Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 12: 2x PSA 3 핸들러 Janet Edwards

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um and i do the same like in my school uh when i teach like one of my last modules in the courses you have to try a dog sport no matter which dog sport but you have to try it just so just so you keep yourself in check and and and your head doesn't just get bigger and bigger and just because you're training thousands of dogs and there is no checkpoint to see are you how good you are at it you know and it's uh you know going into any sport and doing well you do well one time and then five times you don't do well and and your ego crashes and and you learn how to bounce back you need start to think what you need to adjust and it's such a learning uh experience um but yeah that was a i don't know i i really think that if if there is anything mandatory i'm not about creating any policies and laws of certifications of right dog trainers because i think that gets too complicated way too complicated and who is to decide yeah exactly you know as long as we have ethics and morals and and you know we are considerate and the welfare is there um you know but but what i was saying is when you when um we have the the a pet dog trainer to like somehow to force themselves to to do something take a dog train it into anything like rally akc fly ball i mean anything but go in and do something where your abilities and your knowledge gets tested because i think that's how we all grow and that's where you you're like oh what are you doing with that dog i like what's going on there how it will make you a better trainer and it will like you said put you in check and you know some people don't want to be put in check but if you want to be better you have to be put in check have to accept that you're gonna fail at some things you're not always gonna look good right yeah it's uh i think many don't dare to either either don't dare to get exposed afraid not realizing that getting exposed i don't think even exposed is the right word because it's you know it's we are who we are we train dogs you know i mean i guess it could be goes if you're trying to make yourself look good on social media but then you're exposing that you're really not a good tree you're not that great and then and then it's a toss-up do you do you decide to really grow your skills and knowledge or keep building that kind of fake facade and and fool people around it's easier to build the fake facade right like it's easier to build that true nowadays there's it's a it's a model that you know it's not hard to do so how many times you've won the PSA 3 um i've taken two dogs to a PSA 3 right and you guys bring breed your dogs or how how is that

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yeah so actually my first dog um is the father of my second PSA 3 dog so now i have the next generation you know really the grand yeah of my first dog and now i'll be my plan is to show them in the twos next year i was too busy this year to i hoped to get them on the field this year but traveling and seminars you know your training time kind of gets cut so next year um i'm hoping to put them on the field in the twos and then you know goal is always you know try to get them as far as i can so hopefully you know you're gonna be educating me along the way here on PSA yep i i'm you know i mean i follow as much as i have time to and and it's definitely again just like any any especially a protection dog sport it's it's always of interest to me um but yeah i as we were talking at the conference i for whatever reason anytime there is something going on locally here i'm either having a class or i'm not in the country right but there is some trial coming up i think in shortly here in tampa um so i think that might be the second time i i did go to one of them and and this will be another opportunity that i'm gonna do um the level two is what you guys call the professional or something right it's like a off leash it's more it's a but it's there is a big jump right we'll call it an upper level an upper level because it is once you're you know the twos and threes are really you know what we would call the upper levels of the sport right that so like between the one and two the it's a it is a pretty decent jump yeah right yep and then level trees really just off the roof restyling and and or or am i right it takes a ton of time like in dedication you have to be very stubborn you know to kind of complete that let's complete that training you know like when i i used to live in california in the 90s and um at the time that just kind of side story that's interesting but i don't even remember i'm horrible with remembering names but there was um there were two organizations at the time before psa there was like something pro canine or so i some kind of very generic name and then there was another one national association police protection dogs or something like this it was they were both kind in california doing a lot of stuff and i just came from belgium and and my my thing was really like my my favorite dog sport at the time was belgium ring and of course early 90s nobody was doing nothing at least in california where i was um so that was interesting and there was uh there were some police trials that were happening western i don't know conferences some something there was a guy um

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um arthur keith he had a he was a doing a lot of cool stuff at the time like he really brought up the ideas of working with multiple decoys and redirecting and and you know it wasn't perfect i mean we're talking in an infancy of of this kind of ideas of of protection type sports but then what happened was all of those groups that tried to push those sports they somehow you know exist for one year two years maximum three and they just fold up and then another one and and that kind of was like man that's disappointing right and then i heard psa was kind of starting and i'm like okay that's gonna be another one that's gonna go for for another two years and it's gonna fold up but you guys made it and and you're certainly uh you know a protection dog sport that's here to stay and it's obviously the program is growing the membership is growing and it's becoming very interesting to people so popularity is there and and i don't know i mean it's what 25 whatever i mean it's a long time now something do you want yeah over 20 years old now so how how do you how do you see psa compared to the other protection sports i think it's like and nowadays i think it's i want to say cleaner you know cleaner is is maybe the bright word but that's like the word that i'm thinking of it's a it's cleaner to not compared to the other sports but compared to what it was when it was new right now there's cleaner concepts there's cleaning there's cleaner performances on the field right all of those things are getting sorted out yes that was that's a very good point that's very interesting point because that was one of my biggest concerns with all this uh sports that are trying to pick up and it's normal in infancy stages to you know you you experiment and you try something it's not where it doesn't doesn't work or we have to modify but along the way if you had somebody super dedicated and you gets a puppy and starts to train a puppy and then the program changes on them a little bit too too drastic you know yeah and i think that's like one of the things that i hear from the other sports is that it's it's hard to know how to train for psa right so i think that's less the case because it did get cleaned up it is more organized right it's more structured and it will continue to aim to that direction in my experience right it will also continue to change evolve is you know really a better word to continue to challenge trainers so part of the part of the sport is to challenge your training so when training gets better to meet it and this can

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be very frustrating for some people when your training gets better and you know how to meet that level of training and then it evolves and says now that's not good enough and now you have to even get better that's frustrating for a lot of people i like it because that's the whole point of me doing it right sometimes i hate it you know sometimes it is a love hate thing um so i think that's one of the things in psa is like you have to understand that's it's going to happen right this is what this sport is um and if you want something to stay there you know more routine then you know another sports kind of is definitely is for you so obviously that's you know some people you know and i i think in the early days i mean i wasn't obviously i got my first dog i was such a newbie in the early days right so i'm just going out there training and trying to like i'm doing my best to make it through right having having fun with your dog you know back then it there was a lot of i want the strongest dog and bite work right we want to we want these dogs to take a ton of pressure and we want control but there's less um plus what ipo and schudson like right you know like the power and the obedience and you know the dog's looking happy out there right so yeah there was some of that right um and now it that's where it's getting cleaner and progressing right our training methods are getting better it's not just about yes it still is about like we want really strong dogs that can handle a lot environmentally right um however it's that's not the sole purpose of the sport right we want overall better training how do we still use all these better training methods we're all learning how to do it better make our dogs faster while still having as much fun as possible right they want we want them to enjoy it as much as we as much as we do so that's also progressing um in that sense so i think that's helped improve the sport and bring a lot more people in and bring a lot more interest um so the surprise scenarios i think keep it a little bit more difficult yes you gotta tell me a lot i need to hear a lot about the surprise scenarios it's always uh like a highlight of it some for some reason right i've seen mondial ring i actually got to see mondial ring in belgium um but i don't know you know in-depth scoring setup those types of things to really give a good comparison but because of that you know sometimes the perception is hard you know from the outside to see like what are judges are there inconsistencies are they setting people up to fail right are all these things happening um

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and it you know sometimes surprise scenarios don't play out the way the judges anticipate just like when we do training sessions you know we aim for something to work a certain way and we're really trying to set it up to do that and we think it you know might be it's an easy setup and you're like what the heck it did not like it did not pan out so it you have to be willing to accept that sometimes it's it things don't play out sometimes decoys make mistakes because when you have surprise scenarios you know the dog's not practicing it the decoys aren't practicing it right so there are there is some level of you know error there for sure but it's as you say like mondi ring can totally level one or two exercise can be way harder even though it's set up to be much simpler it can be way harder than level three so i'd imagine there's some similarities with the surprise factors with that your surprise scenarios are they only on the level three or are they in the other level so level two is when you introduce one of your protection scenarios is a surprise written by the judge you know it will be it should be written to follow within the same skill level as level twos ask for right um so that's really like level one you say surprise uh there's one perception scenario that's a surprise but there's it's a possibility of these five pre-written ones but they're pre-written surprise scenarios you just don't know until trying when it will happen yeah so there's like that's where it's really kind of introduced then level two the only written part complete surprise of level two is one protection scenario you know now your distractions that the decoys carry around um within limits you know there are limitations on what they can have like during your obedience and during some of the other protection routines like those are that's where the judges have a little bit of play like you know the decoys can behave a little bit differently um you know you can do a recall um you know the recall portion the handler can be in a chair you know laying on the ground you know so like there are some variables that the judge can play with but it's the same routine it's you know the the routine is the same right like at some point or another like the same thing's happening are the exercise like in some rotation or are they back like uh it used to be so this is likely the involvement level two obedience was exactly the same routine like you start here you do your figure eight you halt you're like you know down your dog you

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leave your dogs exactly the same routine um at one point right so like they made it at first it was a little too crazy um so my first dog that i did the level two with the whole obedience was a surprise like it was i was like i mean i went from a routine to everything surprise it was hard so um but now you know for years it's been the same so now like with the involvement you know it's like you can start at a different starting point a different cone on that level too but you're still doing the exact same things right so maybe there's one portion that's like you leave your dog in a stay and recall them over obstacles yeah you could start there versus starting where the figure eight is right but you're still going to do the exact same things it's just the order of what you do might change up a little bit so that's i mean that's the element of surprise in the level twos so introduces something but it's literally the same routine it's just you know you're always leaving your dog and recalling over two obstacles always right you're always going to have to leave your dog and do a drop on recall you're always going to have to do a retrieve you're always going to have to do a the the food refusal after the figure eight you're all you know like you're always going to do the change of paces after the figure eight you know you're always going to have to do so all of those things are exactly the same it's always going to be two decoys on the field right um so there's some more of it is very much the same but there's just some elements of surprise and how like let's say for the high level like let's say level three surprise how who who makes it who is it the judge on the field or does the judge consult with like the judges committee or whatever so the judge writes the scenario if it's a newer judge it has to be written and approved i mean reviewed and approved by a senior judge okay so when the newer judges are writing things maybe they don't you know they're not scoring things appropriately or you see things where you're like well you know what's your goal for this because that's not really practical um those are the you know that's how it's done so it's pretty much ultimately to the discretion of an experienced judge to come up with yeah there is like there's a judge's handbook with guidelines right it's still going to be a list of these skills that will be included right so it's still you know okay you know you're you could do a drop down on recall or sit on recall you can now in the level

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threes it might be sending out over obstacles versus recalling over obstacles right now your retrieve is going to be with an obstacle involved not just straight in the flat ground so there there's a list of things that will it's still going to see the food refusal or at least it has to be so many of off of that list have to be included you know there's some things you might not see but so the skills are there's still a guideline of now you ask for these skills right and these skills are still scored similar to every level so say you know i mean an obstacle there are two three points in the other levels you can't make a 10 point jump right it wouldn't be practical because that's not how it you know you still there still is some it doesn't seem like it from sometimes if you're not involved but there's still some level of consistency and what the sport is asking for and how the scoring is done right got it you're healing the same amount of points right are the jumps kind of like green style where you can increase for more points or or no they're just 36 inches max okay you just do uh it can be an open like you know more of the open jump window jump and in your i'm assuming you you really don't care if the dog is touching because sometimes they're jumping with some bucket or who knows what and whatever or does that matter this is the thing where like you know because you're creating some different variables right the purpose of the variables is you know test the dog's generalization right how well do they know these skills right if you change the variable can they still be sure what you're asking it's also very much testing the handler right some people forget that or they don't realize it is testing the handler right so you need to make that call like yes things cannot be performed at the ideal picture that they were in the ones right your healing may have a little bit more hiccups because there's more going on right um if i'm asking a dog you know a handler to recall the dog but they're on crutches i can't expect the same picture as i do when they don't have crutches right so you're you're scoring it with the exception of like the dog can't get in position so i can't i'm not going to dock you if they're as close as they can get in straight you know if they come in front of you you're going to lose a little bit more so there's expectations where the handler high it makes the handler think if you add this variable yeah if there's a variable over a jump that may may cause the dog to hit it

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the judge should not fault the dog for that okay if it's a straight open jump yeah no the dog should not hit the jump you know just like any other sport if your dog's just going over a jump and there's nothing to get in the way of its normal jumping then you know it should jump it should clear a 36-inch jump you know it should know how to clear that yeah because it i mean in some ways and i'm just thinking out of all the programs you know it's it's good to to be able to see the physical abilities of a dog the skill of jumping without the effort and confusion of everything else you know sometimes like like that's where i like the the ring sport jumps because they they maintain the health of the the breeds you know like like you you either jump or you don't and we're not gonna go like how shoots on an ipo and igp ended up making the walls and the jumps like lower and lower and to to match up that the dogs that cannot do it just because they wanted to make the sports popular but for whatever reason psa is really popular and i don't know if it's the freestyling or it's just that the protection aspect of it and also probably you have so many more varieties of dogs that come to participate like you go to a ring sport and you have 20 malinois and maybe one shepherd and who knows one something so sometimes you know some of it is the ability you know just ability to be able to take different dogs in into the sport right i think some of it's availability i mean back with my first dog he comes from ring lines he came straight from um euro joe bertram nikki right so back in their old old lines right so he comes back from that and you know he's got ring in his background so i'm like a mondial ring was a very intriguing sport to me i became a member started kind of researching it but i mean i didn't have availability to train it right i didn't have the people doing it near me so sometimes it is that yes that's 100 percent so it's and now like psa is popping up and all these random places that other sports aren't so sometimes that's the intriguing side of it right um you know i mean they might think some aspects are cool right they look fun or look you know they it's so i think it's really just pulling for a variety of reasons right for sure some of the scenarios are you know i mean you just can open have a drink and watch some youtubes and watch dogs either pass or fail cool scenarios it's a it's a you know that that's that's the interesting part um that temptation to go man i want my dog to be able

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to do that right like when you see these level three dogs doing stuff like that draw in hopes that they're gonna have a dog that can do that you know i'm not not a lot of them stick through it to that point but you know they i i think that draws some people as well and and what you said i think it's such a important part of living in the states you know you you have to pick the sport that you have access near you otherwise and any any dog sport is expensive to do when you decide to really do it you're gonna travel there is no question about it you're gonna i mean that you we're gonna be spending money but at least your home base has to have a good coach especially if you're in the beginning stages or has a one or two good decoys that can take you somewhere it's like often people will be well i want to do this sport and i'm like where do you live and it's like well it's not gonna happen it's just not gonna happen like you're kind of like with with martial arts you may like jiu-jitsu but too bad there is a i don't know muay thai gym next to you and it's a really good gym and you make your choice but you can learn my husband does jiu-jitsu but the gym he has a nice gym but it's over an hour away so he goes he gets up at like 3 30 in the morning and leaves the house no later than four to go to like early classes you know and get there before rush out you know morning rush hour in the city and you know it's not but that's you know i mean that's one that's jiu-jitsu but dog sports it could be four hours away yes and and a lot of times you drive back and a training session didn't go well and and learning how to deal with that it's a whole different skill like sometimes i watch some of the scenarios and i get like you know i cringe a little bit when i watch the dogs and the closest that i can think of is french ring be besides just a pure street protection fight right do you how do you guys can make what how do you think over this i mean obviously you have to consider safety of the dogs because it's everybody it's everybody's dogs and you and i will be like well yeah i want to test my dog but i want to have some sense of of course you're jumping in a sport that's protection sports for sure you're taking a chance but do you how do you like when you make the the scenarios how how much when when do you draw the line to say well this is a little unsafe let's not do that one i think the trickiest part is no to what level people prepare their dog right for me it's an advantage of having dogs all the way through you know a couple

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dogs all the way through the threes or having dogs that i'm currently working i can test out some ideas in a safe manner and go uh this i know i won't ask for this right um i also obviously my dogs mean a lot to me right and i want them to not be hurt because i want them to get a three i want them to have to continue their career so if i wouldn't want my dog to do it then i absolutely wouldn't ask anybody else so in some ways like it's an easy call for me um and i i obviously it's something i really try to stick with right um there is a level i do feel there's a level of responsibility for like handlers to be like well i mean i don't i know my dog and i know they may not do this well right and i've had you know i have written scenarios and i've had handlers in the threes that bring up a concern and i'm like you know what that's really fair let's make an adjustment so there's no question like of safety you know sometimes as a handler you do have to know your dog but there's always um that opportunity you know if there's a safety concern you just ask you know and then the judges like you know i'm always really open to that's that's fair let's let's tweak it a little bit so safety is not a concern like i'm okay with that because ultimately what am i what are we looking for you know it's usually not going to affect what i'm actually trying to test the hand or handler or dog for right so those adjustments and that's my that's my next question right away now how do you guys do like let's say in igp the dog gets pressured stops engaging the decoy he gets disqualified in any of the ring sport programs they don't get disqualified they just zeroed on an exercise what do you guys do how how how does it go with psa sometimes they don't bite because they're unclear confused or confused that is that will zero that will not dq okay dog literally won't engage i mean they're going towards the they're very clear that it's a bite and then they go hit the brakes and they're like no no no no or they run right then that's a dq okay right there is um so that's where we're looking at because they are sometimes they you know obviously dogs might bite the wrong decoy right um that they're not supposed to be biting that's a zero it's not a dq but you will zero that protection exercise right um and then yeah if they just get confused um and don't engage a decoy because you know it's a directional and they just don't follow that direction right that you're gonna zero that bite right or that that portion how long does it take to get to level two if you assuming you

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have the right dog you have the knowledge and you're within a circle that helps you out it depends on training style um i think someone had shared something you had put up not that long ago about rushing dogs oh yeah that's always a a thing putting them through making them do all of these things i'm like oh my gosh i feel that so much why and you don't get the trophy for for that so it's for me i i'm guessing like you know i i feel the same as you is like i want to take my time i want my dog to really endure each level of training you know as i'm teaching them something take my time and teach them like learn each phase and enjoy the process because i want to enjoy i enjoy it i enjoy the process i'm not in a rush you know it's not a race um so i take my time there are people that are getting like threes on dogs that are like three four years old and i'm like i don't even put my dogs on the trial field and psa till they're three i mean psa puts a lot of environmental pressure on a dog i mean i want them to be mature enough to handle that right um so i and i'm not in a rush um so it depends i mean for me it's a slower process so i've had obviously you know time kind of got in my way just because of traveling and doing seminars and running the business this you know this year but um my dogs were last competing season three um they turned three years old um and they both showed at nationals last year they're litter mates so they're exactly kind of the same point and then they just turned four this year so i would you know nor on my ideal picture i would have had them in the twos at four years old and next year it'll be they'll be four turning five um so you're kind of that you know six to seven range if you can get into the threes at that point i think to me that's a really good pace yeah that's actually probably across the board for for all the protection sports it's it's very similar then that that's very similar to all of them some of the people that rush to the two you know through the ones and twos what happens is like they've rushed and their foundation isn't solid so then they fall apart for the threes that or the dog starts to really question am i good enough and once they really start questioning that then then it's very hard to bring them back and convince them that they are yeah no i mean it's one of the ways they fall apart right there's you know to me it's there's a level of stress stress um unnecessary stress put on the dogs um because of whatever eagerness or trying to match

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these videos on social media you know when i do my workshops i mean i tell people i mean and it's not reality you know i mean you see people out there because i think it's cool to heal around you know my dog's healing around all these decoys being crazy right that's not what it's about so yeah maybe to the outside you know to those people on social media but i'm like you haven't even done the p the entry level certificate you know and now you think you're like have a dog that's gonna do a three one day probably not gonna happen i know that right and i'm like here i am at that same age my dogs are like barely healing because i'm working on other things right like i work on what i think my dogs need how is it with the to to go to a national what like is there a qualification how how is that process what is there right now like i said it's as the sport grows and progresses the qualifications are going to get more strict and we're kind of getting to that point especially in the level ones um so we'll it'll probably get tightened up but right now you have to have your level you know level one which is two legs you have had to pass that competition season you have had to shown twice if you did not show twice a full routine meaning your dog can't bite in obedience and then still qualify you have to complete the routine um twice um or if you did not do that you must place in the top five at your regionals right um and then that will qualify you okay so that's i mean that's pretty how big is like membership wise how how big is the psa i don't know we're in the thousands nice and now i'm not sure in the 2000 range maybe okay easy i don't know i haven't checked membership numbers i'm like in the 500 numbers so i'm going way back yeah like the igp always struggles with that but i think igp is just not it's just not um not appealing because it's just very hard i think that's what i think getting less appealing the challenge is kind of dropping you know and the politics are getting in the way of what trainers like but um one of the good things of psa is also that it's american and and you guys decide what is okay what's not okay yeah i mean right now like the politics aren't getting in the way with the sport and the sport's not letting it bother them like we're just going to keep doing you know the sport's going to keep doing what it's doing right it's not hiding it's not you know it's like that's it is you know i mean people have said that especially some people that come over from you know igp or the older schutz in they're like i am this is one piece that's appealing like you're

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you're still going out there to test dogs and you don't really care what politics like the politicians are saying um as long as we can you know and sometimes you know in some ways that is important with the industry like you know keep doing what we're doing and don't try to hide it you know don't try to act like they're right and we're doing you know and you know tiptoe around them yeah europeans got so stuck with how how they just believe that they're gonna please the the animal rights activists and but they ultimately not gonna care and they'll be able to do what they still do and little by little they they're where they are today and and hopefully it doesn't come to the states that's like one of my biggest fears that um you know we don't need to you know it is a serious fear i mean we're all in trouble right so you know that's kind of what i think we have to kind of you know we don't know the best answer but i think the more experienced trainers have to kind of stand stay in their ground and try to you know you know save the industry as best as we can yeah needs to be explained and needs to be talked and not to like i know in germany it's ridiculous at the moment they have um and i'm sure people from germany that listen to the podcast will will agree um they they like a pet trainer in germany today they have to get certified approved by the government and to do that i don't know if you know that or no but they have to get certified approved by the government and to do that they have to get certified and in the written test to make it super simple not to go in depth but in the written test there is like a clear cut like are you positive only trainer or are you going to use any adversaries and if you don't say that positive is better that works better and that all those negative reinforcement and punishment and all this doesn't work then you don't get certified so they have no choice but to check the right boxes and once all these trainers have checked the right boxes then they they're all in this trap that there is no way out because anybody that tries to raise an opinion or question it they come back at them and say well there is all this hundreds or thousands of trainers that have proven that they can do it without and they can do it better and it's just and and hopefully we don't get to this point that's like really a a scary thing for for us and it is because i mean it's it's our it's not just our industry i mean it's our careers it's our hobbies i mean our life with our dog it's our dogs i mean what is a malinois without

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right their outlets we can give them right without the proper training all of those things and the training itself will like the the the cool thing about protection sports always is that you you learn how to deal with environment and competing reinforcers and and whatever else in a way that you can accomplish what you want without breaking the dog and that's how training grows and once we stop that you you will never know how to deal with a dog that's losing its mind on a sidewalk besides putting them on a harness and giving them prozac yeah i mean the dog won't learn how to deal with it you know i mean if you look at humans a lot you know the goal when they medicate you know because some humans i mean you know there is a right time and place for medication yes with our eyes and those types of things but usually when it's done right even for humans it's in conjunction with some type of therapy and learning to handle their stress to handle their anxiety to know how to come down bring themselves down from the stress now if they're on medication that's also kind of giving them a boost you know a push in the right direction but the goal is to get off the medication because they learn how to handle you know how to work through that and so it's the same with dogs you know i have found there's times where medication is handy um but i feel the goal should be the same that they have to learn how to deal with stress they have to learn how to come down from a highly stimulated state whether it's because of stress or drive right and know how to handle that right we have to teach them at a certain level how to do those things and you know that's they just want to ignore you know yeah it's it's very much i'm up to the point where they're not learning how to deal with anything they're just i mean to me they're mentally going crazy in the head you know it's not i can't even imagine the mental state that these dogs are in i and then yeah it's such a such a hard one this is like one of the hard things too with the i think dog trainers that are trying to work with behavior modification and veterinarian animal behaviorists are in competition unless they are force free then they are in agreement that they're gonna send the client back and forth and they're both gonna make money but any other trainer that says no i'm i can do behavior modification and the first thing that i would try to do is just to see if i can tell that dog hey don't do that do that instead which is straightforward dog training and in most cases

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it's perfectly sufficient and a dog that is locked up eight hours and you take him around the block on the walk and it's destructive you can play ball with him and fix the problem or you can put him on some medicine that has zillions of side effects now as you said there is always room for the medicine medicine but but but there is the steps and and that's again kind of the iacp um lindsey when he had his thing about the lima which it's like i don't know why we even have to talk about it because such a common sense it's like right i know i mean when we experience it and see it it is common sense like try to try whatever it is like you know if you know that that's gonna take care of the problem why do you need to wait until you exhaust all the other options knowing like knowing that they're not gonna work i mean it's it's scary but you know i think the scary part for me is they're doing it more and more for humans for kids yeah that's where it started like i had a i had really cool podcast with uh two doctors um and dr lyle dr hulk like um on on this and it was so you know like when you when you have the guts to stand up and and just talk how it is uh you you almost don't need a degree to like just common sense can tell you and and you cannot dispute it but it's a it's where we are and but we're gonna i don't know i i have hopes for the states i think we we're we're we're different i mean i think the one thing you know the benefit to a lot of people in the states are i mean they kind of stay in their ground on being told what to do right extent so if i want to have a gun i have a gun if i don't want to i don't there's some level of freedom that americans will fight for and i think it's like you know obviously i wish there was an easier way to educate the truly innocent people that you know think they're doing something good by agreeing with these thoughts on you know medicating dogs or not using these training tools or whatnot you know that you know they're being led to educate them that they're being led by false information right false science and right like they're being their emotions are being fed on you know and it's not real life and this is like you know we could give them the picture of you know that sad dog like the spca does but this is what happens when you don't use training tools right we don't have the power to do that right but so i mean our best thing is just to keep going and i do think sport is a good way to do that so when you're seeing now like a lot of these dogs in sport like how much fun they're

56:25

having like even in obedience you know like they are happy you know we in like especially they're going out on a field naked i mean there are no training tools in that moment and this dog is just powerful and happy and enjoying its time out there and its relationship with the handler is so strong you know it's like it is one way to um influence people yeah which kind of makes me you know like i'll go back to this because we i did this a good interesting point um how how do you guys judge the like do you pay attention to the mood emotions like so too much suppression to like any of that balance during the performances yeah yeah because some some sports well i mean igp i think is at the point on the verge of almost like losing their mind of you know that you like you say you're you're running and you do down out of motion and the dog downs and puts for less than a tenth of a second a year back and then it's back up and that is like there is stress and avoidance and yes there is stress and avoidance but sometimes when you when you understand your responsibilities and you want to do it you put that stress on your own it's not necessarily that somebody you're ducking for your life and there's big difference of that you put that so but um uh in like ring sports they have this general allure like overall attitude points how do how is it with the how do you guys do that more overall in psa because it is like you know the dog i mean they can do everything and you know yeah the the rapport the overall attitude of the dog is maybe a little bit more flat yeah but it's hard not to be because they have a lot to deal with when you increase i will say when you add the levels increase right they're going to be most particular in the ones because there's a lot less to work through yeah very predictable so once you get in the twos there's a little bit more leeway on that right because uh we understand now there's competing motivations it's a lot more difficult the dogs thinking a lot harder to make really good decisions and really understand what they're supposed to do level three even more so so yes like you're it there's some slack given according to how difficult this situation is so it's still you still want to look at the overall you know like if you got a dog out on the field and there's like nothing happening and they look you know terribly depressed you know and they hate their life you're going to at least consider that that okay it probably wasn't because there's so many variables going on that's kind of

59:49

where i was yeah i'll even write my level threes where you know the decoys are even out of sight and it's a plain empty field when that team comes on i want to see how they are yes about this i'll start my level three obedience sometimes with like the most boring field perfect what does this picture look like now this is when the decoys come in yeah does it does the dog enjoy working for you like where's your relationship at before they thinks it might bite right like if it's boring and the dog's like oh this you know i'm gonna like at least you know i'm not gonna sit there and be like oh my gosh you failed but i'm gonna look at that as my whole picture of what i'm looking for just like similar where you know so but this will be by by a discretion of how the judge sets it up it's not necessarily in the rules to where you have some exercise in level three that it's without the environmental and decoy pressure um you it's you you as a judge have to kind of find a place yeah and most of it the way the threes are i mean most of these dogs that don't have a relationship i mean really are going to struggle passing everything anyway right they're only going to have you know luck in certain areas um you know and that is like there are there's always some people out there that are going to have you know everything went their way that day you know that dog seems rushed that dog you know they don't seem like they've had all the really good foundation training but somehow they pulled it off right um you know just like you'll see that and i think it's but it doesn't last you're not going to see it again you're not going to see it again you're not going to see it again right so there's some overall i think this you know it kind of this that level weeds out those if you want to call them faults or weaknesses um because your relationship has to be strong no doubt right communication has to be strong um igp in that way is kind of again i think it's borderline becoming way too extreme but at the same time it makes like if you have this is one of the things i really like about and i i truly like all protection sports if not all dog sports but protection sports for sure but like in igp you have the um like if you have two equally good performances and the one is more free more free meaning emotionally you know with a nice attitude and not not not always doing it because i must because right yeah right and like i'm so scared to mess up right and and because if you as a judge if you promote that one dog you're also promoting the training of the dog and then everybody like the evolution of dog

1:03:08

training it can be put on hold because we we can say well that's how we did it 20 years ago it's working nobody nobody questions it but a dog is like there is no spark it's not like i wanted i'm dying to do this recall for you and when you when you select the the other dog you're also not selecting just the dog but you're selecting the the training that goes along um and i think that's important i think that's a very good way to to grow as dog trainers as long as we also don't go overboard which is always the hard thing yeah i mean it is the hard thing because it like okay this looks really good and now people are are meeting this training style right they're reaching it now it has you know we have to add some layer of more yeah and there it is absolute i feel an extreme to that yeah yeah there is difference between being a circus that gets insane right like positioning where you know looking at the armpit versus eye contact i mean because they think that might be you know i don't know look better or something you know it's just like there's different things people obsess over that is not that's not the training style right it's now they've taken it outside of what is a training style and they're fixating on something that may be you know a little less necessary in the big picture right not saying it's bad but it goes to like the extreme focus on these things which is kind of losing focus on the good training theories and the good training styles that have created that free dog right that dog that looks really powerful and happy and obedient and it looks very impressive and it looks like it's you know that the team is a well-oiled machine machine working together right so i mean that's my thought on it it does you know something's definitely got extreme do you like selecting puppies i would be guessing there is not like a good puppy will be a good puppy to do sports that's my my take on like i don't i and again like i i've been i mean i grew up in eastern europe so i i'm at the time there was the east german german shepherds and the russian military style training and then i moved to belgium and i got exposed to the belgium and i was actually still there when the french the dutch and the belgians were fighting i'm jealous of that i mean felt if i could just have had some experience on the belgium ring i would just i mean you still can it's it's kind of almost an art that's starts to the the like the young people are not so into it anymore for who knows what reason yeah i i mean i think the belgium ring is

1:06:32

yeah i mean you know i don't know i to my thing that's like the hard one to beat i think it's a i think we have good malinois because of that and and i will be so concerned when they go away i agree i go back to lines that i like it's always the doggone belgium ring dogs they i end up being attracted to you know i at least i'm i think that if there is a good puppy it will be good puppy in any sport i don't believe the like oh it's a french ring puppy it comes from french ring lines or it comes from igp lines therefore it's not going to be good in psa or in like i i really think that a puppy that is confident and comes out is i'm ready but well how do you think i think so i mean i think maybe the exception to that is like you're hunting that for to get that precision tracking and you know stuff like that in your igp um i it seems like some dogs struggle with that and i don't have experience i mean obviously i did a lot of detection you know some hard surface tracking but not sport i don't have experience with sport tracking so i can't really speak on it but i know some people can have these malinois that really excel at obedience and bite work and you know would probably excel at any sport but they really struggle with tracking you know the methodical precision tracking that sport asked for so maybe that you know might be the exception um outside of that generally speaking yes right i think that's a good dog is a good dog and like you know i mean especially you look at psa i mean dogs came from all kinds of backgrounds right right so i mean it wasn't like now yeah there's dogs that are like in psa that got bred and they're kind of you know developing like psa lines right and kind of my dogs are along that not that i was aiming for that specifically it just it just happens yeah but that's a normal progression right i mean that's it's not like you know i mean they didn't have they there was no such thing as dogs coming from this a certain background um so yeah i mean i think if it's a good dog it's a good dog right there's going to be some that are out of any line you know you just think of breedings right when you do these breedings you're going to have some middle of the road dogs you're going to have that you might have that one dog that not many people can handle it is a little too much dog right um same line it doesn't matter what line well it's the same leader you're gonna have that no matter what so i think that's those are the the variables you're gonna have within dogs and puppies and you don't always know when they're young i mean you get better at kind of maybe forcing

1:09:43

some of those things but um so i think those are the variables but not necessarily you know so if you have a dog that's a little much maybe they're easier to do for entering with whether you know psa is not you know ask them a lot more to remain control under that high level of stress and you know decoy pressure maybe you know but maybe you know some dogs are going to be harder to do you know unsuited muzzle attacks with doesn't mean it's impossible maybe naturally that dog's a little harder to teach one thing or another but i mean i think that's still it boils down to that's the element of sport and dogs none of them are perfect right you know my best dog you know my first dog won nationals three times he won at every level in psa no dog has done that was he perfect was he like the superman of all dogs no he wasn't and it wouldn't be interesting if he was it wouldn't be interesting because there is no challenge to to get there they all have flaws they're all gonna fail doesn't mean he stepped out on the field and like did perfect every time and training is perfect absolutely not it's just we trained and were able to decipher through variables you know as a team to get there right so i mean yeah i think it's ultimately the dog is the dog and if don't matter what sport you're gonna do it's if it's a good dog it's gonna be capable you know whatever you're asking you know sometimes then it just really boils into training you know how many people watch dogs that really are good dogs right i mean i've got a dog now that reason i have two you know two litter mates i kept one because my current my dog at the time was retiring and i'm like well i can't be without a dog so might as well keep one first time i ever kept a dog out of a breeding but the timing was right for me and then one came back and you know it's a nice dog and i'm like well i can't let this dog go now right it's i'm like this is a really nice female that's challenging definitely challenging right but i like the challenge and it wasn't had nothing to do with the dog's capability of doing the sport it was the challenge of training right you had to be open-minded and really be aware of the dog you're working and know the best approach so you know i think that's you know so sometimes it really genetics only goes so far and if they have them yeah you get good training behind it they're they're gonna do well in whatever avenue you put them in that's how i i i'm smiling listening to you because i i have my like pretty much besides my very first dog which i brought with me as i moved from belgium to the

1:13:01

states all of them really were somebody else's dogs from my breeding but at six months or 10 months or a year and a half old they were not good for the person and they came back and i ended up winning championships and and doing great things with them every single one like every single one like i have my very first dog who is now here and two months old and i've been doing this since like 89 i've been breeding dogs this is my the first dog and i'm like i need to select my own dog like i want to have the one i want but having said that and i love him he's definitely i i know i mean i you know knowing my lines i know what to select i know what to look for it's it's very straightforward but i have a female just like you do that just came back and it's six months old and it's full of herself i mean it's full of herself and like this super cool thing you know like i think a classic malina trait of being extremely affectionate and in tune with you but then it's like you touch her in the wrong way and and i'm so she's here now i don't know what i'm gonna do but she's here yeah i mean that's what like you know obviously i took this dog in and my goal was just to learn her and figure out the best avenue right you do that's what you do as a breeder right but i'm like doggone it if you like i like you too much and really she's you know her father was the last this my previous dog that i got a psa3 with and he was a lot of dog a lot of dog but he stepped on that field and it didn't matter what our score was everybody remembered that dog he was powerful and you know like his life was go hard or go home that's his motto like that was it and everybody's gonna remember that dog the decoys are like no matter how much experience they have their heart rates going up when this dog's coming down the field right so and he came back to me at two years old he two years old i got the dog right and you know boom here we go like and this female that came back is a lot like him you know very much her father's daughter and obviously i have an emotional attachment to him and that's i like that dog you know he was a lot of dog to reel in but man like that's that's her she's a lot you know how common is to have females in the sport um it's more and more common now um and i don't actually like female handling females i don't like them to work i am not i've always been i just jive with the males like that's just me that's that's common that's common like i yeah i that that's not a surprise really but uh malinois are still

1:16:25

predominant or or yeah definitely i mean you see a good bit and you'll see you know dogs on the podiums that aren't malinois but for the longevity of the sport i mean malinois are still predominant the endurance of the malinois is just different yeah it's endurance the physical aspect you know obviously the drive the mentality there's a lot of pieces you know on and part of it it's like maybe this is weird you know or odd thinking but you know there's one thing about a malinois i will say it's like attractive to the trainers that want the challenge they're attractive to the trainers that want to do a really good job because malinois will tell you when you're doing it wrong like i mean they're coming up at you or they're shutting down or they're getting work you know like they're where they you know i mean people can say like my word it is they're more emotional but they're um so i mean i think that's they make you train well yes they definitely make you train well definitely it's one tiny piece of it but it's their capabilities man i mean there's something melanois they're gonna be able to do you know i mean sometimes i even question i'm sure we all do like why do i have you with some days you know but really we can't not have them yes because when they go on the field okay now i know why and even when you're training on most days i mean they're still impressive how often do you train like when you like just not preparing for a competition but just maintaining or or like how how often do you do you know it's probably one of the hardest questions to answer because you're ultimately you know like you know i talked about it's when you're involved in training for a long time you do more you know when you're traveling for you're doing seminars you're doing workshops you're running a business as well right now it's not like you just said you can't go i train boom boom boom boom boom it's not reality i have a home i have a child that has school activity i mean i have there's so many things going on so to me it's i'm always doing something it doesn't matter if it's a skill or relationship stuff with the dog whether you know sometimes it's having fun but kind of you know i'm always doing something except when i'm traveling and i'm not taking care of my dogs but there's there's some aspect of you're always reading your dog when you're out walking them yeah very rarely am i just sitting on my phone you know like while they're doing their thing i'm watching their behavior and watching this can i do can i pop something in can i i have some type of interaction

1:19:30

with my dog that you know is somehow building them our relationship their mind their thought process make them problem solve randomly you know and they're just out on a walk you know i don't know they're just like i might take them you know to like a hike or something just like run around and be a dog right right and but in that time i might throw a little something in there that's just make them you know um so that's kind of like my thought process yeah similar it's kind of it's when you have sport dogs that you want to be competitive with i feel like you're kind of always thinking about something no question you know like you're always you know getting and people ask because of psa and level three like how i come up with scenario like how do i write level threes because sometimes you're like how do you come up with this stuff which is i which is also a question i meant to ask and never did especially when you said that you you not that familiar with the belgian ring and the mondia ring and they're they're like a such a source for ideas like even even when you see something and you're like oh i can take this to a totally different place and so how do you come up with the how do you come up with ideas just from training times and you're like oh let's do that one training training i mean even watching you know trials being at trials watching dogs but a lot of it's my training right i think how can i challenge my dog how can i oh like what's a new element i can put in here right um and sometimes the you see your dog struggle with something that you thought was going to be easy okay now this is an idea um because i i think the more you know like when i have a lot of experience i can write level three stuff yes it's going to have a lot of pieces but it's really about testing skill and setting things up strategically it's not it shouldn't be chaos right there's going to be a lot of movements and a lot of distraction but really when you're testing elements and skills and handler relationships and handler problem solving and how as a team do they work through this it's it's more strategic right yes and when you train you understand that strategy right so you can write some things and say oh you know let me piece things together in this order and see how the team takes it right you know sometimes things are just written where they do seem impossible right but if you know psa and you're in the threes you should know the sport if you're at that level right the judge is testing you how are

1:22:47

you going to handle the situation yeah yeah yeah yeah like how are you going to problem solve with your dog through this and you're going to be like when i do that i'm scoring that accordingly like i will let the handler get creative and i will reward that that the sport kind of rewards handlers working with their dog and knowing where their dog's strengths are right like oh my dog's strong here so i'm going to take this avenue to get through it right i'm going to sacrifice points on this area because my dog sucks at it and yeah no but that's the that's how competition you have to understand the rules and the points and you know where you make them and where you it's okay to lose those so you know i mean i even through my own struggles during training sessions where maybe i've failed my dog i'm like hey this made me think as a handler you know can give me an idea of making a handler make a decision in a scenario right so that it's really i mean a lot of it is just training and spending time with my dogs but it's like it is sometimes random when i'm like you know driving and i'm like randomly think of what some training sessions for my dogs it just pops in your head what else right yeah i mean that's that's how things happen i'm like oh wait i could put this in a scenario too i should see how my dog does this right like how can i test my own dog and my own training so it's not like and i now with iphones compared to back in the day you know like i can just put notes like it's for me it's notes for scenarios but when you have ideas you just jot it down and you're like how do i how do i want to get here let's say you do a level three or level two scenario and there is the obedience does that always do you always have to include the four decoys or is it the number no so in level three obedience you can have up to four no more than 40 degrees right because i like sometimes i watch it and i'm again like i mean i train dogs and when you when you understand the once the dog understands the concept and when they start to when they're really comfortable understanding the concept and they see the decoys around them they're like yeah i feel at home i know what to do i know what you're trying to do but i know my job and data data right and so what like has any time been scenarios where the decoys don't show up or show up or show up very late and just kind of walk up or walk one person in the distance to where the dog is like oh maybe it's a bite extra like do you guys play with that yeah no absolutely so it's and really it's kind of like because i really feel that once the dog is there

1:25:57

and that goes for belgian and mondi ring as well like there is that generalization discrimination interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact right and it's like if they're neutral if you can heal around four screaming decoys i mean why can't you heal around 10. right ultimately right so and so to kind of trigger a dog at that point it's almost the one decoy that kind of shows up over there yeah so i mean decoys are huge because some dogs the little prey movements get them yeah some dogs okay it's like i'm gonna kind of stare you down a little bit or move a little slower and then that dog is like oh you're moving a little different like right you're the one i should bite so yeah the decoys um will absolutely play a part in not just running around screaming right i mean it's like and i you that's the thing is like you see all these social media posts of people doing that healing with dogs yes because they i mean obviously when you that's what attracts i think it's a good thing it's a good thing you're like okay that's cool but i mean like it's whether what else can your dog do like that's my thought i'm like okay yeah that's yeah that's a piece of the sport but that's not how it should be played out right so that's why i was like i do obedience sometimes it's quiet field but when it goes from quiet to boom that environment changes that's or it's an inconsistent picture how do you problem solve through that right um you know i mean it's very common to throw um what might look like a protection scenario from level one or two and grow that in your obedience portion of the three but it's not a bite right so i mean there's like some variables in there but a lot of it is like you just want to change you know lay out some elements that maybe that team didn't never got to see or practice in that particular order or context and how do they problem solve through that right because all dogs are going to have weaknesses right i know my first dog had you know some injuries so i couldn't practice jumps as much right i wanted to kind of give them more longevity so i mean i set up either really short ones or you know directionals but i you know so i knew i probably would lose jump points in some context because he may blow a jump right but it is what it is right so it's like you're always but i mean if my dog can't do a jump it should not fail you know like it's going to decrease our score but it shouldn't fail us if he does everything else well yeah right so they're all going to have weaknesses you know like

1:29:09

sometimes a call off is a weakness sometimes you know and obstacles are weaknesses sometimes certain you know distractions or how is training overall like do you do you find that there is a few different styles of training or it's pretty uniform everybody very similar styles yeah they are that's good i actually like that because that's that's what makes dog sports interesting to me um if everybody trains the same way and we all have the same dog they're just kind of we don't evolve so you know some are consistently successful with their training style which may be completely different than my training style okay and you know i mean there's two ways to get there yes i mean it's just like the same thing sports or sports i mean sometimes you choose it because that's what's available or you know i mean obviously it was available but i had good mentorship if i could learn about the sport under jerry bradshaw then like it gives me an advantage right so why would i not soak up some knowledge there because that's you know um it's pretty amazing that he he pulled that off like really because it's just not easy to one day wake up and say i'm gonna i'm gonna start a whole new dog sport and 20 something years later it's actually you know more than reality yeah i mean it was i mean i admire him and i appreciate it because obviously it's given me an avenue to these things um you know and it's yeah i mean you know but you don't have to like the same training style you don't have to like the same sport do you have any any people kind of totally force-free trying to do it or no a couple i believe there's one girl now in california that's doing no training equipment um there was a girl um i did a workshop years ago up in calgary um so she was yeah she didn't use any um prong collars or e-collars i i'm totally would encourage it too it just don't don't make me don't make me not to use it if i feel that i need to and i feel that it's better but if you want to give it a try i'll be watching because if i can see something cool i'll take it too you know like so it's very good yeah that's that was my take on it i'm like this is fun you know i mean cool i'm like i'm not gonna say well you're not probably ever gonna get anywhere because you're not doing it no i mean you i know you understand the risks like i can tell you're a good trainer you've got an awesome relationship with your dog like cool like i don't see how far it goes i think we all want to see it making me think of ideas yes on how to set up some training exercises push the dog yet not use

1:32:28

a prong collar knee collar right use her style of training so it you know to me it was kind of enjoyable to see the challenge and then it was like another year or so later she went out and she got her level one they did had a really nice showing um you know i haven't seen her past that level but right super cool right and it's like i think trainers have to be open to that you know sometimes there are some styles of training i just can't wrap my head around and why everybody wants to do it right but i'm friends with some people that you know what i mean like you're just like that's fine it's like i can't wrap my head around it and it's i just can't it's not my cup of tea but like hey i it's great let's all still train dogs and let's compete because we're still trying to do the best we can and you know i think that's the same with sports i mean some people are so like they bicker so much about the differences in sports and this one's better and that one's better they're all really great in their own way honestly and it's like would i dabble in the other ones probably if i had access but i'm so it takes so much time to build a psa3 dog i don't have time but it's not because i think any of them are bad or you know they all have their challenges we're all competing against the sport in some fashion um you know so i'm like i think you need to respect you know each other is whatever we're doing um as long as we're the dogs well taken care of we're not you know like the dogs in good spirits the dog like we're still thinking of what's best for the dog um and we're showing some improvements you know or accomplishments with it you know we can stand behind it to a degree right yeah 100 that's that's the that's the only way i if anything to add to that is uh it's like a fine line like sometimes i i put myself in situations because i speak but when i speak i don't mean you know like i don't have that kind of ill will that people think i just like if i don't like a training something or some piece in a sport and i say i don't like it i think we we gotta accept that as okay well you don't like it but it's not like it's not a war i'm not declaring a war you know like i'm still respecting i still appreciating it just i think we should be able to say well yeah i i don't like that and and and end it right there right absolutely because it's like to me it's exhausting to worry about like actually getting emotional behind it but i can bash something of another sport if i want to and and a fun you know like a light-hearted note sense i mean

1:35:44

you know it's my husband and i both joke about it we're not super serious but like you know we'll joke about duchies we're like well you know it does have stripes you know i mean like do we really hate duchies are we gonna like tell anybody not to get one no but we will joke about it you know and it could always be twisted to oh my gosh they hate this and they hate that yes and it's ultimately i don't take offense to it because i don't care you know like you don't have to like what i like you know i mean we make it to a restaurant and you hate that type of food perfectly okay exactly do i not like you because of that i mean there's things my own husband hates that like i like or vice versa like and i married the guy so obviously i don't like hate him as a person so you can hate certain things or really dislike certain things about a sport or a training method it doesn't mean you dislike the person or the whole like everything as a whole my friends would always try to get me to play soccer i played softball that was my sport you know i started when i was five i paid college right so like but we were friends and i'm like i'm not gonna just run back and forth on a field and kick a ball that's so dumb right like do do i really think soccer is dumb no but i was gonna argue why i was still gonna play softball and why i liked it better right did we not like just oh did we stop being friends because i made fun of their soccer no we didn't we always stayed friends through school right so because they knew it wasn't personal it just was my thing right most dog sports that i kind of know more about regardless of the sport there is the competitiveness turns into the groupie and the clicks and the fights in between how how is bsa is it any different or is it still the same dog training i would say it's almost obviously the sport grows you'll probably see a little more of it um at first it was kind of the sport was so new and everyone is figuring it out that everybody just cheered for everybody if you make it through kind of thing right um but yeah there definitely is and people it's people are people they take losing so personal sometimes or failing so personal that it you know it just becomes so much more than what it really is um and it's it is hard to fail i mean i i was there i was i was a rookie once and took things to heart um and you know usually i was more mad at myself than anybody else but you know and there's people that direct it it's because of the decoy because of the judge because of you know like i was set up to fail you don't like me you like

1:38:58

i'm like i don't even know you like but it's so yeah i mean i think that's just always it's kind of unavoidable i think there is pros and cons because otherwise we it's kind of in some ways it's also cool because like well our group we are training this way and we feel that our training is better than yours and even as i'm saying that if i'm saying it to somebody that's going to create a conflict already but at the same time it goes without saying right because and and it's nothing unhealthy it's nothing wrong with that because you know where you're testing your skills you want to improve and then you have to see where you stand with everybody else and it's a i think it's a good thing until it gets to this place as to where you're just kind of trying to screw each other in the wrong ways exactly and it's like i mean there's i would say that's the one thing that that will get me upset and that will start pushing my buttons is poor sportsmanship right you come out here with the wrong attitude towards your dog i don't care if it's just your dog like uh-uh i'm not gonna see you get angry at your dog for failing i'm gonna start to lose respect for you right um you failed your dog ultimately right your dog wasn't on that day whatever the case is don't take it out on your dog don't and then you know like but same with other people don't have don't disrespect people that have accomplished things well you know if you're gonna start disrespecting people that have proven themselves or you're gonna start having just poor sportsmanship overall yeah i start like you know that bothers me um and you know those are the people you don't really root for and it sometimes it sucks because you're like man they're really really good trainers but i just really hate their attitude like and it's kind of under my skin so honestly like i don't want to see them succeed as much as the person that just is out there with a good attitude right um so i mean i think that's the and that it is at heart there's bad apples everywhere unfortunately and it gets under my skin but i learned to kind of i've had to learn to focus on my dogs in the sport and just like hey if i'm having fun with my dogs and i'm seeing improvement every time we come out on the field or you know things are going things put together well i'm happy for the you know and sometimes it's you know as a trainer or competitor it's success with that particular dog right yes and it's not you know like my female she's not easy right like that we're always going to have some struggles but man like when you go out there and

1:42:06

we're like man like the what we did i am so excited i mean no we didn't get first right right you know but like you know she or it's like what we did and where her head was from where you know all those struggles we went through i am so excited yeah sometimes it is exactly like that even like it in in any sport you know you you make a score and it's not the perfect score and and everybody's oh what happened and it's like nothing happened we actually did really good and i'm super excited like we we we maxed out it was amazing i last last year nationals and the ones i had my male and female my male won like you know so we took first my female end up fifth or something like that but man i was so ecstatic about where our performance was as a team with her and how far she has come for me that is like i mean i am ecstatic that we won but like i cannot tell you how excited i am for like this for my female right and people that are newer in the sport and kind of have the wrong mindset i think don't see that right away it takes time yeah my male like we're cleaner you know things he's a dog that's cleaner and if like if i do right as a handler we have a really good chance of winning right like i can't fail my handler experience has to come in play here and i can't screw up if i don't screw up this dog will probably be fine right um so that's a lot of pressure but at the same time it's like yeah you're i didn't discount at all the success i had you know with the female because she's not an easy dog we've had some obstacles and you know control is not her you know strong point right um i mean the decoys will probably you know tell me that she bit harder than any other dog in the level but how many how many decoys you have access at home like how is it uh it rotates a little bit over the years i mean obviously i will i am extremely fortunate that my husband is i mean yes he's got the image of the deadpool decoy but he really is an excellent decoy like i will he will build a dog very well he's good on a trial field but he can build a dog and i so far the dogs he's built for me he's tend to have that extra edge and protection and it will show so um i am extremely fortunate to have that i did not marry him for that purpose but it is a bonus yeah i i know how so we have you know and with our club and with our trainers it rotates so right now at club you know for here we'll have we have two other certified trial decoys we have decoys that we build up when you get used to kind of instructing decoys it's very helpful right so um i'll have like a good three to four decoys maybe not

1:45:25

every single training session but that i can rely on some of them are newer at foundation work some of them are um you know good you know more experienced with that than trial stuff you know that's uh i think this is a very good um um just just the way psa is set up it's a good way to get decoys in because they they may not have the skill to do some amazing stuff but they can immediately do something to help you and and decoys want to be that person that is there to help and so even as they're learning like if it's igp if you're learning you're just learning you you're of no help for for quite some time to where we with psa you you definitely have one more person in a suit and that's a good start and they know that they are already helping and and it's it's a good way to grow yeah that was cool conversation like i i had so many questions about psa i bet you know i mean i get it's one of those things that it's like you know especially for the established you know when you get established with with your other ring sports you know the belgium thing and that type of thing it's it's different and i know it's different and it's also different when you talk to you know somebody that is just kind of stepping into the sport versus somebody that's been doing it and know the sport ins and outs you know and then you can get a totally different perspective from somebody that doesn't really understand it right like i've i have quite a few people that come to my school that do psa of course and you know but no i haven't had that kind of opportunity so that was a very very cool conversation that we did well i'm glad you know that it was helpful and i really appreciate you having me and hopefully i'm really hoping our paths cross more yes yeah i um again like i anytime like i know for sure i'm going to see that a trial that's coming up i think it's it's next weekend or something yeah but these are like the times where it's not easy just like with you between the dogs at home and the training and the travel and yeah i mean i got a dog returned to me once that um was trained in french ring and had its one one was going to the two and i was like i really feel like i should just go on the field with this dog and learn and experience it but traveling to the club and making the time to do that was just like i have like every once in a while i'm like i'm gonna start again and i get to either mondial one or french ring two and and then i realize with my competitiveness i cannot just like i know i can get a title but i it's not of interest just to get a title for me

1:48:46

and then that means i need to travel and i need to invest time and money into another sport and and there is just not that much time it's it's this is it is very very hard you know you've dabbled in a lot more so i'm curious like what are you really competing in what i like about igp is the that of the roof precision and exposure of the dog to where you you feel like this needle on an open field and there is nobody and you have zero excuses to say well that's why my dog or i didn't do it it's like you just didn't do it like your excuses just go out um and the emotions howard church um and everybody now it's so modern to talk about emotions which is like but but you know like when you when you when you see a dog that you give them a command and they just go pa-pam and it's like we're just like what is next and then okay well how about that and what is next and you're like how do you do that you know so but then but then you have the belgian ring and you have this more kind of solid primitive dogs that are like okay i'm i'm not gonna heal that pretty with you and it's not because they can't like i i've all of my dogs go back to belgium like like strong belgian lines even even now i send dogs and i breathe there and and they certainly can have this animation healing and stuff but it's just not a point in the program there is a whole different objective and and then you cannot not appreciate that objective because it's like well nothing's happening he's gonna just hit and when he hits you we're gonna see how he stays there and and the decoy is not gonna do much but there will be things happening around then you have the french ring and it's like man like like i mean just decoying french ring it's it's cool and and so yeah i don't i can't i can't say one sport i like better like if you really force me i would have to go with igp obviously because that's that's what i've been doing for very long time now um and and for that particular reason because you know like we both gonna tell our dog to sit and we're gonna see who has a better report and which dog gonna perform it better in speed precision and attitude without the excuses around but you know you have again you have psa you have mondi you have you have the time well let's see how he can handle can we trick him into failing which is a whole different objective and whole different interesting part of of dog training um yeah i'm not i i can never pick uh it's one of those questions that should not shouldn't be really asked you know but we always ask them right we always ask those um but yeah i i guess also

1:52:21

the the whole point of doing the tracking and obedience and protection separately it's it's to the level that it goes into like you switch gears as a trainer you know like you do tracking and you you really it's like i'm just gonna watch you do your thing i'm not influencing you it's like and then the whole training goes around being independent just like any detection stuff you know it's like i'm gonna teach you the skill but you're on your own here do your thing show me what you know to where you get to the obedience and now it's you and i doing something together in total sync and um yeah protections always protection nothing you know we all like that part but um very hard to to pick up a sport i always like i i remember when when i came to the states in california and we we started the mondi ring like most people now that are doing i don't know but we i trained the i think the first mondi ring dog that went to the world championships at the time but it's just like uh igp is a little more like you don't need to you always need the village but you need a smaller village for igp you know like i feel that any any of the other protection sports you because just like you said you have you have your husband and he's a really good decoy but your dog needs to see somebody else moving differently looking at him differently you know and that's that's where it becomes expensive and that's when you need the time and you need to either bring the decoys or you go and and oh it's a lot it is a lot yes i agree anyway let's wrap it up thank you for doing this this was awesome i'm sure uh no question we we will see each other somewhere some dog competition we have to so again i appreciate you having me on thank you johnny take care yeah you too so have some interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact interact Thank you.