E190: 카말 페르난데스(Kamal Fernandez) - 개의 삶의 기본 요소들

So, the reason being, I think it's really relevant now, socialization, certainly for, we talk, you know, obviously globally, we're in a, there's a pandemic. And I think it's something that has been very much on people's minds about socializing their dogs. And I think it's something that isn't talked about enough. And there is so many myths and misdemeanors about socialization and the history of socialization. And I would say a lot of the stuff that I'm probably going to talk about is a little bit anecdotal. But that said, there is, from watching dogs and watching the culture of dog ownership, how we have, you know, changed the relationship that we have with dogs and therefore the needs and how they're perceived in society. And that brings us into how they're socialized. So, what is proactive socialization then? So, the, so my premise of socialization is, so just a little bit of a sort of a walk down memory lane, so to speak. So, I mean, I've been training dogs now for a little while. And as a, as a sort of a, as this is my craft, and one that I'm very, very passionate about, the, the, the timeline of how we used to socialize dogs and what we do now has very much evolved and changed over time. And if we go back even further than that, we can see that our relationship with dogs has greatly changed from there. At one point, they were basically, dogs were a tool for us. That was the original relationship with them. And then it evolved to a tool slash more, a commodity. Then it evolved into sort of a companion. And then it evolved into a family member. And now it's become your fur kid slash, you know, a surrogate child, et cetera, et cetera. So, the evolution of our relationship with the dogs hasn't necessarily aligned with the way in which they are perceived. And, and obviously, certainly in the UK, there, there's been a huge shift between how we used to socialize our dogs to how certainly say somebody like Ian Dunbar, who was a real advocate of socialization and, and people actively socializing their dogs, how that's now the pros and cons of that and what we're seeing now, which is a lot of reactive behavior, fearful behavior, dogs with lacking social skills, et cetera. So, it really, my thinking about socialization has evolved from dog ownership of my, as an individual and seeing, you know, people with dogs and dealing with lots of problem dogs and the, the very much the rise in dogs that are reactive and have, for want a better term, lacking or poor social skills. So, for, as a, as a dog owner, when I first owned a dog, you know, some 30 plus years ago,

it, we, socialization wasn't a done thing. What you would do is you'd get a dog. And if you had a dog, you would often, a lot of dogs were let out the door in the morning and they'd turn up in the evening and they'd have a great old time in the local community. And, you know, it was very much the done thing. Whilst we didn't, it was very comfortable, like our dog used to bolt out the front door, hence why I got into dog training. And she used to come back several hours later because we couldn't catch up. But largely, whilst that's not something I'd advocate or advise anybody else to do, what she had was actually really, really good dog skills because she was mixing with other dogs in our locality. And obviously that, the fallout for that is that we had, you know, dogs that were loose and uncontrollable, et cetera. So the rules in the UK become much more stringent. And we had, in the 90s, we had a real issue with dangerous dogs and, and specifically bull breeds and specifically pit bulls. So there was this huge influx of media and imagery that was telling people about the, the, the, the uncontrollable dogs and these dangerous dogs, et cetera, et cetera, that needed to be, you know, imprisoned and put to sleep and, and then got rid of society, which obviously now I think we know better, but that's a whole nother conversation. But as a result of that, there was a shift in how the belief that we needed to, there was obviously several prominent people within our industry that were really advocating socialization. So there had become the shift of, you needed to have a dog that was a, a great citizen and had, you know, loved everything and loved everybody and, and was socialized. And there was this huge thing of, you know, socialize your dog and puppy puppies, puppy parties, so that the tongue twister, um, um, uh, very much prevalent within the UK. And I think, um, definitely, I think I'd say I'd be confident enough to say that's happened globally as well. Certainly other countries that, um, I've traveled to, there's the same pattern that occurred. So when people started to socialize them, they did it with best, socialize their dogs. They did it with best intentions, but probably not a lot of knowledge about dog behavior, dog body language, you know, um, reading, um, calming signals and reading, you know, the information the dog was giving us and how to strategically socialize our dogs in a way that created, um, the end goal, which for me as an individual dog owner is I want a well-adjusted family pet. I want a dog, a really balanced dog with good social skills that can, um, navigate through

life, keeping itself and others safe. And that's really, really crucial. Now, the thing to say about my own specific dogs is I don't just have, um, sports bred dogs from breeders bought to do a job. I have, you know, rescue dogs and rehomed dogs. I have the weird and wonderful. And I, and I do that because not only am I a dog lover, but because I like dogs full stop. I don't just like border collies or malinois. I have dogs because I primarily, um, I, um, love all dogs and I'm, uh, you know, a dog, um, they are my passion and therefore, um, they, uh, it gives you a different spectrum of socializing different breeds and how, what's necessary for them. Um, so it, what then happened as an individual is I start to evaluate the way in which I socialize my dogs and how I, um, perceive socialization. And I was never an advocate of like getting my dog and letting it meet a hundred people or letting it, letting it meet, you know, infinite amount of dogs, et cetera. I, I, my end goal for my dogs is, as I say, to create a well-adjusted family pet with a balanced dog first and foremost, but also to create indifference. I actually want my dog to be indifferent to things. I want them to be indifferent to people. I want them to be indifferent to other dogs. I want them to be indifferent to objects and to noises and to things and to environments. I want them to be largely non-plus about, um, all those situations that they are eventually going to come across in their life. So I, because of the dogs that I had, I set about creating that within them. And, um, what I, I'd say I'm a naturally confident person. And I knew that with the dogs that I had initially, um, what the first dog I ever owned had, you know, major, um, um, behavioral issues, but they were largely trained behavioral issues. There were things that we caused because of our lack of experience, but, and initially she had some fearful behavior, but I have to say she largely like that all dissipated over time. And I, I, it was an instinctive thing that I did initially where I never really responded when she showed any extreme reaction to things, whether it be fear or excitement, I was very neutral to the whole thing. And it was something that I started to realize would be a technique that I could, um, employ with my, my other dogs, my subsequent dogs and advise people to do. Um, I think that we have a disconnect when it comes to dogs and, and we say, for example, children. So I, I constantly reference my own life experiences to make it more human to people, um, about, um, the, the, the, my opinion and therefore, and more relatable.

So the, the two big things in my life that has steered my, um, opinion about socialization was, um, being a police officer. And the other aspect is being a parent, two big life impacting, um, events in, in, uh, in my own personal journey. So the, um, being a parent, um, has really raised my awareness of the importance of effective socialization or proactive socialization. So I, my daughter is being socialized constantly. She's been exposed to experiences, but in a very controlled, structured manner to create the exact learning experience that we want for her. So the end goal is obviously to have, you know, a well-adjusted person. Hopefully that's what she grows up to be with, you know, with self-confidence. And as a woman, she has, um, she, she's confident in herself and she's aware of her, um, own personal being and she, um, and to think in a certain manner, um, about things like everything from consent to, um, how she engages with other people. But we are mindful of the way in which we, um, talk to her, how we engage with her, how we interact with her and how we socialize her. Um, so, and she goes to several, um, things in her little social, hectic social life. So she mixes with her peers at school and there's adults and supervised, um, supervision within that interaction. She goes to ballet. There's again, another adult supervised and the kids, there's a controlled number of people. She goes to, um, uh, swimming. So there's, that's where she's with myself or, um, with Lois. And we, we engage with her by the means of an instructor giving us information. So the events that she has in her day are very, very specific or in her week, I should that are very, very specific to create a experience for her. So the, the reason that we wanted her to do swimming was obviously not from a life-saving point of view, but because it was something that she, um, would not only help her long term, but to give her confidence of doing something that was slightly stressful initially, um, for her first personally. Um, but it was allowed her to, the, the way in which the class was structured was the information was broken down into layers. So each week they'd give us a piece of information and she was exposed to be truthful to little bits of things that she wasn't confident on and over time and strategic choices, um, and, and decisions on the part of the instructor and, and the, the way that it's formatted. She's now like uber confident. And I wrote a blog about, um, uh, you know, how her journey, the experience, the first time

I took her to, um, the swimming, how brilliantly laid out, it was like the absolute epitome of a great lesson and great teaching. So that was one thing that we wanted her to do. The other thing was something like ballet, for example, where she does, so we don't go in there with her. She does that with a level of independence. Um, and she's taking direction from an instructor about, and we wanted her to do something semi-creative and, um, something that encouraged her because she has a, she has an introvert aspect to her personality. She's just sensitive. Um, she's quite sensitive in certain things and she doesn't relish, um, being the center of attention or, uh, people looking at her and which, which her mom is a very similar personality trait. So recognizing that within my daughter, we've made the decision to say, right, we're going to expose her to something that's creative and it's going to encourage her to be a bit more flamboyant and a bit, but you know, something that she can do with a group of kids again, in a control setting. So what, the reason why I talk about those specific decisions is because those are the decisions I would have with my dogs. If I had a dog of a certain temperament and a certain ilk, I would be actively seeking out experiences and lessons for that dog to have. That's going to create the end goal. So to bring this back to my own dog. So my boxer, for example, I knew that that dog particularly of that breed could be predisposed to, um, aggression. And I don't mean that a boxer's have bad temperaments, not at all. And so certainly he doesn't, but they, that dogs of that ilk, they, they have that edge about them. And that's the only way I can describe it. An edge, which, um, which largely is, um, you know, the breed, they're a guarding breed. They're meant to be a little bit aloof, a little bit suspicious. And their body language can be very provocative when they engage with other dogs because they're very strong. They have, you know, a crumpled face and, you know, their stiff neck and their tail where he has a tail, which is very stiff and, you know, et cetera, et cetera. So as a proactive part of his socialization, I made sure I exposed him to lots of different breeds of different types. Um, small dogs, big dogs, hairy dogs, which I would do with all my dogs anyway. But I also made a point when he was younger to, um, socialize him with, with other male dogs. So he understood male, um, uh, for want of a better term. So he then didn't develop hopefully over time, um, really, really strong aggressive behavior.

And I'll talk about a specific thing, um, with him and, and the impact of testosterone and how that can play a part in socialization. But it's really important that we, we parallel how we, society is becoming much more, um, understanding of children and how to talk to them in a way that builds confidence and doesn't, you know, put, um, uh, what's the word I'm looking for? Doesn't put, um, stuff for what a better term on them. And we're, we're thinking about the way in which we talk to our children. We're talking about, you know, the, the old adage of, you know, kids should be seen and not heard. It's definitely not the case now, I think in modern society, which is great. And it's the same with dogs. We need to be moving. We need to be thinking about being proactive as opposed to, um, you know, letting them out the front door, so to speak, and, and hoping for the best. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. So it's about kind of having a plan, looking at the dog in front of you and kind of figuring out how to balance out their natural tendency. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And the, the, the thing I would say is the, the, one of the, um, the best reactions you could have is no reaction. Yeah. In, in the instance, I think Denise wrote a brilliant blog about, it will always be fine. It will always be fine. I know Susan Clothia, she references as well about, um, um, like remaining very neutral when the horse or the dog has an outburst or an adverse reaction and just very nonchalant about the whole thing. And that's something that I definitely subscribe to. I think that socialization is, is a very, very challenging, um, part of dog ownership and something that is almost a feat of training in itself. Um, no different to bringing up a child to have good social skills and manners and, and be, you know, self-confident and outgoing, et cetera, et cetera. But also balance between, um, you know, being polite, but, but not being, um, you know, likely to be subservient, et cetera, et cetera. All those, those nuances of, um, how we want people to behave. Well, certainly I would want my daughter to be, to be. Mm-hmm. So kind of taking that, I know you talked a little bit about, um, kind of your goal in there. Do you want to just kind of maybe recap that and like a couple of sentences just so that to kind of firm it up for folks or the goal, um, the way I'm understanding it is you're looking really for a neutral reaction, right? Is that what you're. Yeah, I'm, I'm looking, my end goal with my, all my dogs is, as I say, it's to create a well-adjusted family pet with, with a balanced temperament.

I also want them to show indifference to anything and everything within their life. Unless I specifically raise their awareness or create a, uh, uh, arousal attached to that item or thing or that event or that experience. I want the dog to be exact. Like I want my dog to respond to a person like it would a coffee table. Like it's a coffee table. Big deal. What's the, you know, what's the thing and, and just keep on moving as opposed to going, Oh, it's a person. I'm super excited. I'm super apprehensive. I'm super anxious. I'm super this. I want the dog to be like, Oh yeah, human beings, they exist in the world. I'm nonplussed about them. I don't, I'm not fearful of them. I'm not excited by them. I'm just very like, Oh yeah, I've seen one, seen them all. I like that kind of within that. So obviously there's a lot of tailoring happening there. Do you have like a general framework, things that you always do or things that you never do, or just kind of, you know, kind of scaffolding that you hang all the other pieces off of when you're approaching socialization? Yeah, definitely. So the things that I, I make a concerted effort to socialize my dogs. Again, I manufacture the situation with as many types of dogs that I can. For example, a hairy dog that has hair over its eyes, a dog with a squashed face. I can never pronounce, even though I have a box, I can never pronounce brachiofellic. A pointy dog, a black dog, a fast moving dog, because we absolutely know that every breed of dog has its own dialect and culture within it. So how a German shepherd would say hello to another German shepherd would be to, you know, rough house and shoulder barge and grab each other. That would be their, their, hello, how are you? If a German shepherd did that to a, um, a sheep dog, it would absolutely, the Sheltie would probably have an absolute breakdown. Certainly the ones in the UK, because they're not the most, you know, um, and they're not like your American Shelties. Most, a lot of them. Um, I'm probably going to get, you know, vilified for bad maddening. I won't say Sheltie. I'd just say a more demure breed of dog, shall we say. But nonetheless, so, um, the thing to, to, um, take on board is to make a concerted effort to mix your dog with lots of different, um, types of dogs. Now this is coming back to sports specific sports dog trainers are really, really lapsed on this part of the socialization in that we have a high access to border collies. So I'm going to mix my border collie puppy with lots of other border collies. Fantastic. That's great.

So unless you live your life permanently at a dog show, a dog trial, you are kind of scarfing because you're going to meet a boxer. You're going to meet a pug. You're going to meet a flat coat. You're going to meet a retriever. You're going to meet a bozoar. You're going to meet a whippet and so forth and so forth and so forth. But people don't make an effort to find or engineer the dog meeting that type of dog. And really what I do is they're not a case of kumbaya. I have a great run around with them. It's just let them interact. And I use a traffic light system. First, red light, no interaction. Dog observes from afar. And I observe the other dog's body language and I observe my dog's body language. And I take a little thermostat of where is the dog? I take a little temperature of both dogs' feelings in that moment in time. I then make a decision based on that initial assessment of do I let them have an interaction? And the interaction would be brief. So Amber, brief interaction, count of 10, call the dog back to me, reassess, check the temperature of the room again. And then I can allow or decide whether I want to let the dogs off the lead or have more interaction, et cetera, et cetera. So that strategic process allows the dog to have a neutral experience or at least ideally a positive experience. Or when I say positive, a positive does not have to mean they meet, they romp around, they become best buddies. A positive experience is he sees the boxer or my boxer sees the Sharpay. He acknowledges it. He airs sense. He looks back to me. He shrugs his shoulders and sort of, that's a brilliant experience for my dog to have. Positive experience doesn't have to be they romp around, they become besties. Yeah. If anything, in a certain dog, that's counterproductive because you build in arousal paired with other dogs. Yeah. They see other dogs. They get super excited. When you rock up at a dog show, you're now not only creating arousal because of the sport, but you're creating an arousal because of the other dogs. And then you're getting into a whole load of drama. Yeah. Those dogs who bark in lunch just as much from frustrated desire to greet. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So kind of from that framework, then how do you, I know you kind of talked us through the example with your daughter earlier, but when you're looking at a dog specifically, how are you going to tailor and adapt things to really make sure that kind of what you're planning out is really about training the dog in front of you? Absolutely. So the thing to say about dog training and the more dogs you have, the more you learn

this is every single dog is an individual. And that sounds such a cliche in that it does really reiterate the manner that mantras train the dog in front of you. And it's really important to take the dog as an individual when you're approaching socialization. So I don't have a set protocol that not all my dogs are going to meet 101 dogs, et cetera, and have a great time with them. Some dogs that might be relevant. So for example, I have a foster dog at the moment with me, a Labrador. And she was a dog that trained with me in one of my public classes. And unfortunately, the owner's circumstances have meant that the dog is going to be rehomed. And she's actually going to, hopefully, fingers crossed, she's going to be, they're going to have their first introduction this week with one of my students, another student. But the dog has really, really strong fear reactions to other dogs. So she's, to the point of where she's a Labrador, and you can imagine Labradors are absolute gannets, she will not take food when she sees another dog that she doesn't know. So, and you can, you imagine for a breed like that, and that type of dog, how extreme and how apprehensive she is in that situation. So with her, I'm really working on confidence around other dogs. And, but the ironic thing is with her, she's actually great. She, she's because I've actually had her before at my home for training when she was a lot younger. She knows all my dogs and she's amongst other dogs. She's absolutely great. If there's one solitary dog, it turns up. Now there is a possibility that, that she had an untoward experience when she was younger. And it wasn't that she got attacked or anything. It could just simply be that when she was having, do her season or hormonal, she got some dogs just invade her personal space really intrusively. And that has left a very impressionable mark on her, on her being. So to give you an example of the impact it has on hers, not only did she instantly shut down, she won't take food or she didn't take food. We've, we've started to build confidence around that. She also, if another dog, if one of my other dogs wander around or brush her, she'll absolutely scream, like scream like they've attacked her. So, and really, really strong, really strong reaction, which again, when I had her as a puppy, she didn't show that, that reaction. So I expect that what's happened is her owner, she's not had any attacks, which is what it looks like. I simply think that she's quite sensitive. She's got a sensitive streak. And I think what's happened is dogs have just invaded her personal space and being too intrusive

with her, which has made her fearful, which has made a dog that's probably a little bit hyper sensitive anyway, and brought that out. Now, again, hindsight is a wonderful thing with a dog like that. I would be much more, again, look at the dog. You don't have to have interaction. And especially when the hormonal stage kicks in, I very much retract my dogs from socialization because of that reason. So for example, another one of my dogs, Hottie, she is now 10 months and she's coming up 10 months. So she hasn't had a season. So imminently, and I'll start to look for little telltale signs that things like, you know, spook barking, things like, you know, a little bit of resource guarding, things like, you know, adolescence kicks in. All those things allude to her hormones changing and her possibly having a season. When that happens, and I see that I won't let her meet any entire male dogs that she doesn't, she hasn't met before, because I don't want a male dog to be really overboard and over sexualized with her, which could potentially worry her, concern her and cause a long term problem. Yeah. Does that make sense? Mm hmm. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So you mentioned that, you know, she was the type of dog who maybe had a hypersensitive streak. And I know in your book, you talk a little bit about some of your other dogs, and one of them had a tendency to chase that you thought was going to be really pronounced and some of those things. So how do you kind of evaluate that? How do you determine this dog has this quality? So that's the thing I want to kind of set up against. Some dogs, it's, you know, you can tell by genetics. So a lot of my dogs are from breeders, and I know they're genetic. So I'm going to make, I'm going to, that's a, I've got a heads up. So my Malinois, I know, is more than likely to have a predisposition to behavior that could be reactive, I'm going to say. So for example, she's probably going to be motion sensitive. She's probably going to be possibly lead reactive. I'm not careful. She'll have a low threshold to frustration, meaning she'll get frustrated very, very quickly. So if that's another dog or a person, she in particular is by far the most social, like people obsessed dog I've ever owned. And I was very much, that was something that I didn't expect with a Malinois. I thought she'd be, you know, my other two were, they were very good with people, but they were largely indifferent. They were quite aloof, but they were very solid. The temperaments were impeccable, but they just really weren't really people dogs, really. They couldn't really be other than me.

But that was something that I wasn't expecting with her. Her level of obsession with people. Now, as I discussed, that combined with her breed characteristics of grabbing things with her mouth, that was something that I really had to put on a priority list. And a massive part of her training to work through her people obsession was having her around people and people told implicitly, don't talk to her, don't engage with her, don't look at her, et cetera. And her learning to basically ignore them. And I didn't do a lot of feeding or alternative behaviors. I basically bought her. I just stood around, had the people at a distance. There were situations where I'd reward her for focusing. So I'd engage with her and I'd work on focus exercises. But I also want her to just go through life and just see people and actually find them really like, oh, whatever. So I did a lot of where we just sit and be with a person on a chair, which is where social distancing that when she was younger would have been fantastic. I mean, a two meter room would have been brilliant for her. But I'd have people two or three meters away and they would just be doing their own thing and I'd have her on a lead and set them on a bed and she would just be ignoring them. And that would be the game. That would be the exercise that we do. Or walking adjacent to a person. No dog, just a person. And I must do parallel walking next to people. So she learned just to essentially not receive reinforcements from them. So I did a lot of work on her recall, a lot of work on focus. And now it's, you know, she's excellent. She's still very, very social. And a big thing with her was not to have them reinforced as she jumped up to them. So it was always feet on the floor with her specifically. So things like that helped her become a, or she's becoming a really, really, really lovely dog. Because I knew that, so specifically not only from a domestic point of view, would it be problematic to have a dog that's that aroused by people? Also for the sport that I want to do with her. So I want to do IGP with this dog. And just the prospect of a person, which is going to spike her arousal, and a biting object that's going to spike. Those two things with that particular dog, I mean, literally, eyes on stalks, no thinking, no brain, nothing. And you go, for a positive trainer, that's like a level of arousal that I cannot, she cannot function in. And where even, she's so aroused. And then, you know, if you were to correct her, she's against conflict, because she's got a sensitivity about her. It would just be an absolute, you know, drama.

So I broke it down into pieces where I worked on what I would call anti-people training. And then I did, you know, lots of work on biting and control around the biting. I do a lot of anti-sleeve training where I take the sleeve out for a walk with the dogs, and I just get them to ignore it. All that sort of stuff. And then when I first ever bite work session, I did people with food. So I didn't bring the bite sleeve into it. All those layers were thought out because I knew what her nemesis is, which is people. So with her, her primary socialization objective was anti-people. I've had dogs that were very, very dog-obsessed. So, and again, same principle. I trained them to be indifferent to dogs. Genetics can give you an indication of what you're going to get. So you know a border collie is going to probably want to chase. You know that a man was probably going to want to bite things or have things in their mouth. You know that a terrier is probably going to want to hunt and maybe reactive because of the instinctive desire to, you know, bite things that I like, come back at them, et cetera. You know, breed characteristics can give you an inkling of what you're going to get. But the big thing is sometimes dogs will throw you a curveball. You've got, you know, they won't do the, like, for example, I wasn't expecting a jungle her to be people-obsessed. That's not generally a malinois thing. They're quite, you know, they could be apprehensive of people, a lot of them, but all indifferent or aloof. Those were things I was expecting, not a case of I love people, like a golden tree of a love people, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of thinking about that, like, I don't know, is there a process you're going through constantly as you're training where you're checking for stuff like that? So you obviously went in with the assumption that she was going to use her mouth a lot and she was going to be a certain type of dog. And then she wound up loving people. Like, how do you catch that early enough on that you're not hurting your own purposes, right? So with her, it was really, really prominent from literally the second she came in the house. So I, she was eight weeks old. I brought her in the house. She saw Niamh. She literally launched herself on Niamh, grabbed Niamh's clothing and just, like, started tugging. And it was, like, eight weeks old. So, and I was like, oh, okay. So I'm, and Niamh's, you know, I will say Niamh's very, very, very, very dog savvy, obviously, as you can imagine. But she's got perfect skills for a kid. She just was, like, neutral, didn't react, didn't get excited.

And I just went and peeled the puppy off because I didn't expect that strong a reaction from her. I knew that she would be excited. But literally, as she walked in the house, she saw a human and just went, bam. She just, like, I got obsessed. Now, if I show the extreme contrast, I, when I brought Hottie in, who's only a couple of months younger than her, Hottie went up to Niamh. She literally sat next to Niamh, like, she, like an old dog that, and just sat perfectly, sat, waited patiently for her to not, to interact with her. And that was it. And then she just curled up and lied with her. And that was Hottie's interaction with her. Which, again, I was expecting Hottie to be a bit more because Hottie's mother's very, very gregarious and loves people. So I was expecting more of that. But actually, Hottie was like, oh, okay, human. Yeah, great, fine. I'll sit next to you. But I was very, like, largely indifferent. With those two dogs, it was very prominent what they were going to do. So sometimes you can't always see until you put the dog in a situation where, you know, you expose them to people and expose them to dogs. Again, if I'm talking about proactive socialization, I always assume my dog is going to be concerned about the situation. I assume my puppy is going to be concerned about people. I assume my dog is going to be concerned about dogs. So therefore, I am proactive about the way in which I expose them to them. So it's very controlled. It's very much like nobody talks to the puppy. Nobody touches the puppy. If the puppy wants to come up to you, great. Some puppies, you absolutely go, this puppy is going to be fine. My gut instinct says this puppy is going to be fine. And everything about its being says the dog is going to be social. But I always act as if the dog is not. I act as if the dog is going to be worried. And I say to people, like, don't talk to the dog unless it comes up to you, blah, blah, blah. Same with dogs. I always assume my puppy is going to be worried about the other dog. And I assume the dog is going to be worried about my puppy. So therefore, I take proactive steps of chaperoning the first interaction, making the other dog, show the other dogs. I know the other dog. And even then, I make that hidden assumption, well, he might not like this particular puppy. So I would have the puppy on the lead. I'd have a little bit of distance. I'd assess the puppy. I'd do it in a controlled manner, et cetera, et cetera. So that I'm not then taking an unplanned risk. Because even with the best, things could still go wrong.

You could have a puppy that, you know, a dog that just something untoward happens. But if you can be proactive and err on the side of caution, you should hopefully protect from anything going wrong. Now, the thing to say about being cautious, caution shouldn't be based from anxiety. It should be from awareness. So when I do this with a puppy, I'm not anxious about what's going to happen. I'm just aware. I'm aware of the other dog. I'm respectful of the dog's distance. I take time. I don't force the process and so forth and so forth. So that isn't based from anxiety. And that's the thing to clarify with people. I think sometimes people get anxious about that experience. And that can create a problem long term. I'm not anxious. I'm just aware. I'm aware of the situation. I'm aware of the environment. I'm aware that my other dog can move away if it wants to. I'm aware of the dog turning away and giving, you know, avoidance behavior or giving avoidance information or displacement or whatever the case may be. I'm constantly checking in with both dogs. And that's something that hopefully will cause the experience to go in the way that's beneficial. So I've seen some conversations lately that have kind of given me some pause, kind of focused specifically on when to train something versus just kind of managing it, right? So the dog isn't even exposed to whatever the antecedent is that causes the undesired behavior. Just kind of giving the dog a chance to mature a bit. Can you talk a little bit about what kind of behaviors or how you decide when a behavior is something you should work on, when it's something you should just kind of manage, and when it's something you just let the dog grow out of it? Yeah. Okay. So the basic, the short of that, all those three things are optioned. They're viable. There's things that you're going to have to absolutely train against or train your dog through. There's things that you're going to absolutely manage, and there's things that you're going to just totally ignore because they'll dissipate. Now, what dictates that for me is the effect it has on society and other people. And also, I look at me, I look at the dog, and I look at society. And all those, I think Denise wrote a really great blog or Facebook post about everybody has a say in this process. So the deciding factors would be, you know, is that appropriate for the dog? Is it appropriate for me? Is it appropriate for society? And all of those are valid. Things that I would manage, and management is, as I said, it's, I strongly, I tell people on a regular basis, just manage the dog's behavior.

Because sometimes the ends doesn't justify the means. If I have a dog, for example, a noise sensitivity is a great one to discuss on this, yeah? If I have a dog that doesn't like a particular, very specific sound, and I can avoid or manage that dog's experience, I'm going to, or ignore it. And it's something like, for example, I'm going to give you a really great example. So my little dog, Sugar, doesn't like the frying pan. So when the frying pan goes on, she always leaves the room, yeah? And I could easily untrain that. I could, you know, do some counter conditioning or desensitization. But in truth, I'm not going to even bother. And I'm not going to bother because it's not something that makes the dog so grossly unhappy that it affects her in general. It isn't making her unsafe or she's not in harm's way. She's not affecting anybody else if she takes herself off to another room. And all that happens when she might, if she's in the room and she can't get away, she'll just shake for a second. I open another door. I let her go in the bedroom. She takes herself in there. Happy days. Everybody's happy. It's not something that I'm not going to, because essentially if I was a trainer, I'd have to, to a degree, expose her to that thing that causes her concern. Why would I do that for when she's, the dog has a great option for keeping herself out of the frying pan's way? I can carry, you know, using the frying pan or the grill, even if it's the grill now or the fan goes on above our cooker. She gets antsy about it because she's now paired that with the frying pan. So that would be an example of when I just go, the ends doesn't justify the means. Yeah, the dog is, yes, she has a little bit of a meltdown over it, a minimal run. She's not really happy, but she takes herself off from each other room, you know, and she's happy. She'll call her back. You give her a treat. She'll go off. She'll take a treat. She'll scuttle back off again. No problem. That's one example now. But if the behavior that she chose was so problematic, so let's just say that she, the frying pan came on and she wanted to redirect and bite out of fear other people in the house. So that would be something I'd have to do or deal with because now the problem is becoming unsafe and it's becoming dangerous for her or for somebody else or coming back to the dog, me and society. So I would have to do something about that. Now I can manage it. I could put the dog in a crate. I could never use the frying pan again. That's another option. But I can also train against it.

So I could do some work or teaching an incompatible behavior, go to your bed, et cetera, et cetera. There is many options that are appropriate, but the severity of her behavior would dictate the choice. And as I say, all those three things are interchangeable. Talking specifically about socialization, when this will be absolutely come to the fore is during adolescence and when your dog is going through a hormonal stage. Because often a lot of the stuff that dogs do in their adolescence will come and it will go. Yeah. Your dog's little strange reaction to spooking, barking will come and it will go. And you making an issue of it can make it 10 times worse. So, again, just to give you another little bit of an anecdote about that. So all of my female dogs, all my female border collies I own now are all related to one particular dog. They're all her daughters. And when she had her first season, about three months before her first season, she's got a really, really excellent temperament. Like really gregarious, you know, very, very social, very outgoing, loves everything, loves everyone. Like trained to be indifferent. But she's really, really, really bomb-proof little dog. But three months before her season, as I say, she spook barked. And she spook barked on a walk that we went every single day of her life. And there's two, there's a gap in between, there's some trees along there as you go in the entrance. And there's a large gap waking up in the hills. And she spook barked in this gap. There was nothing there. There was nobody there. There was nothing that I could see. She might have seen a leaf drop wherever. She spook barked. Stopped, spook barked at this thing. And all my dogs just basically ignored her. I made a little note to self. Oh, that's a bit strange for her. Didn't react. Moved on. Three months, you could have put a calendar, a pin in the calendar, three months to the day she came in season. All of her daughters exhibit the same trait. They will randomly spook bark. And within three months, three to four months, they'll come in season. So that's something that I just wouldn't bother trading against. I would just make a little note to self. Because, again, it's one of those things that will come and it will go. And once they've had their season, their hormones have settled down, that's it. They don't. Nothing comes of it. That's a really, really common thing for dogs to show fear-based behavior. Or male dogs often get in a little scuffle. And that's a classic point of where lead reactivity or reactive behavior or dog aggression is trained and caused.

When dogs enter adolescence, the dog gets into a little scuffle, as dogs often do. It's normally a nothing incidence where there's lots of teeth clattering and hair flying. But actually, nothing comes of it. But what happens within the relationship with the dog, the person has a level of trauma. They see their dog being attacked or they see their dog attacking another dog. And then they get verbal abuse from the owner and so forth and so forth. Because now PTSD sets in. Next time they see a dog that looks similar, they tense up the lead. Next thing you know, you've got lead reactivity. So it's very, very common in those instances to train things in that can last a dog's lifetime. So in regards to things like aggression, fear, it's not great. We don't want our dogs to be fearful. We don't want our dogs to be aggressive. We don't want our dogs to snap at another dog. Of course we don't. But we also have to, again, coming back to our disconnect between dogs and the relationship. That's what dogs do. Yeah, that's dogs do that. It's normal. Most dogs do it and then they don't do it. And they may never do it again. Lots of dogs. And sometimes do it when dogs do it, when it's absolutely appropriate. And sometimes dogs do it when it's absolutely not appropriate. All the above is going to happen. Yeah. But the thing to say is, if you hang on to that stuff, you're going to put anxiety on that dog and you're going to create issues that are going to potentially last a lifetime. So it's really important that you enter adolescence with the right headspace, knowing that it's going to be some troubled waters. So it's really important to stick with your game plan, not expose the dog to trigger situations, i.e., for example, my male adolescent dog doesn't meet other male adolescents that he doesn't know. My female dog doesn't meet male dogs. So I would be mindful of who she mixed with or the experiences she has when she becomes hormonal. So, for example, with my female dogs, when they start to get a bit hormonal, I don't take them to environments where it could be too noisy or chaotic. Because very quickly they can develop noise sensitivity or problem because they're sensitive anyway. They're sensitive to sound, et cetera, because of their hormones. If they go into, say, an indoor riding school that they've never been before, they hear a bang, you could have a problem very, very quickly. Yeah, so it's just being a little bit vigilant about these things and making sure that you're, again, being proactive about it. Yeah.

I know that, you know, from the book that you kind of approach socialization as a lifelong process. So can you just talk about how your approach changes as the dog matures, if it does? I mean, we talked a bunch about kind of adolescence and stuff like that. So I'd love to. Yeah. Yeah. So socialization, like the primary point of socialization should be within, you know, naught to, say, three years old when you put all your hard work in. And that's when you're going to probably see the ups and downs. You're going to get your, you know, you're going to pull your hair out and have to get a glass of wine and, you know, drown your sorrows and so forth and so forth. But after that point, it should get easier. Yeah, it should. But you also have to be mindful that with some dogs and some behavioral traits, you want to keep vigilant about it. So, for example, again, bringing it back to my own dogs, my Boxer Punch, when he was in adolescence, he got really, really challenging. And he had some real extreme dog aggression issues and ones I had to really, really, really work through. And then he had a hormone spike and I had problems with him and my other dog. And, you know, there was a whole series. I talk about this in Pathway to Positivity. But now he's excellent with other dogs. But I don't take it for granted that he is what he is. And I need to be respectful of his, who he is. And I also need to intermittently reinforce him when he doesn't show inappropriate behavior towards another dog. So, you know, whereas my other dogs, who my colleagues, definitely, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted if they showed a reaction to another dog full stop. In most situations, I'd be absolutely flabbergasted. But Punch, if he is a gentleman around another dog, I always acknowledge it. Good boy. Give him some reinforcement in some way, shape or form. So, again, behavior needs to be reinforced to be maintained or is more likely to be rehearsed or repeated. And that's something that should be applicable to socialization. So, and the other aspect is the reinforcement doesn't actually, or reinforcement doesn't have to necessarily be food and treats or food and toys, etc. It could be for your apprehensive dog that when they show good social skills and they show a level of confidence, the other dog disappears or you move away as a reinforcer, etc. So, think about what reinforcement is to that particular dog. So, you know, with Punch specifically, if he behaves really, really great and he's going to show, my role is I just move him from that situation.

So he, because he doesn't want to be, his reinforcement would be I move forward away or again, I could feed him or etc, etc. So it's really, really important that you know what the dog would find reinforcing in that situation. For the apprehensive dog, it's move away from the other dog. It's also being vigilant with, especially with dogs that have had a negative experience that you are constantly monitoring throughout their whole life that you're checking in. Because good training, good socialization, remedial socialization, I should say, will put papers, will put bubble wrap over cracks. But the crack will always be there to a degree. And unless you keep on rechecking the bubble wrap to make sure that it's solid and intermittently, you know, patching up and doing a little bit of MOT on it, it could quite easily reemerge if you're not cautious. Yeah. So again, my German Spitz, for example, Sonic, when I first got him, I got him as a rehome dog. He was very, very nervous, very, very nervous people and dogs and things. And again, I approached his socialization as I do with all my dogs. And now he's a super gregarious, you know, really outgoing, you know, you wouldn't notice at all that he has apprehension issues or he's fearful. But I am also mindful that he doesn't always want to say hello to people. And the thing is, he attracts people's attention because he's, you know, he's cute and he's furry, etc. But sometimes he doesn't want to say hello to them. So if he lets me know within his being and they want to say hello to him and he doesn't look happy about it, I just go, no, you know, you can, I might say, oh, give him a tidbit or whatever. Or I just say, no, you know, he doesn't want to, he's busy or whatever the case may be. So I honor the fact that sometimes, although he's had, you'd never, ever notice, I defy anybody to say the dog had an apprehension issue or nervous, was nervous around people. But it's because I, I put, he puts his trust in me that I keep him safe as well. And that's another important facet of socialization. So to open a whole other can of worms, you just kind of teased it there at the end. But, you know, what role does relationship play in socialization? And how does, you know, having a good relationship with your dog and proactively socializing them, how do those things kind of work together? Can be mutually beneficial? To me, the two things are the same. So effective, proactive socialization is a series of events that lead to the dog that you want to own.

An outgoing, confident, you know, well-adjusted family pet, et cetera, with a balanced disposition and outlook. That rely, that is dependent on you as an owner, caregiver, guardian, exposing the dog to situations that are positive. And not that, as I said, just to reiterate, that doesn't mean follicking along grass, being best buddies. That means, oh, I didn't get approached by another dog. Oh, the dog didn't come up to my personal space. Oh, the dog didn't bite me. Oh, the dog, you know, looked away from me. That's all great experiences. So the more I can rehearse that with my dog where it has positive experiences, the more they're going to trust in me. And I suppose you could say that you could argue that's anthropomorphizing dog behavior, but they're going to be conditioned that they are safe with me. They are being conditioned that they have positive experiences with me, which is going to enhance our relationship. And they also are going to be learning that I'm in control of the environment. So I can make that dog disappear. I can make that dog move further away from you. I can make that dog do a down. I can make that dog, I can control that person not touching you and so forth and so forth. So what then happens is you create so much confidence in the experiences the dog has with you specifically that that very much affirms that trust slash, you know, all that gushy stuff that we talk about with dog training and dog ownership. Looking at all of this, right, like there's a lot of here's what you should do type stuff in there. And I think there's a lot of really awesome advice in there. On the flip side of that, I think a lot of the times when we talk about this stuff, people can end up feeling guilty, right? They feel like they didn't do it right or they failed their dog or, you know, because their dog is showing reactivity or their dog is showing fear. You know, it's something they did wrong. Can you share your thoughts on that? Yeah, absolutely. The thing to say about dog ownership is it's not straightforward. It's not a linear state of progression. It is ups and downs. And I can tell you now I've had the dogs, every single dog I own. I have had a moment where I've gone, oh, my God, what have I done with this dog? And it might be from a training point of view. It might be from an ownership point of view. Oh, God, I like it again. Punch is a great dog to talk about with this. I genuinely at one point was really like I'd commissioned myself to I'm going to train this dog positively, whatever that is, whatever. Let's not even get into that discussion.

But I was committed to training him under the banner of reinforcement based dog training. And when he was a raging hormonal boxer that wanted to get into fistfights with everything with four legs, I was really challenged as to what I was going to do with him because I was really conflicted. And I'd you know, there was no nobody. It was just my stuff I put on my shoulders that I needed to do it this way. And I was committed to it. So that was stuff I felt. And in truth, I discuss it very openly. You know, I suppose you could say I used to say punisher with him. I raised my voice and made a lot of noise and stomped my feet. And I was really conflicted. I felt very guilty about that because I was like, oh, I failed, et cetera. You know, I had committed to this living, this having this relationship where it was, you know, all positive, et cetera. And I felt an immense amount of guilt. But you learn to take the lesson from the experience. And even your dogs that are reactive, there is a lesson to be gleaned from that in that the dog. And I still don't remember this is cliche and corny, but you get the dog that you need, not necessarily the one that you want. And the amount of students that I've had, that I've had, invert commas, problem dogs that have come to me and they've opened up a whole new world of dog training, FBSA, and all the great things out there because of the problem dog. So, and often, if they had a nice, sweet, amenable dog, they would never have found this fantastic world that we, you know, move in. So, the thing about feeling guilty is guilty, the guilt isn't going to serve you. You can look at it as I made a mistake. What can I learn from that mistake? How do I move forward from that mistake or that error? And also reframe that in your mind. It wasn't a mistake. It was a learning experience. You know, I've learned, had learning experience with every single dog I've ever owned in sports and domestically. Things that I could do better and the life lesson is to do better with each subsequent dog. You often find, and this isn't, and I hope this doesn't come along, come across as judgmental, but often you'll find with behavioral stuff, it will be definitely our stuff. It will absolutely be our stuff that we inadvertently, unintentionally put on our dogs. Because that's the very dynamic of what a human slash canine relationship is. That's exactly what it's supposed to be. We are meant to be intertwined with them.

That's why it all happened a gazillion years ago when the one random wolf turned up and, you know, scavenged around and now fast-tracked to a pug with a, you know, a tutu on, you know, and sunglasses. That's what, that's why it worked. That's why we don't have these issues with cats in the same way, et cetera. You know, cats barely give you the time of day, you know, bless them. But the contrast is, so don't feel guilty about it because it's meant, that's exactly how it's meant to happen. We are meant to have this deep-rooted emotional connection with these animals. And for me, that's why I do it because I'm working to create that with each dog. The trade-off is, is that sometimes they're so in tune with me that sometimes some of my stuff's going to come out on their shoulders. But you know what, the alternative with is I'd have a detached, non-connected, or no connection with the animal. And that for me wouldn't be what I would want from it. So the thing to say about, again, I suppose you're reframing it is that we want our dogs to be connected with us on that deep level. That means the trade-off is that they are going to feel and appreciate our emotional changes and when we're anxious. Of course they are. But the thing to say is that often it's a reflection of who we are and what we are. And there's something to be said before. Take it as an opportunity to go, do you know what? To help my dog, I need to help myself. Yeah, and in order to build, if I can build my dog's confidence up, I'm going to build my confidence up. And I mean, again, it would save the conversation for another day. When I've worked very closely with people that have had dogs that have had really, really, really big behavioral problems, when you strip it back, there's actually some really, really deep personal stuff that is within that conversation and the dynamic of the issue. And actually, by helping the dog, they open this door to helping themselves. And some of this stuff goes way, way, way back, which to me is the blessing and the curse of why we own dogs. So for those people that feel that they have, you know, failed the dog, done badly, and are listening to this podcast, you are here for that very reason. You are, the dog brought you to this moment. And hear the words that I'm saying and take those words and realize that it's happening exactly how it's meant to. Yeah, and don't beat yourself up about it because that doesn't serve you. But take the lesson. How can I help this dog gain confidence? How can I help this dog gain better social skills? Who can I reference?

Who are my mentors to help me through that? Again, you know, FDSA is getting bigger and bigger. We now have a pet entity to it. We have the sports entity to it. So there's so many experts in their chosen field from, you know, dog aggression to resource guarding to recall to prancy healing to fly ball. We have every single, you know, type of dog trainer available. And you have stumbled along this podcast for that very reason, because of the dog that you feel guilty about. So don't feel guilty. Feel grateful. I like that. Last question. Kind of the one I tend to end on with everybody these days, which is what is something that you have learned or something that you've been reminded of recently when it comes to training? Is that very much train the dog in front of you? And I'm very much in the process of that at the moment. So just to give people an insight, I have two puppies out of the same litter. And it was unintentional. I didn't mean to keep one. One came back from a home. I homed him and he came back. He didn't get on with the owner. The owner didn't get on with him. And I also have jungle my man. So I have three young dogs that are younger than 18 months old. And they are absolutely, you could not get three more different characters if you tried. And it reminds me every time I train one of them, it reminds me train the dog in front of you. Because if I try to ask something of one that the other can do or can't do or vice versa, inevitably I fail and they have a, I'm going to say, a bad session. It isn't a bad session. It's a reminder to say, train the dog in front of you. And every time, as I say, I pick one of them up, it affirms me. Even siblings, like the two siblings, one's male, one's female. They're very, very different personalities in so many ways. And yet Hottie, who I've had since the day, you know, since she was born, and she's very much like very into me and very much my dog. But with her work, we have some things that we need to really work on and be stronger. Yet her brother, who was one of the reasons that he was rehomed is because the owner couldn't get a connection with him. We and him are developing a relationship, but yet his working ability is absolutely phenomenal. But for me, I want both. I have a great domestic relationship with Hottie. She's absolutely, I adore her. But her work relationship, our working relationship needs more developing. With Reset, my working relationship is absolutely fantastic. But our domestic relationship is the one that we need to work on to get a real connection. And there's little moments where I get it with him.

Like on the walk tonight, actually, he was very independent. He was, one of the feedback that he was described was very independent and didn't need the owner. And he's now looking to me and connecting with me, which is so reinforcing. And Hottie, who is very much my dog. Again, funnily enough, I had a great session with her today where she really engaged with me and was really playing brilliantly. And really, she had great engagement. She was pushing me to interact with her. So both of them had it. But it's because I had this conversation with myself earlier in the week where I was actually last night with a friend of mine. And we were discussing both the dogs. And we were having the training the dog in front of you conversation. And I went out today totally not planned spontaneously. And it really affirmed to me. Training the dog in front of you. Yeah. I like that. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming back on the podcast, Kamal. That's okay. My pleasure. Lovely to talk to you as always, Melissa. Thank you very much for having me. And I wish you all the best. Thank you. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.