E51: 카말 페르난데스(Kamal Fernandez) - "리더십과 경쟁의 이점"

And then finally, my little crossbreed, Sugar Puff, who really is just a very content lap dog. So a lot of dogs. Aww. I love that at the end of all these working dogs, you have a lap dog, which is perfect. Well, she was meant to be my girlfriend's dog. But that, well, I mean, she is really just a family pet. I mean, she's an absolute little puppet. But she was a dog that we got, we rehomed. And she's an absolute joy in every sense. And she's just, you know, the perfect family pet. So you know what? She can do what she likes when she gets away with Blue Murder. To kind of dive into things, I did a little bit of reading, you know, before putting together the questions. I got caught up a little bit on your blog. For those of you who don't know, Kamal, it's a blog at kamalfernandez.blog. If you Google his name, it does come up. Anyway, you recently wrote a post about why you choose to compete in dog sports. And you kind of shared that you're under no illusions that dog sports aren't really about your dogs. They're not sitting around dying for a chance to compete. So I was hoping you'd share some of that here. Why do you compete in dog sports? Absolutely. Yeah, I'm happy to do so. And as the blog said, which was, I'm under no illusions that, you know, competing in dog sports is very much for my ego and my benefit. My dogs, you know, they love the interaction. They love the training. But to actually put them in my vehicle, drive to Timbuktu, get them out and to ask them to perform a dog show or a dog trial or et cetera, an agility competition is very, very much about my ego. So for me, that dictates the reason why I train my dogs. Sorry, the manner in which I train my dogs, which is using reinforcement, because as I say, it's for my ego. The least I can do is make it, sell it to them in a way that is beneficial for them. Now, the flip side to that is I have dogs that definitely need a vocation, but, you know, they're high drive dogs. They're dogs with a lot of energy. And they're dogs that, you know, on paper, you would say would have definitely behavioral issues if it wasn't channeled. So I train them because it appeases that part of their personality. But I could just as easily go over to my local park or train a village hall or any location and do exactly what I do with them. And that would appease that need, so to speak. So the reason which I compete is because, one, I'm going to be truthful. It's for my ego. I'm a competitive person. I like to push myself as a trainer to see if I can train my dog to the standard where it's better than my peers. And I think that that challenge keeps my training fresh.

It keeps me innovative and innovative, I should say. And it also gives me a standard to aspire to. You know, it would be very easy with a certain type of dog that I own, certainly, to manage their behavior and not deal with if the dog had a dog aggression issue or was reactive or was chase-motivated or chase-orientated, I should say. It would be very easy to stay in my life and manage their behavior. But going to competition forces me, to speak, forces me as the trainer to have to deal with some of those issues. And as a byproduct of that, it actually creates a dog that is able to function in society with great ease. I mean, my dogs I can take anywhere. I can take them to the high street if I'm having a cup of coffee. I could take them to a public place and they would be well-mannered and they would have good social skills, etc. And taking them to competitions forces my hand to have to deal with that stuff. I have to socialize them. I have to teach them self-control. I have to teach them self-control. I have to teach them to be focused on me and ignore other dogs or fast-moving things. So from a behavioral point of view, I actually benefit from having to take them to those environments because I have to deal with the things that I could quite easily manage and deal with in other ways. So that's part of the thing. The other thing is that for me, I train dogs because it's an extension of my relationship. And being amongst other people that have a similar ethos is, you know, you accrue, I wrote a blog today about villagers. You accrue people that support you in the journey that which you choose to tread. And that is not only in the manner in which I train my dogs, but also showing that what can be achieved by this methodology and this approach to dog training. So certainly for dog sports, which is largely the majority of dog sports have, with the exception, I'd say, of say agility and heel work slash freestyle. Those are sports that are relatively new in comparison to, say, bite work and protection work and IPO and obedience, et cetera. There's a less bias towards more traditional and, you know, sometimes compulsive methods. And I think the way in which we will change people's perception of how to train dogs is to get out there and show and illustrate to people what can be achieved, not just as a more local level, but at the highest level in all sports. So nationally and even world championship level. I mean, I've had students that have gone to the world championships with dogs that have been trained positively in a sport that is primarily like, for example, it was IPO, which

is a sport which is largely still has a lot of compulsion and within it. So that was a huge thing to illustrate what could be achieved by reinforcement based methodology. And I think if we are going to change the way in which people perceive how to train dogs, then we need to be out there and be almost ambassadors for this, for that change. A lot of people tend to wind up at a competition for the first time before they or their dogs are really ready, often without realizing how unprepared they actually are. So if you could talk a little bit about how you decide when to officially begin trialing a dog, when they kind of have those skills and you feel that they're ready to go to a real competition. I do a lot of preparation for my dogs and my actual goal whenever I get a dog is to create a well-adjusted family pet. That's my agenda because I know by putting in the layers of creating a well-adjusted family pet, I'm going to get a great competition dog. And so I was in a situation where with one of my dogs, you know, his career in dog sports was a little bit in jeopardy. He had a major injury and I wasn't sure if the dog would be able to recover from that, you know, injury to be able to ever compete. And I was faced with the prospect of having this dog and he would have to be, in verb commas, just a pet. Well, if I'd got the dog with the primary intention of competing with him, I would have been, you know, focused on, say, drive building and bike work, et cetera, when he wouldn't have been a nice dog to own. But because my agenda was to first and foremost make him a great family pet, it was neither here nor there. So the process of creating a dog that's great at competitions is about establishing things like focus, a great recall, you know, getting a dog to be socially acceptable to work on their temperament. And, you know, don't get me wrong. I don't have dogs that are all of that ilk. I have rescue dogs. I have ready home dogs. I have breeds of dogs that are predisposed to having aggression, chase drive, reactivity issues. And as part of dog training and as part of preparing them for competition, I have to create a dog that's stable in all those environments. So, you know, I'm a great believer in training beyond the requirements of competition. So, you know, I do a lot of generalizing with my dogs. I take them to weird and wonderful places to get them confident in those environments. I teach them to cope with all the things that they're going to encounter at a competition. And that is other dogs, other people, motion, distractions, tense, flapping things, you know,

things overhead, et cetera, et cetera. All that stuff's done first and foremost. Now, it would be great to have a dog with a baseline temperament that I could get away with not having to do that work. But, you know, either type of dogs I have, and I don't just have one type of breed of dog. I don't have dogs all that are from specific working lines. You know, I have rescue dogs. I have rehomed dogs. I have dogs of unusual breeds. And my first goal is to get that dog comfortable in all environments. So that in itself can take time and patience and dedication. And then from that, I obviously am building behaviors like focus. So, you know, simple behaviors like sit, down, stand, creating a lot of focus for me, working on a domestic recall. By doing that, I create the basis of a dog that can cope with competition. So that's my primary objective initially. Once I've done that, training the dog to do the specifics needed for competition, actually, here's the ironic thing, is actually really, really easy. It's a doggle to teach a dog to pick up a dumbbell and come back if you've done all those preliminaries. So, for example, if I've created lots of focus for me via using the medium of play, I know that it's going to be easy to teach my dog to bring a retrieve article back. I know that it's going to teach my dog to be a great agility dog or have agility skills if my dog has the ability to ignore distractions, for example. Well, that would transfer to me walking down the street and the dog ignoring distraction. The whole thing is, it's a holistic way in which I engage with my dogs. So it's all about preparation. And we used to have a phrase when I was a police officer, lack of preparation is preparing to fail and failing to prepare makes an ass out of you and me. And that, you know, if you don't put the work into preparing your dogs, and that is not only the dog training, that's the you training. That's looking at yourself. That's looking at your mental game. That's looking at your confidence level. That's the whole picture. And as a sports dog coach, my agenda, my goal is to create the team. And I use that word specifically the team, both the dog at hand, and that can cope with the rigors and challenges faced within dog sports. You said in there, you said you take them to lots of weird and wonderful places. And I love that turn of phrase that just kind of rolls off the tongue really neat. So I was hoping that you might be willing to dive a little bit deeper into your process of preparing for that first competition. Can you just share a little bit about how you go about that?

So the first thing is I create a lot of focus for me. And that's done. I work a lot on my dogs recall domestically. I take them to lots of environments. And I do the socializing process with other people and dogs, etc. But the main thing that I'm aspiring to create with my dog is largely indifferent to things. I don't want my dog to be overly focused with dogs. I don't want it to be overly focused with people. I would largely like them to be indifferent. Like, yeah, people, dogs, you know, I'm certainly not stressed by them. I'm certainly not excited by them. I'm largely indifferent. How I do that is I am very diligent about how I am aware about how I socialize my dogs. I ensure that even socialization, it's a process. It's strategic. I choose the dogs that my dogs will mix with. I choose the people that my dogs will mix with. And obviously, as a professional dog trainer, I'm able to do that. But even my domestic clients who have no interest in doing a dog sport specifically, we discuss the need to be vigilant with how you socialize and engage your dogs with the world. First, identify, obviously, if the dog has any issues with his baseline temperament, because not all dogs are predisposed to coping with those things. That's my first thing. I need to see what I've got. And then if the dog lacks confidence or is nervous or apprehensive or fearful, I first do work to create a dog that's confident and well-adjusted in all environments. Then I work on basic skills. I work on my foundation. And this is something that I would say most people underestimate, the need to teach foundation. And it's called foundation because that's where you are laying your basis for which your house, your building, your tower of dog training is going to be placed. If your space isn't solid and secure and well-grounded, your house will inevitably fall down. And that is having a dog that has great skills in relation to toys. So I teach distinct skills. That is my dog to tug a toy, my dog to bring the toy back at speed, my dog to release the toy on cue, my dog to drive to a dead toy on the ground, and my dog to chase a moving toy. So I do those in relation to play. And I teach distinct marker words, which I blatantly took from another Fensi dog instructor, Shade, whose concept of introducing marker words is absolutely fantastic. And I believe other trainers in Europe use a similar principle. So I teach all that first in relation to toys. Parallel to that, I work skills in relation to food. And I also get my dog shaping behavior and understanding to offer behavior. So I lay all that foundation before I teach a specific exercise.

And the reason I do that is because now I have the mechanical skills and the dog has the skills to be able to train the dog effectively and efficiently for that specific behavior. So, for example, if I need to teach a behavior that requires distance, a great way to reward the dog would be to throw the toy to the dog. Now, if my dog doesn't pursue a moving toy and then bring it back to hand and doesn't release it, I now have to come up with an alternative solution. I would have to either go to the dog or I would have to use food, which might not be appropriate in the environment or might reduce drive, etc., etc. But I'm having to compromise the A1 means of reinforcement for that dog. So for me, it's all about laying foundations. And a really good example is my youngest dog, Mighty. So Mighty was born and she coincided with the birth of my daughter. And obviously, my priorities for dog training was very much about putting that on a back burner. So she largely was left to pasture, so to speak. You know, I worked on social skills. I took her out on her own and I did recalls and stuff. But she had no training for any dog sport specific behavior at all. So I didn't teach healing. I didn't teach retrieves. I didn't teach any of that stuff. I didn't do her foundation for agility. I did nothing. Now, but what I did do was teach her skills in relation to toys, food, shaping, etc. I did five-minute sessions with her, you know, whenever I could. And her training was very sporadic. Now, fast track, and her siblings were trained, didn't have that issue. And they obviously then, in terms of it was very much a tortoise and the hare scenario. And they raced off and they're doing amazing things by a year old. Well, the irony is that now they're 18 months old. I probably caught up with every single one of her siblings because she had great foundations. So what they were facility working at, and that's not a criticism, etc. of them. It's just that all I did was work on foundation. I worked on her being able to be focused with me. I worked on her understanding to pick up a toy, let it go, bring it back to me, etc. Now I can move her through her training relatively quickly. And she's caught up or certainly fast cashing up with her siblings on what she can do. And that's all about having a great foundation. And I think that most people, they desperately want to move on to the sexy stuff, the fun stuff, the stuff that looks like real dog sports. And just working on being able to give your dog a treat without the dog taking your hand off is something that people go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm going to do that later on.

And yet they miss the importance of being able to deliver reinforcement effectively. And that's really where I would urge people to place their emphasis and their attention and their training time. Because it makes everything else so much easier, right? Absolutely. Yeah. So you mentioned in there a little bit, you're talking about kind of how you evaluated dogs and eight tendencies. And I know that some of your dogs came to you with what people might consider issues, for lack of a better term. And you mentioned last time you were on the podcast that you actually really enjoy working with behavioral cases. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about how you decide kind of what a particular dog's tendencies are and how those impact what you focus on in your training or even what sports you might do with that particular dog. I would get a dog with some idea of what I'd like to do with that dog. But if I could, I could pick a dog from a certain line or lineage or temperament that's going to be best suited for a vocation. However, you know, I've had dogs that I knew, I literally saw, for example, my Border Collie scooter and my German Spitz. I literally saw them in, one was online. I saw a picture of him. I rang up the breeder and I think I got him like with no knowledge of anything about him, his history. I just was like, I made the decision. I wanted a little small dog. I was Googling. He came up and that was about as complicated as it got. And when I bought a Collie scooter, I'd lost two dogs very young and I was frantically looking for another dog. And at the time, there was no puppies. For some reason, so it came across. All litters had been gone or et cetera, et cetera. The time was wrong. And I saw him in a magazine looking for a home and I went and got him with no history, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, and I had intentions of what I'd like to do with that dog. I was going to do tracking, et cetera, but he had a reoccurring physical injury, which meant that he couldn't do that. So in his situation, I'm going to use the word force to change what I did with him. And the irony is that he really was a brilliant, brilliant tracking dog. He just had a natural aptitude to it, but he couldn't jump because of this particular reoccurring injury. In that instance, it wasn't so much his temperament that dictated it. It was physicality. So that was what dictated the way, the sport that I did with him. But temperament's a massive thing. If the dog has an aptitude to something and the dog gets joy from that, why not investigate that as a chosen career or sport for that dog?

Because I'm a great believer in doing what your dog loves and finding a way to find what your dog loves and manipulate it to get what you want from the dog. If my dog has a particular tendency towards, say, for example, chase drive, the obvious sport I'm going to pick for them may be something like agility or something that is motion driven. You have to appease what the dog is naturally. You have to give the dog what its baseline requirements are. If I have a dog that likes to run in some way, shape or form in its life, I need to give it, I need to almost appease that part of its personality. Same if I have a dog that likes to hunt, I'm going to do something with it that appeases that part of its personality. Now, that doesn't mean that I might compete with it, but in its daily life, I'm going to do something that satisfies it. And I genuinely believe that creates a dog that is content and happy because they don't have that sort of frustration of not having that part of their temperament or what is hardwired genetically not satisfied. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Yeah, no, I think that's super important. And a lot of people, you know, they get a dog that was bred for a specific purpose and they don't always think about how that should influence or does influence what they should do on a daily basis. So I think that's an interesting point. Absolutely. You know, a lot of the behavioral cases I work with is because the dog, they get a dog that happens to be from a certain breed that is predisposed to work. They need a task. And that doesn't mean I would say to them, you need your dog sport with this dog, but you do need to do something that appeases that part of their characteristics. So, you know, like a cock or spaniel, you know, play some search games with it, you know, throw a ball in long grass, you know, teach it to go finding things. Do some like fun scent work in your living room. Something that just checks the box of hunting in that dog's DNA, as it were. And it's the same for, you know, if I had a dog that was predisposed to running, I would have to do or like to chase. I would channel that chasing onto me via a recall so that my dog didn't then externalize that in a negative way and therefore become reactive, become the dog that chases traffic, becomes the dog that obsesses with shadow, et cetera, et cetera. Now, did you pull out a cock or spaniel example? Because you know that I have a nine-month-old English cocker puppy. Yeah, absolutely. Got to love a cock or spaniel. So I want to switch gears a little bit.

I know you've been doing some writing recently about the term leadership and how you struggled a bit with the term because of how strongly it's associated with dominance theory. So I wanted to ask you a little bit about that. What got you started thinking about the concept? The spectrum of – I've been dog training a little while now and I've seen a real journey from how we used to train dogs and how we viewed dogs and even from a social setting to how we see them now. And I would say the pendulum has swung from one extremes to another and that we've gone from, you know, the use of compulsion was very much accepted, you know, and the norm. So just to give you an example, the first day I went to dog training with my little crossbreed, I was nine years old, eight or nine years old. I was taught how to put a check chain on her and we walked around the hall for the whole 45 minutes and we did recalls. We did all these exercises, which now I look back and I shudder and I go of all the things that was wrong with that situation and from what is best dog training. Now, you know, don't get me wrong, the intentions of the people were genuine and they were heartfelt and they believed, you know, like Maya Angelou says, when we know better, we do better and that they believe what they did was correct. But that opinion and viewpoint has largely changed into more positive reinforcement base. We've had more studies completed about dogs and dogs behavior and how behavior is viewed and how the interpersonal relationship with dogs isn't about them plotting up at night, thinking how they can, you know, you know, sugar's now sitting on my bed. I can't for one minute think that I have to sleep with one eye open and the, you know, the risk of her taking over the world, so to speak. We've made peace with that. We know that that isn't the case, but we've become almost reluctant to give our dogs leadership and to give them direction and say to them, it's okay. It's fine. You're going to be okay. Or to say to them, that's not acceptable behavior. That is acceptable behavior. That's why I'd like that to do. And I, I spoke at a conference talking about the dirty words of dog training and the concept of saying no, and I'm not going to say in the, not, no, not as in I'm literally saying no, but laying boundaries for a, my dog and having lines drawn in the sand about what is acceptable and what is not acceptable behavior. I believe there's a lot of guilt in dogs and dog training.

I think that we have a real issue of guilt about what we've, how we've treated these amazing animals who have forgiven us for poor communication, misunderstanding, and really, really inadequate training. And we've, oh, we're overcompensating in that we, you know, there's a train of thought about not to put your dog in a collar, that head collars are aversive, which, you know, you could argue aversive that they are, that, you know, even, you know, any sort of stress or frustration to your dog is to be avoided at all costs. It's not even a balance. It's not even a balance because my weight is very much in the realms of reinforcement and positive dog training. I absolutely, absolutely from believe in, in its power and its potency. And it's my, the way in which I post dog training, isn't just about dog training. It's about the way in which I live my life. I believe in being positive, positive energy, putting positivity out there, et cetera. But, and the parallel I use is as a new parent, you know, my role for my daughter is to give her direction, direction is to give her leadership and to give her confidence. And that's the greatest gift I can give her, in my opinion. If I can give her confidence and self-belief, for me, that's, you can give a child nothing, no greater gift. And that stems from, sometimes it's going to be saying to her, that's not appropriate. You can't speak to people like that. That's amazing. That's fantastic. We're super proud of you. You know, I consider myself somebody that leads by example, in a professional sense and also a personal sense. And I, I have no qualms with talking about the concept of leadership, but my dogs require leadership. You know, I've had dogs like my spits. He was incredibly fearful, incredibly nervous with people and dogs and life. And the way in which I built his confidence was to give him leadership and teach him, it's fine. Look, the flappy thing's not going to hurt you. This person's not going to come near you. I'm not going to, I will look after you. I will be there. I'll support you. I never forced him. I never grabbed him and said, you're going to put up with the thing that scares you most. Or I was always the person that gave him confidence. And I fed that through to him with my interactions and my presence and the way in which I dealt with him. We have become dubious about talking about leadership because I think that it has connotations with dominance-based theories to dog training in which we, it was all about being the alpha and being stronger and bigger. And we know that's been dispelled now.

I have no negative connotations about leadership, but I have no negative connotations about being a leader to my dogs and giving them confidence. And, you know, I hope that people realize, and I stress this, that that is not, leaders don't oppress. Leaders inspire. They cause you to want to do better. You know, and I look at the people, you know, that I consider as leaders in the, you know, in the public eye. And I look to them and I think they inspire you to do better. They show you what can be achieved by greatness or what greatness looks like. And for me, I use that parallel with my dog training. So there are a couple of things in there. And one, like it sounds like partially what you're talking about is leadership as, you know, the idea that positive isn't permissive, that that doesn't mean we have to take kind of whatever our dogs do. It also seems like there's kind of this bigger idea of kind of what leadership is in there. So how do you kind of define that term or how are you defining that term? What does that look like? I know you talked about kind of with your spits, you know, you needed to feed him that confidence. Maybe you can kind of paint that picture just a little bit more of what that looked like or what you were doing. Well, I mean, I deal with a lot of dogs that have reactivity issues and fear issues. And I'll give you an example of a dog that I had. And I posted videos of him on my Facebook page. And that was a Great Dane called Jensen. And he was a very obviously a large adolescent Great Dane. And he came with and I fortunately I didn't miss my first interaction with him. And he was incredibly fearful. And he'd had a history of being reactive. He chased after a child. And there was a couple of other things going on with him. You know, when he came to me the first day I met him, he spook barked at me. He backed off, et cetera, et cetera. And, you know, his owner was really, really dubious about, you know, she was concerned about leaving him, et cetera, et cetera. And within, I would say, 24 hours, the dog's behavior changed. And this is the same dog. And bearing in mind, you know, she dropped him off for training with me. I had the dog for 10 days. Within 24 hours, the dog was different. And within 48 hours, you would have said I'd either done something with that dog or given him some sort of medication or he was doped or tranquilized because his temperament changed. And the way in which I dealt with him was I just never made a big deal out of his when he got worried or apprehensive or scared. It was okay. I just allowed him to, you know, figure things out for himself.

I allowed him the space and the time to just work out that the world is in a scary place. And I can remember distinctly taking him past a large garden ornament. And he absolutely freaked out. And he spook barked at it. And he was on a lead. So it was fine. And it was quite a reasonably long lead. And I just let him go to the end of the lead. And I just stood my ground and just sort of like scratched my head and looked around and remained really nondescript about the whole thing. I was like, okay, he's scared of the garden ornament. Okay. And I just allowed him to just figure it out. And he sort of sniffed the ground and went up to it. I didn't feed him or reinforce him for any behavior per se. I just allowed him to realize, oh, okay, there's a garden ornament. That's all it is. And once he figured it out, the dog was absolutely fine. But because I didn't react and I didn't panic and I didn't get stressed or I didn't hype or I didn't go fearful, the dog picked up from me that, oh, okay, it's just this guy doesn't seem to be concerned about it. Why should I? And that was a consistent thing with him. Now, another good scenario is I had him on a training camp with me for a week, as I say. And, you know, this is a dog that had reactive issues. He would lunge and, you know, actually sort of caused quite a damage to his owner's hand by him pulling and sort of sprained her. I think he fractured her finger or her hand by his strength, obviously. So he'd had major issues with reactivity and lunging. And I was training him one day. I was just playing with him and doing stuff with him. And somebody didn't know I was training. And they let their dog in the field. It came rushing up to him, straight up to him. The dog, it was a golden tree, but really over, really lovely dog, really super friendly. And Jensen did nothing. He just sniffed it. And I instantly relaxed and gave him a bit of lead. He sniffed it. And that was the end of that. Now, if that was previous to my dealings with him, that dog would have definitely, definitely reacted, so to speak. And, again, it just sums up. I did things with him like I definitely worked on his recall. I took him out with my other dogs. And my dogs are all very confident. So dogs pick up on that energy and they pick up on that vibe, so to speak. You know, if you're with a group of people that are gregarious, outgoing, and positive, you tend to pick up on that energy, so to speak. So it's the same with dogs. And the other thing I did with him is I allowed him just to figure stuff out. I let him be a dog. And I think that's a really, really, really key thing.

Allow the dog to be a dog. Let him be a little bit, like, freaked out by something and let him just work it out. Oh, it isn't a big scary scarecrow. It's just, you know, an inanimate object. It's not something. It's not an axe murderer that's going to kill me. Do it at a safe distance and be cautious and be sensible, but don't be fearful in your dealings. And, you know, I'm very much about letting dogs figure their stuff out. And, you know, I give them time. Obviously, I use reinforcement if appropriate. I give the dog space and I'm mindful of who I'm interacting the dog with. So there's loads of things that help the dog. But the big thing is I give him leadership. I say to him, the world isn't a scary place. You're going to be fine. Let's walk past the ornament. Let's just ignore it. It's fine. Let's go. I'm not bothered so you're not bothered. And that obviously, you know, I'm a confident person when I deal with dogs and dogs definitely pick up on that. So practical things that people can do and take away is, you know, video your training, video your interactions and look at triggers that you do. Do you tense up the lead? Do you tense up your shoulders? Does your body posture change? Those are things that you can untrain the dog's association with by doing those in the privacy of your own home and pairing them with reinforcement. So you can help your dog understand that those triggers equate to good things happening to them. The other thing is accrue people that are going to help you build your confidence with your dog if you're not naturally a confident person. So I talk about accruing villagers. People that have the same ethos of you, have the same approach to dealing with dogs and therefore are going to help you with dogs that are challenging or have issues and that you need to be a leader in. So, you know, you want supportive people around you. But there is information out there. I mean, obviously, I teach for the FDSA. And, you know, I am going to use her as an example of Denise Fensi is by definition a leader. She created the FDSA from nothing and she's accrued people, villagers, whatever you want to call them, who are of the same ethos. We all are individual. We have our own little things. And I think that's the strength of the school. But we're all leaders in our own field, so to speak. But Denise leads from the front and she sets the tone, the example of how everybody engages and how we operate and how we teach and how we approach our teaching.

And, you know, from my personal experience, that's been a learning curve, you know, how to deal with people online, how to teach them and be more effective in my teaching and my communication to be better and to be able to help more people. That's the epitome of what a leader should be. There's no judgment. It's about inspiring people to want to do better. And I would say, you know, Denise is a great example of that. There is other people within our industry, so to speak, who I would look to as great leaders. Because she's definitely somebody that's taken the bull by the horns and set up this amazing tool to do so. Yes, absolutely. I couldn't agree with you more. To kind of shift gears back a little bit to the leadership concept. Last time you were on, we talked about this idea that work equals play equals work. And it seems like that idea and this idea of leadership are kind of connected somehow. I'm not sure exactly where to kind of pull those threads together. Do you see those ideas as related? And if so, kind of how or how not? Absolutely, I do. So, you know, the way in which I explain it is when I was a police officer, we always had a phrase in that you'd say you'd go the extra mile for a good governor. So a governor would be a person of rank who would be, you know, your manager, so to speak. And you would go the extra mile for somebody that was, you know, that recognized your value, so to speak. And I think that's very much applicable to dog training. And the reason they were, they appreciate you is because you didn't feel like you were going to work. You felt like you were going to be part of a team and having a great time with your mates. And everybody had the same vision. Everybody was collective in what they were aiming for. But we were really, I don't want to say we were playing a game because it was obviously serious work, but it never felt like work. It never felt like a tool to engage with the teams that, the team that I'm specifically thinking about. Because the person that led us created that ethos within the group, if that makes sense. And I'd say the same applies to dog training in that, you know, if you can inspire your dog to want to play the game with you. Susan Garrett has a great phrase in that. She says, you know, people that do great things or are leaders, so to speak, they make the mundane tasks a game. They make the things that are laborious and hard. They make it a game and everybody wants to play games. And my role is to make it a game. So the dog wants to play the game with me.

And being an effective leader, you are inspiring the people that you lead, whether it be two-legged or four-legged, to want to participate. And for me, the way in which I do that is via the medium of the game. So I want to totally change gears on you for a minute here and talk a little bit about your Handler's Choice classes. And I know Denise often says that the Handler's Choice classes are one of the best values of FDSA. And I know you've taught them at least the last few sessions. It seems like when I look back, it seems pretty consistent. So I wanted to see if there's something special about these classes that's led you to offer them regularly. And if you could just share a little bit about kind of how you run them and what they're all about. Handler's Choice is probably one of my favorite courses I've ever done. It's like a smorgasbord of dog training. And anybody that does gold on a Handler's Choice, you are going to get such amazing value for money. And you're going to learn so much because there's so many things that are covered. It's like I've done Handler's Choice and I had healing, retrieve, go out, sendaways. I had like impulse control. I had like a behavioral thing in there all on one course. And you're thinking like this is like such a – you sign up for, you know, as a bronze, you're getting like five or six or seven or eight, depending on how many golds, different gold participants. You're going to get all that information, all on different stuff. Now, and I just think it's such a great thing. And the way in which I do it is I allow everybody on Handler's Choice to pick two things that they want to work on. So it might be, for example, healing and retrieves. Or it might be impulse control and tugging, for example. I'm just hypothetical. And I work through that over the six-week period. And I will post videos that are lectures relating to your specific needs. And I'll also do ad hoc ones. If I haven't got a video that's appropriate, I'll go and literally do one specifically for your needs. And the other thing I do, which is really, really cool and I love to do, is I live stream a session relating to somebody on that course. And I have an alumni group for the FENZ students that have done any of my courses. And I have done live streams talking about everything from heel work to behavioral issues and adolescence, for example. I think I did a live stream on. And it's such a great course. It's like the secret course. People just don't pick up on how amazing it is. I mean, you have so many courses that are very specific.

And the information is amazing, but it's very, very much about a specific task, a specific skill. But Handless Choice is literally a smorgasbord of brilliant training and so many different subjects. So if you're a dog training geek like me, Handless Choice is definitely the course to do. So one last question before I let you go. I didn't see anything scheduled with you yet after February when I was checking. It's possible that will have changed by the time this comes out. But are there any other classes kind of coming up that you're going to be offering in the next couple of sessions that listeners should keep an eye out for? Yeah. I mean, I'm the world's worst for getting my calendar in order. And I tend to message Denise going, oh, Denise, can I do this in February? And Denise being Denise goes, yes. Message Terry or get her to sort it out, whatever. I probably know me will do something in February. At this moment, I'm not sure what it's going to be. I would have thought it would be Handless Choice again because that's just a road in class and I love teaching that. At the moment, I'm doing the FCI Foundation Healing course. Well, probably the natural thing would be to do the next subsequent course after that to give the people on the Foundation course continuity. That's probably be the way in which I'm heading. The whole concept of the school is just fantastic. I love the ethos. I love the message. I love what the other instructors bring to the table. You know, some of them are like very diverse and very different to what I do and I'm very different to what they do. But I think the beauty is that we're all individual, but we're all on the same song sheet, so to speak. And I think for anybody contemplating doing a course, just, and it's, you know, it's amazingly great amount of value for money. You know, it's such a reasonably priced product, you know, to be crass, you know, like it doesn't cost the world to do six weeks of dog training with a world renowned international dog trainer in a specific field for $65. I can't remember. Is that, I think it's $65. I mean, where are you going to get that information? I mean, it's ridiculously cost effective. So, yeah, hopefully more people will sign up for it and they'll get on board with what FENSI has to offer. I certainly hope so. Well, thank you so much, Kamal. I really appreciate you coming back on the podcast. My pleasure, Melissa. Thank you very much for asking me and thank you very much for having me and all the best. You too. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in.

We'll be back next week, this time with longtime FTSA student Esther Zimmerman to talk competitive obedience and dog sports in general. And, guys, this week I want to repeat my special request from the last couple episodes. If you listen to podcasts, I'm sure you've heard other people say this, but reviews on iTunes have a huge impact in helping new people find the show. And then letting iTunes know that our show is actually worth listening to. So if you enjoyed this episode or any of the previous ones, I'd really appreciate it if you could take a moment, go to iTunes, and leave us a review. We've gotten a few new ones, like this one titled Another Way to Learn from Top Dog Trainers from a Very Dead Bird. I'm excited that the Fenty Academy has another venue to educate about progressive, effective dog training methods. If you're a fellow behavior geek, especially if you're into dog sports, this podcast is for you. Thank you, A Very Dead Bird, whoever you are. And while you're there, if you haven't already, subscribe to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenty Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenty for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in, and happy training. Thank you. Thank you.