E179: 바바라 로이드(Barbara Lloyd) - 반려견 PTSD와 함께 살아가기

you know, eight years later, we're competing in agility and rally and parkour, and she's really come a long way. Then I have Brian, and he is a big mutt. He's probably about 75 pounds, and we compete in the FENZY team titles as well as we do parkour and rally. And then I have Dory time. She's my baby. She's only three years old, and she's probably my most active dog. We compete in herding, rally obedience, sprinters, chase ability, and she's got all of her trick titles as well. So she's a really fun little dog. Fun. So to kind of take things back a ways, how did you originally kind of get into dogs and dog training? Well, you know, I think kind of like everybody else, I had a dog, and I went to a local kennel club, and we worked our way up through obedience, and he was a really good dog. His name was Artemis, and he was a mutt. And he just picked up on everything really quick. And at the kennel club, of course, they were using, you know, compulsive methods, but I never really had to correct him, because he was just, he was just in tune with me. Then when we got to the open level, and he was like, no way, I'm not putting that dumbbell in my mouth. I don't know what it is. I don't, you know, like, forget it. And then the instructor said, well, you're going to have to pinch his ear and then shove this in his mouth. And I looked like, I looked at the instructor like she was growing a horn out of her head. And I said, I'm not doing that. And she said, well, then you're going to have to find another solution. And that's what I did. I found another solution. And it put me on this whole new track of a whole new lifestyle. So tell me a little more about that. You know, how did you kind of get started down that positive path? And you know, can you just talk a little bit more about that? Absolutely. It's kind of funny. I, you know, because I mean, my dog knew how to do mostly everything, right? It was just this darn retrieve. I couldn't get this retrieve. So I found out about clicker training. And as I was reading about it, and I, I figured out that I knew all the theory behind it from university. So I knew the theory of operant conditioning, but I had never, ever actually seen it applied in real life. So I got, you know, Karen Pryor books and things like that. And I read them and was thinking, I can do this, I can do this, I can do this. And I got a few clickers from a local veterinary clinic here. And then I figured I need a few more of these things. So I phoned the number on the clicker and it was, it was the name on the clicker was Sue Ailsby.

And so I thought I'll phone and ask her for some clickers because I thought she made clickers. I didn't know she was a dog trainer because where I grew up in the city and, and where Sue Ailsby lived were fundamentally different places. I grew up, yeah, like, I mean, I grew up on the wrong side of the track. Like, I mean, I grew up in poverty and I mean, it was, we were really on the wrong side of the track. So when I was a kid, my dog ran the neighborhood, you know, so there was no dog shows. There was no, I didn't even know people train dogs to do things except for police dogs, of course, which we were all afraid of. Right. So anyway, so I phoned Sue, I phoned the number and Sue answers and I say, yeah, um, can I please, I'd like to get a few more clickers. And she, she kind of pauses and she says, well, who is this? And I said, well, my name's Barbara Lloyd. And she said, well, where did you get my name? And I said, well, on the clicker I got, of course, you're the lady that sells the clickers, right? She says, well, yes, but I kind of do a little bit more than that. And I said, oh, is that right? What do you do? And she said, well, I kind of train dogs. And I said, well, I'm, I'm trying to train my dog and I don't know what I'm doing. And she said, so what do you want the clicker for? I said, I want the clicker to train the retrieve. And she said, do you know how to do that? And I said, no. And she said, well, do you want to learn? I said, yes. She said, well, she says, I think I can help you with that. I said, oh, she says, do you have any training background? And I said, oh, just from the kennel club here, but no, no, not really. And she says, well, she'll make a deal for you. She said, I'll, I'll get you clickers. She said, but how about you and seven of your friends, you get seven of your friends that are interested in dogs together. And I'll put together a free seminar for you. You bring dogs and I'll show you how to train them using the clicker. I was like, oh, this sounds like a deal. So that's what I did. That's how I met Sue Alesby. And I mean, the rest is history, right? Because I mean, that was 20 years ago. She mentored me and I went to this seminar and I mean, she just, it was like a magic show. I'd never seen anything like that in my life. And after the little seminar, I said to her, I said, wow, this is absolutely fascinating. How do I learn more? And she said, well, she said, I'll teach you. I'll teach you everything I know. All you have to do is start from the beginning. She said, you can't use the cues you used before.

You can't use any of the methodologies you used before. You have to completely become a quicker trainer. I said, oh, that's not hard. I can do that because I don't want to hurt my dog. I don't agree with that other stuff. So every week we got together, every week she gave me homework and I learned, she mentored me. She poured all of her knowledge into my head. And here I am 20 years later, my studio was on her property and my training studio is on her property. My training field is on her property. The sheep that I heard for training are on her property and I handle her giant schnauzer and hurting now. So it all worked out. It's kind of funny to think that, you know, if you hadn't decided to call and look for more clickers, you might be in a totally different profession, totally different path in life. It would have been actually, it really would have been because in those days I was very, very, very much invested in becoming a lawyer. So it was, it was a huge career change. And what happened was once I learned about clicker training and the possibilities that it held, I thought, you know, I'm not the only person in this city that feels like this. Other people must feel like this. And the other thing that I noticed was when I thought about my kennel club classes, I thought about the high rate of dropout. And I thought, you know, it was because people were uncomfortable with corrections. And I thought, you know, I can offer this and I can, you know, really improve the quality of people's relationships with their dogs. So when I decided after I was trained and I mean, in those days to Alesby's levels, there were a lot more levels. She, she really, they really pared them down. But in those days, the levels were a lot more, there was a lot more to them and there was a lot more confirmation and things like that. So you learned everything. And I had to work all through those. So I did all that. And then I thought, I want to start offering this as a business, but I was afraid. So I said to Sue, you know, this is really what I want to do. I think I would be, I think I could do this. And she said, well, definitely you could do it. And I said, but I'm afraid if I run into a snag, what if I, what if I can't help somebody? And she said, you know, I'm only a phone call away. If something happens, I'll come and help you. Don't worry about it. So she was kind of my, my insurance policy. She was the one that gave me that green light and the confidence to go ahead and do it. And I've been doing it ever since. And since then, most schools,

dog training, the kennel clubs and the other dog training schools that have started here are all reward based. They're not clicker trainers, but they are reward based. And that was what, why I started my business was I wanted to create a forward momentum and a force that would make people change and how they looked at animals. And it worked. If I asked you to kind of boil down your training philosophy and describe that for me, you know, how, how could, how would you do that? Like what, how would you kind of describe what your training philosophy is these days? My training philosophy is basically, I look at all animals as sentient beings. And as sentient beings, I feel like I have a responsibility to understand that animal and bring out the best that, that, that animal has and improve its quality of life. And at the end of the day, really do no permanent harm. I mean, in training, there's always going to be some harm because dogs feelings get hurt. But I really am looking at long-term life enrichment and quality of life. You mentioned kind of early on a little bit about DeeDee's story. I was hoping we could get into that a little more too. Would you be willing to kind of share some of her story? Absolutely. Yeah, I, I, I, I could definitely talk a bit about that. One of the things that it was, it was a landmark case in Canada. It was one of the only cases where an abuser was federally charged, which, so it was, it was a big case. But one of the things that differentiated her case from other cases was the fact that it was video documented. So they had video. So it wasn't just the injuries that the dog sustained that were being testified to. It was actual video. And so you can't dispute that. But what happened with DeeDee was her story is really quite tragic because she was originally adopted from the Humane Society here as a puppy. And then what happened was when she was about six months old, the people who adopted her decided that they couldn't keep her. And instead of returning her to the Regina Humane Society, they advertised her unused Regina. And that's where her abuser got ahold of her. He went and he had, and he took her from them saying that, you know, oh yeah, I have experience with dogs. I know what I'm doing and all of these things. And from the day that she was adopted from him to the day that she was apprehended by animal protection and the Regina City police here, she was abused. And it was, it wasn't just abuse. It was actually systematic torture. And it was the same thing every day at the same time. And it was repeated.

So she, her injuries were quite, well, they were quite substantial. And three months later, when the Regina City police and animal protection went in, arrested him and took her, she required immediate veterinary care and then a 30 day period of recovery. And then she was at the Humane Society, and of course it was their fondest hope that she would be able to be adopted, right? Because she had been through so much and, I mean, she was just destroyed. So they did a kind of like an assessment to see if she was capable of being adopted. Well, of course she failed. She failed on every account. And, um, the head of animal protection was absolutely devastated. And, um, I knew the director of the Humane Society. So she personally phoned me and she said, we have a case. And she said, we need your help. Can you come down and take a look at this dog? And I said, yeah, okay, I'll come down. So I went down and they couldn't tell me exactly what had happened to the dog because the case was going through prosecution. They were just building the case and they didn't even have a court date yet. But what they did tell me was that the dog had systematically been abused and tortured and that she was, uh, she was suffering from some, um, physical damage and emotional damage as a result of that and that she failed their assessment. And so she was basically slotted for euthanasia if I wasn't able to help her and take her. So I saw the dog and yeah, I mean, she was, she oscillated from completely jumping up on me, um, like obsessively jumping up. And kind of nipping and jumping and nipping to all of a sudden just dropping to the ground in a complete catatonic state. Those were the only two things she did. And it was just this back and forth, back and forth. And they couldn't tell me what happened to her because the case was still open. And so I, and her coat was just a disaster. Like she's like a Malinois or a shepherd cross and her coat was just like straw. Like it would, it was like, you could literally hear it go tinkle, tinkle, tinkle and fall off of her. That's how bad a shape she was in. So I said, okay, I think I can help her, but I need 24 hours to go home, tell my husband and prep my house because this is going to take some doing. So I went home and I, you know, I, I kind of rearranged some kennels and, um, put some gates up, talked to my husband about it and said, you know, um, I, there's this dog and it really needs us. Um, my plan is to foster her until she can be adopted out. And he said, well, okay, you know, I mean, you know what you're doing, that's okay.

And I said, but kind of the, the thing is she was horribly abused. And all that I know is that it was a male. So don't look at her, don't touch her, don't talk to her. Don't go in the same room with her. Um, we need to just really, really take this slow. And he said, okay. I mean, my husband's a very quiet guy. He's an IT guy and he doesn't really talk much to begin with. So I said, okay. Yeah. So I said, okay. Um, you bring her home. So I'm back to the shelter and, uh, I had a little meeting with animal protection and the head of animal protection, Diana Bishop, she said, okay, I got to tell you a few things. And I said, oh yeah, what's that? And she said, whatever you do, do not tell anybody that you have this dog. She said, don't put it on Facebook. Don't, um, put it on your website. Don't put it anywhere. And I said, okay. Like, is that because of the case? And she said, no, it's for your own personal safety. She said, the guy who abused her, I am afraid that she will come, he will come and find you and her and harm both of you because he viewed her as property to be done with whatever he wanted. So, and he was pretty irate when she was taken. I said, oh, um, okay. If this is, you know, my personal safety is at risk and, you know, thanks for the heads up. And, um, and at the time living in my home, I had, uh, a purebred Rottweiler who I imported from Germany and I did a lot of protection work with them. And then we also had, um, a great Pyrenees. And if you know anything about great Pyrenees, they're very, very territorial. So, so I had these two great big dogs that were both, they, one had just a super strong guarding instinct because that's who he was. And the other one was really protection trained. So I said, okay, so I've got these dogs. I think I'll be okay. I don't have to tell anybody. And I went and I couldn't leash her. Uh, I couldn't put a collar on her. I couldn't leash her. I couldn't do anything. And I couldn't pick her up because all she'd do is go in a field position, but I had another one of my dogs with me and I said, okay, well, I guess we're just going to have to take her out and see if she'll follow the other dog. And sure enough, she did. She followed the other dog right out to the car. The, the, I had my back opened and there were two crates and my dog jumped into a crate and she went to follow and couldn't get in, but she ended up on the bumper and then just went into the next opening, which was another crate. So I closed them both and off I went. And I took her home and, um,

I let her out. Like I opened the crate door and she kind of looked and then I opened the other dog's crate door and the other dog, you know, jumped out and she followed it and went into the backyard. And I'll never forget. She looked into the backyard and she thought, you know, kind of, what is this? Um, what are these sounds and, and things like that? And, you know, it was like, she was kind of shell shocked. And, and then the journey began. Um, I, it was a steep learning curve for me. It was a real steep learning curve for me. I never dealt with a dog like that. Um, cause all of our trainers, all of our instincts are, you know, desensitization and counter conditioning and praising and luring. If you want a dog to do something, you have to lure them and things like that. You couldn't do any of that with DD. Um, luring was a direct threat and she would just go into a catatonic state, any emotional eruption, she would just drop to the ground. Um, so what I had to really do was just sit and watch her and figure out what were the things that made her feel safe. And one of the things that was extremely insulating for her was the presence of another dog or several dog. So I always made sure she was in the presence of other dogs, which was good because I had several dogs. And, um, but I remember the first time I went to feed her and at the shelter, they had said, you know, she showed quite a bit of food aggression. So you better be careful. So I thought, well, she's showing food aggression. What am I going to do? Because she won't eat by herself because she doesn't feel safe in a room with a human being. Um, but if she's food aggressive, I can't have her eating in the presence of other dogs. And I was at a loss. So I thought, what am I going to do? So what I did was I put up an X pen, I put myself in the X pen because I couldn't put her in the pen because she was too scared. I put myself in an X pen. I'd already fed all my other dogs. And I had, um, Gabriel, my Rottweiler just in a down stay. I mean, you know what Rottweilers are like, right? Like they can down stay for three hours. And if you forget to release them, they're still there. So there he was, Gabriel, um, in a down stay at the edge of the kitchen. I was in the pen and I thought the best way for me to get any kind of a relationship with this dog is because she, she loved food. She absolutely loved food and I needed to get her over the food aggression. So here I am in the X pen and it's just got one of those little trap doors, you know,

the X pens that have the trap door in it. And, uh, so I opened the trap door, I had the food and I feed raw food. So Gabriel's in his down and she's kind of looking like, you know, what's going on here, but she's got him for security. And I just started handing her food through the trap door and she started eating it. And for months, that's how I fed her. I just fed her. I would put myself in the X pen. I'd have Gabriel in a down. And for months and months and months, that was how I fed her. And honest to goodness, she never once showed any food aggression and she never has shown any food aggression. Um, so I believe that the, the way that I went about it for her worked, which was hand feeding her, but not, and I wasn't having like, um, full body contact. It wasn't like a forward thing. I was sideways. So I wasn't even watching her eat. I was just putting my hand out the thing. And I remember the first time I did it, I was thinking, Oh, good Lord. I hope my hand comes back. And, you know, cause, cause you don't know. And, but what I did know was that full frontal body pressure was not going to make this dog feel good or safe. Right. So, um, so it was a big learning curve and they couldn't tell me what happened to her. So I had to just observe her and see all they could tell me was don't leash her and don't call her like, don't put a leash or a collar on her. And, uh, so I said, Oh, okay. And that they did tell me that one of the things that two of the injuries she had were, she had a dislocated hip that had to be surgically put in and she had a, uh, partially collapsed trachea. So I deduced from that, that she had, you know, she had some pretty severe trauma to her hip because dislocating a dog's hip is really, really difficult. And then when they're saying, don't put a leash and collar on, then I assume that, um, she probably received some pretty bad trauma from a leash and a collar. And I just proceeded from there. And so she was no leash, no collar. She was always insulated by other dogs. And I remember thinking, Oh, it's okay. Like if she never ever, you know, is on a leash or whatever, like, that's okay. Like I have good relationships with my vet, with my veterinary care and things like that. And I thought if all she ever does is hang out in the backyard and come for a long hike with me and the other dogs and she's happy and that's, that's good enough. And then of course, what started happening was, you know, you get a little bit more into your career and you get a little bit more money and you have money to travel and you want to go

places. Well, I couldn't go anywhere because I had this dog and I was the only one she trusted. So then, um, she became quite the traveler everywhere I went. She went with me. So she's seen the grand Canyon. She's been Palm Springs. She's into casinos in Vegas. Um, and for years, everywhere I went, I just took her with me because I was the only one that could care for her. And, um, but then as she grew and she matured and her confidence got better, um, now I can actually leave her. I leave her at my sister's house when we travel and cause we're, we're quite world travelers. And so when we're gone away for, you know, a month or whatever, she goes and stays at my sister's house and she's quite content there and she's all good. So I'm very, uh, I'm very, very grateful for that. But her PTSD hasn't gone away. It didn't disappear. It's still there. I was just telling a friend the other day, I said, yeah, you know, that poor Didi, you know, maybe four times a month, we'll all be in the backyard getting ready to go into the garage. I'll open the garage door and all the other dogs are like sandwiching through the door, trying to get in there to get into their crates in the back, you know, in the car and in the SUV. And for whatever reason that day, Didi looks at me, she says, I can't go, I can't go through that doorway today. So what I do is I just load everybody else up and I start my SUV. I open the big garage door. I pull out. And if she comes out and stands beside my door, then I open up the door that leads to her crate. She jumps in. She's happy as a clown. But then other days, she just runs to the back of the chain link fence and she looks at me and her tail is wagging. And that's her cue to say, honey, I'm good staying home today. And I don't pressure her. I just say, Oh, that's okay, honey. And I go and I close the doors and I take the other dogs. So, I mean, there's still events that occur in our life on a daily basis. Like, I mean, if things drop suddenly, like from on top the fridge where everything seems to get stacked. She, before what she would do is she would hit the ground and go into a catatonic state. And whereas now she actually just has a, like a normal startle response where she startles like a horse and, you know, she maybe takes two or three steps, but then she comes back and she looks and she says, so is it a treat or is it a toy? Which is it? Cause I want either one. So, but like I say, you know, it's been, it's, it's taken years and there's still triggers that, um, that come about.

Uh, but it's funny because certain things that other dogs found find very distressing and very, um, uncomfortable for Didi, they're not. Any kind of novelty for her is exciting. Anything she hasn't experienced is exciting. Um, I remember the very first time I took her to agility and it's a three ring, it's literally a three ring circus cause it's in an arena and there's three classes going on together at any one time. So there's usually about, I don't know, anywhere between 30 to 45 dogs or more at the building at a time. And it's chaos. And so they kind of give you this little bit of a talk about, yeah, you know, your dog is probably going to be distracted and it isn't going to be able to, you know, do this and do that, you know, the first few classes because of all the stuff that's going on. Well, for Didi, the more dogs that were there, the more she could concentrate. So, so it's kind of ironic that, you know, the things that would normally stress a dog don't stress her. Um, but the other stressors that she still has, like, she's still very, very, very sensitive to, uh, if we're like, if we were in a dog, if we were in a class and if somebody was crossed with their dog, you know, some people lose their temper and they'll yell at their dog or, um, she, she hits the ground still. Like for her, that's still like, Oh, this, I didn't sign up for this and I'm sure something bad's going to happen to me next. And so as a result, um, I guess I'm a little bit barracuda like in where I will and won't take her and what I expose her to. And because with a dog with PTSD, it's not just the event where they have a reaction, you also get ripple effects from that. And there's a lot of fallout. So, um, I remember once we were at agility and I was with my friend Gail and we lost our car keys and Gail was in a tizzy and I said, you know, I'll, I said, you know what, they'll turn up. And she's like, we, Oh, she, my nickname, she used to call me bubbles. She, bubbles, we got to find the keys. I said, Oh my goodness. I said, you know what? They're going to turn up. Don't worry about it. And I'm a visual person. So when I lose something, I kind of put it in the back of my head and then a picture shows up and then it's the picture of where the thing is that I looked, but she was just in a tizzy. I said, Oh, okay, listen, I'll go look outside to see if I can find these keys. So while I was outside looking, um, sure enough, a picture comes to my head and I had dropped the keys in amongst a bunch of water bottles in the back of my vehicle. So I found

the keys and I'm going back in, but I had been out for quite a while and I go back into the class and everybody in the class is kind of acting weird and they're kind of quiet. And I'm thinking, what is it? And, and sure enough, it's my turn, right? So I get Didi out of her crate and, and she's acting really weird. And I thought, Oh, she's just acting weird because, you know, Gail and I kind of had a little bit of a spat and, um, she'll be fine. And then the instructor comes over and she says, Oh, just let Didi do whatever she wants. And I thought, that's weird. And so anyway, so the class goes on and we leave and, but Didi doesn't really, she's not wanting to get into her crate. And I thought, that's weird. And so whatever, I didn't make her go back in her crate because if she didn't want to do something, I never made her do it because I never wanted to fall out. So then we're going out to the car. I open up the door and I'm like, okay, come on, honey up. And she looks at me and if she could shake her head and, and, you know, be like, uh, that's what she did. She just looked at me, you know, kind of gave me the look. And I said, Oh goodness, that's not good. So I asked her again, she said, no. And I said, that's okay. So I just went to the other side. Cause I always, always would take Didi in to places on a harness. So she always had a harness on and I always kept a spare seat dog seatbelt just in case something happened. So I connect her into the car or whatever. And she's, and she's happy. She's sitting in there. She's not in the crate. I figure, you know, oh, you know, tomorrow will be a new day. We'll go out for a hike. She'll get in her crate. Oh no, no, no, no. She would not go near that thing. So then a few days later, my friend Gail and I are, we're out and about, you know, being up, being up to no good probably. And Gail says, Bubba, I got something to tell you. Yeah. I said, Oh yeah. What's that Gail? She says, well, remember that night about the keys? And I said, Oh yeah. How could I forget? I said, Didi hasn't gotten into her crate, into her car crate or her collapsible crate since she just won't go in it. I don't know what happened. And she says, yeah, well about that. I got to tell you something that happened. And I said, well, what happened? She said, well, you know how upset I was. And so anyway, so one of the other people in the class, because I thought that maybe the keys fell into Didi's collapsible crate. So they unzippered her crate and they went in it and she lost it on them

and came bolting out of her crate. And I said, what? Because I mean, I worked so hard at getting that dog to be okay in a crate because when she was apprehended, she was in a crate and it was a disaster. I said, what? And she says, Oh, she says, Bubbles, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I said, okay, well, you know, I said, well, you know, thankfully for yourself, you didn't tell me that night because I might've, you know, I said, I can't imagine how I said, but now at least I have perspective and I can laugh about it. And it gives me a reason why Didi's acting like this. So I feel better knowing that it wasn't something that was just superstitiously triggered. It was an actual event. And she says, yeah, she says, I feel so bad. And, but I had to get her a brand new agility crate and I had to get her a brand new car crate. There was no way. And those are the differences between a PTSD dog and just a dog that's afraid of something. You know, eventually a dog that's afraid of something with some desensitization and counter conditioning, you can pretty much get over almost anything. But the PTSD dog, it's just, it's done. You just got to move on and you got to let it go. And, and just it's like, Nope, that's done. We got to go and we got to get something else. So was it really Didi that kind of got you interested in PTSD and dogs? Oh, yes, it was. It really was because I had no, um, I had never seen a dog like that before, ever in my career. I had seen dogs that were afraid of things. I had seen dogs that were aggressive. I had seen dogs that were overexcitable. But I had never seen a dog going to a catatonic state before. And I remember, you know, just the feeling of helplessness. And I remember researching and I remember thinking there has to be an answer to get this dog through this. And there was no information available. And, and then I remember when I would, when I first started taking her out when she was okay, where I could actually get a harness on her. And I could put a leash on her without her just totally staying in a, in a fetal position. Um, and taking her out to other places where there was other dog trainers. And they would say, well, all you need to do is, you know, just, um, just counter condition and desensitize. She'll be fine. And of course, that's not what the dog needed. And, and thankfully, I always thought I knew more than they did. And I never did do any of that with her. Um, and then as time passed and I started really paying attention to what her triggers were,

what her insulators were. And I started to, uh, the other thing that I did was I started to, um, research PTSD and people because people could give account of what it was and how they felt. And I talked to psychologists, like people, psychologists. And, uh, so I, I talked to them and I said, you know, I've got this dog, like what exactly does this mean when she does this? Or what do you think? And, and they explained it to me. They explained to me about flashbacks and things like that. And, um, uh, kind of like as a hijacking of the brain. And I said, okay, now that, that makes sense. It's like a nightmare. You can't escape. You can't awake, you can't wake up from. And so what I did was then I learned to, um, I looked at all the things that Didi loved and the things that made her happy and the things that would empower her. So every single day I took opportunity to create events that were empowering for her. And, um, as a result of that, what it did was it didn't fix the PTSD per se, but what it did do is it gave her confidence in a way that she never had before. Because when she first came to me, she was suffering from learned helplessness. And, um, and so therefore no matter what, no matter what it was, it wasn't good, right? No matter what happened, it really wasn't good other than food and eating. And then being the type of dog she has, her prey drive eventually came out and I took every opportunity with that prey drive to make that a big thing. So we spent a lot of time in the woods with her being able to chase rabbits with the other dogs. And, um, fortunately we have a lot of squirrels in our neighborhood. And so when she would be barking her head off at squirrels and climbing the fence, instead of having a conniption fit, I would go out and I would be a part of it with her, I would support her in it and tell her she was a good girl. And I eventually was able to transfer the, um, her drive for squirrels to stuffed squirrels to start having her play tug with me and playing with me and getting her to follow me and transition into things like that. Um, so it was a very, it was a very slow process and it, and I just so much of the time I felt like I was in the dark. And then when I decided that, you know, kind of sometimes in your, when you're dealing with a case, you have to just figure out, okay, I am the expert in this right now. This is all this dog's got and I have to do the best that I can possibly do and minimize the harm that I'm going to create. Because every single day with a dog with PTSD, there's things that you're going to have to do

that are really hard on that dog. You know, like a lot of PTSD dogs, doorways are traumatic because something happens on the other side of that doorway that they don't like or that they're anticipating. So even just getting the dog in and out of the house, um, or going from a, uh, one room to another room and things like that. And most days I really tried to take my time, but some days I had to just leave. So I would just have to pick her up and I would have to move her from one room to another or take her from outside, inside, you know, but I always knew that there was fallout associated with that, but at least I knew where the fallout was coming from. Um, so, and then I just started really, you know, paying attention to what really bothered her and what really, what did she really like? And, and I, I always just tried to stack it into what she really liked and to minimize the episodes. And as time went on, I got really good at it. And I really started to realize, um, and pinpoint what most of her triggers were. I mean, still some days, I think that we still get some triggers that I'm not quite sure what it was. Um, but overall, I believe that we've managed it very, very well, but it was never a head on. It was always from the side. It's always been building confidence. Um, I remember when I first started training her, like really like working with her, um, as in giving her food for something other than just sustenance. And I thought, wow, well, she's at that point now where maybe she can handle some quicker training because she wasn't sound sensitive. And, but keep in mind, I always had to have another dog or two around when I would work with her. So then you, you can potentially have some food aggression, right? So there was always these tight ropes that I was walking. And, but the very first thing that I ever, ever, ever rewarded her for was tail set because her tail was always so far up under her belly that, um, what I did was I had her in the kitchen with me with some of the other dogs and, um, the other dogs, I could get the other dogs happy very easily. You know, I just talk funny or whatever. And they'd wag their tails or some of them. I actually have it on cue wag your tail and she would lose herself in her tail would kind of drop a little bit. And the moment that her tail would drop and her ears would get a little bit better, I would just click and feed her. And eventually I was able to shape her to bring her tail up and wag it. Um, so that was the very, very, very first thing that I ever did. And then after that,

I shaped her for her ears to go from Yoda ears to normal ears. And then it was both, it was the ears and the tail. And then, um, and then I also worked on her. She is very, she could, I mean, in a word, she's kind of frenetic, like she loves movement and she loves to move. And my house isn't that big. So the other thing that I shaped her to do, which she absolutely loves to this day is stomp her feet. So she can move without actually having to run around and she stomps her feet and I've got it on cue and I'll say, okay, stomp your feet. And she stomps her feet. She does this little tap dance and she's so happy. Um, but that was something that I shaped her to do. Um, and then there were behaviors that were really hard on me that she would do. Um, she had this, one of the things that she did was, and it was when she was, it would be like an anxiety attack. And what she would do is she would start jumping up at me, but clawing at me. It was like, she was desperately clawing at me. She was, and, um, and I couldn't push her away. I couldn't turn away. I couldn't do anything because she needed my support at that moment. So then I just started learning how to dress appropriately, you know, kind of like in Kevlar and, uh, and, and let her do it until she could calm down. But then as I started working with her more and everything was being shaped that I did with her, then what I was able to do was I was able to interrupt her with the clicker and food. And I changed the behavior from obsessively jumping up on me to jumping up and touching my hand. So she still got the jumping up, like the vertical up and down, but then we were able to actually transition it to a target, which was my hand. And I use my hand as the target because I always have it with me. So when I noticed that she's starting to get a little antsy, I can say, okay, touch, touch, touch, touch. And she'll jump up and, and obsessively, like she can jump up 20 times as high as my head and touch my hand. But it, but instead of trying to stop the behavior, which is something she needs to do at that very second to expel whatever anxious energy she's got, all that I did was I changed it to something else that she could do that wasn't going to hurt me. And so those are the kinds of things I think that with PTSD dogs that you have to really think about. So they're doing this behavior. It's not really all that fabulous. Is there some way for you to modify the behavior where the dog is still going to get the release that it needs at that moment to feel safe? And, you know, because like I say, coming from a training background,

we're all about training the dog, what we want it to do, right. And replacing behaviors and things like that. So with her, it was all about looking at who she was and what she was doing and why she was doing it. And I think the biggest word that I had to really say to myself every single day was accept, accept this, accept that. You have to accept her behavior in this respect. You have to accept her behavior in that respect. You have to accept that she is the way that she is. And you have to move forward with that. It doesn't matter how much you wish she understood how much you love her and that this is a safe environment. You have to accept that she is afraid. You have to accept that sometimes you're not going to understand why she's afraid, that what's triggered her. And move forward like that. And again, that's another one of those things with PTSD that the sooner you can accept that dog, given those circumstances, you're just going to move so much more forward faster with that dog because you're not getting hung up on things and you're not personalizing it. That was the other thing that I had to learn how to do was not personalize her behavior. She wasn't doing something because of me. It was just who she was and her life experiences. And something was happening internally, cognitively and emotionally with her that I couldn't reach her. So being able to accept that was another big deal. And the other thing that was really hard that I had to accept was, I mean, here I am, Barbara Lloyd, this big time dog trainer, right? Like I have a radio show. I do all this stuff and I'm in public with this dog that is not behaved. And I had to take her place. And, um, and I didn't want to tell people exactly what happened to her, where her circumstances originated. So there were many times when I took her out in public to other classes, because the only time I could ever work with her was in a class. And owning my own business, I'm the teacher. So I couldn't take her to my own classes. I was able to take her somewhere else. And I would literally have to park my pride outside and take her in and accept whatever it was that she was going to do and pick it up on my way out, knowing what I did, I did for her. And I didn't, I, and I just had to get to a point where I didn't care what people were saying about me, you know, Oh, geez, here, she's supposed to be this big time dog trainer. Did you see how badly behaved her dog was? It wouldn't stop jumping up on her. So, so it's kind of things like that, you know, when you, you really have to look at what is best for

the dog and why are you doing what you're doing and feel good about that and forget about what other people are thinking, forget about what other people are trying to tell you to do. Because a lot of the times, a lot of the times I actually think that a person's innate instincts are correct when it comes to their dog. I think that if their instincts are telling them the dog just needs space right now, the dog needs space. I think that if people listen to that, a lot of the times they're probably going to do the right thing. But as a society, we're so invested in telling everybody what to do, when to do it, how to do it and how everybody should behave. And, but I think anybody who lives with a dog that suffers some emotional trauma and they have an open heart and an open mind. I think that if they really listen, they know innately in that moment what the dog needs. And unfortunately, there's a lot of trainers out there that say, you're just babying that dog. You're just this, you're just that, you're whatever. And you just got to get a thick skin and you just have to say, oh, well, thank you for your opinion. I'll think about that. And you leave. Fair enough. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't actually realize, you know, kind of until I started doing some research for our call that they've, you know, observed signs analogous to PTSD and all sorts of mammals. So like they've seen it in mice and in rats and, you know, obviously dogs as well. So I know PTSD usually requires some pretty extreme trauma. We've kind of talked about that a little bit. Is there any sense of how common it is in dogs? Not really. It's kind of that thing that people really don't talk about because it's kind of one of those things that in training circles, you know, it's kind of one of those things that, well, you're just trying to humanize the dog. So it really isn't talked about. And the other thing is, is I think that there's still, even though as far as we have progressed as fancy people and in other venues and other people we train with, I think, I still believe that there is still a heavy, heavy, heavy influence from way back in Descartes state. Rene Descartes, he believed that any animal other than a human being didn't experience any pain or emotion. And so therefore, there's a lot of false beliefs out there about animals being only in the moment. And therefore, if a behavior is being exhibited in that moment, it's very, very much just for that moment. And so I think that it isn't really discussed because it's not really, it's not accepted. And the other thing is because people don't know about it

and they don't understand it, they're reluctant to talk about it. It's like that in human circles as well. People, even in human circles, people say, oh, PTSD, it's all just in their mind. Yeah, it is just in their mind. But guess what? It has profound effects on their quality of life. And just because people, certain people have never experienced it, they lack the empathy to be able to understand what somebody else is going through. And that includes animals, I think. So there isn't a lot of discussion about it. So when I was, I was given the opportunity to talk about it on this venue, in an international setting, I jumped at the chance because I thought, wow, finally, this is going to get, there's people out there that have these animals, and they don't know what to do with them. And they're lost. And they're getting bad advice. And they're being told they're spoiling their animals. Or they're being told to do things that is actually making the PTSD worse. And they know that the animal is getting worse, but they don't know what to do. So I was so pleased when I was given this opportunity. 90% I was very pleased, but there was also a 10% of me that was petrified because that I was going to have to revisit everything about Dee Dee. And there were so many things that I put to rest over that case. And, but I'm just so pleased that I get the opportunity to talk about this, because I really think that we can have a positive impact on handlers and their dogs by talking about this topic, because it really is, there's so much that's not talked about. So thank you for giving me this opportunity. Yeah, absolutely. You know, kind of for those out there listening, who maybe have a dog that's dealt with some sort of trauma, or they have a dog who they're, you know, struggling a little bit to kind of find the right path forward. Do you have any, you know, some words of advice or some words of encouragement to kind of help them out? I think that the biggest thing is to, first off, give yourself a break. When you're dealing with an animal that has an emotional trauma in their background, it is exhausting for an owner slash handler. Because you're always on, you're on as much as that animal is on. And it is exhausting. And you have to give yourself permission to take a break. And sometimes that just means putting that dog in a bedroom behind a closed door or putting it in a crate. And you watching a movie without having to worry about what is the dog going to do. And the other thing, I think that the biggest piece of advice I can give most people

about a dog that suffered an emotional trauma. Less is more. Let the dog be. Don't smother it. Any, any kind of attention, oftentimes that you give a dog that's suffering from PTSD, any attention, whether it, it doesn't matter the intention, it could be intention can be complete love and compassion. But the fact that you're projecting that energy onto that dog is putting pressure on them. And oftentimes it becomes a punisher instead of a positive. And really what they need is they need freedom to look, observe, and be without being noticed. The biggest thing they need almost is invisibility and granting that animal the capacity to be invisible and be in the environment without you paying attention to them. And that's really hard as trainers. Because most of us that come to this, we are trainers or we're trainers at heart. We might not train for a living, but you're a trainer at heart. And what you want to do is you think I can fix this. I can fix this. I can fix this. And sometimes the fix is doing nothing. So those are the biggest pieces of advice I think that I would give people just off the top of my head. You're doing a webinar for us on this stuff on the 20th. Is there anything else that folks should know to help them decide if that's something they might want to join? I think the biggest thing for people to join, if you are involved in any type of humane society, or you are involved in any type of rescue, I think that this would be a relative topic for you. If you happen to have a dog or a family member has a dog that seems to have some emotional difficulties that are extremely resistant to counter conditioning and desensitization, this is the talk for you. This really is the talk for you. Because dogs that are resistant to counter conditioning and desensitization, that's one of the hallmarks of PTSD. Because it doesn't matter what you do when the dog is afraid, whether or not you bring something out as a low level stimulus, dogs with PTSD are always resistant to counter conditioning and desensitization, because there's no way to desensitize it because their brain is being hijacked. Or if you are a pet professional and you do get inquiries about dogs, and you have worked with dogs like this in the past, but you feel like you would like to know more or you want to be in a more supportive environment, sign up. I mean, I do not have all the answers, but I certainly have worked with PTSD dogs, um, Dee Dee being my, my known first. And since, um, I've also worked with other PTSD dogs, like some of the other dogs that I've worked with that have PTSD are dogs

that came from a hoarding situation that were adopted by the same couple, but six months apart. And in my talk, I'm going to talk about the differences between those two dogs because of their first six months experience in the outside world and how it was handled. And to this day, they are fundamentally, um, different dogs because of the early experiences that they were subjected to. Um, and so it's quite fascinating that just how you interact with these animals in the beginning and the amounts of pressure you put on them, how much of an impact that has. So, um, um, yeah, like I say, if you work in rescue, if you're in a humane society, if you are interested in working with behavior, not just mechanical behavior, you know, sit down, come, um, teaching skills like that. But if you have an acute interest in dog behavior and helping people with difficult dogs, this, this talk, I'm sure you would find beneficial. Awesome. To wrap things up, there are, um, three questions I usually ask guests the first time they're on. Um, so the first one is, uh, what's the dog related accomplishment that you're proudest of? Oh my goodness. Um, I think I, you know what, I think that the dog related accomplishment that I am most, um, proud of is, uh, is my hurting with Dory, with Dory time. I mean, she's a mutt. She is a bonafide mutt from a reservation and she's got no pedigree. She, and yet, oh my goodness, can that dog herd. And I just feel like on top of the world, every time I walk out into an arena with that dog and I heard with her, I think that's amazing. That's awesome. Next, next one here is, what's the best piece of training advice that you've ever heard? Train the dog in front of you. And I think, you know, it's cliche, probably, you know, 99.9% of trainers say that, but it's the honest to goodness truth. If you don't train the dog that's in front of you, you got nothing. You're not training the dog that you had yesterday or the dog you had last year, or even the dog you had two minutes ago. You got to train the dog that's in front of you. And that's the only way forward. Last one here. And that's, who is somebody else in the dog world that you look up to? Sue Elsie. Yeah, she was my mentor. Um, she truly, um, she has gifted me with more knowledge, more patience. Um, it is amazing. Like I can't, I couldn't even probably make a list of all the things that she has done for me. Um, so definitely Sue Ailsby. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Barbara. This has been great. Thank you for having me. I, this was just awesome. Thank you so much.

And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with our new FDSA alumni moderators to talk about their background and a bit about their new roles. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.