에피소드 16: Mia Skogster

took me in but like working dog clubs didn't and then my dog was two years old when we finally had this Belgian chef heard meaning and and then I found there like trainers who did like searching and and obedience and IGP and we started all of those things and it was very clear that this dog wouldn't be like highly talented for IGP because it was show line their viewing but I trained him to become like a working champion in a search and rescue sport we have similar obedience than IGP but then there was of course no protection part and then I really really wanted to have a German Shepherd again or a Malinois and then I found like really really cool Malinois like out of like while the Potois and sister the Potois you know those boys got the dogs yeah and I'm like I'm gonna have a dog from this combination and so on and so that's like how it really started and and when I got like Helge I knew immediately when he was a puppy that this dog is like like like this dog can become a world champion and that's my dream if I can do that so I'm gonna hopefully I'm not forgetting my questions because I'm gonna have to sorry my long answer it was no no I really this is what I this is what people want to hear so when was that time when you realized that you actually are really good at what you're doing when I was standing next to you in the podium 2007 in World Championships I was the vice world champion you were the world champion and I was like come on I'm here with like legends like Ivan is right next to me and there was like Mario Versip on the other side he was the former I think triple world champion or something and I was like between you and I'm like my dream has come true and if I never ever in my life achieve anything nobody can take this moment away from me yeah that was a very because we have this picture of the podium that exact picture I have it in my training room and we were talking about it about like a special time and and you change my special moment because it really is a much more special than becoming a special time than becoming a world champion like we cannot take a world champion like we cannot take a way world champion is a world champion and yeah especially when you do it twice or three times it's not a you know one time hit like you always you do it right but I always used to think that it's a that was my high high moment becoming the world champion and after talking to you about the that moment that you are on the podium And for me, that was the same. Like, you totally changed my thinking because that was when I got second time,

second place at the World Championship next to Knut Fuchs and coming from the States. It was like, okay, we're here. So that's cool. Now, you mentioned about Helge. What does it make? Like, we know, like, I mean, we've been training for a month here. I remember us being in Finland in 1 a.m. in a, I don't know, freezing cold winter time, out talking dogs and doing healing. I don't know if you remember this. Yeah, I do. I mean, just that's what we do, right? But what make, how do we decide, how do you decide that, what do you feel when you see a dog, as you said, with Helge? And it's like, okay, no, he has everything, that potential, right? And there is, I think it's a package, but for you, how do you, I know it's a feeling, but what is it more? Yeah, I think it's like, when we have like a dog that you see that it's very talented in protection, it has like, it has the self-confidence, it has the poise, it has the braveness, it has the courage, the grips, the motivation, the enthusiasm to do this work. And then also, I think the one important part is for me that the dog has like self-control, you know, that he's like balanced dog. Because I think that if we really want to reach like excellent results from competition to competition, we want to have a reliable dog. So it must have also like very balanced character. If it's like too high. He has to see the picture correctly, not just go in one extreme, right? Yeah, because if it's too extreme dog, too low self-control, the environmental stress can affect on the dog performance. I think that, you know, there are a lot of people, different helpers, noise, all things are like different than in your training. But if you have balanced dog, it can ignore this kind of distractions. And often the dogs who are like extremely fast, extremely like explosive, they let the environmental stress affect themselves more. So I kind of like search more for balanced dogs. And I think it's like, that's the one thing. Also that we have the connection with the dog that we feel that, you know, I think that's also important. But also I believe that we can build, if we are good trainers, we can build like amazing connection with different types of dogs. And when you have, how, do you remember how old was he when you were like, I really think we are doing this together? I think, kind of like I had all the time the feeling since he was like, like a little bit all the time, like since he was three months old when he first time took like a hard sleeve. And he was a little puppy and he was carrying it really proud. And I was like, you know, that, yeah, like a king.

And I'm like, like, like, this is the dog what I have been wishing for. But, but of course, like, I think after the, like, of course, like the real thing, it came like true more and more all the time. I think when we had some, some struggles in tracking and when we were able to solve those struggles there, it was mainly because of my own, you know, training skills and training what I did before for him. But when we, when we, when we, when we fixed those and he did his first IGP one, I think it was very clear that this would be a dog that I can, I can succeed. But still, you know, like until we really did this vice world champion, you know, results. Yes, there is a lot of questions still. Yes. And then it was really like, this really has come now true. What about the maturity? Like, because like what, what, what I, where I want to go and help some, at least some of the people that listen to the podcast. I, and I don't know what your take on this is, but I find that there's this really strange, fine line to make the decision if that dog is going to make it or not. And sometimes we need to wait and sometimes we are too quick to, to say, no, that's not a good dog. Oh, absolutely. Right. And, and I see a lot of dogs that we just didn't recognize that they were just not ready at the moment and we didn't give them time. Or on the other extreme, people get stuck with a dog that just cannot take them where they want to go. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, I think it's, it's very interesting because like, like with Helge, he had like a medium food drive or not that super high. He was also a more calm dog. So he wasn't anyhow talented for food obedience. Also my skills were not super. And so, but, you know, I could for sure like nowadays train him better also with food. But however, he wouldn't be a dog that would look like awesome in obedience, like with food. He like, he started to bloom immediately when I like changed from food to prey when he was like one year old. And I did then like three steps healing and reward, three steps healing and reward, something like this. When he was like 12 months old, he couldn't do any more. And I think this is, you know, I think that people are too focused on how good the dog looks with food. You know, how active the dog is, like how much, you know, energy he puts for the food. And that is not so important if you really look like. So just a transition stage, right? Yes, yes. We don't need like a extremely food motivated dog to make great results. And so I think that is something, I think the first kind of like typical mistake what people think.

They are like, oh, that's a super dog who can do like super active healing with food. And, and, and, and I just like with, with, with, like with, like with, like with all of my dogs, but Helge also like need a lot of time to like build his like fighting spirit great. And then, and then he, then he made like a very great progress very quickly. Like after that. How is it in the winter when you train? Like you, I mean, you have indoor places, right? I mean, Finland, but still kind of difficult if, if it's a big stretch of time where. Yeah, like tracking we can't do. So it's like, um, we can, nowadays we have more, uh, we can go to even warm indoor places before. We trained in a cold horse training arenas, but yeah, we do like obedience. We do, uh, we can do protection. So what are the benefits of training in the kitchen? So to speak, because we all train in the kitchen at some point, right? Yeah. Yeah. I do a lot this with puppies. I think the cool thing is that there is no distraction. We just can focus on the dog and, uh, and, um, also our own improvement more. Yeah. But, um, and another benefit is sometimes, sometimes dogs need a break. It's not about like, if we think about obedience and protection, it's more about the quality of training and it doesn't matter if you have one month break. If you train after that, like, literally. Right. The, you know what I was thinking also that it's very interesting to talk about is as a trainer to adapt to the dog that you have at the moment and not to always compare it to the dog that you had in the past. Yes. I think trainers just, not everybody, but you have a good dog and you always, it's like, okay, he has to become the same dog. And I think, um, it's a disadvantage when you try to make, you, you almost disrespecting what that individual dog is. If you constantly try to make him look like the one before. Right. Yeah. You have to like, uh, I think the great trainers always adapt themselves and their methods they are using in each individual dog. So, so, um, it starts even from a movements, from your praise voices, from everything. It's not only even like whether you use food or toy and it's, it's the whole package. And I think the good trainers are like good actors. So, um, you know, and then we have to have this kind of high hope attitude also that we think that, um, we have a, like a dog who is talented. It's different than the previous one, but it has his own benefits, his own, you know, talents, what he brings in. Like for example, I think the dog would I have right now is more adaptive. He wants to do things right.

While I think, for example, my previous dog who didn't want to do, you know, he, he was like, he didn't care about whether I'm happy or not, but then he had another talents. He had like really, really good, like, um, like, like if he wanted something, he was like extremely focused. Nothing could ruin that. The problem was how to make him so motivated about everything. So every dog has like their own things and, and yeah, we have to adapt it. I think that's the, that's also what I love to do. I love to find, oh, when I do this, oh, now he responds as well. And then I feel like it's like very rewarding to myself when I realize that I have now learned something new from my dog and I can make it better. And that's how he responses because dogs are very good teachers. Yeah. Yeah. What about the methodical training? Like we, we, we have plan where we're going, but I think making the plan of, and that plan probably changes all the time, but how do you, how do you move forward? You have, you got the dog, you start training. Yeah. I think we have the first half. What is the vision? How, how, because there is something about being methodical, but there is also something about recognizing the moment and the dog says, no, let's go there. Yeah. And you get stuck and you don't allow it. Right. Yeah. I think the main important, first of all, is that you have like, you have a vision. You have to see in your mind, like what's the end result? Like, like how you want your dog to look at like in protection, in obedience, in tracking and wherever you want to train him. And then you have to understand like what your kind of dog will look at its best, you know, at his best. That you understand that even I would like my dog to look like this, but maybe my dog can do exactly this way, but he can look a little bit different, but still very good. Yes. Still get excellent results. So you, you have the vision. Then you think like the steps, like how you can get there. So you have a plan, of course, like, like strategy, how you can reach that. And then I have like some kind of like milestones there on my way. I look like always the progress, how it goes forward. And if I realize that we stuck longer than, than, than should in one part, I'm like questioning if my method is wrong, should I change something? If it's just that I have to repeat more, I have to train more or like, like I have to make that decisions. And then I have to try sometimes we just like, like, okay, maybe if I try like that, maybe, maybe that could be something. And I'm like observing, like.

So do you say your, how, how would you describe yourself, your skill of, are you more rigid or more flexible to go around and, and go? I'm very flexible. Flexible, right? I think flexible is very important. No. And I, and I also like, I look, I love to see like, like other top trainers training. Who go there and who reach the same results with a little bit different ways, because I can always learn something. Then I can say like, like, like, like for example, now we have had an awesome training here. Like, like I was stuck in with one exercise. We talked about it. We tried something what I haven't tried before. Right. Because I thought that, you know, I have already tried everything what I can from my tool pack. And then we are like, okay, we can try something else. And it, it, it gave like immediate like results. So, so I think it's like, I always like, uh, but I want to always see like the, if I'm listening advices, you know, I want to see also some results behind them. But rules are important because if we don't know the rules and if we don't, if we don't watch where the competition, what the trends are and don't understand how to make points. Yeah. Right. It's, it's a, in a way it's a chess game what we do. We have to say, okay, my dog is not going to be able to sit the same. It's just not possible to sit physically the way some other dog will. Yeah. I'll leave that alone. I'm not going to push it, but I know where I can get my points back. Exactly. Right. Yes. So knowing rules and knowing how to find for, fight for points. Yeah. When you're competing. And for giving some little, like, don't try to break the dog, you know, don't try to like, like, it's like, how to say, you have to understand what are your skills? What is the personality of your dog? And then decide to do little compromises. Exactly like you said, that I can get the points and where the big points are coming. I can focus on those exercises and because there my dog can like shine. Right. And then deciding that, okay, this thing here is going to be half point away. I'm not going to like, try to get that half point, you know, in, in like, like a tool of obsessed. Right. Obsessed. Yes. Yes. And then just, okay. Because it's very easy to get obsessed when something is not quite how you want. Yes. But then it's like you're starting to pocket it. And instead of making it better, you make the dog more aware that he cannot do it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And then you also get more, when you get more obsessed, like when the trainer gets more obsessed, it's also that your mood is not, like, good for the training either.

So, and, and, and, I mean, we don't talk about like one training that can sometimes go on that way. That you kind of like try to fix something. And then you realize that was maybe not a good idea. I want training when you have a good base, basics and good foundation. It's, it's, it's not a problem. But then you have to be clever trainer and realize that that is not how I want to bring my dog forward. It's not good. I have to change myself. And it's also about also that we learn that even we are not always satisfied. We learn to act, you know, that, you know. And I have a really, really funny example of this. Like my previous dog was not good in sit from motion. And then I knew he's going to make like a very good. And he always makes like, I want him to do like a relaxed sit. It doesn't have to be super, super fast. And then my assistant trainer, like there was a one-star training that I told them to say super when my dog sits or good when he sits. Yes. And then if it's like especially good, they can say like, I think super. And then good when it's not so good. And they forgot to say me anything. They were like talking with each other. And then I turn around and I'm like looking at them. I was angry. I didn't hear any feedback. And I'm like, was it not good? And they were like, yeah, yeah, it was one part. He did it like, like very good. And then I was like, then I of course reported my dog. And then I questioned myself afterwards that why do I even need this information? Whether my dog was like two-parted or one-parted or something. If I, if I anyway, I'm going to reward my dog. So I'm not going to give him any correction. I'm just going to reward him like no matter how he does it. So why do I need it here? And then I told next training to my trainers, like my assistant trainer saying to me that tell me super, no matter how he does it. Tell me always super. And then I turn around and I heard the super with a voice like super like this. And I was so good mood. And I came back because I actually only wanted to reward him from good focus. And so I relax it and good focus. So I always rewarded him. And I felt so good one month before my trial that my dog also started to sit faster, you know, and, and, and, and, and the main focus was actually in the focus of the dog. Right. So kind of like that you question, like what kind of information you need in each training and, and when you are in good mood and I, and, and no matter how my dog was, I was like, he must be super because they said super. So it boosts my, it lifts my mood up. Yes, yes, yes.

And, and, and so sometimes, you know, these kinds of things are needed in, in order to actually get excellent obedience. And he did excellent obedience in his championships. Yes, he did. No matter with a little slow sit. Yes, he did. This is, this is, that's the, the cool part about the game we play is this kind of moment. That's what I think that's what separates really excellent training and thinking and planning from, from just hitting a wall and being stubborn. Do you, like, I think it will be interesting for people because many, not everybody, but many want to be where you are. That's the motivation, right? We get inspired just as your, it's, it's your word inspire your dog, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, and, and they, I think everybody is assuming how you train, how I train, how somebody, you know, very successful trainer train. And I think we, we don't always train the same way, but somehow as we talked, we have a picture how to get there. And having these different flavors is very interesting. Instead of everybody doing exactly the same thing. I think we will be bored to that. To where it's like, oh, I try something different than everybody. And then we compare and then we share. And that's how we grow as a community. And so do you, like, do you, as you say, you have sometimes people to spot you. How often you train by yourself? I think I train mostly by myself. Mostly by yourself. Like maybe 99% I'm just alone. Yeah. The same thing. And yeah. So what about then, do you, now that we have phones and it's so easy to make videos, like do you, how, how much do you watch? Do you film your training sessions? I would love. And do you see any importance of that? Yeah. I think it's, it's really, every time when I have a chance, I kind of give my phone and I'm like, please film my training. If we have like more people, I always ask them to film my training because I just love to watch it afterwards. I can see some little things there, especially from my own handling that I can improve. This comes, of course, even more important, like later when we prepare our dogs to the competitions, but I like to see there are some things that I can't see, you know, like how, you know, how the dog sits, for example, or how, how I stop, how I, how I use my legs, for example, you know, like leg work, hand work, these kind of little things when I'm preparing dog to competitions. I like to see it. And it's kind of like, yeah, of course, a lot of things I feel also when the dog is next to me, but I like to do it. And it's different when, like you see him here looking at you, but it's different when

you see him from the side, how he looks too. Yeah. And then you see yourself and it's like, no, I could have helped here, right? Yeah. Or, or, so you do film. Yeah. And the next one that's very interesting, and I think it's interesting, not just for me, but everybody, how often would you train? And does it matter, like, like training, like the difference between having a young dog versus older dog and you're, you're at home and you have, you do your normal stuff and you're training. How, how often, how long the sessions? Okay. The younger the dog is, the shorter are the sessions. So, um, usually it's like two minutes with little puppy, two, three minutes only, I think, when I'm training with food. Mm-hmm. And, but I do it like three times a day, like some little things. So that's kind of like the kitchen training we're talking about. That's the kitchen training. Let's have some fun. Exactly. That's like, like when he engaged with me and I, I want to like teach him like the healing position and, and stuff like that. And, and then immediately when I know that I have reached a limit, what my dog can do, let's say that my dog has like learned to seek the right healing position. He has learned to do the healing already head up in the right position. I stop it and I can have like six months break from that particular exercise and I can wait that his drive develops. He plays well with me and then I can come back for these basics, but he already has learned. So I don't like, I don't just train because I think that I want to train kind of, you know, I always think that what my dog actually has to learn and because the time is very limited. So I have to, I have to train the right things and then I can focus on something else. And then, yeah, and then I can have easily when I'm traveling and I'm traveling without my dog. Then he has, of course, break from training. And so, but yeah, it's, it's, so then when the dog gets older, his energy level gets higher. I can already play with him more. Of course, then the training sessions come longer, come longer. And, and so, but even then I can decide that if I just want to build like more energy to one particular exercise, I can just train that and make it very short. Or I can decide that now my dog needs to learn like duration and, and, and like, like keep on going. So sometimes I'd make it on this way and it's, it's very. You like to focus when you take the dog out to play, I mean, to train, right? Focus on certain exercises or you're trying to make a whole picture.

Because sometimes, you know, there is trainers that train, teach pattern and it's like every session, it's like very robotic, like, and there is trainers that just work elements and then here and there put them together. What is your feeling? I go more in the beginning for this. Like I, I teach like all elements separately first as perfect as I can. And then I start to put them together as a pattern, like a competition pattern. Yeah. And then I, when I'm preparing my dog to the competition, like, like when they are like two to three years old, something like this, of course, depending on each dog's development. But then I start to order like two more longer sessions and, and, and I'm also introducing the pattern for them. But, but, but even then I can break it and decide to just, if I have a problem in one exercise, you know, I can just focus on that one particular exercise and, and so on. And then I can bring it back in. Yeah, exactly. So it's very. When you train, which one is like, if you, if you are to say your top three big. In, of importance in your training, like what, what is number one thing that you would want to have? Emotion. I think the emotional, uh, uh, stage, like the emotional, um, the interaction between the two or your. I think that, um, they are like two things. It depends on the exercise. So in some, I think for me, the most important is that the dog is like his emotional level and his arousal level is exactly the, the right. Like for each exercise, because in different exercises, you want to have like a dog in different, uh, arousal level in different emotional stage. And like, like, like for example, in the long down, we want something else than in the center way. Yes. We want a dog who is like, yeah, not thinking anything. So you kind of, yeah, I do like, you know, like I, I always seen, at least in my head, the vitamin passive and active exercises. And yeah. And then they have different elements to where it's like, okay, if I need active and I'm doing training, then I would do the active stuff in the beginning of the session. And then the, like I would do the down, I will introduce later on, everything mixes up. Yeah. But I, I generally would like to do the long down after the dog is already trained and he kind of wants to lay down in some ways. Do you kind of separate like this? Do you play like this or no? Um, yeah, I can also like, uh, in the beginning of like long down, uh, I can train that like a bit separately. The dog would be focused on me sometimes like that he kind of understands the exercise.

And later on I can train it like as the last exercise, sometimes also the first one, of course, like, because sometimes we also need to introduce the young dog naturally that you have to stay here. Like when, even in the beginning, but, um, but yeah, it's, it's, um, it's like, um, it, it, it's like a varying very much this. Sometimes I do like, I feel that now I need to focus on making my, when I want to like stabilize a certain emotional state, for example, the retrieves and send away. So that's for sure that I don't train first healing then. Then I just train like retrieves and send away that he's very fresh. He puts all the energy, what he has on those. Right. Because I want to have like a really good returns and very fast send away that he's not tired. Um, and then, then when my dog like sport condition improves and he can like, his duration gets better. So he, he's, his physical condition, his mental condition is like stronger. Then I, of course, sometimes can do like, you know, the healing pattern, sit down, stand, recalls, then retrieves and then send away. But I don't too often do the whole pattern like that. I often like split it that I have like retrieves and send away. I have, you know, healing and sit down, stand motions. And then, um, yeah, just to make sure that my dog is like not too often too tired when he does the retrieves. One of the cool things that I've been watching you do. Yeah. One of the cool things that I've been watching you do is the very initial, like the, the very first moment. When we say, let's go on the field. Like you take a very good care. That the dog, when you go on the field, he is in the right mood. And the right motivation. And then things go right. Yeah. A lot of trainers neglect that. Going on the field, thinking that once on the field, as they start healing, as they start doing things, they kind of progressively get better. But the dog is not 100%. And I think you're very good at whatever, how you create it. And I'm sure with every dog is different. But there is this moment that I'm sure you take time. Otherwise, it cannot happen like this. But when you say, let's go. The dog is there. You have undivided attention and motivation from your dog. But that is very nice to say this because this absolutely is something we have to train for. We have to train it. It's not naturally built in any dog. Because obedience is not so natural, of course. Like tracking or protection is more fun for the dog itself. And when, for example, my young dog, what you have seen now here, was younger. He was like six months old. And I did a seminar in France.

And I had my dog there with me. And we have just trained a lot of protection with him. Every time when I went to another field, I always did protection. And then I informed people that I'm very sure when I come here, my dog is not engaged with me. So I don't start to do healing. Even you want to see me doing the healing. I'm just focusing on engagement. And I just come here to tell him that if he looks away, I will give him feedback. No, you shouldn't watch away. You should watch me. Wow. Then emotionally, I make him feeling really good of that. And I play with him. And when I get him engaged, maybe I will show you one healing. Right. So that first thing is like this, that I teach him that no matter what my dog expectation is, you first, if I tell you his obedience, then focus on me. And then we have a lot of fun. So I give him a lot of feedback, both positive, also negative feedback. If he's like thinking of something else, because we know, I'm sure you agree with me, that when we have high driven dogs who are brave and interested in everything that happens around them, we just cannot simply wait. Yes. And let them decide what's good to do, because they can choose so many things around. And so I'm doing this. And then he improved very quickly. And I went to a lot of like places with him. And I told always to people, even I came here, I first introduced, I told the people that I come here to do just engagement when I did in a seminar, like the first healing session. But I felt immediately he was there. So I could start the healing. It's a good feeling, right? It's perfect. It's so perfect feeling, but it comes like after we have trained it for the dog. We have to train first the dog to focus on us. So simply task the dog can for sure do, like eye contact, like a face to face, super reward from that. And when I feel that even I put the toy away and I move a little bit and the dog still keeps the eye contact, when I have this feeling, then I can start healing. And in a way, you are creating that desire and believe in the dog that they can almost like push you to go. So I'm ready. Let's go. Yeah. It's more like, yeah. Instead of the other way around. Yeah. It's a handler. I'm already a new let's go, right? Yeah. I want my dogs to say like when I, it's so important for me that when I hide the toy and I put it like invisible in the pocket, that my dog is like, like keep on the eye contact. If I move, he's like, I want to do it. I want to do it. And he would like to call to my side. And I'm a bit like preventing him. And I say, not yet, not yet. Okay. Okay. So that the heel command is like, is like connected.

That the connected, like, oh, conditions it that it's like a free. Okay. I let you do that. But he is like free. Yeah. Free. Heal. Okay. And he really wants to push me to let him do that. So when you, like, I, I sometimes struggle with this when I give seminars and you give plenty of seminars everywhere. This on its own is so important and so critical, but when you're in a seminar environment, people want you to go on the field and you want to show the healing and everything. But that preparation moment of the dog wanting and being ready and being focused and being in the, the optimal mindset for work. I find it very difficult for people in a seminar environment because they feel that this is, this is not what they are there for. They want to see how do you do the healing? How do you teach the city? How do you make the retrieve? And this gets totally kind of left aside. And it's so important. How do you, how do you go in your seminars to, to tell people that that's a big deal? Yeah. And I think normally I don't have my dog with me. So normally it's just like presentation, video presentations. And I, I'm like explaining this there. But when I have the dog with me, it's so important. I love my dog so much and I love my work so much. I don't want to spoil it just because people have wrong expectations. So they have to first of all, understand that young dogs, they will not see errorless training. They will not see something me doing like, you know, like a five-year-old dog going to the championships. If I have one year old dog or two years old dog. And so I want to be very honest with them and explain them like, and I think that it's good to explain them before I even take the dog. That this is what you should expect. And then you will see how I interact with my dog. And that is the most important thing. I think to even learn, not exactly like how the dog, like how the healing even looks like, but don't expect the healing. I will show the healing if I can. And I think they have understood it nicely when I learned to like explain this like beforehand. But I think this is something that people think that when you are like a world champion trainer, that your dog will look like a world champion when it's one year old. Which is completely false. I can make a cool, we know this, in the Instagram videos, we can make it super cool. And my dog can look like 16 weeks old. 30 seconds is very easy to make. It's super easy. It's completely different to do it like at trials. That's why I always want to see the dog in the trials. And I trust now that you touch the Internet and the social media training.

How do you feel like I mean, there is the benefits, of course, of being able to see so much. But how do you feel about the Instagram moments of, OK, well, this is a good healing, this is good healing. I think this is like, do you feel the training community benefits or it's a little bit of disadvantage when they watch this kind of videos? I think it's like both. The good thing is we can inspire people, of course, by Instagram. We can show good work. I'm really, I'm also thinking it's a bit of disadvantage that people, they kind of like, they maybe think it's too easy. They learn that they own, because nobody shows errors in Instagram. You're right. The struggle. Struggles and everything that we all have to face in order to get where we want to. And also like, like when I posted a video of my doctor in like 16 weeks old, like a perfect healing with a perfect position. And he was only able to do it with with no distractions in my home field. And I couldn't even go with the with a strange field. Like, like, I don't even know if he would play with me there. Well, you know, because his tray drive wasn't yet that open. And and sometimes I'm thinking that it's like making people believing like like something fake. And and then in the seminars, I always explain it. You know, this is the perfect Instagram video. But that's how we really do it. And that's how we really reach it. And so that people don't they have to they have started to learn too much. This kind of errorless training that, oh, I don't want to make any mistakes. You will do mistakes, honey. So just take it as it comes. And then we can fix the mistakes. Mistakes are part of learning. No, I mean, it's very easy to navigate. It's like, OK, that's that's the wrong way. That's what we like. Yeah. Versus. Focusing on the right way. I also I also I'm so big on trial and error. I think it's like, OK, well, that that didn't work, did it? Let's see how we can make it better. Yeah. Yeah. And I think that. Like when you mentioned before about. Like we all aim, of course, like to train looks like very conflict free. And and what I think that the good trainers like you and and like like all the people we we have had here. Right. Like like this weekend. And it's like the good thing, like even we have a bit different approach, like how we like like with our how like the methods. And so how we go there. But the good thing is that we are all like very much focused on emotional communication. Right. Like we and we are good at that. And that is something what you can't learn in the books. Yeah.

It's the it's the make making the dog truly believe that they they are capable and that they are successful. Yeah. And you can make like the dog believing that that that you are proud of the dog and they can feel the pride in your voice and they can feel the kind of happiness. If you want to make them more delighted, you can make them feel calm. And it's like how you play with your voice, how you interact. And I think that this is what I really admire in all good trainers that they that's the that's the key. Yeah, it's there. Yeah. That's very interesting that it's. Yeah. And I think this is like. And I think that people should focus not so much like like the technical way of teaching like a healing, for example. They should focus on more like how we interact with the dogs, how our what our body language tells to them, how we talk to the dogs, our timing, of course. But it's much more than just timing. And I think this kind of like when you have these four like four quadrants. Yeah. And this kind of behaviorism, it never gives answer to all learning because dogs can also like model and copy humans. They can feel emotions and and and that is something important we have to like. In addition, I mean, this. There are a lot of things we can learn from theory, but then there is also a lot of things we can just learn by, you know, trying and watching how the good trainers are doing it. We could learn so much by that. Yeah, it's a it's a. That toss up between theories and hands on and hands on. It's a it's my opinion is so big. It's like. Sometimes I. Like I would go, I don't know, in any country, anywhere, and I would look at somebody with just a dog, not doing any sports or anything. And. And. They have that thing between them and their dog just because they like the dog and the dog likes them and they have come to some agreement how they do things. So even if they go to the park and play ball, come on, see that. Yeah. And I think this is. I think we all have it inside. But when we think, oh, I'm going to be this big trainer, we neglect that part of being being yourself and really looking at the dog as. Uh, as your body, as your friend is like, hey, we're going to figure it out and we're going to make this. It's not necessarily let's go that system and we go strictly strictly to where it becomes so artificial that the dog is like, that's not fun. Like you're not having fun with me. You're just making me do things. And and then we end up where I'm going with this is the. Kind of circling back to where we were. Creating a dog that wants to versus making a dog do.

And they both have the place, but a dog that to to create that dog to want to do things with you to really be like he's kind of seeking more. Right. And then we are at times. No, you have to do it this way. But if we start with you have to, then we can. It's very hard to make the dog. Want to. Right. Yeah. And I think like like when I saw the book in your library today about Jak Bangsep and he talked about this seeking mood that is very like pleasurable itself. And I think when I train my young dogs like to learn new things, I'm aiming for this kind of like the dog would be like, oh, you like the handler has something what I want. How could I get that? I'm like, yeah, you have to keep on trying. Intriguing. Intriguing. Yes. Intriguing. Intriguing. Intriguing. And it's like they and when we get our dogs to this mood and they like, they're like, oh, I have it here. And how could you get it? Oh, you can see the right position. Like you, even when you, I mean, during the seminars and everything, when you start doing this and you're explaining it to the handler and it's their dog and you start talking like this and the dogs get so intrigued by you. Intriguing. And I mean, the handler, the owner becomes almost secondary just because you bring that curiosity and that like. And they're mesmerized. Like, oh, I want to do things with you. Yeah, because no matter what's our, like with humans we can talk, we have the language. We talk English, we talk Finnish, whatever, and you understand my words. But dogs are very good in picking up emotions. And so if I would talk to you right now with this kind of very boring driving instructor voice, it sounds like it has its place in the dog training, this kind of good boy, well done, like that. But if I want to make the dog more exciting, I intentionally change my voice. And I think if we play a little bit, it's ooh la la, I have something that you want. I have the food here. There you go. Yeah. And they're like, oh, I really want to have that, you know. And it's not only the voice, it's my whole expression with the body also. I can raise my eyebrows like ooh la la, if there's a camera. Yes, and they become. They become feeling that emotion like, oh, she really is like exciting. This is really special. Yeah. She really has something. And also when they come from the world, oh, it was not my intention to give all of that to you, but you were so greedy, so you got it. And then I, you know, all these things have its place. And that is something what I think, what I would wish that in scientific research is they would like a little bit more like make researches about this. Yes.

Because we dog trainers know how much like, and we have already, science has already like proven that dogs have emotions and emotions are like mirroring between humans and dogs. But still, actually, like how many dog books we have about that. That how would you do that? True. What kind of emotions the dog can actually feel? And how can you help your dog to become more engaged with you if you learn to like play with your voice a little more and with your body? Yes. And I think that is something. And that's why I like, for example, I wrote a book about this in Finnish language. Yes. Tell me a little bit about the book now, because now that we mentioned that. Yeah. It was like, I want to write a book about like my way of communicating with a dog. So I like explain like six different phrase voices there, how we can like communicate better with dogs generally, like how we can use the body language, how we can interpret dogs emotions and then become like every day a little bit better dog handler, because it's something that we never become perfect. But I think that it is something that when people would, so this book is just about emotional communication with the dog, not like teaching like how to train your dog to do like a perfect healing. Because if we have this really good, like I think that all the really top level trainers, they have it like naturally. But in the seminars, the time is limited in, in the private lessons, people are very focused on fixing. A particular something. Yeah. Fixing some problem, fixing some issue. But so often we will say, hey, but you have to first learn to communicate with your dog better. And then we can come back for this problem, what you want to fix. And so it's more about like this. And so, yeah. So when you, when you started writing. Yeah. I'm sure it's different for everybody. How? When, when was the moment when you said, okay, I think I have enough now that I can make that book. And how, how did you end up writing the whole thing? Oh yeah. Yeah. So it was like this, that first of all, I wanted to write the book like a long time already, but I never had time. And then one of my friend who is like, she has, she's an author, she has published many dog books. And she knows the kind of publisher in Finland. And she has been talking with him, this publisher. And then she called me one like gloomy November, you know, day, like, would you write a book for us? And I'm like, okay, let's make a deal. And I signed the papers. And eventually I like, I found myself, I had like a one year time.

But of course I found myself that three months before the deadline, I really have to do that. Right. And then I was writing it like days and nights, you know, did they already give you some money ahead of time or no? No, no. They gave me the first money, like when they get the script, you know, but it was like. With me, with my first book, they gave me 5,000, which was quite a bit of money in the 90s. Yeah. And I was cornered. I had no way to, you know, now I've already spent the money. I'm like, I have to make this book now. Well, I have the same idea that, you know, I have the contract. It's a deadline, you know. Right. And I must do it. And I just like went to my friend's like summer cottage, like for three days when I started. And I'm like, oh gosh, I have to get it done. But eventually when I started to do that, it went like the first, like I think the first, like the first, maybe 30 pages were the most hard. Like when you are, you know, everything. But then it went like, like, like I knew, I knew what I'm going to write. They wanted to have originally more like a theoretical book about like how to teach a dog to do like a recall. And I'm like, no, no. General book. And I wanted to write a book about emotional communication. And then we came off like, they liked it, like eventually how it was. But I'm like, we have already books about like. Plenty. Yes. Yeah. But we don't have books about this. And that's my special way to do it. And I want to like explain it to people because people are asking like, what's your secret? Well, that is my secret. Right. Very true. So now it's in the book. Very true. Yeah. How long did it take you to finish it? Well, it was supposed to be like, I started like, like September and I have the deadline like in the end of November. But eventually I got it like 30th of December. Like after Christmas, I got it to the publisher. And then we still like made like little, little changes there. But yeah. But it was, it was good. And yeah. So now the book is ready for English. It's translated. Yeah. It's like, I haven't seen yet. It's like, it came from the pub, like from the printing company. Like it's now in my house. So when I fly tomorrow to Finland, I'm going to see it first time in my hands in English. And you will send a few copies here. I will definitely do that. So how, once, once the book was done, were you happy with what you did? Yeah. Because that's a hard one. I was, I was, I was super happy. Yeah. And I think it was like, it has been a book that people who have read it, they said that they have been laughing, they have been learning and they have been crying.

So it's, it has been interesting because we added there like some stories about my dogs and my life too, to make it a bit more like, like, like light to read. Yes. Yeah. Which is important for, for. And so, and I think then it's, then it's nice. Yeah. Like that it raises emotions too. So did the seminars giving so many seminars, how did that help with the book? Did you already kind of had the outline or you had to sit down and really make the outline of the book? I think like all those seminars, all the people I have ever met in my life, like, like all of them have helped me to come like a better trainer and help me to understand what the dog trainers actually need. Right. And I had the feeling that people don't know what they actually need. They are like, they think that they need just help for the exercises, but they would need like, you know, this. And then, and all like my online, like lectures, all of these, like, kind of like, it was like an easy to make the structure for the book. Yeah. And also when you have to, when you actually write this book, it also helps you in the seminars because eventually when you really have to think how you write it down, when you explain it to people and you have to make it like a shorter version of it, it helps you to also like, like be a better teacher. A hundred percent. Yeah. That's the, these are the steps for me as well. Like, you know, once you start teaching and you're teaching and somehow the more you teach, the better you become of, of knowing how to give the information. Just as you said, like sometimes people really don't, they, they, they want this while they're actually really need this and, and seminars help you become better. But ultimately there is a saying, and I, I'm going to butcher it, but like, um, any, any time you are a good teacher, writing a book makes you, it just skies rocks your abilities. Like you become better version of yourself after writing the book. Because you put so much thinking and evaluating what you're doing and, and you get more clarity of why. Right. Yes. Yes. So when you like, um, another one that it's always of interest, we all like different types of dogs and, and sometimes the type of dog that someone likes, it's not your type of dog. Right. And it doesn't make it a worse or better dog. It's just not your type of dog. Yeah. So like, what is the, the type of dog that, that you go, I like you. For me is like the first and the most important is self-confidence. I really like dogs who are like, like, like, like self-confident in all situations.

You know, that they are like, like a robust, brave dogs who will like to like, um, explore and challenge themselves. But you know, who are like very confident. Right. And, and, and, um, like, like, like, like, and I also like, like social dogs, but who are like so confident. They don't have to like all the time think that, or if I like you, or if I don't like you, you know, they are like very confident in all environments with different people. They like to meet and meet and mix. It doesn't mean that they are pleasing them. It's just that they are confident. Yeah. That's like the, the, the one thing what I always look at, uh, the confidence, braveness, um, self-confidence. And then of course, like dog who is like, um, it has to have some motivation to like fight. I love dogs who like to fight, like play fight. And who like to challenge and challenge, enjoy of this, enjoy like challenges and who don't only want to get the toy to him themselves, but they want to continue the game. Right. Yeah. That's like another thing. Um, that's like my type of dog. So already when I see that, that's for me, like, what about male, female thing? Is that a thing to you? Um, well, I would love to say that it doesn't matter. That's a gender that I, I, I, I, I think more about the individual dog, but I actually have always chosen males. You end up with a male. I end up with males. Um, they are, I mean, they are often a little more dominant, like more, um, how to say, more powerful. Yeah. It's that testosterone. Yeah. I think it, and I think a good female, uh, like a breeding female and what is a good female for the sport. Sometimes we have dogs who can be both for sure, but we more often have females who are a little more like, um, how to say, um, softer type or, or no. I would say that they are more like the, the aggression, what we want to see in like protection is often coming out a little bit from the insecurity. And I wouldn't consider them to be so good. Like breeding females, like not so stable, but they can be phenomenal in, in their protection work, you know, like the kind of dogs who are like showing the teeth. They are very active in their barking, but still they are very quick and fast, but that doesn't, I like more like balanced dogs. So I would, in a females, I would go more for the balanced type of dog, you know, who is like, and sometimes we can have dogs who can be both, but we have rarely like more rare of those. So we have more like, um, I think the females who can do like high points, but then they are a little bit on the edge.

And then I think that for the breeding, I would always look for the female who is like more social, more like kind of confident, but with the males, you can have them both more often in the same package because of the testosterone kind of like, you know, but then we also have some females who can be like, yeah. So, ah, it's like, I'm talking a little bit myself now, like a circle, but yeah, I hope the people will understand what I mean. Just like what we have right now. I mean, over this few weeks that we've been training together, there is quite a few females that you see. And I mean, Natalia's dog is a brother. I mean, you bred the female. She's that kind of female that is like, okay, you want this, bring it on. I'm here. And then there is the other females that we have to make them believe that they can do it to where the dog, the female that has it is like, yeah, let's go there. If you want to go there, let's go there. Right. And that's the cool part of, but it's true with females is a little bit, not as common. And what about you? I, yeah, it's a very hard one. I, my very first one, it was the Djoputoa dog. And, and, um, I mean, I love your young female, what you have. Yes. But she's also still related in there. And that's kind of, you know, they're, they're still that same, they're coming from the same gym pool. Right. So it's like, um, yeah, I, I didn't know that I'm going to train her, but now I cannot not train her. Right. Like, how, how do you not train that girl? Um, but like, it's a very interesting thing with, especially the Belgian dogs. I always very, it's very intriguing to me because they, on one hand, the Belgian ring people, the really classic old school Belgian ring people, they, all their concern as far as breeding is to be a good mom and to come from the right genetics. Yeah. Yeah. But they still produce a female that you can make sport, high level sport. Mm-hmm . It's not just the. I think the most actually, like, I haven't seen many females that have really gone to my heart, but the ones who have done that are coming from the Belgian ring lines. Yeah. I, I, I'm almost convinced that if, I don't know what it is with the Belgian ring sport, how that program makes the selection of a dog. Yeah. But it, in some ways, in my opinion, it's the best selection. I really agree. I really agree. Because we have, like, let's say the Germans have the DMC and they have the Kiorong and, and somehow they are two different types of dogs, right? Like it's a, and not that they're, the one is better than the other, but it's a different type. Yeah. And the, that Belgium program. Has something in it.

I'm so glad that we still. Have it. Have that, right? Yes. It's like, that should never go away. I think it will be the sport I would do, but I, you know, because I, I'm so born to this IGP, you know, I was, you know, that's, that's my sport, but I still like very much respect, like what they have done and how good dogs they have produced for us over the years. Breeding is very, it's a interesting, it's always interesting. And how, how many breedings you've done so far? Not, not so much. Like I have, I usually breed like whenever I need a dog or like one, one litter in like every second year, because the dogs are living inside my house. And I'm always excited to do that. And when the puppies are like seven weeks, I'm like, I'm so done because I do my best. But it's more like, I'm happy they go to new homes though. And it takes time for me to recover. Again, I do my best after two years. But yeah, I have like, maybe like, like with my current, like a kennel name, I have bred like, I don't know. And then also in my previous, I was like, my previous husband, we bred some dogs. So maybe about 150 puppies, something like that, but not so much for sure. One of the hard ones for me used to be now, because I think it still would be difficult if I breed something outside of what I know, but I'm pretty good at telling right now, but I used to make a lot of mistakes of selecting. Like I would always, and we're talking way back when I started breeding and for quite some time after. Somehow I get fixated on a dog that was showing so much as a puppy. And I would miss the actual really good one because that one was just always in your face. And you always see that one. Do you know what I'm saying? Yeah, I know what you say. Yeah. And how confident you are when you make a breeding to, to point out the different. So the, the, the really not so confident those, they're kind of easy, but then they're not because sometimes something snaps and here I am. I'm ready now. Right. And I, I can hear what you say, because I think it's like, that what I have learned, like, like how to, for example, select a dog, like to myself from the leader, like what I have learned my mistakes and everything would be that I would look more like for the balanced dog. Like who, who doesn't show like, how would I say, who has nothing which irritates me? Let's put it in that way. So he doesn't have to be the best biter. He doesn't have to be the best eater. But he should have like nothing extreme, you know, nothing also on the other side extreme, like, like, like kind of like the balanced puppy.

I think they have often been the best ones as an adult. But also when selecting dogs, like for breeding, like just like when you make the combination, I have done a lot of also their like mistakes. I always, I always wanted to have like a very strong dogs for breeding. And I thought that when you select the best, for example, female, what you can have in the leader on the field, that this would be the best female for breeding. And then I used that for the most dominant, strong, robust male I found. And then, and I had like another female who was, for example, the sister of that best female, who was actually like, just like a balanced, more balanced dog. And I used it for the same male. And the puppies were like just better. Right. Not so sharp, not so, like, like, not so super high driven, but just like more kind of clear in the head. The reactivity level is different, right? Yeah, exactly like that. And they were actually like, I think, like more like a better puppies. An experience, I always pays attention to those reactivity kind of behaviors. Yes. And now I like it. It's like, hmm, I've learned that before. Yeah, exactly. And then also about the dominance. I think that when we are like, like, like what I found out was that I, how to say, it's not only about how dominant the dog is or how strong the dog is, but you have to give us a lot of like attention to the self-control. Impulse control. You know, the dog is not too impulsive. We need like impulsive dogs. They cannot be too low, like impulsive either, because otherwise they wouldn't react for anything. Right. But if it's like, if the dog has a very, very like, that actually breeding is much more than just like a, we cannot have so simple personality traits for dogs. You know, like high drive, low drive. No, we have to have it more like that. It's about how much prey drive fighting spirit the dog has, like how much motivation to play the dog has. But then there is also that how confident the dog is. There is also the self-control. Then there is like, and that is very important part there. And then also like how, like how well the dog is like reading the social cues from the human, how much he wants to interact with humans. Because before I was like, there is no, there is no dogs who are like too dominant, you know. And there, I think still that there are not dogs who are too dominant, but it depends on the other personality traits what the same dog possesses. You know, if it's like a super dominant dog, no willingness to cooperate with humans. Yes, and difficulties to lead.

What I call like a little bit primitive type of like, I'm on my own a little bit. Yeah, more like a wolf type of dog. Who don't like, the oxidocene doesn't like burst in their brains when you praise them. They're like, you're like, oh, super, super. And they're like, what do you want? Yeah. You know, that type of dogs. Which are very important to still have. Yes. In the gene pool. Yes. We need also those. But then when you have like that kind of characteristic, like combined with high dominance, like desire to control the environment. Yeah. Which is different than fighting spirit. Yeah. Just controlling human and all the environment. And then also you can have the same dog can have like a sensation seeking, you know, like he wants to explore like the rats who are like the bravest ones. Yes, more life, more curiosity of life. Where they want to go, what's there going on? And so on. And then low energy level to anything else than fighting. And like, like, like there can be so many like traits that actually affect how trainable the dog is. And I think in dog sport, we often use so like, we make it, we talk too simply about dog's personality. Because we can have a dominant dog who has also high willingness to engage or like high energy level. And if you have high energy dog with high dominance or low energy dog with high dominance, it's completely different. It's a different type of machine. Very different type of machine. Exactly. Yeah. What about the, that's another big one, I think, among dog sports people. How do you, do you allow your dog to interact with other people? How much you interact with other people? Like, how, where do you stand on this? Yeah. I like to make my dogs like confident with people. They can like say contact with people in a normal life. I like to them to be very social because the more confident they are with people, they have to feel that humans are like friendly. Yeah. I don't want them to feel that humans are enemy. You know? Yeah. It also makes them like more confident, I think. And it's also better for them because it makes them like, you know. I think they learn from those interactions, right? Yes. Overall, oh, these are humans. This is how this human and this human. Yeah. And of course, when I train my dog, then he should only interact with me. But outside the training field, I want to socialize them well with humans. I don't socialize them so well with other dogs because I only have like a one dog at home. But I also give them like good experiences with some friendly dogs. But if I walk with them, I don't want them to say hello to every dog what we see on the street.

Because they have to also learn to pass them and not get like too excited about other dogs in every situation. But yeah. How do you feel about the endurance part and just like the outside training behaviors, but just maintaining some endurance and stamina? Do you do anything outside like treadmill swimming? Like any things like that more specifically? Not just for fun, but like actually because you want to? Well, I believe more like the sports condition. Like if we train the sport, the sport itself increases the condition of the dog. But outside I go running in the forest. I like my dog to get a lot of like free running without leash so they can like relax the muscles. It's more like relaxation than actually building the condition. So we can go like let's say 12 kilometer running. Yeah. Something like this. And I try to do this like. And 12 kilometers. That's a good run. Yeah. But it's more like they are free. They can. Sure. They can trot. They may need trot there. They can sniff things. They can. Yeah. Yeah. Calip a little bit. But it's more like this. So this I do. But I think that this kind of like explosiveness and the sport condition comes here. So that's how I have used to do it. I don't want to say that I'm not an expert of this area. So that's how I have done it. And it has been I think good for my dogs. I think the forest brings a special thing also. Between the bond. Like I think going out in the woods with your dog. Makes hit some natural instincts. And you and the dog kind of become closer because of that genetic instincts of. Okay we're in nature and we're together and we're like you and I. Right. Yeah. Yeah. There is something like this I think. And it's very relaxing kind of. Right. Like the dog can also feel more like freedom. And so I think it's like even in the big competitions like in world championships. I really like to call like long walks like like the one day before the performance. I usually don't train anything if I really don't have to. Right. And I just go like long walks or running for a few hours. Just to like let them like you know getting exercised. But still like nothing like nothing what brings like mental stress. But releases the stress away. How do you handle the days before competition? Like myself? Yeah. Like like just I mean the whole the whole thing of okay should I train? Should I not train? Should I leave it alone? Should I? You know all this. I mean I'm sure you have this. For sure. But I try to like okay first of all because I want. Like how confident you are in what you've done up to that point that okay. It's showtime. I'm actually rather confident with that.

I'm often thinking that even I'm nervous. I try to always come back for this that my dog has been prepared well. He knows what to do. So I'm not gonna like ruin it by just training because I feel nervous. So I try to like train the things that I think is necessary for like maintaining my dog. I don't change anything usually in the training. And I keep like I try to keep my dog like fresh but not like under trained. You see? Yeah yeah yeah. Like in this way. It's kind of that line between warming up but not going deep. Yeah. Like just like a regular training. Exactly like I do always. As same as possible. And then just give my dog like a few days break before the actual performance if needed. And then I'm nervous so I want to talk. I want to talk a lot. I want to go through these kind of things. But I make sure that my dog will not listen to my conversations. So my dog is like. That's so funny. You know really. I do the same thing. Like Natalia. Like she knows there is times before competition that I just I talk. Yeah. Just like this. And she's like okay yeah there is Ivan now. He's in a competition mode. Yeah. But it's really important that my dog is in a hotel room and we go to some restaurant. And I keep on talking there. And I want to be super merry mood in front of my dog. That I don't show that I'm disappointed of anything. And I don't want people to talk. Even the topic is nothing about dog sport. But I don't want to talk about politics or nothing. So that my dog can hear that I get like too excited or too nervous or something. Because they pay attention. Yes they do. They pay attention. And even when I'm sleeping and I don't sleep that well I'm like I can't turn around now in the bed because that can wake up my dog. I just keep pretending I'm sleeping. Yeah. Do you get more nervous now as the next dog comes? That you have to. Because once you have the name you have of course everybody has the expectation. Yeah. How do you handle that? The better you do the more they expect. Right. Yeah. Well actually like I think the worst ones for me was like the first world championships when I couldn't eat for three days. I was just like drinking water. I was so nervous. You know exactly like in France. Yeah. And now it's better. I can only eat. But I think it's more like about like now I have also more tools to like handle my nervousness. Give me some tips. I need that. Well like for example like okay I talk with you know like you do. Yeah. So that my dog is not hearing it. But before my performance I have found out that when I physically exercise I got this tip from the theater world. That when I make myself like sweating.

So I make like some you know like running. And I open my especially the upper parts. You change your physiology. Yeah. And then I'm even like feeling a bit exhausted. Like 10 minutes or something right before my performance. When my dog is in the car like waiting for his performance or he doesn't see this. And I open my voice. And this helps me a lot. To just like when I take my dog you know. And then I have of course some mental things too. And I'm sure you have competed like way much even more than me. So also like that I trust what I'm doing. I have my like little things that I do before I leave the house. There are some superstition moments. Exactly. That makes me feeling so much better. Yeah. Like I have always the champagne in the cold waiting for you know opening it. And I have like a certain. Or after. Or sometimes before. I put it before the cold. Okay. I never call to the stadium if I don't have my car fridge and the champagne waiting for there. And I call like and I make like a little bit space for the you know like I have the trophy stand at home. And I'm like I make space for there enough. I can bring a new one there. That's cool. Yeah. You know like. It's a cold vision you're creating. And I have the feeling if I don't do that I don't believe what I can do. Right. And then when I get really really nervous I always think and I'm thanking for those who never believed in me. And I'm thinking that I will not show them that I can't do that. I must do that you know. And I just like things just help. There is an interesting fine line between being overboard confident in yourself that doesn't. But if you don't have the confidence and if you don't believe that you can. Then where are you going right. Yeah. It's almost doomed before you start. Yeah. It's kind of like a kind of like a joke with our friends that we do that. But on the other hand we have to keep it as a joke that people don't think that we are like cocky. Right. You know. Right. But on the other hand it also makes it a feeling I have the feeling if I don't do this it's like I wouldn't believe I can do that. So yeah. So there are like little things like this and then I think the most important I think actually in training wise is that that I just act like I have learned. I think dog training is like an acting. So no matter what my dog is doing I'm going to show that I'm like super happy even I wouldn't be like super satisfied. It goes still back to the how do you walk in. What. Yeah. Who walks in the field right. Yeah. And the dog must feel you are confident. Yes. You know the upright body how you walk how you present your dog.

And if you have practiced a lot of patterns and how you and you know the rules where you can lose the points. So you have practiced already so many times how you handle without losing points for external body helps. So it's so much more easier to do actually the way how you used to do it. Yeah. Than just changing it for the competitions. And also the dog feels you more confident. I think that's also something important that. Because I know some people who are like I don't do it at the competitions. Then why do you do it here. Right. Right. Out of the three phases. Obedience tracking protection because we both do IGP. Which one is the most nerve wracking the most. The one that you just. You know. Obedience. Obedience is. It's the most important for me too. It's because in obedience you can do so many mistakes. You know what I mean. Like it's so much more about your handling. In protection. I mean it's more about how your dog interacts with a helper. You can have of course like you have to also go through your handling. But your handling is very small there. And in tracking your dog is behind like in front of the 10 meter line. Yes. And you just have to hold the line. Yeah. Tracking for me I think is probably the most like. Just because you kind of feel. Yeah. You just. Here we go. It's all up to you buddy. I just keep my fingers crossed. In obedience I feel. If I screw it up. If I fuck it up. Yeah. I put pressure on me later on. But in obedience you're way more in control. Yes you are. If you have the good mentality you can. You can manipulate your performance. Yes you can. A lot. Right. You can affect so much. I think like when you say it on that way I would say that tracking is what I'm afraid of the most. Yeah that was my point. Yeah because tracking you never exactly know how the surface will be. Too many variables. And you can't do anything. It's just like your dog will do whatever you have taught him. But in obedience you can affect. But I think like I'm more or most concerned about my own handling before obedience. I'm really prepping myself for that. That I'm going to do it on that way. I go it through in my imagination like before I even take my dog to the field. And I'm going to like I split to simple parts. Actually it feels not so difficult. I'm going to do it on this way. And that's how I react if he does this. That's how I'm going to react if he does that. And then there is that recovery when something doesn't quite go the way you want. Nobody else sees it but you know that. And now the next exercise comes. And now you have to switch and forget what happened wrong.

And you need to give 100% on the next thing right. That's a hard one. And like to not to get shaken and disappointed at the moment of performance. And to be able to okay. Yeah. Okay my seat was okay. I'm not going to dwell. I'm not going to now for the next five exercises think about my seat. How bad it was right. You have to have that ability to keep moving on to the next one. And focus how to make the next one better. What do you think of the where the sport's going? We're changing a lot. It's been changing. I mean it's constantly changing. Like from when I started. Comparing it to today. It's almost a very different. Like a very different sport. And there is good and bad things in my opinion. Of the direction we're taking. But if we break the obedience for example. How do you feel where we are going? Because I think judges and the trainers. We. You know I'm not going to even say. I just let you hear. What do you think of where we are today? I think the cool thing. Are we going in the right place? Where are we going? I think the cool thing is. That we are like giving more attention. To the dog's emotional state. That the judges would educate themselves. About like. What is the right emotional state? What I don't like so much. Is that if. If some judges or. And also some competitors. Are focusing too much about speed. Because it's never about the speed. It's about the emotional. Like. Like. Because you know. You can have a super speedy dog. But still the emotional state. Is not correct. And then you can have a little bit. Less speedy dog. But he wants to do it right. He does physically. And he's more balanced dog. Or something. Very clean. Yeah. Performance of the behaviors. Right. Yeah. And you can see. The dog is still like very open. Very. Like you have to look more. If the dog is feeling like good. Instead of concentrating on the speed. But still we of course. Want to have like. Not just dog who want to like. Feel good. But not putting energy. So it's kind of like a fine balance with them. Of course. Because no sport performance can be done. If we even don't talk about dog sports. But nobody goes to play hockey. I'm just happy to shoot around here. You know. The book. They must be the determination to do it right. To you know. And the techniques and everything. But I think it's important that we find the right balance. And we understand that we look the emotional state. And how the handler is working correctly and everything. But. Like. Like. And also like. How to say. Um. Understanding a little bit like. Like better the dog's personality. And. And. And. What is like. Like. Good enough for excellent. That we don't kill. You know.

The good dogs on the field. Just by expecting even a little bit more. It's like with long attacks or anything else too. Yeah. Yeah. True. We can have the dog who comes the same speed all the time. Comes with a very full grip. But we can have another dog who comes like even speedier. But it's not the competition of the. Of the. Speed. But I think this. I think it's like. A lot of handlers should also educate themselves. With the rules. A bit more. And also judges. That we. Um. Understand better. Like. That. Where the points are coming. Like you mentioned before. The speed and the flashiness. But not sacrifice precision. And then. And the confidence. And the confidence too. Yes. Yeah. Like the dog can. You know. You know. It's also like the confidence. And the ability to focus. I think that's something. What I really actually would like to say. Is that. Like when we look about the dog. In the trials. Like in obedience. We need to see dogs. Who are able to focus. On what they are doing. And not just super speedy. Who are like all the time. Looking around. You know. We need. Because. That is something so important. That. We don't need like. Hectic dogs more. We need dogs. Who are like. Willing to do. What we ask from them. But able to like. Focus and concentrate. Because if we. If we lose this one. What is left. Nervous. Nervous. You know. Yeah. Nervous dogs. Yeah. So I think that is something that. You feel judges are getting better at it. Better. Yeah. Like reading the dogs. And knowing. Because they are the ones that. Like it or not. Yeah. Dictate where we are going. They do. They do. And I think. Yes. Also. I have been like. Seeing recently. Like one of the very good judges. Like working. And I think that they have been talking about this. Because I think there was like a moment that. Like after 2010. I think it was like. Wow. We can have like very active dogs. Very energetic dogs. And then people didn't give attention about this kind of like. Like looking around. Hecticness. And so. If the dog just was fast. And then I think that now we have come back a little bit for this. That hey. We actually need dogs who can be calm. Who can focus. Who don't whine. And who can still perform powerfully. And I really love this. That we have been even. You know. Starting to focus on this more. So you like where we are going. Well of course. But we have to also remember that I have seen like competitions. Like with very good judges recently. Right. So like our national championships for example. We had a very good judge there. He's going to judge also in FMBB. So kind of way I like it. That many judges have been now at least talked about this. That we shouldn't.

Like only focus on the speed. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good thing. But still keeping this emotional state like there. How do you feel they. Like I mean we all feel. The pressure of. Different animal groups of. What is the dogs under too much pressure. And what is. You know like. But. How much do you think. Those groups. Influence. Where our sport is going. And should we. Follow. Everything that they. Want to see. Us. Yeah. Well. No. I think that we. I think it's somehow. Especially important in our sport. That. People should understand that. These dogs we train for this sport. They love fighting. That's their life. Like they like to take the challenges. And so I think that. For example when we talk about like a stick hits. Or something. For our dogs. That love this sport. For them it's just like a challenge. They enjoy all that. They are waiting for it. Just like yeah. Give me more. I'm going to give you more too. And so. And then. And somehow like. This is something. What I. Lack of understanding. Is that why we. Don't go. And show to the politicians. Show to the people. Who don't do dog sports. Like look at our dogs. How much they like. Like like. Like when I take my dog from the. You know from the. Kennel. Before I brought it like to the field. Yeah. He was so happy. He was like. He was like jumping around. And he was like. Let me go there first. Now I'm like. We have to go to pee first. You know. And he's just like. It's like extremely happy. I. I never see him so happy. Ever before. You know. Yes. And. And he's gonna get. In the training field. Like you know. The helper. He's gonna challenge him. He's gonna like. You know. Hit him with a soft stick. And he loves it. But so it's like. But that people shouldn't think dogs as a. Like. Even with humans. We understand that we have different personalities. Some of us. Like different sports. Yeah. We like figure skating. And somebody likes. Ice hockey. Exactly. And then. And they love it. And then. And some don't. And we have the same with dogs. And we should never train a dog to this sport. Who don't like this. And we know for sure dogs. That. But we can see it. Even before the stick hits. We say. Oh. This is not the sport for your dog. Yes. And he will never learn to love it. And then we have dogs who just love it. The most of their life. You know. Like. That's the best thing. Like. What they can imagine in their dreams. And I think that. We just should like more educate people. What we are doing. Instead of trying to like say. Oh. Oh. We don't do this anymore. Because somebody says that. It's harmful for the dog. And I think. I think we. Starting to understand. That it's important to educate. And explain. What we do. Yeah. Because otherwise.

We are leaving it to them. To come to their own conclusions. And they're so wrong. About what we do. Yeah. And I think we also shouldn't leave it to the clubs. We should actually like. Unite dog trainers. And start this kind of like a worldwide movement. Like what they have been now doing. What is starting right now. What is starting right now. That we don't expect that somebody else always does it for us. Yes. Because they don't. It has to be us who react on this. And show how much our dogs love this sport. And how good it is for our dogs. And to our relationship with them. And I think this is something. What I think we should like. Fight more. Yeah. We have to. If we don't. We will just keep following the demands that they put. Yeah. To where ultimately. We will change the. The sport will not have the element that we like. And the dogs like. And what the dogs like. Is that challenge of competition. Yeah. You have this book in your library. Called like. From. Like a Mikhail. Mikhail. something like teaching me hello you know about the flow yes very early 1970s he was like he was actually like making researches about human's motivation and he found out that the humans were not the most happy when they were just like calm and relaxed but they were the most happy when they found the flow state which means that you have you have to have a challenging task you have to feel that you have everything what it takes and then you have to feel some like disappointment on your way there and then you feel like so great when you can accomplish that yeah and i believe i'm getting goosebumps because i know that's the that's the whole point and i'm the true believer that when we talk about working dogs it's exactly the same to them like they don't live to be happy on the couch like there are many force-free trainers think that they are just like super happy when you just make them calm 24 hours in a day and you've overfeed them and you just make them like walking silently in the garden no they are the most happy when they have a challenging task and a purpose purpose overall purpose in being and they need to have like the feeling that sometimes it doesn't go right they get feedback you need feedback to find the flow and when they really find the flow that's what they find they fly they find it in obedience they find it in tracking they find it in protection and that makes them the most happy and i believe that they are much more happier than if we would just walking around the block on a flexi and feed and sleep yeah and and i and i

understand that we have some dogs perhaps that the life is already so challenging task for them they are so fearful that you just have to make the life more calm for them very true our dogs they don't need ever depressive medicines they don't need that because they are so you know they are brave dogs who love to who love the life and they love to challenge themselves and that's what makes them most happy very good point this is the stuff that need to win like our community needs to bring up like like we have to be on a mission to educate yeah and explain that because they like i mean you and i know the arguments they have they will be like oh no you you're selecting them purposefully to be doing this but ultimately if you didn't they wouldn't want to do it and this is all inhumane on an even deeper level than the training because you're breeding them to be these dogs we are breeding happy and brave dogs who enjoy the life which is much more human thing to do and more ethical than the breed dogs who are so fearful that they get like broken if you say them no my point right and i think it's so inhuman and so so unethical the breed dogs purposefully who are like already so fearful that you don't ever have to even like anyhow correct them because if you have a dog who loves the life who loves to explore things yes for sure you must say them sometimes no you can't do that but on the other way of hand they are like okay well give me another what should i do then you know and then you just like ah and even to go further with this even with those shy dogs i mean it can be it can be um i don't know golden retriever comes to mind but probably not the any any dog that's not necessarily a malin or a shepherd or whatever yeah and it's a little unsure even these dogs they can do a little bit of obedience and protection and tracking just like a insecure kid that goes to the gym and does some martial arts and and feels comfortable and confident with themselves right about children we give them sports because that builds their self-confidence and we all know that if we just try to keep children sitting all day and and especially when we have like like dogs who children who have like some uh hyperactivity and we just like try to keep them calm we even know from those interventions of the child education that they are more happy when they when we include more sports to their school program even that helps them yeah and and and also when you have more shy we give them like hobbies we try to like encourage them to be like more brave and and there are like a lot of

biological factors that are similar with dogs and humans even we don't humanize dogs but this is one of them that we do exactly the same we give them like mission we give them like sports to do and and we we uh give them resilience the kid yeah your team lost not everybody can always win every day it's normal this is life yes and that's how they get like you know this um there was this kind of um like a psychologist um um we talk about like uh like he called it like um how to say um uh curling parenthood i've heard that yeah yeah you know the curling like when you smooth the eyes that the book can call like like you know like yeah and they found out in in many researches that those children who who never felt any adversities in their younger years they actually have like they have much more bigger frustration much more bigger problems in their life later and i believe it's the same with dogs i mean i have seen it like so many times at dogs that you never you're like afraid of like ever disappoint them yeah they have much more like bigger problems when they become adult it's normal to say oh you can't do this today but instead i help you to find out the right solution and they learn to trust us they learn to overcome obstacles and they have much more happier life and then we can also use more emotions make them more happy make the life more exciting because we can control them there is a book i i always recommend and like at my school i i it's one of the recommended books yeah uh punished by rewards yeah i think av i've been cohen or something like this and we can post it in the in the yeah later and like that the the main takeaway from the book was that in humans with children which is translates immediately into dog training is that sometimes we fail because we are reinforcing we're giving a reward to a kid for doing something that the kid already likes to do yeah and as we reward them over and over they start to now tend to do the thing that they originally love to do yeah now they're doing it for the reward that they're getting from somebody and focusing and allowing them to creating something that hey you you like doing this let's make it even better instead of sidetracking them to oh let me give you money let me give you new phone let me it's like yeah i know what you mean because that was exactly what i did with my first talk with my very first like when i was 14 years old and and i was like reading from the book that every time when your dog does like a poo outside give him a treat but before i read that book like like i read it like when he was

like i was all i'm constantly like reading the books like and i remember that first he was so happy to come to him and i just praised him i was like yeah you were super nice super good boy or something and then i started to give like treat for him and then i suddenly realized after like one week that he wasn't anymore so happy about my praising he was just like expecting the you know the food and he was kind of like like and i'm kind of like and then that was the first time when i realized something that rewarding the dog like by treat is not always solution you know kind of like okay it's a bit different thing but i understand exactly what you mean that sometimes and he was like kind of like expecting this and doing it only but not because of doing you know uh it's it's yeah i think it's like in in in training some when when we build that expectation in the dog okay you gave me command give me my reward you gave me command give me my reward yeah and we take away that interaction and enjoyment of just yeah you and i doing it yeah the engagement the kind of the the the fun to interact with the human and and just love to do cooperation together and i think it's like like we talked before that uh like how to build for example the rock in the stage it is like oh i want to come next to you i want to do the healing with you i want to look at your eyes and when that's the best reward of course we also can reward from that you know and especially when it comes like harder longer and everything later you know so we also maybe have to have the end reward and the end reward doesn't uh only spoil the joy of doing it but if that's the only reward and we don't think about emotional communication at all then it's a bad thing so it has to be like like the interaction and training must be fun equally yeah with the reward and the same thing even with the even when you give the dog the ball it's not only the ball i have my ball or you can have it hey i have my ball let's go right yeah like you have the ball wow we can both be proud of you look at what you have instead of just like give the ball toss the treat and then wait again like it's like it's like it's like erasing something so important from the training you know i i just thought of like i had i did this one time in a seminar it's a very cool story to to to show how important it is the emotion and who you are at the moment when you interact like i had i don't know where he was but i had person after person after person just saw like okay i'm giving you the treat so you should be happy like man this is not working out

what do i do and of course i picked up a social dog that i can handle like i i will make your dog way more motivated and more intrigued to work with me for rocks and i literally went outside and grab kind of bigger rocks so he's not swallowing them yeah and i'm like and sit oh there's the rock and he's like what the is the rock i'm like no let's play he's and he's trying to whatever but now you have this dog with the tail and everything he's like i want to work with you yes it's no you cannot count on that magic of that hot dog or the ball on its own you have to you have to be present and and real in that interaction yeah and that i i don't know that was a while back but i just somehow remember it um it's not a presentation yeah you know but it's like it's like with people like if if we go to let's say we go to a restaurant and there comes a waiter and he gives you the perfect meal what you want and he gives you the perfect drink what you want but if it's like a very nice waiter he's like she's or he or she you know they can be like very oh like how how are you right did you like it and he's smiling or even more like they're like oh you made a really good choice with that what you order versus like oh you ordered this okay thank you for your order yeah but the whole because we are social beings as like humans so we like the interaction and if everything is like the food was good the drink was good the service was very comfortable you you feel that you are like at home you know you feel like that you are appreciated and and and there is an interaction it's so much more you can forgive a lot yes it didn't go right exactly like maybe your steak was like medium plus instead of medium rare but you are still like yeah but you know they really they really understood me yes and i think dogs really want that the handlers and the dog owners understand them and if you can give them this feeling that i got you she really understands me i'm the special boy here you know and that's what makes their day and also it makes our day so much funnier to also our train as as for trainers and just like tossing the ball and be like right here is the ball for you fools it never works and we see it all the time oh yeah it's always good how about anything being pick anything and you're running into problem some the dog is not clear where do you how do you any any specific strategy more general than the specific behavior how do you handle when it always clearly like it's not that it's just a confusion maybe maybe he's getting it okay i think this is what you want me to do and it keeps doing

it over and over but it's not what you want him to do do you how do you isolate how do you work with problems uh this in general yeah this depends a little bit like always in the situation uh so one can be that do we have like do the dog has like other chances to do it like um how to say this um when we have like a young dog let's say that the environment is like like we are inside the house there are no distractions and i have a dog who wants to try again and again and again i can ignore it and let the dog try again because i know that he will try again yeah and then he can he can succeed and i can reward the behavior what he tries but then we can have in another environment where we have like a lot of other possibilities to do it wrong and and and something that uh how to say i usually give feedback and the feedback means that uh like i i'm like thinking a bit on this way that i can either give feedback which means that i can uh give positive feedback and negative feedback like no don't do that i don't want you to do that but i can do it in different ways i can do it in a way that the dog feels it like a punishment or the rock just feels like a feedback because if we think what what the punishment actually means it means that we are adding something uncomfortable for the dog's life yeah so the dog must feel like unpleasant after i i i use punishment yes but if i say just like no don't do this like no like this voice for example i popped a leash like hey don't do this but this look is like oh what and you can see from the doctor i see small like oh what do you want me to do so it was not something uncomfortable the rock didn't feel unpleasant it was more like stopping his behavior and say hey pay attention and the rock was like oh what do you want me to do and i go oh look at me do like this instead and i can reward him then of course after this or i can give him a new mission to do like sit or jump again or whatsoever um let's say the rock is like jumping over the hurdle and and he touches the hurdle and i'm just like no come here let's do it again and the rock is then feeling a bit that's more like a punishment because the rock feels like oh uh i didn't get my toy which i expected to get yeah but then let's say uh and then i do it okay sit again jump again and now the dog jumps without touching the hurdle and then i reward him so this was more like a punishment because the rock felt it like oh you didn't give me something what i expected right yeah he gets a bit disappointed but not too badly and then i erased it is important yeah it's important i can't reward him

from all behavior if i want to improve some other behavior and then another situation can be that my dog heals he's very active he's very good but something unexpected happens a noise for example outside and he looks at there and i can turn the right i can make a little pop on the leash so dog is like what and he looks at me i don't say anything because i don't want to increase some negative emotions in him and make him feeling unpleasant it's more like pop and he's like what i'm like wow that's exactly what you should be doing and i praise him and i reward him and this is more like a feedback he was like it's more like if you watch it there and i'm like hey look what's there there's a rainbow and you're like thanks for showing me this rainbow i would have i wouldn't have noticed you know so it's more like this and then and and then and this is what i do like in some situation and i reward my dog but then let's say that uh after my dog already understands this and he's very very good i can also make it one time if they're like like still keep on doing sometimes he looks around in the healing i can make it a bit more stronger so that the dog is like i can make a right turn one pop and the rock has already come there one more and like wow now so there was a little more slighter like it was a little unpleasant feeling for the dog like which took like one second and then i can make make a super reward for him after that and then then that's more like hey i don't want you to do this again if i want to add it more unpleasant so it's possible to do it like one day for the dog to like stop completely the dog doing the mistake what i want him to like stop doing and then i want to increase his good behavior so so you see my point here so there can be like different ways of like interacting with the dog uh i have to always try i always aim to be very um fair for the dog and always like not punishing him when he like he wants to do the healing right he loves it but he just still thinks that some some kind of distraction is more intriguing yes and then one day i can say hey this is something i have told you now a few times but now we have to stop like reacting of this have to take it out of his mind yeah and then it's like very clear and then the rest of the dog's life usually it's like i don't have to do it again he chooses like oh actually that was not something that i want to do and that is something that i really want to do but first he's of course motivated like a couple of years for this so it's very simple choice for the dog you know it's like with humans you know tell me

about the school or is it a school how it's like online lessons you do right or you have um how what i have done like um like like online lectures um some of my my own dog training videos where i explain why i'm doing these and so on um like if somebody wants to go into it yeah it's like um i'm like um now when i wrote the book so i'm gonna do like more online like like online courses in the future so we are just like uh opening it like like we will change some things because i felt that people need to have a bit more like interaction like more uh so we will do like four weeks courses yeah like how to become like a better dog trainer like how to use your emotions and so and this will start like in a few months um and i think that i will change a little bit more for this direction so we have like like we have some online lectures there and some some videos available like hundreds of my own dog training videos available but i think we will go more for this online courses yeah do you like the seminars like going going places or you would rather be home um well actually like i really i'm a very social person so i also like love to meet people and and it's nice to go to see different dog cultures and interact with people but of course like um now i have a young dog and i also want to train my own dog he needs me so i'm gonna focus in the next few years more my own dog training and i will do a little bit more online training than life seminars because my dog needs me yes the new dogs are coming we're gonna be on the field back again i'm so looking forward for this and i'm so happy that we have like we all have like now like so many like cool young dogs yes yes and that's the that's the i think the very interesting part of the what we do because we you know we are not the same people we were yeah and we train and we improve and and then we meet again and then again and it's a this is the the most interesting part of the whole thing but it's also like it's also interesting that we often see the same people there again and again yes and again but it's also that what i want to see also like like if i can say like one thing for like beginner trainers who maybe watch this podcast is that look how we look our emotional communication more than our technical details because once you can communicate emotionally well with your dog you can mix different methods always what fits best for your dog but that's why we can always bring the dogs our new dogs there again and again and like like how many times you have been there in the world champs i don't know a lot like some records

probably yeah and and so it's like and why you can do that is because your emotional communication is so right clear and dogs can really read you understand you and they want to work with you you know what's the coolest part of for me at the championships of course watching the watching the competition it's yeah it's interesting sometimes i watch sometimes i try not to because it kind of messes with my mind but i really like watching training that the day before like the practice you call it the general practice yeah yeah i think that's one of the coolest thing to see and not even it's not like you're trying to obviously there is not much that you see uh of the training secret so to speak yeah yeah but it's the how everybody feels at the moment before competition and what they do it's super intriguing like i i whenever i can it's not so often because of course we're busy trying to prepare our own dogs and staying whatever but every time just sit down on the bleachers and watch that practice of different teams it's for me it's very it's just as equally interesting as the actual competition yeah because then you you're like okay i i see what's up or i see how you feel or i you know and there is this thing about training that's always interesting when um you look so good in training and somehow you just cannot put it at the time when it's important and that means your training is not sound because you're training for the training and not for the actual show time yeah there must be something like too different right in your training then because to be honest like if i think about like my competes and performances my dogs have always done exactly what i have taught them to do they haven't done any they haven't been like really big surprises really right i mean if there has been something and there has been of course i don't mean that my dog have been like errorless in competition not at all but all those things i could have predict to happen and it has been very clear why did it happen why the doctor this is made this is this mistake and also then it's easy also to fix them you know but it's not something that my doctor just does some random weird things you know in the competition right it it it it it just does it's this thing about training really training for the competition versus training to look good in the training yes yes and it's so tempting to look good in the training but you know that everything revolves around something that the dog has and he cannot take it on the competition field and then they feel like lost and the trainer at that

point it's like well and then the different excuses come yes yeah but never come to that conclusion that i'm not really training for the competition i'm just training to look good at the training yes and like my worst training maybe ever or it looks not the best for sure was like before i did like 100 points in obedience with helga a long time ago yes and not that i was like super happy myself even like i don't believe like generally that it was my best performance though because i saw all the mistakes like yes because you're here yeah yeah and i i kind of felt like things that wasn't visible in the in the videos later but i could feel like i i like some other trial like better personally but it's still like that my training they never look like completely faultless you know i can have sometimes i can do purposefully like training that everything goes like super fun because my dog needs it just to push the confidence and now we don't look any errors but also those training sessions where we have the mistakes they are needed to improve the behavior yes what i find problem and it's not even just for our sport but for all dog training going on is that as a community or industry or whatever you want to call it dog trainers are just like with any profession you know like you can have a hairdresser that should not be a hairdresser gonna just burn your scalp five times and eventually you know they should not be practicing that and we have in dog training bad training going on in some places and it's uh uh he almost so frustrating and sad at the same time that because somebody does something really shitty to a dog it translates to everybody else and i am now put in that same position as i'm one of those people that do these shitty things to dogs you know and we have no no structure and no way of and i'm not even thinking i don't know maybe policing each other is not a good thing because then who is the one to say what is okay and what is not okay i i just hate it when when um somebody sees something on youtube or facebook or whatever and being ring sport or igp or or any training and it's like oh look what they do and then make that that grand conclusion that this is what everybody does and the one side is us educating what we do and how we do but we never at least i don't think anybody ever has the courage to kind of say well publicly we talk amongst each other but to to say hey this is not right which we we don't support this you know what i'm saying like this i think if if there was a some way that this can happen i think we would be better trainers and we would protect our sports um

and even even more it goes even deeper than this because you have trainers that do this kind of stuff and for some reason many many other trainers think that this is actually what we should be doing so it's it's almost like oh i'm also very hard on my dog because that's what we do it's like like that's not what we do i think the the biggest problem what we have is this that when we talk about dog and human relationship it's like with humans there is like no one similar relationship than it and than the other so every relationship every connection is unique so so is the dog training like they try to divide always like the bad and the good you know and that the force free or the force free or the force trainers for example that's that's not true like there are as many training methods as we have humans in this world who own the dogs and even each one of those human train each different dogs like differently so basically like we have millions of ways of interacting with a dog dog and not just two ways you know right we can do so much bad just we we all good dog trainers we know this that if we even we wouldn't use for example any physical corrections we could just really damage stock like mentally like psychic like how you call it psychologically psychologically it's like psychologically we're we're foreigners so we say we say in front yeah exactly exactly we say like obviously no doubt okay so no doubt we will do that psychologically we can damage the dog really hardly uh but just like like like like not rewarding them when they expect that and and and uh and just like um being wrong in timing not using emotion when we shoot just giving a treat that can be also very damaging like in many situations on the other hand around we also have like trainers who can use like very very hard physical corrections without the dog understanding it and we can also damage the dog very badly but it's the same like with humans we can mentally and psychologically damage a human even more than physically sometimes you know we can make a lot of pressure yeah 100 percent you know like like keep taking their freedom away there are a lot of things for that and um and i think that's that's a that's the first thing what we should understand that that it's not only two ways there are millions of ways so even like even the people who train very similar than i do even they train a little bit differently yes and so that that's the first thing but i i kind of like i i really understand what you say that it's hard to like stand up for

something like what's like acceptable to do and what is not acceptable to do because in the end we should always aim to look for the good for the for the dog i think if there are better ways to train this particular dog like more dog friendly ways we should always go for that if possible but then there are also some situations where we know that there is no other way to fix the dog's behavior than kill the dog you know euthanize him yes but if we can solve the dog's problems with physical corrections for example then we should go for that way because the death is always worse yes than fixing the dog's behavior and then keep a good life for the dog so they're like it's like a it's a kind of there are like ethics are very difficult topic to discuss about because yeah the force free idea is a very such a good intention that goes awfully wrong i've had i've had like sometimes like i and it's hard to to post people's videos you just never want to do that but i i recently had some um two trainers i wouldn't even say male female from another country and they send me a video of a dog and it's like hey we're like really doing all force free and they were doing a down stay with the dog and i don't think even was for any sport or might have been because i just saw a you know that short video and they were so proud that they don't use any aversive no nothing you know it's force free and the dog looks so miserable there like it looks like it's been just so so uncomfortable yeah but the fact that there is no physical direction that is force free they somehow explain themselves cannot see that yeah the dog is like really not in a good place yes and i saw exactly the same like there was like a finnish uh kind of like a pita organization it's called like right for the animals and they published a video how the dog training should be done instead of like physically like correcting the dog and they used like a malinois and it was obviously i think some foreign trainer who did it so it wasn't a finnish trainer they have taken it from some video bank or somewhere i don't know where they even found that video but this person was doing like down from motion with the dog and using this kind of like a touching stick or something like that you know and the dog was like the whole body language of the dog was like so unpleasant like you could see that the dog was feeling pressure and the dog was like ears behind and very closed going down and i'm like couldn't they found like any better video of promoting there because if my dog would ever show that emotion in the training i would feel so bad for my dog

no matter what's my even training method but i would see that the dog is not enjoying what he's doing and they just couldn't see that so the ideology goes like in front of the dogs like real emotions you know like yes and that is something what we should always i think we all actually aim for the same goal kind of i was just gonna say yes we are truly wanting exact same thing but we are so disconnected yeah of of oh you are the bad person yes and he's like come on yeah and we actually should like like like we should like talk more together we should like interact more because the more we would do actually like like a real life interaction yes we could show we could maybe because eventually we we we all want that our dogs feel good yeah yes ultimately we are but really dividing people like that's how the war propaganda works ultimately it's like that you have to make the the enemy like like faceless they must be so bad people that they must be kind of like killed because otherwise people wouldn't be able to kill them and the same is a little bit now when we have this kind of war between like you know trainers who were you know use like sometimes corrections and then people who like we don't ever correct our dogs whatever they do and it's like it's like uh it's kind of like uh it's it's not good for or ultimately it's bad for the dogs the dogs are suffering the most from this and i think we could actually learn from both sides there is knowledge all around yes all around yeah and we should respect respect always like more and interact more instead of like defining people like you know in our like in the states there is you know there are a couple of organizations or maybe there are more that you know there are the force free like the one is that apdt and they do really anything possible to bring a very high wall between it's like if you want to join our organization you cannot have this equipment this equipment you cannot be this kind of trainer you cannot be balanced you cannot whatever yeah it's such a wrong strategy it is like bring those people in the way they are yeah and then show them something better because who is that trainer that if you show me something good like let's say i always give this example let's say just as we're right here right now and we watch some video and it happened to be in hong kong and we we can recognize something new and something interesting we're gonna want to know right we're not we're like how do you do that let's go to hong kong or let's get that person here we we

immediately interact yes and when we put this wall it's like well no you're very wrong but you cannot come in because that's inclusive for only force free if you if you want to gain our hearts and bring us in you know what's the way to do that person and then we're going to do that person and then we're going to yeah we are very keen to learn and i think you know if you want to believe in science well what the science says about learning is that we humans we learn the best in a positive encouraging environment you know when when when when we feel like safe in safe in my psych psych psychologically safe environment we learn the best and i i really lack of understanding that if this is the best way of teaching dogs and humans when why don't we use that way of teaching humans to learn like better ways why would would you ever choose to teach a dog by pushing him first down showing how stupid the dog is showing how wrong the dog is doing and then start to bring the dog like step by step like okay because of my mercy i can show you something new you wouldn't because you know that your dog would be forced to learn that and it would be never really like desired to do what you want and then i'm really lacking understanding why would we do the same for humans because ultimately i'm not going to be able to do what you want to do what you want to do like desire to do what you want and then i'm really lacking understanding why would we do the same for humans because ultimately skinner they were like and those people who were like making those researches about animals they made it to benefit humans you know what we can learn from animals we can actually use with humans about learning yes yes that was the whole point yes it was a whole point so i'm like I'm lacking understanding because I have learned how I became a world champion was participating to all top trainers seminars and trying to learn. I always look the best part of their work and trying to learn from them. Every time I have a chance, I do this. And no matter about the sports, I have invited to Finland like obedience world champions, like FCI obedience world champions to give seminars and I have learned from them. I actually gonna have a podcast with her. I'm not gonna give the name right now. Or should I? Yeah, you should. Eric says we shouldn't, we should keep it surprised. But you know, one of the, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But this is the thing. It's collaboration. We have to collaborate. And respect and learn. Yes. And it's not about my way or the highway. It's like, maybe it is your way. But if you come up

down, look down on me and say, well, science says, I'm, I am like, okay, science says, but let's go and do. I want to do it that way. And now you are like, no, you're, you're already a bad person. You cannot change. Okay. Yeah. That's, that's, it cannot be more wrong than that. No, I mean, that's like, so the wrong approach. And yeah. And I'm really willing to like, interact with different style of trainers, you know, and, And somehow we always find a good way when it, when we're like this, when we're not on the keyboard, cha cha cha you. But yeah, we actually say, hello. Hey, I'm, I'm Ivan. I'm Mia. And next thing, you know, we have common grounds. We all like dogs. We all look for the best of the dogs. Yes. And, and that's already a perfect start. Yes. Uh, and it could lead for so many good things. How do we break that? That's a, it's a, it's a hard one, this one and the other one where, where, you know, you, like every once in a while, some, some crazy, stupid video with somebody just helicoptering a dog. It's like, what are you doing? Yeah. And on top of what are you doing? It's like, don't put me in the same. Yeah. Like, like, I'm not that person. And it is so unfair to expect that because somebody else does something, you know, you have two hands. There's another person who has two hands and does something really bad with his hands to the dog and expecting that you do the same with your hands. Right. Right. Right. Right. Exactly. But there is so many good things in, in everywhere, in dog training. Like when you think about five years ago, 10 years ago, 20 years ago, like we are progressively getting so good and there is who knows where we're going to be in another 10 years, as far as how we train, but we have improved so much. And we are so aware of, of appreciating the dogs and the dignity of the dog. And, and, you know, and, and, you know, like when we talk about the hands, which can do good things and bad things. Uh, and, and, and even we will see a person who does some bad things with their hands to the dog, then instead of like going and saying like, oh, you horrible human being, you shouldn't do that. Instead of that, we could go there. If we have a better solution, we could say, you know what, I would have a really good solution to do this, like better with your dog. Like, like, like, or not even like saying it on that way, but I can say, I have a solution to this problem to solve it with a way that your dog feels better. Let me show it to you. Would you like to be, would you be interested in that? I'm, I'm, I'm pretty sure that if we really

have the solution to do it better and we can show it to those people, instead of like judging them and, and humiliating them, we could help them more. Yeah. I mean, I mean, even like, like, there have been like a lot of like researches about like, I think even like people in the prison that, that who have done some obviously bad things in their lives to the other people. And, and, and then if we actually, instead of like thinking that they will be like convicted for, for the rest of their lives, if we try like re-educate them, showing them a better way to, you know, handle those situations and, and giving them like a purpose of their life and so on, they can actually come back and be much more like, um, better like, um, how to say integrating, uh, for the society. Right. Instead of just like saying that, you know, you are doomed for whole of your life. And the sooner we do that, the sooner we have the solution out, the more we are like, no, you're, you're a bad person, then what else do they have? Yeah. And to be a bad person and continue that. But I think the most important is to really give the real working solutions, not just giving them like empty hopes, you know? Yes. You have to give like, like what to actually do. And that is something that what I'm missing, like so much, like, uh, for example, in my country, that when we try to educate people like about ethical dog training is that actually show videos how to do it. Yes. Show the real life training, how to do it better. And then you have to see the results. Yes. You know, and not just like talking about some abstract things. It has to be like real solutions. How often do you go and give seminars? Uh, like last year, I think I did something like 25 seminars. Right. Which is crazy. I used to do so many too. The reason people invite you for seminars is because they see something special and they want to learn it. This is human nature. We starve to be better. But they see first the results. Right. Exactly. They must see and then they get interested. It's like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm the best. I'm better than the others. No, I don't say I'm better than the others. I just show what I can do. Yes. And then they invite me. And I would actually hope the same. And if we were to do exactly this, which is the most natural way of moving forward, there will be no sciences or let's ban this or whatever. It's like we are all moving in the right place, but we are all searching for the way. Yeah. Very quickly it can happen. Yeah. And definitely because we care about our dogs and our dogs emotional state, we actually would like to go there

always with the most dog friendly way. Don't we? Why wouldn't we? Yeah. Why would not? Right. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and, and even that, that if it's like unfriendly way for the dog, the dog would never show good results really like in the training and competitions if it's like unfair. And dogs are like, like, like dogs are like always showing something in their body language. You know, they can speak very well themselves if the training is good or bad. It's one of the good things about our sport, you know, they don't lie because it's like, no, that's that dog enjoys what we are doing. Yeah. I mean, dogs don't fake. And, and I mean, we've evolved, as I said, like looking at videos from years ago, that's what we knew. That's really what we knew. I had this podcast with Helmut Dreiser a few months ago because, Yeah. Um, I don't know, we were looking the same thing. Like we're, we're watching like, oh, tracking. I don't, it was actually with some of my friends here and let's, let's invite somebody. And it's like, well, who do you invite? Let's invite somebody that's good at it. Even if it's a different take, but it's so clearly a good, good way. And so we invite him. We could invite somebody else if it's not just empty words and salad of what who says and what is better, but it's like show like you will get my undivided attention. I would want to learn from you. I mean, I'm going to go to whatever place on earth you are. I want to know it, you know? Yeah. And, and so, so, so much we have advanced and we were going forward, but we are getting more and more like this split because of some strange. But I think it's where you aim at because if you aim for the good of the dog, then you want to interact. But if you're, if you want to only have the power, if it's not about the dog's good, if it's about the power and about like war, you know, like your own interest only, not the dog's interest, not the other people's interest or so. Then it's always like, then you want to have the, like dividing people, you know, it's, it's like, that's the propaganda, how it has always been working. When you want to make war, you have to build this big ball. And it's human nature for us to do that. But, but I think that because you don't want to like, like you don't get any, you are not here because of the power. You are here because you love this sport. You love these, these dogs and you, you love just interacting, interacting with them. And that's why you want to also interact with people to become better in that.

But I think that is something that we have to always look like the benefits, like why somebody is doing something. What's the goal of it? What's the, what's the, what's the real goal, you know, behind everything? Like the same, like what happened early this month, you know, like I, I just cannot. Sorry guys, but I can't mention anything more than what I'm going to say, but for right now. But, you know, when we were talking with the people that came about making the study, comparing the different styles of training, positive and, and some of our self-training. Yeah. And we come to the table and we all have different, a little bit kind of like uneasiness. But then we talk, then we have a drink, then we get the dogs out. And then we realize we're all the same. We're in the same boat. Yes. And we had the most amazing time. Yeah. And, and I don't care what the study going to show. As long as we are on the same path of doing the right thing for the dogs, ultimately. But it's to show you how being, having this conversation is so cool. Like I try sometimes with them. It's been only one person and hats off to him. And, um, Michael Shikashi is like a force free and with aggression, but it's very well known in that community. Yeah. He's the only person that has the courage to sit and talk with me. Yeah. And it was a beautiful conversation. Guess what? The, like the, the, this extreme group, like the extreme group. Yeah. They're like, oh, you're talking to him, you're giving him a platform to, to spill this bad stuff and, and pollute your mind. And it's like, man, we're just talking because we want to be better and we want to understand each other. And you are trying to separate and divide for no reason. And, and, and the crazy thing is that even after like this podcast, I know that in my home country in Finland, they will be. Somebody is going to give it a hard time. They will be saying that, look what she's doing. There she sits with somebody who is using like a certain kind of like training tools. What we don't accept and what we think is like unacceptable. Yeah. And that's what they're going to do. And, and, and, and it is so crazy that because of this, we can get like, like, like, like, some people get so crazy about it that they are like threatening our lives. And, and, and, and, and, and like, this is, this is extreme. This is like the extreme, like, like ultimately that you have to choose that whether you speak what you think and you interact and you try to like make, um, the best for the dogs.

And then there are like people who want to like ruin your life because you just happen to love dogs and train them. And because you put everybody in the same table. It's like, no, like there is, there is good and there is bad. Let's focus on, okay, this is good. Let's, let's, let's bring it out and teach the knowledge and, and, and then this is good. And that's, again, going back to why the sport is so evolved in, in a good way, in my opinion, IGP to where right now, if you have a very good training that makes the dog makes everything, but it's emotionally not in the right mindset. He cannot make, he's not competitive anymore. Yes. This is such a brilliant way of saying, Hey, yeah, you can do it this way, but that's not what we want. Yeah. There is a better way. Okay. Well, who can teach me that better way? And then we move on and we move on. But if you say, well, there is a better way, but you can come and learn that. Yeah. Yeah. Or there is a better way, but actually when it's time to show me the better way, it's nothing better. I remember even, there was a very long time when I came to, to you and we made that seminar. And because of my training without conflict, it kind of fooled some people that it was force free. Yes. And there was this woman and she's force free and she's grabbing the dog and he's hysterically like yelling and just like red and just foaming. Like, but this is not force free. Yeah. Like, what the fuck? I'm like, okay. And I don't remember, but I was like, okay, we can, I can show you a much better way still force free, but that's what you're doing is. Actually. Oh, man. Yeah. Yeah. And all, it's all a matter of interacting between trainers. Yeah. Not dividing. Yeah. And there must be like so many researches about this, but how good actually it is to sit together and, and, and respect the others. And, and just like, that's the best way. Reminds me of a, uh, older Heineken commercial. I don't know if you've seen. No. Very fucking cool commercial where they bring, so they interview a bunch of, I'm going to put this on the link for everybody, but they interview a bunch of different people. So one is gay, one is lesbian, one is, um, it's just black, white, you know, just like the most common conflicts that we have. Yeah. Yeah. And they interview them individually and they're like, no, I would never, this is the last, they're the horrible people and, and everybody. Right. And then they put them together. They split them two by two and they don't know who is who, but they put them exactly with the person that they. Is like. Just like you. Yeah. Should not exist. Right.

And they give them some silly tasks. Like we got to build something, but I need you to help me to do it. Otherwise it cannot happen. And then they get together and just beautiful. And then of course Heineken, right. But it was a very, very like a by the textbooks, psychological, how, how we function. It's like, this is what makes it not how you talk on your own. Like you interact with somebody and next thing, you know, at the end of the whole commercial, they're like, well, give me your number. Cause we got to stay in touch now. You know, like it just changed it for half an hour. They changed their perception of each other because of it. And we, we got to be able to do that. Yes. And I, and I really love because in a lot of my seminars, I have like people from agility, from obedience, from rescue. So I don't have only IGP people in my seminars. And especially in abroad. And I, I just love it because in the end, it's all about how to communicate with dogs. It's not about what you want to teach with your dog, to teach to your dog or something. And, and also the respect. And I respect all the trainers all around the world, all sports, whatever they do. Even if you don't even train the dog for the sports, but you are just good with communicating with your dog. Yes. That, that's it. Yeah. It's not about. That's what it's about. Yeah. And, and I think that we can, we can learn from so many people. Like, like, like, like they often ask me like, who is the person that was your mentor? Yes. Yeah. That's a, did you have that person? And I'm like, well, like, um, in my book, I'm describing two of them, like, who, who like affected, like the trainer I became. I didn't have like a, one particular person. I would say that that person is like over everybody who was my teacher or something. And I learned from all of them who I trained together. But, uh, there was one woman and I want to give a lot of credit for her. And she wasn't successful. Like at that time she had like briards, you know, yes. Yes. And I just admired her. Like she had like a dog who has been afraid of like gunshots and afraid of a bit of people and everything. And I was admiring her way of communicating with her dog. And she was training in the same group of searching, like searching dogs where I trained. And I just like loved her. Like I always use her as my last helper in searching. Like she was the assistant there because she was so good with her emotions. And I observed how she make her like training, how she talk, her intonations and everything.

And, and it's like, um, like sometimes you don't even have to have somebody who is like better, you know, like, like more successful than you are. But you just find out that something what she does is very special. And, and, and, and it's something what I start to look more clear. And I was adapting many things. And like many of those funny words I have given, you know, those praise voice, like just flirt and driving instructor and, and potty voice and so on. They are not from her. And she would be laughing for them now if she would hear this. Unfortunately, she died in a car accident. But, uh, she, you know, many of them were originating like, like from her, which is completely unaware. And I think it's just like, yeah, I think the best thing is just like interact with people, learn when you see a good dog training and never stop evolving yourself. Always like, you can always learn. And we want to, it's not that we don't need to learn. It's like, we want to do it because we want to, I mean, my motto is like, I want to kind of, like one of them is like, I want to become like better dog trainer every day. Like, that's like kind of an ultimate goal. It's not like winning here and there. It's just like, I love this, what I'm doing. And I want to become better off that. I'm thinking of mine, like my, from my all time dog training, like the person that really kind of, and it was similar, like your situation. Just somebody that just said something one time. And it's like, yeah, you, you're, it was my first days in Bulgaria in a club. And it's like, yeah, but. Which dog breed he had? Or she? I had, I had a, no, the person, she had a, she had a shepherd. Like it was all at the time. This is like. German shepherd. Yeah. Yeah. This was early 80s. Yeah. So Eastern Europe. So we all had these German shepherds and Czech Germans. That was like, nobody knew nothing else. And she's like, you know, you always don't question when something is shown, but it has to make sense. And if it doesn't make sense, you have to ask. Because you have to understand it. And if you cannot understand it, they're either not good at explaining or it really doesn't make sense. And that stayed with me. And it's, it's still today. It's one of the most important things. Like when you, I mean, you know, like we can watch now Eric go on the field and we can recognize if something is happening or not. And if something is happening, I know that you and I are going to go at the fence and we're going to be watching. And then we're going to be talking. Right.

And, and, but it has to, like, I think dog training, the point is to, to make it so simple that somebody that has no idea understands what's going on. Yeah. It's like, you know, I think it was some of the quotes of Einstein, you know, when he said something like, I don't. The six years old. Right. The six years old. If you cannot explain it to a six year old, you're not good at. Yeah. I think it was something like, very similar, something like that. If you can make it like simple enough to understand, you don't actually understand what's going on. You know, something similar like that. Yeah, exactly. Like that. If you really know your stuff, you can make, you can make it so simple. Yes. And that everybody can understand that. And when we show a dog, it's so simple to understand that there is the connection. Right. There is the thing. You're like, you know, like we were there, like, I think the day before yesterday or yesterday. Me, Greg, some other, I think we were watching like Yanni doing opinions with Reppy. And he was doing like, when he did his first three year, Greg was like, now I stopped talking. Exactly. It was like, this was like really cool, you know. Yes. You don't, you don't need to be a scientist. It's like, no, what, what are you doing? I need to know. Yes. That was just like, enough to stop you, like, make you like breath, like breathless. Like. I think we have to keep trying to unite. Yeah. I think that's it. I think that's a mission. No matter, no matter what. So what the others are doing, we keep uniting people. Yeah. Yes. Those who have the best interest for the dogs and their well-being and for the dog sports. We try to unite them. I think we shouldn't focus on the bad things. We should be like those who focus on like, I mean, we also need kind of like, like in every society, you need to have the armies and you need to have police. Yeah. That's how the life works. We have to have, sometimes you have to put some like limits for sure. But as what we are, I think that we should be the people who like uniting the others, you know. And there is a big number in the middle that want to. Yes. They're just lost of the two extremes. And it's like. Yes. I think that we just like should bring people together and give them options you can choose from. You know, like we say, this is the way how we do it. That's how he does it. That's how she does it. And give a lot of information, educate people, unite people, give them like a show them what is fun. Right. With dogs. And, and, and also show how much fun our dogs have with us.

And I think that's like something what I think could be like, or one of our life missions. That's what we do. Yeah. I mean, that's really like, at this point, I think we both are, I mean, of course we enjoy competing because that's in us, right? We have to, but I feel that we need to, we have to keep helping the people in the middle that are searching. Yes. Yes. And even the competing, like why you compete, why I compete, like I compete to actually prove that my method works. It's not that I'm competing against each other. Yes. I'm competing that I'm going to, I'm going to show that the way what I'm doing actually functions. Yes. That's, yeah, exactly. That's, that's very cool. Yeah. And when I go to competitions, to be like, to be really honest, it's like, I don't care. Whether you win or I'm second. If I'm second, I'm third. I have still, I have still proved that the way how I have been like training my dog is like fully functioning. It's right there. I'm still in the podium. Yes. And so for me, it's like, and I'm always competing against like myself, like how, how good I can do. I don't compete against others. I don't, I don't think about others. Yes. And this is why it's also so cool that we all have our little flavors of how we do things. Yes. And of course I watch you, you watch me and we take stuff. That's, that's also very cool thing. But ultimately you're like, okay, let me test my philosophy. I'm FNBB 2023. Here we go. We do it. We don't do it. But it's a very cool way of, hey, I'm putting the work. I think I want to know if what I'm thinking and what I'm trying and what I'm working, if it holds the ground against all those top trainers or it doesn't. And then you adjust and then you make it better. And then that's the beauty of the sport. Yes. Like to have that freedom and like, but then also sit like this and have you come here. And I go to Europe and we train together still. And it's what's, it's the beauty thing. But it's also because I have a great respect for people, you know, who can do it. And, and whose dogs are showing like, you know, the right emotions and, and who really love dogs. Right. Yeah. And it's not like, I don't feel it like they are my competitors. I feel, I feel that they are like on my side. Right. Yes. And then you want to kind of like, hey, I'm watching. Yeah. I'm paying attention. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And then there is, yeah, sometimes even, even today, I mean, it's not, it's rare, but even today we see some training that is really outdated. It's like, okay. Yeah. I mean, hopefully you wake up and you grow up and you try better. Yeah. Or you stay that way.

But if you stay that way, ultimately you're going out. Yes. You're not relevant anymore. Exactly. Yeah. That's the, like the, the, the market and the evolution. Yeah. Like everybody can recognize. Evolution is going like that. Yeah. Instead of from top down. No, we, we know a better way. Yeah. Nobody buys this. Like we're not, well, I don't know, but, but it's good. We keep going. I think like after this, like I have been so grateful to have like this one month here. Like my dog has done like so great progress. I have had like so good dog training moments, but also like other moments like I have been enjoying here so much. And I think, I think, I think. It must be the Florida. Yeah. But it's also about this safe environment, you know. Right. That you feel that, that you, you kind of like, you have people around you who kind of like want the best for you and for your dog. And it's just like, it has been like so, I don't know, it's like a, how you call it in English, like a blast or something. Blast. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Blast. Yeah. Yeah. Like, like to, to just like enjoy the dog training. Like, and I have been also very happy to see all of you working here with your dogs. And so I think my dog needs now like rest for a few weeks at home. Which is perfect. It's perfect. When I go to Brazil and then I come home and I'm like fresh to start like training him also in Finland. And it's great. When do you think, I mean, this, this spring or summer, you're going to start to putting titles now? Oh, for sure not. Oh, not yet. Oh, for sure not. How do you do it? I think it's going to take like, um, I hope I could do like BH in the end of this year. That's why we're so different. I'll tell you my story. I know. I know. Uh, and I hope I, if possible, I think next year I try to bring him to the trials like IGP1, IGP2, and then for the nationals like, well, Genesha for nationals. And then I would hope for 2025, I would be in the, you know, in the team. So this year for sure not, because I want to make him like so confident, uh, you know, like in all disciplines that, um, yeah. I feel better to go to the competitions. Not, not taking much chances basically. Exactly. Right. Yeah. And I usually bring my dog to IGP1 when, and he's like ready for IGP3, you know, like, like, like emotionally and everything. And so, and then he, then I hope, yeah, he's going to be like, um. Maybe tonight when we sit down and for a drink or something, I'll show you my BHs. They're all filmed. Like with Evo or with Django. I really love that. You would die when you would like make so much fun.

Because it's like, like if somebody see me and doesn't know me, they were like, that guy has no channel. What, what is he doing? Where is he going? I'm the control freak. So we are exactly like the, you know. The opposite of freaking our dog to competitions. Kind of like, you know, uh, I don't know if you know them, but like the formula one back in, uh, there was Niki Lauda and Senna. Yeah. Yeah. And Senna was the guy that very spontane. It's just like, uh, talented, but kind of, you know, and, and Lauda was like, uh, Germans. Like, I, I know what I'm doing and, and, and, and I think there is something like this. And that's also, that's also what is very interesting and, and makes the sport interesting because we all have a different ways. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think it's like, for me, it's like, I have to be like, like, I was so shocked. Like when Jani was already doing his ITP2, you know, ITP1, ITP2. You're putting pressure on us. And I'm like, I can't do that because like, for example, even the guardians in protection, I want to practice this like half year that I walk and I go back and I walk and I go back and I walk. Yeah. I have to, I have to be so solid because, you know, I feel like that, but it can be also something about the, I mean, I wouldn't like to say this because I come from Finland where the, we have the most equal. Yeah. So it's one of the most equal countries, like gender equal countries, like in the whole world. But I feel it's like that there is still something like men and men a little bit like this that if I fail. I know what she's saying. Yeah. I don't like failing. Yeah. No, no. I'm like, I have to be like 200% solid that my dog is like prepared for those situations. And then when I bring my dog to the trial, it's like, it's okay. Like even one year later. Right. You know, and when I count now, my dog is now, right now he became like he's exactly two years and zero months. So I'm thinking, okay, 2024 is going to be three years. And I'm going to be, he's going to be four and a half years old if I get to the world championships. He's the same than Helge. You know, like 2025. And Helge was the same. Like he was four and a half years old. And then I have like when he's four years old, five years old, six years old, seven years old. And I'm more like, I'm so much more looking forward like that he would have like the career at competitions with as less mistakes as possible. Right. You know. Right, right, right. Because I feel like the people would just kill me if I would. Yes.

That's the, that's the, that's the pressure of being already everybody looking up to and everybody expecting certain outcome. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a tough one. Yeah. It's because, yeah. When I did Django in the 90s, no, it was not 90s. It was early 2000. He was not three years old. He was vice champion. Yeah. So he won the AWDF, the old breed. He won the Malinois. And he plays second. And he was not even three years old. But he was that kind of dog. And maybe I, I was just like, oh yeah, we're training and we're competing. I didn't take it so seriously. Right. I mean, I would go on the field in the world championship and everybody's going to get drinks and nobody pays attention. And it's like some American, whatever. But then the next one, rock, it was called was 2010. Mm-hmm. And I tried to do the same with him. And he just, I feel so bad because he had so much talent, but I just throw him in the lions so soon that he wasn't ready. He was not ready. After the competition, I'm like, okay, that was really stupid. And now I have this ambition, of course, to, because he wasn't broken. And he just, we had a very poor show because of my, oh yeah, he's just like Django and he wasn't. And then somebody offered me a lot of money. And I've never sold a dog. They just did one time. And I, I sold him. And even today bugs me because I didn't went back with him. Because he had the, he had the potential, you know. And now, so, so with me, it's very different. It's like I, sometimes I feel like I'm taking my time and sometimes I'm like, well, let's go. And I think with Tarzan now, I'm very kind of more like you. Like I'm, no, no. He's not ready. We will meet there. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But this is also, that's part of the game, the interesting part of the game. And I kind of like, I can feel you because with Ratu, I was like, I was like doing a lot of things. I have like a lot of pressure. And I know people said that she can make it like, you know, like I tell you my experience. Like in my first talk, they told me, it looks good in the training, but she can never do it in the competitions. Well, I did it. She had like, like my dog had, he. We need this kind of motivation too. So my dog had like one of the best obedience is in his time, like in Finland. You can even count the IGP dogs among, even he was competing in the rescue sports, but he had a very nice like focus engagement. Yeah. Yeah. And like eye contact that didn't break, you know, and that time that was something, you know, 1990s. That was a big deal. Big deal. Big deal. Big deal. And then, and then they said to me, yeah, he can do it.

She can do it like with a, with a, like a show line dog. But when she gets like the Malinois, working like Malinois, her obedience will end up by like the dog will not like let out the ball. Because when she has a heart, heart. She has no idea how to do that. Heart dog, you know. And then there was like, of course, like Helge. And Helge was like super successful, I think, in a Finnish history. He was like, like five times in the podium in the world champs, like vice world champion, third place, third place, vice world champion. And then eventually he was a world champion. And then, and then they said, yeah, Helge was a special dog, but she can never do it. And I always can say it. I know. There is always a, a, a something. Always, yeah. She can, she can do it. She can do it with another dog. And then I had like Rattu and with Rattu I felt like a lot of pressure and I really enjoyed his training too. He was like more talented in some things. Like, like he had a good food drive. He was like very natural for tracking. And also easy for obedience with food, like, like, like teaching. Most of the food drive was like better. But he had like, we have often talking about, like with my friends about this kind of like a tunnel that if there was a tunnel and in the end there was like a tug, what the dog wants. And Helge's pipe was like very strict. In Rattu's pipe, we had like holes, you know, that things like that, like the sunlight comes and it distracts him a bit from the dog. However, so he had like not that good focus than Helge, his father, but he had like other benefits for sure. And so, so I trained him very in hurry. He was easy dog for that because he was adaptive. He had like high food drive and he was more energetic dog than Helge was. And then I trained him very quickly. And he was like in the world championships when he was like three years old and he was the youngest dog of the competition. But he won it. Nice. And he was like, but I was feeling a little bad because some things I could have like trained better. If I would have just waited and giving him more time. A little patient. Right, right, right. Yeah. And then I had like the next dog was Innspys, which was like. So it's a little similar to my story. Yeah. But then the life really hit me hard back by giving me Innspys. It was like, you had like no other choice than just wait. You know, like no other choice. I remember like Peter Scherk watching my training and saying like, Mia, what's this shit? What are we doing? When he was like four months old and I went there to train like protection and he was the kind of low, like low energy dog.

A very dominant dog who only enjoyed like fighting with a helper and controlling. But like average full drive and like just low energy. And it was like 37 degrees Celsius hot. Like I don't know how much. No, that's as hot. But it's super, super hot. It's like extreme hot. It's like in the upper 90s. It's like the highest you can have in Europe. And he was like, and Peter is like, I want to see your obedience. And, you know, I take this 16 weeks old dog from the car and I'm like, I'm going to show you something. And he's like, I don't really want that piece of food and I definitely don't want to engage with you. And then eventually I showed him again to him like when he was like, when he was like a bit like maybe 15 months old. Also summertime. And then he had a bit of time and I was already able to work with Prey. And Peter said like, you know, it looks like really nice. The exercises you do. but every time you give him the toy he looks like he wants to go to sleep with it and i have to wake him up again like really reactive and it was like yeah you know we just i'm gonna fight with him you know and and but this dog was so good for me because first of all it showed me like more to be more humble because before that i was thinking that people are just so bad with their dogs you know and i was too like feeling too superior see there is this thing too yes yeah and i think it's important you have that one dog that shows you like that you are not that good and in every training i felt like i could feel you know that that i know like nothing about dog training i have to like really work your brain never stops thinking and yeah and and so and eventually i was able to make it like like really he building him to like that level in obedience that i wanted to bring him and of course it looks different than like all my dogs look a little bit different but there are still some similarities yeah yeah yeah and he still was able to do it and it was like i think the biggest achievement in my career was like to make him doing excellent obedience in championships right than actually like winning with my previous dogs i know i know because he was so difficult dog yeah sometimes these are the the things that watching competition or watching scores on working dog doesn't tell the real story yes yes and i i remember my helper i was saying like mia you could have trained like three dogs in the same time you have trained this one dog and and and and so but it's it's important we we have and i think i'm so glad i got

him like in that point of my career and not like as my first dog for example right yeah yeah we have a lot of dogs now that like uh yeah i mean eva is helgate daughter and now kimba has the same father as yours and natalia has full so today still like we kind of like certain type of things you know that it's like uh it's interesting yeah and you know like um with my current dog like with mahis i'm like i'm training the same things but i was training with in swiss when he was five years old just because i had to do that in order to get it function and how was it by the way i i just thought of something with like the whole years and growing up like did you what was finland was it too restricted with we had like a lot of restrictions uh like for example i had a training hall i had to close it because they made it forbidden like and they actually like the thing was like this that they made like the southern finland like uh like that you are not allowed to go over the border you know you couldn't like they they isolated like the northern like the whole other finland and my training hall was like 10 kilometers on the other on the other side and most of my even customers everybody was coming from the south but i was just on the other side and yeah so so we had like we had this then we had this kind of big scandal like like we had some uh abusive training like like yeah that was very unfortunate how yeah these are the things that and so the so so so this was also like affecting so we had like two bad things like at the same time kind of so it affected our training possibilities like it was not easy to train and so i feel like that my young dog is like a little bit similar path than my previous dog was but for another reason right my previous dog was because of his character yeah and my young dog is because we just didn't train because of many reasons and when the time was over or not not over but when the borders open i had like so many postponed seminars that i had to do like a lot of seminars in the next year yeah and then it was like i'm just like have been traveling like a lot yeah there was a lot of dogs imagine like i in my opinion that was the time when ice was at his best and yeah i know there was a lot of dogs that were lost very ready yes yes and this is like you know like you and i know what that means it's not just this one time but like i know this doesn't happen again because there was like a super talented brother of my previous dog and very very good trainer like of my friend mia yeah yeah and and she kind of like and it was a very it was also like a complicated

dog like a like a a little bit look like inspi's but just like a little more adaptive one but like really it could do like really well in the world champs and they just couldn't make it because yeah for two years and then eventually the rock was like that coming out yes yeah yeah hopefully this doesn't happen again it's it's a nightmare when you have and and you put all the time and you're this is my time no nope just no just no deal with it exactly and you know i was also like qualified twice to the world champs with my previous dogs but eventually i was a bit like well he would be a bit like a gamble there you know we would never know like what yeah yeah what was gonna be the end come outcome like yeah but you know i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i mean i an hour away and supposed to be like this big fortune like all the palm reading and all of this like a whole village. But we are only going to hear the good news of our perfect future. Yeah we should be careful what we want to know. All right thank you everybody hopefully you enjoyed this really thank you for this. Thank you so much it has been a pleasure. Let's go train and do some cool things. So Thank you.