E184: 셰이드 화이트셀(Shade Whitesel) - "스포츠 독에게 장난감 기술이 중요한 이유"

from, like, behavior skills, which would be sit, go do the tunnel, jump that jump. And it doesn't mean that behavior skills can't be reinforcing in themselves. If they're cheap and easy, they can be. But just separate them in your minds right now. So, toy skills are important because if we want to use a toy to reinforce high arousal stuff, we need to get it back. And we also need to make sure that the dog enjoys it and that the handler understands what the dogs enjoy. Because it's really personal to the dog. They might not like a particular way that you tugged with your dog before them. So, and I'm, and Talek, my young dog is really, really driving that point home right now to me is that he doesn't like to tug like one's tugs. He doesn't like to play like one's he taught or plays. He plays, he loves it, but he's different. So, that's why we need to spend some time training those reinforcers. Yeah. Do all sports dogs kind of need that deliberate training on toy skills? For me, I'm just going to use me. I think they do. I'm sure everybody thinks differently about it. So, I want to be sensitive to that. But for me, I think that, again, we need to know what they like. And we really need to be able to get the toys back. Toys are so unique as a reinforcer because with most other reinforcers, we can, we have, we as humans have control of the reinforcement. Okay. So, if we give you food, the dog eats the food. They no longer have the food. Okay. If, like, say, we're going to use scratching as a reinforcer, we can take our hand away and decide when to end that. With toys, it's really unique that when you're playing with your dog, most of the time that play involves the dog having their mouth on the toy, whether it's chase or tug. And they are partly in control of giving up that reinforcer. So, that's why I think that we do need to have deliberate training because of the unique thing of trying, unique concept in toys of trying to get that toy back. So, that's the part that needs training. Oftentimes, the play itself doesn't need training, but getting the toy back for another rep often needs a lot of training, especially dependent on what kind of dog you have, what type of personality. Like you said, if you can't get it back, you can't do the next rep. Right. So, you have a lot less reps with toys. And, you know, I mean, you can, I always say this example, but you can have glorious healing. You have perfect healing. You give the dog the ball and it runs away and you spend the next 15 minutes trying to get the ball out of its mouth.

And it's, you only got one rep and it's kind of hard to remember, for the dog to remember that it got the ball for the healing instead of the glorious keep away that happened afterwards. So, yeah. Yeah. And then to just kind of, you know, I don't know if hammer in, but kind of emphasize your other point, like obviously you can't use something as a reinforcer unless it's reinforcing. Yeah. So, you do. There's a lot of people that, that belong to sports that say their dog must do this. And then they want to, they want to train that. So, the dog must tug and their dog doesn't like tugging. So, there's two things I see with people. You can, they're playing tug, not a way that the dog enjoys. So, I can modify that. I can get people to under, to start to understand that their dog might want to tug in a different way than what they are. So, we can build the enjoyment of the tugging. Or the dog doesn't have the genetics to really like toy play. There's certainly a lot of dogs out there like that. And then it's best trying to, it's best that your time is spent trying to train other reinforcers and dropping the fact that you want your dog to play tug. Because, yes, in order to train behaviors, it needs to be reinforcing to the dog. And there's plenty of great driven dogs out there who just don't enjoy tugging with their owners. And that's okay. So. Can you just talk a little bit about what might lead you to choose, you know, to work on a behavior with toys versus food? Like, how do you make that call? So, the trainer I am today trains most stuff with food and then puts, and then uses toy to reinforce it once the dog understands it better. It's so much easier to get a lot more reps in with the food. It's so much easier to get precise behavior with the food. Um, and then get duration and a lot more motivation with the toy later. So, that's the trainer I am today. Um, I have struggled with telex healing because when he knew that toy was a reinforcer, when he was a young dog, he would go into this really stocky, sticky behavior because he's thinking chase thoughts or he's thinking tug thoughts. And it put him in this state of mind that was awful for healing. You can't get pretty healing when your dog's like stiff legged and stocking. Um, at least not the healing picture I want. So, I had to, so in the past I've always trained healing with toy. So, I really had to go back and train healing with food with him. Uh, and then go from there. And now I can use toy and I can use toy not to get higher arousal in his case, but I can get a lot more duration with the toy.

So, that's where I might make that decision to train because I can oftentimes, because the toy puts them in a higher excitement and they usually, at least the type of dogs I have, like the toy better than the food. So, I can get more duration and it, that's important to me, especially in obedience stuff where I can get a lot of work for, uh, less reps. So, less reps of play, I guess is what I mean. Yeah. But most of the stuff, stuff that involves running, um, like I'm thinking of like a send out, I want fast behavior. So, like go around a cone, um, I might use toy to actually train that behavior. So, the other thing too, and I, I don't know if you're, I'm just maybe going on a tangent here is that, um, it's an important concept. So, I'm saying the trainer I am today wants to train stuff with food and then put it to toy. But it's a very important concept for your toy dog to have, at least in my opinion right now, that they need to know how to shape with a toy as the reinforcer. They need to be able to offer behaviors, specifically movement behaviors for the toy. And so, that's a decision that I will make to make sure that my dog has that concept. And if they don't have that concept, then I think in my opinion, you're going to have issues later on when you're adding toy to it. So, and I, I think, and I might be putting like words into the dog's mouth here or saying, you know, what they're thinking, which is a no, no, but they need to be able to offer operant behaviors for the toy, not because of the toy. Does that make sense to put it that way? So like toy and not because of the toy. Right. So we tend to do a lot of, the dog tends to follow the toy around a lot. Okay. So we want focus forward. We'll throw the toy and then we'll get a jump. And the dog is going, Hey, I get that toy. And the toy is ahead of my lane. So I want to go and get it. Okay. And so the jumps in the way, I'm going to jump and do it. What I also, which is good. It's awesome. What I also want is the dog's ability to offer that jump with the toy in my hand. And so that involves doing something movement and that involves something, doing something away from the toy and thoughtful enough that they're not so thinking toy thoughts and they can actually jump cleanly and carefully and not knock the bar and then get the toy. Does that make sense? So it's more like you can do that offered behavior for the toy. And so that's a big concept that I want dogs to understand, regardless of decisions I make in which behaviors I'm going to train. You could almost view the toy kind of out on the ground and they say the jump almost as a lure, right?

Versus the behavior they're offering. Yeah. More prompted, which is absolutely fine because we want that focus forward. But also, but separately, I want them to have the concept to being able to do that exact same behavior. So I'm going to do both in that. I'm just thinking like go around a cone. Um, I really want a dog to be able to offer to go around a cone for a toy, for a toy in my hands, for a toy on the ground. Um, and I want them to have that concept. Yeah. My next question is really about what, what we consider when we're talking about toy skills, right? So like, it's kind of like a phrase, but what does it really mean? Like when we're talking about that, um, you know, what you just talked about as an example, like being able to offer a behavior for the toy and not just go to get the toy, right? Can you talk through some of the other things that kind of fall under toy skills? What are we talking about? What does that look like? So, um, I'm sure other people talk about it differently, but for me, what I mean when I talk about toy skills is I'm mostly talking about, uh, the dog's ability to distinguish between, do I chase that toy or do I tug that toy? Those are two different motions from the dog. And I want them to understand that they don't go for the toy in your hand until you tell them to, uh, and to really know the difference between, do I turn around and chase the toy versus do I jump forward and strike it from your hands? I don't want the sight of the toy to be, um, to mean jump forward and, and, and tug. I want the owner to be able to move that toy, have that toy in their hands, have the toy in their pocket, be able to take the toy out of their pocket, uh, and present it before the dog is biting their hands or biting at the toy. Um, I want them to be chasing it if the owner said chase. So I want them to understand those two different motions and have that self-control and that listening, um, so that the owner is not afraid to use the toy because the dog might bite their hands or, and also that we can try to do stuff with the toy in our hands moving. And the dog is not trying to, uh, get it. Um, so it's really that, that self-control and that ability, um, of the dog and handler to understand those verbal cues, uh, and physical cues. And then also there is, um, the reset and what I'm calling the reset is that we need to somehow get the toy back. So whether the dog delivers it to your hand, whether they drop it at your feet, um, that is really, really, really important for me. And I want that to be offered. I can't, uh, emphasize this enough.

I want the dog to participate in the whole toy game. And so just like, um, we want, when we're using food, we want the dog to eat the food and then return their attention right back to us. Okay. If you think about that, um, we're not usually going to try to train a dog that is eating the food and sniffing or eating the food and sort of wandering off. That's not a dog that's kind of ready for us. The same thing with the food. We have to train the dog or with the toy. We have to train the dog to give the toy back, uh, so that that's the dog we want to train the dog. That's like, Hey, I want to work. I want to do stuff. So, um, so yeah, they need to be able to give it back without too much coercion on our part, like drop it, drop, drop it, or come back here, you know, all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, so that's kind of, those two things are, are pretty important to me. And I can see like, especially with powerful German shepherds that you are teaching to intentionally bite and bite firmly and hold things while you don't want somebody to accidentally grab your hand. Yeah. Yes. It hurts. It hurts. I've had client after client come to me where they either can't get a toy out of their pocket, you know? Um, and if you can't put a toy in your pocket while you're training stuff, not that you do this all the time, but it needs to be a process that the toy needs to not be in sight and you still need to be able to get the behavior. Uh, or like, you know, um, think about like maybe even agility skills. We want to be able to direct the dog to do something and move with a toy in our hand and not have the dog grab it. So things like that are pretty important and it hurts. Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then I was thinking too, just kind of to bring it back to what you're saying before about wanting the dog to offer behavior. I can totally see how, you know, working that stimulus control or self-control around the toy could lead to a dog that freezes or hold still as that's the behavior that they want to offer to get the toy versus going to do the thing. Right. Exactly. Um, and you'll have different dogs have different genetic instincts in there and different, um, uh, it's, you know, whatever their, uh, genetics are telling them to. And I'm just thinking of Talek in particular, like he, he wanted to control himself around the toy. So he was thinking, okay, what do I need to do? I'm going to freeze. I'm going to control myself and freeing him up to do motion stuff was very, very hard for him in the presence of a toy. And there's definitely a certain type of dog that that's very true for. Uh, and you can work through it.

I know you can, but it's, it's way harder with a dog like that than a dog that is able to offer free behavior, free movement around with the toy. So just different types of personalities. And it's pretty cool. Yeah. So one of the games I know you kind of use to get that, bring it back thing, um, is two ball. So can you kind of just talk us through what that is? And I know some people are like, oh, two ball. And then other people are like, wait, what is that? Right. Just hoping we can talk a little bit. Um, so let's call it two toy. It's a two ball because everyone thinks it has to be with balls and really balls are so erratic when they, um, land that I actually prefer most of the time tugs or tug type toys. Um, and I also, um, back when I said a couple of questions ago that toy play is kind of unique and that you have to get the toy back. Well, if you have, if you start your toy play skills teaching with two toys, then you always have control of one toy. So even though it's a little bit prompty where you always have one, um, it's actually more like when you have other reinforcers and that you have more control over it. Okay. So the dog can drop one and you already have one. So that's kind of the big part of it. Um, the other part of it is that most of the time it's chase. So if you have two toy, you might, um, throw one and then the dog chases it, brings it back, drops it, and then you can throw the other one. Um, I love that because you don't have to reach down and get the toy from the dog. The dog drops it and then you can throw the other one. Um, and this is important because that's often the sticking point for a lot of dogs is us trying to get the one that they have in their mouth. Whereas if we have two toys, then it can just not be about that one. And so in teaching the handler doesn't have to weight shift. They don't have to look at the one in their mouth. Um, they don't have to give all that body language that is like, I want that. I want that. And the dog's like, I know you want it. Therefore I'm not giving it back. Okay. So with two toys, that transition, uh, can get taught a lot easier. And I kind of want to say like oftentimes coming back with something in their mouth or dropping it on the ground, that's for many, many dogs, not for all, but for many dogs, that's expensive behavior. And so it needs to be reinforced quickly and a lot. So I don't, so in teaching, it makes sense to reward that drop, um, immediately without the behavior of reaching for it and getting it and then doing it. Okay. Just to, just acknowledging that for most dogs, that's very expensive behavior, dropping something.

German shepherds in particular, um, you know, so that they taught me because they like to hold onto stuff and we've really taught them, especially the working lines to really hold and to find satisfaction in that holding. Uh, but I think a lot of dogs, it's much harder than people realize, uh, for the majority of dogs. Yeah. And I mean, Levi is not a German shepherd by any means. And he, uh, like absolutely has that problem, right? He likes to have the thing, um, and not bring the thing back. Right. And I think too, that we, because we add work after the drop, it becomes a thing. Even if the dog is born with, Hey, I bring it back and I give it to you. And they're really cooperative because of the necessity of having to put obedience or work or something in after that drop, it, it definitely becomes a thing for the majority of dogs. Um, so yeah, and it's just the fact of training with toys. Uh, so again, that unique thing of, they have to give it up in order to start the next rep. So you kind of need them to re opt in even. You do. We're talking about, right? Yeah. Um, and so, yeah, that's exactly what we're talking about. Uh, is that toy play. Well, I think that all training kind of, you can look at it as a loop. So if you give a dog a piece of food, they eat it and then they opt in by orientating back to us. And for me, I want to train a specific or a specific opt-in of like eye contact, uh, cause I want to operate behavior. I don't want them just turning towards the treat hand. Um, but with the toys that is exactly, exactly the same thing, drop the toy and look at me as a way of opting in. I want to do this thing again. So, yeah. Yeah. So when are, I mean, start to talk a little bit of that there about adding in work. So when are toy skills actually good enough that you can start to add work to the game? I mean, what does that picture look like? So, and that's a really good question because a lot of people try to put behaviors into the game when they still have to prompt the dog to come back with the toy or to drop it, drop it. And so if you think about like a two toy game, whether you're tugging or you're chasing, um, I would like the dog to be able to, uh, whenever you let them have it, to be able to come back to you, reorientate immediately back to you without you having to run away or cokes or clap. I'm a big clapper. Hey, come back. Um, so I have to consciously not do it. Uh, but you want that to be offered the return. Okay. So if you think about it, if you, if you throw the ball 20 feet and the dog goes and gets

it, I want them coming back as straight as that individual dog can do without you having to call them. Um, with tug, same thing. You let them have the tug. They tugged really well. You let them have it. I want them instantly, uh, shooting forward to you. Okay. So, and I want, again, without any coaxing. So I want that. And then I want, um, the, um, let's say, uh, I want, um, the drop of the, the toy to be offered as well. I don't want you to have to show the dog, the other toy that you have in order to get the dog to drop the toy they have. I want them to, I want the dog to, I mean, we all have that dog in our memory of like the lab, um, or I knew this Australian shepherd. It's like the vending machine. She would just like, like chase the ball, come back and just spit it out at your feet. Do it again, do it again. And while we oftentimes ruin that a little bit, um, that essentially is what I want where the dog's like, do it, do it again. Um, and they're throwing the toy at you with that kind of, um, concept and you're not having to beg or prompt or lure or show them the other toy or command them or things like that. Um, I also want, so that's two things. I also want the dog. So we're talking about, I don't want you having to prompt or, or lure the drop or the return, but I also, and this is big because there's definitely, uh, types of personalities of dogs that have no issue with that. They want to play all the time. Okay. So, um, and those types of dogs who actually, actually all the types of dogs, but for those dogs, especially those are the ones that really need to know the difference and the physical signals of come back to place the tug in my hand for more tugging or come back to drop it at my feet. And then I'll cue you what is next. So what I don't want dogs doing, um, or I don't want to start work until they've got this figured out is coming back and body slimming the owner play with me now. So I really want them understanding when they should be targeting the hands with their toys and when they should be dropping the toy. Does that make sense? So there's definitely a personality of dog that's like, Hey, play with me now. And is smacking into the owner. Uh, and I, or even just the Aussie I described of the, um, thrown at their feet. If we want to add tug into that dog's game, I want them to understand when to place the toy in our hands. And so that goes back to what I talked about previously about the difference between the tugging and the chasing. I want the dog to understand the difference of that, um, as they're coming back with the toy. So, yeah.

So when they know all that, that's when I'll start to add some, some behavior skills. And it sounded like you started to, um, also kind of tease this idea of their expectations maybe of like coming back and I'm going to throw it again versus coming back and we're going to do something else. Yeah. Is that kind of also in there or is that kind of what we're talking about when we say adding work to the game? Um, are you thinking like, um, the fact that when we're training, are you thinking about when we're adding work? So like the dog has the expectation that they're going to get more play instead of work. Is that what you're thinking about or asking? Yeah. So, so yeah, I mean, you mentioned in there something about, um, and I thought you were going to go one direction and you went a slightly different direction. So I'm just kind of curious. Um, but, uh, you mentioned something in there about, you know, when the dog comes back, um, demanding more play, right? Like you went to body, but I was thinking that you were going to go to, you know, you don't want the dog to think you're going to throw the toy again. And then you ask for work because now the dog's disappointed and that's going to impact work. Right. So, I mean, when we are teaching a dog about adding work to the game, is that really what we're teaching them is how to like, ultimately is that we're looking for is how to clarify for them. Okay. Now we're going to do a thing versus we're just kind of having fun or we're just kind of. So excellent question. That can be really, really complicated. And I might have a different answer next year. Um, however, the basics are, I want the toy. I want the reset, which is the coming back and giving you the toy, um, or coming back to tug or oftentimes it involves dropping on the ground. I want that reset to be clean, as clean as, and as clear as that particular dog can do it. Cause some dogs can drop it right away. Some dogs need to chomp it a couple of times. I want that to be as clear as the individual dog can do it before I ask for a behavior skill. Okay. So there's that part, your toy skills, your resets need to be clean before you ask for behaviors. There's that part of it. And then there's also the part that if it takes you two years to train the toy skills, and then all of a sudden you ask for a sit, it's going to be so much harder for your dog than if they were playing for six weeks, they had the basics and you asked for a sit. So it is sort of a race to try to get as many toy skills as you can on your dog in a relatively

short amount of time, because if they are dropping and always expecting a throw or a tug, then it is so hard for them to then get used to the fact that they need to like, think about it, not just chase, uh, do other stuff. And it is, um, hard expectation for them. That's not to say that the dogs can't always learn because they always can. It's amazing how flexible dogs are if we really look at it. Um, but the longer the dog has been playing, expecting play, the harder it is to put work into it for sure. Fair enough. And I think that that kind of gets at what I was, um, what I was asking for sure. And I think we've been dancing around it, but I know that one of the things that you call out specifically in your lectures and your toy class is this idea of kind of listening to your dog's feedback. Yeah. So do you want to just kind of expand on that and kind of explain how it weaves into some of the stuff we've been talking about? Right. Right. Um, well, after you've taught the toy skills, you're looking at that reset. Okay. Um, and it's really what the dog's opt-in behavior is. Uh, so again, if you think about the metaphor, the food, if you're training with food and you go to a different location and you give the dog food and they eat it and they look around at their environment and they might sniff a little, and then they look back at you. Um, I hope that you wouldn't be training that dog, that, that head of that dog. Okay. Because they're not ready. You don't have total buy-in. And so I think you can see this really easily with food where if the dog takes the food and then sniffs, they're not opting into the training session. Does that make sense to put it that way? Cause we can all see that. Um, and I'm big on that offered behavior. So I really want the dog like going, Hey, I ate the food and then I'm, um, I don't feel the need to look at my environment. What do you want me to do to their handler? So if we think about that with toys, I want a similar opt-in with the toys. And that involves giving us the toy back or dropping it at our feet and then looking at us, Hey, what are we going to do? And if that reset is different from what the dog normally does, then that tells you something about the training session. And by different, I mean, let's say you have a dog that normally picks up the ball and comes straight back. Um, then if they, you take them to the park to play and they arc, then that's a, that's a big deal for that particular dog. That dog is saying something about this environment is I kind of need to glance around as I'm coming back. I'm not doing my normal behavior. Okay.

Or let's say you're training in your normal training place, which for me is my front yard. I do some sequencing. I do 50 steps of healing and I give the dog my, my toy and he, he doesn't like he arcs coming back. Well, that tells me something about his expectations is, or I'm not, I'm putting words in the dog's mouth, but, but if it's different, that possibly tells me that the training that I just did was hard and the dog needs more reinforcement back to that reset part of coming back and dropping was not clean. So the dog needs more, more reinforcement, not more work. Now people have a really, really hard time with this because they feel like if the dog arcs or doesn't come back right away or takes, um, some extra chomps to drop the ball and you then throw the ball for them again, or throw the toy or do more tugging that you're then reinforcing the dog, not bringing back the toy. And fair enough, you are reinforcing them. Okay. The same way that if you, the dog sniffs after eating the food and you, and finally looks at you and then you give them another piece of food, you're still reinforcing that whatever happened in that loop of training. Okay. But the greater thing is that emotionally you do not have, that dog is not clear headed and ready to really work with you. Am I making sense there? It's like, if the re if the opt-in is not right there, um, clean and clear, then you need to do more work at getting the dog understanding that this location is safe, this, whatever is safe. And you do that by providing more reinforcement, which then gets the dog to buy in quicker and quicker. Hopefully I'm making sense there. Uh, because it's like, it's not about what behavior the dog's doing right there. It's about the emotional state. And to deal with that, you add more reinforcement. And that's a hard thing for people to sort of wrap their heads around sometimes. Oh, it's totally a hard thing. It reminds me kind of the same idea of like testing versus training, right? Like, and, and it's the same, it's the same mental gymnastics for lack of a better word, but like the fact that, okay, we tested this, the dog gave us information. Now is not necessarily the time to fix that, right? Let's do something else. And then we need to fix that. Right. So in this case, it's, it's, you know, your dog gave you information that they are not the thing that you just asked them to do is not a easy thing for them to do in whatever way. So we need to get their brain to a good place before we try to do it again. Right. And we need to build more trust that we're going to reinforce a lot for hard behaviors,

because a lot of times we overpay for easy behaviors and we underpay for hard behaviors. And so as trainers, I think we need to start looking at that better because that, that is across the board. We do that. And I, I know I myself do it. Okay. Uh, so we need to look at that and your dog will tell you when is that happening. They will tell you when the location is hard, when the distractions are hard, and they'll tell you that they need more reinforcement when your training is hard. So it's just important to me right now as a trainer to know what my dog is thinking because they're helping me be a better trainer. Like, I don't know that 50 steps of healing was hard for you. So thanks for letting me know, here's more payment for that. And then we'll do more. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, do you then make it easier? The next rep? Um, theoretically, yes. Usually what I do is I do more reinforcement. I wait until there, this, the drop in my case is clean again, fast. Uh, and then I'll do, um, then I might do easier if I'm working on a particular thing. Um, I might not do easier. I might still do the 50 steps of healing if that's what we're working on. Actually, honestly, I never do 50 steps of healing twice in a row. That easier. But if I'm working on something like, um, um, left turns, I'm still going to do the same left turn really. Um, especially if the dog did the right turn or the left turn correctly, I'm still going to do the same thing, but I'm going to instantly pay it more. So yeah. Yeah. So it depends training wise. So you kind of take these ideas, I think, and you kind of build on them, build on this idea of like listening to your dog and kind of taking your dog's feedback in your spaces in between class, right? Yeah. Kind of where that goes. Yeah. Cause we're trying to get our, from the home base. Um, we're trying to get, you know, from where we are to building a dog that can trial and away places like away locations. So oftentimes we've got great behaviors. Um, and we need to take that into the trial atmosphere or a seminar atmosphere. I sort of think of that as like, you know, it's all those behaviors that you need to train to successfully complete, but they're not behaviors that kind of make it into your training plan. Right. They're the things that kind of tend to get overlooked. Can you, can you share some, some of the skills that you kind of work on in that class and you know, how they play into being successful in competition? Well, you know, the three main things are the dog needs to be able to relax in the location that you are, that they are. Okay.

So we, I think we take that for granted or we don't realize that going to a different place with a lot of activities, especially dog activity. I mean, think about it. There's all the sports sounds. There's all the dogs running around. There's all these different smells and all these other dogs around other people. There's crowds, all of that stuff. And if you're going to like a seminar or a trial, um, it's really hard for the dog to be working all day and then still do a really good performance. So it's important for me. And I think for everybody to train the dog, to be able to go to different places and go and train, um, to go and be able to relax, whether it's in a crate, whether it's X-pen, whether it's on a mat, whether it's in the car, just to not be on. The entire day and to not be agitated moving, but to be able to relax. So that's a big deal is to be able to go to different environments and be okay with that. Um, there's also like the, um, the, um, being able to, um, go from point A to point B in the midst of that distraction. And I think that people take their transports for granted, or we don't practice them. I mean, I just think of myself, I go out and I train in the front yard and it's not like I loose leash walk to my front yard. You know, um, we go out the front door and we train, um, or the dogs already out there and I come out and I get my toys and we train and it's very informal, but that doesn't necessarily mean that if I go to a park, the dog can walk nicely from the leash, from the truck to where I'm going to train. And we have to put some time into, and some work into training that transport part of it. Okay. It doesn't have to be loose leash walking, but it has to be some semblance of ability to get the dog from point A to point B around all the distractions. You know, um, it's kind of frowned upon if your dog wants to greet every dog at an AKC trial, it's not going to fly. You know, they got to be able to walk past everything. Um, so yeah. So, and then kind of how to go across thresholds, how to stay there. Those kinds of things that aren't our sexy behavior skills that we're training, but, um, are definitely, uh, we should, we should start, um, reframing them as sexy life skills. We've been trying that, you know, it's equally as fun to train the, um, you know, that kind of stuff. Um, I'm going on a trip next month with my youngest dog. And honestly, I'm really excited about the training that I'm going to get, but I'm also really excited about being in a hotel and traveling on the road and being in a crate for a long time. And I'm excited about teaching him that stuff.

That's going to, if he does become the competition dog that I think he's going to become, that's just very, very important for him to be comfortable with. And I don't want his first time at a trial to be that, you know, I want him to be comfortable with staying in strange places and chilling out and possibly not getting his needs met and still having to perform in areas that, um, smell like a lot of stuff he hasn't smelled before. So, yeah, so I, I put that into my training a lot and I wish other people would as well or think it's important. So, yeah. I mean, you just kind of called out loosely schwalking and quiet, creating and distracting environment. So, I mean, we're talking about tough stuff to teach for a lot of people. Um, so do you want to just, how do you approach it? Do you want to just talk a little bit about that? So I think we need to realize how hard it is for the dog. Like we, you know, I used to be a pet dog trainer and people were like, I just want him to come when called and walk nicely on the leash. And those are like the hardest behaviors. Okay. Teaching the dog a down stay is so simple compared to teaching them to walk nicely on the leash. Okay. So we need to realize that it's really hard. It's hard to teach. It's hard for the dog to do. And then we expect this loosely walking in areas where the dog hasn't been. So it's like the hardest environment and the hardest skill for the dog to do. And then the recall added on top of that, come away from all the good stuff you want to go see, you know? So we really just need to not take it for granted and realize that this is not something that our three month old puppy can do. It is something that takes a year to train and maybe even longer so that it's acknowledgement that it needs a lot of reinforcement. It's hard behavior. We need to be consistent and that we need to not take it for granted. So, and then maybe thinking also about as we're training, the management part of it. So it's perfectly acceptable to manage it when the dog doesn't need to do it or can't do it. And I think we do lose track of that is the fact that I know my young puppy's not going to loose leash walk in a park he's never been in. So I'm going to stick his little body in a harness and work away we go, you know? I'm not going to worry about loose leash walking, which means that I'm not going to be practicing pulling on his collar at the same time in that distracting environment. I'm going to manage that, not put him in a situation where I get frustrated, he gets frustrated

and we're just going to, you know, have managed the fact that he can't loose leash walk and have him pull on different equipment. Does that make sense? Am I making sense? I feel like we lose sight of the fact that we can manage those circumstances for the dog while we're training and teaching them how to do it too. So, yeah. Yeah. I think especially with loose leash walking, that's something that people don't often think about managing. Yeah. And I'm just not going to expect my young dog to be able to do it. Because once the young puppies, I also think, you know, young puppies normally follow us around and there are, you know, we get used to that. We're like, oh, he's perfect. He sticks around, you know, and we kind of get loose leash walking easily with the young puppy because they're just following us. And then they hit 16 weeks and they're like, see ya. And then we wonder what happens. Yeah. So, a lot of this stuff kind of comes down to clear communication, right? And how important it is to remember that really what we're talking about here is a two-way street and we're talking about kind of fluency of behaviors, right? Like being able to do things in new environments and hard environments. And I mean, everything from like returning with the toy, right? To like walking nicely on a leash. There's kind of all kind of tie into those two ideas. Am I reading that right? Can you talk to that a bit? Am I on target there? Yes. Because it all comes down to clear communication. Depends on, we need to teach the skills. Okay. So, we need to teach that. And in the process of teaching it, the dog needs to know what is expected and we need to be clearer. And so, this might be going a little outside of your question, but I feel like sometimes we're not giving the dogs enough guidance in what is expected of them in circumstances. So, if I'm consistent and I expect you as an older dog that's learned the skill, I expect you not to pull on the leash, not yank me around, then I need to be consistent about that. And if I'm not consistent, sometimes you can pull on the leash and sometimes you can't, then the dog is left very confused and left wondering. It makes conflict between the dog and the owner. So, being consistent is also another word for having really clear cues of when you're, let's just take our loose leash walking, when you're allowed to pull and when you're not. Okay. So, this is a time where I'm not going to train you or I'm not in the mood to train. So, maybe instead of letting you pull on your collar, at risk of being inconsistent, I'm going to stick you on your harness. Okay.

So, that can be a very clear cue to the dog that they can then pull. So, it really does, we just need to be, we need to, I'm stumbling over my words here like normal, we need to be clear in our expectations for our dogs. And that is very helpful to our dogs. And then we need to give help when, help in the form of telling them what to do in circumstances where they don't know what to do. So, you're not really talking about it, but I'm thinking about, like, let's say I have a dog who is nervous about other dogs. I think that one part of the training is actually teaching the dog what to do in that circumstance. And that comes down to clear communication too. So, if you see a dog and you look at me and I tell you to come back and sit at my side, instead of just expecting you to be okay, that comes down to clear communication and what's expected out of the dog in that circumstance. So, I'd like us to think about things like that as well. Not leaving our dog hanging, maybe. So, cycling back to kind of what you are asking is like the buy-in and things like that is separately, I want to make sure that my training is reinforcing enough, that the dog likes it enough, that it's not too hard, that they're engaged. And I'm always looking at that part of the dog going, hey, I want to do more. And if they aren't, that tells me that I need to change something about my training session or where I am or work on a different part of it or whatever. So, I always want that offered dog. And this has to do with me using, if I don't have punishment or I don't have or else, then I do need an offered, a buy-in from my partner because I can't coerce it. I need the dog going, hey, I like this. And I need to keep tabs on that as well as their clear-headedness. I need to keep a lot of tabs on that so that I can get compliance or taught skills on hard, expensive behavior skills. So, hopefully that kind of ties it in basically. Yeah. Yeah. So, I've got one last question here. I tend to ask everybody every time I do a repeat interview here. So, the last question is just what's a lesson that you've learned or something that you've been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? So, I had something else written down. But kind of what I want to, I want to change that because I brought it up. And that when you are, when you have your second dog or your third dog or your fourth dog, I want you to figure out that dog. And I think we get stuck in what our prior dog liked or their habits or how they reacted. And this goes for everything. This just goes for everything. Like, one dog may be nervous around another dog.

Another dog may not. Okay. One dog likes to swim. Another dog doesn't. Okay. But what Tallick is really teaching me right now is that I've gotten into this habit of playing because my last three dogs have liked to play in a certain way that he does not like. So, he doesn't like to be played with in tugging the way they do. So, I've really had to stop myself because I've been doing it. I've been playing with dogs this way for 10 years. And it's like I've really had to stop myself and go, what do you like? How do you want to be touched? How do you want to be touched in the middle of a training session? Or maybe you don't want to be. So, really start to figure out the dog in front of you instead of the dog you had before, the dog you still have, or your older dog, or the dog you think you should have. I just think it's really important to really take that dog as an individual and figure out what that dog likes, its likes and desires. And that will make training so much easier because you'll know what that individual dog likes. Yeah. So, that's what I'm really learning right now with my younger dog. So, and it's neat. I mean, so, I can always understand, like, that they're going to be different in training. So, like, Talik taught me to work through a dog that gets sticky and stocky with a toy. Okay? Which is, I don't want to say it's easy for me, but it's easy for me to understand that in behavior skills, they will act differently. I think what Talik is teaching me is that even in toy skills, which I am, like, the toy skill woman. Okay? Even my, even I had a lot to learn with how he specifically wanted to be played with. And so, that's the reinforcers. So, that's, and the reinforcement drives behavior. So, it's really, really important that we understand what the dog actually likes. Yeah. So, funny. I think, I'm trying to remember who I interviewed last, but whoever I talked to last, we were talking about at the end, the fact that often the thing that we're relearning is the thing that we teach. Oh, totally. It's like, this is the thing that I teach other people. It's the thing that I'm obsessed with. It's the thing that I'm most interested with. And yet, it's still the thing that I'm shoemakers kidding, right? Like, I need to go back and, like, relearn myself and re-kind of work through with my own critters. Totally. And, you know, I didn't video hardly any of Talik's toy skills because he learned them so quickly. And I already had the stuff made, you know, so I wasn't, I didn't want to video everything. So, I didn't video.

And now, I'm like, I should have videoed that stuff because I could have told you, you know, if I treated myself like a client, I could have been like, hmm, maybe he doesn't like it when you touch him when you're tugging. You know, like, things like that. Like, now I'm like, he really doesn't like it. So, it's just, yeah, if I treated myself like a student, I would have picked up on it much quicker. And he's so driven. And he's such a nice dog. He's so nice in his behaviors that it, that also, he gave me a lot for free that I didn't realize that my other, that onesie would not have given me in free. He wasn't very clear in his, I don't like that. So, yeah. Yeah. So, it's really neat because dogs are all individuals. And sometimes we need reminding of that. It seems like so, of course. But, yes, we need reminding. Yeah. Or I did. So. We all do. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Shaden. Thank you so much for allowing me to talk about my own dogs and my own training. So, thank you. Yeah. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Petra Ford to talk about conditioning for competition. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by benson.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Bye. Thank you.