E150: 제니퍼 서머필드(Jennifer Summerfield) - 행동 약물: 모든 반려견 보호자가 알아야 할 사항

2:48

he really likes, but we haven't shown much yet. And then most recently, we have been dabbling in herding a little bit with him, which he absolutely loves, interestingly enough. So we're interested in trying to get maybe some basic titles and herding over the next couple of years if we can do that. How exciting. Very. Never a dull moment. New sport for you and new sport for him. Yes. So you're kind of in a unique role, right? As somebody who is a practicing vet, specializing in behavior, and a dog trainer, in addition, of course, to training and competing with your guys, what kind of led to that interest in behavior as a specialty? Yeah, I would say it's definitely a bit of a different perspective coming from the veterinary side of things. And just as far as the terminology goes in our field, which is kind of interesting and something that a lot of your listeners may not know. So when we say that a particular veterinarian is a specialist in something, that actually has a real specific definition. So that means that they have completed a separate residency program after vet school in their area. of specialty, which is usually about two to three years long. And then they've passed a board exam in that specialized area. So that's what makes a true behavior specialist, you know, quote unquote, or what we call a veterinary behaviorist. So what I am is a veterinarian in general practice. So I'm not a boarded specialist. But I have a strong interest in behavior and always have. And I spend a lot of my time working with behavior cases. So I kind of get to enjoy the best of both worlds, I guess, in a lot of ways. Because I do kind of enjoy the general practice side of things as well. And for me, I knew from the time I was very young that I was very interested in figuring out why animals do things, I guess. And I started in dog sports as a teenager with our family dog at the time, who was a Sheltie named Duncan. And in college, when I was trying to figure out all this career stuff, I actually considered going to graduate school for a PhD and becoming an applied animal behaviorist to kind of come at it from that angle. But then at the last minute, decided to go to vet school instead. Because I felt like that would give me kind of a broader range of options, I guess, when it came to getting a job and what kinds of things I would be qualified to do. So that's what I did. And it's been a pretty good decision so far, I would say. But I kind of layered the veterinary degree onto my pre-existing obsession with dog training, I would say, rather than the other way around.

5:29

Which is probably, even for other people who kind of are interested in, who are both a vet and very interested in behavior, it's probably most people come at it from the opposite angle where they're a vet first and then they super get into behavior. Right. I suspect that's true in a lot of cases, which is also a good way to go about it. But yeah, for me, I knew I wanted to do something with behavior. And it was just a matter of figuring out what sort of career path might let me do that, but also give me a lot of options and make sure that I was concerned about, I don't know how easy it is to get a job initially as an applied animal behavior, especially in a small town. So I thought, you know, maybe the vet thing would be a little safer. And it's been good because actually I do really enjoy the stuff I get to do as a general practice vet as well. So highly recommended career path if anybody's out there interested in going that route. You mentioned small town. Where are you located again? Yeah. I, uh, our practice is just outside Huntington, West Virginia. Okay. So not a, not a terribly, you know, a big bustling metropolis. Fair enough. So to, to look at your own, um, current dogs, would you consider those three to be, um, behaviorally pretty normal? Well, that's kind of a loaded question, isn't it? So for the most part, um, I would say, yes, I would say Remy and Clint are both pretty darn normal, well-adjusted dogs. You know, they're friendly, they're easygoing, stuff doesn't really bother them a whole lot. Um, Gatsby is my, I like to say my problem child affectionately. And he does have some issues that we've spent a lot of time working on over the years. He used to be very leash reactive to other dogs in particular. That was a big problem for us for a long time. Um, so that was a big project that we spent a lot of time working on. And he also does not have great dog-dog social skills, like even with his housemates, which is interesting. And he gets really worked up and frustrated about things really easily. So he's definitely on the far end of the bell curve, I would say, as far as that goes. And, you know, some of that stuff, like the leash reactivity, we've been able to work through really effectively, um, so that it's actually not much of a problem anymore. And, you know, some of the other things, we just have to accept that that's how he is and we work around it. So he does have to be managed pretty carefully at home, um, at least in certain situations to make sure that we don't have problems between him and the other dogs. And for sure, that's hard sometimes.

8:07

So, you know, I can very much relate to clients who have problem dogs, right? Who may not always be easy to live with. Mm-hmm. You know, you kind of, you mentioned that that was, you know, kind of a can of worms there, but. Yes. I want to dig into it a little more. So how do you draw that line kind of between figuring out what's normal, what's extreme, but maybe it doesn't require behavior meds. It's kind of, you know, like you said, in the far end of the bell curve, uh, what can probably be worked on with training and what really kind of falls into that? Well, it's time to talk behavior meds or the, you know, meds might really be able to help. Yeah, no, that's a great question. Um, it is a little bit of a sticky area and I suspect that you might get slightly different answers, um, depending on who you ask. Like, I don't think it's really super clearly defined in every case, but there are definitely some, um, some things that we can say about that. So in general, I would say that normal behavior is stuff that is typical healthy behavior for the species that we're dealing with, right? So when we're talking about a dog who is coming to see me for a consultation, I'm also going to look at what's typical for this dog's breed and age, because we know that normal behavior for a 16 week old Belgian Malinois puppy might look very different from normal behavior in a 12 year old gray hound. Right. So, and it's really important for us to remember when we're looking at behavior that just because we don't like a particular thing that our dog is doing, that does not mean it's abnormal. So if we think about things like, you know, jumping up on people to say hi or pulling on the leash or, you know, rummaging through the trash can to find scraps or running off into the woods after a deer instead of coming back when you call, those are all totally normal dog behaviors. So I would classify all of those things as training issues, meaning, you know, normal stuff that dogs do that we find annoying. Now that doesn't mean that we shouldn't do anything about them, right? There are lots of behaviors that are normal for dogs, but they might be unsafe in human society or they might just make the dog hard to live with. So it's perfectly fine for us to want to change some of those behaviors, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the dog. And that's kind of the big important point there. And so for the most part, we're not going to use medication as part of the plan for those issues unless there's something that's really extreme or unusual about them, because there's really not anything there to medicate, right?

10:43

The dog just needs to be taught some new skills. So when we do tend to think about medication as an option is when we have an actual pathological behavior issue, meaning something that is not normal, like, you know, maybe aggressive behavior that is really over the top and out of proportion to what's triggering it or anxiety that's really extreme about something that's not dangerous, you know, like a thunderstorm or being left home alone while the owner goes to work. Or something like a compulsive behavior disorder, like a dog who chases its tail constantly or gets fixated on lights or shadows to the point that they can't function anymore in their environment. So those are the types of issues where we're probably going to want to talk about meds as part of our overall treatment plan. That makes sense. And now I kind of want to highlight, first of all, that you mentioned in there, you know, what's normal for breed and age, because I think that gets overlooked a lot, just the fact that exactly like you said, a Belgian male is not going to have the exact same behaviors or definition of normal as even like a lab puppy, right? Exactly. Yeah, that's true. And then I kind of want to ask, because I know you shared previously that a lot of the time people kind of see behavior meds as this like last resort thing, right? They don't want to try them. They don't want to try them. And you shared, I think last time you ran your behavior meds webinar, that you wish people would at least consider them a little bit earlier in the process. So can you talk to that? You know, why is that? How does that kind of correlate, I guess, with what you were talking about before? Sure. Yeah, no, that's definitely true. And that is something that, you know, we talk, I talk a little bit about in the webinar, for sure. And I know I did last time around as well. So I do find that it's a really common way for people to think about medication like that, right? Like, well, I guess, you know, we might consider trying it if the problem is really bad and nothing else is working, you know, but not until then. And I feel pretty strongly that when we think about behavior meds that way, we are doing a real disservice to the dog. It's kind of like saying, you know, well, I know my dog has an infection, but, you know, I don't want to put him on an antibiotic until it gets really bad, right? Or like, well, I know my dog has hypothyroidism, but I don't want to put him on a thyroid supplement until he's lost like all of his hair, you know, and gained so much weight that he can't walk.

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So when we put it in physical terms like that, you know, we see that that doesn't make a lot of sense. But for some reason, we tend to think about it a little bit differently with behavior issues. So for me, with a behavior problem, I would much rather get meds on board from the very beginning if we can, because they can really help the rest of our plan work better, which is important. And they can also make a big difference in the dog's quality of life in the meantime, which is also really important. So the sooner we can get that process started, you know, the better that is for everyone. And I suspect that a lot of this probably ties into how we think about mental illness in general as a society, you know, which is obviously a whole other issue that we can get into. But I think there's just a tendency to feel like mental health issues aren't real in the same way that a physical illness is, you know, and that they don't deserve the same level of care. And that's just not true, you know, for humans or for dogs. So to kind of think about those two things, right? So you talked a little bit about kind of what's normal and what's extreme and what might require behavior meds and what really shouldn't. And I'm assuming there's also some gray area there. Sure, there is. So in that gray area, is it kind of sometimes, you know, let's try behavior meds and see if they work? Yeah, there can be. One of the things that's nice about our behavior meds by and large is there is normally very little downside to trying them. You know, these meds are really overwhelmingly safe. You know, none of the meds that we use regularly really have any hugely significant health risks to them. And they tend to not have a lot in the way of side effects either, which is nice. But with side effects, even if you do get something you don't like, you always have the option of stopping the medication, right? You know, so it's not anything permanent. It's just like, well, this wasn't a good choice for her. You know, so we'll stop that and try something different. So yeah, even for some of those gray area cases, a lot of times, you know, if I have a client that has a dog that's kind of in that gray area about meds, you know, then we talk about the pros and cons. And we talk about what we think, you know, might be useful about starting medication in this dog. And then sometimes we decide to give it a try. And if it helps, then great. You know, we continue it. And if we say, you know, we don't think that did much other than like make her a little sleepy,

15:27

you know, then in that case, we say, well, let's just maybe stop the meds and go in a different direction. Right. Now, I would assume that for a lot of people, you know, part of their concern is simply having this conversation with their vet. And a lot of listeners don't have the advantage of having somebody, you know, with your knowledge, your interest in the area in their immediate vicinity, right? So at their local vet clinic, for example. Right, exactly. So what is the best way to kind of open up a conversation with their vet about that possibility and what options are out there for those listeners to use? Yeah, no, that's a really good question because for sure, right? You know, there are not that many, certainly not that many veterinary behaviorists in the country. There are lots of states that don't even have one, you know. And even when we look at, you know, people like me, veterinarians who maybe are in general practice, but we're pretty knowledgeable about behavior and interested in it and willing to see behavior cases and treat them. Even vets like that can be kind of few and far between depending on where you live. As far as how to kind of, you know, approach that discussion with your vet or sort of open the topic, you know, to think about. The first thing I would say is do your vet a favor, right? And schedule a dedicated visit to talk about, you know, the behavior issue that you're concerned about. One thing that is very hard, it's even hard for me, you know, and I know a lot about behavior and I'm interested in it and I like to talk about it. Very hard for me when people come for like an annual visit and then right at the end as we're wrapping up and I'm getting ready to walk out the door, right? They go, oh, by the way, she's doing this thing where she's like, you know, breaking out of her crate and hurting herself every time I go to work. You know, what can I do about that? Because of course there's a lot we can do about that, but it's not really like a 30-second question, right? Right. So, and I find that a lot of times that's kind of how people approach it. They sort of tack it on with something else that they're there for and that makes it really hard to, you know, do a good job of addressing the problem, right? And that's going to be especially true for a veterinarian who maybe is going to have to do a little bit of research first, right? Like maybe they don't know off the top of their head what, you know, what the best medication options are for something like separation anxiety.

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I promise your vet will be very appreciative if you say, you know what, my dog has some separation anxiety issues. Let me schedule an appointment to talk about that, you know? And so schedule it ahead of time. That's what you're there for. And make sure you let the office staff know when you schedule the appointment what it is you're coming in to talk about. Because then your vet has a heads up and if they need to do a little bit of, you know, research, kind of refreshing their memory on what the options are and what they might want to talk about with you, then they have a chance to do that. I know I really appreciate that. If I have something complicated and unusual coming in, I really appreciate seeing it on the schedule and knowing, oh, that looks like something I might want to investigate a little bit before that appointment, you know? Right. So little things, but that can make a big difference to how well the appointment's going to go and how much your vet's able to help you. The other things I would say are, you know, do let your vet know what other things you're doing to address the problem. I know for a lot of veterinarians it can be frustrating for people to come in and basically want medication to just fix it. You know, like, well, my dog's doing this thing and, you know, is there a pill we can put him on for that? So a lot of times, you know, yes, there certainly may be medication that we could use for that, but that is not going to fix the problem by itself. And, you know, it can be hard. It puts us in a difficult position, I guess I would say, when owners come in and they are kind of approaching medication from that angle, like they just want drugs to fix it. So even if your vet is not maybe going to be the one who's working with you in detail on, like, your behavior modification plan, even if you have a trainer or, you know, a non-veterinary behavior consultant who's working with you on that side of things, I would definitely let your vet know, you know, hey, we are working on, you know, we're doing X, Y, and Z, and we've made these changes. And, you know, we're still having a lot of trouble with this. And we thought, you know, that if we could get some medication on board, it might help with, you know, this particular part of the plan that we're still having some trouble with. So they're much more likely to be receptive to talking to you about meds if they can tell that you're also doing your part at home as well.

19:49

And there's nothing wrong with doing a little bit of research on your own, you know, especially if your veterinarian isn't, you know, super into behavior and doesn't necessarily do a lot of behavior cases. You know, they may be very receptive. You know, if you come in and say, hey, I've been doing some reading about this and it sounds like, you know, these two medications are really common to use for this problem. You know, what do you think about those? There's nothing wrong with, you know, doing something like that to kind of get the conversation started as well. And then one option that I wish more people knew about, because I don't think people take advantage of it nearly as much as they could, is if you have, you know, a general practice vet who is a great vet, they want to help you, you know, they're in, they would like to, but they just don't know, they may not be super well-versed in all the various behavior medications that there are, you know, and how to use them and pros and cons and all that, which is totally reasonable, right? Because it's kind of a little specialized area of interest that, you know, not everybody has and that's fine. Then it is an option for, to have a, you know, a veterinary behaviorist, or I've done this a few times also for people when they've asked me to, to do a remote consultation with your vet. So, the specialist is not allowed to work directly with you remotely if they've never met you before, and that has to do with what the laws are about, you know, establishing a veterinarian client patient relationship. And that requires an in-person exam to start out. So, if you haven't done that, that's why you can't just call up a specialist in California and have them work with you directly. But the specialist in California can talk to your vet, you know, and say, hey, so your vet can kind of give them the rundown on, you know, what's been going on with the dog and what the case is. And they can say, oh, yeah, you know, for a case like that, I would probably think about, you know, this medication would be a good choice. And here's probably where I would start to, you know, the dosage range for it. Here's what I would do. Here's maybe a medication you can add if you're not seeing improvement in a couple of weeks. You know, like they can walk them through the whole, like, you know, here's what I would do, which is really handy.

21:57

You know, that's a really good way to basically get, you know, a specialist or an expert's input on, you know, what kinds of medication might be good for your dog if you're not able to actually make the trip and see one in person. But there are quite a few veterinary behaviorists who offer that service, and you can find information on it, like, through their websites. And that's something that we talk a little bit about in the webinar as well. You know, I have some examples of, you know, of how those arrangements can work to talk about. But that, I think, is a really, really good option for a lot of people who may not have somebody in their area. So if I remember right, when we're looking at behavior meds, they sort of fall into two categories. There are those that are given occasionally in preparation for specific scary events, and then those that are kind of given more regularly, like, on a daily basis. So can you just talk to that a little bit? What may lead you toward one type of medication or the other? Yeah, definitely. So that's right. Basically, there are two kind of categories of medications that we talk about when it comes to behavior issues. So we have our daily meds, which are meds that you're going to give every day, you know, around the same time, regardless of what else is going on. They're kind of part of a long-term plan. And then we also have situational meds, or some people call those event medications, which you're basically going to give, like, just when you need them. You know, so that could be frequently, could be occasionally. It just depends, you know, but you're just going to give it when the problem is about to happen. So as far as choosing, you know, which of those options might be the best, at least to start with, for a particular dog, we tend to think about daily medications for things that are coming up, like, pretty much every day in the dog's life, right? Or things that minimum are happening, like, a few times a week, you know, that it's probably worth having the dog on some kind of daily medication. So that could be something like separation anxiety, right, where, like, you know, the owner has to go to work every day, right? So that comes up a lot. Or something like a dog that has leash reactivity issues, you know, well, this dog has to go outside the house and be walked at least in, you know, somewhere, to some extent, pretty much every day, right? We also use them sometimes for cases where we have triggers that are not predictable, you know, so maybe they don't happen that often,

24:15

but we don't really have a good way of anticipating them and, you know, dosing medication ahead of time because they sort of come unexpectedly. So in cases like that, we might also like to have a daily medication on board so that at least there's something, you know, on board when those things happen. And then for, you know, really severe, even situational problems, if they're pretty severe problems where we want to get all the help we can get, then sometimes we'll use a daily medication for those dogs as well. And then our situational meds are a great choice for things that maybe only come up occasionally. So if you have a dog who is really nervous about vet visits, let's say, or, you know, long car rides, where maybe those are things that are only happening a few times a year, that dog could be a great candidate for just some type of medication that the owner gives about an hour before they leave the house. And, you know, there we go. Also good for triggers that are predictable. So, again, like if we circle back around to our separation anxiety dog example, for that dog, even though it's not a rare thing maybe that people have to leave the house, it is predictable, right? You know that you're going to have to go to work every morning. So that allows you to dose the medication, you know, an hour before you leave or something like that so that it has time to get on board when you're leaving. And then there are definitely cases where we might use both. So, yeah, a lot of severe cases that we see, we definitely might use both just because we want to have as much help as we can on board. And then certain things we might use both like for part of the year, for example. So, like if you had a really severe thunderstorm phobia dog, let's say, you might use a daily medication for this dog like during the part of the year that we tend to get thunderstorms, you know, and then use a situational medication on top of that when there's actually a storm expected. And then maybe the rest of the year the dog doesn't need anything. So lots of different options there. But those are some examples, you know, of how we might use those meds or how we might combine them. Yeah, it's super helpful. If a listener wants to go in and kind of have that conversation with their vet, are there questions they should be asking to kind of help figure out the right options for their dog? You know, what kind of information should they be considering? I know you mentioned kind of coming in with, you know, this is what we're doing kind of outside of medication. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

26:41

So, yeah, and there a lot is going to depend on how comfortable your vet is with behavior meds, right, as far as how, you know, how well they're going to be able to answer some of your questions. So if they're not really that comfortable, then again, considering like a remote consult vet-to-vet, you know, with someone who is could really be helpful there. But in general, some of the things that you probably are going to want to ask about with any medication that you might be starting with your dog would be things like, you know, what kinds of side effects might you expect to see? If any, are there any medication interactions that you need to be worried about? So do make sure they know anything else that your dog is already on as far as medication. And also ask what to look for, right? So how are you going to know if the medication is helping? Which is a good question that I think sometimes we don't talk about enough, right? Because frequently the answer is not going to be, well, the problem goes away, right? Although that would really be nice, but often that's not quite what we get. So it is nice to know what specifically you should be looking for that will help you know like, oh, we think this is helping. Also nice to ask about, you know, how long does it take to start working? And any recommended monitoring for the medication. So most of the meds that we use, as far as that goes, like I said, are not particularly risky as far as like liver or kidney issues or anything like that. I usually recommend just basic annual blood work for my patients that are on meds. But, you know, your vet may recommend something different, right? So that's a good question to ask as well, especially if it's going to be more of a long-term sort of medication. We've kind of alluded a couple of times now to the fact that you've got a webinar coming up on this stuff. So it's a repeat of your Intro to Behavior Meds webinar that you did. It was a while ago now. So it's coming back around on January 30th. For those listening, trying to decide if they should tune in, can you just talk a little more about what you'll cover in the webinar and, you know, maybe some information on who would really be a good fit? And you certainly mentioned part two, too, which I think is the following week, right? Yes. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, so I am really looking forward to getting to do this set of webinars again. This is a topic that I really like and I think it's super interesting and I think there's not enough good information out there about it. So I'm super pumped about that.

29:02

And as you said, it will actually be a two-part series. So we'll have part one on January 30th, which is going to be kind of a basic introduction, an overview of how we use behavior meds in dogs. And then part two on, I think it's February 6th, right? We'll be... I will double check. It's a week later. A week later. We'll be expanding on that information to talk about some more advanced stuff. Yes, it's February 6th. So... I just double checked. Perfect, perfect. So in part one, we're going to cover things like how we decide if a particular dog is going to be a good candidate for medication, right? Like meds or no meds. We're going to talk about what our goals are in cases where we do use meds. You know, so what are we trying to accomplish here, right? Because like I said, frequently the problem going away completely is not a realistic goal. So what are our goals with meds? We talk about daily versus situational meds, including we do go through and talk about most of the common specific drugs that you might see for behavior issues in dogs and kind of what the pros and cons of them are and how they work and all that kind of stuff. And then we'll touch just a bit on non-prescription options as well. And then in part two, we basically take that information and talk about how we drill down and apply it in the real world. You know, so how do we decide which specific drug is going to be best for, you know, a variety of different cases that we might see. We talk a little bit about combination therapy, you know, so how we might combine meds and what kinds of things we need to be careful about there and, you know, pros and cons of that. We have some case studies and examples that we're going to talk about in part two. And then we also are going to talk some about special considerations for performance dogs and behavior meds, because I know, obviously, that's kind of what FDSA's student population does. So, you know, something that probably a lot of you guys may be interested in there. Right. And, you know, as far as who might benefit from it, I would say that for sure anybody with a dog that has some type of behavior problem, you know, that they think is perhaps not just a training problem, but more of an actual behavior issue. For sure, I think it would be a, you know, something that they would find interesting and hopefully helpful to get some information about what options there might be to consider for their dog.

31:29

And, you know, even if you don't have a dog currently with behavior issues, if you just think this stuff is interesting and you want to be prepared in case you do in the future, you know, that would be – we'd be happy to have you as well. Yeah. And I know that, for example, I messaged you not that long ago because I'm going to be flying a dog, you know, internationally and that type of thing. It's good to understand what some of the options are out there for – Exactly. Even if you're like, oh, my dogs are pretty fine right now, there still might be situations that come up occasionally that you're like, oh, I wonder, you know, would medication be helpful for this and what might our options be? So we'll get into all that good stuff. Awesome. So one – well, one last note and then one last question. So I did just want to note that they are both at 3 p.m. Pacific time. So that's – Perfect. West on the East Coast, 6 o'clock. But on the West Coast, that's 3 p.m., which is when most of the webinars are set to West Coast time. All right. So last question. What's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? Yeah. So that's a good question. I was actually thinking a lot about this and talking to my students about it not that long ago. So as I mentioned at the beginning of the podcast today, I have been doing some herding lessons recently with my dog Clint, which has been really fun. We've enjoyed it. But it's also really hard. I don't know if anybody out there has done any herding, but holy cow. So it is very different from any of the other dog sports stuff that I've done in the past, and it is not intuitive. At least it has not been for me. You know, the sheep are just a whole other factor there. And, you know, it's interesting because I've been doing agility and competitive obedience for almost 20 years now. And I've been, you know, teaching basic skills to pet dogs for the past, like, 10 years or so. And I may not be, you know, the best handler or the best trainer in the world, but I feel competent with those things. You know, like, they feel smooth and easy and natural and they're not hard for me. And I think that when we're working with clients and we're trying to teach them those skills, it's easy to forget that it probably doesn't feel easy or natural for them. Right? Uh-huh. So Clint and I are out in a sheep pen on Sunday mornings right now with our instructor.

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And I'm trying to learn how to tell where the sheep are going and keep my feet moving in the right direction and communicate with my dog, you know, early enough to give him a chance to adjust. And it is just a total fiasco. So I get run over by the sheep multiple times in every lesson right now, like, down on the ground, flat on my back, being trampled by sheep. And we're getting better, you know, so that happens less often now, but still it is an occurrence that happens at least once every lesson. So it's been a very humbling experience for me. And, you know, one of my big takeaways from it has really been it has reminded me to have empathy for my students when they seem to be struggling with something that feels really simple to me. Right? Because when you're new at something, it's not simple. You know, it's awkward and it's hard and you feel like you can't do anything right. And that's a normal part of the process. I heard a great piece of advice once from someone, and I wish I could remember who, because it was great. But it was basically that if you're some kind of instructor, you know, if you are tasked with teaching people how to do something, whether it's yoga or salsa dancing or dog training, that you should make a point of taking a class yourself in something you have never done before, at least once a year. So that you don't forget how it feels to be brand new at something and kind of struggling to figure it out. So the sheep herding has been serving that purpose this year for me. I love that. What a great takeaway. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Jen. No problem. It's been fun and I appreciate you having me. Well, I appreciate you joining me. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We will be back next week with Leslie McDevitt to talk about her counter conditioning reactivity, focus, and fun. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.