E160: 로라 워드비, 헤더 로슨, 앤 스모라도 - "TEAM과 함께하는 가상 타이틀 취득"

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not, a lot of handlers will go ahead anyway. You know, I hear at a lot of trials, probably every trial I'm at when the novice ring, I'll hear handlers say, well, my dog's not really ready for this, but, you know, and they're going forward. So, with virtual titling, or at least with team, you don't ever have to do that. You know, if you, you know, put a date out there for yourself to put the rigor in, you know, you can erase it if your dog's not ready. You know, and I think that's a really beautiful thing with that. Laura? When virtual titling first came out, I was really apprehensive about it. It kind of made sense to me for people who had like reactive dogs who couldn't handle the trial environment itself, or if there like weren't any local trials in your area. But I honestly didn't really see the appeal for a lot of other teams. I kind of just pictured it as a way of people who wanted to put a whole bunch of title at the end of their dog's name, and then not really do a lot else. But then kind of as it kept coming on the scene, and I saw more people do it, I really saw how it could keep people motivated and doing stuff with their dogs. Just as Ann was saying, even when kind of without that, with that clear end date set in stone, you could still work towards things and get motivated to actually finish each trick. Like I know like, so even like just like the trick titles out there. I know I like teaching a lot of things, but I don't really put them on stimulus control and on cue. And so this can be a way to kind of, or you know, get out of your house and do some fun training outside, whether it's, you know, trick or parkour. There's so many online titles nowadays. So mainly, I tend to see it as a way to keep people motivated to actually do stuff with their dogs, and as a way to test more like the skills of your training versus testing how well you are at prepping your dog for trial environments. I know it's really hard for people to prep for trial environments. We have a lot of classes on FDSA through that, but that tends to be the hardest part for most teams. And so this can be a way to really, do you know how to train those skills? And can you kind of still show off to the world that your dog can at least do it, even if they can't quite do it in a different environment yet? So in that sense, I've come to really kind of embrace the online titling atmosphere. Yeah, Heather here. Sorry, just to jump in on what Laura was saying, too, is that there's a huge cost factor if you're doing trials in person, right? You've got to travel,

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you might have to do hotels, you know, you got food, you got gas, you got everything like that. Whereas with a virtual titling, you can do it right in your backyard. And so the only cost basically there is maybe your equipment. And most everybody has a has an iPhone or a phone of some sort. And and just your your submission for your test video, right? So it can be a lot less expensive in in that way, and therefore allows you to do more things with your dog. Especially because you only pay when you actually submit it and not the 500 times that you failed before that. Yeah, been there done that. Exactly, exactly. What about the team program specifically? What are the strengths of the program? And, you know, it's structured in a way to help handlers, trainers, actually really prepare their dog for, you know, an in person trial, because it really makes you think about learn the good habit of reading the rules and understanding them, being more precise in your training. Because whereas like in in like an AKC event, you know, straight, straight fronts are still important. But, you know, you get a deduction, it's, you're not going to get the exercise, not qualifying for it. But in team, you really have to think about all those details and tend to them. And you really have to know the rules and do everything correctly. And so I found for myself, as I took my older dog through it, it really improved my habits of training, reading rules, thinking about it, like thinking about what I really need to do. So I think that's a real strength with team in particular. Laura? I always recommend that my in-person students check out the team program, even if they have zero interest in submitting the online titles. And the main reason for that is because so many people get really lost in training for obedience and rally, as they don't know what the end picture is. If you haven't done it before, you don't really know all the little stuff to train. And you're just thinking about all that novice healing. And you don't really know how to start everything else. And so I really like that team gives you a roadmap. It's very black and white. So the people who need that structure, it's like, you're going to train this and this and that. And then here are your precision goals. And like even if Anne was saying, you don't have to care about exactly what style. But it's going to give you behaviors that will hold up once you start to add the distance, the distractions. And then team also works on reducing the cookies you give to your dogs,

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all the things you don't actually think about. And then as personally, we haven't designed basically the exact way I want to prep my own puppy, the way that I am prepping little Ren right now with the skills to need a high level. So it's not just let's heal in a circle and do some fronts, but little tiny baby go outs, scent articles, all those little tiny pieces. So it's way more fun for people than just working on those novice skills. I can absolutely agree with what both Anne and Laura said. And it adds a complexity in small sort of increments in all four of the areas, right, which is your dog and handler teams. So the difficulty of the skills gradually gets harder and harder, right, the challenges in the form of reducing the food, you know, we start out with Yeah, we can reward lots in team one, and then it gets finally to the point where there's nothing. And then finally, too, because we're requiring them to submit in different locations, you get that, you know, distraction and challenge, they get sort of a trial environment without the official trial environment, because we are asking them to change locations and work under different circumstances for the titling. The other thing, too, is that not only can team be applied to sports, I use a lot of the team exercises in my in person pet dog training, too. So it's a good way to get people who are maybe a little bit old, like Laura said, a little bit lax on their, you know, pet manners training, making it more fun for them to do the training by putting them in through the team side of it. So it goes into both aspects of, you know, the sport dog person and the kind of the pet dog person that applies all across the board, really. So you're all kind of pretty involved in the program on an ongoing basis. I'd love to talk a little bit about the common mistakes or issues students kind of run into when they're training for their team titles. Laura? The biggest mistake I tend to see on the Facebook group is a ton of over-testing. So maybe like their dog does have really nice level one skills when you practice, you know, in your pristine environment and the dog, hey, you know, because several reps in a row, the same thing at once. But it's not the same thing as the dog doing the formal test with everything on the first try. You know, no warm-up, a ton of formality from the handler. And then the dog makes a little mistake for the test and the handler restarts and they restarts and then they film again the very next day. And then we see so many reports of people being burned out and frustrated with not passing. And so I would

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highly recommend testing no more than once a week. And honestly, if you do that twice and you still fail, then take several weeks not testing and just training. I mean, I recommend training, always looking at the next level to see where the skill is going. So not just training your level one, but maybe you're at level two for some things, maybe at level three for other behaviors, but like really, really challenging the dog's understanding so that when you do go back to testing, you actually do pass and you don't just keep doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results the next time. Right, right. I'm so glad you mentioned the Facebook group because I was thinking about that and writing up the questions and there wasn't something where it sort of felt natural to bring it up. For those who are listening who aren't familiar with it, can you just for two seconds, just plug what the group is, Laura? Yeah, I love the Facebook group. Anybody can join. You don't have to be a FENZ student. You don't have to be registered for a team. So absolutely anybody can join. You can post your training questions. A lot of people will post their videos on there, whether it's their actual run-throughs of the test or whether just their training. But you can basically chat about whoever you want, chat about how to make props, and just a really good way for people to kind of cheer each other on and help each other. Sure. Yeah. And so the name of the group for those listening is FENZ Team Players. And it should come up if you do a Facebook search for it. Heather, do you want to kind of pick up where Laura left off? Well, actually, Laura's just kind of made the same point that I was going to make. And that was that people get stuck doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result and not really taking a look at why something maybe isn't working. They're only training to that point. And then they get to that point and they say, okay, well, this is good enough. And good enough is good enough sometimes. But if you then don't take it that little bit of extra stretch and make sure that you're not perfect, nobody's perfect. But if the dog doesn't have it, then when you go to the next level, you're going to run into even more problems. So you got to make sure that, you know, when you're training for a title, that you're not just stopping at that one particular thing that you can sort of see beyond where you currently are. And sometimes that's hard for people when they're first getting into something like this, they don't, they don't see it. And that's

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where our job, Laura's and mine anyways, as FENZ instructors is to say, okay, well, this is where this exercise takes you. And this is why we're asking you to do this. And this is why we need you to do this. So, you know, if they can at least look beyond just the single simple one exercise and see that it does going to, it is going to take them further, then I think that's going to actually make their whole training for the title even that much better. Anne? A mistake I think that I, or what trips some people up is maybe at first blush, they look at it and they see, okay, my dog has to be able to do these 10 things to get the title. And, you know, kind of this just thought process that says, well, I can demonstrate that my dog can do the 10 things. And yes, you know, you have to demonstrate that the dog can do the 10 things, but it's more than that. You know, the dog has to be able to do the 10 things and you're, you know, you need to be able to chain the 10 things into one single event, which, you know, isn't always all that easy because, you know, the dog has to stay somewhat engaged with you for four or five minutes while you're moving equipment around and doing all of that, that, all of that. So it's, you know, they're not off work in between basically really. And then I think, as I mentioned earlier, is, is there's a lot of handling that needs to be done correctly as well? So my dog can fly around a cone, right? I was able to show you that, but yeah, but we, you got to send them from your left side, you know, that's the rule. And you could argue that that's a dumb rule, but it's the rule, you know? So there's all of that that goes into it too. And so I think that that is a mistake that some people can make going into it that can frustrate them when all of a sudden they're trying to test and they've are suddenly discovering that it's not just a matter of the dog can do 10 things. Yeah. The dog can do the behaviors individually, but when you're actually asking them to do one after the other, after the other. Correct. Different story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then all the things that you need to know. Right. Yeah. Right. I was gonna say there's a certain amount of fluency on the part of the handler too, during a run, just being able to kind of know what the thing coming up next is. Right. And so you're not constantly checking your nose to be like, Oh wait, what exercise am I doing next? That too. Yep. Uh-huh. Yeah. And there's some really great charts that are also on the Facebook group,

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I think on the website too, they have like those picture diagrams. And hopefully you've memorized it, but you can still look at a glance. Oh, this is next. And then this is next without having to like sit down and read in the middle of your training test. Yeah. Oh yes. I mean, they, those diagrams are absolutely a must because it, you know, even take it and pull it off and, and blow it up so that you can just stick it on your wall. And it's a great visual because you don't need to know all the rules and all the things. Just a quick reminder, like Laura said, it is, is fantastic because it helps you then keep the rhythm in, in whatever it is that you're doing. And it doesn't leave a lot of leg time for your, for your dog. Right. So definitely, definitely got to go to the team website and pull off those exercise sheets for sure. So what about when students are in the process of videoing their run, are there issues they run into that, you know, make their exercises questionable or not yet that they could avoid if they just did a little extra prep work? Heather? Actually, you know, if you just mark out the space that you're going to be using so that you can ensure that the camera is going to work for where you're going to be standing. And if you just, you know, mark it out, put some tape on the corner so that you know that if you step out of that corner, you're going to be off camera because there's nothing worse than having a beautiful run, but you keep going off camera and then it becomes questionable. Like, okay, why is she going off camera all the time? Or why is the dog going off camera all the time? The other thing too is, is having your equipment set up off to the side and ready to go in the order that you were probably going to be using it. Right. If you can, that takes a lot of stress off of you. If you say, okay, here's number one exercise, number two exercise, number three exercise, boom, boom, boom. And you're going. The other thing too, is make sure you don't cut your head off. Okay. We have to see all of you. Um, can't just focus on the dog. And something that I always suggest that people do is actually do a dry run, but kind of without your dog and then videotape it and see where, you know, where you would be and where that, cause you don't want to do a session and then find out that, Oh, I should have not put the dog there. If you can use like a fake stuffed dog and put them in the spots that they're supposed to be in, then you got a good chance of understanding whether or not your video is going

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to actually work for when you, uh, sub in your, in your real dog. Right. And what about you? Well, you, you, you sort of stole mine or at least there, as I said, you know, like I always tell my students and I see their eyes glaze over whenever I tell them is to practice your run without your dog and video it, you know, at least once, at least once. And then, you know, watch the video and you can see if your head's cut off, if you're, if you're, you know, going out of the frame and, you know, you don't have to watch it in normal time. You can speed it up. Like when you're watching your dry run, you don't have to watch five minutes of you handling an invisible dog. But, but I can't tell you how many times I've done dry runs, you know, when I was getting ready to do my test with Hartley and get out there and find out that I didn't have something I needed, you know, like a dumbbell or something. I'm like, Oh, the next thing's the retrieve. Oh, gee, my dumbbell is still out in my car. You know? So, you know, it's, it's really useful because one, you do, you know, you do know that you have all your equipment in the order that you're going to use it, or, you know, you know, that it's all there. I've also discovered when I'm doing my dry runs, Oh, this spot right here, isn't such a great place for me to keep that jump post. I should maybe put it over here because that didn't work so smoothly. And, you know, and by the time you, you've done a dry run, by the time you bring your dog in, you're pretty, you're a lot more confident because you know what you're going to do and where you're going to be. And I also always tell my students who also do rally and agility, like you, you wouldn't dream of running your dog in an agility run without, without your eight minute walk, where you walked and practiced, or same thing in rally. So why would you do this without doing your dry run without your dog? You know, it just doesn't make sense. So that's my biggest piece of advice. I like that. I like the analogy to the agility walkthroughs and, and yeah, rally walkthroughs too. Cause I think that just makes more sense for people, right? Like why logically you do that? Well, of course, if you have the chance to walk through the course before you start, you're going to take it. So why don't you do that for yourself? Yeah. Yeah. And if you ever come across a handler and I've been that handler where I missed my, my walkthrough before agility or rally, I'm like, Oh my God, am I going to be able to do this? You know? No, that's the same thing. I mean,

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what do you do at an obedience trial? You watch the pattern, you watch where the judge sets up, you watch where the figure eights are set up, you watch all these different types of things. Personally, I don't watch where the halts are because I don't want to have any anticipation, but that's what you do anyways. Right. So you might as well. They actually kind of reminded me of when you're looking to see where everything is set up and if you're actually in the camera, also think about your position. So you're not blocking the camera. I can't tell you how many times I've stood directly in front of the camera and they can't even see my dog. They can only see me. So think about that. And then the other thing along those, the camera stuff too, then is try to set it up so the judge can actually see the angles they need to judge. So for heel and front, it works so much better if you're directly facing the camera so that the judge can actually see, is this dog parallel with you for heel or are they, you know, within that 30 degree range for front and heel back up? You know, it's kind of nice. There's a side view to see if the dog actually went that distance. So just kind of think about what is really being judged here and is the judge able to do that from your camera angles? Exactly, Laura. Exactly. So many times you think, oh, okay, I can see that you're off angle because you have a patterned carpet that's got squares in the line so I can actually see it. But it would be really nice to be able to see you straight on and make sure that I'm viewing you correctly. So absolutely, you got to make sure that what is being judged, so to speak, is actually visual to the judges. Oh, and then the other thing to kind of think about too is if you haven't ever done it before, I highly recommend that again, you post to the team Facebook group. So post your video so others can watch it and tell you where you're wrong and get that handling and play because I'll get it almost always handler errors. And then we also have the pre-level titles that are phenomenal for giving you advice too. So like team, like the pre-level one, you only need to pass like I think six of the ten exercises. And the judges are very, very thorough in giving you advice too. So they'll catch things that you didn't know about and then give you tiny bits of advice on how to fix it. I mean, obviously, they're not seeing you really doing your training session, so the advice is limited. But it's incredibly helpful for the students who have done the pre-levels to get that advice from the judges

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themselves on what to fix for the next time. Yeah, because I think sometimes the people don't really want to submit the team one because they're so nervous and so afraid. But when once they submit like a pre-level and they get kind of that opportunity to get feedback, they go, oh, okay, that wasn't so bad after all, right? And I really actually didn't do as bad as I thought it was going to do. And then it gives them confidence to continue on and submit more videos, right? And then finally do their team one or team two or team three test. So the pre-level is excellent, Laura. I forgot all about that. Yeah, that's a good one. I also want to add that the pre-level isn't quote unquote less. I know I've come across some people like, I don't want to do the pre. I want to wait until I can get the full team one. And a one P is not really a lesser title, in my opinion. We realize that, you know, getting 10 things right is a lot. Getting six things right is a lot, you know, for a novice, you know, dog and handler. So I would just really encourage people to not look at, you know, going for the pre-level as, you know, something lesser. It's a title to be proud of and feel really good about. And then, you know, next time you'll get all that advice, you'll get more confidence. And then, you know, and then you go on to the to the level one. Yeah, I know some people do think that it's a lesser title, but it's really not, especially if you've never done a dog sports kind of situation or trial situation before, right? It's a really great way to get your feet wet and understand the process and understand what's what is required and then be able to put that P1 on the, you know, on your dog's title list, right? Why not go for it? I think it's a fabulous option. One of you brought kind of brought up this idea that a lot of the time errors are handler related. So our dogs typically perform as they're trained to perform, but us, you know, the people were much harder to train. So I want to kind of talk about that a little bit. What, what kind of things do you guys commonly see that handlers should pay attention to when it comes to themselves when videoing or submitting a run? And you want to start us off this time? Oh, I could probably name three of them, but I'm not going to hog them all. The one I am going to talk about is the pauses. That's a huge one, you know, so at level one, we only really have one pause that's at the very end. The stay with distraction, you know, requires a two second pause before you release the dog. Then when you get to level two,

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there's a lot of pauses all of a sudden. And, you know, when the rule says, you know, it needs to be a two second pause, it means a two second pause. And, you know, two seconds is a long time. When you're, when you're waiting, they're really super important because if your ultimate goal is to go in, say the AKC obedience ring or CKC, or, you know, where there's a judge, you know, you don't get to set your dog up for say a recall, stay, walk across, turn around, call them and finish. You have to wait for the judge to tell you that you can leave your dog and that you can call your dog and that you can finish your dog. So those are all those pauses are in there. And if you don't include those pauses in your training, your dog's going to anticipate, you're not going to wait. So those pauses are put in team to really help us be better trainers to prepare our dogs for the pauses that are going to happen in a real life trial. They're in those exercises for a reason. And I often see handlers, you know, I'm sitting there, I'm doing the count. I'm like one, 100, two, and then they release their dog to the end. And I'm like, Oh, now I'm going to look at the counter. And did they really wait two seconds to let the dog go? So it's a really easy handler error to avoid. Just count a long time in your head. You know, if it's two seconds, I say count to three 100 slowly and then let your dog go. So that's a big one. Laura, I was going to do pauses too, just because that was the hardest one that people suck at in training. And then our dogs, it's really hard to do nothing. Thanks, Anne, for bringing that up. Because yeah, we want to prevent anticipation. And we want to get rid of that Nancy dancing feet too. So I'll go with the handler body language. Oh, darn you. That was going to be mauling. Okay, go for it. So shoulders turned into the dog shoulder help is probably one of the biggest problems we'll see actually through all the levels. But especially level one, when the dogs are still learning, we like to always turn our shoulders huge to the left. Anytime we want our dog's butt to get in to get them further rotated into heel position. And while that does work, it's a big no no for team. But even like just for training, it's really going to screw up your training guys, because the dog isn't really learning where proper heel position is. So when your shoulders do become straight, your dog's going to be forged and wrapped around in front of you. And they just will always need that shoulder help. So try really, really hard. And then make sure you're videotaping your practice

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too. Because you will see yourself doing it all the time when you really thought that you were doing such a good job of keeping your shoulders straight. So shoulder help is probably the biggest error I see handlers make and actually submitting their test levels. Heather, did they leave you something? Yes, they did. Start position. All the exercises have a starting position. Know what it is. Because if you don't, an otherwise beautiful run is going to go down the drain real quick. Okay. So for instance, you're in level one, you've got your fine front position, you've got to start with the dog in front. That is where you bring your dog to front. And then you do your your two tosses, your straight and your angled. Same thing with your fine heel, your dog must start in heel position. And then you do your tosses. If you're doing the backup, you need to bring your dog to the front, pause, and then give your cue, because we want to make sure that your dog is going to wait for the cue to back up. So if you call your dog front, and then they're still in motion, and you cue back up, that's kind of makes it questionable as to whether or not you're just anticipating the fact that your dog's going to automatically reverse. So make sure that you're doing that. Make sure that you're not making things more complicated than they really need to be. Okay, take a look at the demo videos on the FENC team website. That's what they're there for, so that you understand how the exercise is to be completed. And then you have a really good idea as to to what's expected. And then if that's what you see, then that's what you train for. Because the more you make the judges, or me think, and Laura is judging, and Ann's judging, the more you make us think, the more trouble you're going to get into. Okay, so make sure that you're have all your starting points right off the bat. Okay. And then you should be good. And thanks to Ann, all those demo videos, I think were all recently redone. So they actually sold lots of good training on the website. So you can actually see what it's supposed to look like. Exactly, exactly. Like, if you're not sure what it's supposed to look like, go and look. That's what it's there for. That's what all that work we went into for team so that you would have an understanding as to what is considered a pass. And that is so important. Because if you go in there doing something, and sometimes somebody will give you advice and say, well, this, you know, I got a pass with that, or I got this, or I got that. That's that person on that day with under that judge. And

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that might not necessarily be what's going to happen with you. Okay, you're going to get a different judge, you're going to have a different perspective, you're going to have a whole thing, just like in obedience or any other sport. Okay, it's what happens on that day, under that judge. So make sure that you're going as much to the rules and as much to the actual format of that exercise as you can. Don't get creative. Did they hit everything that you mentioned at the beginning, Anne? You said you had three things originally. We covered it all? Yes, they did. Okay. Well, throughout, held signals in there is another one. Oh, yes. A lot of people will, you know, keep their hand, keep their hand out to make sure the dog is lying all the way down, even if they're holding it there for several seconds. And so a signal has to be continuous. So put it out and put it right back to your side. In general, hands always go back to your side and let the dog's in heel position. I got one more thing to add. Sorry. The other thing I was going to add was don't rush through the exercises. So often you see the dogs that the handler goes from one exercise to the next exercise, and they barely let the dog get set up in position and then they're off and running again. And the poor dog can do their, can do the job. You can see the dog can do the job, but the handler hasn't given them enough time to check in and focus and get ready for that exercise. So then, you know, you got some question. Well, I know the dog can do it, but you didn't help support your dog that much. Yeah. You got to give them a chance to kind of get their head in what we're doing now. Yeah, exactly. So in the early levels of team, platforms and equipment play kind of a big role. Do you have any tips for team competitors when it comes to choosing the right equipment for the job and kind of making sure that they're using it in the right ways? Laura? I love that team requires certain types of targets through in the early levels because it really forces dogs to be in the correct position and for handlers to really see what the dog is doing. So first, I'm just very grateful that team actually requires it. There's a couple different dimensions we can talk about with equipment size. And so I'll just pick height and let the others tackle some of the other dimensions. One error that I see in equipment with the dog first learning is that it's just way too low and the dog doesn't actually understand their job is to get their feet even on it. So like a lot of people like to use the foam puzzle flooring as platforms, which is a fantastic

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way to make a platform and really light and cheap and easy to make. But just one or two layers is not going to cut it if you have a baby dog who doesn't really know about platforms yet. So make it taller. It does not have to be super tall. I mean, some people will try to use like a climb with the legs on and that's huge. That's not really what we want to see. But just a few inches more off the ground can make a really big difference for dogs actually caring about the equipment and learning that it matters. It can help you get that nice tuck set pretty easily. And then once a dog kind of learns what they're doing, you can pretty easily lower the size back down if you want to. But if your dog doesn't know it, go ahead and just add several inches to the equipment. And that should help a lot in getting your dog to actually notice that something's there versus like a half inch of flooring that the dog doesn't even see. Heather? In team one, we get a lot of people who are just new to possibly using platforms and so forth. And the actual dimensions are extremely important so that when you're first teaching your dog, you just want them to get on a platform. It can be almost any size, preferably about three to four inches tall. So you want to get them magnetized that platform. They don't have to have a cue on that platform. Nothing. It's just the presence of the platform means get on it. Four feet on it. Generally, you're better to start with a default stand on that. And once your dog is able to stand on it, and they, you know, no matter what you do with that platform, you can hardly take it away from them. Then when you're starting to work on precision, that's where it's so important to have the narrow platforms. Because technically, when your dog is on that platform with all four feet, they're correct. Okay, no matter what position they are with those four feet, they are correct. So you need to start to take that platform. And this ties in with what Laura was saying about height, is you double height your platform, so that when your dog is now learning the precision, they understand when they're not quite on it, and when they're they need to adjust. And you can then actually let the platform and the narrowness of it, the precision of the platform, adjust the dog for you versus you constantly adjusting the dog. Because if you constantly adjust a dog on too wide a platform, you're basically always telling them that they're, they're wrong. And technically, they're not, right? It's us that are wrong, because we haven't given them that narrow precision in order to place

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themselves. Once they understand where they're supposed to be, then we go back down to normal height of a platform, which is, again, generally about, you know, two and a half, three, actually, I prefer three inches myself. And then you're off to the races. What people forget is that they need to take a look at the platform or the target or whatever they're using, and how it's going to affect their end goal behavior. So for instance, if you're doing a foot target, and you're wanting to have the dog's lineup center in front of you, you're not going to use a three foot plank, right, that's about four inches wide. That's too much room, too much variation for your dog to line up on, right? You're going to use one that's just barely wide enough for them to put the front paws on so that that foot target is in front of you. So choosing the right equipment for the right job, just like you wouldn't necessarily use a square foot target for your pivots, right? You can't go around, you can't pivot in a circle around a square. It just doesn't really work that well. You've got to think about what your your the goal behaviors and what you're trying to teach. So that's my thing. Ann? Oh, find a carpenter. That's my tip. Really everything that Laura and Heather said, the pivot discs are pretty easy, you know, because a couple sizes are going to be, you know, right for most dogs, you know, you need a pretty small one for little dogs and kind of a medium or bigger one for big dogs. But you know, a lot of different sized dogs can use the same size pivot disc or bowl, you know, but those platforms have to be custom. And when you're first starting out, when they're young, you know, you kind of want it high and you kind of want it a little bit too big, really, you know, so like with a puppy, it's kind of nice because the puppy is going to grow. So hopefully you can keep using the same one. But at first, they're just trying to figure out how to get on it. And so you don't want it to be too difficult for them. You want them to get confident getting on it. But then when they really understand about getting on that platform, it needs to be a very precise size, like Heather was talking about. So you're going to need to be, you're going to have to either move to a smaller one, or you're going to have to be able to cut it down. You know, so that's where I'm like, oh, you need a carpenter. And I have a funny story. My in-person class, I had a couple of women with these Malamutes and, you know, these are big dogs, you know, and

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they had these giant platforms that were heavy and they had a teenage son bring them in. And I'm like, you guys, those are too big. Like, you know, you got to bring them down narrower. And they kept saying, we'll do it this week, you know, but, you know, and I was just, you know, cutting it down was, you know, a job, you know. One, one other little thing that, that you got to, when it, when I was talking about goal behavior and such, it's like, you can't, you can use the, the pivot pot, let's call it perch pot, um, in heel position for having your dog pivot and around and into heel position. But you're better off not to use something like that when you're working on sits in heel position. The reason being is that the dogs cannot do a proper tuck sit when they are on that round disc because that round disc protrudes too far into where their back feet come. So then you're going to get that splayed sit and you're not getting, you're going to lose, you're going to lose your nice tuck sit. So that's something that I see a lot of people doing quite a lot in their training. And I always try to get them to either switch to a platform or make sure that they're just asking for that stand on that pivot perch, you know, when, when they're using it, but not to use it as part of a sit, um, exercise in heel position or in front position either. That's just my added little thing. I just want to go back quick to the width comment with the platforms. Um, I know some dogs who, no matter how tiny you make that platform, they aren't amazing at sitting sideways or they don't care if their hocks are off of it. But one thing that people can use is like a PVC box or something with the edges on it. So that way it's more like they're more so in something versus on something. So that way their feet can't kind of splay over the sides. Um, you don't have to be quite as precise with that. I don't think as you do with her on a platform. Yeah. I've actually had somebody do one, it was a platform and then it had a little raised edge around the, the thing. So you had the, the, the niceness of the precision of the platform, which I like. Um, and then they had the edging, which kept the, the dog's rear end from going off. And once he got used to it and finding, then they took the edging off and it all was good, but it was, it took a lot of patterning to get that before he finally realized it. Oh yeah, I got to sit straight. Yeah. I might be adding some edging to my platform. So for those who, you know, are considering team now who maybe haven't in the past,

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any final tips, anything else that you think it's important to bring up Heather? It's fun. Um, if you're wondering what you can do with your dog and, and, and, you know, if you, if you are strapped by distance or you're strapped by cash or you're strapped by anything else, you can do team virtually by using things in and around your home. You don't have to buy special equipment. You don't have to have anything, you know, any special training area set up, a good size room or your backyard is just fine. So take your chance, you know, like take a look at, at the team website, see how things are done and then just go for it. It's fun. It builds relationship. It, it helps your, your dog mentally, um, helps a lot of dogs physically as well, because they're using their bodies in different ways. And I think generally it just gives them an overall, you know, wellbeing, um, for both of you. Yeah, I agree with Heather. It's a lot of fun. I guess my tip for someone who's, you know, considering team and is starting to train for it, you know, at first you're spending a lot of time teaching your dog how to pivot, teaching your dog how to do these things. When you start even beginning to think, okay, at some point I'm going to want to test, I would say like each day take, you know, one of the exercises, I don't know, we'll say, you know, one, one engagement to pivot, you know, look at it, read it, look at the rules, look at the sample videos, and then that day go and train it, you know, videotape yourself and compare what you have to what's on the site. And, you know, when that day, that's what you focused on. And then you can start to see how you're going to video each of these things, rather than waiting till you think you have it all trained. And now you're going to try to put it all together. So do that that way. So then you know that you're teaching each individual exercise really to how it should look on the site. And one more comment, like, and I think it was brought up earlier, I was just thinking the other day how, you know, when Hartley was dare's age, he's seven and a half, he, well, he kind of knew how to heal. I thought he knew how to heal. But like I was doing healing with him at eight months old, and Hartley's or dare's done hardly any heal work other than the bowl. But and I'm like, Oh, my God, he's so far behind. But he's not because dare has started some articles, he started go outs, he started all these different things that we do in team, you know, really all the way through, you know, utility, you know, because of teams. So it's just

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got a much broader base than, you know, my older dogs had. And it's just a lot more interesting and fun. I think so. So my plug, if you don't know if you want to do it or not, is to just join the Facebook group for team players. It's very active, a lot of support and advice, and you can kind of ease yourself into it. It doesn't cost any money whatsoever. And maybe you can join one of the contests that go on on a regular basis and just train one behavior. Obedience is not as scary as it sounds like. And team is a really great way to kind of just ease yourself in. And maybe you'll even find yourself enjoying some of the precision stuff. But definitely join the group. It's free. And there's a lot of fun stuff happening on there. One thing that actually just kind of popped into my mind, and I know that we've mentioned it earlier, and I think Laura and I had a chat about it at one point, was taking a look. So final tip is, don't just look at team one, take a look at team two, and even team three, so that you can see the difference in what the skill that you're training now for, say, team one, how it can actually build, and how you're going to use it in, say, team three, or even team two. Because if you just sort of focus on just team one, even though you might be new, okay, you still need to sort of say, okay, where is this going? What am I going to do to, okay, so I need to start thinking about, once I get this, how am I going to use it for that, and for that level, and for this level, and that level? So don't just sort of sit at your team one level. Look ahead. All right, ladies, I've got one final question here. It's the one that I've been asking all of my guests when they come on kind of as a last question. What's a lesson that you have learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to dog training? So Anne, you want to go first on this one? This one's easy for me because I have a puppy. I was just, just this week, I was telling one of my students, she took her go out, her touch vertical target outside for the first time. It's spring. We haven't been outside much, and you know, her dog was a little distracted, but did a pretty good job. So, and I said, well, you know, you always have to go back a few steps when you make a big change in anything you're teaching. Well, what did I do? I went outside, and I put up ring gates and take my puppy and have him six feet away from it and send them to his stanchion. Well, all winter long, he learned that touch a vertical target was a freestanding

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stanchion without any gates, and it was inside my garage. So what do I do? I take it outside and add the gates gates, and I expect him to do it from as far away as we were doing in the garage. So I saw him go and not touch the stanchion, and I went, oh yeah, what was I just telling my student five minutes ago? You know, so then I went back and went back to teaching him, like, you know, I went back to the very first step and say, okay, this is what we do. We're going to touch this here, you know, like teaching it from the beginning. So that lesson is, you know, when you make a change, especially with a young dog, you need to go back several steps in, you know, what you've taught. So, you know, if your dog can do touch a vertical target from five feet away in your normal training area, you go somewhere else, you're going to go back to one foot away or maybe even less, you know, so. Laura? It's been a pretty stressful last couple of weeks recently, and sometimes life really just throws you a curveball and it's hard. But one thing it kind of forces you to do as well is be really creative and still get a lot done. So I have Ren, she's almost four months, so thankfully she's mostly out of the socialization's crucial stage. But still, you know, I have a pandemic puppy, and I need to introduce her to the world and all its sights, sounds, surfaces. And so just trying to be really creative in how I do that. So we're having a lot of fun in the house. I have a toddler too, and so she's having fun helping me. Like this week, she's practiced going bowling in the house to knock down pins made of bottles and cans to make a lot of noises and show movement. Ren has joined her in the ball pit that we have now set up in an X-pen. We're just making a lot of stuff out of Amazon boxes and make a lot of noises and movement, basically watching the world at a distance. And so it's been a little bit tough, but hopefully it just is embracing our creativity and we'll have a lot of fun trying to get her socialized. Let's see, for me, it's probably been that things don't always go according to plan. And that's probably because I've had a, Piper has been sort of sick, and we've been dealing with a health issue with her. So all of my confirmation plans went down the tubes, all of my obedience plans went down the tubes, you know, as I try to get her healthy and get her back on track. Luckily, she's a great little dog, and she's a trooper, and she just is willing to work whenever I ask. But I have to be very, very careful that I

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don't, you know, make it negative for her. You know, it's been a very painful row for her. She loved the vet, and she doesn't like the vet anymore. So we got, you know, all those different types of things to go back to. But I guess the other thing to, you know, on a, if I was telling somebody else is like, what you think you're training, you may not be training. So really take a considerate look at it. Take your dog's point of view, when something isn't working. Don't just say, oh, he's not getting it, he's not getting it must be the dog. You know, they're such and such. And you know, they're not getting it. And they're, they're sensitive. They're this and they're that. Nine times out of 10, it's us. And our lack of clear communication. So just consider things from the dog's point of view. And, you know, be kind. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, ladies. This has been great. Yeah, this has been fun. And hopefully we get some folks interested in team. I hope so. Well, we got team one going. And Laura, when do you have, are you at team three going? Team three is running this session as well. Yeah. Okay. So we got team one. So anybody who is in team two, last session, start in with team three. And anybody who is thinking about team one, hop in. We've only got a couple of more spaces left. Well, thank you, ladies. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Lucy Newton to talk about tracking. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.