have a problem or you have that dog that will bite and that tastes blood and say whoa no i'm not gonna out here and therefore that dog you need in the convention of geneva you are allowed to [80:04] inflict pain to make him out but because we train him well it's a tactile command to make him out and it's not a pain stimulus and from and so so we learn those armies with bulletproof systems that are politic palatable and that they can continue having war dogs and that's important and then another thing is imagine they have a army that moves and the dogs are only trained with positive reinforcement what [80:34] the animal welfare wants now that dog will make a mistake and then you must give the implementation of the what we call negative correction stop the game and no food today and you must tell the general general we must stop the military action because my dog is not under control and tomorrow we can continue the military action if i'm the general i kick your ass i tell you that so when the dog is trained to understand negative reinforcement and the [81:05] eventual correction the correction comes clear as crystal clear the dog goes out of mistake and continues with heart and soul in the job and the military action continues and the generals are looking to you like wow that's the whole thing we need yes so and that's our job so make it so that the risk is scenario that is bulletproof but you must train the dogs for that day [81:32] you must learn them that language we call that the abc's if you don't learn abc's which is ne popo you do popo and a it's like people train a dog with for example i just say something in electronic color and the correction come with the bamboo stick that doesn't work because the bamboo is a new language if you train him in electronic you correct him in electronics
[81:58] if you trade with the bamboo you correct him in the bamboo it's easy like that even a dog mask you know if you train him with a leash you correct yes yes and people always train in one language and switch to another and for the corrections they go to another language well we get a lot we get a lot of that at martin system especially when i used to answer the phones at martin system and people would say oh am i speaking with michael and you know now it's time for me to get an e-call and my dog's misbehaving yes [82:26] yeah um and i you know the funny thing about that too is like i i've seen purely positive trainers lose their patience and like because that's what happens they're like oh everything's great everything's great uh you know hot dogs hot dogs cheese cheese but when they have that gentle leader the head harness i mean they'll lose their patience because now and i've heard of this i've had people that have worked for purely positive trainers call me and say well like they're cranking the dogs on the head [82:56] harness which is terrible for the dog's spine that's that's no anyway i think it is you know and that's the big problem in the universe of dog training there is different gurus different systems i would never use that but i don't criticize anyone who does if they want to use it if it works for them good it's so hard you know to to have the magic the magic stick to bring all the people together dog people [83:24] and go for systems where everybody accepts everybody it's not easy so we accept that people do it another way and as long it works for them as long as we train dogs we never were on the seats never on the siege from animal welfare and every time seminars in the old day were announced and they knew exactly that we did train with pinch collar choke collar with clicker with ball with everything and we always [83:54] tried to make harmony and we always i i can remember one day and it was in berlin and i will not name again a while ago and i was just dating michael and one of our friends and i'm not naming is a wheelchair gentleman and he had a dog the malinois from a very strong bloodline and he did let that dog grow too
[84:21] high he was too strong so if you wanted to help the gentleman by pushing his wheelchair the dog was very possessive and they tried to bite everybody i remember that so then we as the how should i say the seminarist of the day we must take a decision or we send that young man home and say you must get rid of the dog you must kill the dog and you must give it away or you be professional and we say we're going [84:51] to cure that dog today today and we did cure that dog if they film that we have problems with animal welfare but that gentleman thanks us every day for what we did there and he could control that dog and he still has that dog and that dog does beautiful work beautiful you see what i mean but that's what people never want to see the results the thing you do and they're the nail you and that's why michael and [85:19] i we exaggerate we write down no videos no videos no photos yeah but it's only for me no no videos for nobody because one day it bites in your tail and i don't like people to bite in my tail so yeah i mean what's that mean well oh where was that it is unbelievable that people because we could have used that gentleman as an advertising tool of [85:51] look how sweet and that a fee and ta-ta-ta we did not do that neither because we know that that dog was not mr sweet okay and but i mean sometimes you must cure the problem and you must handle it and the apostles of morality they're always at the side and they don't have pity with that gentleman that is in the wheelchair right they have pity with the dog that wants to bite everybody and for and he wants to [86:19] keep his dog three seconds we showed the dog who was the boss it's just in three seconds because that dog just needed the boss yeah and it was probably misunderstanding on the dog's side too like probably not clear communication or maybe inability to and then you just stepped in and said hey guys here's how here's how it is here's how it is dog person here's how it goes right yeah for him to get a [86:46] new dog and start from zero he already has enough on his plate you know yeah i mean yeah it's so hard so sometimes so if i looked that video from finland i'd mercy with that professional because that gentleman that was on the field well he has been booby trapped you cannot believe and he will bleed for that and we've had some friends also be booby trapped oh yeah yeah so bad yeah supposedly were
[87:16] their friends yeah yeah so it is it is so bad and they doctor things and we see videos you know what one of our preferred sentences the dog bites the cat scratches and the horse kicks and that's what you must know yeah but all dogs are nice come on wake up now they're animals yes and the more you are in the profession the more you become schizophrenic because me i'm very careful with dogs people always [87:45] think that i'm not but i am because i did see the biggest accidents of the world you cannot believe you cannot believe so sometimes i'm starting sweating when i see people with their faces oh no that's don't do that we've had a lot of experiences i mean i can only imagine i i've i myself uh have seen some things that definitely made me cautious uh you know for for good you know like that [88:14] i think the the younger the people that are kind of new at this they don't see these things like michael said and so they you know they don't realize how how bad it can get it's not until you start to get some experiences that's some of these dogs that you finally go man i need to be careful i i was lucky that time and i was lucky that time and i need to now be careful because i've seen how bad it can be with some dogs yeah i'm gonna tell you an anecdote i think it's about 20 years ago [88:45] because i was a devil as a young guy i still have fire but it's coming down and i'm i was in top shape and i was running about around the fort where michael and i live in belgium we have a loop around the fort it's about two kilometers 200 which is about one mile 200 and i'm running and then there is a golden no it's not a golden receive irish setter i'll never forget it and he's running behind me and [89:16] and really napping and i stopped and i looked to the owner he does not do he's nice he does nothing i say okay so i'm shutting my mouth because i know better yeah and i run again and the dog again and very aggressive i grabbed the dog and i jumped with the dog in the water and i put him on the water for three seconds and then i let him go the next day i was running again and that lady saw me and the [89:46] dog saw me he met in the other direction both of them no oh yeah and you know they always say my dog is nice he's not nice the same the same never trust never trust the owner and i had the top dog that dog was so well trained you cannot believe and he was a good fighter he loved fighting with other dogs and i if i'm out with my dog i'm out and other dogs come to my dog as a leader down and i go immediately
[90:17] in front of the dog yeah but my dog is nice they scream to me as you know and then they call the name looky looky looky and then you see the hair of the dog already coming up and growling and then i'm thinking myself okay then i give the dog the secret command he nailed that dog for two seconds and then i whistle back it comes back and my dog was so happy that dog i never had problems again so i warn people [90:45] one time they don't listen they must pay the consequence because they have dangerous little dogs and they don't see that they're really down yeah we're a little bit like that with victor we warn him one time and then with people also you work for us yes we say tomorrow it's tomorrow right don't do it the day after tomorrow because there is a bomb if it's eight o'clock it's eight o'clock [91:11] be dead or be here at eight yeah you know what i mean we have a fantastic team in martin system fantastic team but they were a little bit used to do it tomorrow and the day after tomorrow and then they were always amazed that when we said tomorrow we were there at five o'clock in the morning and now when they went home we were still there until nine o'clock in the evening when we say it's done it will be done and we changed that mentality around and now they're all like that oh yeah [91:41] it's the best team in the world see that that's awesome i'll you have to do what you say you're gonna do and and it goes back to being passionate about what you do yes and push and push and don't sit in your comfortable seat and give orders to people in the front lines show the example if i i like clean toilets i clean them myself i've no problem with that but i don't want to see a dirty toilet i tell you [92:07] that then the hell is going off you go to the toilet you clean it up i go to the toilet i clean it up even on the highway i do that i must not clean i do it because it's my education that i received from my parents i do good ethics well if everybody does that life is easy it's little things little things eight well it was you i think only now you did manage to grab us the longest in timing [92:37] and i think that you had the people on the floor they were dancing you were good dish okay and the job from the district is to make sure that people are dancing it's not playing the music you like playing the music that makes people dance we touched very delicate topics we sure did we did put the neck in the front line they will shoot there is always people shooting and well we are adult people but
[93:08] people must be sure of one thing we mean it well that's 100 we mean it well even if our language is sometimes rough and we like after all we like the harmony model like and that's why we try always to massage deals until the noses are in the same direction okay and well i fail and then we feel like we failed we really feel like we failed you know i really appreciate the honesty and uh yeah i mean [93:37] we definitely touched on some very sensitive things and uh just like you said there are going to be people that are not going to agree with some of the things you said but it's not a big deal and you guys were very honest very frank and i think that's what we need more of you know we need more of that frankness and that honesty whether somebody likes it or not if you don't like it just don't listen to it move on but everybody's just like what we talked about everybody's so politically correct i want to [94:05] hurt anybody's feelings so uh thank you guys for this awesome awesome interview it's great catching up with you guys again and then there will come a cat out of the back and the cat out of the back is martin system is launching new products at the end of the month and there we did speak to somebody else that will have the prime time we do the same thing like here but that's just more technical stuff about [94:36] the ecore okay big announcement big announcement that's awesome and the cat is out of the the back and we will do it and the first launch will be here at the school awesome well everybody stay tuned well we will go five minutes live where nobody does see nobody everybody will have a mask and but five minutes that people can well we like that our students have their discretion sometimes there [95:07] is people that nobody should know they are here and sometimes yeah so we respect that special jobs special job creation army it's gonna be a fantastic school here yeah really gonna be great looking forward to that announcement great great it's a great you know another thing i will if we would do this every day mike and i had no fire it was i think three four months ago that we had a podcast and what you see it was spontaneous there was [95:39] animosity we did not avoid itchy problems we did not fight we i mean but if you do this every day it becomes soft you know it becomes too soft to dilute it yes dilute it so that's what we always try to tell people don't do things too much victor that's your word for the day dilute it well thank you guys
[96:06] word of the day every day that's part of his internship that's awesome well thank you guys very much i appreciate it one quick question before we end this um do you guys mind if i if i save this and post it as a post or do you want to just end it right here no no you can save it and post it post it as a post but no cuts no no cut got it no edits just just as it is from beginning to end yeah like we said at the [96:34] beginning michael and i we never go again for interviews where people can cut and paste because we were lucky you can't be the wrong side i understand people give us a question we don't like which is possible we will say please another question we have no problem with the bad question but we must it's not a bad question we don't want to answer right understand there is private things on [97:01] which we will say next question please and no problem but we like to be spontaneous okay perfect so you have my word i'm not gonna edit this at all it's gonna be from beginning to end are you gonna know it so i was gonna put it on uh instagram facebook i was gonna put it on youtube and uh my podcast all from the beginning to the end is that cool with you guys awesome it's a must [97:28] thank you all so much thank you very much and uh you guys have a good evening bye bye take care bye bye DOGTRAININGISMYPASSION FULL July 2021- Michael & Bart Bellon Full Interview - DOGTRAININGISMYPASSION - William Garrido