E182: 뎁 존스(Deb Jones) - "협력적 케어를 위한 새로운 가상 타이틀 프로그램"

But I thought that maybe this is the right time for this, that maybe this is the time when I could put together some sort of program with what I think are some of the most important life skills for dogs and put it in a way that people would find it valuable and it would motivate them to work more towards mastery of some of those skills and behaviors. As I mentioned, you've got the book, the class, another certificate program. So you talked to us a little bit in your last answer, but, you know, why is this an important topic, especially with you? Okay. Yeah. Once I get into a topic, I usually get into it really, really deeply. And that's happened with I tend to start to look at something and then peel back all the layers. And the further into it you go, the further, the more there is to learn. And the more there is for me, that's really interesting and important. The first thing I'd say, the reason that I got into this is because all dogs need physical care. There is not a dog on the planet who isn't going to need grooming or veterinary care. Those things are going to happen. And over and over again, what we see is that this is unpleasant for them, that there might be a lot of force and pressure and coercion involved. And then it becomes very traumatic, not only for the dog, but for the owner, because we typically don't like doing unpleasant things to our dogs either. And then it starts to become a battle. And then things just go downhill. So I wanted to avoid that happening to start with. And there's a lot we can do to make all this better. If we prepare our dogs ahead of time, especially, rather than waiting until after the fact and then trying to do cleanup, though sometimes that's how it works. Sometimes we don't realize we have a problem until we have a big problem with our cooperative care training. But there's still a lot we can do. Always better to be proactive and to get in early and to train the things that are likely to be behaviors that would be helpful and procedures that would be helpful for cooperative care work. But even after the fact, even after you've had some bad experiences with your dog, it is still possible to do a lot of things to make all this better for everybody. And so to me, it's a quality of life issue. Um, it just makes everybody, everybody, including your veterinarian and your groomer, much happier and less stressed in the in the big picture. Can you just talk a little bit about how the program is structured? How did you kind of set things up within the certificate program? Yeah, I think, well, the basic model is after the way that you earn a lot of titles in dog

sports is that we have different exercises. And then we have different levels of increasing difficulty and challenge. So I started out with 10 essential exercises, thinking about the 10 most common, most basic foundation kind of skills that dogs need. And I'll try to remember them, might even remember them in order, because we've been working with them for so long. So we have the chin rest, lying on your side, being restrained, wearing a muzzle, having your nails done, we're going to talk more about that one, I think. Having your mouth and teeth examined and your teeth brushed, taking medications, both liquid medications, orally and with injections, along with blood draws, and examining the eyes and examining the ears. So those to me were the 10 big things that are commonly going to be done either at home, or at the vet's office, or at the group. And then I wanted to divide those up and progress each exercise at three different levels of challenge. So we start out with the very basics. Then at level one, we go into adding more difficulty and complexity at level two. And then the same thing again, at level three, more complexity and difficulty, getting to the point where you could do a full exam with any of these things, or you could do the procedure without your dog being stressed or nervous, and with them actually cooperating. So that's one of the big aspects of this program is it's not just that you can do the thing to your dog, but that your dog's comfortable and cooperates throughout the process of this. So at every level, people will submit a video of their 10 exercises. And then those get evaluated. And we look at them as passing or not quite yet. And usually, there's only small things sometimes that make it a not yet that most people can fix pretty easily. But we're looking at the main parts of each exercise, make sure those are completed, and also looking at the fact that the dog is relatively comfortable while this is all going on. Now, in some cases, there are things that our dogs are never going to love. And we understand that too. I don't expect your dog to be thrilled with every single thing that you do to them. But if you think about it, sometimes tolerance is enough. If my dog tolerates this without excessive upset, and without emotional upset, then I'd be happy. So I always think back to the dentist. Do I love going to my dentist? No. Do I tolerate going to my dentist? Yeah. Do I bite my dentist? Not anymore. I believe I did when I was a child. I always told a story about that, which now I know why the dentist didn't seem to like me a whole lot.

So will you put up with this thing without fighting? Okay. And if you do, that means you're comfortable enough. So tolerance is what we're looking for. When we look at passing in the bigger picture of you pass this level with these exercises, we're looking at 70% or seven out of 10 exercises are passing. So that leaves some room for the fact that nobody's perfect. Things go wrong in little ways. And also that sometimes we're just not ready for one thing, but the majority of the things are trained up to a certain level. Or there's something that for some reason isn't appropriate for you and your dog to do together. And so you just don't, you just leave that one. You don't have to do that one or you do it, but you don't do it in the way that passes. So the 70% mark is a good passing point. I think it makes you not worry so much about perfection. And that's kind of the basic structure of what we're looking at here. I do just want to, since I helped you kind of put together the site, I had a chance to go through some of the materials a bit, just a little bit. So one thing I do want to kind of point out that I know is true that you didn't bring up specifically, but the certificate program differs from like the FENZ team titles in that you don't have to do the whole video as one take, right? You're doing clips. Do you want to talk about that at all? Yeah, that's a good point. Yes. So there are 10 exercises and you can video each exercise individually and then put them together. Or you can do two or three together and then, you know, string them along any way you want. Each exercise begins and ends and doesn't need to flow into the next. In the FENZ team titles, what happens between exercises also matters a lot. But that doesn't matter so much here. What I ask here is that I see the beginning, the actual exercise and the end of it. And then you can cut that. And most of the exercises are only going to take you about 30 seconds or so at the most to do. So it's not going to be real long. So we're talking about three to five minutes total for most of the submissions that we'll see. And yes, they can all be edited so that we just see the main parts of each exercise. Good point, Melissa. Excellent. As I mentioned, this is kind of in conjunction with the FENZ team titling program. So, you know, why the partnership? What? It seemed like a very natural fit. Good way to pool resources. I am responsible for the content and the basic development of it. That's my lane. And I need to stay in that lane. I know what I'm doing there and I'm comfortable developing material.

I'm really comfortable looking at the big picture and also looking at the small pieces and putting all that together. And so that's, I think, my strength in what I bring to the project and the vision for kind of what this could be. But FDSA already has the team titling program in place. And I was involved in a small way in helping develop some of the content there. I think it's been about four years or so now since we did that. Time is so off. Anyway, check out the team title program. I think it's FENZeteamTitles.com. Check that out because that's a really interesting and good approach to general training. So we knew that was already established and has been running for a while and works pretty smoothly. So there wasn't really any reason for me to try to reinvent the wheel and do everything from scratch when I wanted to start this cooperative care certificate type of program. Technology is not my strength. I'm not good. You know this, Melissa, from working together for a while now. But I know what I'm not good at. I know what I don't know and what I should let other people do. And since other people already at FDSA had all this under control, it just makes a lot of sense to partner with them. And Denise and I have worked together for over seven years now. We wrote four books together. You know, we've done a lot of good work at FDSA together. We have the same philosophy and training, the same basic approach to it. So I knew that this would be a very smooth kind of a partnership to have. And it has turned out to work very, very well. I do my part and then somebody else does all the things that I don't understand. And then somehow magic happens and we're going to have this program that comes together. So it works for the benefit of everybody that we're working together this way. So I'd love to kind of switch gears a little bit here and talk about some of the tools of the trade for a moment. I know there are specific tools that you recommend. Can you talk a bit about kind of what you recommend and why? For example, I know folks ask all the time on Facebook for like muzzle and nail grinder recommendations. Oh, yeah. People are always asking for specific recommendations for tools. And I feel very strongly about my tools. Once you find something that really works well, you want to share that with everybody because cheap tools do a poor job. There's no question in my mind that you can make it harder, easier. And I understand that people like to save money, which is usually the first concern. How expensive are these things going to be?

But I think in the bigger picture, you end up saving money because you're going to end up upgrading anyway. You're going to buy the cheaper tools, find out why and how they don't work like you thought they would. And then you're going to end up going out and buying more expensive ones. So start with the good stuff if you can. And I understand sometimes you just can't. You'd have to take what you can get. But if you can. And we did put together a page. You put together a page on the website that we're going to talk about that have my recommendations for a lot of tools and the links to finding those. But I think that the two you mentioned for nails, nail clippers, nail grinders, there's a world of difference between cheap stuff and really good quality stuff. So that's where I say don't be cheap. Though the clippers I like, they are cheap. They don't cost a lot. But I replace them regularly because they need to be sharp all the time. If you have dull clippers, you're just crushing your dog's nails. And they're not going to like that. So keeping them sharp and getting good quality grinders so that you get the job done faster. And the faster you get it done, the more pleasant it is for everybody. In terms of muzzles, the other thing that you mentioned, those are so individual to the dog and to the purpose. And so each situation, it's hard to give recommendations other than I can talk about general brands, which I do, and say these brands are relatively reasonably priced and they seem to work relatively well. There are always new things coming out on the market. And I can't know every brand and every type. But I usually say a good quality basket muzzle is going to be something that's going to pay off over and over. And yes, you can get very, very expensive ones. There are custom made muzzles. And sometimes people use those. If you're going to be using them a lot and you're always going to be wearing them a lot, I'd say go for the custom made. Otherwise, there are probably things that you can find off the rack that will work well for the majority of what you want to do with your cooperative care work and training. So to dive into the muzzle piece a little bit more, you know, when you're fitting a muzzle, what are you looking for? The muzzle training is one of our exercises. And I think it's a really important one. I think I don't care who your dog is or how big or small your dog is. I think your dog should learn to comfortably wear a muzzle. Everybody needs that. So what I always look for is that it's going to be comfortable.

It's going to be large enough so that the dog can open their mouth and pant naturally and easily while wearing it. And that you can give treats in it. I like to be able to give treats while my dog is wearing the muzzle. So I like it to have large enough openings and holes that you can do that. And some people actually cut a little extra opening in the front so that they can more easily give treats. When I think about getting and fitting a muzzle, I think a lot about buying a bra. So talking to the women in which I know is the majority of our audience. So if I say I want a comfortable bra, that sort of sounds like an oxymoron. But at the same time, we know that the bra that's comfortable for me may not be the bra that's comfortable for you. We know that size matters, style matters, fit matters. Your structure matters. And so it's really individual. But we also know that if it's not comfortable, it's endlessly unpleasant. And we will never forget that we're wearing it for a second. So the same thing is true for muzzles. We want to get to the point where the dog doesn't really even realize they're wearing it anymore because it's comfortable enough. And I can't tell you exactly what that is for your dog because, again, every dog is different, especially in muzzle shape and size. And so you're going to have to probably do some experimenting. But again, my big rule is dog has to be able to open their mouth so that they can pant. When dogs are stressed, they pant even more. And there is a huge danger of overheating if they can't pant to cool down. And so that's one of the things we want to make sure happens. Also, what I want to make sure happens is basically my dog wants to put that muzzle on, that we've done so much training and we've made it such a valuable thing that if I hold the muzzle out, my dog is ramming their face into it because it always pays off well. And I want to have hundreds and hundreds of good experiences with the muzzle. For every time they actually need the muzzle at the vet or groomer. And even if they don't actually need it, I still use it for practice because you never know when they might actually need it. So I like to think of making muzzle wearing like bra wearing a non-issue. It's just another one of those weird things that we do. And so it's not a big deal at some point in time. But yeah, the right fit is everything for them. Thinking about kind of the exercises in the program. You know, what exercise do you kind of anticipate students having the most trouble with? And, you know, why? I can tell you that. I don't think there's any question.

And I think most people can answer this question. It's going to be nails. By far. Doing nails seems to be the exercise where all of our lack of preparation and training and all of our past inappropriate or incorrect handling comes comes out clearly and fully. Nails need to be done. Dogs have nails. Very few dogs can get by without having their nails done and grind them down naturally. So it's got to be done. And by the time most people realize it, then it's becoming an emergency and they're getting very stressed about it. And so at that point, rather than trying to train for it, they just try to do it. Let's just get this done. And so typically using restraint that the dog may not be used to. And that's another one of our exercises. I want my dogs to think restraint is, again, just another one of those weird things people do to me sometimes. But if restraint is threatening or scary, and then I'm grabbing my dog's foot and trying to cut nails on top of that, it's just a really, really perfect storm of bad things happening that my dog is not going to forget for a long, long, long time, if ever. So if I'm restraining, I haven't prepared them for it. I feel stressed and pressured to get it done. And then my dogs bite me on it. Now we've got this huge conflict that's developed. And this is where a lot of people end up. I think that people want to start at the end with nails. They want to cut the nails. And I get that. That's the goal, though. That's not where we start. And if we try to start there, we are doomed to failure. There are lots and lots of steps that will get us to that point. But we need to go back. And my rule in training, in all training, not just in cutting nails, but in all training is you have to go back to the point where your dog is comfortable and successful. That's your starting point. And then you start working on adding challenge and making it more difficult from there. But if I don't go back far enough, my dog is always going to be uncomfortable with what I'm doing. And they're always going to feel defensive about what I'm doing with their legs and feet. And so it's easy to get into that. So we go back in the class that I teach at FDSA, all about nails. We go back to handling legs. We start with legs and handling legs and then handling feet. And then we move to holding feet, putting some pressure when we're holding. The way that we would strain the foot, we practice that. Isolating nails, tapping on nails. And then completely separately from all of that work, we're introducing them to the clipper or the grinder or both.

And getting them used to having those tools being moved towards them and touching them and tapping on their foot with the clippers. And we move through hundreds of small steps, literally hundreds of small steps. Now, this might all seem like a lot of work, but it is what it is. That's what needs to be done. Every time you try to push ahead too quickly because you want to get something done, you end up with regression. And you end up further back in the process and with a dog that doesn't trust you because they're not comfortable with what you're doing. Every time we have to use force, we lose trust. And our goal is to build enough trust that we don't need to use force. And that's going to take some doing. So that idea that I'm just going to get this done. I just have to get this done. There will be consequences to that. Sometimes you do. I mean, sometimes there really is no choice and you have to get something done, but you have to then live with the consequence and go back and fix it. And I often think with nails in particular, well, I've just got to get these nails done and I'm going to have the dog restrained and I'm going to do them. So you won that battle. Okay. But now you've got a war that you are going to lose. You're never going to win the war if you approach it that way. We need to approach it that we are working together with the dog to get this process done rather than I'm fighting with the dog to get this process done. And I think we just see all of that come up very clearly with nails more than any of the other exercises. So that's why I say it's definitely the hardest one to do. So I was going to ask, you know, kind of how to talk us through how you teach that. But I think you've kind of given us the outline, right, about breaking it down and the pieces and the whatever else, right? Right. I think I sort of jumped right on into then what do you do in this process and how do you break it down? A couple more things I would say about it, though. As I said, there's many, many, many small steps that gets us there. And every time we get to a place where our dogs become resistant, my question is, how far back do I need to go to find the place where my dog is cooperating? And then we move forward from there. We go backwards a lot. Going backwards doesn't mean we failed. It means we're in the midst of a training program and it's going to take time. There's no way to speed it up. The training saying that my students probably are sick to death of hearing from me is be the turtle, right? Think of it as a turtle. This is not a race. You do not have to be the first one to get there.

You do not have a timeline that you have to win. By moving slowly and steadily, you'll actually get there sooner than if you try to rush separate parts. And then you end up having to go back even further because you've had some loss of trust and some regression. I just finished a six-week all about nails class. And by week six, some students are shortening nails. Not all students, but some students. It's a slow process. But if you, there's no other way that I know of. If there was a magic bullet for doing nails, believe me, I would share it. But there isn't. This is the way it needs to be done. This type of training is slow and steady, but it leads to success and it builds. Once you start to get some success, you build more and more success. So it's one of those things that's frustrating to people who really want to accomplish this. But taking a longer view of it, you really can be very successful with it. Kind of on that vein, you know, when working on cooperative care in general, are there any kind of more general tips to keep in mind? Anything folks tend to get wrong or any common mistakes or misconceptions? I think there are a couple of things that I see regularly that I'm constantly kind of preaching about and talking about. No, that's not quite the purpose or what we're doing here. And the first of those is in our approach, in our training approach to cooperative care work. My main goal is for the dogs to be still and to accept whatever we do to them. I don't want them to do anything. I want the dog to do anything. I want the dog to relax and hold still. That's all I want from them. And this is very different from normally when we think of training. We think of teaching our dogs to do things, to perform behaviors, to offer behaviors. That's not what we want at all here. That's the very opposite of what I want. I just want you to chill. Stay there and let me do this weird stuff to you. And my dogs by now are pretty used to me doing weird stuff to them. And it's just another thing in the day. But when you first start, your dog might be very puzzled about what the heck it is that you're doing. First of all, lots of dogs never learn how to hold still. They don't understand stillness and they don't understand calmness, especially in a training session. We have, I think, sometimes gone too far in the let dogs off for lots of behaviors kind of thing so that every time we start to train, they think it's a shaping session. And this is different with cooperative care. So I start with a lot of foundation zen type exercises that are teaching dogs to be still

and that that pays off for them and that if you're calm and you just wait, good things are coming to you. So we work on those as a foundation first before I ever get to any of the actual procedures. Then, let's see, let me give you an example of the difference here. So I want to do my dog's nails. Lots of people, when they show me what they've done so far, what they've done is taught their dog to give them their foot. So the dog offers the foot. That's operant training. That's operant conditioning. My dog is actively doing something. And that's fine, but that's not enough for what we're doing here with cooperative care. What I want is for my dog to let me take his foot and be very calm and relaxed about it and passive about it and let me do whatever I want to his foot. That's a very different approach. That's a respondent behavior. And that comes out of classical conditioning. So we're working on a different type of learning for a lot of our cooperative care work. And people aren't as comfortable or familiar with classical conditioning. So that takes some getting used to. It's a different mindset of how we're approaching it. The second thing that I see and that I think about a lot in this kind of work is the focus on being able to do something, getting the procedure done or getting the job done without paying enough attention to how the dog feels about the process. So the fact that you say to me, I can cut my dog's nails, doesn't tell me anything about how the dog feels about getting his nails done. And that's a huge thing. That's a massive thing because that predicts what this experience is going to be like the next time. If the dog isn't comfortable with it, you're going to have more of a fight the next time and more of a fight the time after that until the point where you can't do it at all. So just because you can do something, that doesn't mean you have successfully conditioned your dog to cooperate with you in the process. And so those are two very different things. We're thinking about that, the internal state of the dog and the emotional picture, as well as the behavior, as well as what we can actually do and get done. So we also spend a lot of time here talking about our dog's body language and trying to read each individual dog's body language. We call them tells, as in gambling, I can tell what you're thinking. And some dogs are really subtle about it. It's extremely hard to tell what they're thinking or how they're feeling. They're kind of, you know, kind of stone-faced about it. Other dogs are very obvious and they're very clear.

So for one dog biting you, trying to bite you, that's a clear obvious cue. They're not comfortable. I can work with that. Another dog, it might be flicking an ear slightly or kind of the eyes going off to the side. So we have to learn how to read every dog as an individual and know what that tell is. And it tells us we need to back off. We're pushing too hard. We're pushing our dogs into emotional territory. It's going to be dangerous and it's not going to help with the process. So being sensitive to that kind of very subtle communication is something that I think is important and much overlooked in a lot of training. The communication goes both ways. It's not just me communicating with my dog what I want. I also then need to take my dog's feedback. I need to look at what my dog is telling me with their body language. And I need to then adjust my approach as we go on forward. And I think that's a whole skill set that's pretty sophisticated for trainers. And it takes a little time to develop. And it's different with every dog because every dog is different. Can you give listeners kind of a sneak behind the scenes on kind of what went into creating the program, how things kind of came together? I can. I can do that. Except can I tell you exactly why I thought this would be a good idea in the beginning? No. I always think things are a really good idea when all the work, you know, is way out in the future in some hypothetical way. But I will say that, you know, once the idea was formed and it sat in my brain for a little while, and even though I am the main developer of the content, I would say I didn't do it by myself. A lot of people are involved in developing a program like this. And first of all, it would be my students because I can see what they need and where people in general have weaknesses and challenges with this kind of training. So I always have that going on in the back of my head that that's something I might be able to help people with by offering them more information, you know, what are the things, what are their weak points where they're stuck? And then I ask people directly, you know, if I was going to do something like this, what would you want to be involved? What would you want to see? So I have a Facebook group called Cooperative Care with Deb Jones. And I ask, we're going on to 4,000 people in that group now. It's getting pretty good size. So I ask people, what kinds of exercises would you think are the most important ones? And they were basically what I thought they would be. But it was good to know. It's good to ask in case I was forgetting something.

So once I have those 10 exercises in mind, then there's a long process of writing out the details for each exercise at each level. Being able to visualize and to say it in words so that people all understand exactly what you're thinking. That's a lot. You know, I have to make sure that there's so much clarity in it. And sometimes there is, sometimes there isn't. You find out when you ask people to read over your stuff whether or not it says what you think it says. So there's this big writing process. But that's the part I like to do, too, because I'm a writer. So I enjoy the writing part of it a lot. And then I was also thinking not only of the 10 exercises, but of the three levels of each exercise. So how do I move to the next level of challenge in a reasonable way that makes the skill better, that's leading towards being able to do this thing in the real world without it being too hard or too easy? And so I spent a lot of time trying to get that down and get those progressions for each exercise written out at each level. So it's not too big of a leap, but there's still challenge being added all the time. In that early stage of putting these things together, I worked with Denise Venzi and Terry Martin a lot and throwing ideas back and forth and talking about what made sense to put in where it didn't make sense. So they helped me to develop things there. Then, as you know, there's lots that goes on in terms of things like pictures to obtain, graphics to develop, putting together the website, which is you, not me. And the copy for the website, which was me mostly, though some of you too, that takes a lot of time and effort to put all that together and to organize that. So we had our back and forth on putting together the website. So I think I would say for me, the big part was once I had conceptualized what the exercises were, once I was clear on what the levels were going to be, that was the easiest part. After that, things started to get a little bit fuzzier for me because it got into the technical aspects. So there was you and other staff at FDSA and other people involved who brought in their specialties in terms of things like graphics. Again, I know what I don't know and I know what I'm not good at doing and I know when to let other people who understand do their part. So I was happy to have people come in with their expertise and put it into the project. Then, this is long term, trainers who are in my Cooperative Care Facebook group, I asked if people would be willing to help by making videos of each exercise as I describe it at each level.

And I wanted to get demos for the website. I wanted to get very clear visual demonstrations as well as the written descriptions so that when somebody looks at this and tries to decide what to do, it'll be clear to them. Oh, this is what this exercise is. It says it in words here. Oh, and here's a couple of videos that show people, different people and dogs doing it. So I asked people from the Cooperative Care Facebook group who are interested in this to help me do it and I got a lot of great help on that. So for each exercise at each level, I got two to three demo videos and then I got passing full level videos for the three levels. And that took a while. That took me actually a couple of months to pull together and organize. Everything seems like it's going to be simple when you start doing it. And then the process becomes very complex. There was a lot of downloading, uploading, shifting things around to get just those videos on. But I think they'll add a ton of clear information to the website. I think they were important. And people were wonderful about doing them. And then redoing them when I said, oh, this is great, but your arm's in the way here. Or I need you to turn slightly to the left. Or I can't see your dog's ear or whatever the case was. So people were really helpful with that. And they don't know it yet, but they're going to be helping us soon to do the final site testing and make sure that everything works the way it should for actually submitting your videos to be judged. So when I was trying to think back about how long this project has been going on, I can't remember. There may be a little bit of amnesia involved in this whole process. But I think it's maybe been about a year. I don't know. More or less, I think. I don't even know because things drag out now and again. And you work on it really intensely for a few weeks. And then you don't do it at all for a few weeks. And so it comes back and forth. But it's definitely been a labor of love. Every step takes a lot of time and effort. And now we wait. Once we get it out there in the world, we wait and see if people actually use it after all that. And I know you mentioned the testing piece, but we are recording this just for listeners' purposes early. So the program will be tested and launched when you guys are listening to this. Just to kind of clarify a little bit. But Deb and I are recording it a few weeks before our launch date here. I guess I'm still thinking in the present when we need to be thinking in the future. I know I mentioned the book at the beginning, kind of in the intro.

But kind of what other options or what options are there that are available for folks who are interested in doing the program but maybe don't know how to train for the exercises? Okay. There's actually, I think that I have a lot that can be helpful for people. I really try to give away lots of free training information. And I'll talk about all the free stuff first. Because I do try to offer plenty of help to people. So the free options are my Facebook group that I mentioned before, Cooperative Care with Deb Jones. All you have to do is answer the screening questions, and I'm happy to put you in that group. It's really helpful. There are lots of good trainers there. It's very supportive. We have lots of veterinary professionals in that group. And it's growing pretty rapidly. So that's a great place to come, to get ideas and to do some brainstorming and do some troubleshooting. There's also, I also have a YouTube channel of the same name, Cooperative Care with Deb Jones, that I'm putting videos on all the time. So you can search that channel for topics that are important to you, like you might be looking for teeth. So you can search for that. Also, I write blog posts every week through my website, which is Canine in Focus. And lots of my blog posts address cooperative care type issues. And they often have videos in them as well. So there's usually plenty if you go searching through there that you can find. So those are the free things, the Facebook page, the blog posts, the YouTube channel. The book that you mentioned, Cooperative Care, Seven Steps to Stress-Free Husbandry, is available on Amazon. It's both as a soft cover and as an e-book. And I think it's just a good general overall, kind of get an overall organizational view of how do I even approach this topic? And then break it down. So you can just do this, then do this, then do that. I'm a very linear thinker. And a lot of people seem to appreciate that approach, that just tell me what to do next. Just give me a list in the order. And so that's what the book is about. I teach two classes at Fensi Dog Sports Academy specific to cooperative care, the general cooperative care class. That is a little bit of everything. It's kind of a survey of all of the different topics. And we touch on all of them a bit, but not really deeply because you can't do that. If you're going for breadth, you can't get depth. And then I also teach in all about nails class every so often. That is very intense about getting to the point where we can get those nails done.

In addition to those at FDSA, I also do occasional workshops and webinars on cooperative care type topics. Like I did one not too long ago about consent at the vet's office. I've done one on teeth. So whenever a topic comes up, I have one in mind now in the back of my head for my next webinar workshop that I'm thinking about. So whenever a topic comes up, I try to do two or three of those a year. And then the last thing I think to mention here, the last thing is the video series that I just finished on Vimeo. It has 10 short, about 15 to 20 minute videos each on the 10 exercises in the program. So it works through the exercises in order, gives you the basics for what's expected in the test itself, as well as how to start working to train those behaviors. So there's 10 of those. And then there's also a free Zen Work Foundation video. I mentioned the Zen Work earlier. And I think it's so important that I'm giving that one away for free because do that first, whether you do anything else or not. You'll never be sorry if you do some Zen work to start out. So that video series just came out and is available now as well. So I think there's plenty of things for people to use to help them get started on this process. Do you want to mention the price point of those videos since you were ridiculously reasonable? I try to be. I do try to be reasonable on things because I do want to share information. So, yeah, I know you thought I was probably a little cheap, but $5.99 each. So $5.99 each or you can get the whole set of 10 for $49.99 along with the free video that comes with it. So and it ended up to be just over three hours altogether. So for just over three hours of video instruction for I think $49.99 is a pretty decent price point for that. And I hope people take advantage of it because, again, I think it's it's if you get somebody who can help structure your steps for you and get you started down the right path. And that's what I try to do with these videos is get you going in the right direction. Hopefully that is going to be helpful to people. So big, big question time now. Right. So where should people actually go to find out more about all this and look at the program and look at the rules? And OK, so the exciting part now, hopefully I've remembered this correctly because we talked about a lot of different names for the website. But I believe it's cooperative care certificate dot com. So it's www.cooperativecarecertificate.com. That's where you go. That's where the website is. Everything should be up and running. We have lots. There's lots of information, lots of things you can poke around.

There's resources. There's videos. There's all kinds of stuff that you can look at on there. There's lots of text that describes what we're doing and gives you further information. So go there. Take a look at it. Poke around a little bit. See what we've got for you. Yeah. All right. Last question here. Same one I always kind of end things with. So what's something that you, Deb, have learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training? OK. I thought about this a little. I didn't have to think about this very long, actually, because the most recent thing or the thing that I keep thinking about and coming back to is that training is a two-way street. That I'm communicating with my dog, yes, and I'm trying to get my dog to do things I want them to do or allow me to do things to them. But I also am getting feedback from them all the time. They're telling me by their responses how good of a trainer I am. They're telling me whether or not I'm being very successful. And I need to listen very closely to what my dogs are telling me. Because if I do that, we'll do well together. And I'll become an even better trainer. If I ignore what they're telling me and try to keep going anyway, I've done that and it never ends well. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Deb. This is great. Oh, thanks, Melissa. Thanks for having me. I've enjoyed it. Absolutely. And congrats on the new program. Oh, thank you. Thank you for your help with it, too. Yeah. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.