Unleashing the future of dog training - Taijon Duverger

[00:00] We are live with some legends today. We'll give a few minutes for people to join and get into the room. They are also sharing it on their platforms because there's people from around the whole world who have been messaging me, how they know when it's happening and where. It's not playing yet. [00:25] I don't see it yet on your page. Me neither. We just got the notification on our end that it's there. So we'll, Michael, I'll DM you the link. Okay. Just to make sure that everything is there. [00:53] And of course that it came back from Belgium with the flu, you cannot believe. You just got back yesterday. Yeah. And I had the pleasure to be at that airport of Chicago for more than 10 hours. Yeah, the delay. I saw you had a delay. Yeah, I hate it. That's the worst thing about flying. How did you see he had a delay? He missed it. He put it online. [01:19] You must have put that by accident. Really? Did it play? You must have put that by accident. You better watch what you put on your phone. Yeah. Did it play some role? Yeah. With that? You were like, oh, delayed in Chicago. And I only knew because you told me that you, I mean, Sophie had said that you were traveling to give you time just in case you get delayed. Attachment is unavailable. we'll do it later okay well i'm live and people know about it on my page and we're live on that [01:49] too as well it says that we're live so we'll get to it okay so thank you guys for taking time out of your busy schedule you know to speak with me i'm just a regular you know person running a dog training business so i'm happy to have someone on your calendar on this platform and today i really wanted to highlight specifically michael and her importance in this whole system because it's sad [02:15] to say that we we work in a dog training industry that is mostly predominantly men but the clients are mostly women so i wanted to kick the question off or the interview off with how did you guys meet me huh well i uh i had just it was in 2010 we met and i had been to i had a lot of boarding dogs [02:42] boarding trains and i just come back from a week in florida and one of my friends says i go over and train with my helper and my helper says you've got to see this guy is coming to virginia no you've got to see this phenomena yeah and i said i'm way too busy i've got to get to it and so he brought me in his house and he showed me dogs four oh yeah the video with black talk that dog that was yeah and i

[03:13] was looking at it i was like wow that's no you were looking he said nice looking guy so he said can you go i said no i can't go it's it's just impossible but anyway so a couple of my friends they were just like you must come blah blah blah so i ended up going and uh we showed up actually at the host's house right after bart had left and the hosts were like oh bart just left and such a smart guy and blah blah [03:44] blah blah and then we went yeah and then i i actually didn't meet bart until saturday morning when i was getting letting the dogs out and he was making his trip around he likes to see cars and setups and trailers trailers and i had a big sprinter but i didn't know it was him and i thought it was somebody that i didn't want to talk to so i just ran in my truck but then he came over and he said [04:18] are you here for the for the bart velin seminar i was like yes he said maybe you can give me a ride and i said all right because i realized it wasn't uh it wasn't who i thought it was so um yeah and then that's how we met and then in the car she asked me do you know bart i said no but i'm also there to listen [04:46] and then at a certain point i went on the microphone and then she looked to me like you and then she said you bastard that's funny that's funny i mean go ahead it's a little bit embellished for a nice story but now comes i said michael and you have an answer of five minutes where did you [05:13] meet michael and i will give you one answer your room two two three all right so you guys met at that seminar right and then after that what happened where did you guys connect after how did you guys continue to work with each other because at that time michael i believe you were running these what's the dc metro canine yeah i actually just didn't think we would see each [05:44] other again so uh yeah she did do something right in room two three we didn't we didn't have dinner together he asked me do you want to have dinner with me and the hosts and i was like no i have to go home so i went home but then he came to america like two weeks later and then a month later i went to belgium and yeah then it was one euro then it's just like a story well there we learned that international [06:16] phone bills can be very expensive yeah especially that time a thousand dollar a thousand dollar bill for one 20 minute phone call wow beginning we didn't know about uh whatsapp and facebook messenger and facetime because we didn't yeah yeah so i don't know if it was there or whatever but

[06:41] yeah so we just called regular okay phone bills about expensive phone bills my oldest son is a special one and one day he tells me daddy i have a very expensive phone bill it was more than a thousand euro and i said sonny it's unbelievable because i'm traveling worldwide and my bill is cheaper i said what do you do well he said in my free time i did call the sex line and i said are you kidding me [07:14] next time you call me and i do it half a price i think he was just calling for company though i don't think he was that's crazy guys so i have my next question just for you michael is michael you went to george washington university and studied psychology many people don't know that how did that come full circle for you with dog training and i did it well i i that was my second degree um i my first degree is in english and then i [07:48] mark you didn't learn anything what this whole time you haven't learned english from michael um yeah so but psychology i actually worked in the lab and my specialty my special discipline was uh learning and cognition okay so um i think it's come in very i mean i wanted to be a cognitive psychologist at a certain point uh but it didn't work that way but a lot of the things that i learned [08:23] in school the writing the english the reading the studying the psychology the reports everything it's definitely been extremely useful my father always joked you have like a major that you can do nothing with it but everything i've done everything with my major with both of my majors [08:50] being the head of two three companies so it's been extremely useful and yeah if i was an engineer i would go into engineering but for what i do my education has been extremely helpful so i want to bring that full circle too with you running dc metro canine what was some of the biggest [09:16] challenges you faced we all as dog training owner business owners we know that the owners can be the problem really the dogs are easy but while running that business what were some of the obstacles and challenges you faced well in the beginning when you start off your business you take every client yep every client so i got to the point when i didn't have to do that anymore [09:43] that the the but i do think it's a growing experience to be you're so hungry and you need you need to make money so you take every every client every dog no matter what and you learn a lot but normally i lived thankfully in bethesda maryland where it's a an extreme educated city

[10:10] and for that i am very fortunate because if you explain to people in a logical way exactly what you're doing and why they can follow it there's no denying no there's yeah so i was blessed really by motivated understanding hard working and grateful people in my business now i should [10:45] like to add that when i looked to the type of dogs michael received 90 percent were what we call the bully dogs they were a little bit too much spoiled but very stable environmentally so the owners did do something right but they just could not control the dog [11:12] that means that it was not about fear training and stuff like that you know not for i mean 75 like i said i lived in a very educated area with really smart people but that was it was lucky for me i was always amazed to see that michael did turn around the dogs in three weeks [11:38] so not three months three weeks which was 21 days that's a lot yeah with the basic command come to me go to your place opposite behavior then the sit and a down a walk on the leash and work without the leash and a heel and the heel yeah a lot a lot of dogs get got a fantastic heel [12:08] a sport quality heel in three weeks in three weeks three weeks yes but you have to understand that i didn't start training right away the first week i normally got a bond with the animals and i made ignition and once you have ignition everything went quickly strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy [12:33] to the movie The Miracle Worker where that one lady trains, because it's training, the little problem child. That's a little bit what Michael did with the dogs of Bethesda, installing rules of education. We call it the rules of engagement. So there was a big similarity between that movie of The Miracle Worker and what Michael did. [13:05] For example, Michael did pick up the dog at their place and then did bring the dog where she had a little business and nobody could come there, no visit of the parents or nothing. It wasn't that I didn't want them to see my place. It was that they need to be alone. And because as soon as you bring them back, a lot of dogs say, oh, thank goodness. [13:33] I'm back in the place where I can get away with all my stuff. And when they see the people. And what I was always amazed to see was that Michael and I were implementing the dog. the same type of system. Exactly. From before we didn't know each other. It means that.

[13:58] One of the biggest ingredients of the system is hope. Hope and then a little bit pressure. And if pressure is lower than the hope, it's a negative reinforcement. And if pressure is too high, it's higher than the hope. It's over and out. So I was always amazed to see how me that comes just out of sport world. [14:23] And Michael that did do the money. A business was based on the pet industry where the money is. How we did implement the same type of system without knowing each other. It was very interesting. And the other thing is, is when you return a happy dog. And a happy dog, even when he doesn't do well and he must get a correction and he's still happy. [14:50] Then people will follow through with your plan. Yes, I agree. I agree. But if they don't want to see their dog looking sad. Yeah. They don't want to see their dog demotivated and they want to see a happy dog. So that you must return a happy dog. So how can you make that happen? Well, you spoke about ignition and for people back home, ignition for the bellings is, we'll say desire, willing to perform the behavior because the dog understands that their behavior has context. [15:25] There's a cause and effect, which will create creativity for the dog. So they don't go and train dogs before the dog understands that what I do has a consequence, both good and mostly good. Basically, yeah, that they can make, they can make you do things. Exactly. But you keep everything that they want and they must want something. [15:50] That's the first thing. If you get a dog in your training that doesn't want anything, doesn't want food, doesn't want pets, doesn't want to go for a walk, doesn't want a toy. You're in trouble. You have to make them want something. Yes. So that's the first thing. But then you have to also understand that there's a guy, I can't remember the psychologist's name. [16:16] It'll come to me when I don't need to remember it. But he was a social psychologist and he basically said happy people are when you wake up in the morning and you say, I want to check my phone. I want a cup of coffee. I want to call my best friend. I want to go out and see my dog. I want to do this. I want to do that. Depressed people wake up and they want to put a pillow over their head and go back to sleep. [16:44] So that's a little bit when you get dogs, dogs that don't want anything are sometimes not very happy. So the more things they want, the easier it is to train. And the happier they are because they can get what they want or they can you can keep it away.

[17:09] Tyjohn is easy. It's a little bit the Maslow pyramid that Michael was implementing. It means that a lot of dogs that did came out of Bethesda did live in Maslow 4 world. Too much food, too much love, five beds. Yeah. Satiation. Right. [17:34] And what Michael took away is that too much. And then every time she offered food, they did refuse. No problem. But I did offer it. So Michael's system was based on first, I want to see that there is hunting behavior, desire. Yes. Once there is desire, then we can start. Then we can train. I never trained a dog that didn't have any desire. [18:00] I mean, the first thing is just open your hand and you have your food and the dog must gobble it up. Yeah. And if they don't, if they're looking around or they're putting in their mouth and the food is dripping out, then I still would take care of them. I still would brush them. I'd walk them, but they aren't ready to train. What's very important to understand is that most dogs need food to survive. [18:31] Most, not all. Not all. There are dogs that are genetically not the best. Problematic. So that means that as soon as there was interest for food, Michael could start a training program for normal dogs. In the sport world, in the sport world, years ago, we only did start when there was prey drive. [19:01] Meaning what? For people back home? Yeah. Well, and the ball or whatever, the tug. Okay. And then the problem of that system is by taking away the tug. Question is, is that really a correction by not giving the tug? That's why in the sport world, you need to have the pinch collar, the choker and the e-collar. [19:28] Whereas what Michael did do with the pet dogs was she was using their natural interest for food. And that system you can implement on, I would say 99% of the dogs. Whereas if you go for prey, you can only implement that on 5% of the dogs. So our job is not to train only the 5% of the genetic best dogs. [19:57] Our job is to train the whole spectrum of dogs. And what if you have a dog that doesn't have food drive and doesn't like food? How do you know that Michael? The biggest question that I think people will have is how do I know that my dog is not, is in that 5% or that 1% of not being food motivated? Because a lot of people make the mistake of thinking, hey, my dog's not food motivated, but it's really because they're giving away all the food.

[20:26] They're giving away all the ammunition in a food bowl twice a day. Right. Well, that's it's for me. It's easy because when I get when I got dogs and I always fed them by hand. A lot of dogs will eat. If you put a bowl in their kennel and you leave them alone, you leave the room, then they'll eat. You'll hear the meeting. But when you're around for some reason, they don't want to. There's multiple reasons. [20:51] Sometimes they don't trust you. Sometimes they're they're possessive. They're possessive of their food or different things. Sometimes they prefer to be with you because they know I can eat later. So but I like to do it when I offer them food, they should eat. And but if you after two days, they're not eating and say they're stable, they're not because some dogs can be nervous. [21:19] Dogs can even be so nervous when they go to a new place that they don't pee for a day. It's unbelievable. I see all the time. Oh, it's unbelievable. When I first started my business, I was so concerned because I would take the dogs out over and over. And I I had a few dogs that literally didn't pee for a day and a half. [21:45] But it's it can happen. They're stressed. They're so stressed. And it's not because I'm doing anything to them. It's because they're not environmentally stable. They're not used to going other places. They're not used to being in a kennel. They're not used to being around other dogs. Or they're used to only do pee and poo in one place, which is the toilet. So that you did not learn. No, no, it's because if you buy a dog from a breeder that has the dogs on the cement floor, the cement floor becomes the toilet and they will not go on grass. [22:20] And they will. You see what I mean? So very important. Yeah. Right. Well, Jack had learned to pee on wood chips. So Jack, when I first got her, she didn't really pee outside. But when you put her in the kennel, we had wood floors to always peed. When I was a young trainer, I had a friend and he was a smart guy. And he said the puppies, if you want them to be clean, you take two foot of grass, a grass throw, how you call it? [22:52] The roll of grass. Sod. And you put it close to the door of your kennel and they will do it on the grass. And very fast, you see that they do it on the grass and then they only do it on the grass. And you make that little piece, that stroke of grass smaller and smaller until there is no more grass in the kennel. And then you leave the dog every three, four hours out and they do it on grass.

[23:17] So these are the little things that are very important. So wood chips, when pups are young, it's easy for the breeder to clean everything. It's a little bit problematic later to keep the dogs clean in an environment where there is wood with the floor. Yeah. So the animal learns it. So to go back to Michael's thing of dogs that had stress from not peeing and pooing, maybe, but maybe it was also they were trained so well. [23:45] That's your toilet. Right. And not on another place. Right. Yeah, I agree. So I want to take some time and check into the chat box. But let me just say one thing is that you see a dog, if a dog is not peeing, if he's not comfortable enough to pee, he's certainly not ready for training. Yeah. That means there's no trust as well. Right. It's safe to say. Yeah. [24:10] So like I said, the first few days, it's just, I, I observed them. How do they eat? How do they pee? Do when they poo, do they have diarrhea? Are they coordinated? Are they getting exercise? Are they using their energy so that they can be calm at night? Are they stressed to be around other, just, just watching. Okay. I've noticed that in my studies with dogs, the dogs I've had, that most dogs, when they first come, it's [24:39] for me, the first, maybe if I get them in the morning and the evening, they don't even want food. Yes. A lot of times. Where's my owner? What's the new change that's happening? So I find that taking them on a long walk, decompresses them. And I'm not talking about having structure, just going for a long walk and that will make them, the stress levels go down. It also will help them realize I'm not here to hurt them. [25:05] And then we can begin to feed and keep the sessions real short. And people don't understand the benefits of good exercise. And I don't mean wearing them ragged, but that it's a natural thing that dogs need to move. And when they move, they can get their crazy out and they sleep better and they eat better and they're calmer and they're more energetic because they're in better shape. [25:35] Just like, just like exercise cannot be underestimated. Just like us. So I'm going to quickly do a battery change. I'm still here, but I wanted to. [26:05] Yeah. I see it. Can I answer this? Yeah. When there is desire for your money. And the money can be food, the money can be. Right. Both systems only work if the dog is interested in the money. That means that if you do direct reward with food or bowl and that food or that bowl is not rewarding for the dog.

[26:40] Luring will work in three times. Not today. Not tomorrow. Never. So. The boat systems need the desire for the money. Ignition. Ignition. We need to have an ignition. And that's actually Bart and I have really been saying it for years. That we're primarily ignition trainers. [27:18] primarily ignition trainers that means that we create different types of gasoline sorry so we create different types of gasoline we create what we call the easy gasoline which is fruit every dog that wants to survive needs food and if you look to our dogs they are not oversized but [27:51] they are not underweighted neither they look fantastic so that's one thing and our experience is that even dogs that don't eat well over the work they start to be work addicted and food addicted like like Jack so is that much hope is that what you mean when you say a dog has too much hope well too much hope no no no but the only thing you can never have in our opinion too much [28:23] hope the only thing you can have too much hope for is something you never want to happen again then you want to squelch all hope make no hope but everything else there can't be too much hope more hope the better you well we always ask ourselves is why is it that the dog can be crazy about the cat are we frozen yes you're here no it seems that we're good here our stuff is frozen [28:58] no problem oh I hear and see you fine just wanted to make sure we're good because I have people watching the house to make sure we're rolling okay it means that where was I cat you're speaking about never did be a cat so attracted by the cats why is the dog loving the cats the cat that never did feed the dog the dog the cat they do nothing for my dog the dog loves the cat why so it is always [29:32] interesting to see how sometimes things can be a point of interest for the dog and if the cat is the point of interest well let's go for two cats inside of your pocket and reward your dog with a with a cat that you take out of your pocket yeah and with one cat there you give them two cats here and then you maybe can win but it's crazy to see how dogs can be crazy about something and then you think how can that [30:04] happen but that's the trick you must find what is attractive for my dog yeah and that's a little bit that belly the belly the belly work that you must do sometimes a stinky plastic bottle that comes out of your trash is more attractive than a twenty dollar ball that you did buy especially in the store for

[30:32] pets you know yeah what do they like to play with it's crazy yeah my my blue healer he's fascinated with pine cones and i never never played with one i go outside total fascination every single time i want to go and chew a pine cone and it's just fascinating i don't know what it is in his head that it's like michael had the dog ragnar and he was crazy going on ladders [31:04] if he did so louder he had to climb on it like a monkey and why and he wasn't very coordinated either oh he was he was missing falling he was following we don't know why and he didn't care and he would still go back on the ladder yeah oh yeah the more he did fall down the more he wanted the ladder yeah one time he was really slipping a lot and i tried to get him down because and that was one of the only [31:32] times that he said er yeah i remember yeah he was like leave me alone i'm climbing this ladder yeah so i i that brings me to my next question that just makes me think of a client that i've had where it was a rottweiler and she would give it food in a bowl and it would just do it to you growl right and [31:57] it wasn't that she ever took the food away from the dog it's never that she played the game where you must be okay when i take the food away she does well i tell you there's a there's a famous dog trainer that put out a video about teaching to take the food away from i'm not going to say who it is but for us a very easy way is we have an empty bowl and we put some food we drop food in the bowl [32:33] and the dog eats and we drop food we keep dropping food and as the dog gets more used to it our hands come closer and closer to the bowl and continue to give food so our hands announce you get food so they like our hands to come we are not competitors on the food of the dog we are the servants that bring food right to the dog it's totally other and it works like a charm [33:00] because the reason that they're growling is that they feel threatened well they feel like maybe you're going to take it away from them or they're protecting it but there's a reason why they don't like your hands so make your hands have another meaning your hands are the givers you you see the same you see the same in the sport in the sport the hands are the biggest competitors on the prey of the dog because the hands

[33:27] only come to take away the prey or when the dog is not doing it well to hit him on his nose hey you must auditory you must hold it better i mean it's it's the same thing so you should not be in this case a competitor on what the dog has by the way john take our picture down and put it back up because i think we're we're locked we are frozen yeah okay i'll close it and open it again yeah try that on youtube [34:00] it looks like you guys are all good okay yeah no it's still locked still frozen weird okay okay so for you guys do you want to turn the camera on and off let me stop and start the video for you we try yeah you can try it yeah are you still frozen yeah the wi-fi in missouri huh i guess i don't know i don't know i don't know huh okay no problem we are not frozen we can see your video so the people [34:32] in the chat box can see can see very well so now the next thing that i want to talk about is like the future of where you guys want to send your message we talked about it a little bit in silver school i was there in silver school and the goal is to spread the message about all the quadrants of training now a lot of trainers think that people focus too much on the quadrants of training but definitions are important can you explain to us why you guys think definitions are important and how we can basically [35:04] shape and mold the future of doctrine well if if if normal people have a different definition of something then they can argue about something that we're really there in agreement so definitions must be the same it's a little bit like we always tell people that what is your definition of dog training right because some people might have a dog that's trained and say my dog is [35:36] really well trained and another person says no they're not really well trained but it depends what their definition of dog training is is it that they don't jump on the kids and they get along with the family if they do that according to that person's definition they're well trained our definition of a well-trained dog is a dog that always does on cue with heart and soul that's our definition [36:05] but if somebody has a different definition and their dog fulfills their definition then they're well trained but see definitions matter yeah a good dog is subjective it's like the word stress if you ask to define the word stress to different people you receive totally different answers in despite the fact that in

[36:34] the if you google it stress double point uncontrollable reactions from the organism on physiological and psychological pressure for most people stress means implementing pressure and so on no so and that's why [37:00] if you're not trying to avoid adding pressure to a dog and the dog knows how to switch it off it doesn't give stress to the animal because they know how to avoid it and they know how to switch it off so there is no stress it's controllable and dog training is good if the dog can control it right there is never stress so therefore definitions are [37:26] very important that means that the big drama today is what is the definition of negative reinforcement for a lot of people negative reinforcement means plus corrections and aversive stims that is not the definition of negative reinforcement for us the reinforcer is something that gives the dog a reason to do it again that's why you reinforce a behavior to come again and again and again and again and that [38:04] reinforcer can be positive you add something nice to make behavior happen again which is positive reinforcement or you stop the discomfort and stopping the discomfort and therefore is also a reason to do it again so that's why definitions are important the whole atmosphere in europe is sick about this definition of negative reinforcement they have another definition [38:37] and also the germans don't have any word really for it no it may uh the only word is what well they don't have a word for negative reinforcement for them the negative reinforcement is something you implement to stop behavior yes and that's where the whole drama did start with the old german definitions and the dog training in europe is a little bit influenced by the german school and that's why it went wrong and [39:06] and in in in the german school obedience is basically meaning being under submission yeah the definition of obedience under submission yeah yeah but but that's the definition of it yeah and so you see that affects your well the german word is under order so these these words trigger pet owners and i think they're good it's a good conversation to have [39:45] words like force leadership um submission control these words people like to humanize and say well i have a a canine a predator i'm bringing into my house and i am not going to put it get it under control right now i think that people are misled with the words leader

[40:10] alpha people think that people constantly argue and say i need to be the alpha of my dog i don't want to use treats i don't want to use these things to train you know that you can use strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy strategy interesting because I posted something about a video of Zot from two days ago. And one person wrote to me and said they liked it. And they said, it looks like it's just all playing. [40:36] It looks like it's just a big game. And that's really at the height of obedience, the height of obedience, at least for us, is that the dog wants you to tell him what you want him to do. That's where you want to be. And how do you get there? And that's what we try to teach people. [41:01] Yeah, I agree. The dog is waiting for you to say that because he wants to do it. It's not really, it is control, but it's control where the dog a little bit is controlling you to tell me that thing that you want me to do. We try to learn dogs techniques that are based on self-control. That means that the dog thinks that they think that they are in charge of the exercise. And if they love the [41:31] exercise and you just give them green light, go. It's a fantastic experience for the animal. And why should the animal not do that again? They love it so much. Everything that you want your dog to do, he must find his advantage in doing it and like to do it. And if he likes to do it and he's found his advantage, then why would he not do it? [41:57] Yeah, I agree. And there's, there's this saying is like, what's better than a child that listens, a child that chooses to do the right thing, right? Well, it's like the last school, one of our business advisors was there. And that gentleman has no dog, but he did implement everything we did say in the school to his kids, to his [42:24] children. And he said, Bart, it works so well. Of course, I manipulate them, but they don't know that I manipulate them. And now they do everything without mama or papa telling them you must do it. They do it from themselves. Because they want to. They want to. And everything is done pico bello. Cleaning the room, doing the little chores, and so on and so on. So it's very interesting.

[42:49] It's because it's the psychology of how animals learn. It's just, it's not just dogs. It's, it's any, you know, organism. Of course. Of course. So when I like to explain to like my clients, what the difference is between the luring and shaping is that it's like, if you told your kid, Hey, I'm going to give you $20 if you clean your room versus you clean your room and then you get $20 spontaneously. One is going to [43:15] encourage the child to go and repeat the behavior. The other, the child is waiting for the stimulus. You to tell them. Yeah. Well, right. And there again, it's about a definition. And for us, the direct reward is the reward creates the behavior. It's the reward. It's the activity of the reward that creates the [43:40] reactivity of the behavior. Whereas in the indirect reward, it is the behavior that makes the reward come to them or that let them get the reward. It's a totally different opinion. But you know, at the end, it's a little bit of mix of both systems and in indirect reward, you must be a better dog trainer. That's a fact because in indirect reward is about what do you mark with your marker? [44:11] Do you mark that he looks to you? Do you mark that he's faking looking to you? Do you, before you know, you are in another concept. It's like tracking, tracking with the money on the ground. With the reward on the ground, it's quite easy. But there you must be careful that the dog does not become obedient to the reward. We want the dog to become obedient to the track. It's a big difference. [44:40] So you cannot say that's better than that. You must understand both systems very well. And then some dogs, sometimes you must do a little bit direct reward to later do nothing. And then they will come in that exercise that have been rewarded before, but spontaneously. That means that imagine you always [45:06] lure your dog with food in your hands for three weeks. So he only eats if they follow that hand. Week number four, you don't do nothing. The dog is hungry. You know what he's going to do? He's going to start healing. He's going to do it spontaneously. So that is the... To make you lift your hand up. Of course. Of course. That means that your system was direct, but at a certain moment, the dog shifted to indirect.

[45:36] It's like click release. Imagine you click release for holding. The dog holds. You click release. He holds the bite sleeve. You click release. He holds the bite sleeve. You click and the dog says, I don't release anymore. Because now the biting is self-reward. So there is always a shift from one to the other. And that's the [46:03] fantastic thing where you must be that little talented dog trainer to see. That's what I want. I want my dog to become spontaneous active in healing. I want my dog to be more attracted by the truck than by the money I give. So that's the whole shift from one system to the other. There is always a shift. And when the dog shifts, you must be happy with that result. There's just different tools. And that's what I'm looking [46:31] forward to in my goal school when I'm yours. I'm going in less than a month. And that's what I'm looking to learn. The silver school put the fire in the pot and now it's boiling. And now I can go and clean up those little definitions that I can explore what you're talking about. I bought a treat and train after the school to focus on indirect rewards. And like you said, the dog now, I have to be more [46:57] focused on my mark, but now the spot, like the dog has more spontaneous activity. Well, they get, they get a confidence in solving it without you because they don't know that you're pushing the button. They think their behavior makes that machine give them stuff. It was very interesting. One time I had a customer dog and I was working with the manners minder and we had a seminar [47:25] in that state park in Maryland. And I was showing the manners minder with this dog and I didn't give him any commands. He was sitting down, stand, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Then I threw a ball and I let him go. And we were talking with the ladies and they were saying, wow, this is amazing. And while we were speaking, that dog went back and wanted to move that manners minder and he started doing it again. [47:51] And so of course I pushed because he thinks he's very strong and powerful and I had enough of that ball. I want some more food. So he just went back there by himself. He didn't know that I'm holding the remote. And then Tyjonder is dogs that do smell that you are quite dominant. For me, I'm a quite dominant guy. And when I give food out of my pockets, the dogs always look to me like you stinky bastards.

[48:21] They don't trust it. Do I dare take it? Yeah. So that's for me. I must throw it so that it does not come from me. Or I use the manners minder where I see a totally other dog. My daughter, for example, is a little sized woman. Her dogs are always crazy out of her hand. They will even do a hold up to get it out of her hand because she's not. Billy would take her fingers off if they need to. Of course. [48:50] And the same dog does not do that with me because they smell it. They know exactly who they do that with. Right. And that's when you must change the system that you have more. Right. You see that in the healing, for example, a dog, a lot of dogs in healing, for example, with luring, which is a good system also, the ears are up, ears are up, but the tail is between the legs. We call that active [49:16] submission. And then they try everything to make that dog be more flashy with the tail. Well, you must do nothing. Put your food away. And the dog will start to be very active. It's like the dog is too much concentrated. And there you must not change your food type. You must just change from direct to indirect. Or you put your target higher and higher. Right. More away from the dog. And that will create frustration. Distance. Yeah. And from frustration, the tail [49:50] will start waddling and so on and so on. It depends what you want. If you want a missive dog, you must go for the predictable reward, predictable reward, boring reward, predictable reward, direct reward. So it means that you must understand the systems very well. And then you can go in a certain direction. Because it's not because a dog has the tail low that the dog went over corrections. Right. [50:20] To do that. Right. It's maybe your reward system that was so boring, but so needed that the dog is in that. Of course, it's boring, but the dog needs it. And that's why they are very concentrated. I don't want to miss it. And I don't want to miss it. And they call that active submission. And if you want that picture, perfect. No problem. But if you don't want it. But if you don't want it, you must know how can I go away without changing the system. I just must change something in my system. [50:53] That's interesting. That's interesting. Because right now I have a Dutch Shepherd. His name is Vega. And I got him around seven months. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Is it the male or female? Male. Male. What's the name of the sister? Sister. He's from. What is it? What is it? You know that story? Hey, Bart. I don't know.

[51:19] Yeah. The name is Api. And the sister of Api is Chacha. And Chacha doesn't like Royal Kennen, but Api loves Purina Proplam. But the. And Api has a brother. But the parrot always steals. By the way, we got a parrot. Somebody wanted to give away that parrot. Those stories are always crazy with this and that. And then this person in the moment, but I wanted to ask you a question that I'm dealing with. He had an accident. So basically he's in the kennel all day for medical purposes. He chewed through his basically a hog joint. A hole through his hog joint in January. And for five months, I mean, I've been at the vet and whatever. [52:03] The point that I'm trying to make is that he's been getting lots of room service, which means I'm going to him and rewarding him because he can barely move. But I'm noticing, like you said, active submission. So the tail tubs, I pet him. Like it's not. He has never been abused or anything. But when I pet him, the tail tubs. So I'm like, why? Why do some dogs? You know, it's because by accident, they had those submissive, typical behavior pictures. And for them, it's a way to get money. Now, if you pet him and the dog goes in submission, you wait, you go away until dogs in hope. Again, you come closer. Very. [52:45] Very. And you see the ears changing. You go away. Within half an hour, you will have another type of dog. It's like Michael has a fantastic dog, the young dog. But lately he starts to do a little bit panting. So we know that that is a little stress signal also. So you wait until the panting stops and then you click within one week. The dog will understand all exercises only start when I'm not panting. When I'm my most closed. [53:19] And these are the two things. But yesterday I was starting to teach him that I took away the Frisbee. I put it away and he wanted to get it back. But he doesn't know I want him to shut his mouth, obviously. So he was sitting, he was down and he was jumping on the leg. He was backing up. He was doing every, everything. Beautiful stuff. So I guess I'm going to start that today instead of yesterday.

[53:45] And then by accident, he will do what Michael wants and then she will click and give him a lot of ayayayayay. And then later, if the dog has the mouth closed, you put it on the verbal command. You speak when you're happy. And later when he's panting, you can say, shut your mouth. You can take two months before you come there. Yeah. But you can control all the muscles. You can. It's just a little bit. So first it must be spontaneous. Then after that, you will continue to reinforce that behavior. [54:18] Yes. And you name it when you're happy. Yes. And then of course, when they realize they get paid for it, before it's even named, they offer it to get paid. And when you know they're going to offer it, then you name it. But Tajon, that's work. That does not work in two weeks. It can work, but it can take three months. So for that art of training, you need a little bit more time than the classic 21 days that you get, you know? [54:46] Yeah. Yeah. That it's interesting. You brought back the three weeks because Michael three weeks is a lot. And if you have multiple dogs to train a focus heel and all of those commands in three weeks, I really commend you on that. Well, I never took more than three board and trains at a time. Okay. So I only had three board and trains. I had two dogs of my own. And a lot of times I had boarders who had already come through the board and train. So they knew everything. [55:16] And then I gave lessons also. And I went to, I belonged, I had a membership to a state park. So I was driving everywhere. So they were in the car. They were busy. Yeah. We were busy. I was busy. We went places. Did you have time for your men? I was busy. I was busy. I was busy. I was busy. Well, now you guys, so at this point, are you guys feeling burnt out or like, what is the future for neighborhood and schools? [55:45] I just went and did silver school guys. And if you are looking at enrolling and if you're on the borderline about doing it, anyone in the audience, I would encourage you to do it. Because for me, one of my best experiences there was being able to meet like-minded people, being able to speak about the burnout, being able to eat and have conversations about why does this happen? And that is one of the biggest benefits of science in itself is.

[56:11] Well, that's a funny thing. Bart was just talking to me last night about that. He said, why was everybody so jammed up after that event? And I said, because they're with like-minded people. That you all are in the same system. Suffering? Suffering? Suffer together. It's important. That's part of the school is that you suffer together on purpose. [56:39] The graduation is not given. So that certificate, you must work hard. Yeah. And of course we push the people quite hard to stay in that mindset, but that creates a magic bond between all the people that did suffer. It's like in the army, all the people that did suffer during military service, they have a special bond that you don't have in a normal school. [57:05] You don't. Yeah. It's the little unhappy moments and the sufferance. And it's like me yesterday. Those guys at Chicago did make me wait 10 hours a half before taking a plane. And at the end, when it flies, you're happy and you say, thank you for flying me. Are you kidding me? Yes. United sent you a, they want your feedback on your flight. [57:31] My feedback, they will have my feet, but no back. I agree. The suffering every single day. So for people who want to insight of what the school was like, every single day we had tests and together we had to like study and do a group study. And I mean, I'm watching everyone in the room sweat bullets. And even though Michael's like, Oh, don't stress out. Don't do this. We are stressed trying to get the best grade that we can, because we really want, I mean, we paid, we bought into this. [58:01] So I told people, I'm like, we're in this experiment, right? Speaking of your favorite book, the talent code. And right now we're, we're under stress. And now we have to, we're forced to meet and communicate with other people that, you know, otherwise we might have never spoken to. And that creates relationships that creates bonds. And I still speak to my fellows like students. Um, and someone asked, are there any resources you recommend for owner trainers to learn more about your system who can't access the schools? [58:35] Well, let us answer there on the website, you will have all the NAPOPOP Golds and all the NAPOPOP Gold multiplicators, and they will be happy to help. Michael and I, because momentum is there. We do that school in June, which is filling, filling up quite fast again.

[59:01] Then we do a school in the Netherlands in Europe, where they come from all the world again, that is also filling up. And we know that not everybody has a, the money to come. We know that. B, we know that not everybody has the desire, has the desire to go so long away from home. [59:27] So we gonna probably make an online course that next year people can do the online training. But it won't be the same because you won't have that networking and like Michael said, there will be no breakfast together, no lunch together, no dinner together, no bonding. It will be another harmony. Yeah, but people will be able to see, for example, one block and the block will be the homework. [59:58] We will start with the homework and what is the relationship between the talent code and the movie bug. And so on and so on, because it's important that we speak about that. And then when people do the homework very well, then the first block and then again, half an hour, one hour. [60:23] And we know also that the whole world will put a camera on the online teaching. We know that and they will give it to each other. We want to reach millions of people to stop the lie that dogs should be trained by positive only. Positive only is a good system, but it is not the only system. And if positive becomes the only system, we're gonna do a big genocide. [60:49] And the whole dog population in the name of who animal welfare. Right. Are you kidding me? So it's about. Well, that's that's exactly right. It's like when the when your dogs, when you have dogs come in for boarding trains that are a little bit. Shut down. They don't like this. They don't like they don't like food. What are you going to do? Not feed them for two weeks. What are you going to do? [61:14] So I'm going to go to my next question. But before we get into the force free and positive only, I actually wanted to ask you, Bart, because I just want people to know who you guys are and what you stand for. So, Bart, you used to be against e-callers. So did I. You guys both did not want to use e-callers on dogs. So what made you want to make that change? Well, just talk to us more about that and I'll change the battery again. Go ahead. [61:44] OK. OK. It's easier in the beginning. Everybody starts to be very motivated. We are very motivated dog trainers, but we don't know that we know nothing. So we are in the majority. So it means that in the beginning you do the best you can and you think that it works with a little kibble, a little bit of cheese, a little bit reward.

[62:12] And then in my case, I did buy a dog. I never forget his name. Flop. And Flop was a guy, a dog that was trained by a guy that was seven times Belgian champ. Well, and I was thinking that I could control that dog. Well, I could not. It was impossible. And then one day I was a friend of my club with the e-collar and I told him, Lou, because his name was Lou, give me that e-collar. [62:40] Yeah, but Bart, what if it breaks? I will pay you. No problem. And then I just did push the button and that dog did do everything with one zap on the bottom. And then that day I changed my mind drastically from no go. I went to, whoa, why did I fight this so long? That was me. So, Michael, you're. Yeah, well, I had a very well trained dog, but he likes squirrels. [63:08] And what are you going to do? Nothing I had to compete with a squirrel. And Bart knows that from living in Missouri. So if you have no, the, the, the e-collar is just an extension of your leash. And of course, once they understand it, you don't need to, you don't need to go, go to extremes. [63:34] It's just a little tap. Hey, I'm still there. You're still on the leash. So one thing about the e-collar misconception, and it goes back to the definitions, is that everyone is saying that the dog from the beginning is listening because of discomfort. Is that a true, is that true or false? That the dog is listening from the beginning that it's all from the start from discomfort? [64:00] Well, absolutely not. I don't think. I don't think. I think that what people must understand about negative reinforcement, which means we stop the nagging pressure. The reward comes at behavior. The behavior is immediately the reward. And that's why negative reinforcement goes so fast. And it's clear. It's clear. If you work with positive reinforcement, there is a lot of bridges in between the click and the dip and the beep and whatever. [64:30] And they must be hungry and they must offer behavior. Yeah. And they must have the good drives because if they don't have the good drives, it's very hard. But it's very interesting because I posted a video of my horse running in from the pasture to get his dinner. Full speed. Full speed with no e-collar. Full speed with no e-collar. And I had some trolls on my page that were writing novels saying he's only coming because he's threatened.

[65:00] But I'm telling you. A horse that is free and treaded runs away. Right. And also lots of horses. Yeah. It's one thing. Most horses, if they get in a routine, will come in for their food if they like their food. From the pasture to their food. That's something they want to do. So having a trained animal is actually having something that they maybe wouldn't naturally do that by themselves, but that they do with heart and soul and have harmony. [65:34] That's training. This is natural, completely natural. But, you know, your question is based on the evolution that we did make as dog trainers from no e-collars to, of course, with an e-collar or with a pinch collar or with a choke collar. We believe in education. That's very important. And it's a little bit an evolution. You know, it's like in the politics. When you're young, you're green, then you're ripe a little bit. [66:02] You become red, then you're ripe a little bit more and you become brown. That's a little bit the politic evolutions. It's like me when I was a young guy, I come out of a family where I was a little bit spoiled. So I wanted to protest against that. And I did became with my, I'm a teacher, I'm a school teacher, but with my diploma, I went to be what you guys call a stevedore at the port of Antwerp, because I wanted to be a worker, which rats in the politics. [66:34] And at the bridge where we did receive the work, it was a bridge. We were picking between what do you pay? That's not enough. What do you pay? That's not enough. What do you pay? Aha, that starts to be interesting. So I was a worker, but I was not a worker. I was a little entrepreneur and I was working for the money. And after two years, I was thinking, Bart, this is against your principles. I became a capitalist instead of a socialist. [67:03] But slowly I accepted it. And now Michael and I, we are entrepreneurs. We have a big business that runs well, but it started another way. And now we do all the things we were protesting against when we were young. It's the same in dog training. In the beginning, if I see with Michael, we see a lot of naive people, naive people that have not too much experience.

[67:29] And they preach you the only positive system. I'm not mad to them because I was the same, but it means that they still have to ripe a little bit. And they will change their mind over the years because you cannot make them change their mind. They will change their mind with a dog that is changing their mind. It will come. And it just needs time. And people still think when you say, when you tell people to use negative reinforcement with their dog, they think it's punishment. [68:00] But do you have an e-caller and access to you right now? I do. So I have, you know, I have my system here and then you can get it off my dog. But that's the thing in the old days, 15 years ago, that's how people used to test e-calls to see what worked at a good working level. They put an e-caller on and they'd wait until there was a reaction, a physical reaction. [68:27] And that's why in the school, as we always did it, we would put an e-caller on and we would wait until we saw a physical reaction. And then we would ask the people, did you feel it before that? And the answer is yes. Because that's the level of healing. Sorry, I took it off of him. [68:54] That's a healer for you. He was mad. That's a healer for you. He was mad. Yeah, very hopeful. But you understand what I'm saying is that a lot of education. Do I use an e-caller much different now than I did 20 years ago? Yes. 15 years ago? Yes. [69:19] There is also a difference in the quality of the e-callers today and 30 years ago. I mean, I was against the e-callers in the old days because when a helicopter did fly over, the dog was zapped. If the police were speaking with each other with the CBs, the dog was zapped. So it was non-reliable radio technology. But over the years, all that became better. [69:46] And if you go to the good classic brands, it's a good quality. And of course, shit can happen. It's like a rocket that flies to the moon. It has been made by very intelligent people. But there also some things can happen. It's always the same. I mean, yes, you need an evolution as a dog trainer. In the beginning, you are very passionate but naive. But you are in the majority. [70:12] And that's the reality. The majority of dog trainers, they don't know too much. But that's where the votes are. And that's why the politicians today choose for the majority of people to introduce laws that makes no sense. It makes no sense, but they introduce them. What they are not conscious about is that they create a big genocide on dogs that will come in the name of animal welfare.

[70:39] So what is animal welfare? You said it twice, Mark. What is animal welfare? Well, animal welfare, it's everything that should be done to create a nice thing for the dog. There is a definition. The law of animal welfare says it is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make your dog suffer. [71:04] That means that with a valid reason, you must inflict pain so that you save a human being from the bite of a dog. Or you must inflict pain to make sure that you save the life from the dog. And if you don't do that, you have another problem. For example, I'm a soldier and I'm in war and my dog bites an enemy. [71:30] And I cannot out my dog because I could not train the reality. And my general did not give me the tools to make my dog out. And there the cameras are on that case. Well, me, the soldier, I will go for the Geneva Convention because the Geneva Convention says that you must respect your enemies as your best friends. You must treat them well. Well, by not outing the dog, you don't treat them well. [71:57] So I go on court in front of the Geneva Convention people. And then me, the soldier, I will say, well, my general did not give me the tools to make my dog out. And in training, we never did bite on the skin of a person. We always train in what we call an artificial situation. So it means that in that case, you, the soldier, must inflict pain to that dog. [72:23] You must stop the suffering from the other soldier that is bitten. And this is things that is very important. I remember three months ago, there was a video from a gentleman and I will not name names, that was training a dog with the e-collar. And you did hear vocalization, vocalization yet, but you did not see changing of the tail position. And there was a lot of la la la la la going on on Facebook. [72:50] And then students call us and say, hey, Michael, Bart, why don't you make a statement? Then we said, well, it's easy. Animal welfare says it is forbidden without valid reason to inflict pain or to make a dog suffer. Maybe that dog was on that row and maybe the trainer had to inflict pain to make that dog understanding certain rules of engagement.

[73:15] We don't know. We don't know. You never trust a video that you see a little fragment of on. So and now is lots of videos where people are getting canceled because they, well, we don't have the context. So it's like. That's important. About what is the context behind what the trainer was doing? And all it really does is reinforce a large group of people that control the masses and say, hey, we're going to cancel this individual. [73:44] They feel empowered. But what's happening is we're not having the opportunity to one, educate the trainer and to educate the people that maybe this dog is going to get put down. If we do. Right. No. Exactly. They don't know. We don't know. So, and that's why we don't react on things like that, because we don't have all the information needed. And that's it. I mean. So what are now actually want to critique what we consider balance training, like, because we do know that positive only does not is not inclusive to all dogs, but a lot of people do shitty balance training. [74:24] And that also hurts us as trainers who are trying to advocate for doing the right thing. So I want to ask, what are some potential negative consequences of using punishment in animal training? In your history, are people too heavy handed or like what are what's your advice on using punishment in animal training? You know, it's a very difficult question that I, John, what is pain? [74:49] That's where it starts. What is pain for you makes maybe me enjoyable. It's enjoyable. So it's hard to it's a very, very difficult question. And that's why judging those things are very, very complicated. What I want to say is what I did not say in your previous question. So animal welfare has been introduced in Europe 1933 by the German SS. [75:19] We were not very human friendly, by the way. And then the animal welfare project was against the home slaughter from Jewish people. So they wanted to nag the Jewish people by introducing those animal welfare laws. And then at the end. People that have that extreme animal welfare agenda. The question is, what is that agenda towards people? You see what I mean? [75:45] So Michael and me, we are very careful with all those things. And if you see in Europe, everything with animal welfare always starts around Germany, a little bit northern from Germany or in Germany. The first world convention animal welfare was, I think if my information is well, Nuremberg, Germany. There again, Nuremberg was the center of the SS companies and so on and so on.

[76:11] I mean, it's scary to think about all that. And a lot of people who, and I won't say all, but a lot of people who call themselves balanced trainers use positive training, positive reinforcement training, and they use negative reinforcement training, avoidance training, but they only use the reward of positive training. And they only use the punishment of avoidance training. [76:37] And that is what we call. Popone. Popone. And that can give a bad name to tools and to balanced trainers because the dog doesn't understand how to escape into behind. And that can't escape into behavior because he's only, he does well. He's trained in popo, popo, popo, popo, popo, popo, popo, popo. [77:02] And then one day they say, and now I'm sick and tired of you not doing, now you're going to get punishment. So now they're speaking a completely different language. And a lot of times, all that good work that you did in popo, where you had that dog that's super motivated, maybe not always listening. But super motivated, good attitude. It's. And that John, it's typically for the sport world. [77:28] I think that more than 90% of dog people in the sport world train with positive reinforcement as a reward, but use the correction, the plus correction from negative reinforcement. Right. The popone. And a good dog can take it because that's the way that we did select the dogs 30 and 40 years ago. [77:53] A dog that can take that type of training is a strong dog. And we needed strong dogs. Of course, the question was, can we still wash 20 dogs before having one good dog? And that's the eternal question. So, Michael and I, we are dog trainers. We don't select dogs. We are dog trainers and we train every dog. [78:18] We picked Zot due to the mother and the father. And out of the litter, we picked him on color. Well, yeah, we had the last 10 years, Michael and I had all our dogs were black moly noise or black shepherds. And we want to go back to the red one. So the red one was easy. It was only one one. Well, it's the first pick. No, it was not the first pick. It was the only pick. There was only one red male. [78:45] No, it was a dog. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's not a problem. But we want to go back to our roots. And we in Belgium did mix a lot of bloodlines. Because normally the moly noise is a 40 pound dog and we have dogs from plus 60 pounds. So we had to cross it with the German Shepherd that was a little bit more stable. And in the beginning the moly noise was a nervous wreck and we had to cross it with the stable German Shepherd.

[79:13] But in the old days we had a very, very hard selection. Today we don't select anymore. We train what we have. So, and that's a good evolution. But if it's a good evolution for genetics, that's something else. What we do see is bad lousy training gives strong genetics. Good training gives weak genetics. That's a fact. [79:38] Because the good, well-trained dog, that's the bread, the dog that's going to be bread. That's the one who shows well. It's easier. If you look to the sports, IGP is a selection of the good dog trainer. The good dog trainers that do win IGP. And of course the material must be okay. In Belgian ring sports, it's the best dog that wins. So I was always amazed to see that. [80:04] I went to see training from other guys and I was understanding nothing about the whole training. And I was thinking, what the hell? And I went back and back and at the end the conclusion was, it is just a good dog. That's it. But those guys have one dog and the name of the dog is by accident. The name of the club is by accident. The name of the whole environment is by accident. And they never have a second dog. [80:30] Never, never, never. But that one dog was an extreme good dog. And that was the result of operant conditioning. That dog did train himself. That's it. And the dog did perform well by staying in the rules where the owner can make points. That's it. It's very interesting to see that, you know. So you're saying that they were unable to basically repeat and win again or compete again. [80:58] And it was just by chance. Yes, they have no system. They have no system. They have no system. They just had a good dog. That's it. Okay. And a good dog takes all your bullshit. They ask a lot of times to Michael and me, what is a good dog? Well, for us, a good dog is a dog that dares, dares to be disobedient in the favor of the team. [81:23] For example, we are sleeping at night. The dog is sleeping in the house and the dog is growling. We say, shut your mouth. And she continues growling. Shut your mouth. And she starts barking. And then we say, huh, maybe we should go look. Yeah. And we open the door and we see the house is on fire. So it means that a good dog must dare to be disobedient in the profit of the team.

[81:53] That's a good dog. Because the good dog that obeys very well will not dare to bark anymore. And the house is burning down. Right. Because it's a very good obedient dog. They need to listen. But they also need to be able to still think. Yeah. They have independent thinking, creative mind. Like they need to be independent and not so dependent on you for everything. [82:18] Well, if you, I know something about the sports, Tajon. If you look to IGP, obedience is millimeter work. Always the same. Always the same. Always the same. Always the same. Tracking is the only question. But bite work. Always the same. Always the same. Always the same. And of course, it's a very difficult sport. French ring sport. Always the same. Always the same. [82:43] Always the same. The Dutch cane PV. Always the same. Always the same. Always the same. And then you have the Belgian ring sports in the variation. It is always about the fantasy. There is a program that nonstop changes. So that means that you need a dog in the Belgian ring sport that is operant conditioning trained. Operant conditioning. That's the dog that assimilates very well and that generalize very well. [83:11] And in the other sports, you need a dog that stays in the program. If you need a dog that likes to bark, you must go to the KNPV. From frustration, the dog must bark. Because there is a lot of barking involved in that program. So if you need a passive guard dog, the general rule is don't go to the KNPV dog. Because from nature, the dog likes to bark from frustration. [83:36] And these are things that you must know if you pick dogs, you know. Yeah. And then if you want a dog that moves very well to get the target bitten, then you must go to the French ring sports where the decoys are athletes that do everything to not make the dog bite. And there you are with your buffalo that is strong, but it cannot catch the helpers. [84:01] You say it with your buffalo. Yeah. I mean. Next question. Fire. Okay. So my next question, Bart, is I wanted to ask about like balance training. What is one of the biggest mistakes you see with the balance trainers? Well, first of all, it's not balanced. And people implement the negative reinforcement on a too high level too fast.

[84:36] And people implement plus corrections too fast. Mm-hmm. And the question is, does the dog understand the job? If the dog understands the job, of course you can give a correction. But should that correction, should that such a high level? It's not because I steal a bonbon or chewing gum that I must have the death penalty as a consequence. Right. And that's what some dog trainers do. So I mean, there is also something you must understand. [85:05] Michael and I, we like dogs with a little bit power. We like dogs that did smoke a little bit cigarettes, that did drink a little bit beer, that are... We like dogs that have a little brutal sight. Because that's the dog and it's like in the miracle worker, that little lady that was deaf and could not speak and blind. [85:32] That little lady was a wild animal. And that wild animal was trained by the miracle worker, by the nanny to be very, very complying. But basically she was a free thinker that did drink beer and cigarettes. She did what she wanted for a couple of years. Yes, it was a little bit, a couple of years. And that's what was the power of my daughter. [85:58] Yeah, I was just going to say that. My daughter on purpose tried to do her stinky best to make her dogs obedient, but the dogs became wilder and wilder. Well, I was just, I was thinking that Enos, Enos did whatever she wanted when she was younger. She did that also, but she does not try to do that with the dogs, but she does it, but not on purpose. And then we try to copy that system on purpose, but we cannot do it so well like she does it on voluntary. [86:26] You see what I mean? Yeah. Well, it's like... Yes, you see there's some pet people that make... They don't, they think they're making a monster, but it's what sport people want and they don't know how they did it. It's... Yeah. It's like lately I saw a very good... They would pay them. I saw a very good question on Facebook. It was a novice dog trainer in bite sports and that trainer said, why when a dog has a ball and whatever, the dog is choked? [87:02] And why does that choking increasing the desire to hold that ball again? And it's a fantastic question. And our answer was, well, the question is fantastic, but we need to write a book about it because you cannot answer it like that. It's about the hope. And Michael will tell you that they do tests with rats that they were trying to draw. You take over? Yeah, they, it was a little bit barbaric.

[87:29] I think it was in the fifties and sixties and they were testing wild rats and domesticated rats and wild rats, rats when they're trapped in a bucket where they can't escape, they swim to the bottom. They see they can't escape and they die. Wow. Domestic rats, domesticated rats lasted a little bit longer. And then they tested the wild rats by rescuing them before they were drowning, letting them dry, dry off, and then putting them back. [88:04] And what the ones that were rescued previously had hoped that maybe they would be rescued again, even though there's no way to escape. Maybe they're going to survive. So they lasted like, it was 60 times longer or something like that. It was crazy. It's a little bit, the thing that we did see when I was a young guy, they said there is a club not too far and they have always good biters. [88:32] And I was triggered by that and I went there to see and I was disappointed because the helper was 62 years old. And yes, the dogs were biting very hard. And at the out I saw choking, but the dogs were not outing. The dog must do everything and the choking is an incentive to bite harder. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. [88:58] The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. The dog will say that. harder choking because there is not one helper that can choke those 80 pound of dogs with [89:27] a costume on and with a big chain so they were taking a little bit air away and then giving air again and the animals were biting harder and harder it means that when pressure is lower than the hope it's a reinforcer to continue do better and harder what you do you understand that and and you make them tougher and tougher and from that day we did start to do all these things on purpose for example we don't want the dog to out we choke [89:58] them a little bit we give air again we choke them a little bit we give air again and on the ball the same thing and that makes the dogs crazy and crazier on that ball more and more hope well that's a little circle bar to when you said some dogs pain and suffering right so they love it yeah but yeah why are dogs pulling like crazy in the streets to go pee they

[90:24] pull nobody learns them to pull on purpose but they learn that yeah they love it that's what and when they come at the end the pressure stops and they can pee and poo for example so but nobody learns them on purpose to pull and nobody and speaking of peeing and pooing we never reward our dogs for peeing and pooing because the reward is peeing and pooing of course it's self-reinforcing i understand it's of course yeah that's the reward the pressure stops right you know how it feels [90:58] yeah so i mean guys i have some questions from the audience that's pretty much all my questions but i want to address georgia smith any suggestions from switching a dog who is trained old popone i think that's what she means and then have the nerves for it she puts depressed heart and soul to the new system any suggestions for that well start from zero start from zero again hey it's you must learn that dog the [91:27] alphabet of your system because people switch systems but they don't learn the alphabet they go immediately to the end stadium right you must go to the first level of the alphabet and always rewarding and that can be always stimming always stimming means if you do positive reinforcement you reward always if you do negative reinforcement tap tap tap stops so you must start again from low in every behavior and if you [91:56] already did up your pinch color or your e-collar you tap low level you pinch color and feed the dog existential food one tap and when you see that the top very low yeah if you see that the top excites the dog now you can start again your abc but that's a little bit why we added the new napopo and the new step one is because people were training dogs that weren't so strong and probably using too high negative [92:28] reinforcement corrections before they're ready and so forth and you need a dog that's very prepared once you have a dog that's very prepared you can use the old napopo john it's easier people want to do university with pups well if that would work why don't they do it with human beings why don't they do that with children well children goes to nursery school nursery school children go to the first [92:57] degree and when they're 18 19 years then if needed they go to university but you don't start in university it's impossible and people want to go too fast in that university idea with young puppies and there you see of course a nice pup that does the sit down stand still but there is no heart and soul and one year later you don't see that pup anymore you say where's that dog well he was weak we washed him out

[93:26] and so on and so on i mean there was a little bit what we did see in the sport world of course if you train a dog for people that cannot control a dog with fire it's maybe a very good system as a pet dog trainer to train that dog in the old maple pool it's another problem and a lot of times they have they have enough to start in the old napo boat because they're they're so smart a lot of those [93:55] family dogs that have gotten away with everything gotten into the trash and gotten they do behaviors yeah they're they are doing behaviors that are self-reinforcing like you said why does it spontaneously versus when you ask them to do it so if you guys got a puppy and let's say you guys were pet owners right what would be your first what would be your go-to how would you spend the first two weeks with that new puppy for being a pet [94:20] i would just take it places and potty train it that's the we call it what people do too fast is cooling dogs we like to give dogs what we call basic house manners right education well it's like in my day when i was a young kid we had a education from home a home education and then we went to school for [94:52] becoming smarter or learning abcs but nowadays that function has been shifting and they expect the school to give the basic education that kids don't receive home anymore so basic education we were like a dog that can live in the house that can go with you that is quite stable in the environments that you [95:18] can brush that you can touch the nails we call that the basic education and we don't train them right for sit down or stand still spending time spending time with them and getting them used to the environment and used to people and liking food and eating out of your hand and yeah loving the crate loving yeah loving the crate getting used to writing the car what their everyday life is gonna be yes for example you [95:48] did you had that example of that dog that did break through his crate by john you train a dog well our advice would be never close the door of that crate if the dog by accident goes in that crate there is food if the dog by accident goes in the crate there is food if the dog by accident goes in the crate there is no food next time there is food again make a gambling system out of it or when the dog is in the crate

[96:16] you click release to you so make it a game and you never never close that bloody door because that's where the kennel stress starts because you put them in jail and the dogs are locked for a few hours and more you see that a lot so leave the kennel door open and let the dog take the decision i go towards my jail myself which is not a jail right our dogs always love the kennels love it yeah they're going great and [96:46] they love it we will never have a dog that bites holes in the crate never yeah we just have those little very kennels there is a reason why they do that there there is a reason it's like having a child and not giving them any way to express themselves yes yes it's just puts them down shuts them down that's what i tell people i say you the problem is you just threw them in there you didn't even give them opportunity to learn what it's going to be like right well when we picked up zot he'd never been [97:16] in a crate and when i first put him in his crate he started howling and having a total fit so i carried him home and then later we just we didn't put him in a crate until he liked to go in the crate and then when he liked to go in the crate we shut the gate and then we opened it again and then later when he fell asleep in the crate as soon as we heard him move we let him out of the crate so we never waited until [97:44] he asked us i need to go out you must there before that yes and he loves it now he always goes as soon as i let him in first thing he does going is great oh okay i don't have to i don't have to go in there okay john we always change for example when we put we should take a video from our kennels outside we never put a dog in the kennel from the front door it always goes from the back side as puppies as a puppy [98:13] that they cannot see us go away and we never go to the front of the kennel and pet them we don't give them hope never there's no no it's like in the house if you wake up and if you do the same routines within two weeks the dogs start yapping and they start barking and so on and so on so we never do that when we wake up in the morning we always do different things change routines yes and some days

[98:39] just wouldn't brush the teeth huh yeah i'm playing guys we can make coffee we can let the other dog out we can go check the mail we can go to the service center then we let him out or we can wake up i've woken up at four o'clock in the morning and let him out at four o'clock i mean it's totally different but he's not he has no expectations of course of course we can do that because we a only have two [99:08] dogs and two we have the time to do that a little bit and three they get a lot of exercise during the day that's what i was going to say is that some people don't have that ability like they're going to work like you said like they wake up and they have a routine because they have a career they have something to do that's fine when i'm working yes but i when i had a dog when i was working at the va [99:37] and i had to get up really early but i always went running for a mile and a half and i took my dog so my dog got exercised and he had to stay home while i was at work no problem now john i should like to go back to michael and i for years they teach small groups of people we did not reach enough people that means that with the last school we did reach 150 people it's a lot but it is nothing we want [100:07] to reach thousands of people we want to reach 100 thousands of people we want to reach millions of people and the whole idea to reach millions of people with the full quadrant not a left side or right side no the full quadrant and then it's up to people to use their quadrant they like or mixing and we preach tolerance tolerance means we accept that other people have another way of training [100:37] no problem but don't oblige us to just train with negative reinforcement only or don't oblige us to just train with positive reinforcement only we want the whole quadrant and that's very important for us by the way you know that little game tamaguchi tamaguchi everyone knows i know tamaguchi i didn't [101:02] i didn't know it well i'm gonna tell you something do you have an idea how many tamaguchis were sold over the world i believe it was well over at least 40 million 50 million units 83 million wow so 83 million and the price was 15 euro michael and i we must reach hundreds of thousands and millions of people and that's why we go to that

[101:35] system where we create reproducers the multiplicators we create systems where we're going to teach online for thousands of people not five people but thousands of people and we are busy creating a game an application where people can do positive reinforcement negative reinforcement napo poor reinforcement we're going to reach millions to reach millions and millions and millions of people with the full [102:04] quadrant and then the politicians will listen to us because for the moment they listen to the politicians listen to the majority even when the majority is quite restricted in their systems that's why positive reinforcement only is the politics system to go because they have the most followers and we did try a lot by telling politicians blah blah blah blah blah blah they don't listen to the truth no they don't [102:32] listen to facts they're not trainers the only facts they are looking to is how many followers do you have people and we want to have millions and millions of people within two years from now we're going to reach that but write it down within two years we're ready for that and then we're going to stop because we know exactly what people need people need information and the total information not a reduced information [103:04] and we're going to do that with a game gaming playing is the way to learn game with people and we are 100 convinced that in two years we're going to reach our targets and we're going to reach our targets give us two years and michael and i of course we make a lot of money but we reinvest everything so we dream that we dare and we do and we can live a little bit tight [103:35] no problem so but give us two years and we do it and we're gonna do what not one politic party could do we're gonna do what none not one sport organization could do not a dog organization could do we're gonna reach the millions and millions and millions of people because for example only in belgium we have i think 12 million people we have three million dogs three million dogs wow official in united states i [104:06] think you guys have 350 million people and close to i think registered more than 100 million dogs that means that behind every dog there is a dog owner and the dog owner has the right on the full information and the full information is the full quadrant in all the power and then it's upon the people to pick and choose but to accept that other people have another way and michael and i we are for

[104:33] what we call dogs that are free but listen we how do we call it again responsible dog ownership that's what we believe in and if you can do responsible dog ownership with only positive reinforcement fine and if you can do it with only negative reinforcement fine but don't oblige other people to do it like you do never do that so you were at the school we teach everything and we hope that one day people will be [105:03] tolerant for people that make responsible dog ownership and if the dog looks happy and is listening and behaving well and is healthy what's the problem there is none so i want to recap for all my followers and the people here listening the plan that they have is that they're going to create a dog game a simulation for you to experiment with the theory in a fun engaging way and then the next after that is that they have an [105:36] online platform that they're creating so that they can reach more people even if they know you guys are going to screen record it and share with the family that they're removing the ego and saying you know my priority is dogs not money yes yeah yes you guys can learn and become possibly a silver student and then after that you could become a gold student and then after that you become a teacher where you can help [106:03] spread the message and that this can live on and we can reach millions of people am i correct yes yes yes you are correct sir you you're you catch on i yeah i got it i just wanted to make sure everyone understood the question that i have because i am en route and on that path myself is that i'm going to do gold and i wanted to ask what are you guys what is your system to become a teacher that's a good question for the new golds right now new golds will stay new golds but there will always [106:38] be a a possibility that new golds can become a multi-multiplicator i mean what you must understand that john is that there is a lot of churches but not a lot of basilics it means that there is a lot of soccer players but there is not a lot of maradona's a lot of people want to be teacher but we cannot [107:03] predict michael and i cannot predict who is becoming the best teacher and who's going to survive we know exactly that a lot of multiplicators were by free will engaging in the system some of them will do very well some of them will stop after one session because it's like teaching sometimes the teaching is nice but you are not good in

[107:30] the human relationship with the other human beings so we know exactly that after a while we're going to see who's going to survive in the system some people can speak some people can speak and not train some people can train but can't speak and some people can speak very well and train very well but they are a little bit rough to the other people so yes that's not going to work either you you see that with x factors there is people that can [107:56] sing very well but nobody buys the single because they don't like the person and then there is a guy like me that cannot sing and i sell five millions of right it's just mumble shit that i'm saying they want to whatever his name is yeah it's the charisma what i from my understanding is the charisma it's the people wanting to gravitate to certain people and then there's the follow-through [108:22] is that the students are successful and that's what i think in my mind would make me ready to become a teacher in the system is just focusing on mastery and then understanding am i able to replicate that mastery through deep coaching of other people and the more you're going to do it the better you're going to be right and the more you're going to do it you say whoa i'm non-stop evaluating [108:48] because i did not understand it like that you see what i mean so maybe we get to come here in in august yeah we can do that but hey that john we are very long on the podcast we can do a next one if you want one more thing for you guys one more thing for you guys is i want [109:25] you ! you ! you Thank you. [109:57] Thank you. [110:27] That's what we see worldwide. And we have to be on the right side of wrong. Yeah. Ask me what my political visions are. The right side of wrong. Yeah. That's a good one. Well, the opposite of wrong. The opposite of wrong. Yes. The opposite of wrong. All right, guys. [110:52] That's all I have. So we'll end there. This is going to be in replay. My team is going to work on getting it translated in as many languages as possible as soon as possible. If you have any questions about dog training, reach out to me. You can reach out to Michael and Bart on Facebook as well. And don't forget to register for the next school that we have coming up. And thank you guys for your time and tuning in. You take care and have a great day. Thanks a lot. [111:17] Bye. Bye. Unleashing the future of dog training - Taijon Duverger Unleashing The Future of Dog Training