E174: 헬렌 로울러(Helene Lawler) - "민감한 개 훈련하기"

So putting two or three in a car and driving to a swimming hole and swimming with them and things like that that I haven't done in a very long time. So getting back to the joy of having dogs rather than it being all about training and competing and stuff like that. So that's been actually a really good time to fight the heat. That's awesome. So I invited you on today because I want to talk about sensitive dogs to kind of start us out. Just what is a sensitive dog? What are we talking about here? That's a great question. Okay. So in my humble opinion, all dogs are sensitive dogs. They all have this. They're all born very sensitive. And they learn how to function in the world. And they learn how to be able to predict how their behavior is going to impact them as they go through life. And when they have a fair bit of confidence that their own behavior is going to result in good things, a lot of that sort of sensitivity starts to fade in the sense of how we perceive them as being sensitive. So when I say a sensitive dog in terms of like the teams that I work with, I'm talking about a dog who has sort of big feelings about what's going on around them. And they'll have exaggerated what we consider exaggerated responses. So basically, kind of in a nutshell, we can say that a sensitive dog is a dog who makes what we would consider a big deal out of something that we think shouldn't be a big deal. Of course, the dog's perspective is very different. But I work with people who have dogs that they just can't accomplish things they want to do with their dogs, be that, you know, getting titles or training in sports or even just going about their daily life and enjoying their life with their dog as a companion because of the dog's inability to cope with the environment or the training or the learning. And so what we end up seeing are dogs who typically I would consider a dog who stresses up and shows like big arousal. But what we typically in the sport world is as high arousal issues. I would say those dogs are sensitive as well. But when I talk about, you know, a sensitive dog, most people take that as being a dog who will shut down, who will freeze, who will quit, who will sort of melt like butter on a hot day around when you're trying to train or bring them into a new environment or do things with them. And so that's when I say sensitive dog. I kind of differentiate a little bit between sensitive dogs and the worked up dogs in that sense. The worked up dogs are the ones that have what we would call the high stress, barky, lungy reactivity in an outward burst.

And what we would put into the sensitive dog bucket would be the dog that does the opposite, shut down, quit, freezes, runs away. If we're working with one of those dogs, you know, what can we really do to help them, you know, bring out their best side? That's a great question. I actually, I love working with sensitive dogs. Because they give us this fantastic opportunity to really hone our own skills in training and become more aware of ourselves and of our dogs and of the environment. Like, you just have to really up your game across the board. And it's a wonderful opportunity to do that. And I have basically a five-pronged approach that I take to working with sensitive dogs that I have honed because I have a house full of them. So I had to, I sort of sat down and broke down, like, what are my different strategies? So I have basically five strategies. The very first one is working on myself and my own mindset and how I perceive the situation and understand the situation. That's really, really important. I then look at arousal issues with the dog and sort of try and figure out what is triggering their arousal. I look for poison cues, which play a huge role in the reactions that sensitive dogs have, specifically to training, but also to the environment. I then want to build in consent and choice. And then finally, if there are situations where I can't use any of the above strategies to manage the situation, I work on management. So sometimes you just have to, like, put your head down and get through. So I have management strategies as well. So to recap, it's mindset, arousal, poison cues, consent and choice, and management strategies. Awesome. And I've got a couple of questions here on each of those. I kind of want to start with arousal just because that's, you know, the popular buzzword these days. What role does arousal play when we're talking about training or living with one of these dogs? Okay, so arousal is really, really important to understand how it works when working with a sensitive dog because a lot of people misunderstand what they're seeing in their dog's reaction. So very briefly, there's a relationship between arousal and performance. And as arousal goes up, you're going to see performance improve to a certain point. And then as arousal continues to go up, you're going to see performance decrease. And that decrease in performance is a cue to us when we have, that we've gone too high into arousal.

So now one of the, it's very, very obvious when that happens when you have a worked up dog because the dog will start to, you know, get barky, lungy, spinny, crash through jumps, do, you know, go off course, lose what they're doing and get kind of over late. So we see these, like, big responses. But with a sensitive dog, what we see are dogs who start to shut down and quit and, or freeze. And what a lot of, what ends up happening is this is often misinterpreted as being in low arousal. And so a lot of people will then think that the answer to a dog who is shutting down is to try and jack them up some more. And that, I see that all the time. I've done it myself before I understood this. So you start trying to get them jacked up more and more and more and the dog just shuts down and, like, quits and they'll leave. And so what's important to understand is we have, when arousal goes up, you have the fight, fight, fight, flight response. So that's what we see when the worked up dogs, we have the fight response, right, barky, lungy, reactivity. We might see the flight response where they, we just, like, they get the zoomies or they might, like, run under the ring. But we also have the freeze response. And that is, like, kind of the highest end of arousal is when a dog freezes. And that is often misinterpreted for low arousal. And then we handle it wrong. So that's where it's really important to understand the difference. That what we're looking at in a sensitive dog who's shutting down and quitting, that they are in a freeze response of high arousal, not a low arousal situation. And so to handle that is going to be a very different approach than if the dog was in a low arousal situation, which would be they're just kind of, like, sleeping or chilling out or just not that interested. So that's the difference. And a dog like that, then you would want to increase their arousal. But a sensitive dog in a freeze who's frozen, we absolutely want to reduce arousal, not increase it. Interesting. So I'm trying to picture the chart. So you're kind of describing a typical bell curve, right, where it starts low. And then it goes up and then it goes back down. Yes, exactly. The York Dodson Law, if anybody's familiar with that, that's what I'm talking about. And then arousal is along kind of the bottom axis, right? Correct. What's on the other one? Performance. Okay. It's performance and arousal. And as arousal goes up, we go slowly up and then we peak and then we go back down. That's right. That's what you described. So there's an optimal level of arousal that we want for performance.

And that actually, that optimal arousal is way lower than most people think, which is a whole other discussion. And a whole other course. You know, I've got like a six-week course where that's all I talk about. There's a lot to dig into there. But yeah, we have this window of optimal arousal that is actually relatively close to neutral. And most of us think we need to be operating in high arousal and we don't. And that's where we end up with a lot of problems, both with the worked up dogs and with the sensitive dogs. One of the other kind of factors that you mentioned that kind of in your five-step approach there was poison cues. So I want to talk about that too. I'd imagine that it's probably much easier to accidentally poison a cue with a dog who is a little more sensitive. And that's probably true both for what people typically think of a cue, like a verbal sit or down, as it is for maybe an environmental cue where the dog becomes anxious about places or spaces. Can you talk about that a bit? Maybe just start with how do you define a poison cue? Absolutely. So first of all, I love that you've already highlighted that cues are not just verbals because we often think of a cue as just the word that comes out of our mouth. But cues can be all sorts of things. And so cues can be, you know, a specific environment. It can be a person. It can be the clothing we wear. It could be the way we stand. It could be a piece of training equipment. It could be the time of day. It could be just like it's so multifaceted. So we have to be aware of all of these different things. And they're basically signals to our dogs that help them predict what's going to come next. And so we also need to differentiate between, so a cue in our sort of in the positive dog training world is something that predicts a positive reinforcement coming. And so it predicts a good thing. A command, if we're giving commands, which we would, that would be the more traditional term. A command is something that predicts that, you know, you're going to get in trouble if you don't do something. So that's the language differentiation here. So if you have, if you give your dog a cue, so for example, I would say sit as a cue, that means you have an opportunity to earn a cookie. That's your positive reinforcement. So in that term, the word sit is a cue. If I'm using sit as a command, sit then would be, you better sit or you're going to be in trouble. So the dog is sitting to avoid being in trouble as opposed to earning a cookie. So that's the difference between a cue and a command. Cue is earn the cookie.

Command is avoid getting in trouble for not doing the thing. So what a poisoned cue is, a poisoned cue is a discriminative signal. So I'm trying to, a cue. It's a signal to the dog that is both a command and a cue. So, so for example, if you say, you say sit to your dog and if the dog sits, it gets a cookie. But if it doesn't sit, you're going to push its bum down in which the dog doesn't enjoy. Some dogs don't care. But let's say you've got a sensitive dog doesn't like that. Then the word sit starts to become, give them some anxiety. Because, especially if they don't have clarity over what the word means. So you're first teaching it and the, the dog, you know, is like, oh, what was that? What did that mean again? And then all of a sudden the, your hand goes on the back and pushes the bum down, which we don't think is a big deal. Right? I don't know about you, but like, I trained that along, you know, that was, that was the way you taught dogs when I started out. So, so anyway, so then, then the dog starts saying, well, that, that, that, that word is starts to get scary. And then the dog starts to breathe. So that's how, that's how we typically end up creating poison cues. A very simple example that I think many of us can relate to is the phone ringing. Now, I know, like, this was more of an issue before we had call display. But let's say you have your, your phone rings, your phone buzzes, and it's an unknown number and there's got a call block. Right? So the discriminative, the discriminative signal, the cue is the phone is ringing. And you look at that phone and you're like, if I answer that phone, is it going to be someone I want to talk to? Or is it a bill collector? Right? So the, the, the, then the phone, if you're, you know, if you don't worry about bill collectors, because you don't have any, or you don't worry about telemarketers or whatever, like that doesn't bother you, then you answer the phone. But if you are somebody who worries that maybe, or maybe it's, you know, like a person you don't want to hear from or whatever. Right? If you don't know, if you think that it's possible that the, that there's going to be bad news on that phone, then you start to feel this bit of angst. And you're going to just sit there and look at your phone and you're not going to do anything. So the, the, the ringing of the phone has become a poison cue. And that can generalize, you know, maybe some, some people can relate to this, but that can generalize to like the phone becoming a poison cue. And you don't even want to look at your phone or, or, or whatever, anytime it rains.

So it's really easy for things like that to generalize and spread throughout, throughout training. Um, and there are lots and lots of examples in, in our dog training and I can, I can offer a few, a few like me to, to get some more clarity on poison cues. Yeah. I mean, I'd love another example, but, but before you, uh, kind of jump into that, I think the phone example is so, um, so illustrative, right? Because I think most people can kind of empathize with that. Right. I think, I think there are a lot of people out there who, uh, who your phone ringing, especially in today's world where so many people text or message or something else, you know, it's very easy for an actual ringing, a phone call to become, um, you know, a telemarketer or spam or a bill collector, uh, and kind of the, for that association to form. And then, and then suddenly you don't want to answer phone calls. And again, that's not something where something super bad is happening, right? It's not like somebody shocking you every time you answer the phone. It's not like, you know, you're experiencing physical pain every time somebody answers the phone. It's just a bad feeling. And so I liked it, that, um, kind of, it's a good reminder that sometimes it's not, it's not that pushing your dog's bum down was the worst thing in the world. It's that, uh, you know, for that dog, it's just, it's just not a pleasant experience. Exactly. And then they start to, you start to associate that. So just like, I don't know how many people I know who say, Oh God, I hate talking. I hate talking about it. Don't call me. Text me or message me. Don't call me. I hate this. Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, so that's, that's, um, I think an example that many of us can, uh, can relate to. Um, did you want to give us one more dog, dog example? Just cause I think. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so another, uh, so there's lots of examples in the dog world. I see it all the time. Um, I think one that many of us who do agility can, can relate to is teaching start line stays. And, um, a lot of what I have witnessed and what I have done myself, um, for teaching a start line stay, uh, a little bit, I, I generally approach them very, very differently. So that's a whole different discussion, but, um, but, but I have tried this and that, and it didn't work. And, and I didn't even realize it was a poison cue. I just found other ways that worked. And so that's why I do them. Um, but looking back, I now know. So, so you, you have your dog, um, in, you know, in a start line stay in front of a jump. And then, um, you, you try to set the dog up to break their stay, right?

So you have a toy out and if the dog breaks the stay, they, um, you die forward and grab the toy so they can't get it. Uh, and so the dog, um, loses their, their reinforcer because they broke the stay. And a lot of dogs don't understand the association between their movement and losing the toy. Um, and so they don't know how to earn that cookie and they're afraid that if they do something wrong, they're going to lose their, their cookie or their toy or whatever. So then we end up with, cause you end up with dogs who start to freeze at the start line and then you release them and they're like, ah, not moving. Cause they're like, I don't know what to do. And we think that, you know, and we don't understand that that's what's going on for them. And then we get, we, you know, then we have to, um, try to get them aroused and we start doing arousal stuff to try and like get them more excited. And then the dog just like shrinks more and more and just like start, then the whole going to the start line, the dog just doesn't even want to go there. So, um, so that's, we, we start off with the training, creating a poison cue. And then, then just going to the start line, get poisoned. And then you end up with dogs who, who just don't want to run. And, and so that's, that can be a big problem. So that's, I think that's a very common poison cue that people don't recognize as a poison cue. How can people actually tell, you know, you're looking at something like that behavior, where you have a behavior where the dog's not doing what you want them to do. How can you tell if it's a poison cue or if there's something else going on? And then, you know, if we decide it is a poison cue, what can we do about it? Okay, sure. So if it's a poison cue, it can be a little tricky to identify. A lot of times it's just not even on our radar. So once you have it on your radar, you're going to start seeing poison cues all over the place, but we'll typically see a stress response to the cue. So for example, if I say sit and my dog is standing and doesn't move and, and maybe looks away or starts sniffing the ground or licks their lips or, um, shuffles their feet or wanders off or goes into their crate, all of those things, any kind of avoidance or freeze, um, or stress response, then we have to go, hmm, maybe there's a poison cue here. So you sometimes have to do a little bit of sleuthing and often you can just, you, you, you watch the dog response if you see a, like a freeze response or a stress response to the cue and the cue can be the verbal or the cue can be the environment or the cue can be the piece of equipment

and all the things we already mentioned. Um, so we have to, you have to kind of break that down too and figure it out. So often you have to do a bit of triage. So for example, if I find like in my training center and I ask my dog to sit and I get the stress response, well, do I get that stress response in my kitchen? Do I get my stress response in the yard? And if the answer is no, but I get the stress response in the training hall, then the training hall context is what I need to be looking at. It's not the word sit that's causing the stress. It's sit in the training hall. So you have to start kind of doing a little, you know, onion layer peeling to try and figure out where the, what the actual stress response is. So it can get a little bit tricky, but just being aware of the fact that when you see stress responses, that's a good, uh, it's like signal that you have a, um, a poison cue that you want to work with. Um, then, then you have to do the triage to figure out what part of, what part of this whole sort of complex, uh, antecedent arrangement, and that you're providing for the dog is the part that's poison. And sometimes it can just be the, um, the word. And if it's just the word, you can retrain using a different word. And that's the simplest, uh, thing that you can do. If it's the context, then there's more work to be done. Um, and we can talk more about the more, the, you know, that's when we get into the consent and choice stuff. Um, and then sometimes it, we need to retrain, uh, using, um, just much cleaner training strategies and clearer communication with our dogs. So they understand. And often in that case, if you retrain using clear, uh, communication, better mechanics and all of that, and a new word, uh, you'll get, um, you'll, you'll, you can, you can work through it pretty quickly. Like I, I had a student recently who just changed the word and did like one session. Of the same exact training with slightly cleaner mechanics and a different word. And boom, had the behavior, no problem. Um, so, so sometimes it can be super, super easy to fix. And sometimes it can be much more complicated. You kind of teased the idea of consent and control in there. So I want to talk about that next. Um, can you just share a bit about, uh, the role that those things play when you're working with a sensitive dog? Absolutely. So, yeah. So, so when things are complicated, if it's, if it's the, the context, so I'll give the example of my wonderful Aoife, who is a beautiful, talented sheepdog who has amazing abilities to read sheep because she's incredibly sensitive. It makes going through life challenging for her as a youngster. Um,

now that she's older, she's a lot better, but as a young pup, she was just sensitive to everything. And the biggest challenge, uh, I had with her, and there were many, was having her come through doorways. And so, you know, changing the verbal cue didn't make any difference because it wasn't, it wasn't the cue, the verbal cue that was the problem. It was actual doorways. And so, you know, how do I get the dog to come into the house when doorways are poisoned? Doorways got poisoned because unbeknownst to me, I would call her in and one of my dogs would be behind me and giving, giving her the death stare, um, as border collies do with their telepathy. And so, she became very, um, worried about coming through doorways. So, what do you do when you have a dog who's afraid of like a physical structure you can't change? Um, so, so what I had to do with her was build in consent to let her know, to let, give her control of the doorway because she felt she didn't have control. She felt that, I mean, I don't know what she felt. I'm, I am projecting onto her. Um, I could, you know, reading her body language and her reactions. She was afraid to come in the doorway, presumably because she felt that the other dog was controlling the door. And that she, if she came in, she was at risk of, um, getting more, you know, Vulcan death stares from the other dogs. Like they don't fight her. They didn't beat her up or anything, but that was all it took was the pressure for her. That was very, you know, for me, it's like, it's no big deal. She's staring at you, like get over it. Right. That would be a typical response. Um, but for Aoife, it's a huge deal, a huge deal. And I had to respect that. Um, so to, so what I had to do is I had to give her control over the door. Which I built this whole for Chris consent protocol, um, where I wouldn't even touch the door to close it until she came in and gave me her signal that she was comfortable in the house. Until that point, the door stayed open. She comes and goes in and out of the house all the time with the door open. And when she feels comfortable, she comes, comes, sits in front of me and puts, goes into a sit, like a front position. And when that, when her bum goes on the ground, that's her telling me, okay, you can close the door now. And then I reach over and close the door. So I had to work through this whole protocol with her to, first of all, to explain to her that that would be the case that she has control and then figure out, um, how she could communicate to me when she was comfortable. So that, that took a little bit of, uh, figuring out, but now we have a really nice routine. And, um, you know, she's free.

And I would say 80% of the time comes through the doors without having to, um, go through that. And sometimes we still need to, and she gets to, she gets to decide. She, she will, she lets me know by, she pokes her head into the doorway and stands there and looks at me. And it's sort of like, mama, get out the cheese. I need, so yeah, I need some help. And, and one of the things that I had to do while I figured this out and develop this and train her with this, you know, we had this training, um, uh, you know, she and I worked it out together. And that's one of the things that, that, um, I think really exciting about consent work is that the dog really is a partner. So she really like was a very much a two way street. I didn't really know how to even approach it. I just, it was like a back and forth until we figured out a system. But, uh, while I did that, I had to completely change the context of having her come in the house. And what I ended up doing was opening a window on my ground floor and putting a big like crate outside of it. So she could jump up on the crate and through the window because the windows weren't, weren't poison. She could come in and up into a room where there weren't any other dogs. So that's how I got her out of the house while I worked through this problem. So I had to actually, and that's, we'll talk a little bit more about management strategy. Sometimes you have to just manage things, right? So I'm like, okay, I let the dog in through the window, um, as you know, unorthodox as that is, that's what she needs for a little bit. Well, we figure out this, this consent and choice protocol. And the reason that, Oh, sorry, go ahead. That's okay. I was going to say, since, since, since we're, we're getting there anyway, like, let's talk about that more. Let's just, um, let's talk about those cases where you can't give the dog the choice. Go for it. Okay. Yeah. So I just want to quickly wrap up the reason why, why consent and choice works for, for sensitive dogs, but for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, for, poison is because, uh, the dog doesn't know how her own behavior is going to affect her. She doesn't know if like, if I, if I do X, it's something good going to happen or something bad going to happen. So they don't feel they have any control over the outcome. And it's like, if you think about it, if you were lying in bed in the morning and you've got up and we, we stand up and we put our feet on the ground, we know gravity is going to hold us to the ground. Right. We don't even think about it. But if, if we didn't know that gravity was, if gravity wasn't predictable, if we didn't know, like if I put my feet on the ground,

am I going to get sucked upside down and stuck to the ceiling? Like that's an extreme example, but it's like, we just, there's so much about our daily life that we just know how our own behavior is going to affect us, you know? And, but when we don't know how our behavior is going to out the outcome, that's what creates the poison cue. So when we teach, give our dog, you know, these consent, uh, protocols where they can take back the control, that's how we get through the poison cue. So if you have, if you have, if it's just a matter of giving them a new word, then that's a really easy, um, thing to teach. But if the, if the context is cute and poison, then giving the dog control over how, how they can behave and what the outcome is going to be, that, that will cure the poison cue. And so you can get a dog to, um, uh, to go in, you know, to involve themselves in things that, that they originally felt scary when they didn't feel they had any control. And husbandry is a fantastic, uh, example of that. Um, even just, you know, holding out their nail foot to be, have their nails trimmed, um, and then pulling their foot away when they want it to stop. And, you know, like if I had a button to tell my dentist when to stop drilling, as opposed to, you know, I'd feel a lot more, a lot more confident about going to the dentist. Right. So that's, that's the whole idea of why the giving them consent and choice will, um, fix poison cues. Now, there are times we cannot do that. Right. Like Aoife, for example, she hates going in the car. And, um, that's actually something I'm working on now that it's hot and I can just take her to the swimming hole. Uh, so that's going to hopefully help go a long way, but I've got a protocol to get her in and out of the car where she has total choice and consent. But there are times when she just has to get in the car. So what I do in that situation is I make sure that it looks so much different from our consent context that it's a whole different scenario for her. So I'll give you the example, teaching her to get in the car. Uh, I let her out of the house off leash. I'll have cookies and a clicker. I have, I'll go over to the car. Uh, I'll open the door and I'll sit on the ground. And let her replay jump in and out of the car game. So that's, and she gets to choose. And then I'm working on a signal where she can tell me if I'm ready and she'll jump in. Uh, and yes, you can close the crate door. Yes, you can close the car door. So that's our consent protocol. Now, if I need to just like, when I'm going to take her to the swimming hole, um, I like, we're not at the point where she's going to get in the car voluntarily.

And then I'm going to be able to close everything and drive there. And so she can either miss out on swimming or let's say I have to take her to the back or, you know, something like that. So in that case, what I do is my, my whole approach is completely different. Where we start in the house, I put a collar and leash on her, which she never wears going out of the house. Cause I live on a farm and she's got lots of acreage. So the collar and leash immediately tells her something different that's happening. And then I pick her up and I walk straight to the car and I put her in a crate and I close the crate door. So it's just completely different to her. And so that doesn't end up poisoning my consent protocol. Um, because, and so eventually just like having her going in and out the window, um, until I had a real, until the door protocol was really working well, um, I, I'm doing the same thing with the car protocol. So if I need her in the car, collar and leash in the house, pick her up, carry her out to the car, boom, done. Um, and, uh, you know, when we, when eventually I can get her to load up and we can close doors and leave, then I won't do that anymore. Um, or I might do that if I might always maintain that in my back pocket, if there's an emergency situation where I think she's going to give me trouble and I don't have time for it, then we'll just keep that. Um, so yeah, like it's a, you know, let's say I have a fire on the property and I need to get out like instantly. There will be no consent protocol. We'll just scoop up the dog and stop them in the box. Right. Right. But as long as I have time, I want to do the consent protocol, but right now it's not functional. So I will never use it. If I actually am going to try and put her in the car and drive away. If she doesn't have a choice, you're not going to ask. Exactly. Exactly. We've kind of been talking about consent, but I know I've heard, I've definitely heard the advice for dogs who are, you know, less sure about the world around them, that it's important to provide structure. So I'm kind of curious how that, um, kind of meets up with, or what role, if any, that kind of plays, you know, with, or instead of, or, you know, whatever, in, in terms of your approach, um, to working with sensitive dogs. Right. That's a great question. Um, I'm going to say that that's one of those art of training situations. So my general approach to that is that I, I want to use consent and choice wherever I could use consent and choice and the improvement in my dog. There have been times when just being like, no, you're just going to do this. Um, it's just, we just,

we're just going to get this done and do it now. Uh, like, you know, when I just pick her up and carry her out to the car and pop her in the crate, she's fine. Now, if I did that and she was having a total nervous breakdown, that would be a big problem. Right. If I saw, if I saw her stress responses, like go through the ceiling, similarly, I can pick her up outside and just carry her in the house. That's another way when, when it wasn't convenient to bring her into the window. Um, I would, I would just recall her to me with a, with a specific, you know, with a leash in hand. So she knew that what was going to happen next. So it wasn't a surprise. Cause I don't, then I would poison my recall. Right. We hold out a leash, call her to me, put it on, pick her up, carry her in the house. So I, and she would be, as soon as I pick her up, she just relax. She'd be like, okay, it's a problem. Um, and so that was sort of part of like, then I think she knew that if I was carrying her into the house, she was safe and there were no, nobody would be giving her a death stare. So in that sense, just giving that, like, you don't have a choice in this situation. Um, but I'm going to keep you safe. I think that's, what's really important. If we, if we, if we don't, if they're, if they feel unsafe, we're going to have fallout. So we really always have to keep them feeling safe. And so we can provide structure. Structure and routine is really, really important. And I, I have like my dogs have a, you know, very steady routine every day and they have lots of exercise and they have structure and they have their crates. And, and I, I keep, um, I think maybe, maybe routine is, uh, is another way of looking at structure that I think is, um, maybe, maybe it's a slightly better way to frame it. Uh, is just to have a really good predictable routine. Again, what sensitive dogs need is predictability. They need to know, you know, to be able to predict what's happening and what they tend to do. They're really, really, really good at predicting. That's what, that's what makes them, um, sensitive is they are very, very good at predicting. So they can predict when something good, it's going to happen. They can predict when something bad is going to happen. So, you know, you know how you have the dog that can tell the difference between what, what shoes you put on, if it's going to be like, you're going out for hike or if you're leaving to, you know, go to work. Um, and then, you know, a sensitive dog will know, you know, first thing in the morning when you wake up, what clothes you put on. Right. They like long, long before you get to the door to go out. Um, they can, so they're,

they're really good at predicting. It's like, Oh, you know, dress slacks, boring day, um, yoga pants. So, um, when you want to provide structure for your dog, you have to make sure that that structure or that routine is going to be helping them feel safe and feel like good things are coming. That's the, the line to walk is if you want to provide structure for them or, uh, you know, a really good routine. Um, it has to be all things that are predicting positive outcomes for your dog. And if it's something that's going to end up with a negative outcome, you'll want to really break, like, you know, take the dog to the vet and they don't like going to the vet and you're, you don't have time to build all the protocols. Um, you have to break that out of your routine. So you don't end up poisoning your routine. You have to make, make things look different enough. So I think that's, that's really important to become aware of. And so like, like I said, uh, right at the start, we have to become so much more aware of our, what, what we do and our environment and all the things, because these dogs are masterful at predicting and generalizing. And, um, and they're very, very good and quick at it. And so that we have to become, you know, as aware as they are of, of how these work. And that is an incredible gift. It doesn't always feel that way, but it really is. Talking about it doesn't always feel that way. Um, right. You know, working with a sensitive dog can often be hard on the handler too. Um, it can sometimes be easy to feel frustrated or feel like giving up maybe, or, you know, those kinds of things. What role can handler mindset really play in being successful with these dogs? Great question. So, yes. So as I said, working with them is a gift and it doesn't always feel that way. And so working on our mindset so that we can see it as a gift is game changing. Seeing it as, um, a way to improve our skills, a way to, you know, improve, cause you know, anybody who's feeling upset or stressed or frustrated, um, by their sensitive dog behavior feels that way because they really care. They really care a lot. They love their dog. They love training. They, you know, they're, they, they, it really matters. It's an important thing to them. And so, you know, people who don't care, aren't going to be bothered by it. So that's not who we're talking about. Right. So those of us who really care deeply. And so it's very natural to have big feelings about our dogs when they're not performing the way we want. And one of the things that's really common that we tend to do is we tend to make it about us. Right. Like I failed my dog somehow. Uh, even the language of, you know,

I created a poison cube, right. That's, it's my fault. Um, and we need to, work on our own mindset to be able to detach ourselves from the dog so that we recognize that this is not our fault. We are not bad. We are not failures. We are not, um, you know, like the dog, our dog is not trying to punish us. Our dog doesn't hate us. Our dog doesn't, um, you know, is angry or frustrated with us. It's just the dog is trying to communicate to us and we're trying to communicate to our dog. And there's a communication breakdown. And so if we can, uh, work on our mindset to be able to get to a place where we feel neutral about our dog's behavior so that we can, um, look at it objectively. And instead of going, you know, like, Oh my dog, my dog has a meltdown or my dog, you know, hates doing X. Um, you know, let's say like, I'll stick with, you know, agility, go to agility. Your dog melts down. It doesn't want to go up to the start line because you've created a poison cue and you don't realize it. You just think, Oh my dog hates agility. Uh, or my dog hates working with me. Or, you know, we, we, we make all these, um, uh, we do all this analysis around what our dog is, is, uh, thinking of us and, or what it means about us. I'm a failure as a trainer. I can't train this dog. I got this beautiful dog. I can't train it. I must suck. Right. Um, so none of this is true. We just have to, and that's where we have to work on our mindset and just be like, my dog is behaving and all behavior is modifiable. And we need to work on our mindset to get into this very neutral place where we can just go, this is just behavior and all behavior is modifiable. And so what I need is to just under better understand the behavior, come up with a good training protocol and solve this problem. And the result is going to be, I'm going to have a stronger relationship with my dog. I'm going to become a better trainer. This is going to come with me to, um, you know, wherever I go, everything that I learn, I'm going to be able to apply it. And all these new scenarios, I am going to like, this is, this is a gift. So that's the, the mindset shift we need to make. And so that's definitely a huge component of the work that I do with people who come, seem to come to me with, with these issues. Uh, absolutely. It's fundamental to make that shift. Cause I think if you don't have that mindset, it's very, very hard to find the motivation to do the work and to stay open enough to see all the reasons why what's going on is going on. Your class, all this stuff is on the schedule for August. So it's, it's coming up. Um, you know, looking ahead, who should really take the class?

Are there any skills handlers or dogs need before they sign up? Okay. Great question. Um, so the, who should sign up? I think people who are struggling with, uh, dogs that fall into the description of sensitive dogs that I have described. Um, it's also appropriate for dogs that are worked up, but there are courses out there that are more focused straight on those. So, um, those types of dogs, but I, you know, I certainly would welcome somebody who has, uh, dogs that, that have, um, you know, uh, kind of stress high responses as well as stress low responses, but basically dogs who, who are showing signs of poison cues, who are showing, uh, that shutdown, that freeze, um, to, to their training scenarios. Now, one of the things I do want to make, um, just make, make clear that, uh, a lot of people, um, a lot of dogs have noise sensitivity, that we're not going to be doing noise sensitivity protocols. There are like any, there's fantastic work around that. Like there are other, other, other really great resources for that. And so a lot of sensitive dogs do have noise sensitivity because they're sensitive to everything. And that's not something we're going to be working on. So I want to make sure that that's clear, but we're going to be focused on the training side of things. So the mindset, and then looking through the arousal of poison cues and consent, and then management strategy. So, um, so I'm looking to help people who have dogs that are, um, struggling to function to do the things they want to do with them. And again, I also, you know, I'm not going to get into like medical treatments and stuff like that. That's not my, not qualified. And that's also not what we're going to be doing. So it's going to be people who are looking for training solutions to the situation that they're in with their dog so that they can achieve their goals with their dog. Um, and as for skills that they, people need, um, just a basic understanding of positive reinforcement based training and, uh, and, uh, an open mind, uh, a desire to be, to be, uh, working more, um, in a, in a stronger working relationship with their dog if they're feeling frustrated. But yeah, just, just open, openness to being coached, uh, and a desire to, to come at things with a little bit of a different, uh, mindset. We'll be good to go. Awesome. So one last question. Uh, the question I usually ask people at the end here. So what's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Okay, great. I'm going to, I'm going to answer two things. The first one's super, super quick. Um, and that's that I, that I was doing fitness training with, with my dog.

And that was triggered by my Hannah, who is 14, a half, 14 and a half now, and who's been retired since she was eight because of injury. And so I haven't done any training with her in a very long time, many formal sense. She threw out her back. I thought it was a stroke. She ended up with chiropractic adjustment and acupuncture fixture instantly overnight. It scared me. So I've hired a coach to work with me on fitness training and old dogs can absolutely learn new tricks. So that's one of them. She's had, we're having so much fun together. She's learning all sorts of new things with fitness, 14 and a half years old. And it's super fun. So old dogs can absolutely learn new tricks. So that's a, that's a big one. Um, and, but the, the, the one that I think is more relevant to our discussion right now is that, um, we don't get the dog we want. We get the dog we need. I really believe that. Um, maybe it sounds a little bit woo, but I really believe that. And I, that I've been recently reminded of that because of, as I mentioned earlier, I have, um, two, four month old puppies and one of them isn't supposed to be here, Phoenix. And he was supposed to be sold in that seven weeks. Um, he ended up, uh, so he, I, I, I walked out his litter and he, he started showing behaviors that immediately made it clear that he wasn't a fit for where he was going to go. And it also made me worry that he might have some problems that I want to keep a close eye on before I place him anywhere. And so I now have this puppy that I wasn't planning on, um, who is an intense car herder. Um, he's got arousal issues. He has almost nothing for him. He trips over his own feet and gets an arousal spike and turns around and jumps up and nails me in the thigh. Um, he, you know, he's got the reactive dog behavior, so he's got lots of stuff going on. And so I've actually decided I'm not even trying to find him a home right now. I've got to work through these behaviors with him to see, you know, I really feel like I need to feel really super confident about his ability to function in the world, uh, before he ever leaves my hands, which maybe, you know, he might never leave. We'll see. Um, so anyway, this was, I like, I didn't sign up for this. Not what I signed up for. And, uh, I had to do a little mindset work on myself because I've been very fortunate for quite a while now that I've had multiple easy dogs. Now, Aoife was the last one that came into my life three years ago, who I was like, Whoa, you are not what I signed up for. Like I imported her from Ireland and, um, I had, you know, I had all these ideas about what I was going to be doing with her and bringing

her in through the window and working on door consent protocols was not in the book. Right. Um, and just right now working with Phoenix, like, you know, dealing with a four month old puppy who nails my legs on a regular basis and chases cars and barks at all the things. It was not what I signed up for. Um, and, uh, and so my mindset shift is like, Oh, well, look at this fantastic opportunity for me to really, um, learn new things. This puppy is here to teach me new things. And I, I, I don't even have to like coach myself on it. I just, I really strongly believe that. So as soon as I started seeing all that, that's one of the reasons I decided to keep them. I'm like, Oh, this puppy is really interesting. And I, um, apparently I have some lessons I need to learn. I'm ready. Like I've been focused on teaching and helping other people for a while. And now it's time for me to get to learn some lessons. Um, so I really, that's how I approach when I get a dog. That is not what I expect. And I want to really encourage all the wonderful listeners who have sensitive dogs, who are feeling frustrated. Again, it's a gift. It really is. And, um, if you can see it as a gift, you get the dog you need and let that dog teach you, then you're just going to go amazing places. So I, I'm grateful for Phoenix. Thanks for reminding me of that again. And I'm really excited about where he and I are going to go together. Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast and, uh, listeners don't know this, but we scheduled a little last minute. So I appreciate that too. Oh, my pleasure. Thank you for having me. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Sarah Bruschi to talk about Mondio Ring. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, the next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Doug Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music Music