Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 39: Markus Neutz

is okay I mean on the one side it's you know it's out of this fight between the the DMC the John M club and and the other people and so they found all they get in this club from Helmut RIS now and then you know then they've start with the T it is very old you know it's tet is a very old FCI program it's nothing new it was just not very common in Germany it was always common in Austria Switzerland CCH Republic yeah and yeah last year you know me and Maria we we were there and we showed our docks it was a super nice competition nice Stadium you know the flavor was almost like like world championship for sure right right yeah and and there was people and and it was very festive like that's for sure yes but all also I think also this year you know there are so you know there's no qualification right so there are also dogs in a level you really don't want to watch all the time or whatever so it's good you know people can go there have they have all the nice atmosphere but for me still more worthful is the the world championships at different world championships yeah I feel exactly the same I think world championship is it's the ultimate accomplishment and can nothing can nothing can replace it and on the on the golden League idea uh yes there is the anybody can enter I guess depending how how soon you enter and so the I guess the good side is if you're are not experience and you you don't have this super score and super dog you still get the opportunity to mingle and compete with some high high level competitors which is very inspiring to a lot of people yes for sure for sure I mean people loved it you know the handlers loved it and you know that's that's for sure and the golden League system I don't know right now for me it's a problem but you know I talk to Matias about this already last year you know so now the first one is in the East part of Germany and the two other ones are all in Eastern Europe you know all the golden League competition so the one is in Czech Republic the other one is in Poland and so you know it's not worthful like for a guy from Italy he will not drive two or three times all across Europe to compete so if but then who knows there are some crazy dog people right crazy I think if you want to make or implement the golden League system it should be more over Europe yes like there should be one in Italy maybe one in France maybe one in Austria you know so there it's and and then we will see if this happens I know right now that people from Italy some of my friends from Italy they think about organize uh that's it golden League that's it in Italy but yeah it's not so easy because on the one side we have you

know the entry in Italy and and then on the other side they have the T it it's we will see yeah yeah and but I I know what you mean when when you said like you the the huge gap or difference between the quality of performances in them you know CU you will have you will have some high high level and then you have a lot of people again that um you know they they clearly are are very much a big distance in in their abilities as a trainer and understanding and and it's really like this it's a interesting one I don't like the good side again it's yes if you're a a new person going into the sport and you get immediately opportunity to feel like you're part of this big thing and and you get the experience to go head to toe with with like the best of the best it's amazing experience um but then watching you know so many dogs and and you know those performances are like almost okay there there is not much for me to watch there right um You kind of know that's going to be like 262 score overall at the end um so I don't know what's the solution to that but my my thing is no matter how many more venues we figure it out like what to have but trying not to diminish the importance of a world championship because it I I don't think it will ever work anyway uh World Championship is going to be World Championship I think they also make mistake like fnbb Nobody's Perfect Right everybody's I mean there is this human factor that that we all are humans but with fnbb right now I feel that and this has been happening in the last few years opening the competition to the reserves and now you have a team of like all of a sudden not even two reserves there's like a nine people team I'm like okay what happened how how that gets to be worked out and do we need to get more entries or do we or is it better actually to keep the quality to where you also allow the judges to have a a a crisper brain and and you know I don't know what what do you think about the the reserves that the fnbb like can I mean it's a good thing for the reserve because it's super inspiring super motivating but at the same time there is some give and take right um yeah I you know I I think it's for me it's not the problem of the reserves in igp for me the fbb is a problem because you know I mean I like the world championships and I like the fbb the days you know it was just igp you know right and that's why I I don't know if you see my t-shirt what is it not really 1994 the first world

championship first world championship yeah yes I had to dig deep to find that shirt somewhere uh you know okay the problem for me with the fnbb or with the malinao world compared to the German sheards you know I mean even on the wsv world championship there are yeah you see dogs you know they are not good enough for a world championship you know right right right but the community in the German travels is much bigger and and and at the fmbb it's the same there are dogs they are they have not the quality of training they have not the quality of talk for the world championship from different countries you know exactly okay this happens but the interesting thing about is so you see all the different nations you know that's that's maybe the topic yeah but but what I think now like I'm not sure if it's true but now the people told me this was more than thousand dogs at the fmbb you know with all this different call all events yeah yeah yeah yes I don't know biking and this this year they had hering and rescue and rescue and this and for me this destroys you know this world championship it for me it's okay we can make you know World Championship igp we can make a world championship Mundo we can make a world championship obedience but all together is for me too much mhm yeah I think many many uh me me included I I am 100% on your side on this I think um I think it was cool to see when they first did it one time and maybe two times but by then you have to realize that we we as as much as we appreciate the breed and all the Dog Sports when we go to world championship we have a very fixated mind why we're there so just because some even even as a spectator to walk around one time to see two minutes of Mondo and two minutes of agility and then go back to watch whatever sport you are it is not worth it to to create so much pressure on a host country like we lately we've been kind of trashing countries um and in some maybe maybe rightfully so but at the same time the the as you said it's not this is not an easy thing to to have this huge event um and and most countries don't want to host it because they realize what's going on and they're not able and then you have country like Romania that okay we're going to do it but we don't know what we are doing and and now we have problem and there is really it's a simp this to me it's a very simple solution divided let's have go back to where we have the igp competition and there is a murine competition and anybody that is interested that seriously interested like myself I mean right now you know I train a dog for muring I train a dog for igp I personally would

love to have them split to where I can focus when I go to igp competition to focus on my igp competition and when I go to muring competition then it's all muring versus that conflict of where do I want to be what do I miss and and it doesn't make sense but there is something probably as far as income for fmbb which I highly doubt because when every time I listen to uh um what do you call it at the meeting um their financial status and everything every country and the organization they barely are able to break even and sometimes lose money so I don't think it's a good idea from from so many different angles and I hope they they change it um uh I mean starting from next year I hope they change it which I don't think they will I mean you know it's not a disrespectful meaning but for me it's a little bit like a fanboy you know World Championship you know so everybody I go to the fmbb and I take you know if I want to compete in a different sport level I can compete in this in this sport but you know like I am don't know much about but for me like you know bike hering and conic Ross this is not there is nothing in common with igp right you know I I can say Okay obedience okay we have obedience different style different part but obedience is also the part of Ip with monitoring you know there is a combination maybe agility but agility is still totally different for me but you know there is no combination between all these different sports and I don't know maybe the idea is like the Olympic Games for Malino so but yeah but it's for me it's too big you know yes it's too big in the total number I also think it's too big you know just in the igp numbers it's it's yeah yeah it's too big for the structures maybe too big for the decoys the same like FCI I'm I'm not sure but I guess this year there were 180 dogs in the FCI World Championship that's a lot for one Chou or who and and yeah I guess the there is this conflict right between what is the world championship for is it to see the top 50 of the world going at it or is it to have 150 to where others can say I was at the world championship and both have a good like like I can I can see it from both sides but I I personally would rather have 50 or 80 dogs at the compet the world championship to where when you don't make the 80 dogs you know that you did not make the world championship versus versus somebody making a world championship team then go back home and say hey I was on the world championship team I am a big shot I know what I'm doing and you clearly were just a participant you did

not yes it's it's some accomplishment but but you're definitely trying to make it blow it out of proportion to where now you're a just as good as the top 50 and and the difference is so big and it uh so I I lean more to having competitions not so much to okay well let's get more entries let's make it big event uh let's make money off of it no let's really stay focused on and allow the judges and the helpers to stay as you said like how do you judge 180 dogs like I mean I I cannot judge 30 like CS off to to any judge that could take that challenge yeah I don't know but I mean for sure there are ways you know to make it better I what I think you know like there are countries and they have probably five ip3 Malino in the whole country right so you know all five come to the world championship because that's the only one they have right and what I think what what what I would like you know like you have the different countries you can make okay how many Malino with igp titles are there or how many Malinois trial in this country and you can make a key out of this you said okay this is for example Germany we are still I think the the the country with the most igp trials in the world so okay you have so many trials okay you have this and this you know you have this and this members you have six members and Che Republic has six members and yes you know maybe you find the solution that there is a minimum for me it would be enough like minimum two or three from each country and you know the more you will you want to send the more Brides you need in your country or the more money you need in your country this would make it maybe a little bit smaller and then maybe a little bit more interesting also to watch at the end yes because it could it could be very intense when you know that this is like everybody I mean this is really the the the best of the best which World Championship should be like um all right I know I know I mean you and I talk and I know many people know who you are but before we hit a lot of the the Hot Topics give me just briefly for the people that are not familiar with with you like Jud juding and DMC and and accomplishments schn are just kind of in a in a nutshell so so people understand that there is a what you say there there is some value it's not a just a keyboard kind of Internet fiber I don't know what the value but you know that's yeah so yeah okay my I'm Marcus from Germany I'm in this sport since over 40 years now I had different breeds I won different Nationals with three different breeds so I won nationals with a Doan the marinir and now with a ch um yeah touching uh I start in the late 90s I start

Shing in the at this time in the German malar club yeah and re really fast I start touching big competition so but this I don't know if I was so good or it was just because we had so less stres at this time in the German M Club so the the first few years I think I just touched national championships and World Championships and maybe one or two Club trials at all so but I judged a lot I don't know yeah 15 national championships qualification FCI awdf and you've done buch exactly exactly been fbb world champion two times yeah and yeah then I I make a break in Ching made a break because out of political reasons I left the DMC the Maro club and now since two years I'm again an FCI recognized chch but in the German pin and Club yeah that's the no that that's that's exactly kind of what I wanted um and I mean way back in the time you were very much instrumental in the DMC as far as the judging I don't know I I thought you you were also the like the director of Judges at some point yeah but you know we were just four five or six so it's easy to be the director of sure sure sure yeah but I think in this time we were yeah instrumental influenc a lot you know like oh very much so yeah or even in Ching like you know some things like this time frame obedience this is in the rule book since whenever but nobody looked for it you know all preparation for the stand out I think this was all what we did in our club first you know and also I in Germany you know I don't know about other countries but in Germany I think we were in front you know as Tres and at this time people some people said we are crazy because we judged very strict you know like also in obedience when when this change start from you know full pressure full work to more more a little bit more positive we we start looking for this very early like you know is does the dog look look happy you know is there enough speed and and I think we had a lot of influence in in tring because we we were a small Club you know we were the smallest breeding Club in Germany but we had the most success you know like in the wdh awf compared FCI so we were a big number of good handlers we want to we no not we the that um the handlers from the T M Club they they won a lot of international titles National tit so there was a big influence of this no I mean everybody needed that and and actually as you said that was a an important moment in history of the evolution of the sport for no question about it um um but yeah there is always

the when you stay long enough and it's not just igp it's not just dog sport I think it's anything it's just humans you know but if you stay long enough some of your friends will become enemies some of your enemies will become friends and then it's going to go back and forth and somehow we you know I I understand I mean I'm the same way we don't need to be all friend it's not possible and there is no need but the all the little splitting I wish that there is some better way that we can say well these are some things that we all care about and instead of making a little other thing and another club and another something and keep dividing but I don't know if that's even possible as I said we we are all humans and and we all have very strong opinions I mean just because we have the same hobby you know we don't have to be friends you know that's that's normal no and and we don't need to train the same no and we don't need to like necessarily each other's performances for this we have rules yes we have the rules rules explain what we need rules right do you like do you feel like I I will tell you my take and it's I mean yes we're getting into deeper into talking fnbb specifically but but just overall judging and the rule book it seems to me that somehow a lot of the those judges colleges and and Gatherings fail to educate judges about what the what what the Tendencies are how how the the judging is evolving and and and what do we need to what do we as a what as as a whole igp Community we have decided or have we even decided what do we like so everybody can start to adjust their training you know you know right now all the last two three four years I think we really are at a very difficult point in igp rules judging whatever so let me maybe go back what I think you know it's like so as a Handler you know or as handlers we made a huge Evolution the last 30 years you know we I mean the same like you we just start you know full negative and then we put the positive stuff in and and so there is a huge evolution in doct training and as as handlers or as a Handler I can get get myself educated in so many many ways know I I go to seminars I watch videos I watch online trainings whatever you know and as a judge there is nothing you know you have your annual meeting you have the annual club meeting

the annual FCI meeting whatever but there is no really education right you know so nothing Chang and I think the hand loss overtook or passed the judges the last 30 years in knowledge in their specific partner you know so the handlers get better in training but the judges maybe not get better in judging that's what I think sometimes yeah and and but not all judges that's also the problem that right but but if if if I want to educate me as a judge you know I have to be you know open have to take all my private time and look okay what can I do so but what can I really do I can talk to other people I can think you know I can call somebody and we talk or we meet whatever but there is not really a system you know that's and and and right now I think I mean I I talk about both sides I'm a judge and I'm a Handler and I don't say I'm the best Handler but I don't also say I'm not the best judge right I think and but what I think now the judges you know we pass the we the handlers pass them and now they want to get back in the pole position and take the handlers down on their level again that's what I think right now you know when we talk about all this natural and stress whatever that's for me you know I really hate this discussions about this what is natural what is natural behavior nothing what we do in igp is natural natural tracking is not what we want natural walking is not healing no matter how the healing style looks and and also about this you know stress and this levels I cannot judge emotions I can judge Behavior that's what I see but not emotions you know like me I have my funny facei now but inside maybe I I would like to kill the next guy you know true so true I mean there are instances where you clearly can recognize pressure and stress right yes yeah in tracking for example in tracking you can see but not if a doct just tracks if there is a mistake then you see how the dog reacts on it you know but just because the tail is down that's not not not a proof of whatever forced draining or forced tracking or uncomfortable box no and there are so many different ways that the dog shows his his Expressions you know and and we cannot value them that's what I think but this is now the big discussion since a few years oh this is stress and this is stress and and I'm no psychologist but I know that we all need stress to work you know and then they make the this you know the the difference between this positive stress and negative stress and I think the rule book they at least in the German version they talk about stress but they don't talk about the positive stress MH because but now people use also they

don't care if it's positive or negative stress is stress but I said okay without positive stress we will never have an excellent in protection again that's what I think so right and and that's right now this big discussion I really don't like I really don't want to follow and and but there got is the rule book the rule book is not clear and the rule book even the new one is not logic yeah and and and so there is a lot of room of different interpretations from different things and that's I think we have to be careful that we don't you know that we don't go back in our level of doct training and whatever that's what I think MH yeah I mean it's a super difficult uh um to me you know because uh I mean that like like I I just pull it out here I'll put it on the screen let me see if I can do this how do I do this oh I know how um I wonder if this is no there is a man I why is it not letting me share this weird um just trying to share something with you um I just read it that's too stupid that I cannot figure it out but so like there is this thing a person who trains or does a dog sport right it's it so we are looking with a method of careful training with a goal in mind to achieve the best possible Harmony between himself and the dog and to convey to the dog what we want in such a way that the dog understands and and the harmonious relationship between men and and dog you know uh it always kind of talks about that cooperation and harmonious relationship and stuff and so there is quite a few different ways just as we say there's thousand roads to Rome and I think this is cool because everybody can have some I think this is how we grow like if we all do the same thing it's not it's not going to be even interesting um but there is a point where some of the training of igp becomes um I don't know what wor to even use I I wouldn't say fake but mechanical like without a purpose or something it's like behaviors are happening to and they look very beautiful but like the meaning of why the dog is doing it it's not there like if you take muring for example or any ring sport any Behavior the dog does there is a a purpose a meaning behind why we do this

and and yeah I think I know what you mean and that's what what I think what we have right now in protection Protection work is for me there is there is no meaning you know what the dogs are doing in obedi obedience is for me always a dress you know and and but in protection like for me one very big thing is the the the guarding phases you know right so 50% of the dogs I see they make guarding out of obedience yes and not out of what what I would like natural guarding Behavior you know so our working dogs are guarding guard dogs so they they guard usually they got a heart they got the cand they got and they show behavior and and and and in our protection that's a lot of technical tricks and and obedience now right and as I accept you know because if they fulfill the picture I I can accept but it's not what I like to see or in my dogs I would not like to see this and and that's what I think and and in but in obedience this technical part I don't care it's it's like like you know the healing pattern of Brit you know with this extreme I don't know what is it liano style yeah yeah with the front legs yeah I think um the guy the lady from California she she made the same the what's Sarah okay so you know I and if you see this now many people think oh this is I don't know this I don't know so it must be illegal illegal you know that's what I think and then and it's not illegal you know it's not illegal because I'm just too stupid to train it like this yes it's like when I said okay you saying bold he he can run faster than me so he must do something illegal no it's just because I'm too fat and too lazy you know and and so this is right now in the mind of so many people on the one side in in protection they accept a lot of Technical Training a lot of circus and and I accept it in obedience obedience you can show whatever you want know as long as as the dog fulfills the the the the rule book and as long you don't see po pressure in the dog it's okay for me yeah like like let's just stay in in protection phase for a moment long longer I I agree um the the distinction the difference between a dog that outs and is guarding and guarding to me does not mean just barking continuously but means I'm holding you and I'm prepared to strike at any given moment so the moment we have one out when the dog is okay I'm ready to fight you and then we have another one where the dog is like no I'm not ready to fight you now I'm just barking po Lightly for a toy we have to recognize and and ultimately I think this is not a problem for anybody with the knowledge

we have a Str ERS today but somehow fashion in training because oh this person is doing it that must be the way and then so many people kind of end up doing something that it's that they know it's not the real thing and and but somehow becomes the the new fashion at the moment cool um yes so where were we um yeah talking about protection and uh you know like sure you can you can deviate you can kind of Sidetrack and accomplish a behavior just for the sake of the behavior but then there is no purpose there is no meaning behind the behavior right and it's easy in protection to why would you want to change it just because somebody de decide okay this looks cool or maybe they had a problem with this one dog and that was their solution whatever the reason but somehow amazingly it becomes a trend and if you're to the point that if you're not doing this you feel that you're not going to make the points this is the the confusion where I think uh um the judges are very much responsible to to [Music] guide the competitors to what we need to look for and train for and prepare for yeah I mean that's yeah there you know there are so many different pictures I can get like an Excellence you know I there are many different pictures in tracking obedience and protection yes and I right now we have the discussion over the two different commands and the different Behavior after the Arts yes it's a trend a few years ago in Germany I had a feeling if your doct does not know you know two different outs he is not good enough right right yeah and and that's for me that's a part I don't like at all you know as a Handler I don't like at all as a dog owner I don't like at all as a judge I can live with it you know if as long as both behaviors are good it's from okay you know but that's not the the highest level of protection I want and and you see it also when you watch it with open eyes you see many mistakes in these behaviors right that's another that's another very important thing to make a note of it's very different I mean it's so different when you as a judge are on the field watching right here you can see the intention in the eyes you can see the dog breathing you can you can feel the the level of energy and intensity versus being on the sitting somewhere on the stadium versus watching it on live stream and and a lot of times you have the you know the the critics that are watching a video and they're replaying and zooming out and zooming in and and I do the same of

course I do the same but we have to also understand that a judge and a Helper and a competitor being on that moment in the field they see something very different sometimes than what somebody understands or on a live stream see yeah yes yes and also as a judge you have one chance to see the behavior you know and then in the next second you have to give your grade in your mind right and and and then maybe you know go deeper in Touching maybe at the end you can you evaluate you know before you give the point and maybe okay I mean I have here 95 but this was 96 so I give 96 but but you know you see the exercise and you have to to recognize what what what was happening and then you put it on your trial sheet and you give your grade and your points yeah yes and ultimately like really ultimately like I was uh um I don't know how much you followed on social media the discussions and uh Arnold kago made a made a long post about the fnbb and then there was a bunch of conversations that started I invited him to the podcast but he he was afraid that his English is not good enough and and he was on vacation but hopefully I get him so we can talk cuz I know I know know English is not a problem we can always figure it out we're all uh but but he he had some really good points and then there were some that I I'm not sure like like for example could the judging be could the points overall be like let's say 5 or 10% higher and I would say should sure they can be but what was more important was were the judges at least staying consistent in what they were doing and if the judge stays consistent in a certain trial for that trial then I think uh um that's more important than are the scores between 90 and 97 or are they between 86 and 93 sure they are very low but at the same time when I watch performances I see a lot of dogs that are very mechanical and very stressed like they I I like I don't know how to explain this but I I and I know because I compete you try to do the best you can with the knowledge that you have and there is that balance between where do you push the doct too much to get Precision to where at that point now the dog is clearly you know how you were talking about yeah there is some need of stress but but then there is a lot of dogs that they have the trainers have put so much stress that the dog is just not comfortable when they perform and you can feel that when you're on the field walking and watching them but you cannot

feel it when you're on the stance I mean that's in obedience for for a good obedience call The Obedience must be fluent you know from beginning to the end and you know it must be one fluent motion for me right and it's not it's not 10 exercises one after the other and one all in different styles it's you know it's a fluent thing you know like the speed is always good it's not the super crazy speed but the dog is always good in speed and he's he's very comfortable in what he and there is the the clarity of what you want me to do right yeah yeah and yeah but but that's that's about the FB about Arnold's post and Mia posted and and different people and you know what we talked at the beginning I did not follow fmbb because I had no live stream but what I saw mainly the videos you posted and some Facebook videos maybe some YouTube you know but overall not much and that's you know and then people said that the points must go higher so I watch the two obedience from the final from Mark Ole and Yanni you know you cannot go higher with points because all the obedience mistakes I'm pretty sure you can go lower if you want with this both works you know so so you know how can you say okay we have we need more points if I give O's obedience or Yan's obedience to 96 you know right just because they're on the finals right yeah yes but that's that's not not not the igp igp is a rule book and you it's not the final is not one against the other it's not like champions league in soccer you know you win and you or you lose it's it's it's a rule yes and for me there is no way to give more points that I mean this were were the best two dogs or people said okay the dog on third place maybe he's better than the dog on first place whatever that's what they talk I did not see you know but but you cannot go higher with points because there were clear mistakes yes yes I mean Yan Yanni loses in the sit out of motion he loses five from five out of Five Points yes so I I cannot give 96 that's that's not possible and I mean gosh I I I mean Yan is such a very close friend to me I know he's friends with you um all is I have highest respects I talk to him like I mean as I said sometimes we are friends sometimes we are enemies but ultimately when we stay long enough we appreciate who we are and Yanni could have won the reason Yanni didn't win is he missed a seat out of motion two times he missed it in the championship and he missed it in the to the point to where and again I I I mean I I I know how Yanni trains I know how he feels I I know there's like insane amount of passion and he's he's a good guy I mean he trained he comes with you

and but it can go even like crazier to where if you see the dog not doing the sit the first first time and then sit sit and then a down and then again it's almost like the there is something that at least for this trial is definitely a a conflict in the dog and and and I I'm going to say something probably super controversial here but even to the point where some judge can say you know I can d C the dog because of may may maybe that's too extreme but but you know what I'm saying like the like when you show one Behavior two times with with like whoa whoa whoa whoa and then you put the dog on a down you're not all you're basically not allowing at that point the judge to to come to a conclusion or am I wrong yeah that was I don't even know if he if he said down or how sit I don't you know I don't know the I think yeah I think he downed them eventually cuz the dog was uh uh not not not willing to to separate yeah I mean many years ago we had this discussion if you use commands which are not allowed and describe the exercise they will be you you but that is too much for you know that's that's also stupid stuff nobody wants and you know if you if you show your dog in in Bulgarian language I don't even know what you are talking about absolutely yeah stupid thing but I mean for example like this this exercise in the final maybe many people do not know but it's just five point but doesn't matter you know at the end the dog down so this is - 2.5 then we had at least one additional command which is minus 1.5 in the rule book you know right and then we had the steps from the first command to the next command which is eight nine steps it's another mistake so out of five there is nothing left yes you know yeah you know there is nothing left even if he would sit in the second command there is not much left and that's what many people don't know you know they just said oh he missed the sit yeah he did not miss the sit he missed the sit but he missed the first sit he made few steps and then he lay down so you know it's he missed the whole exercise yes and but yeah but the I know that people think there was cheating you know I cannot tell you about FB because we should watch like the first 20 docks in the world cup and then in the final then we can talk about cor yes what what I think okay in obedience what we talked many mistakes on both on both dogs for sure you know like like o bad exercises like sit down and stand and and Yanni do no sit then o also messed up the the about turn on the healing and yeah like Yan talk the sit and then you know like the the pickups in the dumbbells right you know what we

want to see and then the build up in the FR in the sand out so there were were mistakes for sure yes yes and the pickup and the presentation you know what I I I mean sorry to interrupt here keep your thought I want you to keep going with this but I I almost feel that we are at a point where even though it's finals and we assume well everybody should know what the why we're judging this way so we're not going to give a critique we're just going to give the score I think this is a wrong idea because clearly clearly we are not ready to just get a score we need we need to hear why I maybe we get there yeah but that's also one thing because of so many docks timeable you know that's also a reason why I don't like so many dogs because you cannot give a Critic out of out of time reasons there is critic with 150 dogs we need one more day and yeah and this is where it gets a little bit unfair towards the judges because he gives a point point but you don't get to hear why what he what the thinking is and maybe if you were to hear it and you go back and you read maybe you agree or disagree but but like this for most people that that don't read the rule book which is 90% of the I mean I can guarantee you and I'm sure you know like if you put 100 people that do igp for 20 years and you ask them to to give you forget about grading ex but just to give you the points of each exercise they would have no idea what it is they don't know that's that's what I find out many many times when I talk to people you know they talk about points but they don't know the point are dedicated what you know and then it's like oh you like this person because no no you you clearly don't know what the rules and the criterias are so let's talk about you know the two dogs from fbb I don't want to talk about much about points because I did not see even the video from Mark o protection the escape and the re Tech was missing on the final I don't know yeah that was my my uh my phone the wifi the Wi-Fi [ __ ] up it was on purpose yeah so I cannot talk about the point because that's you know the only one thing I saw what what I think what's the problem you see the two dogs you know behind each other all in obedience you know in the same flight and but that's not one dog against the other dog you know it's one dog in the rule book and the other dog in the rule book and and then for sure when I watch the different training training of the dogs and these are two totally different training Styles yes which is interesting yes I know Mark olle we are good friends since long time we trained together many many years and I know Yanni from you know some training we

make together when I when he worked our dogs and I saw what he's doing so it's Yanni is for me right now so more this modern style of training you know with I call it always the Fenty do training and Mark Ole is more like okay solid in some things and for sure like people like this fancy style and then you watch this dog and this dog and then you think okay this dog was way more fancier and all stuff so it must be better right but then we have to what what does the rule book require you know in different exercises like we take the protection of Yanni like the dog is perfect in speed and in gripping behavior for me like in holding like holding bar and the gings and then what he showed in a super nice way is transition you know and he showed it on I think in the one I think it was after Escape he showed it for three four five seconds you know and I know many people train transitions because it's it's an important part now of the rules but it's not necessary to show it this way to get full points yes but you know when I think okay this I like this picture so I think okay this dog is the better dog for sure or better train dog but it's just because I like the training style more doesn't mean it's the better dog at the point at the end [Music] so I really I really don't know if you know if there was something wrong it can be but it cannot be because we we don't see all all videos we had to watch all videos to give credit to the judges or not that's that's do you here's a question do you think we are I mean we're clearly a a a different generation we when we started to do this the reasons we were doing it and what we tried to get out of the dog and what we wanted to see out of the dog 15 20 30 years ago was very different than where things are changing now how how much do you think um the younger Generations understand that uh um more okay I'm outing but I'm ready to [ __ ] you up right now you know what I mean I think that's there is so much influence over social media in doct training and and like we said in for me protect action dog would Alo show natural behavior which is for me guarding guarding and striking is natural for me right and striking does not mean the long bite speed striking is the last step for me you know and and but in all the videos there is there's so much Behavior created and shown that that younger generation of of doct trainers you know they forget about some natural things that's what I think right and and we see this when we do a seminar so many times like people come and say h i want to

train the two different outs okay okay if you want you can try and then he comes with the dog on the field and then the dog does not even bite right you know right but but in the mind okay I have to to train this because this is what Facebook shows me all the time or I need this like Yan speed in a PO which is phenomenal you know the speed but you know they forget about the pickup they forget about the presentation yes and yes and this is what I think that the for me the basic stuff is missing a little bit in the mind of people of the hand loss but this is the I mean that that's a excellent point you're bringing and I think that's where judging overall fails to to to guide the trainers where to focus on uh um yeah I mean speed but then what's the pickup speed but then what's the presentation is it I mean the presentation of a dumbell it's it's so freaking amazing like hey I'm giving this to you no I'm not ready to exchange something here it's a it's a different level of presentation just as out and I'm ready to get you um but how can judging improve to to like like in my opinion this whole thing right now is because we we need to come up to first of all understanding what the rules are and what we need to accomplish and educate the judges is to be able to to educate the competitors what they need to train for um so complicated and then getting upset you know like I man when God I I mean you and I've been in this competitions for for so [ __ ] long I I I can give you two examples when I should have been the world champion without any doubt and clearly there is politics clearly there is human nature um can it be avoided I don't know probably we just we're humans just like take take [ __ ] soccer Maradona boom with the hand of God right I mean I mean what do what do you do sometimes you bend the rules and they work for you sometimes they don't and the unfortunate thing is that when it really hurts is when you know that you wanton and you have put this is another thing like many many many people don't understand the difference between winning a world champion and being in the top five even like that there is something special that has to happen including luck

including all the sty stars in the universe they have to line up for you that moment yeah and when you I think it's inevitable that um at some point somebody's going to favor somebody a little bit but just like in in fighting in martial arts ultimately if you focus and you make your performance you don't count a well I made mistakes but he also made mistakes no if you don't make the mistakes or you make less mistakes no matter how much the judge favors somebody then it becomes a very big problem to to justify then then it's a problem right um the four judges or two judges on one judge what's your take on this I mean you know like I don't know since when fmbb with more judges multiple judges for sure 10 years now yeah 2010 I think it started no yeah maybe maybe more than 10 years so now the first year with one judge but after almost all fbbs people were talking about cheating and bad judging you know so we had four charges three ch whatever on the field and still there was well problems with charging so that's for me not the solution I really would prefer what I say one good judge is enough if is good you know if he's good if he's fair if he's straight you know if he is not easy to manipulate from outside then it's a good judge and what I could live with maybe two good judges and they have to talk all the time each other and they find a common result at the end you know that's yeah that's that's maybe for me the most Fair system that's so crazy and they have to talk so maybe the points will go very low because we both together on the field I see mistakes You Don't See yes I didn't see you know so maybe come together we have to come together and find a solution and there is for me no room for cheating yeah you know because if you want to if I want to treat and you don't want you will not follow me right yeah I it's a man I like ever since we started to have more judges I've been taking one side or the other and I I I even today I don't think I have a clear idea what I would rather have what you're saying does make a lot of sense um like take this last World Championship for example you have of course the four judges come together and if I'm one of them I'll be curious what you got what you got but at the same time I think when you're of that caliber of

Judge and all of them are you know they've been it's not their first rodo so I don't think any of those judges because of their e even because of their ego it's like no these are my points I'm curious what your points are but I'm not going to change my what I understand because of you like I don't think this is happening but many people believe that oh oh you're giving that many points so I'm not good enough so I'm going to match your points I don't think that's happening do you I don't know maybe in some times I don't know as the problem is maybe that you know if you we we take the two judges or three judges and you are the one who is always always away from the others you know maybe too high maybe to low maybe you will start thinking about you know what am I doing yeah and then you will lose your straight lines in judging probably and the four judges in fbb you know I don't think that they there is no manipulation at this point when they give the points right maybe before right the only thing it's very easy if I if I take the points from all the others you know I can bring myself in a good light you know I can give the highest points because I know exactly they will cut my result off I give the lowest points you know that's what I can do if I want you know yeah this is another that's exactly the a point I was going to make and and you just hit it I think like I'm trying to put myself in the position of of being one of the four judges on the field and let's say it's my best friend competing it is extremely hard to to judge and and even when you try not to it's very very difficult for many reasons and I think sometimes may maybe one of the four judges is like well I'm going to give him 93 points when I should have given him 90 90 or 91 but I'm going to give him a point or two more but with the assumption that the other judges will give the right points and my points will get taken out right but then what happens when two judges decide to do that now it changes the game the [Music] outcome um I mean 2015 was a a extreme example of how the checks handled the the competition you know yes they that that was one extreme I I posted on Facebook and on Mia post and I said I mean at the end only won you know but she just won she just before yes yes yeah because she would have no chance to win when they keep on cheating what they did before yes and you know for CHS is cheating and now we have one judge cheating or not cheating you know that's so that's not that's not the solution you know one judge two judges three four Judes that's not a solution for me we need critique that's

what I think we need critics because it keeps it keeps the judge accountable it's like okay you're giving these points tell us how yeah right and then you can follow you can follow the line so you see okay you know maybe in obedience in the healing okay maybe the judge is not so crazy about super fancy healing style right so you know exactly okay even this St can make now full points in healing because the judges stay on his line and so the small judges is not a solution for me very difficult problem but um there are a few things we talked about or we you know maybe you know maybe it would be a solution like in obedience after each exercise give the grade or give the points so there is you know so but for sure the points will go also lower than they are now out of this no because what I always think at the end you check your score sheet and then you decide what you want to give the doc yeah and yeah it's it's easy to make out of an 88 you make a 90 because you like the the work of the do overall or you make out of a 9088 right if you make the points just right after the excise there is no chance for this you know great for the total picture and then you have going back to okay you're my friend and I'm happen to be the judge if I have it to where it's let's say 94.5 I'm giving you 95 no no question about it now if you're not my friend I'm giving you 94 and I think we can all live with that and understand that I think this is this is that's okay but uh making I tell you I mean I know we've talked about this so many time but like let's take tracking for example I used to always go tracking and I always find the nicest grass and nicest and you know training in these best conditions and eventually I come to realize that's not going to happen like I I start to look at the shitty spot on the field to where I'm going to lay my truck because if I need to get ready I really need to get ready and like with martial arts you know you have UFC boxing whatever it's like you leave it to the judges to decide or you knock the guy down and you win the fight so when you when you leave it to the judges when you have so many mistakes that the judges have to decide for you it's better that you focus on your training than continuing to blame the judges even if they're wrong right it's easy knock out or no knock out right game over and it's in your control and and I think we if we focus on well let's make a routine without mistakes now when the judge [ __ ] up now now how how do you you justify that right

yeah yeah that's you mentioned something very interesting about the the missed opportunity after a big competition such as World Championship regardless if it's fmbb or anything of okay let let's justify the points let's keep keep everybody to some level accountable and but I really don't think that um yeah I don't know I don't know it was a very interesting competition I loveed it and it's a very hard competition just being a competitor for so long it's very different when you have four or five people trying but then when it's just you and one more person in the championship and in the finals I mean you're this is a a extreme level of mental pressure on on as a Handler right cuz you know exactly who you need to beat and you know what needs to happen and it's a whole it's it's amazing um but as a community I think we're extremely quick to blame and find and look for for reasons that are sometimes not there at all and where where where do we go from here like we we all want to have it a Fair competition we all are especially not I wouldn't say all of us but there is people that you that's all that that's your life you sacrifice everything and that's what you do and yes just because you put so much time and so much effort and training and your sacrifices that doesn't mean that okay well here is your trophy no you still have to make it happen um but there is a disconnect between the rules a lot of the judges and then the competitors themselves not knowing like I forget about the top five in a in a high level competition but let's say anything under they training very hard they are putting everything in their to to to do the best they can but they lack understanding of what they need to train what they need to show to the judge they think this is what I need to show but that's actually most of the time not what as a judge you want to see that's for me there is one main thing I really tried here in Germany you know over the German working block commission whatever but I'm not sure if I have success probably or probably not or not I think we need another rule book and we need another so my idea or

it was was not just mine it was I don't know m c from the DMC we talked about this and I think there is a big problem we have the igp 3 you know as and we have igp 3 and you notice like I do we have the igb3 on Club level and we have the igb3 on world championship level yes yes so for me one one main step would be we need and I almost it was not 100% clear written but I I spent a lot of time thinking and talking and write stuff down so I said we need another igp program and it's called for me it was called igp C like competition so and we said okay it's the same like same exercises like in igp 3 you know there is no so if you do igp 3 with your dog you can fulfill also easily the igp competition but you know so the exercises are clear defined judging is stricter DQ is faster you know like what I said like for example obedience you're not allowed to brace the dog in the igp competition and all this different stuff you know right excuse me that's interesting yeah you know that's what I would really like to have in the future yeah that that could be something to look into you know what like yeah yeah and then you know when we make this igp competition ip3 you can educate the judges you you know you that's also a problem at least in Germany we have not so much than we used to have but we still have a lot of judges and sometimes you have the feeling okay this this judge will now judge the national championship or whatever just because he's it's his time you know so like yes and and and so we can say okay we have educated judges just for this igp competition we have educated helpers just for this and it would be more clear if you tell more the mistakes you know and then like for example there is just one additional command for out you know that's also you know picture that the public does not want to see that the dog does not out and then people start yelling one two three times and still not out so and I think this would make it easier also to judge a competition because it's clearer you know it's for sure at the end more [Music] difficult and yeah good point but I don't know but I think this would be very easy to to install you know in the in the igp rule book that's not a big thing you know yeah and that that actually yeah I mean this can be now I haven't thought of this but that that uh that can solve quite a bit of problems that we have with with how we judge um you know what what you said way in the beginning of the conversation about um the education of the judges and I think the one part that's failing is it's not only about the points there is much more like like almost to the point that you need um in in the judging

camps somebody with a good knowledge of General animal animal behavior to to kind of it's like hey there is okay yeah the dog may have low tail or high tail that's not necessarily immediate putting him in a certain category you you there is much more that you need to educate yourself to learn about what the dog is expressing how the dog and and even when you know it's not always easy to do but but I think this type of education is uh uh Missing as as presentation in in those judging uh uh big meetings to where it's not the the very obvious ones they're easy just like when I have a leader of puppies I know which is the best one and I know which is the but in the middle what do we do there yeah yeah it's easy to try 100 points right yeah but it's you know that's what as a judge if you want to educate yourself it's or if you want to get educated you are self respon for you know you there is nothing no and that's that's what I think when I think back to the good judges I I know I you you don't have to be the best Handler that's a to be a good judge that was another thing yeah yes what I really think you have to be surrounded by good trainers it's like for example for me one of the very best Tres I know was H and what that means is you have to understand different styles of training yeah yes like you know like H was was for me the example he come from or we live very close in the same area and then I did not know him anymore as a Handler but people told me he was a good Handler back in the T and he was also a good helper back in the days but when I met him he was already out of handling dogs training dogs and being Helper but yeah in every Club training he was there you know and in this club at this time there were many good trainers we had good malins we had very good successful German trer so there was a high level of training in this club and and H was there you know and he watched the dogs and he we talked and then after training we sit together and we talk about dogs and he talked about dogs you know and and and that's what I think if you need you don't have to be the best and whatever but you need you know to be surrounded by good trainers that you know there are R they are different docks yeah yeah and and then that's what I think what is missing we have judges and I'm pretty sure even names in the very high level they just step on training field the last 20 years for touching that's what I think you know they they travel all over the world and they go from one trial to the other and they just judge they have a judging career but they have no dog training career anymore and that does not mean that you will train your dog

but you are in a doct training part you no and this this is one thing which does not happen so and yeah I I don't want to you know shout out some names now but I know some like this for sure for sure yeah yeah but no I I totally agree with the whole idea well you have haven't you haven't trained a dog in 20 years it's okay it is okay if you if you can explain what you see and you have an eye and you you clearly can stay you're not deviating you're not like a roller coasters to where there is already 20 do who've given critiques and I cannot make sense what do you want to see now we have a big problem problem um uh you know another one that always kind of yes everybody wants high scores but then you give 94 to some obedience performance and then you give the 96 for a excellent performance and now you have only two points difference where it should be it should be good at least eight points between that makes you realize hey this is a different level it's just clearly a different level it's not that you're two points behind it's not close I mean the the grades are levels for sure right you know for excellence you need an excellent talkg excellent training and excellent showing a different level to a very good dog yes and that's to different level to a good dog so but people just look for the points and then ah two points and no but it's it's another level you know at least I mean obedience and protection you need an excellent doct to get an excellent tring is we have to still come up to some collective decision what are we doing what is igp is is breeding qu ities and genetic makeup how much is important how much the training and the the gimmicks the the fake stuff is important or like what are we who are we you know because um as much as we say well it's a sport what are we breeding what are we selecting then it's left to Ser very few people that have experience and ie and maybe we can continue to preserve some breed but you can train a dog in so let's let's take protection you know you can do whatever you want but eventually a good helper can twitch that dog and you just see him growing he's like [ __ ] that training let's go and yes he can lose the points but you appreciate that dog as as a raw material at that point right yeah I mean igp is no breeding selection but you know I can use it for my breeding if I see that's what I think you know it's not as like we talk about the spa dogs and the breeding dogs you can compete with both types but if you

watch with open eye you see differences in the docks even if they have the same points or maybe the one is is lower in the points you see so you can for me you can use igp as your personal selection also for breeding but some people have the the the the intuition and the long experience take how we were talking about the the the French ring the cup where you went it's like Oh I like that dog even though you don't know the anything about points in big details and whatever but you know very well the type of dog that hits home and somehow it's a really interesting point but this is where judges we kind of need them to to also somehow say well but and not and I don't mean give extra points when points are not deserved but uh but we we need to point out somehow our own genetic material in a competition uh I I don't know I'm getting yeah it was easier 20 years back because you need strong dogs that they can handle all the pressure right right yes and they they handled the pressure from the handlers they handled the pressure from the decoys and so it was a little bit easier and it was for sure more a question of quality than today because the doct training changed in a good way you know and and so even with the average or low Average stock you can score high high high high points now which is okay because we talk about sport right right right right but what what I always think with if you especially if you are very close if you are the judge there is more than just you know watching there's also a feeling in protection yes you know it's just okay okay barking w w w okay excellent now full grip nice transis now out excellent you know there is more than this and and you can see you know but it's not the job to select in this for reading in this in this compe right it's kind of how um what like that famous Mike Tyson saying like everybody has a plan and until you get punch in the face and same with protection right you can you can train you can train but then you get that stick hit you get that eye contact from the helper and now you bring the dogs row nature and you can see what do we have now we can balance how much training and how much quality innate qualities we have and this becomes more and more difficult for a judge to do yeah problem is also I think like we talk about protection like the rules you know it must be equal for all you know so like the the helpers must be equal for all so they have to run from this point to this point yeah then go to this point and do this many steps for this

you know and and and you know we all talk about yes we need serious dogs we need the real dogs and many people talk about this and for sure if we take a a helper in a big competition who is not equal because now he knows exactly okay I make one step more or I turn me one more time and then the dog is gone I'm sure the audience will kill you that's kind of goes back to to how the DMC curum was in the beginning to where you had more freedom to because of that specific dog to really evaluate it but then people didn't understand that it's like no let's do everything the same and now yeah that was even on on our curing system this was one of the main problems we had yeah you work my dog in other way than this dog right yes because your dog was weak in this part exactly exactly and the other dog was I in the first second he bit the sleeve I know exactly no matter what I will do now he will stay yes and and yeah people always you know cry for on for yeah we need this and this and this and we need strong dogs but they all want to treated be treated equal in this situation I I mean I can always shout out I want a very strong dog and I want to but I want to be the the helper should be equal to equal to my dog than to the others and if he makes one step more I will kill him that's that's that's what people do you know and there is a big difference between what I say and what I want and what I really do yeah man I don't know where do we go from here I wish we somehow everybody sits down and CMS down and we we have a we we kind of clear some path forward because we we really need that path forward like like people need to there is people that are having puppies right now that they're training puppies in a specific way without understanding the rules without understanding what judges want what the judges don't know the judges contradicting each other and O it is it's so hard but there's got to be solution yeah but but first of all we need a good rule book that's what I think you know and even with the exercise we we have now we have to describe them better we have to say what we exactly want then it must be logic like for example now they all talk about this divided exercises and that's not logic to me you know like take just take the the rrie over the the meter jump so it's divided in five just for the dumbbell work and 2.5 for the jumps no but if my dog does not bring the dumbbell it's it's minus 15 that's not logic right you know that's not logic that's that's so they divide it in five five five but if it doesn't do one it's 15 you know or the same with with with down down in recall you know we you have five for the main part which is Downing

coming in front and the rest is five for build up and whatever you know but if my dog does not do the down it's minus five that's also not logic right because I still have the recall and I have you so and you're leaving it now to individual judges to to to to make a a decision how they want to go and and man I I tell I mean for everybody that's listening like I you know I think um like my my honest opinion of that that fmbb was that you know the scores were the scores were low oh because there was plenty of points in every performance to be taken out and you cannot not take those points out because if you if you tolerate and you give this higher points then you become it's becoming a Christmas and and there is it changes what the competition is about really um so when when we say well the point should be much higher in this competition but when you watch the competition and this is the part that really sucks that we don't have videos but every time I watch a dog I mean there is there are so many big obvious points that are lost that you cannot give higher you should like if you give higher points it's it's wrong in all levels you know um but that's maybe a little bit the mentality you know of the handles and this is also for me you know like you know this this this reaching for points I want to take highest point and and this would also go back you know to to this igb3 and igp competition okay I can make my 299 in ig3 they don't count much no that's just 299 in a lower level jge competition and but on the one side I understand people that they want a points but like me if we compete in the same competition I want to be better than you you know yeah I want to go in the first place and you can go in the second place that's that's our goal for sure you know and I don't care about the points you know I think it's important to have also um how I mean the judges camp or whatever we call it that needs to that needs to get better and I'm sure they're trying but it has to get better it's not just points but also unless we find a way to reach to the competitors and say hey this is like what you're training right now it's not what a judge wants to see it's not what the rule books wants to see you can make it really nice but that's not what's about and and you know gosh I mean even like you have you know a primary and secondary part in in each exercise like there is some parts

that have incredible value and there is parts that can have mistake but they are a different level of mistakes but right but most competitors when I say this most competitors this goes over their head they have no idea what I just said yeah yeah yeah but but it's also it's not described in a proper way that's what I think right right right right and then like like what people you know what you said it's not you train and it looks good to you and that that does not mean that you get the full points for it because you think that's what the judge wants to see and that's not what the just wants to see but also what you train you remember this one video from this dog stand out of motion jumping right yes for sure it's funny but it's not correct you know right right I'm I'm not even sure if the Handler liked the way the doctor did it but maybe he had no other chance then to accept but but that's not yeah I mean I must understand if my dog will show this I will lose points no matter what the audience is saying and no matter how many people are clapping right and on top of that if if for that trainer and that dog that's the the best option go ahead go ahead of course but then you have to live with the points you deserve In This Moment correct yeah they're wrong some ways you know I mean and we I think it's time to stop this um okay well the Germans had their competition they won now the checks have their competition so they going to then this the B like like at some point we need to level it level it out and and start to be all together as a community very fair to each other because we are all in the same I don't think it's a [ __ ] matter of a country and thing like sure yeah I'm I'm from United States or yeah but we're doing we're all in the same thing like like country and and oh let's let's use this as an advantage we need to somehow at some point say you know what let's just try the best we can and even when the hor country when when somebody's hosting next year they have to try harder to show guys it we are trying very hard to be uh uh uh Fair yeah I mean the fairness in the sport starts with the ches for sure right right you know we can we can be fair as we want as a Handler or trainer as long as we don't get the fair results right and what is amazing is there is so many I mean reading all sorts of posts getting all sorts of private messages and and sometimes I get judges and they're like oh yeah this is so upsetting and I'm thinking to myself man do I what happens if I actually directly tell you that you really [ __ ] up a championship because you were one of those judges that you were extremely biased at some

point and you know we got to look at each other in yourself in the mirror and it's like well have I really been every time consistent and I didn't sure there is the competition and of course we go out we have a drinks and he like well I gave him 96 in truing because I like him like what the [ __ ] why like why you can still like the guy I mean one thing is for sure if I judge if I judge and my friend or my enemy competes he gets exactly the points I want to give him in this situation and you know and after that there is no room for excuses you know because exactly he get the points I want to give him and the same is on the big competitions like take fnbb FCI World Championship whatever the judges the most of them are deep enough in the spot they know exactly okay like FCI there are maybe 10 15 people who can win right and all the judges on the field know this 10 or 15 peop before the competition starts of course maybe they know don't know person not person but they know by name they know Ivan balabanov is coming he has a chance to win and in this situation you know when you are on the field you know all points you get the judge gives you by purpose there is no accident happening you know accidents happens by you know some guy from you know yes no number number 87 and 92 sure okay okay that's one thing for sure if you know so nobody can tell me after big competitions ah this was an accident that that's a poor lie nothing else you know and and this is maybe something we have to find the system that we can tell this to a judge that's all Al one thing we talked about it you know after that maybe it's it's it's one thing to make an evaluation after the competitions for the chur for the churches so you the competition finishes Sunday closing cemon is done next morning we meet again there is a commission and the charge from tracking Obedience of protection they have to come and then we talk about some special things yeah and then I'm sure if I if I'm an obvious cheeter you know and I know exactly I have to prove my points again after competition this makes me very uncomfortable especially when you know that that's coming right yeah that's coming you know when you know exactly okay the day after I have to do it again and tell a commission okay that's why I did this and they asked critical questions to me that's that's makes me very very uncomfortable and maybe this keeps the one or the other judge away from cheating I don't know and but also you could use this to educate and so my idea is okay now we have the three touches from this year and Monday we make you know like evaluation education and we take the three ches from next year in

the same group you know that's that's maybe also one thing we could think about the only problem is who is in the commission that's always going to be a problem too yeah true and for me that's not a commission you know it's not necessary that there are just judges maybe we can find some good handlers right you know successful trainers yeah that I think that was that that came quite a few times over the last last years to where there should be a a a competitors kind of committee that that interacts with the judges to some level too I think it it's not a bad idea at all yeah and this this this this does not happen right now with the um root Book Changing you know I'm sure not that for sure there are Judges they are both competitors and judges but I'm sure no nobody asks the good competitors in their country about ideas about new rules whatever you know and and and it's not just the ch's responsibility you know what happens on the field it's also the handle yes I mean ultimately it is for everything is for the handlers right and and maybe that's also a thing that you should accept as a judge or as a helper you are not the main person in the game you know you are just a service worker you know you are right this competition can take part and you know it can go on you are not the main person the main persons are the competitors and the dogs and then there are the charges and the helpers and and this is also maybe a thing that which changed I think especially in the helpers it changed a lot that there were many people that just start a helper career and no do training career mhm oh yeah that's another you know and it's not that it's not possible like no it's it is it's not the problem but you know you should you should always exact know the place you where you are and you are not the main person the main person is it's not about you it's not about you yeah I mean if you don't want to go we take you out and we place another one but if no competitor come the tri is empty and yeah maybe that's you know all in this Strat education think that that we should think about that you know we are not yeah overall as a judge we are just there to watch the work and analyze and criticize and find the right ranking that's our job difficult yeah I think there are chances you know to to to get better right I mean talking about the fnbb especially now that you know kind of clearing my head talking with you I mean the one thing that clearly needs to change is let's just have igp World Championship let's let's do that and let's focus on not how many participants we're going to have but how many of the top handlers in the world we can get in the

competition because that's a big difference already then give the critiques like give your points and justify your points you can look at each other's score sheets you can whatever but tell me how you saw the performance because that's going that's education on its own for for somebody's oh I'm I need to get ready for next year what are they looking for what because when they say well you got 93 points well why now you're leaving it up to me to decide and I may go offro having very different ideas of why the 93 points came and maybe it was just a long down you know exactly exactly yes yes and you change your whole system oh [ __ ] right I mean I think critique is important and so we I mean for me it's easy to talk about fbb because I will have no M anymore and I will never compete at fmbb but I think even as a spectator it's not interesting for me to many dogs that's what I think and so critique is one thing but with for critique we need more time that means not more days because I mean you know exactly dog training and showing dogs is really a hobby with you need to spend a lot of time a lot of money for it and not everybody can afford maybe you go to your breed World Championship then you go maybe if you have lck to the FCI World Championship then new game maybe to the National Championship so we don't need more days it's already enough how much we have to spend in this very we need CRI this means less participants and then I think we could found a solution you know what what we talked at the beginning that each country has minimum three and can go up to six seven or eight depending on whatever we will find in this and and then the critique and then the critique like I don't know how it is in the US but in Germany sometimes right now the criti lasts longer than the showing because they talk so much that judge decides to give a mini seminar of how he would train something yes and like like for example what I what I always say I don't want to critic what my dog was doing good you know so I don't want to critic like your dog was straight and focused in basic position that's the first I mean I expect my dog to be straight and focused in basic position for me it's necessary that they tell me okay he was maybe not straight and I did not see or he was not focused right right the critique is I mean of course you need just like with dog training you need to praise the dog but unless you point out what needs to change you're leaving it up to the Handler to be like okay well you know but but you know like it's not a negative critique but tell me what my dog did not do good or what I did not do

good maybe I did not count my Paces or I did this as a Handler help whatever you know that's important information and if there is something super extraordinary then you can tell oh this was now I don't know the fastest recall I ever saw yeah yeah almost things there is no need to that's what I think and then you can also cut off the time of the critique if you do it like this again like it was 15 years ago nobody talked about you know what was normal I guess there is this there is this thing about trying to attract more people to the sport and and I get that and it is important it's really important to attract you know Young young people and our sport is competing with the present day of internet and and and everything else so it's not easy to one like I the more I think about it the more I'm like yeah maybe we do need that competition versus Club level of uh judging as you're saying because um um that that can be a a better option uh okay yes we can attract people or but then there is the compet the real competition this is this is like I I need to know what I need to do so I can come out next championship you can attract the people in the basic you know in the clubs you can say hey it's easy this we can do bum bum bum Maybe also in the club in the igp1 123 you know there is no no failure you know it's not that you need 220 points or 210 points to go in the next level maybe you can say okay yeah you need if you make this point you can go from direct from one to two if you make two times this points you can go or whatever you know there there is a lot of room to to make it more interesting for beginners beginner he he will not go buy a dog and and he will not say Okay I want to become the next World Champion that's not normal you know and many people don't want to anyway oh and then you have the world championship which is the Champions League or the Super Bowl and and that's a different level to them what I do and I can accept it's different level but it's also I know exactly just because the winner has 200 82 points and I had 295 in my CL Drive there's still a big difference between this stock and this training and my do in my training yeah and then I'm not disappointed if I get if I go in a normal lower level competition and I I end up with 241 because I know there is a difference in the in the in the competitions or in the rules they all yeah many things we can talk about or we can make it more attractive for outside right and especially when we're talking World Championship you know that like like this top 50 people they're they're out of their mind they're they're exceptional they will lose their wives or husbands they will

they will [ __ ] sacrifice anything to accomplish something it's it's like a lot it's it's incredible amount and even the difference as I keep saying between being a world champion and being three times fifth place even even there there is a difference that it's acknowledged because you get this title and a lot of times the title doesn't again like I like personally I I have won two World Championships I think not that I didn't deserve this or deserve but I think there were two other times in my career with different dogs that I was more I more World Championship if I can say that like that you know than than when I did it and it sucks to to be at the place where you know that you won and every not everybody but most of the people like hey you won but most of the people do they really understand or they're going by emotion and friendship and not understand in the rules this is where the education that we don't have as a community yeah and what we said starts with the chapes you know and and maybe it's also difficult for some Churches let me say the the fmbb system for example that's also what I think you know now the last stock is coming of the competition and you know exactly okay this dog needs 95 to be the yeah yeah yeah it's all 94 to be second and you see this I'm sure when we go back and watch different competitions you know like we have the fbb system with the finals but many times you have the last stock of the competition like female in heat or you know it's it's the last but he's still in the in the point or in the in the in the place to win the competition and then you can see this many times the judges stop judging in this situation they just think about world champion or no world champion and it's really you know like in the FB if it's a close decision before when you watch it's always always just one point at the end or the same is with the female in heat you know it's always one point or maybe two points maximum you know but but that's for me that's they stop judging you know they said okay I know 96 world champion 94 second place so and then you don't even think about 88 or 99 you know you just think about these two points to to make him win yeah yeah and and and and that's not that's for me that's not cheating that's maybe yeah it's it's also a pressure on you oh it must be incredible I don't want to be that judge I can tell you that yeah and and this also happen so maybe the mbb system itself with the final at the end is not super perfect for

for straight Jing right no I mean it it proved yeah it proved in in since 2010 it proved plenty of times that four judges can still not uh uh they still can not uh uh give may make the the dog that and the team that is the better like it doesn't it doesn't it doesn't make difference it's unfortunate cuz logically you think okay yeah it should but it doesn't yeah yeah but maybe it's also because it's for some people too much [Music] pressure and also you know to make this comfortable or uncomfortable decision in one second you know this this also puts People Under Pressure so because it's not about how much points it's about world champion or not world champion yeah interesting point and yeah so so sometimes when we talk about treating that's you know our beginning topic yeah sometimes there is cheating for sure yeah I I can tell you examples I know exactly this was cheating you know if you know the the things behind you know like the the story yes course the story behind and then okay no and but also many times for me there is the audience think it was cheating but I think no it was just you know not obvious cheating it was just maybe too much pressure or maybe audience does not know what's the rule book what's in the rule books and handle you know that's it's not for sure they are Judges they cheat I know but there are also many judges they are really not able to stay straight because they are not mentally good enough or not good enough educated or yeah they don't judge on this high level they are not used to so many dogs on this high level or whatever know so I think that this is where we have to to start to take and renovate the system man talking so much it's a interesting conversation I'm so happy to to talk about this and we could have had this private phone call but it's interesting for people to hear just a a random thought and I don't like I cannot hopefully it is clear that I'm not taking any sides I I'm just frustrated that we need to find a uh solution to this [Music] um and I don't have it and but I think conversations like this is what's going to really make uh uh hopefully make a difference that that yeah it's it is very very hard to go by emotions and I've been like again I mean i' I've done this sport for for forever like just looking at my things here there's been ups and downs there been Fair judgments there been unfair

judgments and we cannot avoid it that like we cannot avoid that but we can do better by first of all educating the judges and educating the handlers what they what do we need to see because and we probably need to come first of all to an agre what the [ __ ] do we really want to see and if if we see it done this way and this way it could be that both ways are okay it it's it doesn't have to be only a certain way right that's that's for me always in obedience you know like 100 points is not the maximum of do training you know like talk about the dumbbells to get 10 out of 10 not a question about maximum speed right even okay we go back to Yan stocks if the pickup would be perfect we have this phenomenal speed and he will get 10 out of 10 points but that's not required for 10 out of 10 right right you know then we go back to both stocks we go back to O stock he has not the same speed but the speed is fast enough right right you know and he will get also 10 out of 10 points for this exercise and this is no and this is maybe the thing you know that that when you just compare one dog to the other this does not give you the right picture about I GP you know yeah there is always a dog who is faster or I don't know more focused or faster in protection but but you know 100 does not mean I need the fastest out of in the world only need the fastest dumble in the world I can get full points in many different ways know because ultimately you need the the clarity the understanding what I'm what I'm as a dog what I need to do then the uh um you need the uh absolutely you need the animation and the clarity but the animation and Clarity is not always judged by the speed that's kind of what you're trying to say and and I think most of high level competitors agree on that but we are stuck in this thing about speed because the the how do I say this they not so competent judges focus on the speed primarily and then of course as a trainer what do you do you also focus on the speed primarily yes yes and then yes speed is a good example because with speed you can make a wrong picture to the judge right and and on to top to top this off you can create speed by pressure and you

can create speed speed by positive motivation too right yeah yeah but you're focusing on only on the speed as the the the main factor and and that's not all yes and then yeah but that's that's yeah speed is a good example what I said like the dumbbell is for me the perfect example with high high speed you hide many mistakes at the end you know like when you watch different obedience works and different on on in competition different obediences and then there are this super highp speed dumb bus but there is almost no dog who makes nice presentation you know give the dumble away in a nice way and then can wait 3 seconds to go in basic position but with this type of work usually you get more points than with a little bit lack of speed but technical perfect train right and I prefer the technical perfect train dog for myself that's also part of my training but it does not work with all my dogs and but in my training that's for me more important you know that I okay my do makes nice presentation and then I take the dumbbell and he waits and hour then he has to go back and then he has to relax and wait but with speed you can hide a little bit all the mistakes because at the end you get points and that's where we need to just like how you said well for you as a judge or for somebody else as a judge or me as a competitor and somebody else as a competitor and this is where we we really need to kind of all come together it's like okay let's let's hash this out let's let's let's discuss it let's have arguments and decide and then bring it back to the dog training community so they know what to train um man it's so complicated I wish I wish we can sit down and have this like okay let's change it and let's make it better but I don't see how yeah I think you have to start in your own part you can do it like I mean like fmbb you are still part of fmbb have I think you still have influence over the aw and like now you saw Mia and and Mia is a very important person in the fmbb in my opinion and she a lot of influence you know and for sure she's one of the most known hand loss with Malino in the world and you know and she she should have a very strong fan base behind her and yeah I think yeah there there is you know the way to start we will not change the general system at all yeah like like we changed it in the DMC at the beginning for sure that's what we said we changed just our thing in the EMC the German M club we we start judging in a different way we start you know doing helper work maybe in a different way and in this small

little little group I think we started a lot of changes we have now in the whole world and the general thing is too big and also it's probably the FCI is too big and and the FCI is not very interested in in in working dog protection dos that's for sure that that that there is no question about that that um um they don't I don't think they even care to to defend what we do in in a public in like um yeah FCI is a very strange one forget about like I have a whole different thing about FCI especially with especially with how non FCI countries compete like me being from USA like last year or two years ago whenever the the team wins A first place but okay we give it to the FCI country it's like what what are we doing like really just because there is the big politics and the money about making pedigrees and the fights why do we need to submit to that machine and and not appreciate each other for our accomplishments like if I cannot imagine me being from some European country and somebody and I beat and somebody beats me from Australia that is let I don't know if they are FCI or no and then I'm the world champion I I'll be like I'll be no like no I I am not the world champion that was very strange thing for me do I remember because I what happened now but then okay USA is not member of FCI but that's yeah that's that's very strange you know that you you you cannot win I I I was just asking myself or wondering you know what's about the FC single world champion right I mean why why you are FCI single world champion if you are of f right right so that was for me just okay so why they take away the the team title but they don't care about single or Fabian or when you know that's I would not be surprised if they got 20 years back and be oh yeah let's maybe now they will come because they did not think about maybe you get a call tomorrow right right and instead trying to think well how can we keep this dog sport Community together and not create these silly conflicts that have no reason on we have plenty of conflicts why FCI cannot just say you know what this competition is not strictly an FCI competition or or or come up with some rule but you cannot like it's the most ridiculous thing like I absolutely would be ashamed to get a trophy when I know that I got my ass kicked whatever the sport is I mean I mean this is like a my mindblowing is is so disrespectful for for like or you say you know what you

guys are not allowed to compete here but then don't call it World Championship like make up make up your mind but what you're trying to do because of the ultimate politics of the FCI machine and trying no just because you're penalizing uh American team or or whatever team that's not FCI country that's not going to make AKC become FCI compliant this is a whole different War I mean we need an organization you know for sure but if the FCI is the right one I don't think so because but I understand also the the side of FCI you know for the FCI board the protection board is a problem child not more right right you know because I mean okay now I don't know how the rest now in Germany we have more problems with the animal abusive stuff law Animal Protection Law with the breeds you know like the the the frenes and whatever you know so they have problems in this part two but at the end it's if there is always the discussion about do training it's most time about protection sport top training so if I would be the chief of FCI I would try to get rid of this sport too you know it does not help me a lot like yeah yeah especially when you when you're running a business which FCI is a business yes and you see this at the W USV you know even if the German sheer is a very successful and good sport dog but the main money comes out of breedings and and this is not like 50 or 40 or 30 years ago that that the only reason to sell German Shepherds is the the um capability to work you know that's nobody in the show [Laughter] lines I think it's really interested in ip3 titled it's it's for them it's a must and and it's okay okay and they they can do and but but you know the main part is breeding and not training and showing competitions pedig yes pedig and that's the same with FCI so so we are such a small part of FCI you know I think worldwide I have no idea all the igp trainers worldwide in the FCI I not sure if it's even 1% of the membership oh I agree yeah yeah for no question so and so what what would I would do if I have amount of people under me and there's always one who causes me a pain in the ass you know I would kick him out or for sure I would not support him and and then that's yeah maybe that's also a reason you know that we yes we have we are in the middle you know there is the FCI Main and and and all the the judges and all the the organizations you know they are in the middle level of FCI and the and the competitors are in the lower level of FCI you know so there is a so there is pressure from the low level to the middle level and there is pressure from the high level to the to the middle level but pressure in the

form that they do nothing for this level yeah yeah and yes I don't know if it's a chance to create an organization you know worldwide Organization for yeah working dogs whatever you know but yes because it's all of us understand how much work it entails to to form a new and and I mean there is you you need a a serious manpower to to start something and then there is the step you know between professional and and nonprofessional and you see this now with with Maas working dog he he sent me the information now why he why there are no videos from fnbb yes he said okay The fnbb Wanted too much money from him and you know I mean he's a businessman he has to look it must be economical okay for him said it was for him just not possible to fulfill what they want so there are no videos and which I'm sure this is a very like I don't want to be in his shoes too because I don't know what I would do cuz I you know I mean you know there is the conflict between whatever fmbb and him and some individuals and whatever you know Edgar but then I'm sure he knew that making that decision hurt the whole igp world at the same time and and these are the kind of decisions that you as a person you have to make and and that's what he decided and and you got to respect it to some ways it's his his you know yes yes but you know I I believe it was a very personal decision you know from fmbb on the one side and and but now I'm pretty sure like like en offered this live stream what do you think how many people bought this live stream I don't know not many yeah there were so many it was difficult to find where you can get the live stream the crazy thing is I I bought it and I probably watched four maybe actually three performances during the championship and at the end I watched the the A and and yanis perform that's all did with uh keeping my fingers crossed that later I can go back and and sit down and have fun watching and and that was that was upsetting that they would have made more money with working do right I mean I don't know the live stream how many people I don't know not more than I'm sure not more than thousand worldwide live stream probably I agree but this is also the the the big thing as we were talking way earlier in the conversation to where I mean we can like each other and then we don't like each other and maybe in 10 years we are back to liking each

other but somehow unless we all as a community start to maintain the the focus on not destroying the the bigger objection the bigger goal of uh what the community is and still don't like each other and still make friends and make enemies and go back and forth but but somehow maintain this Direction where we're going cuz I don't know maybe I'm too old now to where I I didn't there were times in my life I'm like [ __ ] that you know go away we're done and but that's not the the right way and I'm not saying we have to be all friends this is absolutely no reason for all of us to be friends like why right yeah just we watch all soccer we are no friends exactly right yes yes it takes it takes a couple of weeks to cool down and get back to yeah um I don't know I think you don't know the situation like it's in Europe right now because in in in your country or in USA now it's it's also normal to make make the sport as a professional true and U not as a professional Handler but you know I know I mean many people in the in the United States live from do training yeah absolutely absolutely so since many many years and in in Europe this first started you know I don't know 15 years ago maybe and still not so many people do it and but there there is still this you know ah and and you know these are professionals and and know there is this jealousy also behind it you know like okay he's professional dop trainer and he makes money and he has time the whole day to train and you know and the same is this working do he makes money with do train and videos and whatever and and if the board still exist in 20 years I'm sure this is not a topic anymore because it will become also more and more professional or business side business I hope I hope so but you know what is interesting even in the states even in the awma the Mal Club you still have people including in the executive board to where they genuinely dislike people that are professionals not not understanding that for me to become professional I it's not like oh yeah I'm going to be professional and I'm going to just make a lot of money of doct training and I get to train no I'm actually really taking an incredible risk of what I'm going to have for dinner tomorrow because I've chosen to become a professional doct trainer and and you have your 9 to5 job and you have secure income and secure

pension and and everything and you are a hobbi doct triner but I don't think we need to compare it like this everybody has a choice and choosing to be a professional doct trainer it has a lot of risk it has a lot of it's not all rainbows and unicorns you you [ __ ] don't don't know when it's Sunday you don't know when it's 8:00 p.m. you you're in you know training dogs and and eventually comes time to train your own dog and you're exhausted and you look at your dog ready to go and you're like I sorry buddy but can't do it today I yeah yeah that's that's what people don't see I mean you know I I'm I'm professional dog trainer too but you know not not not on my own I'm I'm employer of the state right right so my job is to drain dogs every day no from yeah 8 to 6 or8 to four whatever you know so we train and train and train and then this happens to me too that I so sometimes I'm not in the best mood you know to trade my own dog but and yeah but that's in in in Europe or I mean in Germany I think it's really there is this jealousy you know still existing oh this guy makes money right right let's let's quash him it's whatever hopefully hopefully conversations like this like instead of uh constantly pointing fingers cuz and and always being unhappy I think it's good to point fingers it's good to be unhappy but we we have to find ways to to move forward from this and and I will say it again it starts by because I I read so many comments so many different Facebook and whatever social media things about this particular F mbbn and a lot it's based on emotions but mostly based on lack of understanding the rules yeah yeah I talked to Matias a few years months I don't know ago about a webinar for handlers yeah yeah yeah Like A tes meeting yes you know okay we do like when we do chudes meeting we watch different videos and then you have one who moderates all the stuff and he said okay look people this this and this and this this is acceptable behavior this is not so good you know that that would be brilliant yeah I think this would be a good idea you know for many no that that would be not a good idea this is like a must have to happen like uh uh um I mean that's like out out of everything we have talked about that's probably where we need to start is you can organize we do yeah because what how how does it work right now you have the judges meeting and then the judge from the country comes back and makes a

presentation of their version of what the meeting was which already is their own representation and then there is handful of people that actually get that and uh majority of people that train dogs they don't know any of it they continue to do the wrong things because they think that's what the judge would really go wow this is so cool maybe with bad luck at the next competition they they know what you know right but I I would really I I think also the hand of should know you know what's good what's Point predicted you know what what can I dedicated to this and this and this what I think this would be an interesting part to do that would be a I I hope you guys I mean I hope you get in that and and I mean this is like it just makes sense like it like it has to happen it has to happen because it will eliminate the conversation like right now as I said like I'm re reading all sorts of different post on Facebook and oh I'm so upset and whatever and we need fairness and we need to replace the judges and it's like do you know how do you judge an exercise and how what categories and do do you have any idea you don't so sit down and be quiet until you have something to say that that is a value yeah yes maybe we can try to create something like this go for it that's really a problem that many really good handlers don't know like for example until it's better now but like you know healing and and for the most handlers healing was finished after healing right right right don't sit out of [Music] motion yes very true yeah and and and and really good handlers you know not beginners in the club yeah yeah yeah good handlers or yeah there are so many examples like you know like good handlers don't know the rules or what you know the points or but that's also a question because it's not described you cannot read you know in the very old Rule books it was better you had this this for the for the judges this book and the rule book so you could read both and then you know more what they expect from you and your dog [Music] it is interesting maybe time for you know maybe it's time for webinars videos whatever yes very much so that that's a brilliant idea very much so because I I mean even even a high level competitor somehow intuitively they can give a very close score to the total score but they cannot say how that happened and that's important yeah the overall picture you

can look yes that's what we always call the the the defense judges you know I can stand at the fence and then I look the do and overall I looked the dog and I think this was 91 right yes and that's that's easy you know most times I'm right yeah and this is a very false feeling for for a competitor or anybody that trains because you kind of know even though you are close to the score or maybe you gave exactly the same score as a judge you really don't understand how that happened yeah but this was interesting for me when I was the head jge or when when I was touching at the DMC and we start you know this judges meetings in the club so we judge different dogs and then we had different values on mistakes this small group five six people different values on some mistakes but the overall value we were pretty close most yeah that's a that's a good good place to move from yeah yeah and and this is also you know what people don't know that's not not each judge has the same eye for this and for this but in the overall they must be close that's you know that's yeah I I don't know how to explain but yeah like like for me the sit out of motion maybe I could live with a little bit a slower sit than another touch you know right right but but therefore I want more you know Focus or expression in build up yeah and and there is at the end not so much difference in this but but you know all this different mistakes is not that's what what's important that handers know that this this and this and this and this and this is not right and this can cause you know point dediction you know that okay you do your dog is doing this this will May cost two points your dog is doing this this may cost two points yes and it it could cost points it's not that you know it's with all touches the same that's also one but but for high level we should be in the same area at the end high level yeah and then man it it just it puts us in such a crazy situations you know like uh competitions and the judge decides to on of the winner one's not the winner and and the one is your really close friend and you train together and you really believe that they should be the champion but they're not and this happens all the time and there is a way forward I hope I hope we we we we find that hopefully this is useful for everybody what we're talking I don't know I mean we're just I don't I think there is some interesting points very actually valuable points and again like

um I'm sure many people could you think one who was the real world champion I it's like why would you put me in this place I I have my opinion um but that doesn't mean that that is the right opinion that should be left to the judges and should be um you know like we we have to learn from what goes wrong and improve instead of okay well this went wrong this way now let's see what happens next year we make we're going to make it wrong but it's going to be benefiting this way it's like no that's we've done this for so many years that's not the right way to do it yeah yeah yeah this must happen cool man I think we leave it here I will be curious to hear like everybody's comments when when we post the podcast because uh we can start some conversations and we can we can lead some you know I know I know people will agree and disagree with us and that's totally okay that's that's it should be that way yeah yeah that's okay you know you should be able to live with criti that's what I think you know but the main thing is not to not to get into the point well we got [ __ ] let's now see how we can no let's see how we can really create what like a the as as the best possible option to be a Hest competition but educate ourself first and then decide what we want instead of oh well this judge or this competitor or the like this this is based on emotions and I and again like I've just as you we we have failed we've been on both sides at one point on another um it's part of competition too you you got to kind of you know like it or not you got to take the good and the bad of competition any competition right yes but that's I mean that's you know like the critique and this and that was for me as a judge I don't know maybe I I for sure there were big mistakes in all my touching sometimes for sure that's not but you can believe or not I really I think I never treated I think right maybe people think different I don't know but I think I I never treat I always try to do my best but if my best was good enough it's not my fault in this moment you know I try to give my best you know me for sure you know in the first second when you tell me something and criticize me for sure the first second I'm high pressure you know yeah but you know after a distance or time distance I will come down and then you know and and and this should be possible you know to to to it's not easy it's not easy to be a judge like I I mean I I got a license I I just I'm like no I there's no way like I I can't like it just I can't there is many

competitors that could be judges but they choose not to so we we have to appreciate the people that are taking that same with helpers it's like if you're going to be a helper in a world championship you're going to have a certain amount of people that's going to say that you suck like no question but as long as you you you prepare and you do the best you can and yeah right right right right maybe it's just not good enough but then maybe it's not your fault it's the fault of the people they choose you right yeah I think yeah yeah there's been plenty of times where you would have a helper that oh yeah let's put them on the back half let him catch 120 crazy malos like oh [ __ ] like Marcos thank you my man thank you for the conversation and um looking forward to the next one hopefully hopefully something more exciting we talk about than than trying to resolve the the igp judging you know but I think that was very cool conversation so thank you very much man yeah I enjoyed so next time man thank you [Music]