E321: 트레이시 맥레넌(Tracey McLennan) - "프레이 드라이브(Prey Drive) 연구하기"

Now, knowing, now as a professional, knowing what I know now, I would be far too scared to bring that puppy home with me again. So he was the biggest puppy. And he would greet you by dragging you around by the trouser, like, or completely ignoring you. He didn't like to be picked up. He didn't like to be held or touched. He, I mean, he bullied the other puppies in the litter. He wouldn't take a telling from his mum, even at five weeks old, when the mum tried to stop him. He wouldn't listen to hers. Now, I would never bring home a dog like that. But anyway, I didn't know anything about dogs. So I brought him home with me and things were quite difficult from outset. But when he became, when he was an adolescent, what got me into dog training was when he was an adolescent, he became very aggressive towards other dogs. He very badly injured another dog. And at that point, I knew that, well, we needed help. And the problem I had, we were going to a dog training club at the time. But they said, well, we can't help you with this. They gave me great, they gave me excellent advice about managing it so that he wasn't at risk to other people's dogs. But they said, well, he will never get over this. That's your dog now. Just keep, just keep away from other dogs for the rest of his life. And you cannot ever have, you can't, I had another bull mastiff, I had a younger one at the time as well. And they said, you'll never be able to have another dog in the house. You're lucky you've got, you can have two, but you will never have another dog. And you must always keep him away from other people's dogs. That's welcome to your new life. And I tried a few different dog professionals to help. But people were very obvious, understandably, he was so large, people were very reluctant to help. And eventually, I started learning more and more. I started going, reading online as much as I could. I started learning as much as I could about dog training. I went off, I learned about Tellington T-Touch, which I thought sounded just too eerie fairy to help. But it did help. And I went off, I trained as a practitioner. And then, by then, my dog, this dog was, he was actually pretty good with other dogs by then. And so then I could go off and do, I did a degree in canine behaviour and training. And he had to be pretty good by then because I had to take him to college with me. Because we didn't, the video technology that we've got now that lets us just use our phone to video. I mean, you couldn't do that then. In 2004 or 5, when I started that course, you couldn't do that.

So we were therefore obliged to all take our dogs to college to do tests. And we were there for practical weekends and things. And we all had our dogs with us. And so that was really what got me into dog training was having an apparently unsolvable problem. Anyway, it was fine because he became, actually, of all the dogs I've lived with, he was the best with other dogs by quite a long way. None of my others have shown the amount of care and, you know, desire to be with other dogs that he had. The others have all been pretty and different, particularly to stranger dogs. But he loved to meet new dogs. He was happy to have them in the house. And he was just incredible. That was an unsolvable problem. That's quite a transformation to go from, you know, kind of one extreme to the other. Absolutely. It was. I actually wrote a book about him because it was such a big transformation. And just to try and give people a bit of hope if they were also having the same experience, because it felt hopeless to me. And the people I was speaking to, the experts that I spoke to also told me it was hopeless. And that was the consistent message that I was getting was that there was no chance that this issue was in any way recoverable. But anyway, it turned out, luckily, that it was. Yeah. So what led you to kind of pursue prey drive as kind of like a special interest in particular? Can you share that? Yes, I absolutely. Well, it was partly my bull mast of Cal Gackus. When he was quite young, he would chase deer for long distances. You know, he would give up. He wasn't fast enough to get to a deer, but he would. So he would give up when he got quite far away. He would sometimes catch rabbits and kill them and eat them. He once or twice, if a fledgling bird fluttered out of a bush, he would grab it and swallow it. I mean, it was. And this was very distressing to me because one of the reasons. Understandably. One of the reasons I'd chosen that particular breed is because they're supposed to have no prey drive. And I really didn't want a dog that would do things like that. That was one of my criteria. And so I chose a breed. They're supposed to be a bit laid back about all of that sort of thing. Not all that interested in prey. And although they may guard your house and might not be welcoming to strangers in the home. Although Cal Gackus was absolutely fine with strangers coming into my home. You know, typically you would expect them to be fairly calm and easy going away from home. That wasn't my experience at all. So I and that initially that was all very upsetting.

It became completely overshadowed by his aggression towards other dogs. But that was my initial. That was what he was like. And I found that once I'd done my T-Touch training and I'd gone off to college and we got very into dog training. All of these problems disappeared. He stopped. We would play a game where he would run towards rabbits and he would slow down and wait for me to call him back. And the same with deer. If he saw a deer and he would maybe run for a couple of steps and when I called him he would come straight back. He was absolutely excellent. And I felt like a proper expert. I was like, I totally know what I'm doing here. Look at this. No, it's not even a very trainable breed. And look at what my dog can do. I am an expert. So I got I was competing at that stage and he'll work to music with my bull mastiffs. And there were a less than ideal breed. Calgakis was fantastic. If I wanted him to do a demonstration for people, he was brilliant. And if I wanted him to in college tests, he was truly excellent. I got very good marks in my degree. We had to do we did in first year. I taught him to do gundog work because I had friends with working setters and I taught him to do gundog work. They told me what to do. And in second year, we did a four minute. He worked a music routine. He was excellent. But the competition environment he didn't like. There was something about it he didn't like and he would never really join in. And my younger bull mastiff, while she'd been quite successful and had had had a win very early on, she then became very unwell. And we couldn't, I couldn't compete with her anymore. So I wanted a dog that I could continue this heel work to music journey with. So I went and so I got this collie cross puppy from one of the large UK dog rescues. And he was like, this is going to be amazing. If I can train these bull mastiffs to the standard I trained them to, this collie cross is he's going to be a dodo. I mean, he's half a border collie. Well, he wasn't quite, but he was mostly collie of various sorts. I was like, this is just going to be amazing. So I brought this puppy home and initially everything was great. I trained him a recall in the same way as I trained Calgakis and he had an amazing recall. So I trained the puppy the same way. Everything was going great until he got to be about 10 or 11 months old and he started disappearing, properly running off, sometimes four hours. At a time. I mean, I had to once phone my boss at work. I was working part time in IT at the time.

I once had to phone my boss and say, Debbie, I need to take the morning, at least the morning off, possibly the whole day. I don't know. I can't find Cullen and I don't know where he is and I don't know when I'll be in work. And she said, that's no bother, Tracy. Come in when you find your dog. Good bosses. Oh, yes. I had excellent bosses in that job. It was great. And so eventually I found Cullen and this happened more than once. I knew that he was interested in prey. He would chase things if he saw them. So I knew there was an interest in prey was causing this disappearing. But nothing that I was doing was helping. And I didn't understand it. And by then, by then, I was a professional dog trainer. I volunteered my skills to charities and good causes because I had a good job and I didn't, you know, I wasn't really interested in doing it to make money. I just wanted to share my knowledge. And I worked with charities and good causes. And I also knew lots and lots of other dog professionals by then. I knew loads of people. I couldn't find any help. And the Internet was much more widely used. Cullen was born in 2007. So social media by then had started up. I had lots more access. I could not find help with this dog. I would explain to people what was happening. He just disappears all of a sudden. I can be walking along with him. And then he just takes off and he might be going for hours. And the consensus then was, well, he's clearly going away and chasing things. So you just need to keep him on a long line and only let him off in securely fenced areas. So that just wasn't very satisfactory for me. I'm kind of listening. But I want to understand what is happening. I want to understand why I could teach my other dog who was killing and eating wildlife. Why could I teach him to stop doing that? And I cannot get through to this dog who is much more trainable, much more biddable, much more interested in me. Why can't I get this dog? Why can't I do it? What is going on here? And that, when I started looking into it and I started, I did lots of training that didn't go anywhere. I spent at one point about 18 months teaching a really nice chase protocol where the dogs learn that they will always check to chase a favorite toy if you give them the cue. And it was a lovely protocol. I worked all the way through. He could do this amazing tricks with toys and ignoring even things with rabbit skin attached to them. He could ignore that sort of movement. Didn't help at all with the actual problem. And the last chapter of the book suggested a very aversive experience.

If you get to here and your dog is still a problem, then you need, then you have to introduce aversives because there's some dogs are just so hard that there's no, there is no other way. And I got to that and I said, I'm not doing, I am not doing that to Kulin because it, I'm just not doing it. It's not how I train. And I also think that there's something I don't understand here. There's something here that I don't understand. And that is why I am continuing to have the problem. And perhaps this protocol, while it looks very good, is just not right for Kulin, which is exactly what turned out to be the case. And that's what got me into having a real interest in it. And then what solidified it into working full time in it was I got made redundant from my job, which was annoying because I loved it. And we had a long lead time. It was a very long lead time into getting made redundant. And I had said to all of my colleagues, well, I don't know what life is going to look like next, but I am not giving up being a computer programmer because I love doing that sort of work. I'm not giving that up. What I'm going to do is I'm going to learn how to write websites because I was working on a, it was a very old fashioned system. It was an old mainframe system I'd been working on. So I learned how to do web development. That's what I'm going to do. And I'm going to do online dog training because lots of people are doing it. I got made redundant just before COVID started, like a month or two before we were in lockdown in the UK. But even then I'd said people are doing online dog training and that is what I'm going to do. And I will just learn how to write a website and write an online learning platform. I'll be able to do all of that. And that will keep my, that will give me that outlet for doing that work that I love. But I can also then, instead of teaching people about an old IT system, which is what I kind of used to do, I can't, as part of my job, I'll teach people about how to help their dogs. And I kind of had it in my head that I would focus a little bit on reactivity and aggression because I've got a lot of experience in that. And also look at doing a prey drive. And so during all of that, I decided as well that I'd go back to university and I'd do a master's degree and that then I could focus on looking at prey drive and understanding it more. And I also had very unexpectedly the opportunity to get this Cocker Spaniel puppy, which had been my plan down the line. Once I'd finished my degree, I planned to get this Cocker Spaniel puppy, but not then.

But I had an opportunity to have a puppy from a really great litter. And I decided that I wasn't going to turn it down, even though the timing was terrible. And so I spoke to the breeder, who's a friend of mine, and I explained to her what I was looking for, because I said, I just want a dog that's a lot like Cullen, loves to use their nose and really loves to hunt. That's what I want. That's that's what I want. Because my collie cross, it turned out that what he wanted to do most of all was follow his note, follow wildlife scent. And that and I eventually I came to love it. I loved what he did. And so I wanted a dog that would be similar, which is why I was really looking for a Cocker Spaniel. And although the breed at the mating, the puppies that I got one of, the breeding was kind of planned to make to get puppies that wouldn't have that sort of drive or not an enormous amount of it. Anyway, one of the puppies did. And so the breeder said, you need to have this. This is your puppy, Tracy. You need to have her. And absolutely from from eight weeks old, she was hunting away in my arms. And she is absolutely everything that I had hoped she would be. So it was very unexpected. But that that all helped because I could study. I could be studying at college. And at the same time, I could be going through the process with a young dog again, because Cooley was quite old by then. And the issues I'd had with him were resolved. But learning again with a with a young dog, what this sort of thing is is like and going back over it all again. It was such a great opportunity. And so that was what made me decide that I would focus entirely on working on prey drive was all of that all kind of came together perfectly like that. And that was what made me do it. So I want to I mean, you kind of described it a little bit here in different bits and pieces. But when we're talking about prey drive, can you can you give me kind of a working definition or kind of describe what it looks like? What is what is this thing? It's the prey drive. Yeah, it's a bit of an umbrella term. And you would never find it in the scientific literature because the scientists back away from talking about drive because it's hard to measure. But really, prey drive, the phrase prey drive describes an interest in doing something with with prey. So the dogs may there's there are lots of things that dogs may want to do with prey. Calgack is my master wanted to eat it. And Cooley, my caulicross, he just wanted to follow the scent.

And he would if he got close to a rabbit or a deer, which he could do because he was very fast when he was young, he would just stand still and wait until they went away. He had no interest in the actual doing anything at all with the actual animal. For him, it was just all about getting to to the source of the odor. That was really his his interest. So what the dogs might want to do with the prey will differ from dog to dog enormously. But it's really about a drive to do something that's linked, a desire to do something that's linked to prey. I describe it like that. The strength of the dog's desire to do whatever it is they want to do with prey. And sometimes people when I was researching for my for my master's degree, I did get some fairly strongly negative feedback about about describing it in that way. Because some people said, well, but you can't call you can't call that prey drive because that's hunt drive or that's chase drive or that's herd drive. Now, to me, these are all just part of prey drive. To me, I like it to be simple and to me it's simpler if I if I just describe everything that would be to do with prey or a prey substitute as prey drive. So that is that is how I that's how I describe it. There's no unofficial definition. I mean, it doesn't exist in the scientific literature. They would call it predatory behavior. But even in the scientific literature, there is not a single definition of predatory behavior for dogs. So there's not even an official definition in the scientific literature either. So I feel I feel entirely comfortable with how I describe it. Other people differ. And I have had people send me emails and clearly be quite annoyed. No, no, no. You're wrong. That's not how it is. But actually, I think we can all be right because there is no there is no official definition. So if it if it's comfortable for somebody else to just to split it up and say, well, this bit's hunt drive and this bit's chase drive. That is, you know, that's just as correct as me or just as wrong as me. Fair enough. After all, the important thing is just knowing what we're talking about when we're talking about it. Right. Which. Yes. And I often do ask people because I know there are real differences. So I often say, what what do you mean by prey drive? Because I know what I mean. What here's what I mean by it. What do you mean? Yeah. I know that you kind of talked about kind of very different breeds in there as you kind of shared your story. So can you talk about just generally kind of the role that genetics plays in prey drive? Yes.

So it definitely plays a role because we can reliably often predict what a dog's prey drive preferences will be based on breed. That's why I could say, well, I'm going to get a working bread, cock or spaniel. And it'd be fairly likely that they would have the sorts of traits that I was looking for. And that's that's why we can see if somebody says to me, oh, my dog is really strange. When I take the children to school, he crouches down really low whenever a car comes past and then he leaps up and tries to chase it. And I say, oh, do you have a border collie? And I say, how could you possibly know that? Are you psychic? And of course, I'm not psychic. I just understand that that's a really common thing that border collies will do. And so obviously there are genetics really matter in how the dogs express their prey drive. Genetics are very, very important, but they're not the whole story. So the environment also really matters and learning really matters. The prey drive is very subject to learning, although we sometimes think it's not. It very much is. And even with wild predators, they have to really learn how to control themselves and contain themselves. And they can't just be rushing out at the first sight of a rabbit, because if they do that, they will probably starve to death. So it's very subject to learning. And even in dogs, as they are mature, they will still alter their behavior based on learning. So it's not entirely genetic. Although in my experience, it's often thought of as being almost instinctive to the point that the dog has no control and it can never be changed. That's often how I hear it being talked about. But actually, it changes all the time based on experience and based on learning. And even so a friend of mine many years ago now, she had this cocker spaniel and he we used to do. He worked music training together and she did it because of this dog. He would not leave her side on walks. All he wanted to do was have her do tricks with him. That was it. He'd never leave her. He didn't like mud. He didn't like rain. Didn't like dead things. He was a very lucky dog because he'd nearly gone to live with a gamekeeper. And I'm not convinced that would have been a good pairing. Anyway, she moved. At one stage during his life, she moved to somewhere much more rural with a much more dense rabbit population. And this dog started running off and catching and killing rabbits. And he was he wasn't a young dog. I mean, he was five or six when they made this move. So it wasn't that he was going through adolescence and this was just emerging. Sometimes that can have an impact.

This was an ad fully adult dog with very predictable behavior towards prey. And it completely changed when his when his living environment changed. He completely changed. So there is a strong genetic component, but there's also a very strong learning component, which is good news. Right. Because then you can do something about it. Super important when we want to do some training. Absolutely. Otherwise, I, you know, I would have to do a different job. So selectively breeding specifically for prey drive seems like it would definitely come with pros and cons. And I think we've talked quite a bit about some of the cons. But I think the pro side is like the sports dog stuff. Right. Can you just talk a little bit about, you know, why we want it and the problems it can cause kind of weighing some of those pros and cons? Yeah. So we often want it because it makes dogs perform better at sports. So that's why, you know, gun dogs are often very good at nose work sports because the part of what they are all pretty much all bred to do is use their nose. To a greater or lesser extent, you'd expect Spaniels to use their nose more, but even Labradors, because they might well be sent a long, long distance for a retrieve and they might have to hunt around a little bit until they find it. So even retrieving breeds like Labradors will be expected to have a good nose on them. So if you want to be doing sports that involve using their nose, then those dogs are perfect for you, really, because you're halfway there already. They've got the desire. And the dogs that are bred whose prey drive, the traits they've been bred to do would cause them to want to move fast, often good for agility and fly ball. And of course, some dogs are bred for their ability to bite and hold on. And so they are often utilised in sports that involve biting and holding on. So, yeah, there's lots and lots of reasons why prey drive continues to be bred into dogs. And of course, plenty of them are still working dogs. Plenty of them are being bred because they are bred by a farmer or a gamekeeper or somebody who wants them to work at the original dog. Nine times out of ten, if I say to the person with the crouching collie at the side of the road, where did you get your collie from? They will say to me, came from a farm. The farmer bred a litter of puppies because he wanted another one to bring on to work his sheep. And he sold the rest of them to whoever wanted a puppy. And that is nine times out of ten. When I speak to people about those dogs, that's where they've that is where they've come from is a farmer.

And similarly with the with the Spaniels and Labradors, lots of them are being bred to do the job that they were originally bred to do. And because they tend to be to have more drive and more determination, because that's part of it, isn't it? You're not just breeding them for an interest. You're breeding them for an intense interest. The dogs are being bred to carry on almost no matter what in the face of often painful experiences, frightening experiences. You know, that is what they're being bred to do. So if you want to do sports, that's great. That sort of determination will help you succeed more than a dog who would see like the poodle who lives near me. If he puts his nose into a bush, which I think he did once when he was a puppy and a thorn got stuck in his nose. He he just stays on the path. Now, he never goes in. Never going to do that again. Yeah, I'm never doing that again. And that really hurt. I'm never going to do that again. So those dogs are much more difficult to do any sort of sport with because if anything goes wrong at all, it's the it's harder for them. They're so sensitive and of course can work towards doing dog sports with them. But it's but you've got a different journey than somebody who's got the dog who sticks their nose in the bush and gets a thorn in it. And I don't care. I'm putting my whole body in this bush. Right. Right. So what do we actually do about it if the prey drive that we're seeing is problematic? Yeah, it is often problematic out in the world. It's very often problematic. So there are a few things to do. So the very first thing is get very good at observing the dog and the environment, the weather. However, all of these things play into it. Because that was my big problem with Kulin was it seemed so unpredictable. What he was doing seemed so unpredictable because he would if a deer had crossed the path that we were on the day before, I might not see him for three hours. And of course, how can I tell if a deer has crossed the path three hours before the day before? I can't tell. I don't know. So getting very good observation and understanding what the dog's tails are, what was going on. Wildlife is not as also wildlife is not as unpredictable as it may first seem, as I have discovered in this journey. Secondly, you can often know where you can often quite reliably tell where your dog is going to disappear. Not 100 percent. The seasons change the behavior of the wildlife. And if you walk somewhere where trees might be felled, which I do, that changes the behavior of the wildlife as well. But it is more predictable than it first appears.

So observations are really key. Management, good management is also key because the last thing that you want is for your dog to just be going off and independently doing their thing with prey without you there. Because that just tends to exacerbate the problem. You need to figure out what you can offer as a meaningful alternative. I talked about Kulin and how chasing things was not a meaningful alternative at all for him. That was just a bit of a disaster, really. But it's figuring out what the dog wants so that you can then offer meaningful alternatives. Teach them some self-control and some stillness is very important. They do need to learn that. And also your usual incompatible behaviors like a recall. It's not the most important thing, but certainly those things are part of what I would do and recommend that other people do with high prey drive dogs. Awesome. So you're offering a webinar for FDSA on all of this on prey drive on July 20th at 3 p.m. Pacific time. Can you talk just a little bit about what you'll cover in the webinar and maybe who should consider signing up? Yes, absolutely. So I will go into lots more detail about the different parts of prey drive and what each of them looks like. Because that understanding is really key. I will talk a little bit about my research because that gave me some really great insights that I want to share. I'm going to talk just a little bit about the differences between prey drive and reactivity. Because in my experience, it's very easy for them to get mixed up. And sometimes that can send you a bit down a path that's not so helpful. I will talk about the links between prey drive and welfare for dogs and people, but mostly for dogs. I'm going to discuss how to set up robust management that doesn't make the problem worse. Because some management solutions actually worsen the problem. And that can make it harder to resolve. And I'm going to finish up by talking about ways that you can join your dog, work with their prey drive, and then become a better partner for the dog. Because that was what I had to learn to do with Kulin. How can I, and Calgakis, it was just easier with Calgakis. But with Kulin, how can I become a better partner for you on walks so that I am relevant to this walk? Because that was the problem was I wasn't relevant at all. He didn't care where I was or what I was. I mean, he cared eventually. I wouldn't say he didn't care. He didn't want to get lost forever. But he was happily, he would happily go away for long periods of time and then come back and find me. And if I'd moved, that was when he would get properly lost.

Those were the long absences. What if I had walked off once I learned that and I stopped moving, we didn't have that. And eventually, once I became a better partner for Kulin, he just, it was much easier. He tended to stay very close to me then because he knew that I would, I was, I was worth hanging out with. Fair enough. Any kind of final thoughts or key points you want to leave listeners with as we wrap things up? Yes. So I love pre-driving dogs. I really love it. It's endlessly fascinating. There's so much complexity to it. And each dog is so individual that it's something that's so interesting. And it's also a fundamental part of who dogs are. It's part of the blueprint of being a dog. It brings them so much happiness. When they can engage in it, it brings them so much happiness. So what I want to do in the webinar is demystify it for people because it is quite mysterious still. And I want to help the attendees learn how to love it as well. It's entirely, in my head, unlike reactivity where you often, you and the dog will feel better if it just never happens again. Pre-drive is not like that. But we humans might feel better if it never happens again, but the dogs won't. They won't feel better. So I want to help everybody learn to love it the same way as I do. Awesome. And hopefully they will. Hopefully this gives them a little bit of a taste and the webinar gets them the rest of the way there. Perfect. Yes. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Tracy. Thank you for having me. It has been so nice to meet you and chat to you about Pre-Drive. Likewise. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Liz Joyce to talk about the handler half of the dog sports team and how you can perform at your best. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice. We'll be back next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chrislin. Thanks again for tuning in. Happy training. Thank you.