E62: 에이미 쿡(Amy Cook) - "임계점과 테라피 대 관리"

And not all thresholds are particularly of interest when we're talking about rehabilitation or dog training. There's only really a few that we care about. Um, you know, I, I say sometimes in my, in my seminars that, you know, you don't really, do you care about the threshold that your dog, the panic threshold for your dog? And I see some people kind of saying yes, because of course we, we want to care about panic, right? But that's not what I said. I said, do you care about the panic threshold? The answer should be no, because there's plenty of other thresholds that you should have cared about well before we got anywhere near panic, right? So, so threshold is that, is that state between one thing and another, and it's no more than that. So when someone says, Hey, your dog's over threshold, the only thing I think is over what threshold? What exactly are you talking about? What state are they in now that they weren't in a bit ago that you want them not to be in or want to help them, help them, uh, get out of. And until we have common language, and I'm not even saying that we all as a, as a training community need to have one language, because this isn't one of those scenarios. This scenario is the word makes a lot of sense, but what we haven't defined is what states we're talking about. So over threshold in what way can or can't do what kind of thing, right? Um, it's worth a lot of thought because if I just say, Hey, my dog's over threshold now, I, you know, I, if I can be honest with you, I think it's becoming a shorthand for my dog kind of can't do this right now. Um, I'm just going to call that over threshold. Oh, look, he won't eat. He's over threshold. Oh, he's having trouble with latency here. He's going slow. He must be over threshold. And I think it's losing a little bit of meaning over because you're not thinking about exactly what threshold you're talking about. So, so, um, uh, it, it matters because where you want to put your therapy, um, is, is dependent on where the dog, how the dog feels and how, how stressed the dog is. So you do have to really know what your thresholds are. So it's something people need to pay, um, more attention to than I think that they are. How do you even begin to start to pin down regardless of which threshold necessarily, how do you pin down exactly where a specific dog's threshold may be between any two states? It sort of depends on what your goal is in the given moment. Is my, is my goal right now just to get past this dog with my dog and nothing happens, right? I have a different, um, definition, different, a different threshold in mind for what behavior

I don't want that I'm trying to prevent and keep him under the line of expressing. Um, that's not the same thing as if I want to do some therapy with him for, for me, that would be play therapy. And if I want to do play therapy with him, that line of where I say threshold is, is going to be much, much, much lower. Cause the line for me would be the line between he can play and he can't play. But if we're just talking about getting past a dog, the line might be the line between he can stay on my food and look at me and keep walking and keep himself together. And he can't do that. So, um, first you have to think if you're going to, you asked me, how can we figure out what, what the threshold is? Tell me what threshold you want to figure out in the first place. Um, and from there we can define what, what would it be to be under it? And what would it be to be over it? Um, you know, why do you care about this particular threshold? Oh, cause I want to get past the dog and I don't want barking. Okay. So any kind of barking would be over that particular threshold and anything under where we're managing correctly or managing successfully, I should say, um, is keeping him under, but I wouldn't call that under threshold for say learning a brand new trick, right? Cause he's probably way too busy inside cognitively, emotionally. To learn something new. So if it's like, I want to keep him under, under threshold, I'd say, okay, so what's your, what for, what is your goal? Oh, I want to, I want to do shaping with him. And, you know, sometimes he gets, you know, whatever is, whatever his problem is. I said, okay, so you want him. And I don't say I want him under a shaping threshold. I'm not telling the world to start adding new terms for everything. It's not like that. But if you want him clear headed and able to be in a shaping session, then that's what you're trying to be under. So how can you figure out what the threshold is? Well, it's, that's a moving target. You need to tell me what you need to accomplish. And from there we can make, simply make sort of tests for it. I mean, what I do is I have a really low threshold for the playway and I have tests for that. But since everyone's definition or goals might be a little different, I would encourage people to just give it even five minutes of thought of what are the states I'm trying to define here and get below or get into. And how would I know if I were there? It's a question you almost have to answer for yourself, but I have answers for the kind of work that I do. But, but not everybody's doing that. The thresholds is really, it's all over dog training.

And so I can't just tell you the threshold is the, is the one I use only and not the ones you use. Right. But I will, I will say, if you do think about this and use them, that you should put sort of more thought into definitions and identification of them. You know, you talked a little bit in there about how you use them differently in the playway. And I did want to get into that a little more. Can you just explain a little more how you use them and kind of what you mean by that? For the playway, what that, what that is, if you're not too familiar with my work, it's using social play. So that would be play without the help of toys, like, you know, playing tug or playing fetch. And without the help of food, although certain exceptions will apply. So social play with your, with your dog to help them relax, to help them feel a lot better about where they are. And to help you read how they're feeling. So you can determine whether you are under threshold or not. And that would be under my threshold, under the threshold of interest to me in this case. Really the whole reason why play is so important. The two reasons. One is of course, it's very relaxing. It's really fun. And it's, it's relationship building. But the other real function of it is directly to help me determine a threshold. Um, and the threshold I want is one between the two states of interest for me are the dog is perfectly fine. Absolutely nothing wrong is best. Anybody could tell. Um, just like I could tell you, you feel perfectly fine. You're not stressed. You're not tired. You're just being you. And then what, what? Just being you, just being Melissa. And then, and then whatever you are one step away from that. Yeah. Okay. That's not super specific, but it can't be. It's, it's you. It's whatever it's when you're, you, you, the dog or you feels perfect. Everything's fine. Totally normal. Nothing wrong. And then the first step away from that state is happening. And if you keep going on that path on the, you keep taking more steps on that line, you're going right to eventually panic or you're going right to stress. You're going right to, to upset. You're going right to can't handle. You're going right to trembling or yelling and screaming. Um, a lot of different things can happen along that, that number line. Um, and so I call it a one step threshold as a shorthand for myself so that I can see it as everything was fine. Nothing was wrong. And now we've just taken our first step away from that perfect state. And I'd like to know that that's happened for you. I'd love, if I'm trying to help you stay in that really great state, I'd love to know

that you have just left it. And because I have language with you and all other people, I can say, Hey, did you let me know when you're starting to leave perfect when you no longer feel that way anymore? Right. But it's, it's of course something that's very difficult to ask a dog. And what I use play for is, or really more accurately, the disappearance of play. When it disappears for me, I, I'm can infer that something has happened, you know, you play in your perfect state. And we of course train that a whole bunch, but, and then we rehearse it a whole bunch. And then you kind of can't something impeded, something got in the way, something interfered with our play. Are you starting on your stress path? Are you starting to leave this great state we're in? And, and when play leaves and they're just starting to have questions about whether they're okay, that's when I can best apply, um, my rehabilitation techniques, my, my interventions for them. That's the best place because they haven't gone very far away yet and I can get them back to feeling okay. Um, so threshold is super important to me for that reason, super important to everybody. For that reason, we're trying to get therapy in to a dog who can benefit from the therapy. And we don't do that when they're over threshold, but we, we have a moving target for where threshold is. And so for me, I wanted it really codified. I call anything where the dog can't play like he normally plays at home and behave like he normally behaves at home and socially with you as over threshold. Um, to me, it's over threshold for therapy. I wouldn't apply therapy there. I might switch to management, which is going to be a different topic that we can talk about. Um, but you know, if you want to apply some kind of therapy to your dog to help them feel better, um, you, you want something that indicates that they are crossing the very threshold you care about. And for me, that's, that's play. So it's, so for me, so much is over threshold. So much more is over threshold for me than your average trainer. But, but I don't mean to say that therefore everything over threshold is bad. It's just over my therapeutic threshold. I wouldn't do therapy now. We will do something else. Yeah. But you can see how it kind of hangs together. You want to know what you're dealing with so you can know what to put at it. I'm not going to throw therapy at a dog who's four steps away from perfect, but still many steps underneath flipping out, right? I still have many things I can do in there, which is what management is.

You know, most dogs to some degree aren't quite as relaxed as maybe would be ideal just in everyday life. Sure. Are you? Exactly. I'm not for the record. Tightly wound. Very tightly wound. I did want to ask you kind of, you mentioned management in there and I do want to ask, you know, on the, on the flip side of all of this, we kind of have this ideal state that you've talked about, but what happens when a trainer inevitably, you know, everybody makes mistakes and trainer makes the mistake. They misjudge something. They think their dog can handle something. Their dog definitely can't. And the dog reacts, you know, whether it's, you know, just a couple of steps further away from that ideal state or whether it's dramatic and lunging and barking and crazy. I mean, what do you do? I mean, you know, I don't think there's anybody within the sound of our voices tonight that hasn't done this. And that includes me. I'll just raise my hand. I assume you're going to raise your hand. We've all had a dog that we, that didn't want to react, react. Or conversely, I mean, this isn't really conversely. It doesn't have to be that they even react. It can be that they have been put in a situation that is beyond their skillset right now. And it might be that they tremble, or it might be that they just are now going into sniffing and don't want to do this and kind of leave. That's a form of being overthreshold. You've made a mistake in how much your dog can handle or wants to do, right? And you're not going to get through a day or a week. I don't get through a day or that making some kind of miscalculation on the feelings of others who can't talk to me, right? So if anyone out there is like, yes, that inevitable mistake, it's inevitable. You will make it. And because of that, just assume, just know that you will assume you will. Don't try not, I mean, try not to in a moment, but don't try to be a person who doesn't do that. You're just going to be your best all the time and accept when you're not. And when that happens, though, you need to stay as best you can clear headed about what your next options are, what your next acts need to be. Let's say this is reactivity and show your dog has now blown because it's a very easy example to use. So your dog has blah, blah, blah, blah at somebody who just showed up where you were training. I have a video of that in my class. In fact, of me recording a video for class and someone just shows up and I'm like, crap. And I had to, I had to respond. Right. Um, and so, uh, I didn't want to see me do that. Go in my classes in the videos, uh, in the video section.

You have to, or I recommend that you immediately drive the bus or pick up the reins, whether you like horses or cars, better pick your metaphor, um, pick up your reins and drive, pick up your wheel and steer your horse. Um, you have to take over the situation, make immediate decisions. And those immediate decisions should involve getting distance and getting your dog on something else right then and there. You stop your training. You don't negotiate. You don't see if you can get your dog back on you while you're sitting right where you were or tell the person or whatever that showed up to, Hey, could you give me some room? That's not the time to think about restoring what you had a second ago. It's your time to get up and March. I usually tell people March and they're like, what? I don't know how to March. No, no. I mean, walk fast. Leave, get out of Dodge. If you've made a big mistake, you made a big mistake, your dog, or you didn't notice. I mean, you didn't have to make a mistake. You could have been completely unaware. Well, although maybe that's a mistake. I don't know. And, and something showed up and your dog barked and too many of us spend too much time frozen right then. You go, Oh, Oh God. Oh, Oh, sorry. Sorry to whoever it was that your dog just now barked at, or you're holding and you're like, you know, dog, dog, uh, cookie, cookie dog here, trying to fix it in some fashion. And I, I don't recommend anyone do that. I think you should, if you were sitting, I'm imagining while you're talking, I was imagining sitting because most of my therapy for dogs is done sitting. But so I was going to say, you stand up and you get out and you start walking and you take control. If you can't get out, you immediately get your dog's attention by hook or by crook, interrupt that behavior, um, get them on something else right away. And the thing is that can be difficult. I don't minimize that at all. First of all, you're frozen. Um, second of all, your dog hasn't seen you do this very much and doesn't have a ton of skills around that. And so that's sort of why I have a class on this because I firmly believe that people need to rehearse everything they're going to do in the clinch. You know, if you need to, if you need to practice getting up and marching out of the way really, really quick, quickly, then you need to practice that when nothing is going on so that you get fluent in it and so that your dog sees this picture many, many times before you ever need it. Um, and that's the one thing we don't do with management is we, we, we don't do that.

But, uh, aside sort of from the, the, the practicing issue, if you flip into your mind, that first time I was kind of being dog empowered and we were training a little bit and you were figuring out my shaping puzzle, or I was doing some play practice with you and I'm listening to you and you tell me what you're feeling dog. And then something happened. Your dog goes, I can't, you go, that's it. Let's go get up. And you just take over. Um, so much of what we're trying to do here at FENZE and so many of the classes are about giving dog a lot of, giving the dogs a lot of control and a lot of ability to, to, to drive a session and to, and to be really active partners. And this is the one time when you go, all right, we're going, we're not negotiating this one. We're getting out of here. And, um, I think people are a little reticent to do it because they're trying to stay in the dog empowerment place or just aren't sure what to do. And so, um, I recommend you, you, you start driving, you pick up your reins and you drive your car. To mix my metaphors continuously. Pick up your reins and drive your car. There you go. Pick up your reins and drive that car. For dogs with reactivity, you know, it's not even just about what happens when something goes wrong in the moment or when you've made a mistake, right? There are some things you just have to deal with. The world can just be a really scary place and a really rough place. And there are just normal everyday things that just, we have, they have to happen, even though they're scary and unpleasant. You have to go outside to poop. Like you can't, we're not going to do that in the house. That's not a negotiable thing. Um, so there are some things that still need to happen in everyday life. How do you handle those things? What do you, what do you do? I think that should be one of those infographics. The world might be a scary place, but you still have to go outside to poop. You still have to do it. Um, you know, that's so, I remember being a baby trainer and being really frustrated with the answer of don't put your dog over a threshold. I had a dog who was over threshold, even by any definition, anyone's definition outside of a home, outside of a house, outside of four walls. She was losing her mind. And, and the answer was, you're supposed to, um, keep her under threshold while you're helping her classically conditioned to, you know, whatever doors and things. And I say, yeah, but she has to go outside. I can't keep her under threshold. And there's there, I didn't get much of a satisfying answer. She's like, well, try not to, it's not helping.

Um, I get it, right? The world is a rough place and going about normal everyday things is, is, um, is, might be you running a gauntlet, might be you going from, you know, challenge to challenge to challenge. And if you're working with me at all, I'm saying, Hey, let's do a lot of play. Let's keep your dog under threshold as much as possible. I'm certainly saying those things, right? So going hand in hand with helping your dog be better in any way, whether it's through classical conditioning or whatever it is you're doing in your training, um, you need to have an alternate way that you behave, an alternate plan for times that are not those times. So times when we have to just go outside and go potty are not times where we're going to be working on how you feel about going outside and going potty. We're going to flip into our management mode. We're going to get it, we're going to get our management boots on and we're going to behave as we do in management mode. That means I may have to override you. Um, I will do it certainly as kindly as I possibly can, but we're not going to go that direction. We're going to go this direction because I know this direction is better, even if you want to go that way, or, you know, you'd like to go up and see that gentleman because you're on the fence about whether you're scared. And I know that when you get there, you're going to flip out. So we're not going to, we're going this way. So, so the first thing you got to think about is you're in control and you're possibly overriding, although very kindly your dog. Secondly, your dog needs to know their part of the management system. So the management system might be, um, all the little tricks that you'll do to get your dog past a thing. So like a certain example might be a, a magnet lock, a cookie magnet. So if I teach you and, and you'd think dogs would really know this really well, but you'd be surprised how many dogs don't really know how to do this. Cause we don't practice it. You take a bunch of cookies, a bunch of them, and you put it right on their nose and don't just let them sniff it and wish they had it in their mouths, but you're actually feeding in a kind of specific way out of your hands. The whole time you're walking, can you take, I challenge all of you listening. Can you take 10 steps with your dog actively eating the entire time out of a hand, out of your hand, not any hand, your hand that's right on their nose and eating all the way through. And we're going to say these are not, uh, uh, 10 inch chihuahuas, but dogs, you can reasonably

reach with your hand because the other ones you can pick up, we can talk about that later. Um, uh, can you walk 10 whole steps? Your dog eating the whole time. So no pauses, no, no time. You take your hand away and put it back. No time for reloading. Um, no time where he's sniffing it and wishing he had it and licking it, but it's actually eating the whole way. And I think most people can't, maybe not, can't do it. Most people can get it done. And if you practice it a bit, but that's the whole point of that. You've got to practice because your dog is like, what's going on here? And you're like, I don't know. My hands are dropping treats everywhere. And you're like a, you're not even a good dog and pony show. You're the, you're the disastrous dog and pony show. Then you're the pony. You know, that requires that the dog understands that that's, what's going to happen, that the magnet should not break. Um, and you're responsible for not letting that magnet break by making that super interesting and let's go. And here's the cookies, eat them, eat them. Let's go. Come on, eat, eat, eat. Go, go, go. Come on. As you're walking past nothing. Cause you're just practicing. Um, and so if you just try to introduce that to your dog in the moment, cause you needed it right then and there, but they've never seen it before. It's not going to go so well. They need to see kind of their parts, but to the sort of the, the larger thing you actually really asked, which I'm never going to stay on one question. Cause you press the button on my chest and I, um, and everyday walk that is scary will need specific and well-rehearsed management techniques to get through. So if you're going to pass a little too close to something, you flip into magnet walking. If you're going to see something else passed by you and you only have to pause for a couple seconds, you might do some find it, but you're going to have a plan. You're going to go outside and go. In fact, sometimes when I'm walking my dog, I might say, Hey, you know, if that happened right now, like I'm passing a house, if that door just opened and a dog just kind of came running out, what would I do right now? Like right this minute, like there's traffic in the street right now, so I'm not going to go walk in the street. Um, and you, I mentally rehearsed that. And I tried to see if I, if I needed management, if my dog were over faced right this minute, what would be my choice? And that mental rehearsal is very helpful to getting, um, getting the reality actually to be like that. So management is for when you cannot train and you have to get through and training is for

when you can be reasonably under threshold. However, it is, we're going to define threshold for that particular task. And you don't need to drive the bus when you can give your dog, the reins and the wheel of the horse car, um, then you're not managing. And when you pick up the reins and take the wheel of the horse car, you are, you are now managing, um, to be tortured with, with this ridiculous example. That was exactly a minute question for you. I wanted to be on, you know, what the difference is between treating reactivity and learning management. Cause I think, I think sometimes it's really easy. I know you draw a really clear distinction between the two. And I think a lot of people, it's kind of a really muddy line there, right? Like they, they're like, but we're working on treating reactivity and the situation just changed. And now you just need to manage it and get out of there. And people just, sometimes it's hard to kind of understand that those are two sides of the same coin maybe where, yes, you need to do both. Yeah, they, they, they are two sides. And, you know, I, I think of them as flipping back and forth a lot. And, and, you know, in, in the way I learned dog training, we, we talked about flipping from opera conditioning to classical conditioning too. I mean, I'm not saying people don't do it now. They, I'm sure they must, but in the sense of I'm training you to do a thing. Oh, a scary thing happened. I'm just giving you cookies, giving, giving, giving, giving a scary thing. And I'm, I'm changing right into, into classical conditioning mode. Don't care what you're doing. Here's cookies. We flip back and forth on what we can reasonably let a dog just kind of do without too much direction. And when we have to take over, and I see this as a very similar flip, but between two different states because I do my therapy different now. So, so in this case, it would be treating reactivity for me means I let you have your head back to the horses. Uh, you can make some decisions. You can, I want you to tell me what you need to look at. I want you to tell me how you're feeling by your quality of your play. And we're having a nice session here where you're looking at something in the distance and gathering some information about it. And then you can dismiss it a bit and come back to me and we play some, and we're doing all this and I'm letting you tell me how you feel. I'm not driving it and telling you to sit and telling you to do a high five and giving you things to do. It's very dog driven. And then when I see that something has changed, either you've changed, or I really see that

literally a thing in the environment is now here. I utterly change. We flip only into management tasks and I make sure that they happen. I create them all. And in, and in play and even in other kinds of training, even if you're not doing specifically rehabilitation, you're doing some heel practicing. You're you're the dog is doing the behavior and you're rewarding it. And once management has to be there, I don't ask the dog to do anything. I create it all as best I can. Like that's what the magnet walk is. It's not a heel, which the dog does and looks up at you and you reinforce however often you're reinforcing it. It's instead, I put a magnet on your nose and I'm drawing you forward and we're walking that direction. And, and the dog's like, I don't know. I'm just following my nose. I'm not doing anything. If you think about it that way, I'm taking as much control and I'm doing the behaviors. I'm making sure the behaviors happen. And I'm insisting as kindly as possible so that the dog stays contained and stays focused on me and the world can pass by. And if the world isn't going to pass by, I just, I got to run out of there. And you know what? Running as has to be practiced too. If you're going to run away from stuff, you better run the right way. You don't want to run in panic. You don't want your dog going, why are we running? Oh my God. Right. It's a practiced skill like any other. You practice running away from stuff so that it's, so that it's not, so that it's not surprising for the dog and they have to go, whoa, whoa, whoa, what, there should be no what. There's only a lot of, oh, we're doing this. All right. I can, I can do that. So the distinction I make between treating reactivity or learning management is that one, you are responsible for everything that happens. And then the other one, you're lightning control. You're letting the dog tell you a lot more stuff. You are, you're responding to the dog instead. And in management, dogs responding to you and you go. So hopefully, hopefully that's the clarity moment there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, kind of as you're talking about it, I was thinking in one situation, it seems like you really want the dog to think. And the other situation, you want to remove any need for the dog to think. That's a good way to put it. Like I want, I want you thinking and driving and telling me and on your own, you know, you want to look at something, look at something. I don't need to interrupt you. I want you to have your process and, you know, more of that in the boogeyman class guys, but, um, but a dog showed up. Oh no, no. Here, come here.

I, you just need to think about me and I'm going to take care of all of this. Um, and that's something that doesn't come naturally to a lot of people. We sit there and we, Oh God, we deliberate. And should I, should I give a cookie? He barked. I'm so nervous that it's reinforcing the bark and I can't give the cookie. And in that time, while you're deliberating what you should do, that dog made it all the way to you. Or that person has now got on his phone and started arguing and like everything got worse. You should have left before you started to think about what you should do for your dog. Leave and then decide. Magnet walk and go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Take it over. Yeah. So one of the biggest takeaways for me when I took the management class, which, you know, I loved was the importance of really practicing the skills. You've talked about this a little bit, practice and practice and practice since they become a habit, not just for the person, but for the dog. Something that, uh, the dog can really, the dog and you can really fall back on when you need it because it's so embedded and it's so patterned. The fact that it just basically becomes, you know, you don't have to think about this. It's so fluent for both of you. It's dancing. We are all better if we have instructions, we are all better if we know what we're going to do. We are all better if things are patterned, all of us, um, them, especially, you know, if you want a dog to come magnet walking with you, um, that dog's got to have seen it dozens and dozens of times, or they're going to go like, yeah, magnet walk, but you know, I got stuff to yell at. They don't have a groove to get into. That's been super practiced. And you know what? You don't either. The class and the way I teach it to people, we're not using it. Maybe ever in the class, maybe, but certainly not till the last week, because I want just fluency beyond fluency beyond, you know, I'll start throwing in the class, I'll start throwing little like, um, so like, here's, here's one thing you can do. Anybody listening, if you're, if you have a few management skills already, like a, you know, I find it and, um, a two up putting two feet on something, um, maybe some quick sits, um, something that keeps their attention while all things around are breaking loose. You, what I want you to do to challenge yourself to do is you're out on your walk today. You're on a, on a regular kind of suburban block and you see up ahead a fire hydrant. And then you see farther ahead than that, the tree that's there. And I want you to manage, flip right into management.

The second you come to that fire hydrant and manage the whole way, all the way to the tree and nothing has happened except that you decided you got to the fire hydrant and then you made it all the way to the tree. And the dog might at first go, what, why are you managing me? And if that's true, your dog's looking around, then he's not that practiced at management. He's expecting something to go wrong. He's expecting a big problem. That's the last thing you want. You want to teach your dog that management is this crazy game. I sometimes play for like 10 seconds for no reason at all. Every once in a while, there's also a dog there, but that's not why I did it. I did it because I'm crazy and I just like to do fun and get your dog to believe that. And if you can flip in and flip out, flip out when nothing around you has happened and do that any old time, you can have, some people have their partners, um, just say a code word and then they have to manage right then and there and like, get out, get out of Dodge right now. And for no reason, um, it lets your dog see a little bit of panic in you. Let's you talk to see a little bit of, you know, Oh God, Oh God, Oh God. In you. Um, and you're just freestyling. You're ad libbing. You're just, you're able to take any challenge that comes up. I let, I make, I have people practicing that in the last two weeks of the class where they have to freestyle it. I call it, you got to go out there and start responding to the tree and the bumper of the car and you know, um, the fire hydrant and make me believe that they're, that a dog showed up and you got out of Dodge, um, so that your dog has all of that before he ever needs to have it used. And, and you'd be surprised. I mean, you know, I'm often surprised at how, how much dogs are a creature of habit. You'd think something like this. Wouldn't I hear people saying, yeah, but my dog won't eat when we're outside. They're a creature of habit. You, you, you don't start training it outside. You train it inside. You train it in careful places. And dogs really do go with the program. They really, they really, really do. It's super helpful. And even if it isn't perfectly helpful at every turn, you know, 80% helpful is better than what you had before you started having a management system. So really anything is better than nothing. Yeah. Right. So you mentioned a couple of examples of some of the games you include in the management class in there. You mentioned two paws up, I think, and quick sits. Do you mind sharing some of those examples and just, you know, describing them a little bit?

I like to separate the skills into the categories of, um, we are leaving in some fun way. I'm getting you out of this place. And it might be that I'm just pulling up a driveway. It doesn't necessarily mean I'm leaving far, but I'm taking you and we're going to a new location. Um, that's one set of skills. And then the other set of skills is, well, I'm stuck here. Oops. My exit is blocked. Um, or oops, that person showed up, but I see that they're actually just leaving and we'll get out of here faster than I would ever be able to get out of here. So I might as well stay here for a second and let the trigger leave. Yeah. And those are, those are super separate. So getting out of Dodge leaving quickly involves connecting a magnet and then deciding which side your dog is going to be on. Cause perhaps it's better if they, they were on your left, but now they need to be on your right. So you need to execute that really smoothly without breaking your magnet. Perhaps you need to make a U-turn. Can you do without breaking your magnet? Most people don't. They make a U-turn and connect the magnet again after they've made turn. Um, so we fix all those mechanics, you know, how are all the ways you can leave a scene? Um, all the directions you could go, all the sides your dog could be on front crosses and all that stuff. And then, and you get one of those or one, I guess one of those a week, and then you get a skill in the oops, you're stuck series. Um, I should call it that. I should just rename it that in the class. Oops, you're stuck. This is oops, you're stuck. Number one. Um, and the best one there is find it. And I like those to be on cue. Um, although it's really okay. If the cue is they saw you drop the food, cause that's going to work. It's really fine. But I'd like to be able to say, oh, Doug, find it. And then they go down and search immediately, even though you haven't put food down there yet, while you go and get the food, cause you weren't ready. Cause it wasn't in your hand. Cause something surprised you. And so you go, oh God, uh, find it. And they immediately start going, what really? And they're looking down. They don't see anything. And in that moment, you're like, here it is. And you spill it all over the ground. And now they have something to find that keeps their nose down and on their food. And you should get super involved. You missed this one. Look at this here. Pat, pat, pat, touch, touch, touch, nudge, nudge. Look at these. You missed these here. Oh my goodness. Keep them super engaged in that. What it does is first of all, control where their head is, which you totally need.

And then, um, if it was a dog that was passing by, or even a person, if it was a dog that was passing by, that dog is not being enticed by whatever your dog was doing, making it then harder for your dog to resist. Um, and also you look super busy if someone was passing by and you're afraid what your dog was going to do, or really wanted to protect your dog from that greeting. All of a sudden they're going to find it. You're doing training. You're busy. The dog isn't soliciting or looking like they're soliciting attention, which people misinterpret all the time. Um, and it's just, it's busy. So that's, that's a great one to, to, to train. And you might think there's no training in that one, but there, but there is because they want to break from that. And you need to really get involved and you need to teach them that on verbal. I like them also to perch on things. So, um, a two up and a four up, um, two up is just front paws up and four up. They jumped onto it. And I see them really differently from each other. The, the two up, I want you both facing the same way. So it's kind of like, we're, um, I don't know, standing at a fence and both peering over it. You know, we're both facing that way. So something can pass behind us. Oh, we didn't notice. Cause I've got a magnet right in front of your face and look at these cookies, honey. And look at that view, sweetheart. It's not really a view. Just imagine it. And then that person or whatever it is, a trigger can be leaving while you're stuck there. This is your stuck series of skills and a four up. I see the other way. I want the dog all four up, but you're going to face me. Tuck your face in close to my chest. So I kind of have your head here and you're up at my chest height, say a half wall or a bench or something like that. And I've got control of your face and I can, and I can now look at the trigger passing behind your butt, but you're not. Cause I'm like, look at what I got, honey. Look at this. And then she breaks the magnet to look behind her. And you're like, reconnect, look back here. Cookie, cookie, cookie. And each scenario might require you to, to, you want to look at the trigger to make sure it's going away. So you, you put them in a four up or you might, neither of you need to look because if you're looking, your dog's going to look and every dog's a little different. So you want to know how that goes. So I like, I like those kinds of stationary skills. Then there's a few others like leave it's, which a lot of people have already, but if we practice them in this situation, it helps them resist the urge to want to go look at

whatever it was that was scaring them. And we do a thing called a classical recall. So it's not actually about the closing of the distance. I'll, I'll let that one remain in the class. Cause it's actually a really long explanation. We do a, a sort of a special kind of recall. And then a bunch of other things. I like people, I like dogs to wait at doors. Um, just as impulse control, just don't dart out in front of me for stuff. Stay really connected to me when we're walking. And it's not really a loose leash walking class, but I think it ends up being that a little bit too, because there's so much magnetization on the walking. Um, and, and, and, and the class also gets a little bit of, um, customization. If your dog in particular needs this one kind of skill, there's, there's room. I built in room in the, in the curriculum for a custom built trick or custom built skill that you can use when you're, um, stuck, you're stuck series. Um, so, so, so the class is customizable to your situation. That's awesome. Um, and I will say the, the find a game has worked, you know, I told you this privately a bunch, but you know, it, it worked wonders, um, for me with my shepherd, just like having that game as a patterned game where she knows what her job is in such a concrete and understandable way. And it's just to find the cookies. Something can pass us by. It can even pass by in the same direction that she's kind of looking as she finds her cookies in the ground and she knows her job so she can focus. And it just, you know. Yeah. And I think they sell, you know, some of them are self-medicating. It's like, I, I, you know, I wanted not to have to do that anyway. This yelling at dogs thing. I just did, you know, look, I can do a thing. I can just concentrate on this thing I'm doing. Um, but if they can't really do that, then you're pointing out every one of them until they're able to concentrate. And what I like about the find it is that can go on as long as you want. Yes. Right. Cause I have an endless stream of pocket, pocket cookies. I have, I'm complete. I'm complete with cookies. And so if I want find it's to go on for a full minute, it's like, you miss this one here. And look, there's a whole trail over here. And look, Oh my God, in the grass, you missed, look at all these cookies and dogs love to forage. So it's, it's playing to their strengths, you know? Um, and you can, you know, get their attention, walk, run another 15 steps to get a little further from something that changed again, do another find it. Um, you can do find it's the whole way while you're walking and it, it, it, it's very customizable,

but find it's are, are the unsung hero. I think of management because, because people think, Oh, I put them on the floor, but the dog didn't care. And so this doesn't really work for me. And it's actually not a simple matter of just using it when you've never practiced. Practice is the game changer. Really. Right. Yeah. So I want to kind of round things out by asking you if there's anything else that you've gotten the works that you care to share in new classes, other goodies people should keep an eye out for, um, kind of what you're working on. Goodies. What am I working on? Um, let's see what's coming up. I mentioned I got the webinar. Um, I'm going to talk solely about thresholds in that webinar, uh, because there's more to say about it for sure. Then I, then I was able to say here. Um, and then, um, I have June starting June. I've got two classes starting June. I've got this management class. I alternated with the boogeyman, the playway class, um, because people need access, I think to the whole picture of it. So I just try to make sure one runs into the other runs into the other. So next up is management. So if anyone's interested in that, um, this is the time to sign up. Um, and concurrently with that, I'm going to run a sound class, which is for dogs who are sound sensitive, sound sensitive, who need some classical conditioning. Essentially, but I use a lot of play and a lot of celebration and a lot, a lot less of the dry. I'll give you cookies when the sound, after the sound happened, um, uh, true to true to for me, there's a ton of play in it, but it's not just personal play. So if you had trouble with personal or social play, that's not, that's not, that's too weak for this class. We do crazy, raucous, amazing play with all the toys of the world. So I have a sound. So that's coming up. That comes up probably only once or twice a year at most. So if that's your, your issue, uh, you'll want to pick that up now. Um, but in the kind of in the future, what I'm, what I'm toying with now is I want to write or I'm in the really the process of writing a new class, um, uh, about raising puppies or socializing your new dog. If you just got a new dog in the playway style. So all this stuff I'm using playway for is usually for, for responding to problems dogs already have, but it would be really great if we could just prevent them in the first place, at least as best we can. Um, and so I'm, I'm writing a class that's aimed at, you've just got your puppy or you just got your new dog. You don't know too much about them and, um, you're in the honeymoon period. What can you do to start off on the right foot?

And, uh, and, and really for me, that means rethinking socialization, you know, socialization, at least to my mind, it's not about being social. It's actually about being civilized and learning to ignore a lot of things, um, but not through forced connection. So, so I'm going to kind of write a class for people who want to, uh, sort of raise their dog in that dog empowered way and, um, kind of get started on that right foot. And it's, it's in the works, but it's a, I, I take, um, quite a long time to really get all the pieces together. So don't expect it soon, maybe fall, maybe into the next year. I'm not sure, but, um, it's going to be a, it's going to be a companion class to the play way for, for people who don't already have a reactivity problem, but just don't want to have one. They can, they can get into it that way. That sounds fantastic. I am super excited about the new class. I'm looking forward to it. And, and thank you for coming back on. It was fun to chat again, Amy. It always is. Always a pleasure. Um, you can have me on weekly. I'm available weekly and also daily. If you need more podcast goodness. If only that were actually true. If only people would just interview me every evening, I would be happy. So that's my, that's what I need. In truth, you know, it's a little after midnight here. Okay. All right. We'll, we'll be done. Um, but it was really, it was really great to be here. I'm really happy you asked me back and it's always a pleasure to talk with you. It's always a fun chat. It absolutely is. And I'm glad you could come on and I'm glad all of our wonderful listeners could tune in to listen to it. We will be back again next week. This time with our other Amy from FDSA, Amy Johnson. We'll be chatting about what it's like behind the scenes to photograph a major competition event. So we'll be talking to her about the recent, um, I think it was a Gildy national. She just shot, uh, kind of what that's like, what's involved in that and all of that good stuff. So it should be fun. Uh, if you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. And if you don't know how to do that, we have directions on our website. So if you go to our site, if you go to the site, we have buttons right at the top that tell you how you can subscribe if you're on an iPhone and how you can subscribe if you are not on an iPhone, if you're using an Android phone. So I hope you'll go and do that. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy.

Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by Ben sound.com. The track featured here is called buddy audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.