E207: 에이미, 낸시, 메간 - "(스포츠 독에게) 크기가 중요한가?"

the way to 21 inch tall border collie. And I mainly do agility with all of them at some point in their lives and, um, kind of throughout my entire agility career, I've trained and handled dogs smaller. Um, so I've kind of had to go with the agility course with all of them and find that there's a lot more in common than maybe people want to believe or think, especially if they've only had an experience with one or the other. There's a lot of, I don't know, myths about handling a small dog versus a large dog. And I, I don't find that to be my experience as a huge difference. Is there more you want to know about my dogs? I totally will want to know more about your dogs, but, um, Nancy, do you want to just say hi and share who your kids are? Hello everyone. Um, yeah, I have, um, always had border collies pretty much, um, doing dog sports, um, and they're 20, 20 inches approximately. Right now I have Lever, um, he's about 20 and a half and Pose is his daughter. She's 20. Um, I, in the past have handled and trained, uh, Papillon through masters. I did not own that dog. Um, but, um, it was a student's, um, student of mine in obedience and she had had an injury. So I took, I trained the dog for her. So that was my first experience with a small dog. He was not my dog. So, um, even though he looked like he was my dog, when I ran him, um, there were things about him that, um, I would have changed if he was my dog. And right now, um, I sort of found myself with, uh, a Chihuahua poodle mix, um, as, uh, that's differ. She's, um, she's very small. She's only about seven and a half pounds and maybe 11 and a half inches. Um, I got her during the pandemic as a project, um, for rescue. And I figured I would, I was developing a class and I thought I would do all the videos with her, um, and being small, it was kind of a new thing and kind of fun. And I just fell in love with her. Um, so she's here to stay. Um, and my dogs do, um, mostly agility. I do, I do kind of dabble in obedience with all of them. Um, and my Border Collies do herding as well. Um, and I'm kind of, I'm on the same, um, I agree with Megan that my experience with the smalls versus the bigs in terms of handling, my handling has not changed at all. Um, with, with differ being my dog, it might've been a slightly different, um, with the dog. I didn't own, but differ my handling with her is very similar to the big dogs. So I could go on, but we'll, we'll talk about that later. Yeah. Yeah. So let's go ahead and get into it. So my first question is going to be, does size matter? How does it influence your training?

So do you want to kind of pick up where you left off there, Nancy? Um, I don't think size matters in terms of any of the basic skills. Um, at least that's been my experience with the study of one. Um, I, well, I pretty much only have differ, um, you know, because she's, she's here. Um, she's my dog. Um, but I'll have to say that the training required, you know, on some of the small dogs, it's going to be slightly modified because of the size, but I just find that it's more an issue in terms of training. Um, it's more an issue with the temperament of the dog rather than the size. Cause if the dog is super confident, um, you're going to do things slightly different. If the dog is a little bit more stressy or soft, you're gonna also do, you know, you're gonna train a little bit different. And I have to say, you know, um, my border collies, border collies in general are super soft and sensitive dogs. I actually prefer that. Um, they really want to please that. So it makes my job a little easier. Um, differ is not, she's a super confident dog. She's not very sensitive. So, you know, I do things slightly different with her, but that's not based on size. It's based on her temperament. Interesting. Megan. No, it doesn't really matter. I would say that, uh, the things that size does influence about my training is with a larger dog in terms of timing of your cues on the agility course, you're going to have less time in between obstacles. So you don't have as much room for error. I would say when you're running a really long strided dog, whereas with a small dog, you might have a little bit more time. You don't necessarily want to use that extra time for error, but you do have it. So some, the perception may be that it's easier to run a small dog because you have a little bit more time between the obstacles. But the flip side of that is that it may be easier to teach a larger dog to stay committed to obstacles because they don't have as long in between them to change their mind. And with a small dog, they do have more time in between obstacles to break commitment and things like that. So the, the ideas and the concepts that I think about as a handler and trainer, as I'm working with these dogs are the same, but some things might be slightly more or less challenging depending on the size of the dog. But I still want the same amount of commitment from my small dogs as I do my large dogs. I don't hold them to different standards. I don't, I, I train everything in the same way, but the, the challenges I might, that might come up might be different depending on their size. Amy?

I think there are ways in which it does matter. And so since, um, both Megan and Nancy kind of covered in a lot of ways, the, the things that don't matter, the things that are that, you know, the standards we should hold to and all of that. Um, I'll say that the, the parts for me, the parts I have, I feel like I have to modify or the parts of me that change with the smalls have to do with, um, a little bit about what their own perceptions are, what they see of the world that is, that is different than, than the bigs, what, you know, what lines they can see, what ops, you know, what, what in the environment is calling more of their attention than the bigs. And also just that the, the world is so much bigger for them and some things can be so much more overwhelming for them and that you might have to, and I realize that's, that's temperament because it can be overwhelming to a large dog too, but you might have to change how you do things with them, um, to make sure they feel essentially the same way you're trying to have your bigs feel. So if you're, you know, if you're tugging with them, if you're trying to celebrate something with them, if you're trying to move with them, um, realizing that your largeness and the, maybe the bigness of your personality or the bigness of your celebration might be, might need to be scaled down to be the same for them that, um, that you would want them to be for, for, for the bigs. And so, um, I think in a lot of ways, a small might, I mean, every dog should force us, to train the dog in front of us, but a small might bring that lesson home because when you, you know, there might not be a lot of wiggle room there. If you don't train that dog who's in front of you, who's saying, I would really party with you, but your tugs are really hard or you're really being so much bigger, um, than I am because you are also so much bigger than I am. Um, you can, you can dig yourself a hole of turning them off or, or keeping them kind of away from your body more because your body is being so big. Uh, so I find that being sensitive to what they're saying early can be, can be really important because it's so easy to be overwhelming to bigs and, and I mean, sorry to smalls. And sometimes the smalls won't quite tell, I'm not, you won't see it maybe at first because they're compensating for that. But then after a while they're like, wow, you're just, you need to tone it down a bit. So I find that, and, and maybe it's just me, but I've got to really watch how big I'm being when I'm, when I'm working with a small and how much space they feel they do or don't

need from my, either my personal body or from obstacles or from, you know, features of the environment. Um, and also, you know, small dogs, and we didn't really touch on this yet. I'm sure we all will, but small dogs come with the added problem of you. If you train with a lot of food, um, you have to be pretty judicious because, um, you don't quite have the same buffer, um, that you have with the bigs, right guys? You can't, you know, you, you often can't just keep going. You have to think about, I have calories that I really have to think about throughout the day. And I've got to be very smart about this. You know, um, if you've got smalls who are really great with toys, it's probably not the same issue. Right. But, but if you're working with food, it's something you're going to be thinking about for sure. That's funny. I, uh, went to hand my, uh, one of my training buddies, dogs, a cookie. And she's like, no, can you break that in half? She has papillons. I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I thought that was tiny. I guess not. Right. Right. I'm going to break it again. I'm going to break it again. I want four reps out of that. I want six reps out of that. Yeah, for sure. So correct me if I'm wrong guys, did everybody start with medium to large dogs and then go smaller? Not exactly. No. Okay. It's relative, I suppose, because I got my first agility dog that was my own when I was seven and he was an 18 inch tall Sheltie. So relative to me, he was large. So, but I think I've, I've gone back and forth quite a lot in the last couple of decades. So it was Sheltie. Was it straight from Sheltie to Border Collie for you or? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I had the three Shelties of my own. I might've been handling for other people, other dogs. So that could be messing with my recollection of how many dogs I've owned. Um, so Shelties, Border Collies, Parson Russell Terrier, Border Collie. I, I've always had kind of a mix. Big and small. Yeah. Um, I had big for first. So Border Collies have had 10 of them. Well, not all in agility, but I started in an obedience. Um, I never really thought I was going to have a small dog. Um, but, um, and I don't think that this is the beginning of small dogs for me. I liked the mix. I really like, it's just fun to be challenged and to do different things and think about things differently. Um, so I don't really consider this, um, um, me going to small dogs. Um, I'm always going to have my Border Collies. I, you know, I really love the breed, which is. I'm just weird. I'm weird like them. But, um, but the small dogs, I, you know, I, after having differ and, you know, I've,

I'm pretty sure I'm going to always have one because it's, it's not inconvenient. Um, so yeah, I don't think I've gone to small dogs, but I really like the mix. I feel like I like the smalls. Um, I feel like I'm probably going, I'm guessing smaller, you know, small on the smaller end of the spectrum, uh, especially as I age. And, and I also think that, and I did go big, big to smalls. Um, and I, you know, we, we, we didn't really define it. Right. Like what, you know, what is small and obviously, you know, is, you know, Sheltie would be small for an adult now a lot, but not small for a seven-year-old Megan. And, and, um, like actually a seven-year-old Megan, especially a seven-year-old Megan. Um, but like, and, and, and a big, and a big Sheltie. Right. But the, um, you know, everything being relative, it's like, I, I think possibly caper, my small could be bigger than Megan's smalls. I mean, she, maybe she's 14 inches. She can be bigger than Megan's smalls, but they're not the same kind of small dog. I would, I would really not consider, I mean, not truly splitting hairs, but I don't tend to think of Jack Russell's as quite the small dog, even though they are physically small and are going to have some of the, the same adjustment things you might, you might make for, for a dog who is say 13 or 14 inches tall. But the mentality that can come with a more Chihuahua based or more toy dog based small dog might make shifts different than, than the ones who are, who are coming in with a bigger dog mentality. And I realized we're not really discussing what that is because it's, it's a moving target. It's hard to pin down what is a small dog mentality. Right. But I do think that a Chihuahua type or a, or a toy dog bred dog, toy dog category dog will be different from your, your Jack Russell style dog. So, um, I totally agree. Right. Like the terriers, they don't get full. Like you were talking about. Right. Farthing out their treats that doesn't exist here. He eats two pounds a day. Maybe. I don't know. He did. Right. Well, and not even so much, just, just that they won't eat as much, but more like if, you know, I've got to think about calorie load on a seven pound dog. I got to think about calorie load on a five pound dog. Right. I don't have that many. The more you have to think about it. Right. And if they're running around and terrier style and eating like a large dog, you, it's like, it's almost like you feel like you're not compensating at all. Hey, your height is a little lower, but whatever. You're still the same kind of dog. Right.

Whereas, you know, with some of the little toys you're thinking about, can you get on this teeter? Cause are you afraid of this really large object? Or, you know, are you thinking about my feet shuffling so close next to you? Cause you are toy dog in mentality. And I'm not even quite sure what I mean by that, but you guys probably know what I mean. Right. The toy dog mentality. Yeah. Yeah. We see the really tiny dogs not want to come close to the handler's feet. Right. And for either because they have been stepped on or accidentally or, or fear of being stepped on. So that, that for sure matters. Right. You can be the size of the handler's shoe. Right. Right. And it goes back to what Nancy was saying earlier about, um, it kind of being about the dog's personality more than it's about the size in that case. Is that kind of what we're all getting at? Kind of. Yeah. I think so. I mean, yeah, it's personality because anybody can, any dog can kind of be that can, can be a little shy of those kinds of things. But, um, we're going to see those, those, those trends happen more in the smalls. And I think if you're not ready for that, if you've always had bigs and then you get your first small and they're not just a small version of your big dog, but they are now a little different because of the breed they brought in, you know, because of, you know, maybe just not just their height, but the fact that they're in the toy category and maybe weren't bred for sport. Maybe, you know, you're not talking about a sport, but you're talking about living with a smaller dog. And, um, there, there are some handler shifts you, you sometimes have to make with a dog who thinks that they're more fragile in the world than a dog who's 45 pounds. They often just don't think that, that the world is that unsafe for them. They might mentally, but physically they're not necessarily as scared of that, but a seven pound dog, you know, is going to think twice about, about putting their feet up, you know, maybe on an X-pan because it shifts. And so they got to think about that kind of stuff. So it comes up. Is there anything that kind of surprised you guys the first time you shifted from big to smaller in Megan's case, even going the other direction? Amy, do you want to start this one? I think I might've come in with more of a bias that I hadn't necessarily really articulated about what, um, what you can do with them. I think I might have kind of subconsciously assumed there was more adjusting that needed doing only to come to realize that, no, you, you hold exactly the same standard for behavior. You can get all the same stuff.

They are the same dog. And I think maybe just in doing that, I realized I had some, some subconscious, you know, ideas about it because I would have said, you know, upfront, no, no, it's all the same. But then when you're really working with them, I found I'm making these compensations. I didn't really need to make, you can do all the things and you should be expected to do all the things. Um, so it was kind of, that was sort of nice. I like training them as if they're big dogs. Um, but I, I really found that I loved things in, in management. I like that I can pick up the dog and change their, their picture. I really like that. I do. I like that, that I can avoid certain problems by managing them differently than I have to manage a large dog. I like that, um, that they can see so much of, of a house as a great obstacle course. There's so much you can do inside a house with a small dog because you have so much more real estate than with my 45 pound dogs. There's only so much running around in the house. I want to see happen. But I, I can use a lot of stuff in my house for a lot of fun for a small. And that kind of helps the rainy days. It helps the inconvenient days. It helps, you know, the logistics of a small can, can, can, I can kind of be like a guilty pleasure in a way, you know, you're like, Oh, I can use kind of everything in here and you're going to get tired. That's kind of convenient for me right now. So it's kind of a, you know, a lighthearted answer, but, but I find that it impacts my, my day a little bit more than when I have a whole pack of really large dogs. They've got to get out to really big places to make that work. And it changes, you know, some of your logistics, right? Don't you guys feel a little bit of that? At least Nancy would differ. She's so small, right? Yeah, absolutely. I totally agree with Amy on the indoors being so much, I didn't realize how, how much an advantage it is to have a, a small dog in the house. She just gets a lot more exercise than my, my big dogs. Um, especially, you know, I live in Minnesota. So, um, right now is probably the worst time of year. The big dogs don't really get outside and she's really not, um, she doesn't really want to go out anyway. Um, so indoors it is, it's totally like, uh, you know, it's totally like an obstacle course for her. Um, she can run around with a cat and I don't worry about her slamming into things. Um, you know, it's pretty, pretty nice. One of the things I'll, I'll go back to, um, you know, what surprised me about a small dog is I, I had no idea how crazy difficult it was for those, you know, to, to deal with the

front feet, front feet on the ground. It's just, I don't worry about that with the big dogs, but like, it's like any training I have to do, especially if it's like very precise, those front feet, like pivots. Um, holy cow, you know, so anyway, that, that I had no clue on, um, you know, how difficult that was. So that's always part of my training right now is, you know, that considering that, um, the other thing is I totally understand now, um, you know, with small dogs is it, you can get kind of lazy about, um, avoiding some training, you know, in terms of just making it really easy. Like Amy was talking about management, you just pick the dog up. Um, and that's great. I love that aspect of it, but it can also get in the way of training. I think with the small dogs, especially we're indoors here, not outdoors a lot. Um, so, you know, it's very nice to be able to pick up a small dog and get through a crowded area. But on the other hand, it's also, I feel really strongly about, you know, the toys, small dogs is they also need to be on the ground to learn how to exist. And, and, um, you know, so setting that up so that they are on the ground, learning about their environment is really important. Walking, uh, walking on a loose leash instead of dragging you, it's much easier to pick those little guys up and just say, okay, we're not dealing with this, not train it. Um, so that was, you know, I work really hard on that. And it's probably the most frustrating thing for me is working on loose leash walking with the big dogs, but I do it because I have to. And with the littles, you don't have to, but I really tried hard to work that. Um, so that's another thing that sort of surprised me. Um, one other thing that I was surprised at is, um, and this is just a little bit different slant is I really thought that, um, and again, this is a study of one for me, um, because this is the first small dog I've lived with, but I was really surprised at how much easier it was for her to learn some of the big dog foundation skills. Some of the, um, I call it glue skills. Um, but you know, just the duration down the station work and, um, even commitment. I've been working really hard on commitment with her because I, you know, I think it's just much easier to get speed on a dog if the dog can commit and then you, you know, just get out of there in agility. Um, she is probably better than right now than the border collies. Um, you know, she's really got some good commitment and, and that came easy to her, which surprised me. And the same thing with lead outs and the start line at, you know, you, you see so many, um,

toy or small dog people struggle with that and that just, you know, you know, they're quick and, you know, they kind of slip away from you, but, um, that came pretty easy to her. So all of those things sort of surprised me. Do you think part of that was, um, I know you talked about personality earlier, just kind of a natural tendency towards a little less handler focus, or do you think it's, you know, kind of more attributable to her size? Um, which, which part? The, uh, the commitment. Oh, the commitment. I, she's small and, you know, she didn't start out that way, but you know, that, that became one of the things I, you know, that's something I work on all my dogs. And so I work just as hard with her as I work with my border collies to, you know, be able to send them and get out of there. So you don't have to babysit any of the obstacles. It's so important if you want to stay ahead. And I, I'm not one that likes to do rear crosses. Um, so, so I, I like to do the fronts and the blinds. And so it's really important for me to get out and get ahead. And so I worked just as hard with her, but it came very easy to her. And, you know, like she, she sees me pulling away as I've cued an obstacle and she continues to go, which, you know, I really love, but that was very easy for her. And it surprised me. What, what surprised you, Megan? Um, a little bit, uh, first living with them. Uh, I, Torch probably was the smallest puppy I've ever brought home. Uh, even Shrek, who's, I wouldn't consider him a small dog by any of the measures we discussed today. Like he's very big for a terrier. He's very big in personality. Um, but even when I brought him home as a puppy, he was already like 10 pounds, 11 pounds. He's that kind of massive dog. And that is Torch full grown. So Torch was only like five or six pounds when I brought him home. And just what surprised me was my anxiety about having him in my house with all of these other not small dogs. That's right. Like, oh, I had to be really careful. And he's not actually mine. So, um, but just really making sure that he was raised to not be suspicious of other dogs or having to be worried about other dogs trampling him or pushing him over or rolling him over, things like that. And so that was the biggest thing that surprised me. Like I, I kind of had an idea when I was asked to take him on, but when I actually got my hands on him, I was like, oh, you're small, you're tiny. Um, so, so that was the biggest thing. Uh, and now I, I see it all the time. And, and I wonder like how, how dynamics work when there's a really tiny dog in a, in a one or two or many other large dogs.

And yeah, so that, that I think about a lot now. I can definitely speak to that. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Because boy, I mean, my small is, she's not as she, I am always surprised at how big physically she is because she's very small in mentality and small in all the ways I have to feel like I have to protect her. She's slight boned and, you know, light bodied and fragile seeming. And, and there's like what you just said, Megan, there's this sense of like, I have to actually actively keep you safe. You know, like I have to, I have to think about it actively, whereas I didn't have to think that much about it for any other dog. And even with my whippet who I do think about keeping safe because of being light boned or no skin, you know, lacerations and whatever. But, um, but keeping this little one safe and thinking about the world from that perspective is, is kind of a, is a, is a real shift. And, and in this house, um, when I brought her here, she was, oh, six pounds, I think. Um, and I, you know, and I have a whippet. She's always been great with dogs. She doesn't do anything, but I respect that that could shift at any point. Right. And I have had to institute and maintain a lot of self-control around everybody's arousal and, you know, make sure that certain games are not played. Um, you know, with the, when only these two are here, you know, if I don't have a friend over or whatever, um, I was really careful about who had yard time when and how they felt, you know, not, not much arousal in the yard at the same time. Um, for at least the first year, they were not both out together. If they were not just going to go pee and come right back in, if there was going to be any play or if I thought there'd be squirrels and it wasn't because I saw anything happening. It was because my mantra is predict and prevent. I was not going to, I was, I was going to make sure I never had a problem with it. So there was a hundred percent, you know, rules around. If you're feeling really aroused, you guys are not going to socially interact because I just wanted to make sure there was never any room for mistake. And to this day, um, if, and it lasts to this day, because if, if I set aside time, like, okay, we're going to do some training, it's capers turn. I get the stuff out for her and I start interacting with caper immediately. My whip, it goes, well, where's my treat ball. And she goes and finds it. Even if she was, maybe I intended to have her be next on deck. She's like, nope, I know what to do. When you work the little, I busy myself with something else, no matter what she goes off

and does stuff because I over-trained the idea of if, if, because when I was training caper as a little, I was doing toy play and I was doing chasing, I was doing lots of stuff where she was running around a lot, like a little rabbit. And I wanted my whip to be very, very directly engaged with something else. And so, and so I think living with smalls and bigs, depending on how big of a difference you really have, um, and how much chasing you might be likely to have in your, in your big or just how much like pawing, like if there, if there's gonna be a lot of play bowing and that paw is coming on your six pound, you know, Iggy style dog, you're going to really, really think about it. So I did a lot of separation. Um, I don't know if that, if that comes up with the terriers, but certainly anything under 10 pounds is, is at risk, right. Of, of an injury. I, yeah, I had to, I mean, because Torch has actually made best friends with the oldest dogs. It's kind of the cutest thing ever, both the 12 year old or the 13 year old and the 12 year old, they both think Torch is the greatest thing on the planet, uh, which is really sweet, but smack is 40 pounds. And when I brought Torch home, he was like, I said, five or six pounds, like his head, like he could get his whole body inside smack mouth. So, and, and so even if it wasn't like you, like you said, the play that was allowed between the biggest and the smallest and the beginning was very soft, quiet. Everyone's in a down, uh, maybe a little bit of bitey phase. And then as he got bigger and bigger in personality as well, I can allow a little bit more, but it would be no fault of the large dog. If they just played in the wrong way and ended up hurting a smaller dog. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And they can do that just because their play styles are incompatible. And, you know, my whippet doesn't put her mouth on, on dogs, but she chases and wants to, wants to do all that rough and tumble. And I'm like, well, we now have a rule of, there will be never any chasing of this tiny dog ever under any circumstances. And the, the tightest behavior I've ever trained on her is calling off being interested in looking at what running behavior, the little one is doing because it, it just cannot happen. So it's off the table and you make a good point about playing from a down. I don't think a lot of people understand that you can really shape that. You can say all play will happen with the big lying on the ground and the little dancing around and doing whatever they want to do. You can, you can institute rules like that and actually shape play behavior.

People don't know that you can, but you can, if you're out there listening, you don't think it's possible. It's possible, right? I mean, you can do it. Yeah. A hundred percent. And that's kind of been Matt's rule from day one because he's, he really likes puppies, but he's big compared to almost all puppies. So he, day one, and he likes to be pausey and likes to use his mouth. So if you want to play with a puppy, you got to do it from a dad. And that pretty much lasts until the puppy starts trying to climb on his back. And at that point, they're no longer getting a puppy pass and the play time is over. All right. Does Differ play with the bigs, Nancy? Do you, do you have them? I do not let them play. Just, we have also, my husband has a toller. So, and he's much bigger than the Border Collies. I didn't mention that, but he's just not allowed to be with her because he's a very sweet boy, but he just doesn't understand, you know, and, and, you know, the, and Border Collies and herding dogs, basically, they don't really like to touch anyway when they play. So he does, and he just doesn't know his strength. So basically with the dogs, I just don't allow the play. I never have with it. I just try to stop it in the house anyway, because that's always for the bigs, for my Border Collies. I have had injuries happen in the house more than outdoors. So I have never allowed that. And, you know, just kind of when they're puppies, I let them play by themselves and run by themselves, but not together. So they, they totally understand that. And Differ tried to entice them to play, but they already know not to. So she wasn't reinforced for it. She plays with the cat and the cat is actually bigger than her. So when she came into this house, she was only four and a half, you know, she was like five pounds, four and a half, under five, under five pounds. So she's tiny. So I, yeah, safety is a big concern. And we have steps that a full height of steps downstairs to let them out. We have a rambler. So I have to be really careful, you know, and I really trained, you know, that so that Differ goes down and stops a few steps while the Border Collies go ahead. And that just prevents a lot of, because the Border Collies will just run over if I'm not careful. So, yeah, there's a bit of training there. And I agree with Megan that, and, and Amy, that, that was a bit of a surprise for me. I knew that it's an issue with bigger dogs in the house, but it does create a lot of anxiety in me because it, all it takes is one mistake and you've got an injury. Yeah. Yeah.

And with a little dog, it's more likely to be a more serious injury, right? Very serious. You can splat them into a psoas injury so easily, right? And then psoas is such a hard one to, to, you know, come back from. You don't want that. Would any of you say that one or the other, either your big dogs, your smaller dogs have been harder to train for any particular reason? Go for it, Amy. I think that because, because, because, because there's such personal examples, they're likely to be, you know, ends of one or whatever. That's why there's three of you here. Right. Right. Right. Right. So like, you know, personalities, personalities aside, if I think of it as, as the kinds of dogs they are, because, you know, whippets aren't always the easiest, you have to, you have to modify a decent amount. A thing that I really enjoy that comes a little more so far in my experience pre-installed in some of the smalls is that if you're talking about a toy dog, you, you might be engaging with a dog who doesn't have a long breed history of having some other job other than you. So, you know, if we're talking about a toy dog who was not bred to rat, you know, if we're talking about a toy dog who's not bred to guard the house or whatever, a lot of times the entire reason they were bred and chosen was because they doted on you or they liked you. They found you really relevant. And I, I find a lot of the smalls I work with and this, this one, my own in particular, just kind of has more of an orientation toward finding me more interesting, finding me more fascinating than some of the other things. It's not like she doesn't also love to chase other things or do other things or whatever, but she came out of the box with a lot more people are really relevant and what people are do are really relevant. And I like that I wasn't having to work against. I also want to circle those things up, or I also want to make sure I kill that, or I also want to make sure, you know, whatever boundaries are maintained. Other things that we've bred dogs to do is, is not a thing I had to kind of work with and work against to, to build more handler focus. She came out with like, people are great. And what you're doing is awesome. And tell me more about this thing that you're into. And that that's a real boon. So people out there who are thinking about whether they want to go smalls, it's not quite just the fact that some of these dogs are smaller in size, but that some of their lineage, some of their, the point of them was just to be with you and do stuff with you. And that can really kind of rocket your training into a different direction.

And you're not having to go against, you know, maybe rat killing or, or whatever it is. And I don't, I don't know. It's not the same thing as with a terrier because a terrier had a job, right? And it's not that you can't work with that, but a toy dog's job was to, you know, look at you and warm you and follow you around. And it's, it can be a little helpful in training. I really like it. That's a great point, Amy. It's a really good point. I mean, I was surprised by it at 12 weeks. She was just like, you are the most fascinating thing I've ever seen. And I'm like, that really helps me. I don't have to train focus there. And, you know, if I'm walking around the house and dogs are sleeping and don't find me interesting, you look for the, for the little, and she's like, are you about to do something cool? I mean, and I know that comes in some of the bigs too. For sure, for sure it comes in bigs, but it's just been nice not to have to work against conditioning or, I guess, sorry, against breed specific challenges. You know, they kind of came with, you know, that. So I don't know. I like it. I'm, I'm, I'm sold. Do you want to defend your terriers at all, Megan? I love terriers. You defend them, Megan. Defend them. Well, I don't need to defend that point. She's spot on. I will say, I will say, and it's, it's so difficult to really know because my most recent, you know, the last 10 years, it was Border Collie, Border Collie, Terrier, Terrier. But some things have come easier for the, the smalls. And I don't know if it's because they're small or if it's because there's the breed choices smarter or if I'm a better trainer. But as far as that initial, yeah, I'm fighting against their instinct and what they're bred to do in both the Border Collie and the carriers, really, right? When you're thinking about Border Collies, they're maybe being bred to move away from you more and not be so close in on the handlers. And then these terriers, they are not really coming out of the womb, seeking your eye contact. Right. Once you get it, I feel like it's so very intense. And they do it super hard. They're all in. And so, yeah, I don't know, I don't think it's necessarily a small versus big thing there as more of the breed that they are. But it was way easier getting eye contact from the terriers than it is with the Border Collie, for instance, in my experience. Do you want to weigh in, Nancy? What was the question again? Because we got a little meandering. I think I love the conversation, but it's like, okay, I forget what the, was it that the, what the small dogs have been easier or harder? Yeah.

So just kind of whether you found, you know, either your big dogs, your little dogs harder or easier, you know, has there been something that feels more difficult or, you know, significant? And training wise, right? Yeah. I mean, there's a lot, there's a lot of things like for the smaller dogs. I mean, in terms of training, because I think, you know, the living kind of together has been talked about quite a bit, but, um, you know, my, my, I've been training running contacts and boy, the, that is so much easier with the smaller dogs. That's really true. They're just taken right down. I mean, I thought, you know, going there, I can't tell you how many times I was going to quit with, you know, with the bigger dogs, but then all of a sudden it gets better. And so there's not that up and down so much with the small dogs. Also my fear with the big dogs on, um, you know, very fast teeter and dog walk entry is, you know, the, the smalls can get on that at such an angle and still be safe. So I don't have as much anxiety there as well. So that's another one that's much easier. Um, the other thing is like collection and, um, tight turns on jumps so much easier. Um, they, you know, and, and for what's harder is that, you know, they're very, also very efficient and they might just back jump too. So you, you gotta kind of teach them to go around the wing, you know, instead of just kind of, you know, pinging over the jumping back. Um, Megan already talked about this, but you know, the, the time, you know, how much time you have between obstacles is, is, is really different. Um, it's much, it's easier in one sense with the small dogs, um, you know, cause you do have time to save things. Not that you should be saving it. That's a handler thing, but you do have more time. But, um, I've found that, um, also, you know, you're, you're running a lot more, even if you train distance skills and commitment, you still, as a handler running more yardage with the small dog. I don't care how much, how much, um, training you do. That's gonna probably happen. Um, one thing for me, that's been really nice about having a small dog. And again, just focusing on the training piece is tunnels. Oh my God. I don't have to put a bazillion tunnel bags down on the tunnels. It's, you know, it's not, doesn't have to be weighted as, as much. So that helps me. And then, um, one of the thing that is super convenient with the little dogs is I can keep my training really clean, you know, whether it's, um, whether it's in a seminar or just training, you know, between reps, if I want to go from one point to another and redo, I can

just pick her up, you know, and with the, with the big dogs, you're not able to do that. Um, it's, it's not as convenient. So those are kind of, you know, the things that are easier in terms of training. I think the others have kind of covered the living with them aspect. I really like Amy's point about, you know, really always, um, and I agree. I hadn't really thought about that either is in terms of living or, you know, training them. You know, I agree completely that, um, the little dogs just watch you and have natural focus. I mean, at least that's the way it was would differ. She's, she wants, you know, I'm her world, you know, basically. And border collies are very good about that too, but they have other things, you know, movement will excite them and, um, you know, and, and that distracts them from me, um, with, with differ, that's just not a thing. You know, she's just totally focused on me, um, which is really, really, really cool. It's, it's really cool. And I think there's this sense of like how I conceive of it is like, there's a sense of it's self-reinforcing I'm self-reinforcing by my existence. And it's not as tightly tied to the fact that I could produce a cookie or might produce a ball. And I sometimes feel with the larger working dogs, it can be colored with nothing's all or nothing, but colored with the sense of, well, you might make fun happen outside. You might open a door. You might throw a ball. You might do a thing. And, and it's because of what reinforcement objects I might bring. And, and from there we train more focus and, and somehow with the, with a lot of these littles, there's a sense of, it's just self-reinforcing to be around you human. And, and, you know, I'll find her just laying on my lap, gazing at my face for no good reason. And I'm like, well, you're, you're already coming halfway to this training relationship. Um, and, and, you know, with some of my big, certainly with the whip it, but other bigs, if they're on off time in the yard, they find the yard fascinating. And when my little is on off time in the yard, if I'm, even if I'm just cleaning the yard or doing something really boring, she wants to see what that's about. And she finds that it just inherently more interesting. And I think people who are not people who are newish trainers or hobby trainers or pet, you know, coming from just, I just want to do some pet stuff and also some sporty stuff, having a dog who's already meeting you in the game of, well, I just kind of want to anyway. And I am not calculating exactly how clean every piece of your mechanics are, or whether

you have reinforced my, you know, whether you're going to go against what else I want to do. It, it, they're, they can be good beginner, not always, but good beginner dogs, even though you're making adjustments because they're, they're going to reinforce you for a little bit more easily than, than some of the ones who, who, who's, whose genetics you're working against to be able to, to do your sports. It's okay. You can say Shrek, you can call him by his name. I wasn't, oh, I wasn't even thinking of that, but honestly, you know, cause I come from this, like you guys, like, like you, Megan, I'm working against a whippets ideas. Right. Yeah. And she has many ideas of what she wants to do with her brain. And many of them do not include people do not include me. And so to the extent that she's able to do all the things she's able to do, it's because I make it worth her while I train her that these things are going to pay off. And these things are really interesting. And I never had to do any of that with my small, she's like, I food or not, I kind of like what we're doing. And I'm like, wow. And so food is a big old bonus and it, you know, it gets more from her, but, but with the whippet, it's always when she's done, when we're done, she's like, great. Now I would love to go deal with the environment. I want to go see what else has changed. And when I turned the, the, the chihuahua onto her free time, she's like, yeah, you know, okay. But are you going to do something with our free time? It's like, wow. It's, it's, it's really, um, it makes training have this extra ease to it so that I'm not having to always work quite so hard. So I know that's not everybody's story, but, but people shy away from some of the toy dogs because they're thinking, oh, they can't really do anything. I'm like, yeah, but they stare at you a lot and you're not, it's not because you have a tennis ball in your hand. So, you know, six of one. Yeah. So I wanted to just kind of talk through, I know we've done a little bit of this already, but kind of some, some more of the pros and cons of each, right? So both big dogs and small dogs definitely have good things and bad things. Uh, so kind of off the top of my head, right? I think bending down for a little dog can stink, right? Like they're little, they're close to the floor. Um, you know, even with Levi, who is kind of a more medium dog, um, pulling on leash suddenly becomes a lot less of a big deal. Like kind of like Nancy was saying earlier, you can either pick them up or, um, even just purely the force with which they're able to pull on a leash, right?

Like it's less versus the German shepherd, like mine, who wants to pull me across parking lot. Can you each just kind of, maybe just talk about some of the pros and cons that you've observed? Cause you've all had the experience of training now, both littles and bigs. Nancy, do you want to start this one? Sure. Yeah. Um, bending down. Definitely. There's been times where I've had to take breaks from training. It's yeah. Um, and I think we covered this as cons. Well, um, the small pieces of food. Oh my God. They drive me crazy. Do I break them up ahead of time? They could be all, I found a few, um, places that have them, you know, in small pieces, which is, you know, that's great, but you know, it, that's, and differ is really good with her toys. So I do mix up, you know, with toy and food, but there's times where you use a lot of food and it's just crazy. So that, um, that's, that's really one of the biggest, um, you know, for a really small dog, you know, the, the food, um, they're closer to the ground. They notice more things there. Um, so that's, that's an issue. Um, it, the in agility. So in agility, if they hit a bar, it really hurts. Um, you know, that's happened to differ a couple of times and that's, that's a big deal to a small dog. So that's a negative. Um, they get underfoot. We've talked about that before, but in terms of agility is, oh my God, I do a lot of blind crosses, but I lose her. Where are you? You know, when I do the blind cross, you're kind of looking to reconnect and I can't find her. That's an issue, you know, huge. Um, the, the one thing I'll, I'll talk about too, a little bit more specific to being here and living in Minnesota is the winters here are really awful and they're a little more sensitive to the cold. Um, so that becomes an issue. Wind can be an issue if you're outside with the little dogs. Um, you know, it's blowing a lot. If they're on the contacts, you know, it's really unsafe doing that. Um, the, the other thing that, um, you know, uh, in, in my area out in the country, we have a lot of coyotes and owls. So that's a huge issue for me is keeping her safe when she goes out, um, and training her. I basically let lever run around while I train her out in the field. Um, cause he's really good. He stays out of the way. He doesn't, you know, it's not affecting his training because he's, he's pretty good about that. And what's happened, what I really liked that's happened is because of that, she's become very focused on me and while she always is, but, um, but it's really helped her in terms of, you know, distractions.

Um, in terms of the pros, um, boy, portability is a big deal. Um, I really liked the portability of the little dog. Amy covered that a little bit more, but I'm thinking in terms of, you know, my dogs always have to fly in cargo. The big dogs. Um, if I want to go to nationals, I, I usually drive, um, there and with her, if I go to, if I end up, you know, do we doing well enough? We can actually, you know, she can actually fly with me, which is awesome. Um, tugging. The other thing, you know, I never thought about, but the, the pros is if she bites me accidentally and I mean, she's little, you know, the border collies, if they hit my hand, holy cow, I've got a big cut there. Um, so, and they live longer, you know, generally they live longer and they compete longer than the big dogs. One other thing that's really important to me is, oh my God, poop. There is so tiny. Oh my God. Tiny. So, I mean, I guess that's a pro, but then it could be a con. I guess you're traveling and you're trying to pick it up too, but, but anyway, that covers a lot of feeding, you know, the. So much less food. They're cheaper. Oh my goodness. Yes. Yeah. It's, there's a lot of pros and cons. Do you find it difficult with the smaller pieces to, uh, for example, throw the treat and have the dog be able to find it? Is that also a thing? Do not throw food in the grass because that's, it's just, yeah. I, I, yeah. And base when I'm outside, I try to use toys as much as possible, or I just, you know, she's being fed on a station or directly to her mouth or, um, but, um, I rarely anymore, unless it's a reset, I'll do that inside. Um, there, yes. Yeah. I'm just really careful about that because they seek, you know, they've, they find crumbs, little teeny tiny crumbs that the Border Collies don't even see. He's scavenging everywhere. It's like a little, where did you find that? And the Border Collies, the big dogs don't even notice it. It can be right near them. But so they're going to find tiny pieces of things. So no, I generally with her do not throw as much. Um, you know, I try to set it up a little different. I'm thinking of like the, the dog's perspective of like an agility course. Uh, so the first thing that comes to mind is a teeter is the amount of drop of the teeter perceived to be more when you're tiny and it takes a little bit longer and it's a little bit more like the Tower of Terror. Is it more of the Tower of Terror type thing? Like, when is this going to fall? I mean, we don't know for sure. We can make guesses based on the dog's behavior and reactions to it.

But, um, other things that come to mind are like the, the feet of the jump. They'll often have to jump over the feet of the jumps for wrapping or really tight turns because they'll land closer to the bar. Um, or they have to change the way they're jumping so that they do land beyond the foot of the jump and, uh, or having to wrap an obstacle that also has the timing equipment on it. It makes the jump so much bigger than it would be for a large dog that would land beyond it. Um, they, a small dog might use the feet of the weephole bases more than a large dog might. Um, I'm trying to think of what else. It's like around here when you show indoors, if the feet are lined up as well and the dog isn't driving ahead and boy, I've learned a lot about training small dogs based on that. Yeah. It, oh, and then the, the, the other thing I was thinking about was displacement of reward period. Um, if we're rewarding from our hands, it's so easy to reward with the small dog's head up. Um, so that could be really damaging to your weephole performance or to your stop contact performance or, or anything really. Um, just because it's so much easier to just let the dog kind of jump on you and grab the cookie from kind of up dancing on your leg where we wouldn't do that with a large dog. Right. We, we have an easier time keeping their heads lower because we don't have to bend as low. So those types of things, um, can, I don't know if it's easier or harder, um, or pro or con, just something you have to be aware of with placement of reward that you can't, even though you're maybe trying to do the exact same thing, it's a different body movement than the handler. It definitely affects the smaller dog more, I think, um, than the bigger dog. You can sort of get away with it with a big dog, but it's still not good, but with a little dog. Right, because the amount of their head coming up is so much more if you're super small. So if you reward with a large dog's head up, it's not the same amount of up as it would be with a small dog. So those are the things that I think of, um, as far as training that Nancy didn't already cover. All good thoughts. Yeah. Those are all great thoughts. I was sitting here just listening to the podcast all of a sudden, um, great lists. Um, trying not to cover things you said, but I'm sure I will, but the things in my list tend to be, uh, also a little more, more managey, like, um, I, I really think much more better safety than I ever had to. I really think about maintaining that there's no interaction between dogs. I don't know, no interaction between dogs.

I don't know on leash, not even a quick sniff, not even if I think it'll be okay because of how much risk we're talking about. Um, the food thing, yay, they're cheaper and yay, the poop is smaller, but also there's only so much, um, like when we're talking about living with and pet dog training stuff and crate training and putting them up in pens and giving them things to do. A lot of that is food puzzle. A lot of that is a topple. A lot of that is a frozen Kong. And I don't have unlimited calorie budget for that kind of thing. So, you know, if you have any kind of behavior problem and you need to use food for this, um, you're in sometimes a little bit of a bind. So there's that. Um, although I would take a well-behaved obese dog that I can take the weight off of later, but I'm just saying I can't always put her up with a frozen Kong because now I have given her like twice as much food for the day, you know? Um, so there's that. Um, I, I love that I can pick them up. I love that you can fly them. I love that you can, I love that they're forgiven more stuff in like, if you're going to, like I live in a dog friendly area and many stores are, um, dog friendly or dog flexible. If you can have her in your arms, you can come in real quick and make a quick purchase. Super handy, right? Um, often they're not noticed in a car, a small crate in a car. Isn't a scene by a passerby who wants to maybe insert themselves even on a cold day that your dog shouldn't be in a car. They're not a scene. Um, they are often more universally liked by the public, um, which is good and bad, right? You get a lot of, Oh my God, look at that thing. On the other hand, it's, it's, you know, you're not walking a big black block headed dog that someone doesn't want to say hi to. Right. So pros and cons, um, uh, you know, maybe easier moving, renting those kinds of things. Not that we're doing that, but for listeners that can, that can help. Also, um, I take less, uh, impact for things like feet on my body in play. I often, I do a calculation for teaching that to a larger dog. How much feet on me do I want? And what is the experience with you when you put your feet on me and the bigger the dog, obviously the harder that can be. And I just didn't calculate that with her. It's like, sure, put your feet on whatever you want to put it on and, and, you know, drive into me and S and you can slam right into my body. Won't even notice. And it's fun for you. Kind of like fly ball, turn off my body. Um, the calculation isn't this tight. I can say, yep, that's fine. As long as it's not a behavior problem in some other realm, it's easy to do.

Whereas a non-behavior problem punching of me with a large dog, I'm like, well, I got to take it off the list. Even if it's fun for both of us, cause it's not fun for both of us. It hurts my stomach. Um, and so like getting, letting her feel her body, letting her feel her, her power on me, um, doesn't cost me as, as much. I don't have to do as much thinking about it. And that's really handy. I love being able to pick them up for loopy training for a sense of, I'm sorry, not loopy for sense of like, um, if I have to talk to the instructor, uh, which I'm often overly deferential about and disconnect from my dog around. And I'm always telling myself I have to be better about those things instead of having to put her in a down and, and, and train all of that. I can, I can ask her to come to me, ask her to be picked up, pick her up. And now I can be feeding her right in my arms while I'm, while I'm talking. And it's not as hard for me to multitask that. Um, so that's just great. Um, it's easier to, I find it easier to teach them loosely walking, uh, but you're not as motivated to. So you have to remind yourself that those things are important. It's maybe for some harder to, to, to do house training, but for me, it's the same procedure. So I don't find it harder, but for a big dog, you're going to be much more motivated to do it because your mistakes are much more costly. So people tend to really get on house training on the bigs. Um, so you, you gotta get on it, but you know, people sometimes think the smalls are harder to do and their bladders are smaller and their timeline is smaller. So you do have to get on top of it, but, but it's the same for that. And then, um, kind of lastly, some of them bark a little more than, than others. Not again, not all of them. I know that, but some of the ones in the toy dog category, I used to have a no barking rule, uh, in my house. And I used to, and I'm not saying everybody should, but you can train, you can, you can decide that you're going to have that. And then some dogs will challenge you on whether, on how much is achievable, um, in that regard. Um, but the dogs in my life so far, I've been able to say, we have a no barking rule. You're going to have to keep that to a minimum. And her minimum is a different line than my other dogs achievable minimum. And I've had to be more flexible about what I will have come under the no barking rule. Um, and so, you know, for some people that's going to matter for other people, they don't care. Uh, cough, cough, Sheltie, cough, cough. Um, so it's okay. But, um, for me, I love, I love the advantages they bring.

And I like, I think I'll always stick with having at least some dog in my house. Who's got, who's got not just a small stature, but a different mentality, a little, a little, a little bit of toy dog thought to them because, um, I like what it, I like what it brings. You have to, you have to tamp down on some of the hyper-sociality. Everybody wants to pet your dog. So you don't get the benefit of, of people avoiding you with the large dog. Um, but on the other hand, you have this potential little ambassador who, who, you know, changes your social life a little bit. So, so it's, it's all pros and cons. You're always making a, uh, you know, an adjustment on both sides. But, um, I really find, I just, I love having the littles and, and, um, I hopefully we'll have one forever. I think it's just been great. I thought about one thing in terms, we talked a lot about agility. Um, and I, I thought of a couple of things for obedience people, um, two is the healing is so much more difficult in, um, with a little dog because of the issue with the, is the pressure of the handler and keeping a dog in position. Um, and, you know, I used to judge obedience for many years and I know that it's much easier as a judge to see the deviations on a little dog, a little smooth dog. Um, you know, it's very easy to see any deviation there. Um, and also one of the things in terms of healing, um, is the handler has to be so much more precise about turns and being compact, you know, turning around on about turns. If you step into their space at all, it's like, it's a huge, huge issue. Um, so, and one of the things that is, um, in obedience is any kind of, uh, examination stand is very, very difficult, um, for a small dog because people, lots of judges do not know how to examine them and they treat them like a, you know, like a, uh, something that's going to break and the approach is so, you know, scares the dog. So, um, I think they have to learn about, uh, they've got to learn things a little more differently than the big dogs. Big dogs don't have to go through that, that looming over, um, that the small dogs do. Uh, Nancy, I know, um, we had talked in advance about the idea of something you've learned and I wasn't going to ask, but I know you have something special you wanted to share. And I wanted to know if you snuck it in there, if you want to share. Oh yeah. You didn't have to, but yeah. So I, I thought about this cause I knew that this was a question that was going to be asked, but, um, this applies to me. And basically, you know, as is when I was training a little dog is just believe in your dog.

I, if you believe in your dog and you have a vision about your dog and what you want from them, I think you can do just about anything. I think a lot of times we end up trapping ourselves and thinking that, well, they can't do this. Um, you just, you know, believe that they can and, you know, expect failures and continue to move on and make plans and continue to think about it. And, but the most important thing for me is just keep believing in them. I think, um, in this day and age, we stop believing our dogs can do any, and this applies to big dogs too, but we stop believing in our dogs and then things just continue to fail. And, um, this it's the same way with kids too. If you don't believe in them, they're just going to kind of end up becoming who you think they should be. Um, so, so that was my thought. I mean, that's a very nice sentiment, Nancy. I'm glad you contributed it. Cause it made me think that, that just now, like that we have to both cut our little dogs slack, you know, slack and also not cut our dog, our little dogs slack. So it's like, you're you, we have to hold them to a standard. They are dogs and they can achieve all of the training. All the other dogs can achieve and people cut them too much slack and don't ask them to stick to a standard. And then on the other hand, you have to understand that their perspectives are different. Their fears are going to be a little different or could be. And if you're not willing to cut your little dog a little more slack for the challenges of life, you're going to not be training the dog in front of you. So cut them slack, but also don't cut them so much slack. They can, they can do stuff and, and, and you can show them the respect that training really can give them. I think a lot of times we generalize ourselves and we look at how other dogs of this, you know, are doing out there and they, maybe they can't do the things that you want to do. And that doesn't mean that your dog can't do it. Right. Right. That's right. Yeah, for sure. Each team, each dog, it's, it brings a new perspective to the training process. And, you know, we're constantly being reminded that just because we've done it one way for X amount of years or dogs or everyone else has been doing it this way. Sometimes we have to make those adjustments regardless of the size or the breed, just take on the new perspective and embrace it and move forward on it. Absolutely. Awesome. I think that's a perfect note to end on. So thank you all for coming on. I really appreciate it. Yeah, it was fun. It was fun. Thank you for having us, Melissa. Definitely. What a great topic. Awesome.

Thank you guys. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Body. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Thank you.