에피소드 20 - 반려견과의 성공을 위한 NePoPo®

you can sit down and give examples and everything, but everybody always >> whenever Yeah. Whenever you tell somebody, I'm a dog trainer, they always come out with, well, yeah, I have this dog and you know, great dog, but this is what is happening. I don't know why. They expect you to fix it right there just by telling them, >> which maybe you could, but then they'd go home and forget 85% of what you told them anyway. They wouldn't be able to do anything. >> Yeah. >> Oh, but that goes to like things I see because I'm always following rescue stuff, right? >> Yeah. And it's always or or even pages that about dog training advice. You see, and people always started with like this is the best dog I ever had, but it bites everybody that comes in the house. [laughter] We always started there when you're first reading the paragraph, it's like this this is awesome dog, >> right? It obedient. It does everything right. And then, oh, but you know, it it screams when it gets put in the crate. I don't know how to fix it. Right. So, it's all they always have the best dog and then it's usually something that makes it not the best dog. >> Why is that always the case? So, I don't know if I've shared this story before. Um, I probably not because this is pretty recent. There was It was like three maybe five weeks ago. I was uh we got called um about a dog and the dog needed uh an evaluation, right? It was having some issues. Uh it had had some attempted bites on people in the home and it's a dog that had been kind of bounced around through a foundation, an organization. And so they had finally reached out looking to get like a more professional opinion. And so I'm showing up to this house and all I I look at my notes from the conversation with the the client and and the office and all I've got is it's a French bulldog and it's tried to bite a couple people and you know they they want to you know they just want to see if training is going to be worth worth their while. And so knock on the door, gentleman lets me in, and uh [clears throat] the dog is right there with him off leash trying to get out at me. And I don't see the dog other than like the head, the shape of the head kind of trying to come around the the guy's ankle. And I'm like, "Okay, well, like, hold on, don't open the door. I don't I don't need to meet your dog. Uh it does not seem to be super friendly. Um so why don't we do this? Let's have you put the dog in a kennel if you have a kennel. And he's like, "Yeah, I've got a kennel and um why don't you put him up? I'll come in. We'll we'll run through a few typical housekeeping questions, get some

information on the dog, and then we can take it for a walk, let it, you know, kind of let it come out, put it on leash, and see how it's going to behave, and then we can start observing the dog's behavior." He's like, "That's a good idea." So, shuts the door. Like 10 minutes later, I can hear him in the door like bumbling around and I'm like, "What is going on?" Like, you know, there's all this clattering. And you know, he's like, "Hey, knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock knock it off like and uh anyways he comes back to the door he's like sorry I didn't have my crate assembled and I had to get the dog in the kennel and it took me a minute I was like okay it was kind of funny so I come in the come in the house and it's a wire crate and it's supposedly a Frenchie and I walk in and as soon as I get a full view of the dog the dog starts like like showing predatory aggression like it's like you know like eyes go big it gets quiet it's like starts hunting and then it starts getting aggressive and like kind of frothing of the mouth and I'm like, "Wait a second." I look at my nuts. I'm like, "It says French bulldog." I'm like, "That's not I'm like, "Is that a French bulldog?" He's like, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Wait a second. No, that's it was it was a pocket pity and they had the breed of dog completely wrong." Um, >> well, we call him Jacques. [laughter] >> Anyways, so we're sitting there, long story short, we get through the questions. We get outside with the dog. The dog's on leash. I end up giving him my slip leash um to use because the dog I don't trust that it's going to stay in the the weak plastic buckled nylon collar that it has around its neck. I'm like, that dog is not going to stay inside that. There's going to be an equipment failure some somewhere along the way. So, I give him a slip leash. Dog comes out. I'm walking the dog and I'm like, there's something off about this dog because it just it just wasn't feeling right. And out of nowhere, like I look up and I look down and it took me just glancing up at the owner for the dog to come at me and the dog, it's a female dog, tags me in my upper inner thigh, grabs my jeans and is biting my leg. And fortunately, I had the right equipment on the dog. had a slip line. I was able to lift up, pull it away so that he couldn't get a better grip around my thigh or the dog couldn't get a better grip around my thigh, but ends up completely tearing a like a eight eight or nine inch hole L-shaped rip in my jeans because of the mouthful it had. And I'm sitting there like, you know, my

my pants are like fully exposed like and uh it was just super super crazy. But the the funniest thing to me about that whole situation was they no one that nobody not from the rescue, not from the several owners that it had questioned the validity of the dogs, like the breed of dog it was. And it was absolutely not a French bulldog. This was a pocket pit bull in every sense of the word and 100%. And I was like, I think you need to um tell the tell the uh the rescue that the reason this dog is having problems is cuz it's really not a Frenchie. It's it's a pocket pity and it was really gamey. Um anyways, it was super interesting situation, but you know, you kind of walk with clients, you walk into a lot of different scenarios and and that was a that was an interesting story that happened to me recently. >> Duct tape story. >> Yeah, the duct tape story. I had to duct tape my pants because I had another evaluation on that I had to go to after that appointment. So, unfortunately, he didn't have the duct tape. I had to ask the next appointment if they had any duct tape, which they did. And they were kind enough to like give me some of their duct tape um so I could patch up my >> What happened? Did a Did a dog bite you? The dog was fine. They had an unruly kid. [laughter] >> Couldn't get the dog or couldn't get the kid to let go. But uh No, >> the story you were telling me about like clients and how they don't listen to you. like tell tell the story about the the you know like when you tell them how to like provide a a correction or use how to use a tool and and how they like don't use it the right way. >> Well, a lot of times yeah if you you always um a lot of times there's there's dogs that are very say mild in their reaction to something, right? or they're you you try to get their attention and they're ignoring you, you know, and I will tell the the owners or I will show them like give, you know, tap on the leash to get their attention um or to give some kind of correction. And the when when I do it, the dog it's a very mild tap in my like um in my estimation, right? The as far as what I do, it's a very mild tap, but it's strong enough to get the dog's attention, right? To break their their focus on something. But then you ask, you tell the the owner, "Okay, now do what I did." You give it to them and they are beyond gentle. They're like barely moving the leash to try to get the dog to respond. And the dog is ignoring them completely. Doesn't even phase the dog. Doesn't even He doesn't even look around, right? Doesn't even move. >> Yeah. >> Um and I I tell people I was like, "You're you're massaging your dog."

[clears throat and laughter] I was like, you have to do it so the dog changes what he's doing, right? He wanted him to change his focus. >> Well, for whatever want to change his behavior, right? >> Yeah. And it it happens like all the time. And then that's when you see where where the owners in their everyday life are going wrong because they are applying some kind of communication with a leash to a dog. but it's not effective in changing that behavior that they're trying to change. And the dog learns to ignore it and they they just do do whatever they want. And the the person is tugging on the leash, tugging on the leash. Dog is ignoring them doing whatever they want. And then of course, what do we know? Negative reinforcement. If you put pressure on and the the behavior that was if the dog is doing doesn't change and continues after you stop the pressure then you strengthen that behavior. So without knowing it of course and because they don't want to go a little bit higher on the pressure they are just strengthening all those behaviors continuously day after day. Yeah. And >> unfortunately then you have to come in and now because they've kind of desensitized the dog now you have to go >> taller. >> Yes. And and that's what's crazy is because because they have desensitized the dog and taken the dog to a a level where it's comfortable at, you know, you have to come in and be the overbearing one, right? And in applying the higher level pressure and then sometimes they say, "Oh, why are you being so harsh on the dog?" or you know and you're like well I wouldn't have had to if like correction had had been a little bit more meaningful earlier on at in the development of this problematic behavior right >> yeah exactly the other thing I see a lot of is where like I will provide I'll apply pressure by tapping it'll be a a very noticeable like distinction tap and there's No pressure. Tap. There's no pressure. Tap. Right? So, it's very clear to the dog. Most owners when you tell them to tap and then they try it, they pull. They pull the leash. They don't tap. Right? So, it's a continuous pressure and then they release. There's a continuous pressure and then they release. And again, that's that communication is the tapping that I do. They're not used to. So, it gets their attention. And not because I'm doing it harder than the the owner. It's just it's different type of communication that tap tap tap. The owner takes over and he's like pull pull pull. And what happens is one, there's no effect on the dog because it's the same communication that they have been feeling for their whole life from the owner that has never changed

>> what they were doing, >> right? >> And that they've learned to ignore. Well, yeah. And I mean, if you've if you've listened to our second episode, we talk about opposition reflex. All they're doing is kicking the dog into opposition reflex with their gradual pressure and tension. And now you get the dog's physiological or reflex response to avoid or to counteract the pressure they're feeling. So, they they're not even being cerebral and or there's no cognitive like like connecting of the dots in the dog's mind. they're just like physiologically responding and in in in the opposite direction to the communication that the owner thinks that they're, you know, trying to deliver to the dog. So, they're kind of working against themsel. >> And this one's Yeah, that exactly that that is what's happening. Um, and going back to the the one I just had, same thing. This dog would bark at everybody outside the gate. You know, they have and they live kind of on a main street a little bit. >> Is this the tiny dog that you sent sent me the video of? >> Like the little happy one? >> No, no, this is a Doberman that I saw the other day. >> Okay. Um but just with clear communication right with that dog I it stopped barking at people like while I was there of course uh and only because I was just very clear and precise with telling the dog, "Hey, knock it off. I don't want you to do that." You know, I didn't rip the dog's head off. I didn't use any kind of electronics or anything. It was just, hey, knock it off, but clear that, hey, this isn't going to stop until you stop. And the other thing that you see when I first pulled up, the dog is barking and what what do they do is they take the treat and they're saying the dog's name and the dog's ignoring them. They're kind of pulling on the leash. The dog ignore is ignoring him. Of course, it was on a harness and then they put food in front of the dog's mouth to try to guide it >> away back. Yeah. >> The dog's like, I don't want that stupid food, you know? I want to bark at this person that's standing outside the gate, >> right? But you see like everybody I don't know are people taught that in these group classes with you know to you put the food in front of the dog's face when it's not paying attention to you instead of creating a marker, you know, or a strong like focus command or their name to that where they decide to look to look towards you. Because most people, they ask for the dog to look at them or say their name. They the dog ignores them, ignores them, ignores them, and then they put the food in front of their mouth to try to get them to turn around. And of course, the dog still ignores them

because there's no value in that anyway. Um, but I see that a lot too, which >> Oh, >> yeah. I think that's that I think that's a pretty pretty common practice among like people that especially people that want to espouse the approach to training of like forcefree training or purely positive training. I think that's a pretty popular idea is like do something in exchange for something. Let me let me give you let me trade you like you dropped the bone here's a treat like you know let me give you something for the ball. And I think the exchange idea was was debunked, you know, like I actually just had a a gentleman I was working with giving some some Napo introductions to uh through some private coaching and he had he had been around in the dog industry for 2530 years and he had been at Lackland and and some other uh of the military working dog bases and the the common means of getting a dog to out was you either would exchange the dog like you would like have a have a toy to try to get the dog to let go to come to the toy or you would just crank the dog really hard. There's really two options. And you know when you have dogs that are in such such high drive, right, they're not really exchanged when they can have the real thing, right? They don't want the the artificial toy when the real thing is standing right there or when they've got their mouth on the real thing like the arm or leg of a of a decoy. And so it's yeah, I think the exchange idea or the idea that you can like bribe the dog away from something giving it something that you perceive to be valuable [clears throat] or that you want the dog to feel or have value in. >> [snorts] >> I think it's pretty popular among people who just don't feel comfortable, you know, giving the dog feedback for crossing the line, you know, with certain behaviors and and they'd rather try to do that than than just communicate a clear this was an expectation, you failed it. This is the consequence of the expect of of the behavior. Yeah, that's but that like you see that too like they have an two of the same ball you know is what you like but they do that a lot of people do that wrong also because they never move away from the visual ball the second ball right they never move to where they tell the dog they're out the dog spits it out and then they produce the other ball >> yeah is always in sight. They're always >> always showing and they have to show. The dog is like, I'm not going to let go until I see that you have the other ball, >> right? >> Instead of constantly conditioning my cue to mean I'm going to produce the other ball, >> right? >> You know, and then they wait. And that's

what happens. They wait to see. And then because they want to see the other ball now, they start focusing on your hand instead of you and they don't drop on the command. >> Yeah. >> Because they're waiting [clears throat] the the command to drop is not your word, but it's the sight of the ball or the queue if you want to call it that. Right. >> Right. Well, that makes me think I mean even in the sport world, there are some methods that I mean they I assuming they've originated in Europe cuz that's where most of the the the training methods have originated from that have stuck around over the years in dog sport. But I know for healing it's common practice for people to put a ball under the armpit. But at some point someone from Europe came over taught that concept ball under the armpit gets the dog to look up at you in that in that orientation right for the heel. And somewhere along the way someone here states side probably saw that and said, "Oh yeah, I'm going to do that." So they see it. Like, but what they didn't see was the followup to that is the way the Europeans train ball under the armpit is [clears throat] as soon as they reward the dog with the ball for looking at the armpit or looking up at the armpit. They open their arm, they chicken wing it out, the ball drops, the dog gets the ball, is probably going to run around, play with it, chew it, chomp it, but they're released from that position. What what people are doing or what [clears throat] at least the Europeans do typically is they have three or four more balls that are in their vest that they reload into their armpit again and then they call their dog back to heal and there's already another ball there. So the dog is like superstitious. It believes that there's an endless amount of balls that come out of the armpit, right? And then what happens is the dog or the ball that the dog left behind gets picked up by a spotter. And so that ball is no longer there on the on the grass or the the field. And so if the dog was to try to go back, the dog goes back and can't find it. And he only finds the ball when he comes back to the armpit. And and that's the right way to do ball under the armpit versus what most people do is they just ball in the armpit. It's a singular ball. dog gets it and comes back. He might come back to the armpit in hopes that there might be another ball, but he's disappointed when he finds out there's no more ball there. And the only ball that was in play was the one he got. So, he never wants to come back. >> But, but it's not just that. It's even if it does come back, then they take the ball, that one particular ball, and then

they put it back under their arm while the dog is watching. Right. >> Yes. Well, exactly. And the dog knows that that that again continues to reinforce the idea that there's only one ball in play. But the the real >> I'm guilty of I've been guilty of that. >> Yeah. I But like what I guess my point to here is I'm saying that when that ball under the armpit was introduced here in the US, people saw it. They only saw 50% of the routine because it's it's not just a single ball. It's a replenishment. They have like four, five, six balls in their vest that they're constantly reloading and they're using it in tandem with like a spotter who's picking up the other ball so that when the dog goes back it can't be reinforced for leaving. That's the right way to do ball in the armpits if you're going to do that method. And so you have created a superstition that in the dog it's kind of like magical thinking. the dog believes that you are a dispenser of these balls and and for for every time it's out there that's how it operates and you have to be like that's why that method is kind of tough is because the minute that that uh magical idea breaks down for the dog the dog loses faith that oh there's no more ball or it's only one ball right so I always thought that was interesting why and how people do one ball Because I've had a lot of people that have problems and and they're like they're they do ball in the armpit training and then they have really nice training while the ball is in or healing while the ball is in the armpit, but then the second they want to generalize the behavior and take the ball away for trial preparation, that's where the the dog's like, "Yeah, it's not here. I don't need to look up." Right? And now you have a huge thing to do. Um, not to get off on a a tangent there. I think we're having a really good conversation about like ways to be successful as a pet owner, but like you know, and you can apply that concept uh with like ball in the armpit to other things with the dog in its life as a pet, like make it superstitious about whatever it is. >> Yeah. Um talking about the ball under the armpit to stay on that >> a little bit longer. I like what [clears throat] m Michael Michael and Bart they took that that that I forget who makes it. It's that ball that has all the holes in it. It's more like a it's the structure of a ball that like the framework of a ball. There's nothing inside >> like the the the rubber mesh type of like >> Yeah. where when you put it underneath you squeeze your arm it compacts. >> It collapses. Yeah. But you can hide it like with having normal. It's not like the hard balls where your arm is going

to be sticking out a little bit. >> Yeah. >> It's it's very flexible and it when you put under your arm it totally disappears because you can put your arm down normal and it's there's no uh um substance to it, right? But when you open it, it goes back into its normal shape. Well, that's where the I think that's where the idea behind the leather ball came from because the leather balls that like you know they have like the gap ball. Not that we're plugging gap or anything like that, but like gap has a leather ball with like really soft felt or foam inside and it collapses, but then as soon as you open it up, it expands back to fill that space. And I've seen a lot of people do ball and armpit with that because Yeah. like it's not obvious that you're hiding anything there. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> But you remind me of something talking about pet owners, right? Going back to what like they learn it. Another thing I see a lot of is the pet owners go, you know, in in Naple Pole, we we have our learning pyramids that go in level one, level two, level three, right? So level one is always help, level two sometimes help, level three no more help. And of course we learn and I think a lot of people learn not just naval co but they learn to move from the always help you have to go to intermittent help and then you can go to no more help but most of the pet people I see they go from always help and then >> no more help >> no more help before they've made the behavior a habit for the dog and they lose very quickly that that behavior goes away and they get to a point where now the dog's not even listening anymore because they jumped and missed that that part of training where the intermittent phase where they don't always uh reward their dog, right? Or for us, we don't reward or we don't help. And our help is not just a reward, but it's also uh pressure, right? Yeah. >> So, which is which is help. Um, but that's I see that a lot. I don't know if you you must have seen it too where >> and what happens is they go to my dog doesn't listen unless there's food in my hand. >> It's because you never transitioned. >> Yeah. You >> Yeah. You went from 100% reinforcement to no reinforcement. >> Yep. And I mean, looking at it through the dog's eyes, that's kind of like where the trust is broken, right? They they no longer have hope that there's any chance that they ever get a reinforcement or a treat or a a toy or whatever, right? It's like if you make that cut cold turkey, then it's like, oh well, if this is what my life is going to be like, then of course [clears throat] I'm going to be selfish and do the things that only I want to do. Right.

>> Yeah. And they also don't put enough reps. I think they will reach a point because in the beginning they're excited, they're put doing training and they're putting in the reps, okay? But because it takes work, right? It's not like overnight your dog's going to be perfect. So they put in the reps, they're doing training, and I think they reach a point where say the dog has it like 70 75%. But it's not, it hasn't become a habit for the dog yet. >> Mhm. >> But for the owner, they're tired of training and it they reach a point where it's good enough. But because they haven't made it a habit and now they stop training as much, now the behavior degrades. And because it degrades, because it didn't become a habit, it just goes down to zero again. And then the dog's not listening anymore, >> you know? >> It's not not necessarily about listening, but it doesn't there's no reason for it to do the behavior. >> And that makes me think this is I mean this subject alone is in part how you can be like whether you're a a pet owner or a dog trainer, like dogs that go into the board and train style program if you're training through a board and train or sending your dog away for a board and train. when the dog returns back home. That's why it's still important. You can't have the expectation like yes, the dog may be trained, but you still need to reinforce that training when the dog has come back so that you keep that the the habit gets reinforced in your home environment. and then it it can generalize there and you can ease off the the reinforcement and go into intermittent and then eventually like infrequent reward at that point. Um >> yeah, >> and that's the best way to get the the best results from a board and train, right? Versus the people who come home or the dog that comes home to the people and they just cut cold turkey to nothing and expecting like yeah the dog is trained. dog. The dog does know what the behaviors mean, but again, without that hope for reinforcement and the hope in the behavior being a good thing in the dog's life, if you don't if you don't transition that smoothly, the dog loses the trust. >> Yeah. It's like it's exactly what you said about generalizing. It has to generalize to you as well as the environment now, the new environment. But what um it's the other thing is this because like for a board and train the trainer's commands the trainer's voice right what the trainer says has meaning behind it. It has been reinforced. There have been corrections that the dog didn't do right. So the dog knows I one if I do this I pro when my when the handler says this word and I do the thing I probably will be reinforced

maybe maybe not and also if I don't do it I probably will have a correction they understand that because the word has that meaning behind it >> but when they go to the owner their owner owner's words it can be the same command but at least for right Now, it doesn't have the same meaning behind it. And that's why for the first few weeks after the dog goes home, the owner has to follow through, you know, with reinforcement and correcting in the same way it's been taught. So that then they go, it generalizes not just the behaviors, but also the commands from the owner. The owner saying that. Well, would you even say that, you know, like the board and train the dog gets to where they're they're easily in level two of the pyramid of whatever pyramid they've gotten to. By the end of a board and train, the dog's at least in level two or should be. When the dog goes home, you should ask the owner to start back in level one or the learning phase. So where there's constant reinforcement and then as like give them a way to move into intermittent reward or intermittent reinforcement and infrequent uh uh um reward or um various variable reward frequency. Uh >> yeah, >> right. Well, that's yeah, that's one. I don't remember which school it was at, but that that was one thing I remember writing down from Bart and and Michael said when you first hand the dog back to the owner, they should for like for the first week, they should go back down to level one of the learning pyramid. >> Yeah. >> And then le the week after that now go to level two. And owners don't have to go necessarily to level three where they don't do anything. They can stay in level two where they sometimes reward and sometimes uh reinforce with pressure, you know, >> right? >> Just to keep it alive. I think I saw a this is years ago, it might even be like 15 years ago. There was a study done. It was a video I was watching some kind of documentary about dogs and I don't know how the training had been done but they wanted to see the dog knew how to sit for a reward and they wanted to see how long it would take for the behavior to go away if they stopped rewarding. And it was 20 I don't it was 20 repetitions. the dog wouldn't sit anymore because they had stopped rewarding. So what they had said was basically if you reward once in every like once in those 20 repetitions >> you keep it alive. >> You keep it alive. >> Yeah. >> Right. But that also they didn't go I don't think the training was from 100% reward to intermittent and then to nothing. And of course there was no pressure used. It was they just went the dog had learned 100% reward and that's how it always was and they went to zero.

20 reps later the dog wouldn't sit anymore. >> Yeah. >> That makes sense. So for people who are jumping in on this um if you want a more in-depth journey and dialogue on the different learning pyramids that we're referencing here. um the stages of each learning pyramid, the the learning phase or the always help phase, the intermittent phase, and then the no help phase or stimulus control. You can go to episode 17 of the full quadrant podcast, and that's where we walk you through the learning pyramids of NAPO PO, and that'll that'll bring you up to speed on how like the language we're using here. Um, >> but I I think that's important because I think a lot of and this this was me in the beginning. I think a lot of trainers it's maybe it's a maybe it's ego. Maybe it's that we want to assume that our training is good enough that we don't need to ask the owner to go back to always reinforcing their dog for the first little bit when the dog returns home. But just cuz you send the dog back into always help or the level one of the learning pyramids doesn't mean that the training never took place and got far far or was never developed. Right? It it just means that you're setting the dog up for success in the home of its owner, right? The the dog may be very well trained and may be in intermittent or or variable reward frequency with you as the trainer by the end of the program. Maybe if you've done a great job, maybe it's in stimulus control for certain behaviors. But the reason again to clarify, the reason you want the owner to be a source of always reinforcing is you need to keep that hope alive when the dog is going back home so that the behavior can generalize. That's how the the behavior generalizes. And then after a few weeks, the owner will probably gradually slip into, you know, intermittent rewarding or variable reward frequency on their own. like just out of just out of like being busy or forgetting or getting lazy, the dog will go into intermittent, but at least in the first part, they were rewarded so frequently by the owner that everything transitions back and it just it keeps that hope alive and it just builds that strength of behavior in their in their home environment. >> Yeah, exactly. Um they need and it again it goes back to what you said about it has they have to generalize. The dog has to generalize that this behavior can be reinforced here and by this person. Also, we should probably mention the dog must also be corrected for things that it needs to be corrected for going home, right? We're not just talking about always help like by reinforcement. We're always talking about always help by paying for

consequences for doing. So when it does something it's told to do, it gets a it gets a consequence, a positive consequence. Um consequences for not doing something it was told to do should also have a consequence consistently when it returns back home. Otherwise, the unwanted behavior creeps back in and the dog learns that, oh, this behavior is no longer or is not punished in this environment and I can get away with it. So when when dogs are going home from their board and trains back into the home of the the the dog owner or the pet owner, what I like to tell trainers that are, you know, doing board and trains for me is you hold the dogs uh if if it was trained on an e-collar, right? You're the one delivering the communication so that the timing doesn't change with the owner, right? Cuz sometimes timing and skill are going to vary between the trainer and the dog owner. So I like, you know, in the appointment where the dog is going home, let the dog owner handle the dog, set the dog up to like maybe make a mistake or or, you know, Bart calls it booby trap training where you're tempting the dog to misbehave so that it can like experience the consequences of failed behavior. And when it does make a mistake or chooses the wrong option, the trainer delivers the feedback to the dog through, you know, the the remote training collar and the dog senses the timing is just as good as it was during its training program with a trainer. And now it it projects that understanding onto its owner and says, "Oh, wow. even working for my owner, I still get the same timely um firm but fair consequence for for the mistake I just did. And that understanding is what also keeps the dog in line. It, you know, the reinforcement gives the hope, but the corrections keep the dog honest about uh being accountable to to cued behavior, right? >> Yeah. Well, that's it goes to communication and the dog understanding the same communication that it was taught in. >> Yeah. >> And the timing of the correction is is part of that. And which like you said, Neil, that first lesson back where the the trainer is controlling everything, it allows for the dog to generalize now with the owner. And then of course they're going to learn the owner's timing, but at least that gives it a a boost, a head start. >> Yeah. >> You know, so that then when the owner starts doing it on their own, even though it may be off, the dog still has an idea, oh, like this is still the same with my owner as it was before. >> Well, it's kind of the same concept of a mother language, right? its first experience with correction in that style with its owner once it's coming back.

That kind of sets the tone for future corrections. And now, like you said, even though the owner may mistime something, as long as it's still there, if the mother language was, "Oh, wow, that was really well timed." And I like the dog is kind of superstitious now and has that as its mother language and just kind of falls along with that understanding. the it's yeah it's the the the owner kind of speaking the same language maybe a little bit different but it's they're speaking a different accent >> yes a different accent or a different dialect. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> But the dog already understands so they they're they understand it faster >> than if they have never experienced that before. >> Yeah. And I I think that's these two ways like uh of setting a dog up for success. Like really again I think about it and I think a lot of it's just ego. We don't want to ac like we don't want to think oh we I don't want to tell the owner that he has to reward the dog every time because that's going to make my training look like I didn't do a good job in getting it to a variable reward frequency. But if you're good at explaining to the owner like, "Hey, the dog just needs to understand that there's still the promise of good things and the promise of consequences for for not doing." That's that's the most valuable thing is setting that understanding up in the dog as soon as he comes back. >> Yeah. But I also again the word consequences we understand it but I think some people think maybe most people think when they hear consequences they think of something bad. >> Yeah. >> Right. Because people use consequences as it's going to be something bad. But no, it's just it's not bad or good necessarily. It's just what is like if you sit this is what happens. If you don't sit, this is what happens. >> Yeah. It's just the outcome of of a certain event. >> Exactly. >> So, the consequence for getting an A in mathematics is probably happy parents, right? But the consequence for >> they say, "Why didn't you get an A+?" >> Well, let's let's let's just say an A is an A+. like, you know, um, scoring 10 out of 10 on your quiz gets you a positive consequence. You maybe your maybe your parents take you out to lunch or they give you, you know, like, you know, they give you a pat on the back. It's a good experience, right? But consequences for um for bad grade can be negative or punitive, right? Um, for some people, maybe they lose like Nintendo privileges or gaming privileges or, you know, whatever whatever they're going to do, right? however they're delivering consequences these days. Um but uh yeah, it's that's that's an important thing to point out is that

consequence may mean reinforcement, right? The consequence of a good behavior is reinforcement. Consequence of a bad behavior, generally speaking, is punishment. And punishment is not a nasty word. It's just it it's just describing an event that is designed to diminish the strength and frequency of a behavior happening in the future. That's all it is. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Interesting conversation. What are I I'm curious to know what are some of your other uh if you're if you're to make a list of top like five things pet owners need to know or should do better to be more successful with their dogs. What would you what are some other observations you've made about pet owners? You mentioned dog owners not delivering feedback the same way the trainer does, right? To the same like qualitative extent. Uh we've talked about ways to help owners generalize their dog's behavior when it comes back from a training program. Um what are what's some other ideas that you have or observations? >> The other thing that's there that I see pet owners are never taught ever is to communicate to the dog that they made a mistake. Um, and in the learning phase, in the learning process, I'm not talking about after the dog knows 100% what they should do, but they are not communicating to the dog that what they just did was a mistake. Right? For example, they say sit and the dog doesn't sit, but it's still in the the learning part, right? Where the dog doesn't 100% know to sit. they still need help somewhat. Um, the one thing that they're not taught is to to mark that behavior as wrong. It's not necessarily adding like doing a plus correction as we would say, right? But rather, it's more like a minus correction, like a non-reinforcement marker. So, you tell your dog to sit and they don't sit, it's telling them like wrong, uh-uh, nope. something in that moment. And once you marked it and told them they're wrong, right, you marked the behavior. There's some you're not getting reinforced for that. And then you can ask for it again. Now you can say sit again >> in that part. But what they do is they say sit. The dog doesn't sit. There's no communication that it was wrong. Then they go sit. And maybe they say it a third time and the dog finally sits. But usually the dog doesn't sit because it doesn't know the command and then they go help with the food, the hand signal, and then the dog understands. And then the other part, they're also a lot of times not taught like when the dog is still trying to learn this the the word sit. They're not taught to help after they give the command to help the dog into position, right? The always help part.

Uh, so they say, again, it goes back to that they say sit two or three times and then they help. So then the dog is not learning that the word means anything. They're just waiting for the the physical help, whatever it is. But those two things is the help into position and the help by telling them they're wrong, they made a mistake, and to try again. So you're you're talking about classically classically conditioned negative punishment. >> Yeah. >> Right. A cue that precedes the lack of reinforcement or or removal of a >> correct >> of a of an item of value. That's what you're talking about. >> Correct. >> If we're using the words of uh Skinner. >> Yeah. Exactly. So you mark that behavior which is >> and then then you can ask for it again. And again, the training all goes to what does a dog understand, right? Because you can't um you can't be strict for behavior unless you know for a fact the dog understands it 100%. >> Right. And can I let me ask you a question. Do you use the same classical marker for negative punishment that you would for positive punishment? No, I don't. >> So, you separate the two. >> Yeah. Because they have different meanings, >> right? >> Right. >> For for the sake of the viewership, you should I I I wanted to make sure that that was specified. Right. >> You'll be more successful. I I think it can still work because they're they're both forms of punishment, negative punishment or positive punishment. But I think the dog becomes more clear and you'll have better outcomes when you have specific classically conditioned markers for both quadrants, positive punishment or negative punishment. So like and and that's the important thing too, right Mike? is like if you're a dog owner and you're you tell your dog to sit and you you're you know that the dog relatively knows it pretty well and the dog doesn't sit, you would say like uh-uh or nope and the dog does not get the reinforcer or the reinforcement is taken away. The dog will then understand and then you can reset and ask it again and he will know, oh, because I didn't get that. The reason I didn't get that is because I failed to sit when I when I was told to sit. Right? >> But the important thing for dog owners is that they must be consistent. You can't say nope one time and then uh-uh the next, right? Like, and then if you mix those two, if you say nope for positive punishment and then nope for like again, yeah, we just want to be clear to the dog. The more clear you are to the dog, the faster they pick up on what we're trying to get them to do. >> Exactly. Yeah. And that's what it's about is being clear on did is a dog doing the correct thing or

is a dog doing the wrong thing. So it's very clear that they're doing the wrong thing. Um, and if you do it well, you your dog will change will understand that they did a mean mistake and they will reset themselves. >> Yeah. Because at the end of the day, right, and we learned this in Napo Poe, right, it's it's one of the the seven bullet points like the answer to the penultimate question of dog training. Why does a dog do anything? Right? The answer is to better its own situation. If we think about it that way, like some people say, "Oh, the dog wants to always wants to please or wants to do this." Like it always wants to please itself. And if you and if you're looking at the dog's behavior thinking, "Oh, why did he do that?" It's because he he did that because that thing was the best option for himself in that moment. You understand? And you can make sense of the behavior so much so much more easily. >> Yeah. It's it's if you think about it that way and also think about like especially for pet people when your dog does something you should analyze it and say well why did he do that? Is it something that I did to cause it? Right? Have I established a pattern some kind of pattern that dog is following? You know, do when he does this thing, do I always do this other thing? You know, has he learned that he nudges my arm? Do I always pet him? All right. Then he will always nudge your arm if he wants you to pet him, if you want something. So, it it's all about watching the behavior because um I think Pat Stewart, I heard it from him where he said, "If your dog has no no other job all day than just sit there and study you. They watch and study you. They study your every move, >> right? >> To see how they can get what they want." >> Yeah. Well, I mean, if you think about it, like it dog training is like creating Stockholm syndrome in dogs, right? Like if you view it that way, like I know some people would be offended like, "Oh, my dog is not my my prisoner, right?" But like technically they the the dynamic is that that same dynamic. you they you keep them in a kennel or in the walls of your four home the four walls of your home and you control the access to everything food water recreation freedom right so so it's a very similar dynamic obviously like you know without the the negative connotations um and if they're in their kennel they are observing you like what brings you to them what brings you what what pushes you away from them right like it's all it's all things that they're learning Yeah. And then that's the thing. And then you use use those things to get, you know, the dog to do what you want. But where they think that they're

getting what they want. They're controlling you, the bimbo, as Bart would say. >> Be the bimbo. We had someone we had someone on that episode where we were walking through the terms of Napo Poe and some of the phrases use the colloquialisms um or bartisms as as they really are. Um someone commented and said, "Hey, I I've been doing I've been saying it this way, but call saying it uh being saying be the bimbo for your dog is so much better way to put it." So yeah, >> but yeah, that's I mean if you think about it, it's just it's trying to manipulate behavior in a way the dog will understand and in a way where the dog wants to do, you know, the things you're trying to teach it. >> Yeah. >> Yep. I'm trying to think um any other obvious or real quick tips that will benefit pet owners who are looking to have better behavioral outcomes with their dogs or just better living with their pets. >> [snorts] >> What are I'm trying to think what I mean we've I think we've hit on a lot of >> just uh I tell people narrate the life of your dog in the beginning. So if you're going out the back door into the backyard right as you're walking out right before you step out say outside or say backyard. Then when you're coming back inside say inside. Right? When you're everything you do, just if you're going to put on the leash, right? Say leash. If you're going to put on the collar, say collar. Just say it before you do it. And just over repetition. You don't have to wait for your dog to do it. Just over repetition. Your dog will start to put it together. Say, "Oh, every when you say this word, that means we're going to go outside in the backyard. When you say this word, that means we're going back inside the house." Right? When you say this word, >> stand still so you can put my collar on. I know the collar is coming off, right? Or you say harness or vest, you know, people that put a harness on. But whatever it is, just narrate to your dog what's happening before, right before or as it's happening. And your dog will start to pick up on those words if you're consistent. and you just train them over time without having to do multi like you're doing multiple reps but you're not sitting there as a session. >> Yeah. It's just lifestyle training. >> Yeah. It's just you're doing it as you're using it and the dogs just pick they they learn it. >> Yeah. And and they learn it because >> Oh, and this is the other thing. Don't in the beginning don't talk to your dog in sentences in the beginning. later it doesn't matter. They'll pick up. But >> the beginning to make it simple, just say one word. >> Right? Don't say let's go let's go in the backyard

one because you're going to change it. You're going to say it differently every single time. [clears throat] >> But if you just keep it to just the word backyard, backyard, [clears throat] >> inside or outside. >> Yeah. Whatever it is, just keep it to one word in the beginning and then later you can add all that other stuff to it and it'll be like the Homer Simpson. There was Homer Simpson episode, the Simpsons episode. Homer was like he's there and people with a bunch of people and they're all talking and they switch to what his brain like what he's hearing. >> Uhhuh. >> And he's just hearing Homer. He was just picking up like his name and that's it. >> But all the other stuff was just like gibberish. >> Uhhuh. >> Couldn't make out what they're saying. And then he would hear Homer and he's like, "Oh, they're talking about me." The dog, I think, is the same way. When you're saying all this stuff, they're not they're not understanding all the words except for the few that you have repeated. >> Uhhuh. And mostly they're just going off of your tone and your like body language rather than all these words you're saying. And they may pick up that one word, the outside, but it's the tone. All the other stuff is like because you're going, "Do you want to go outside?" Right. You get that you could say anything. >> Yeah. >> In that moment and because of your tone and the word outside, they'd be like, "Oh, we're going outside. Yeah. >> Everything else could be in different language, >> right? That's so funny. Homer Simpson. >> I can't. This is years ago. I never >> classic American cartoon right there for you. >> I watched enough so I know what it is, but I didn't watch like >> If you can find that find that clip. Uh >> I have no idea. I just remember that part. >> Maybe chat GBT can help you find it. We should uh we'll post that for our viewers. >> [snorts] >> Yeah, that'd be funny. >> Yeah, that's the thing. It's like your dog will learn by your repetitions, >> right? Which which again, and it's not just it's not just learning your words if you're consistent in your approach to life. Like if you feed them at the same time in the same place, like for example, a dog that doesn't want to go go to its crate has hard time going to its crate. doesn't like its crate very much. You can learn to send a dog to its crate by taking advantage of meal time, like feed it in its kennel. Or maybe in the morning you go open the door to the kennel, dog comes out, you let it into the backyard to go potty, do its business, run around, stretch its legs, and while it's out there, you set some you set a bowl of food in the back of the kennel. And

then when it's time for the dog to come back in and maybe you've gone on your walk or something and time for it to eat, you go in and then the dog discovers that there's a bowl of food that magically appeared in the back of my kennel. >> It goes in there and then the next time it does that if that if you're consistent with that, it be it be it builds this superstition. It's this it's the ball in the armpit idea over and over again, >> right? It's >> and yeah, you can and you can do it two ways. Um, you can either put it in there secretly so the dog does not know, right? So the dog goes outside then you put the bull in there and then when you the bring the dog back in then they will all a sudden discover yeah, hey, there's a reward for me in the crate, >> right? Or you can create a little bit more too. You can do it where you go there, let the dog out of the crate, and then they see you with the bowl, you put it in there, close the door to the crate, >> and don't let him get to it. >> And then don't let them get to it, and then take them outside, do whatever. And then what'll happen is when you open that back door, the dog will run inside to the crate and like be waiting for you to open the door. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> You know, so there's like different ways to do it. And you can transfer that to everything. It doesn't have to be just uh just the crate. >> If you're consistent in the things that you do, patterns, this is the like the ritual, right? this is how we go on walks. That's how you're going to get a dog to cue on certain things or behaviors and become like they they kind of start reading your mind a little bit and they get ready for the next thing that they see you preparing for and they start to fall in line with oh if I'm if we're going here I need to be in this state of mind or if I'm going there or doing this activity I need to be in that state of mind or have this energy level right and they they they'll adapt and prepare themselves for the activity because they see you doing that and they but they can only do that if you've been consistent in the way that you are leading up to those those activities. >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] That's why just just keep doing them the same way every day and your dog will learn, >> right? Um unless it's a English bulldog. >> I don't know. We went when I one of my first doins where we didn't know how to do the ears to wrap the ears to coat the ears. We used to go to this vet that was really good um every week and they specialized in English bulldogs. >> Cool. >> And the vet actually said how stupid the modern English bulldogs was were >> as opposed to what they used to be.

He just said they were just stupid. They was the most stupid dog he'd ever dealt with. >> Uhhuh. >> And then I I had my friend had an English bulldog and it it was like six years old. It did not recognize its name. >> What does that say about their owners? >> I don't know. May it's if the dog is stupid, it doesn't matter how good the owners are. That's >> I don't know. Maybe you need that in English bulldog. >> Make sure it's an actual bulldog and not like a a pity like a an XL an XL pity, right? Instead of a bulldog. >> Oh, man. >> Yeah. Well, good stuff, man. That's >> I think that's good. >> Yeah, that was good. >> Good chat. Um, so again, just to to close, right, I think this was geared more towards the pet owner. I think there's a lot of value in in the information discussed for pet owners, dog trainers. Um, if there's something that you can incorporate, like that's going to help you be more successful, like the adjustment and transition for dogs coming from a board and train back into the owner's home, like make use of it and let us know how it's working for you. Or if you do something similar already, um, let us know if that, uh, you know, we just want to hear about it. And >> I noticed, and I mentioned this to Michael, um, the majority of our viewers are not subscribed to the channel. >> What do you have to say about that? >> Yeah, I was wondering, I always see people that with other other videos, people would always say that. And I was like, and I didn't know how bad how bad it can be, meaning how many people listen but don't subscribe. I think it was like 20 some percent 20 some% of our listeners you said are subscribed and the other 70ome percent are not. >> Yeah. So just under 30% are subscribed while 71% are not subscribed who who actually tune in and listen to the uh to the podcast. So do yourself a favor and just hit the subscribe button. Just click it just for the heck of it. See what happens. And um you know uh I I promise this this podcast will not spam you because we get about one podcast out a month. Um so you will not be spammed by our ourh podcast. I promise. Um [clears throat] >> yep it's it'll be there. Uh but yeah it's it would it definitely help to get it out to more people if more people were subscribed. I guess that pushes it out to more people. Um, but yeah, I was surp I I was surprised to hear that number that you told me that it was only 20ome percent. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Subscribe. Subscribe and follow. I forget what people say. Subscribe and follow. >> Hit the like. Share and subscribe button. >> Yeah. Share too to everybody. Just you can spam everybody with our podcast. [laughter]

>> Do it for us. Um, you know what's funny is we had someone comment on our podcast and they said that um the first seven minutes of the of the podcast was like us talking about a certain topic when and both Michael and I we went back and listened to the first like seven minutes of the podcast and it was completely unrelated to the thing that we were being accused of talking about. And uh we just invited that person to keep listening. But uh yeah, like like, share, follow, uh hit the subscribe button for sure, and comment. Yeah, comments are great. We love to hear from people. Let us know like what makes sense, what doesn't make sense. I know a lot of the terms we use are very like technical and on lease from from like the NAPO schools, like silver and gold. So, we do have podcast episodes that go through and explain the terminology that we use here. So, if you haven't listened to all of our podcasts, it's worth your while to go back and tune in to to the previous episodes um because that'll paint a lot more context for you there and answer a lot of the questions about maybe the terminology we're using about the levels, the pyramids, the quadrant, all things modern dog training. >> Exactly. Hit the like button, [laughter] share, follow, >> and if you want to hit it and and and like make the little sound that uh Caesar makes, you know, you can like buzz the button if you want to like however you want to hit that button, just just hit it. So, anyways, um thanks again for tuning in, guys. Mike, it's been a good conversation. Thanks for chatting. >> Awesome. Talk to you soon. >> Okay. Yeah, we'll talk soon. Thanks.