E177: 헤더 로슨(Heather Lawson) - "퍼포먼스 독을 위한 생활 기술"

Um, but I think often that's kind of not the case. So what, what, what led you to really develop a life skills class? Um, yeah, that's definitely not the case because you can see, um, most people concentrate, you know, when they get that, um, sport puppy, they want to start out and do all their sports and everything. And they forget about the fact that they still have to live with the dog. They still have to have a regular everyday life. And even though you're going to be doing sports and so forth, um, you still have to consider that what's the dog going to be like once that sport life is, um, finished when they're retired. So my focus is on, on those life skills. When I get a new puppy, I'm not really focusing too much on the sport that I'm going to do with them. I do obviously the basics and so forth, but, um, I need to get that puppy up and running so that they, they learn to be, um, quiet. They learn to sort of chill out. They learn to basically do nothing. And I think that's the biggest problem sometimes is we forget to teach our puppies to do nothing and to behave well. Um, basically kind of like kids, uh, seen, but not heard. And I think a lot of, um, dog sport people kind of put up with a lot of stuff because they're so busy running, you know, like they're like the over, the over scheduling parent. They're running from class to class to class, sport to sport, sport. And they, they just deal with it in the moment. And then when things kind of calm down, they go, Oh my God, uh, I'm getting dragged here and there. I can't do anything. I can't go anywhere. I can't leave the dog alone. You know, they're tearing things apart. I can't sit down and watch a movie. The dog's in my face wanting to do things. So that's kind of where the life skills happened. And also too, I, I kind of hope to get some, uh, some other people in there. Maybe, you know, I hadn't considered dog sports, but we're pet people. And maybe we could sort of drag them into the sport arena. And by providing the, the life skills, it, it also helps those people who have maybe, you know, reactive dogs that, you know, need to get out and still work and be among the community, but need some help in, in doing those kinds of things. Um, and also too, for me, the life skills thing really came to light. Oh, years and years and years ago. Um, I was out and this will probably come into something we'll discuss a little bit later. I was out at a trial and luckily I'd done all my pre-work with my dog. And then all of a sudden I had this, um, this elevator that we had to go in. And I realized she'd never been in the elevator before.

Oh, we took a lot of stairs that weekend. And because, uh, I couldn't have her freaked out over that. So that just kind of put that in the back of my mind and got me started on, on things. And now I just, I delve deeply into doing all the life skills, all the things I might encounter if I was out doing sports and doing things and traveling, doing all that kind of stuff so that my dog doesn't have to stress about the unknown or the new when she's in that, that sport mode. I love that. Um, kind of that look at it, right? Cause I think a lot of, a lot of people underestimate the importance of making sure that the dog is comfortable with all the aspects of travel and the other things that happen when you travel to a competition, right? Like the elevator thing that you shared. Um, and then what they don't realize is then that'll affect their performance, right? Because even if the dog is well-trained for the ring, if you have all of this stressful stuff that happens before you go in the ring, the dog, she's not going to be their best self in that ring. Oh, absolutely. And it, and it makes a huge difference. So, you know, teaching, um, you know, like my puppies would go younger. Dogs that I had would, would go to me, go with me to trials. They would learn to chill out in the crates. They would learn to do that. They would, you know, have different people interacting with them. Uh, they would go to the hotel. I mean, I started really young making sure they're potty trained first. Uh, cause it's not fun in a hotel room when you don't have a potty trained puppy, but, um, you know, you travel all over the place and you get them comfortable with those situations so that when they're there, it's just, oh yeah, this is same old, same old. I don't have to worry about that. I don't have to scream my head off. I don't have to get overexcited about it. I can handle this. I can take it in stride. So anything that a breeder does with their puppies and getting them ready to go to their new home, I just sort of carried on and just kept it going and growing. And that way I never had, my dogs would never stress on the weekends. You know, if I was trialing, it was just, okay, let's go. Uh, whereas, you know, some of my friends, their dogs would be stressing. They wouldn't eat. They wouldn't, you know, they'd get diarrhea. They get all those different kinds of things that come with stress. And I didn't ever have that problem. And I, then this is why this is what happens. Right. So, um, at least as much as possible, you're doing the preventative work. Exactly.

Um, you know, there's going to be situations, uh, such as that elevator, you know, idea. Oh, and there's also another one I'll tell you about a little bit later. Later, once we do the elevator, but then, and I actually ran into the same situation with, with Piper as a young puppy, um, when we were at the beach, um, in Victoria, but with, uh, with certain things that, that come up, you can't prepare for everything, but if they've been exposed to a lot of different things like siren, I mean, what happens if the siren goes off and, you know, the alarm goes off in the, in the hotel, you know, that freaks some dogs out completely. Um, you know, you've got to start working on all those types of different things and so that your dog can handle it. And it's not an additional stress. It's kind of like preparing your dog. Um, you know, I say like for crating people are a little bit, sometimes hesitant pet people to crate. And I think, well, okay. Number one, when you go out, it's kind of a safe bucket for your dog, you know, in there while you're not present. The other thing too, is that if you have to travel, your dog has to be comfortable in that crate. If you have a natural disaster, your dog has to be comfortable in that crate. If say, for instance, I have to go to the veterinarian and they have to stay overnight, they need to be comfortable in that crate. So that's why crate training is valuable, right? So you kind of prepare and, and see how many different ways that you can apply the different types of skills that you're, you're teaching the dog. And the same thing goes with settling. If your dog can settle nicely at home while you're watching the movie and they're laying in their mat and you're, you're doing that chuck of the popcorn to keep them there, or they've got a bully stick and they're, they're chilling out. That chilling out can be taken to the back patio. It can be taken to a friend's place. It can be taken, you know, to the coffee shop. It can then be taken to the trial environment and your dog is going to be easy and able to settle. Yeah. Yeah. And therefore calm in that environment. Yeah. So I don't know about you, but I know personally kind of one of the life skills that I find the most difficult to teach sports dogs is loose leash walking. I kind of find it even more difficult than some of their sports specific, you know, kind of precision skills sometimes. So can you just talk a little bit about the kind of the approach that you use? Oh yeah. Loose leash walking. Everybody's nemesis. I think everybody has a particular vision in their head about what loose leash walking is.

Some, and so for me, I have actually kind of like, there's three different types of walking. I have the sort of adventure walk where it's a leisure walk. You can, you can go anywhere you want to, you know, you can go to the end of the leash. Doesn't matter. Just don't pull me. Okay. So you can sniff, you can do whatever we're walking. We're just strolling along and you're sniffing. You're having a good time seeing who was here last. The other type is a loose leash walking. We're walking down the street. We're going from point A to point B. Don't pull me. You can stop and take a sniff, but I prefer you don't. You know, like say you're walking down a busy street, you know, storefronts and people are coming and going and you want a dog that's walking nicely, but not on a tight lead. And then of course there's our healing that is their specific heads up, you know, pretty stuff that everybody sees in the ring. And the biggest problem with loose leash walking is that people think that there's one method and there really isn't one method. It's always, it's always going to be a combination of methods. And they also aren't clear in their criteria and they're not consistent. That's the, you know, basically it's the human end of the leash. That's the problem. It's not the dog, right? The dog is just doing his thing. I am, but if you don't tell him what to do when and how you need to do it, then they're going to continue to pull and to do that. And you're going to get into that spiral circle and you just, you know, it's out there. Don't pull me out there. Don't pull me. You're back and forth, back and forth. And it just gets hard on the back, gets hard on the shoulders, hard on the elbows. And then the dog doesn't get walked as it should. It doesn't get out into the community as it should for that social exposure. And then they have a life of backyard or dog sport or backyard and maybe to the dog park where you just let them off and run. And so they don't get walked and they don't get that interaction. You don't get that relationship really. The different methods that I use, I was going through that. I've got the human food store, the one, two, three cookie, the 300 steps, penalty yards, circling. And I do all of those separate and in combos. So it depends. Here's the old word. You know, people ask you a question. How do you teach loose leash walking? It depends. Depends on the dog. Depends on the situation. And it depends on what the individual can comfortably do and accomplish. Some, you know, methods work better for some people and some dogs. And some methods just don't work at all.

It's all dog dependent and human dependent. I thought you were going to ask me about the human food store one. Go for it. I haven't been there yet. Go for it. I haven't heard that before. Well, the human food store, this is one that I, it's actually off leash, loose leash. Oh God, I can't say that. Off leash, loose leash walking exercise. And I start that out with my baby puppies. Because puppies, when they come, they want to be with you. They want to be around and following. And wherever you go, you know, they want to go. And so, and so, uh, the first thing that I do is I stuff my pockets with food. So I am literally a human food store. And I walk around. And every time that puppy chooses to follow or to come up, um, onto, you know, in my case, the left side, I walk my dogs on the left. Um, they get paid. And it doesn't have to be, uh, anything formal. You're not encouraging the dog to come with you. It's just, if you move and that puppy follows and you stop and that puppy's in that position, boom, they get a cookie and they get another cookie and they get a little bit of, you know, contact and, and, and, uh, communication. And then you just move off. If they continue to walk with you and they stay in that spot, look at you doing so good. And they get another cookie. And if they choose to wander off now, which they will do once I, and I do a lot of this in and around the house. And once I move it to the backyard, of course, now we're changing criteria. It's a different distraction, different environment and so forth. I just walk around the yard doing my chores. And again, if they choose to come up, they get paid. Uh, if they choose to go off and run around, that's fine. Nothing happens. You, you get that. And then you come back and you get, so even now with Piper, uh, at five years, as soon as I get up to go outside or to do anything, she's right there, you know, following and beside my, on my left side. So it really transfers nicely later when you add the leash and you need some, you know, the dog to be attentive to you. They already have that little bit of foundation when you start more formalized. Right. So. I like that. Yeah. And I like the name too. That's cute. And then I was going to tease you and ask you to say, uh, uh, off leash, loose, leash, walking, five times fast. Go for it. No. Oh, off leash, loose, leash, walking off leash, loose. No, I can't. And no, off leash, on leash, loose. Forget it. It's just, it's a tongue twister. And that's why in my pet dog classes, I just say, okay, loose leash walking is called LLW. All right. So if I'm talking about that, that's what it is.

Otherwise I'm going to trip over my tongue. Yeah. So I hear you, um, we, we kind of talked a little bit about the available elevator training earlier, but I know that's something that you kind of include in the class and I get why it's an important skill, especially for a sports dog. Um, it seems like it's a really hard thing to train. Cause I can't picture kind of how you, how do you split that or how do you break that down to kind of help your dog be comfortable and well-behaved? Well, um, depends. Um, again, there's that, that, um, it depends on how, uh, where I, where I start depends on the individual dog. So if I've got a dog that doesn't like things moving under their feet, which quite often is what is the scary part of the elevator for the dogs. Um, and generally I'll, I'll put some kind of a board or something on top of say a cushion and let it just move. So they get used to, you know, wobbles and moves and, and, and balancing themselves. No. Oh yeah. Okay. Something moves. No big deal. That's for those dogs that are, are, you know, concerned with movement under their, under their paws. If the dog isn't concerned, then we first start just at the elevator door. It pings, it goes open and shut, open and shut. It pings, it goes open and shut, open and shut. And we just sit there and watch it so that the ping of the door opening doesn't mean you rush through. It's just there. Uh, then we'll go in and if you're lucky enough to find an elevator that isn't being used quite as often, um, I borrowed my husband's office building, uh, one afternoon on the weekend. Um, you can go in or parking, the park aids and things. I build, um, office park aids and things like that. Shopping malls are sometimes good on the slow days. So we've watched the elevator door open and close, open and close. And then, uh, you go in and you, you just, you take a step in and you take a step out. You go in and out the door. It doesn't close. It doesn't do anything. And then the next process would be, you would go in and the door would close, but you don't go anywhere. And then you come back out again. It pings and you go back out again. You only, once the dog is comfortable going in and going out and setting up in the elevator, because there's specific ways I personally like to set up in the elevator so that I don't, um, put my dog in a position of getting stepped on or should another dog or something, you know, come on the elevator, then they're not going head to head. Um, you know, once you've got that all worked out, then I do the movement of the elevator. I never go down first.

I always go up because when you go down, that's the feeling to the dogs. Oh, my God, the floor is falling out from underneath of me. So if they can get used to the movement going up and the sounds and everything there, then coming down doesn't seem to be as much, uh, uh, catastrophe for them. Um, you know, then they normally would, because if they got on it and all of a sudden the thing went down, they, that's that funny feeling, especially if you've got those elevators that are really fast, right? They go down and even we feel it. So you can imagine what they're feeling under all four of their paws and everything. So they, that gives them a better idea of what happens inside that elevator. And then of course, when you're in the elevator that, you know, you're sitting, you're staying put, you're getting rewards for, you know, every time that door opens, you get, uh, cookies, you get treats. And quite often people will say, my dog just, dog just charges out of the elevator. That's because as soon as the door pings and opens, you move. So I, you have to teach the dog that just because the door pinged and open doesn't mean that you, it's time for you to get off. Cause I can just see it, you know, people, the dog charges out, the person can't get out. There's the dog on the other side of the elevator and the person's on the inside and boom, you go up and, you know, we've all seen or heard of those situations where, you know, the dog was in the elevator and, you know, catastrophe type of thing. Right. So it's all about keeping your dog nice and close and tight to you and making sure that they don't have that, that room to move. So that's basically the sort of, in a nutshell, is how I go through that process. And that's kind of what I had to do with, um, getting back to the, the example of Luca when she was alive and going up to, on that elevator, it was just like, you know, she put her, literally put the brakes on and it was like, no, I'm not going in there. Uh, and then finally, by the end of the weekend, we'd work through it and she was like, okay, trotting right in and I'll have to go and it's no big deal. And she had been fine ever since, but it was just something that just hadn't occurred to me because I hadn't been in elevators with her in the hotels and stuff that I had been traveling at. They were all those, you know, motel things, either walk up or, or, or, you know, ranch style type of thing where you're pull up to your door and you're in. So it hadn't occurred to me. The other situation that I ran into, um, that is important is open stairs. Everybody thinks upstairs are stairs.

Dogs can go up and down them. Nope, not so much. Um, had that situation as well. Um, went into a hotel and the only way that the stairs up happened to be all that open look through. So I'm thinking, uh, I'm screwed. So to put it bluntly, um, it, she just, it's like, she looked at it and she goes and she did not want to go up. Same dog, Luca. And, um, it took us a little while, cookies, lots of cookies, lots of cookies. And then after that weekend, of course she was running up and down. No problem. I ran into the same problem with the open stairs with Piper a few years ago when she was about, Oh, I would say a year. Um, tag took off down the stairs to the beach and, uh, she just followed. And then I called them back up and they came, they turned around, started to come back up. Uh, tag came back up. No problem. Cause he, you know, he just doesn't pay any attention to that stuff. And she started coming up and she looked at it and she go, Nope. And they were, I didn't realize that these were open stairs. So she goes up and she starts, she jumped off the side, uh, of the stairs and it's like cliff type of, you know, shrubbery and all the other kinds of stuff. She starts trying to come up that. And I go, no. So I had to run downstairs, grab her onto the thing. And literally we did the click and treat, click and treat all the way up. Right. And then we went down all the way back up again. And now, you know, the open stairs aren't a problem, but that could have been quite a disaster. And I just, again, she was the type of dog that used to, you know, was taking everything in stride. No big deal. Except for the open stairs. So there's little things like that that sort of, you know, slipped by me even after I've had that experience with another dog and just didn't think of it because I didn't know those stairs were open like that either. So I'll let myself off the hook on that one. Fair enough. And I think that's interesting. And I love the tip about going up before you go down because I think that makes total sense. And I don't know that I would have thought of that. So yeah, because, you know, I've seen people like, who was it? One dog that I had did that the first time he went in and the first time we, we, we lowered the elevator, he just, he literally, and he was a big boy solid. He wasn't scared of anything. And he literally kind of flattened on the floor. And it was just like, it's okay, bud. No big deal. And he's looking at me kind of like turning in his head and looking. And it was like, oh, and that was fine. He, once he felt it and then realized what was happening, it was no big deal. He was fine.

I didn't have to do any work with him, but that was the first time that we had, we gone down with him and some dogs will flatten. The other type of elevator is the all glass elevator. Those are fun. Those are really fun to work a dog in because the dog, they look, and then they literally kind of like freeze and back up. Some of them will, right? And some dogs just never get over that. So that's a, that's a hard, hard one because they're not really that common. So you can't do a whole lot of practicing with them, but the open, the open glass elevators I've run into quite a few times. And luckily my dogs haven't had concern because I'd done all that pre-work with the other enclosed elevators. So they were, it was just like, oh, okay. Oh, Hey, I can see things rather than being in an enclosed box. Yeah. Yeah. So, so naturally kind of thinking about other things up on that life skills box, right? So recalls are kind of an, obviously in that need to need to have, need to know category. You know, looking at syllabus, you teach both a verbal and a whistle. So I'm curious why both. Poison cues. The reason is one of the reasons. And the other reason of course goes back to Piper. She was the first puppy that I've ever had in my whole lifetime that I would, you know, call and you bend down, you go here, like every breeder calls their puppy. And she would come to a certain point and it was like, nope, not coming. Or she'd turn around, she'd just look at you. Nope, not coming. Even if you walked away and I did all the normal things that you do with teaching a recall, this puppy was not having anything to do with it. So I said, all right, I'm going to try. I'm going to go opposite to what I would normally do. I'm going to, I'm going to use a whistle. So I did the typical pairing, whistle, treat, whistle, treat, whistle, treat. And in three days of working her solid, like off, you know, over and over and over again, I had a recall that I couldn't really believe. And that was, she was, and I've got pictures of it, a video that I actually remembered to take while I tried it. And she was out playing in the backyard with tag and she had a little stuffy toy. And this was the first time I'd done it when there's been that much of a distraction. And I whistled and granted, I gave her more whistles than, you know, I called her multiple times, let's say, with the whistle. And what happened was she, as soon as she heard the whistle, her little, I could see her little head pops up and she turns and runs towards me. And then she turns around and goes away. And I go, oh, maybe she doesn't know where I am.

She went back, picked up her stuffy, right? Because she forgot her stuffy and came running in, dropped it halfway and then had to go back and get it. And then came right back in and went right in the door and right into her pen with her stuffy. Right. It was, it was just, it was hilarious. Right. And I was like, yes, okay, this works. And everybody that I've taught this whistle to in, in this particular way, and it's just simple. It's just pairing it and then working from there. Within a week, they say that really works. Right. And it's like, especially in my pet dog classes, it's like, I need you to do this whistle, but we don't want to do a whistle. I need you to do this whistle. But she's, well, she's, why can't I just call her? Just do me a favor and do the whistle. And they go, that whistle really works. This is no kidding. Okay. Because we had one dog that was, she was not coming. She decided that all of a sudden that she was not going to come when she was called verbally. It just was not there for whatever reason. I don't know how they had, you know, maybe poisoned the cue a little bit, obviously either calling too much or whatever. But she ran out and she went down the road. And so that was their stimulus to, to call her and to get started with the whistle. And she did it again. Only this time when they whistled, she turned right around and came back. So they are, that couple is a firm believer in this whistle. And I've had a couple of other, you know, even behavior problems. Just calling the dog verbally sometimes just isn't enough. We give them so much verbal diarrhea in their life, right? We humans have this necessity to tap, tap, tap, tap, tap. And so a lot of their, their cues and their signals and everything get lost in all of that, that verbiage. So having that whistle, it's sharp, it's different. And it means the same thing, no matter who's doing it, just like the clicker does. And it travels a great distance. So if you're hiking with your dog or you like to go, you know, different places and your dog happens to go running after something or, or, you know, into the bush exploring. And you're continuing on that whistle carries a long way where your voice doesn't carry as much. Right. And I live on, you know, in the North shore and in British Columbia and bank in North Vancouver. And so going up on, you know, on the trails and so forth, that the dogs go off in the bushes, I can whistle and they can hear me from way off. Right. And, you know, then once you've got that whistle and they got the recall, it's very easy to then add a verbal recall. Right.

And to install a good solid recall cue. Cause the way I kind of explain it to people is one of the reasons why your dog doesn't come when you call is because you're calling him as he's running away. So basically you're saying, you know, fluffy, come fluffy, come as they're running away. So you're basically telling the dog that what they're doing by running away is called come. So it's not really come because the dog should be coming towards you if you call come. Right. So people kind of get it that way. But most often it recalls are non-existent because people don't start with that, with a little bit of foundation in, in, in their recall name game and making it rewarding. Um, and paying out, I consider something like the recall, whether it be a whistle or a verbal as a lifesaver behavior. So I, you know, I have different kinds of categories for different things, but that's a lifesaver behavior. And that kind of lifesaver behavior gets paid out every single time. So even tag at 14, if he happens to hear me, uh, and now we're relegated to kind of a clap because it seems to catch his ears a little bit more. Um, he gets paid when he comes because I want them not to, um, not to not come. Right. And I, I had, I've had, had clients where they've gone and they've said, I don't want to pay anymore. I don't want to, I don't want to be paying for the dog coming when I call them anymore. And within a week they're recalling that puppy's gone. And then they come into class, they say, puppy doesn't come anymore. And I said, I know exactly what happened. You stopped reinforcing that recall. Didn't you? Well, yeah, I don't want to pay for it all the time. I said, well, would you go to work and work and not get paid? Then they think, no. So I said, you got to pay for that. That's one that's really, really important. So you're going to always pay for it. Right. It's worth, it's kind of worth the investment there. Yeah, exactly. Right. And I find the whistle, if the environment is really distracting, the whistle kind of goes, does a little knock, knock, knock on the head. And it is so different that they go, oh, yeah, right. I got to go. It's harder to tune out. It's harder to tune out. Yeah. For, for whatever reason, it's just harder to tune out. Whether it's the fact that it gets a ton more of reinforcement during the whole process that, that people, because they have to blow a whistle and then give the cookie and do all the kind of stuff. Whereas when you call, sometimes you forget to pay out. You know, when you've got a whole sort of step-by-step process, it's a consistent payout.

So maybe that's why the whistle works so well. But if you can't get a recall on the dog verbally, you switch to that and then you go back to your verbal. I like that. So, you know, we've talked through recalls. We talked about elevators. We talked about the swoosh walking. You know, what other, you know, life skills do you really see as vital for sports dogs, right? Are there any life skills that maybe it's even more important for sports dogs to have than, you know, for pet dogs who will never compete? For sport dogs, I'm trying to think of my own. And basically, it's kind of what happens the whole process through whether you, if you're at, say, a venue and you're going from the car to the venue, it should be nice and cool and calm collected. You shouldn't be dragged in or dragged out of the venue or, you know, really dragged out of the ring period after your performance. The dog should be able to settle and not worry too much about what's going on around them. They need to be able to settle in their vehicles. It's just some, you know, what happens between the spaces between working and non-working. That's important. And while others are working, to be able to just sit there and chill out. And a lot of people mistake that they think that if the dog is chill, they don't have the so-called drive to do the sport. But that just means the dog understands that they're not working, right, at the moment, that they're just on a pause or a hold. So teaching the dogs how to pause and how to be on hold, still being ready to go and ready to work, right, I just don't need you right now, I think is super, super important for the sport dog. Because it gives them a chance to relax between runs. If they're constantly tugging or they're constantly doing this and they're, you know, being attention and being attended to and run from here to there and run from that back and forth, the dog never gets a chance to sort of recoup and refocus. And I think by having that, okay, I can chill, I'm not on, take some time, take a breather, okay, we're ready to go and on. They know when they're supposed to do something and when they're not supposed to do something. And then everything is calm, if that makes any sense, right? So it's kind of the spaces that I, you know, I want everything nice and calm each step of the way at each transition point. So whether you're going from the ring, from the crate to the ring, the ring to the crate, crate to the car, you know, the house to the car, each place has a transition point.

So if your dogs are cool, calm and collected each step of the way, then the whole thing is you don't have an overly aroused dog all the time and they learn to settle. That makes sense to me. Can you, can you just share a little more about the class itself? You know, who should consider it? Who'd be a good fit? Is there anything people need to know kind of heading in? It's actually a good fit for anybody, for any dog at any stage. But that being said, it's not really, it's not meant totally really for if you've got a reactive issue. That's a totally different situation. Although most of the things can be done, you know, at a distance. You don't have to, you know, have the distraction and the interaction and everything that we work towards. So you can work on a lot of the skills and sometimes working on just the settling skills and, you know, the transitional skills going from, like I said, from the car, from the house to the car, car to the dog park where they're going to be let off leash and so forth. Or to the sports venue or, you know, even going into the veterinarian. I had one client, they couldn't even, the dog was so bad you couldn't even have a conversation in the vet's office. And I got called in to sort that out. But each time the dog has a transition point and is calm, it's good for dogs that are experiencing a little bit of, say, over-the-top behavior. So I think it would do well. It's good for puppies because you can limit it down to, you know, where the puppy level is. And it's good for older dogs who maybe just need some, some remanagement of their, of their manners and their skills. Because, as I said before, they start, they don't start out in the sport. You got to live with them first and you got to live with them throughout, you know, their, their lives. And then at the end of their, their working life, you know, they're at home. And if they're a pain in the butt when they're at home, you know, it's not much fun. Especially if you have multiple dogs to deal with and they're all like that. That could be a household full of stress. And I think that's where people then end up having problems with inter-dog problems is that there's, there's no level of calm within the house. There's the, you, you all, there's always turmoil. And that carries into, you know, everything else. It escalates all kinds of behavior problems. Right, right. So the other topic I was hoping we could talk about for a bit is platforms. So I know a number of our FDSA students recently bought a kit of platforms. And obviously we're a huge fan of climbs.

But kind of first kind of going into it, I'm curious, how many different types of platforms do you typically use in your training? Off the top of my head, I'd say seven different types. Okay. Okay. And by, and when we talk about platforms, lots of people, it's interchangeable. Like a foot target is basically a foot platform. It's just a smaller one, right? Or the pivot pot is a platform, but it's just pivot pot. That's what everybody calls it. So I probably use about seven roughly. And I went ahead as well and bought four Kato boards myself. Even though I got, I've probably, I got about, I think, geez, I think I've got about at least a dozen climbs. Um, cause I use them in class and for all different kinds of stuff that, um, I managed to sneak in the Kato boards. My husband doesn't even realize that they're new cause I've got so much junk anyways. Um, so yeah, so that I've got the pivot pot. I've got the square, um, the square pivot pot. I actually should just call it a square pivot, uh, short rectangular sit platform, the long, uh, rectangular stand and position change platform. Um, I have a long square and by long square or large square rather, I mean climbs. So I would maybe put four climbs together or two locked together and I might even be able to stack, um, two or four, two to three climbs high, um, as well or that. And then I have the small, um, square, which is just the single climb, um, small rectangular foot target, which is, uh, like a yoga brick size basically. Um, but I don't use the full height of a yoga brick. Um, I use a cork yoga brick, but I cut it in half because, uh, too tall and it tips. Right. And then, and then it's, you know, dogs don't, um, especially for a very exuberant dog, but I find the weight of the cork is nice for those little targets. And then of course I had the four Kato boards, which are, uh, what I would call my medium rectangle. Um, and you could also like suppose classify a wedge in there. Um, but, um, I use my climbs as a, as a kind of an angled, um, wedge for that type of thing for rear foot stuff and, and that, but, um, that's about it. That's all, that's all I got. Just, just seven. Just seven. Seven or eight. Yeah. Different ones that I use for, for different things and they all are for different things at different times. Right. So the larger ones, um, would be for, uh, getting a dog used to a platform. Right. You don't need to worry about precision or anything like that. You're just getting them used to the platform, getting them used to being there, building a reinforcement history for that platform.

And then you start to, um, narrow the platforms down. You start to change which one for the particular job that you're going to use. Right. So, um, uh, what was I saying? So, you know, for instance, I might start out with a default stand on two climbs put together. Um, but I'm definitely not going to be able to get precision in heel position with that because the dog's got too much room to move. So that's when I would narrow it down to my, say 10 or 12 inch wide long platform that I'm going to use because that, then I let the platform do the work for me. I don't have to adjust the dog. Right. So the dog, the platform, the equipment is, should work for you, not against you. And I think that's the biggest problem is people use the, um, incorrect piece of equipment for what they're trying to achieve in their goal behavior. Um, so that was actually my next question is what, what, uh, some of the skills that you, you kind of use them for. So do you want to just kind of talk through maybe another example or two? Oh, okay. So if I'm, um, uh, platforms in heel position, uh, in front visit for front position, I use a small foot target. If I want to, uh, work on signals at a distance, uh, cause it keeps the front feet anchored. Um, if I want to do directional casting, like they, you know, like send the dog from one platform to the other platform, um, uh, go out. Can I say that already? Um, I actually use them for other non dog sport things. Um, and that is, they make a great grooming table. Uh, so the climbs that, you know, dogs are up on it. Um, I can actually make the, um, uh, I've done it where I put two platforms at either end of Cavaletti's and I just sit in a chair with the, with the, the manners treat, treat and train on either end. And I can sit and I can watch my dog from the side as she's doing the Cavaletti's. And then she goes out to her climbs to get her, her cookies. Um, it's a, it's a fun thing to do. So it's kind of like, I'm sitting there like a lazy trainers couch training basically. Um, but any distance work, um, platforms are great for, um, even any moving, um, positional changes such as a moving stand. You can use a platform for that. Um, I probably would not use a small foot platform, but I'd use a, uh, the long rectangular platform or even the wider, the longer, wider platform, just so the dog comes up and they stop because they get to the end of the platform. So they stop, right? It's one way if you're having some difficulty in doing that. So there's lots of, lots of things you can do. Uh, they make a rear, a good, um, rear getting the dogs to use their rear.

Uh, that's where you use the angled climb. You take the feet off of one end of it and put it on the, on its end. So if you want to work a different type of rear foot movement, um, if your dog is going back up on straight on the ground, you can try the climb. And it's a totally different thing because Piper knows her, her backup. But when I, uh, did a video for this webinar, she, she's like, I don't, I don't quite get this foot thing and it's making my butt go up in the air. And she was, she had a little bit of trouble with it in the very beginning, but then she caught on quite quickly. But it was funny watching her kind of feel behind her and use her feet behind her without looking, right? As, as she raised herself. So the, you know, whole variety of things, two on, two off, right? Uh, for, for agility, all different kinds of sports. So how can using a platform help? You know, even if it's a skill, maybe you could technically teach it without the platform. Um, I'm lazy. So I don't want to get in the habit. Um, that's not the only reason I use platforms that I, I want to let the platform, uh, work for me and show the dog where they need to be. Um, and I don't want to have to constantly lure or readjust the dog and the platform takes all of that luring and that readjustment kind of out of the picture. Granted, you will have to, um, do a little bit of, uh, adjusting and lowering criteria when you start to take the platforms out. But, uh, initially you can get really good, precise positioning with a platform that would take you a little bit longer because using a platform, the criteria is very clear to the dog. And it allows you to build a really good, solid reinforcement history for the position, right? Before you even add the cue. And so the dog's got the position because they got the reinforcement. So adding the cue onto things becomes that much easier. And then when you go to remove the platforms, uh, which is easy, I'm not really a proponent of, um, sort of fading down, down, down, because really what's the point of having a flat platform? The dog doesn't really feel it anyways. Um, you can certainly do it that way, but I prefer just to sort of on and off, remove it, um, bring it back. If I need to spiff it off, if something isn't working and then I gradually kind of remove it. So it's removed more than it is in. And I like to, as I said, build a huge reinforcement history for the position before I remove it. And before I add the cue, add the cue, then remove it and then continue to add the reinforcement history for the correct position. So, um, it's just, it's economics basically.

Right. Right. Um, now in the, in the webinar description, you actually mentioned that you can use platforms to add energy and fun games into your training. And I think most people kind of, they associate platforms with more, um, static or still behaviors, right? Like a stay, um, kind of the opposite of that energy that you're talking about. So I'd love to just hear how you use them to encourage more energy. Well, when I'm teaching, um, when I do the fronts with the platform, um, uh, depending on which platform I'm using, if it's a, uh, the long platform, then it's a default stand. Um, I only have a sit on a, on a small sit platform, a small little rectangular, um, platform, just, just barely enough for the dog to sort of sit on nice tucked. Um, but when I'm working on the long one as I will, uh, do a lot of fun send outs to the platform, not requiring any specific thing. And then call them back into heel, come through my legs and then back out to the platform. I will do from side to side again, you know, with the, um, with the manners minor, the treat and train. So you have to get on the platform, sit or down, whatever you're cued before the, the cookie is dispensed. Um, when I'm doing, uh, getting back to the fronts, I do sort of a, what I call around the clock. So I'm tossing cookies. We start out going straight on, straight on. And once the dog is consistently straight, then we start moving around the clock. And so I can toss cookies behind me. The dogs come racing back around in front. So it creates a little bit more rather than just having the dog sit, recall, sit, recall. This creates a little bit more of a game as you're, as you're working on some precision and, and, and, uh, and placement of the dog. Same thing for heel position. Um, once we gotten off the, the pivot or, um, uh, pot or, um, and you're going down to the platform and then you're maybe going down to the foot target. You can do that same exercise around the clock with the, um, fine heel position. Okay. So the dogs learn to, you know, find heel from all different kinds of angles and that puts the game into it and it makes it more fun. So they can come, they can race out, get the cookie, come back, find heel, and then get a ball tossed. They race out, come back, get cookies tossed. And it's way more energetic and energizing. And even though you're doing lots of repetitions, it allows you to get those repetitions in a very short period of time. So therefore you're using your, your training time a lot more productively. Mm-hmm. Uh, so the webinar is right around the corner. It's on August 6th.

Um, anything else folks should know to kind of help them decide if they want to sign up? Um, this is not what I did is I took it like, okay, here's the different types of platforms. Here are the different types of things you can do with them. Um, and, uh, I didn't do it. I didn't approach it as a, as this is how you teach the skill. Um, because you'll see some things in there that it's like, you'll know that I'm not doing a very good job. Um, but I was just playing around with some of the things and I go, oh no, that won't work. Um, so a lot, just little things that I did with the different types of platforms, things that other people have done with their platforms and how they use them in different ways. Um, and basically kind of how to measure it and how to know what, which platform to use for, for what kind of behavior. And when you're, when I say that not one platform will work for one single behavior and you will want to introduce different types of platforms. So, as I said, I go from the pivot plot to possibly the, the long platform to then the foot target. And then finally everything is gone. So you mix and match and you change out the, the, the, the tools so that the dog, uh, is comfortable no matter what appears to it. That makes sense. So, uh, one last, one last question for you. Um, what's something that you have learned recently or been reminded of when it comes to dog training? Be clear your criteria. Um, I just, I was doing something with, um, with Piper and she had, she's kind of like looking at me like, what are you asking? And it was because I hadn't set her up to succeed. I had this vision in my mind of what I wanted to do, but I hadn't sort of prepared her for it. And so when I came and just did my thing, she's going like, I don't get it. So it's kind of like taking, stepping back and don't just good jump in. Think, do plan and review is kind of a motto that I learned from Bob Bailey, like years and years and years ago. So I think about what I want to do and then I sort of plan it out. And the other thing that, uh, that I'm always constantly reminded of, especially because I, I'm teaching pet dog people as well, is that practice without the dog first. Because if you don't know where you're going, neither will your dog. And if you have an expectation or criteria and a plan in your head, you will be able to, uh, not only help your dog, but actually, um, be there to support them the whole way through. It's kind of like, you know, would you go on a long mountain hike with a guy who had never been on that trail before or didn't know the area?

No, you're going to, it's like kind of a recipe for disaster. And so goes the, you know, being prepared and knowing your job with your dog before you start. If you're prepared and you kind of have a picture in your head and you kind of know what your, your final goal behavior is, you'll know, you'll figure out all the steps in order to get you there. And above all else, don't lump everything together. Don't try for the one final thing. There's every single behavior could be dropped down into multiple, multiple behaviors and split out. And it's much better to do that sometimes for some dogs because they, they need that. So it's, it's basically have consideration for your learner and make sure that you're doing your part to support them. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Heather. It was fun. You made me really think, Melissa. I had to think about some of these things and all the different types of things that I've experienced over my years and the things. And suddenly you forget, you know, what it is that you've, you've gone through and then you go, oh yeah, right. Or you forget a type of thing that you, a method that you used to use that really worked. And then you go, oh yeah, right. I got to go back to that because that was really a solid one to use. So thank you for making me think. Well, you're very welcome. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Musico. Thank you.