에피소드 34: Louis Donald

But it's, that's the, the world with the dogs, you know. That's the cool thing with the dogs. We, we meet every type of person we can imagine. People we would never meet. Absolutely. Absolutely. And, and, and what is really cool that we meet them on a different level where it's a, it's not anything related to their business or it's just really a very different atmosphere. We are talking dogs, it's always a, a, something. It's a little playing field. Yes, exactly right. It, it, no one's in charge. Yeah. Um, and like the, uh, two weeks ago, Ivan, for me, you know, I'm sitting signing books and Gail prepares them, gives me the book. I open it. Okay. Who do I sign this to? And here's me signing a book to George Foreman. Foreman, of course. How can you not, right? Here's me, uh, to my best friend, George. So amazing. Best wishes. Extraordinary, isn't it? He's one of the, the really, like the long time diehard, like, like real German shepherd, man, George Foreman. Yeah, exactly. So, uh, so a book went to him a couple of weeks ago. Yeah. So I'll make the, I mean, I guess we already got going, but I'll make the, the introduction real quick and, and we see where we take the conversation. Yeah. You have a very beautiful view behind. So good morning. Thank you. Where are you in Australia? Surf is paradise. It looks like paradise right behind you. It is. So from, from where we are here, Ivan, at the front of this property is a big river, Narang River, uh, boats going up and down out, going to sea. And on the other side, literally two minutes walk is the beach. Okay. Is that like what state? Like the Brisbane? Queensland. Queensland. Yeah. Uh, 40 minutes, uh, on a, uh, uh, autobahn to, to Brisbane. Very cool. So it's, it's, it's a good location. Yeah. So when I was setting the room up, you remember I said, do you, what do you want the backdrop to be? So what, what it was, Ivan, the, the, there are blinds behind me that I can pull down to the floor. So all you would have is white. But then when I put it, I thought, no, it's not too distracting and it looked too sterile. Yes. No, it's beautiful. I love it. I love it. Um, all right, everybody. So we, we kind of started the conversation already, but, uh, this is, uh, training without conflict podcast number 34. And I get to talk to a very interesting and very knowledgeable person when it comes to German shepherds. Uh, Louis Donald, he's from Australia. He got his working judge's license in like 1974. 1978 became the, uh, Australian first SV judge. And, uh, uh, I believe the youngest at the time SV judge.

Um, he's been involved more than 50 years in the dog world and specifically German shepherd dog. He has, uh, amazing book. Um, that I, I don't even know if I can lift it. That's just, it's insane. Like what you've done with this. I mean, this is, uh, a real treasure. Like this is something that for me, for where I come from back in Eastern Europe, we would dream because of lack of internet, we would dream to have any little pamphlet of, of any information about what's going on with the dogs. And when I'm saying dogs, back at that time, even when you say dogs, you, you automatically refer to German shepherd because that was the, clearly the, the most well organized, uh, a breeding program with some vision. And, and, and, and that's where the whole popularity became and that's where are we going to talk about? So, um, I just want to welcome you and thank you for joining me for the conversation. Thank you, Ivan. It's a great pleasure. Um, I'm, um, uh, I'm, I'm really looking forward to talking with you. Thank you. So, since we started about the book, um, and I, I'm going to have so many cool questions because as I said, I grew up with, yeah, so I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, I had a, which was very insanely difficult to have because that was communist time. That was the Berlin wall time. Yes. You, you, you, this, this just cannot just happen like that. You know, having this from the Ziger, uh, a direct daughter coming to Bulgaria. That, that's not, I, on top of that, me actually being able to, I mean, it was something kind of special at the time. Um, but, uh, yeah, it came through, through the Czech Republic and whatever. And so we, I get to experience that, but this was the time for me where, uh, yeah. So you, you, I admire your whole ability to, to have all this data. Like this is, like I can train dogs, but I, and I breed, I breed Malinois for over 40 years, but I would have problems breaking down my own pedigrees. Yes. And, and you seem to be so knowledgeable. It's so fascinating. So I'm, I'm ready to get educated. And I have so many questions, but I, my time when I first got into dogs, the, the people that knew dogs, they would be talking kind of quantum moods. And this, this became, became imprinted in me at the time and it never went away. And I didn't even know what that meant at the time, but with the passion, the, the dog people were talking about it. I think that's what fascinated me and made me realize that there is something into this dog world that, that is not just simple, uh, dog ownership, right? Yes. So the book is amazing. I mean, uh, I, I cannot recommend it.

I, I, I personally have never seen book like this. Yeah. No one has. No, no. I mean, I, I, I, I have no idea how much work you put, but this is, this is a little treasure. And, and especially in today's time when you have internet and it seems like everything is right on your fingertips. It's not quite like that. It's very different to have something, a hard copy of, of like, like thousands of photographs and illustrations. And, uh, I mean, it's really like the, the most comprehensive book I have seen on, on any, anything dogs. Um, so like, I mean, congratulations on this and you're now on the second edition. So I guess how, how, how did I, how much work and how did you even decide to, to jump into this? Was it, did you have this really humongous vision to, to, to create this or was it like, I'm going to make a book and then it just kept going and going and how, how did it all go? Uh, yes, that's a good question. Um, if I, if I go back to the beginning, I guess the, the earliest seeds I've been, uh, for me thinking about writing a book, uh, not surprisingly as it would be with anyone that's passionate about anything and they become successful in that endeavor. And I started, uh, I got my first German shepherd dog when I was 15 years of age. I'm now 76. So that was a long time ago. And I was very fortunate that that was a good dog. And I, I bought his sister, um, uh, and being 15 years of age, the way I made the money was, uh, delivering newspapers at four o'clock in the morning. And it would be four, five, six months, 12 months salary to buy, to buy a dog. And I bought that dog sister. Uh, she was the first Seagrin in, in Australia under a German judge. Uh, so I started off with very good dogs and my kennel was very successful. And so not surprisingly, Ivan, as it would be with anybody, friends would say, oh, Lily, you should write a book. Uh, you, you, you're, you're so successful, et cetera. And, uh, probably, um, a large proportion of people that are involved in dogs and been successful, they would have been, uh, uh, propositioned as it were by friends, even their mother, you know, you should write a book. So that's where it started. But in my mind, you're dreaming. The, the, the, the, the, the, the, the idea of writing a book for me was well beyond what I felt my capabilities were. Uh, so it was a nice, uh, thought, but not something I ever took seriously. And then, and then, um, I used to go to Germany a lot every year for the Seagrin show. And this is now going back to around 1980. And I used to stay with Walter Martin of Vina Our Kennels. Yeah.

And, um, uh, and I was very fortunate that, uh, I was one of the few people that used to stay with him and his wife, uh, in, in his home and go to the kennels every day, walking with the dogs, having dinner with him, et cetera. Exactly. Having dinner and having this really candid, real conversation. Exactly. This is, this is priceless right there. Exactly. Like his favorite thing, Ivan, was in the afternoon when the kennels were cleaned, um, we would go to the Miramar sauna, a big lake in Vienheim and he would go into the sauna, uh, and he liked to have a good tag. Yeah. And, um, and during one of those sessions, we were sitting outside, uh, at the sauna and he said, Louie, you and I need to write a book together. And you can imagine for me, he's like God. I know. And he's saying to me, I should write a book with him. Says a lot, of course, about, uh, our relationship. And more importantly, Ivan, what he thought of me and my understanding of the dogs. That's a big thing. That's exactly. So I said, yes, I'd, I'd like to do that, but that would mean moving to Germany, uh, to write the book. I had two kids, but we looked at a kennel, uh, in the Vienheim conclave, uh, for me to buy, but it all turned out logistically too difficult kids schooling, et cetera. And, uh, all that happened, he did then, uh, buy a book and wrote notes for the book to give to me because the basis of it was for Walter. I did the work. He did, he did the managing. I did the work. So he wrote notes for me and quite a few of the things he, he wrote are in the book. And then he, he, he passed away, of course, uh, prematurely. That was the end of it. And then about six years ago, I was in Italy at the Italian Seager show and a very good friend of mine, uh, and also a dedicated lady to the breed in England, Wendy Stevens, who then owned Arden Grange dog food, Wendy said to me, Louie, you need to write a book. Uh, the book could be a legacy to, to, uh, to both of us and to yourself, but more importantly, I've gained a lot, benefited a lot, uh, in, in, in my association with dogs in so much as, uh, friends and the dogs, uh, and so on themselves. And, uh, it'd be great if you actually did this. And then 72 years of age, you know, you're running out of time. And with her support, uh, financially that, uh, allowed me to seriously consider it. And so I said, right, uh, I'll write a book on the German shepherd dog. And I said, what should the title be? She said, well, it needs to be a book that covers absolutely everything across the whole spectrum. I get, I get goosebumps just listening to this cause that's, that's, that's already

an insane pressure because this is an endless work. I mean, what you guys did, this is, this is off the roof of the charts. Like, and I've never written a book to me. Anyone that writes a book has got to be really smart, right? Really smart. And in my head, I'm not that smart, but, uh, of course I've got dog books and I've got an idea of, of, of what, what it means in that broader context. Um, and I said, okay, so, uh, you want me to write a book, uh, the, the definitive German shepherd dog covers everything. Uh, I need to discover everything for everybody that is watching this. Like it truly covers everything from, from, from, from like wolf all the way to, to, uh, locomotion and, and movement and, and dogs from nine, 1899 to the 21 or two. And, and, and East German dogs and all the conformation. I mean, like, like when he says everything, it really is everything. It's insane. Like it's insane. And yes. And of course, if you think about it, Ivan, uh, you imagine you and I sitting talking and you're, you're the, you're the one that is proposing it to me and allowing it to happen. Um, and you say, Louis, it needs to cover everything. Over to you. What does that mean? And so with that, okay, I'll do it. And, and, uh, Wendy would, wanted me to complete it in 12 months. Wow. To coincide with, uh, a large show in England, anniversary show. So I sat down, gave some thought to how I might do it and made a decision that I would, uh, have a Christmas holiday, uh, because it was late in the year then. I'll have Christmas holidays. Fly fishing in Tasmania with my friends. And on the 5th of January at 9. AM, I start the book. And because I have a management background, uh, with large companies, with a lot of employees, I'm highly disciplined. You had a discipline. I was going to say that. Yes. And so I knew without discipline, nothing happens. Just blah, blah, blah, blah. Correct. So nine o'clock I start. That's luxury for me. I was used to starting at 7. AM in, and I'd retired. That was important. Of course, I'd retired. And I'd finish at 5 o'clock. And I'd do it six days a week until the book's finished. Yeah. From 5 till 6, I played my guitars. So the book took almost four years to write, full time, nine till five, six days a week for four years, nonstop. I don't even know what to say to this. Because I, I, I've, I, I wrote a book in the nineties and it was just about, it's called Advanced Schutzhund. And it was at a time, right around the time when the, the training approaches started to shift a little bit to more dog friendly. So I designed it a little bit of a, more of a program that reflected to that.

I, I don't know, maybe, maybe it's 200, maybe max 300 pages maximum. Which is the normal good size book, isn't it? Yeah. I was, I, I think I quit at least three times as I was doing it. I was like, so I have like utmost admiration. Like I'm absolutely mind blown of the work that you put in this. And, and, and, and you know, that's legacy. I mean, that's, that, that's, I, I'm, I don't know. It's, it's amazing that you did it and congratulations for that. And what, what did you learn from spending that amount of time looking back into the breed? Because that's a, that's a special time. I think anybody that decides to write a book, even if the book never gets published, you're, you're, you sit down with your thoughts and you're deeply into something of interest to you. Yes. And I'm sure you finding things that are, that have been always there, but you never brought them out to yourself. Yeah. Yeah. Ivan, you know, the thing that we hear all the time in dogs is the cliche, you're never too old to learn more, right? We hear it all the time. And the truth is 90% of people, including judges who say that don't believe it. They, they believe they know everything that needs to be written, but, but it's nice to say, I, I'm always learning. With me, with me, with me, if I quantified it, so here's me writing the book and I'm recognized as an authority in the breed. People are looking to me as the, the senior judge, the judges, the judges lecturer. And in quantifiable terms, from starting the book to finishing it, I probably in, in, in, yeah, in quantifiable terms, I've learned at least 70% more than I knew when I started. That is huge. And every single day, every single day, I'm on the web looking for new things to learn. And then when I find something interesting, I'll put it on Facebook, uh, for people to read. But if we go back, if you don't mind, if I go back to the beginning, because I think it's interesting and important. So, day one arrives, nine o'clock. I'm sitting here in my study and I've got a big study with about 50 books, dog books. I've got them all. And Gail was with me. Gail's sitting in the background listening. Come and say hello. Come and say hello. Because Gail is very involved, as you know. I'm sure she has to be. I'm sure. So, uh, I was sitting with Gail and I said, okay, I'm going to write this book. I know the title. That's it. So, I'm looking at my whole range of books and I pulled one down. Well, what did, um, uh, Malcolm Griffiths write about, uh, Willis write about? What did this one write about? What did NM Elliott write? Look at the index. And Gail said, look at the index. Smart.

So, I looked at the index. And with all due respect, Malcolm Willis is different because that was purely genetics. But in the general dog books, pretty well the same thing. The beginning, von Stefanitz. Correct. He's laying on the bank of the Rhine and he saw this dog and he had, you know, this vision. Uh, and then you've got a bit on bloodlines, feeding, uh, a bit on showing, a couple of pedigrees. Pretty well all the same. Very much. The difference between each book, Ivan, I noticed, was quite parochial. If it was written in America, say Strickland or, or Fred Lanting, it had an American slant. Right. If it was German, England, it had an English slant. There were nothing in my mind. Unifying. It was global. But that's the way it was back then. It was English, German, American. Yes. Throw stones at each other. Their dogs are terrible. My dog's beautiful. Uh, the, the, the segregation. Now, particularly my interest in the WSV, as you saw in Lama in Spain, is the universal German shepherd dog. There's one breed standard. Now, if you have a preference to an exaggerated style, that's cool for you. If you prefer a dog that's for working, uh, and there's a bit drier and less angulated, good for you. But don't try to split the breed into pieces. For me, it's one breed, uh, with different styles to reflect different functions. And so, uh, I concluded that what was written, I wasn't going to write another me too book. It's all been said a thousand times just with a parochial slant. So, what I need to do is do something a bit different. So, the first thing is, definitive means I'm putting a lot more material than anybody else has. And then the big one was this, Ivan. And this is why the book is so big. And it set the tone for everything I did. I reflected back when I was 15. And I wanted to learn about German shepherd dogs. And so, I'll buy a book. And just a matter of interest, my prized possession was a slug gun. And I sold the slug gun to buy the book. An American book. A good book. Quite a good book. But very general. I reflected back on that. I thought when I was 15, I was so passionate. Wanted to learn. But wanted to learn correctly. Uh, what sort of book would I want if I was now 15 today? A young child. I'd want a book that I could, if I was passionate. And in my mind, that passion is I'm going to be a judge. Maybe I'm going to be the best judge in the world. I'm going to be the president of the SV. If, if, if, if that is an ambition that a young child had, which is great. What I want is a book that a child can understand what they need at that point in time.

But, as they grow and their interest grows and their ability to comprehend technical issues grows, the book will grow with them. Correct. And so, this is a book for a child that they will still be reading and using as a reference when they're my age. Very true. That's one bit. The other end of the spectrum is I want a book that a world breed expert, a Lothar Quall, a Ben Webber, would want to buy because it would give them what they want in lecturing and so on. And also, and this is perhaps could be taken the wrong way, they would learn things they didn't know. Shock, horror. When I say that, things they didn't know, at that time, it was things I didn't know either. But my research, my reading of papers from scientists would give me that information. And the best example of the spectrum covering a child, Ivan, the hardest bit was the locomotion chapter. So, when I was writing the locomotion chapter, the technical bit, how much energy is used, breaths per beat, et cetera, not a problem. I can handle that. But how do I explain to a child how a dog with four legs walks, trots and gallops? How do I do that? And the idea of how I would do it came about watching a child's movie like Lion King. And I said to the girl, we need an animator because animators can take sticks and make them work. So, they know how the joints, how everything works like no one else. And so, I contacted one of the leading animators in the world. Wow. And he worked with me and wrote that chapter, which starts with, if a dog walked on sticks, this is what would happen. Now, we're going to add another two legs to it. But now, it's got to be bendy. And that's how that started. But that expanded the book a lot, Ivan, because really, I was writing for two demographics. And I remember when I asked Andrew Brace, who's one of the top Ulbridge judges in the world and in England, wrote a very good book himself. And I said, Andrew, I'm going to write a book to satisfy a child to the world's expert. He said, Louis, good luck with that. No kidding. I tell you when the book came, I saw it. That was just the initial concept, Ivan. So, now I've got the concept. It covers everything. It must be suitable for a child through to the world's leading expert. That set the concept for it. It's insane because when I got the book and I'm like, you know, of course, I already knew that it's a very true work. But I'm busy. I'm super busy. So, I just open random pages here and there just out of pure curiosity. It'll take a year to read it, probably. Guess what? Three hours later, I'm like, I need to stop. I have things to do.

That's wonderful. That's wonderful. Because, just as you said, you did a very good job with this. And, guys, this is by no means any advertisement. Like, truly what I mean about the work of Louis and that book. And, like, as you said, the 15-year-old, like, you basically described me. Like, I'm like, okay, yeah, I got the German Shepherd. Yes. And what do I feed it? How much? I mean, these are, like, immediate important questions. And we can, that are important even today, even more so than before, because now we are flooded with good and bad information. And you may be feeling something that they will convince you that it's the right thing to do, which is very harmful in a lot of ways. Yes. So. That's, that's, that point is good. You mentioned nutrition. Because that was another aspect that developed in the concept, Ivan. Once I'd started. So, again, if I go back just a little bit. Yes. To the beginning. So, okay, that's the concept. And now I'll start really where everyone else started. All the other books. 1899. SV. Captain Von Stephan. Captain Von Stephan. On the banks of the Rhine. Dog trotting around. Wonderful. I'm going to create the super German Shepherd dog. And that's where they all start. Yes. That's the beginning. That's where I'll start. But because I'm well known, Ivan, for being someone who loves telling a story. And I often get criticized because Louie never shuts up. It's like, see that microphone? Love that. Right? That's one of my favorite things. So, for most dog people, it's don't let Louie near a microphone. And to me, I like stories and analogies because they're memorable. Yes. And I don't believe in the approach of if I tell you then it must be true, don't question what I've told you. I'll tell you what I think and explain why I'm saying it. And then you use your own intelligence to work out whether you think it's correct or not. So, I'll start with von Steffenitz laying on the banks of the Rhine and having his vision, his epiphany. So, I did that. And I knew because I felt what I want, and I said this in the book, is the way I'll write the book is that it's an interesting journey and a story. And the biggest, heaviest aspect in that regard, Ivan, of making something interesting is the breeds development, 1899 to now. 130 years of development. I've got books that people have written just on that. Right. The whole 130 years. Bloodlines, pedigrees, whatever. I got their book. I got the book. It took me an hour to read it. And it was mind-numbing. The same stuff over and over and blah, blah, blah, blah. And there was Freddie and Jim and John and blah, blah.

So, I thought, how do I make it interesting that people will want to read it? I have to have a storyline through it. And so, I started with 1899, the first dog, and then working through it, developing through it von Stephanitz's work, I went into a lot of German magazines, a lot of books, and found stories. For example, and this is what's filtered all the way through it to make it interesting. One story that comes to mind, a particular dog, the von Stephanitz wanted to be Seeger. But character was important at that, particularly important at that time. And so, he rang, and this is in the book. So, the story is, he rings the owner of the dog, tells him to bring the dog to his kennels in Grafrath, so he can assess the dog's character before the Seeger show. And if his character's up to it, he'll be the Seeger. So, the dog and the owner arrive. And so, this is the way the whole book is written. So, it's not just, here's the dog, he was the Seeger, here's his pedigree, blah, blah, next one. So, the dog arrives. Von Stephanitz, of course, is a cavalry captain, horseman. So, he has his riding area there. Von Stephanitz tells the owner to put the dog into a down position at the other end of the arena. Off the lead and walk away, Von Stephanitz gets on his horse. Rides the horse, charges the horse toward the dog. As the horse passes the dog, the dog jumped up and grabbed the horse by the neck. Von Stephanitz hit the dog on the head to make him drop off, and he did. And he said, perfect. Okay. And he made him the Seeger. Now, for today, of course, in this environment, people would be shocked by that. But if you go back to that period, you can understand it more, what the dogs were doing then. But the issue here, Ivan, I think, is more to do with, there's the story. Correct. As opposed to Fred Seeger, 1908, here's his photo, next. That's very different, isn't it? And so, in the beginning, I say that the way I want the book to be in that early part is like you're in a time machine. Sitting in that time machine, the wheels start spinning. And I wanted to write it as though you were sitting in the time machine, watching it all go by. That's how I wrote it. You did it. You really did it. Yeah. And then something I didn't think about, Ivan, was how would I grow and develop as a writer? I didn't think about that. It never occurred to me that Louis Donald would have a particular style and interest that Louis Donald doesn't even know yet. Correct. Never occurred to me. And this is what happened. And this had a big impact on the book that I think is very positive, Ivan.

So, I complete the von Stefanitz on the Rhine and the dogs came from different regions of Germany. The stuff we've all heard before. Schwabia, one with a soft ear, one with a curly tail, blah, blah. Then for me, and this now is me coming forward, my personality and character, which I didn't know. So, where did those dogs come from? Where did that Schwabian dog come from? And the Chiringian dog, where did they come from? So, I did research on that. Most of it in German. So, I had to get it translated. And that eventually, of course, goes back to early herding dogs in Germany, which we know about. I do all that. These are the main ones. And photos of them. And that's why there's, I think, 750 photographs. Then for me, it's, but where did they come from? So, they came from the Grey Wolf. Great. So, where did the Grey Wolf come from? Antarctic region and across the Bering Sea. When you could go across it into North America. And there, the Grey Wolf. Great. I do all that. Then in my head, so where did the Grey Wolves come from? And that's why the beginning of the chapter of breed development starts with a little tiny ferretty animal. Mm-hmm. Feverati. That was the first carnivore. Carnivore teeth. So, the book starts with the planet is in ice. The melt. Animals come forward. And the book starts. The beginning of the breed development is the first carnivore on planet Earth. And that worked all the way through, Ivan. Eyes. We've all got it. Eyes are almond-shaped, dark, blah, blah. I do that. But then I want to know, how does the eye work? What are the colours the dog can see? How does the eye work within the brain? And that is carried right through the whole book. It really is. And you know what? Like, I have a school for dog trainers. And I have books that I recommend and I have mandatory books. And your work is going into the mandatory, you must read this. Thank you. If you're going to be in any way a dog trainer or in any way doing anything with dogs on a higher level than just a hobby, this leverage internet scrolling and browsing, it has to be read. Yes. A few times. And going back when you need it. You can go back when you need it. And that's the important thing, that it can be used as a reference source. 100%. And, again, that leads me, because there's so many stories I could tell, including, incidentally, when you were saying that three or four times you almost gave up. I can't count how many times my brain was fried. Because after four years, I'll be writing something about the lungs, the heart, whatever, and think, I think I wrote about this three years ago, but I can't find it.

And it got to a point where I lost count of how many times I said to Gail and Wendy, I can't go on with it. It's killing me. And you would know this, anyone that writes a book, I say that my brain was applied to it from nine to five, six days a week for four years. It was 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Even now, even now, that's all I dream about, sleep about, think about, is the book. And how it could be improved. So the other part that comes to mind when you say how much value you see in it, Ivan, because my background is primarily show dogs, because in Australia we don't do IGP and so on. As you know, it's a problem here with the government. So to a fair extent, show oriented, because that is my area of expertise. But as the definitive German shepherd dog, everything has to be included. And so the beginning of the breed, all those sorts of things, no problem. Judging. I'm an SV judge. And as you say, at that time, the youngest one in the world. Yes. So judging, basic obedience. I was a training instructor. I could do that. And then I got to nutrition. But I'm not an expert in nutrition. So this was how it evolved, Ivan, and how I grew with it. I'm not an expert, but this is the definitive German shepherd dog. And if someone is going to read the chapter on nutrition, it's got to be right. And so I spoke to Wendy. And so the nutritionist, Sprad and Grange, she wrote the chapter on nutrition. And then that triggered further events. I've got to have genetics. I'm not a geneticist. And so a very good friend of mine was the late Dr. Malcolm Willis, who wrote his two books on genetics. And I contacted his widow, who I know well. And with her agreement, I took everything I needed from his two books dedicated to him. And that is the chapter on genetics. And then the next one was veterinary. It's got to be, it's got, the book's got to cover everything within reason on veterinary. So I contacted one of Australia's top veterinarians, Dr. Karen Hedberg. She wrote an excellent book on veterinary issues. And she allowed me to take everything I wanted from her book. And that is now in my book dedicated to her. So when it came to specialized things, then I used people that I consider to be the many people in the world. When I got to IGP, that was particularly difficult because I don't have any friends really in IGP. There's very little experience here. So I had to go overseas, including getting photographs. And so I went to Brian and Jarny in America. Yes. And he gave me his photographs.

And incidentally, through his recommendation, we sold about 150 books just through his recommendation. And so one of the things that evolved from that expertise in each area that I didn't expect, Ivan, me initially, it's most of the sales that go to show dog people. At this point, 80% of all sales have gone to IGP, obedience, service, police dog, family owners. Right. That is where most of the books are going. Yeah. I mean, it's for sure, you can tell, you really see it in the book that there is a lot of contribution from different experts on their own field. And it's the only way if, as you said, it's going to be the definitive. It cannot be any other way. And it's a, I mean, crazy, crazy project. And you accomplished it. And Brian, I mean, like you, I guess this was the cool thing about living in today's time where internet is available and we can get in touch with people that even we don't know. And yeah, I mean, Brian is also, I mean, the pictures of like all the illustrations, all the, just as you said, I mean, everything is beautiful about the book. There is, it's hard to say anything to criticize it. One of the difficult, most difficult things that evolved was that I pictured a dog's head on the cover. Typically, right? You're right. Can't have a full length dog because it doesn't work. It's a head. So because I've taken a lot of photos in Germany, thousands, all the VA dogs, VA bitches, I've got nearly all of them. Now I'm putting it on the cover. But when I actually go to look at the head, the head, even though it's a seager, it's got all these problems. You're finding something. You cannot think about it in that minute eye and with a critical eye until now it's going to feature on the cover. So the best photograph I had was a female, a really great shot. And I put that on the cover, did the artwork. And then I showed it to a few people, including, well, Gail and a few other German Shepherd dog judges. And the response was lovely, but the ears are a bit big. The eyes are a bit round. Bit of this, bit of that. And it's like, but that's, they've all got their problems. But Louis, this is the definitive German Shepherd dog. And no matter you put inside the cover, this is a photo of a real animal. People aren't going to read that. It's Louis Donald is saying, this is a great head. Look at its ears. Look at its eyes. Whatever. Look at its lips.

And so I concluded that what I needed to do was contract someone that I consider to be one of the leading artists, animal, dog artists in the world, to paint my ideal German Shepherd dog head. And so I contacted a lady in Canada, Colette Theriot, who's one of the top animal artists in the world. And I sent her 11 of the best German Shepherd dog heads that I'd personally photographed in Germany. Eight of those were Seegers and Segrins. And from that, the head that you see there is a collage of 11 of the best German dog heads that I could find. That is it. Incredible. Then, Ivan, of course, I get to the next bit where I've got to show an example of what I consider to be the ideal, as per the standard, German Shepherd dog in total. No perfect German Shepherd exists. And to be honest, in my opinion, we had German Shepherd dogs in Germany that were closer to the breed standard, more of them 20 years ago than we have today. So now I have to construct the ideal German Shepherd dog from the breed standard. Not what I like, not what you like. And so I put all that together and gave it to Colette. And she produced the painting, which is my painting of what I consider to be the breed standard's ideal German Shepherd dog. And that's in the book. How is it that the German Shepherd became the dog of the world at that time? What caused that? Because, I mean, again, as a Malinois breeder, I know Malinois, well, not Malinois, but the Belgian Shepherd Club was a little bit like maybe 15 years or whatever before the German Shepherd started, but somehow everybody from day one got so intrigued by the German Shepherd dog at the time. And it's still how it is. Yeah. That's a very good question. I think the basis of it, of the question, of the answer to the question, has to be if we go back to that early period when the breed was created, which was 1899 but 1900. And the breed, pedigree dogs had become very popular in England. And that is where pedigree dogs first started. So the first pedigree dog in the world started in England. Not surprisingly, it was a gun dog because gun dogs were so popular.

And they would have gun dog shows and then other breeds developed. And what kicked it along. So this is digressing a little bit. Then we'll go to Germany. Sure. What kicked along was when the dog fighting was very popular in England. And the government outlawed dog fights. And so all these people that had dogs that used to fight, or you could almost relate to dog shows, right? But they were fighting dogs. Yes. What do we do now? What are we going to do now? And so they said, well, how about we'll bring them all together on Friday night down at the local pub. And Freddie, who knows about dogs, he'll look at all our fighting dogs and say that if they had a fight, based on what he can see, which one he believes would win, gets first prize. And that's how it all started in England, really, opening out into a broader spectrum from dogs that were used for the gun, the dogs that were used for dog fights, developing and broadening out into that broader field. Then other countries took an interest in it, including Germany. So von Stephanitz, Captain von Stephanitz, who created the breed, as you know, he took all his initial information from England. So the pedigrees, how pedigrees were composed, bloodlines, how breeding was done, how to create a new breed. You had to do inbreeding, brother to sister. Yes, you had to close the genetic pool. He got all that information from England. So that, if you like, the first raindrop for the German shepherd dog started with a thought from Captain von Stephanitz, the cavalry captain, and his knowledge of what dogs were doing in England. That's how it started. So then he embarked on his own program to create his own breed. At that time, because dog sport, fighting and so on had been banned, that became a very popular pastime for a lot of people. In the beginning, only the wealthy. If you look at photographs from those early periods, Ivan, the women are actually in, look like, what, an hour dressing gowns. Yes, they're like, yes. The men in suits with hats. It was for the wealthy and the privileged. That's how it started. Von Stephanitz came from the privileged class. And in fact, von Stephanitz's book has a number of things in there that are quite racist. He was the privileged class. So von Stephanitz came into the creation of a breed when other breeds were being created and it was becoming very popular worldwide. So it wasn't just the German shepherd starting off in an embryonic state and growing and developing. That was happening with lots of other breeds at the same time.

Many, many of the breeds that we associate with German breeds all started at about the same time. Correct. Yes. So it wasn't just him. Other people were doing it as well with other breeds, boxers, bull, everything. The difference was that von Stephanitz had created, had a vision and created a breed of dog that had more use to human beings than a lot of the other dogs that were just specific for a task. The dog was chasing foxes, going down the holes, Dachshund, the burrow out a badger. His dog had broader application. Sheep dog, yes, but also a guarding dog. A guarding dog. Yep. And he was a clever guy. He was a clever guy because he started the breed in 1899, established the breed standard in 1900. By 1901, he's got an organisation that's clicking along and he's running it. And he was a dictator. He was a dictator. He took no prisoners. He was right. If he said he was right, he was right. Very German. Yep. But it gets results. Everybody get in line, we're pulling together. So he, by the third year, he had established his guidelines. He had an idea of what he was after because he had written the breed standard, its height and so on. Not as tight as it is now. It was more open. But in the fourth year, he was very astute and clever. He realised the only way that he could make his breed of dog, the super dog, a truly super dog and more popular, is if he could convince the police to take the dog on. It was a police dog. Initially, they knocked him back. They said, no, no, no. They had great Danes and things like that, I think. But he convinced them that they should try the German shepherd dog as a police dog. Hugely successful. And as you know, there was a period, even in England, 30 years ago, they didn't call them German shepherd dogs. They were called police dogs. Right. In America, police dogs. So that, if you like, von Stefanitz had fired his cannon and the shell was coming out at a good rate. When he decided it needed an extra boost, he brought the police into it and it took off. It took off from there. And because he was so good at organising, that was his skill because of his background as a cavalry captain, he was able to keep the organisation tight and see it grow. And, of course, eventually, to get back to your question or your comment at the beginning, that resulted in the German shepherd dog or, as it was in England in those days, Alsatian. And that's another story. Right.

Became the numerically the most popular dog in the world. But what you need to keep in mind, Ivan, is all the other breeds were moving along with it. German shepherd was the biggest one because it had more use. And it's more attractive because underneath it, I think human beings are fascinated by wild dogs and particularly the wolf. The primitive aspect of it. Yeah, it's like as a human being, and now we're getting into a pretty heavy area, right? But as a human being, and I've read material on this, that as a human being, we have inherently, at a subconscious level, Right, right, right. A huge respect for wolves. And the reason for that doesn't need explanation. What's surprising is that we could still have that respect after all these years coming from almost when we were apes. It's still there. And we're fascinated by it. And that had huge appeal. Von Stephanitz knew that. But he had a problem. And the problem was that whilst we, as human beings, have a regard and a fascination for wolves, correct ears, as opposed to passivity. Passive is floppy ears. So we're drawn to that. Yes. The intelligence it brings forward. We're fascinated by it. And the stories of wolves. So that's great. But what von Stephanitz learned very quickly was there's also a side of that that creates fear in people. They'll bite you. If you corner them, they'll attack you. So what he wanted, and this was a fascinating thing that I, a journey I went through in learning about his early days. And a lot of it came from material his daughter wrote, Hertha von Stephanitz, that isn't available generally. And it's all in German. That von Stephanitz wanted all those attractive elements, pricked ears, the things that a wolf had. But he knew that there are elements that human beings fear. Therefore, he has to remove them from the equation. And he did that. So if you have a look at the ears on a German shepherd, twice the size of a wolf. The eyes are dark. Breach standard says the eyes are dark, as dark as possible. A wolf has yellow eyes. Correct. So, if you have two German shepherd dogs walk up to you, Ivan. And one's got yellow eyes. And one's got dark eyes. And I say to you, you're a choice which one you pat. That's very true. There's no question about it. You won't be patting the one with the yellow eyes. Yes, that's just a... Because inherently within you. Yeah. Within you. Yeah, that's basic evolutionary psychology. That's exactly right. Exactly. Eagles have yellow eyes. All the predators have yellow eyes. So, von Stephan, let's learn very quickly. We don't want yellow eyes. Dark eyes. See, that's so interesting. You know why?

Because I, like, way back when I was still in Bulgaria and I got into the dogs and I got into, through the German shepherds. And eventually I became a judge. Not too many people. I, I just, like, a confirmation judge. And I had to learn confirmation. And it was, like, a, it wasn't a specific breed. It was, like, we had it back in Bulgaria. It was, like, covering pretty much the whole herding breeds as a, as a combination. And I wish somebody would talk about the eyes like this at the time. Because clearly we, we were, like, yeah, there is something that we don't like. But, but nobody ever was, like, why, why? The eyes, as you know, you think of a predator. Oh, yeah. Whether it's got wings or legs. It goes straight through you, into your soul. What are the color, what are the eye, what's the eye color of the devil? Yellow. Wow. Right? So, inherently, we have a fear of that, of that color. And so, he, he then said, the eyes need to be dark. And the ears, the larger ears, slightly higher set, gave her a softer impression to the dog. If you take the wolf from the front, they're very, very narrow in front. And so, he insisted that there was an opening so the legs were straight. That was a visual thing. The truth is, in, in, in its native environment with a wolf or any dog going through snow, the, the narrow chest. It's more efficient. It allows it to travel through the snow better. Yes. But, aesthetically, aesthetically, it looks better if they're straight. And so, he did some tweaking. And, and, and, so, eventually, because of seeing eye dogs, police dogs, von Stephanitz was a smart guy. What he knew was that what you have to do is have the dog used by people who provide a service to mankind. Give it a real outlet. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and so, in, in effect, in the fourth year, the German shepherd dog, in truth, almost became as much a police dog as a sheep herding dog. Where, where, where does it, and I know, I, I, I'm certain that I'm going to read it several times in the book. But I, I'm sure I'm not the only one that have that question. Where did it become the, the, was, was it like a, a definite moment in time when the preferences started to kind of differ? Of, of, of, you know, more, like. Working dog, show dog? Yeah. Is that what you mean? Yeah. Like my, I, I always, sometimes I, I would just kind of sit down and, and go through this in my head and trying to, to figure it out. And it's a, it's, it's gotta be very interesting situation because I, I am a trainer. So I, I appreciate very much training ability and temperament.

But temperament and training ability without proper structure is useless, as we know. And, and, at the same time, just as we were talking with the eyes, like, in humans, we like and we appreciate beauty. Yes. We, we do. Like it or not, we do. And it's not a bad thing. But how, what, what happened? Like how, how, where did, there has to be a moment in time, right? That, or, or was it a very gradual thing? The division? Yeah. Between working dog and show dog? Yeah. Yeah. I think, yes. And that is covered in the book. So if you, if you go back just to the beginning, for von Stefanitz, it's a sheep herding protection dog. More sheep herding than protection. That, and, and I often make this comment to people because I, I was about to say we know, but that's being presumptive. I know, I, I, I believe that if confirmation German shepherd dogs in, in the context of confirmation have become exaggerated, which they have. That's also applied in, in the working dog area. 100%. The exaggeration is character. You know. 100%. The, the, the, is the character. So both sides need winding back. Yeah. But that's inevitable, isn't it? That no matter who designs something, human nature is, the make is bigger and better. Right. Right. Right. Make it bigger and better. Make it bigger and bigger and bigger and better. And that's what's happened to the breed. So if we go back to the beginning, von Stefanitz saw the breed as a sheep herding protection dog in the context of protecting the sheep and the sheep herder. Not necessarily, not necessarily, not as a police dog, which it evolved to, but in the, in the beginning. It was a sheep herding, tending, tending, sheep herding dog with protective instincts. Wolves, to keep wolves away, thieves away. That was really it. That was really it. Right. That's what I was for. Then when he incorporated the police, which was a very clever marketing move, like stroke of genius. Like he was no, no deal. Like he's authoritarian, my way of the highway. He would have been dreadful to live with, I'm sure. But he, he, he, he, when he made that decision, whether he liked it or not, he was bringing in a change from a dog with inherent protective aptitude to one that was more developed for police work. So there was a trade off. So he's going to make the dog more popular. And I, I guess Ivan in numerical terms, he probably doubled the, the, the number of people who were interested in the breed. Yeah. The police dog, that's what took it to America and all over the world. Correct.

So it was a good move. But what's the connotation of a police dog for most people? You can go on all you would like about, I won't bite you unless I tell it to. Yeah. Tell someone else that, you know, I can tell the way he's looking at me. So there's no doubt. The irony was that his introduction of the police to make the dog more popular also created the problem of, started the division. Between show dog, working dog, including character. Yeah. Because very few people, even though I'm sure police dogs are fine inside with normal, you know, people coming and going. The perception for people is that a police dog, you've got to be careful. Yeah. It's very true. It's a perception, the change from this benign, lovely dog who loves sheep. Hey, you couldn't get any better than that. This dog loves sheep. To one that the police are using to apprehend villains and so on. So it changed the psyche a bit. Then, and that was very, very early on, within four years. Then, and this is in my book, in I think it was 1918, von Steffenitz stated at a meeting in Germany that he had become aware that there was a division being created within the breed between working dog owners and show dog owners. Wow. He, I think it was about 19. He already recognized that there was already a thing going on. Yeah. There's a division in the breed occurring. And he was very concerned about that. Mm-hmm. And he didn't go into a lot of detail in any of his writings, and I have a lot of writings that aren't in his book. He, he didn't go into a lot of detail about how he tried to bring them back together. But what he certainly said was, and what is, we know, up until, right up until his death, he couldn't bring them back together. He found it very upsetting. He was very distressed about it. But once the division started, no matter what he did, he couldn't repair it, and it's got wider ever since. So you could say the division effectively started noticeably by von Stephanitz around about 1920, and no one but no one has been able to bring it back. It's got wider. It's got wider. And when I say wider, if you think of, well, what are the two elements that cause you to decide where the gap is? Show dog is confirmation. Working dog is character, drives, those sorts of things. So a lot of the working dogs have become aggressive, too aggressive, aggressive. For sure. Any twist you want to put on it, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. A working dog person would find a nicer word than me. But we'll just say getting too aggressive. Show dogs, over-angulated with a curve of the back, becoming a caricature of themselves. The gap is now triple what it was in 1920.

And getting wider every day. True. And that has had an impact on the breed's popularity. Because today, a lot of people see the German shepherd dog, and now I'm talking about the show dog. Funny enough, if you're talking to someone in the street, they tend to relate to the show dog, don't they? Correct. Not the working dog. Correct. Yeah, it's a show dog. That for them, it's an unhealthy breed. Racist said, half dog, half frog. A bit over the top, but we know what he means. Professor Messler used that analogy, including a painting of a half dog, half frog and lemma. And we know that the dogs are becoming over-angulated. They're unsound behind. They're unsound behind. And their character. Their character, in my opinion, show dog character is also diminishing. As much as the other side is increasing in the context of aggression. Correct. So the divide is getting wider and wider and wider. That was the challenge for me, Ivan. I wanted to write a book that wasn't prejudicial, that wasn't judgmental, that saw everybody's side. Yeah. The dog. The dog. And I might say, Gail, Gail, can you just grab me my dog, the image? So the dog, Ivan, when I was writing the book and I got to the chapter of anatomy, I thought, wouldn't it be great if I could actually create my interpretation of the ideal German shepherd dog? Now, because the proportion's shorter and longer in the middle, in that central position, wouldn't it be great if I could get a painting done that was so good, it was lifelike? Like, the barless say, if you objectively, not with all your bias, if you stand back and read the breed standard and put all your bias aside, how your dog looks and how your friend's dog looks, all of that, what would the dog look like? No one has ever done that before. There are lots of paintings of dogs, but not with that brief. That is a big brief. That is, Ivan, a very expensive brief, by the way. And so, there it is. Yes, I saw this. Yes, that actually, yeah. There it is. Yeah. Yeah. So, what we need to do on both sides is come closer, bring the pendulum back closer to the centre. I'm not sure that in the show dog area in Germany that that's possible. Because I think that the people in Germany that are involved in the show scene, judges and successful exhibitors are so used to the style that they've got, which is exaggerated style. Right. It's not working dog style. It's show dog style.

They are so entrenched into that, in their mind, there is no going back. Yeah. Unless someone within the SV makes some very, very hard decisions, as von Stefanitz did. Mm-hmm. In about 1924 or 5, I think, the dogs were getting too big. So, you think of how this would go down today, Ivan. Von Stefanitz is there. He's got all these dogs that have been winning for years, and he's concerned they're getting too big. Some of the top winning dogs are 68, 69 centimetres. And 65 is the maximum. They're horses. But anatomically lovely. But they're horses. Yes. Von Stefanitz is putting them up too. So, von Stefanitz decides we have to bring the height down. In his mind, and I think rightfully, dog people don't get subtlety. Correct. Dog people need a sledgehammer right in the middle of their head, right between the eyes, whack. And if they're still blinking, give them another whack, then they get it. Subtlety goes nowhere. So, von Stefanitz, in that vein, decided at the next Seeger show, I'm not going to bring the dog back to middle height. I'm going to bring it back to the low height. To make point. And so, here you've got all these dogs coming in. Average size is 65, 66. Some are 68. Some are 69. Some of them are VA dogs from the previous year. Right. And he pulls a dog out that's 61.5 centimetres high. In that company, it would look like a dwarf. Right, right, right, right. And he made him see it. That's fascinating because this particular problem, it's a problem today too. Like controlling the height. This is an ongoing thing since I didn't know. Correct. And so, he knows subtlety, knows as it is now. This is what I hear all the time, Ivan. It takes time. Why don't you fix it? It takes time. What these senior people are saying is, I'm not going to do it. The bloke behind me can do it. I'll set the groundwork. I'll leave it to someone else. And so, nothing ever happens. And so, what von Stefanitz did created uproar. He was booed in the ring. He was booed in the ring. Interesting. All these, you imagine, half the VA dogs left the ring, walked out. There was uproar. But he fixed the problem of height. No one, no one is brave enough today to do that. It's a long-term plan. We'll work on it. The trouble is, Ivan, people become accustomed to it. Right. See? Right. You're growing up with a specific image. And that's normal. Right. What you see today, if there are 10 VA dogs in Germany, 80% of those people that are at that show have been around not much more than 10, 12 years, I suppose. The majority. And for them, that's normal.

So, when I come on in my book and lectures and say, this is the correct hind angulation, for the majority, it's under-angulated. Right. Yeah. And if the most senior judge in the SV says, it's not, then it's not. Yeah. Yeah. Who am I? Who am I, Ivan? Very true. That's so interesting. You know, like, I, again, I'm a Malinov breeder. I've been breeding them since 89. But, I started with German Shepherd, just like probably most people start with German Shepherds. And I, I bounce from, from the one side to the other side. I told you I had a Uram daughter. Then, I actually, I don't know, was it 2007 or 8, I, I did show, a show shepherd that I got from Brazil at the WSV in IGP-3. And I, I love that dog. And he goes all the way, I mean, he was from Brazil, so there was, you know, I mean, but if, if any dog of significance, there would be, what was his name? Like, Valium Voron Arminius or some, something that, again, it wasn't, but, but clearly, like, when you look at him, it was a show dog. Like, then I had a dog, I had a, in the 90s, I had a ticker hook. And it was, I don't know, I mean, I'm sure you, you know, way more, again, like, even with Malinov lines, I, I am not that great with my mind. But it was a Yoshi and Troll and, like, it was, it was a very interesting working dog line. And, and, and, ended up having back problems, which in the 90s started to become, we started to see more and more of it. But, with the Malinov, something interesting happened in Germany. They, they had that, they decided to have a Kiorun, a breed test, right, for everybody that doesn't know what. And they started to select more and more character and temperament. Within very short time, the Malinov became very different in Germany than, than, than, what, what Belgian dogs look like. They become very, how to say it, like a, thin, thin nerves, like very reactive, very, uh, impulsive. Like, not, you know, again, like when you do that pendulum, when you breathe for, for beauty and confirmation, and you, you're pushing it too far, you definitely, as you said, you can push it. And they did push it that far to where character became very twitchy. And, pretty, you know, it took them probably 10, 15 years. And now they're trying to, they realize that that's, there has to be, we have to come back to something. We cannot go and go and go. It's going to break. There is, will be a break point. But what was interesting, and I think this is a very cool thing about dogs, and in, in most of the, like the lifespan of the dog, we all wish that it's longer, right?

But at the same time, because it's so short, we can, within future generations, we can, we can set it back. We can reset it, if we want to. If we collectively come to some decision, it is possible. But as you said, it's not a, somehow it's a very difficult thing because, yeah. Yeah, it is, it is difficult. And I think if I look back, definitely one of the problems is that the, the, the, the, the primary discipline for maintaining the breed in terms of anatomy, character, fertility. Right, and longevity. Fertility, fertility is going down. Yes. Now. And longevity as well. It's important. It's super important. Correct, correct. Uh, the, diseases are developing. And a big part of that is because the breeding is too close. Mm-hmm. If you look at the last Sega show, I think the VA 1, 2, 3, 4 were, uh, all very, very closely related. Mm-hmm. At a time when we should be opening the breed out. But hasn't this been a problem throughout? Like even, and again, you, you, you, you go way back. Like I, where I started with, you know, with, uh, I mean, Kwandu, Von Arminius and, and Uran. Those were really like the, truly like my time when I was like, wow, this is crazy. And they bought one back to back in the 80s, the, the Ziger shows. But then before them, there were the, um, uh, what was it? The, the, the Kwandu, Von Arminius and, and no, gosh, I'm so bad with the names. But there were two other dogs, the Winner out dogs, right? Before them, like in the 70s, right? And already then, the, the, the, as we started to focus on, on very closeness. Yeah. Because I, I, we often talk about line breeding versus inbreeding. And really it's all inbreeding. It's just the Greek. But it always, it's, it, it sounds better if you say line breeding. There's something nicer about that, right? Otherwise it's a bit incestuous. Right. It starts to think of like the, the, the Kings and the, the, yeah. Exactly. Because we'll end up with three noses. Mutants. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yeah. The, the, the person that was responsible for legitimizing, bringing the bloodlines too narrow was him and Martin. Martin. Right. Absolutely. See, if you, if you go prior to him, beginning Peter Messler was there for a little bit and a couple of others, I think. I think of Dr. Rommel. And Dr. Rommel was like the old guard, bunk and so on. Everything's long-term vision. And the von Stephanet's principles maintained, which included having open, some open breeding. So you had Mutz, Kando, Quanto, Marco. And that's what, that's like early seventies, right? Or, or where is that? Correct. Yeah. Correct.

Exactly. I think 72 was Marco's time. Yeah. And I, and I had dinner three times with Dr. Rommel and talking to him about what he was doing and the bloodlines because I was the president of the German Shepherd Dog Council. Then I was its president for 20 years. And so he gave me some insight into it and he recognized, he said to me, he recognized that Marco, in terms of show dog, and, and it's the wrong word, but glamorous dog, Marco was the least producer of the, the, the, that attractive dog. He didn't catch the eye. He represented, he represented the working line. Right. Therefore he needed to be maintained. So from what I know in talking to Dr. Rommel, he recognized that Quanto and Kanto, not so much Mutz, Quanto and Kanto were producing attractive dogs. Attractive in that most German Shepherd Dog enthusiasts are fascinated by the length of the ground cover. Of course. In their mind, there is no limit. But in truth, there is a limit where you go to a certain distance beyond that. It's counterproductive. Correct. But for most people, if they could take off and not touch the ground for 50 metres, that'd be just brilliant. So the thing that pleased everyone with, particularly Kanto, was that he had some stretch in the body and he connected well with Quanto, gave the colour and a bit of strength, but gave good ground cover. With Rommel, Rommel saw that as needed, but he also saw the working requirement as the foundation, the rock to it all. And that's why he had Marco there. When Herman took over, in the discussions I had with Herman, he said that he respected Rommel and wanted to retain Marco within the mix as much out of respect as anything else. And he told me that's why he intended keeping Marco within the mix. In my opinion, he had no intention of doing that at all. What he was telling me is what you would like to hear. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So for him, Marco and everything he produced, where for Rommel, that was important in grounding the breed and keeping it tight to its roots of being a working dog. Herman didn't have the same empathy there. And with Walter, who was very much the show dog, sitting on his shoulder, what happened was inevitable. The first Seager show that Herman did on his own, and I've got it in the book, and I think from memory in the top 14 VAs,

13 were either direct, indirect, or carrying the lines of Quanto and Kanto. Yeah, sure. Yeah, yeah. Herman brought the breed virtually, totally, to a stall. To a stall. To two dogs. Yeah, yes, yes. To two dogs. And that is where the biggest change in the road for the breed occurred was with Herman. Having said that, Herman and Walter did have the working attributes of the breed at heart. And even though they brought in some degree of exaggeration is the wrong word, a little bit of greed of showmanship, they still respected the need for the dog to be a working dog. So people, I find too many people today, Blaine, Walter and Herman on allowing the breed to become exaggerated and over-angulated in the hindquarter. But that isn't fair. People did that after Herman's period. What do you think about the idea of the universal, Ziger? Like the idea is right, but it's been for a while now. Yeah. It's still, in my opinion, as much as, again, I'm not all invested in, but it's still, after so long, it seems like it's a good idea, it's a good attempt, but somehow it cannot get the important sides, the one of the extremes. It doesn't want, it cannot bring them still somehow together. Yeah. I agree with that. And if you go back to something that you often hear, Ivan, is they should mate, and we know what we mean when we say working dog, show dog, right? Right. Should mate, working dog, show dogs. And that'll fix the problem. It's a bit like the ideal colour is grey. So we're saying grey is the ideal colour. I'm not talking about, I'm talking generic grey, not dog grey. Grey is the ideal. Problem we've got is they're all, half of them are black and half of them are white. Right. So what we need to do is put those two together and we'll get grey. The problem with that in the context of analogy to the breed, and Professor Messler in Lema in Spain asked me during a coffee break, Louie, what do you think about the idea of working dogs, mating them to show dogs, and that's how we're going to fix the problem? What do you think of that? Because you often hear it, right? And I said, look, my opinion on that is this, that you could do that in a programmed way, not just iggly piggly, but in a sensible way. So as a kennel, it's your kennel Ivan. So you're going to do it.

Right. You're going to get some grey ones, if you like working grey, some show dog black and gulls. Black and tans don't exist in the ring anymore. Greys are almost gone in the show ring. So gold, black, rich black and gold, sometimes rottweiler. Yeah. Coloured. Yeah. Yeah. Make them together and problem's fixed. And I said to Professor Messler that you could do that and you could end up with the universal dog and it would take you between 50 and 60 years. Who's going to be around in 60 years? And tell me someone that would be prepared to do that now, knowing they're not going to be here in 50 to 60 years. Correct. And if you're actively engaged in the show ring, you're not going to be interested in doing it for five seconds, never 50 years. And the same in the working area. So my approach, which is in the book, is respect that there is a breed standard. Within the breed standard, there is latitude. Whilst the breed standard is based on the ideal dog, and that painting is based on that, an arm's length. It's not painting of the dog I like in that context. It's they're the specifications. Yeah. And if you don't like it, you don't like the specification. So it's not my ideal. It's the breed standard's ideal created into a painting. So if you look at what IGP dogs do, and you look at what show dogs do, they're two very different things. Yeah. For a start, today, unlike the days of past, show dogs, two, three times a lap around the ring. For a dog, that's like walking from the back door to the front door. And so the need for athleticism, fitness, it just doesn't exist anymore. Right. But nor is it really needed in truth. Like one of the most important things in a working dog is muscle and muscle development. And the only way that you can assess muscle size and firmness and development is to feel it. And we don't touch the dog in the show ring. And there's no way you can see muscle development through hair, particularly with a long coat. It's not possible. Where that stems from, Ivan, is in the days of von Stephanitz and Dr. Funk, the dogs walked, trotted, had a drink, walked, trotted, had a drink, run, trot, walk, guff, six, seven hours over two days. You didn't need to touch them. You knew they were fitter to work. Now, we should be feeling them, but we don't because that isn't what we do in our rarefied domain of being a specialist judge. However, the principle still applies that it's horses for courses. And so in my mind,

the breed standard has sufficient latitude to allow you to have a German Shepherd dog that is breed compliant, that is built to be a super, super IGP working dog, service dog. Still within the breed standard confines. At the same time, have a show dog that is glamorous, that does have some furnishings, that is attractive, and is still within the confines of the breed standard. So for me, I think this whole thing of them and us, you and me, your dog isn't a nice-looking dog. Because it's not a show dog. Correct. Your dog couldn't do IGP because it's over-angulated, it's too heavy, it's too soft in character. And that's a problem with show dogs. If the working dog character has started to inch up a little bit in the aggression area, show dogs have gone the other way too, neurotic. You know, owner leaves them and they're screaming and, you know, come back. So to me, I believe that there is room and it is appropriate to have, if you like, a dog that has the character and the structure that is highly suitable for working in all its principles and likewise for showing. I believe it. The problem is, at the moment, particularly with the show dogs, they're getting further and further away from the ability to work. Yeah. That's, they're the facts. I, you know, like I, I'll share some of my experience throughout the years because as a trainer, I, I always, especially when it's time for a breed survey or, you know, they have to pass and, and I get access and people come and try, they, they need some help with the, with the protection aspect and some training. So, and I know I'm not the only one in the world. I know that they are, show German shepherds that still have very nice character in there. Yes. Yes. Like very nice character with, with the dominance, the enough dominance that you need that everything and, and most of the time, like when, of course, there is the ones that are just struggling that you cannot convince them that this is even of interest to them to, to do this kind of activity. But there's still plenty of show dogs that, that it's in there. No question. Like I, I experience it every year when it's, before it's time to do some, uh, big, uh, show and, and they need to get the dogs ready. Um, it, so, so, there's so many different components that are factors and important factors and, like the, the people that are right now into the, more of the confirmation involved, they're not necessarily dog trainers. They're not interested in that. and on the other side, the other, the other way around. And with the show dogs, like I, every time, like every year, there is a dog that I'm like, I, I can make that dog a superstar because it has the, the,

it has the character. Yes. But, my very first question is, can he jump one meter or is he gonna struggle there? And, in some ways, this, like if, if that simple criteria gets emphasized somehow, along with, with, as we said, okay, we're floating in the ring and it looks beautiful and the angulation, but, but we also put some more emphasis instead of not paying attention to it, but, can it just jump freely? Yeah. This can be a game changer. Yeah, look, I, something, that, when we were in Lamar, we were talking about this issue of overangulation of the hindquarter and incidentally, we now have some dogs that are overangulated in the forequarter too because what happens if you work on the hindquarter and get to a point where it can't, you can't make it any more angulated because it can't walk. Right, right. Eventually, then you've got to go to the front and make it the same and that's happening with some dogs. But, the overangulation in the hindquarter and the impediment to dogs jumping because of that, we were talking about that in Lamar and Margaret Van Dawson made a comment that I think we all agree that she's seen some dogs that are so deep behind in the show ring and winning and they go to the dais and they can't jump up onto the dais. Right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, I think actually what you've led me into is, again, it was Lamar and Lamar was great. Like, I wish they did that every year, honestly. We, we were talking on another occasion, just judges around the coffee table about dogs that had the characteristics that we're talking about. And it started off with Professor Messler, as I say, saying to me, what do you think about, let's mate, if you like, the grey ones with the black and red ones and then we'll have the ideal that, and I said, 50, 60 years, who's going to do that? And why would you? Why would you? Why would you bother? Yep. And then in another conversation, someone said to me, so, what, what do you think should happen? And I said, if it was me coming from the show dog side of the equation, because in the show dog side of the equation, you're more preoccupied with structure than you are in the working side. So, really, that's the area where the conversation probably belongs. And I said, you don't have to think about a solution whereby we have to make some grey dogs, the black and red ones, to get where we want to go, because that would take 50, 60 years. The solution is right in front of your eyes. And now we're getting close to the bone and the really sensitive issues that most people don't want to talk about. there are German Shepherd show dogs that were in the last

Seager show, the Seager show before it. They're everywhere that are very, very close to being breed standard compliant. They're not over-angulated in the hindquarter. They're not curved in the back. They have strong outgoing character. But, because the trend is toward exaggeration, deep hindangulation, tibia that's double the length it should be, a curved back, described as straight. These dogs, if you say to someone in that environment, what about that dog? He's under-angulated and his back's too straight. So, they're there. They're there. What it requires is someone at the top of the tree, and the top of the tree in the German shepherd dog show dog world is the person, the judges, the open dog class at the German Seager show, beginning and end, and the majority follows suit. dog dog fanciers will understand that. Yep. It's for that person to say, there they are, and those dogs, they're there. but in today's show ring, they're almost out of sight, because for most people, Ivan, it's like someone said to me, so long ago, I've forgotten, but it's very true. can you tell me the name of the Seager from a given year? And anyone that's really into it, they can tell you. For sure. Marco, not, almost said Quanto, but he didn't, but Iran, blah, blah, right? Rattle them off. Tell me who the reserve Seager was. Right. Right. Tell me who was VA3. Right, and you're so right, it can be actually, it really, that process can be speed up. Yes. No idea. So, when you move beyond VA, if there were 5,000 people at the Seager show, and there were 10 VA docs, and five, six years later, you went to those 5,000 people and said, who was VA1, 2, and 3, they couldn't tell you. They'd be struggling to tell you who was VA2. So, these dogs I'm talking about, that are there, and I think of one, Digger, the Middle Vice, in my mind, is a good example. They're there, but you can't have dogs that are exaggerated in form, and have dogs like that in amongst them, because you'd make a fool of yourself. So, they're there, but it means a big switch. In my opinion, there is too much investment for that to occur. If we think of VA dogs, that, in my opinion, fit the bill, not from recent times, and I won't go there, I'll go back a bit. I think of Willow, Willow Clostamore. I remember some people in Asia ringing me and saying, Louis, we want to set up a kennel in Asia, but we

want it to be based on working dog attributes. We want the shape, we want a bit of glamour, but working dog attributes. We want you to go to Germany and buy and we want a VA dog because that's important to the guy with the money. Who's the dog? And I said, Willow Clostamore. But in today's ring, he'd be considered to be under angulated in the time quarter and his time quarter was spot on. So I'm not sure how the SV turns the ship around. The other problem there too, Ivan, is that unless the president of the SV judges the open dog class, the clout the hammer has is reduced markedly. You know what is interesting, and again, I really don't think I'm the only one. But being fully invested in the sport world, I know that I just know that I can make a lot of money. It's like when the money, and of course money is a thing, we cannot disregard that. It will be stupid if we disregard it, as you said. But the money are there. Like if somebody gives me that even if it's not V10, even if it's SG dog that comes from good line that has a potential to be agile and has enough temperament and that dog like where I'm going with this is I'm certain 100% that they're trainers like me. I'm not the only one that are willing to take a beautiful German shepherd coming from a shown line to the world championship in working dog and do really really really good. And when that happens there is money there. There's no question about it. And you're right. Whether we like it or not, money is what drives particularly in Albury. know, you're talking about huge volumes of money. But you're right. Yeah, exactly what you say is correct. But then it comes down to who's going to do that, who's going to make the call. people. But yeah, but I think it's important I say that for me, if someone says, and they do, so what do you think? How do we get to that midline, make working dog with show dog, etc. My opinion on that is no. The road is too long. I agree. I agree 100%. too long. But personally for me, because of my show dog background, that I'm saying there are plenty of dogs in Germany that are beautiful dogs, breed standard compliant, not under angulated, have a straight back, have strong character, within size, within size, that could offer the breed a way forward. Yeah, a way forward. I'm not sure that the will exists to do that. I think people don't believe it's possible. Well, that's my take. Yeah, I think you're right. I think it takes two dogs to show that it's possible and then watch out.

Exactly. And the only way that anything happens, as you know, Ivan, is it has to be someone that's got influence. Correct. And historically, in the show dog sport, the people of influence, not all, but too many, their motivation is ego money. Today. Yeah. Exactly. So why would I do that? Why would I do that? That's the problem. But if we come back to my book, Ivan, because I think the things that we're talking about here was their personal opinions, your personal opinion, my personal opinion, opinion, and 50 people that have another opinion, I think that if I come back to my book, my approach, which is one of respect for all the areas that the breed's involved in, respect for individuals, individuals, but at the same time, the breed's standard must be the core driver for construction and character, my book is based on that. And I think that's why it's been successful. because, you know, I couldn't tell you, Ivan, how many, and I get feedback from everyone that buys my book because I process them and it's become a very personal thing. I've lost count of young girls, young boys, 17, 18, 19, that have got one German shepherd dog. I think in every case, their interest is IGP or agility that have got my book. And the reason why I think the book has been so successful, and the first edition, as you know, was sold out in 16 weeks to 69 countries, is because it's not driven by my personal bias. Let's go back. No, okay, before we, I have something else, hopefully we have a little more time, but just to kind of sidetrack a little, when I breed malice, and I am to pick a puppy for myself, in my early years, I would be always like, oh, this is the one, because it just stands out, and it's doing things, and it's whatever. It took a lot of time as a breeder to realize that if you want to do it right, you cannot go extreme, and especially like now, if I'm selecting a dog for myself, and I have my best friend wants to get a dog from me, and I'm like, yeah, come and pick your dog, I know which one you're going to pick, you're going to pick that one, because it's just going to pop in your eyes, and you cannot get your eyes away, but I like the one in the middle, and it's very much the same, but from the working aspect, you know, like there is this beauty about the middle. Yeah, I think one of the interesting things I found, I had someone who is heavily involved in IGP, seriously involved, and I invited her, I was going to say that person, you're already giving away her, to come to a confirmation show, and she did, and we're watching the dogs going around, and she made a comment to me, their bones are all so big,

and I said, oh, look, to me, nice bone, if I have an issue, it's fine bone, but strange one, I said, oh, so, I think it's all right, why do you say, well, they're just too big, I said, so, when you're picking a puppy in your litter, what do you look for in bone? She said, I prefer finer bone because they're faster, functionality. That may not apply to anybody else, but it was really interesting, it was interesting to hear that, so, in a way, Ivan, I think, that is why I came to the conclusion of it's horses for courses, that, whilst it would be wonderful to have the universal dog that everyone agrees on, I think the reality is that when you actually get down into it and look at what people want in those two specific areas, and we're just talking IGP and show now, not service or avalanche or whatever, that there are differences that are understandable, that are well within the confines of the breed standard, but each side needs to respect and understand why that preference, instead of at the moment, it's just, you don't know what you're talking about. It's like, it's a dislike, yes. Yeah, that's very unfortunate. It's the wrong way. Correct, and again, Ivan, I think that's why I wanted my book to be open in that regard, and of course, I honestly, I would never have dreamed that three-quarters of my book sales would go to working dog service obedience enthusiast, not in my wildest dreams, but part of it is because it's at arm's length, there is no bias by me, and yeah, not correct, I mean, again, you cover German dogs, which again, like I was in the 80s, I was still in Eastern Europe, like I still have pictures with these German shepherds, you know, like, you know, and of course, there is the bias and the nostalgia that I think they were phenomenal dogs at the time, who knows if they were or not, but a lot of mistakes happened with the breed, right, like that was a, I experienced that when the wall came down and it could have been done in a much smarter way, how we integrate, and that didn't happen, that just kind of, we just lost it, and eventually, even now, even today, I would hear, well, my dog is DDR lines, it's like, what are you talking about, like, this is, this is pointless to talk about it right now, unfortunate, but it's pointless. like, it's got to the point now, it's almost like, my great, great, great, grandfather was an ape, you know, it's, and again, in that DDR section, when you get to reading the end part, I make the point that there are no more DDR dogs, the blood lines from the period exist, and you can go back to that period, but there are

no more DDR registrations, so they don't exist, but what is important is what occurred during that period, and its impact on the dogs, and that's why, again, if I get back to what I said to you in the very beginning, of how the book evolved, Ivan, where I'd address something, and then that would lead to the question, but what about before that, the same year, so I finished off the typical breed, 1899 to 2022, Germany, and when I was two-thirds away through it, it occurred to me something I didn't know, that, okay, so these are the bloodlines that impacted on the DDR dogs, these are the dogs that had an impact in the east, and these are the dogs that then had an impact on colour even, and working dogs going forward, so like everything in the book, like with the eyes, it's brown, why brown? Why not yellow? Yes, yes. A wolf's eyes are brown, so why not, why not are the eyes brown? And incidentally on that, because as human beings, we're not scared of brown eyes, but we're scared of light eyes, scared of yellow eyes. Right. So, with that, the same issue applied, I have to write about the DDR, and so I did, and I got a lot of material from a lot of people that helped me with that. And so there's that whole section on the DDR, and a whole chapter on working dogs. It is very, very interesting, and actually very encouraging that the book is selling to not a specific, narrow group of people. That's very encouraging. It is, and we're only talking small numbers Ivan, but I think really important, particularly in that overangulation has created a problem, misunderstanding at the general public level, at the veterinarian level, that they believe the instability is hip dysplasia. so lots of people with young animals go to the vet because they're wobbling, and the vet says, hip dysplasia, put it down. Yeah, yeah, I've experienced this. Give it some $10,000 titanium hips. what's pleasing for me is that we have sold almost 20 books to veterinarians. That's really important, significant. yeah, I mean, I think, like I know that I think I'm certain that what you did, it's a amazing contribution, and there is a hope because of books like this, and because of, you know, like, you need the young people, and I'm glad that they're buying the book, and I'm glad that they're getting excited, and they're getting educated, because you have to, you, it's very difficult as a human not to take sides, and not to just, and to understand sides, before you try to see where

it can go. Yeah, you're absolutely right, you're absolutely right, and, you know, even when I started writing the book, I was conscious of people would say, why is he writing about working dogs, IGP dogs, what does he know? And I saw, some comments from America, people saying that. Incidentally, 73% of all book sales now go to America. I love it. The least number of sales... Hopefully that podcast helps more, because, as I say, that this is a... Yeah, I... Yeah. Yeah. And in talking about the, you know, the well receiving of the book, as you can imagine, when I... One of the things, to be honest, one of the things that was always in my mind, so Professor Messler, President of the SV, I don't know if you know, I was a WSV Continental Director, and he sacked me, because I was critical of some aspects of what the SV were doing. So, he sacked me. We didn't speak for five years. Yeah. Dot world, right? Then he got my book, and he rang me, and said, I've got your book, and I'd like us to be friends again, and we become very good friends. Beautiful. We speak weekly now, and it's really nice. So, when we're in Leoma, I knew that he was happy with the book. My concern was that he may be offended by some of the things I've said in there, in regard to the management of the breed by the SV. Correct. Which included a period under him. So, it was like, I don't know how this is going to go. He loved the book. He loved the book, and the frankness of the book, and the importance of the book, and that it was written at arm's length, not with a bias. Yes. So, when we're in Leoma, you can imagine, Ivan, I know he likes the book, but he hasn't said too much to me. So, Leoma went for five days, and I gave three lectures, the importance of the breed standard and the long coats. And on the last day, Professor Messler, who had then been president eight years, got up to summarize the five days. and I was in the front row, and I didn't know what to expect, and we had a giant screen, four metres high, and Professor Messler got up with his microphone, and up on the screen came the photo of the front page of the first von Stephanitz book, and my book. Wow. And I was looking at it, like, what's he going to say? And you can imagine for me, well, I can't say this young boy in Australia, this old man in Australia now, and he said, for the last 100 years, we had the von Stephanitz Testament and the Bible for the breed. And from today going forward for the next period, the New Testament is Louis Donald's book, The Definitive German Shepherd Dog. Maybe 300 people sitting there, 70 breed judges. Can you imagine, Ivan, how wonderful that was? I love it. Cheers to that. That says it all, doesn't it? Yes, it does. Yes, it does. It really does. There is hope. There is.

And I get a lot of very positive feedback on my book. What I see on Facebook more and more, which is wonderful, is I like the German Shepherd Dogs that Louis Donald likes. And in a way, if we take the division, Louis Donald likes German Shepherd Dogs that reflect the breed standard. Yes. You don't like the breed standard, how can you like a German Shepherd dog? I've taken one of the world's leading dog artists and painted my interpretation of the breed standard, which you saw. That's it. I like the dog because it reflects the standard, but it's the breed standard, blueprint that created that dog and so many people, particularly young people. I like Louis Donald's dog. And that's a wonderful thing. And all it is, if you look at it, isn't it, Ivan, it's sort of the mid-ground, isn't it? It's a tweak from both sides. Yes, and I have to comment on this because that's really kind of how I stumbled on, it was on your Facebook and all of a sudden I'm like, okay, I need to see the next post because we're talking interesting stuff here, you got my attention and not just my attention. And these kind of conversations are so needed and there is the educational part, but it's an open conversation and it's very good and that's how it all came about. And eventually I was like, man, I didn't even know where you are. So at one point I remember I texted Vadim, I'm like, where's Louis at? Like, I need to talk to this, like, there is no way I don't, I have to talk to him. And that's kind of how it all rolled in. But, but that's to say, you know, like, there is something about social media. There is the good and there is the bad. But, there is a lot of good and, and like, I encourage you to keep going with, with what you're doing there because it, it gets attention and it's important. It's important. That's been a big learning curve for me. When I first started putting things up on Facebook, people came to me and said, you shouldn't do that. It's bad for the breed's image. You're saying anything bad about the breed, you're damaging the breed, et cetera. So, it was a big learning curve for me. And, then I got to the stage where I realized that there are times when I want to convey a message and there is no getting away from the fact that I'm criticizing some aspect of the dog or worse, if I use a dog as an example. Specific name. Yes, that's a big, yeah. very, very hard, Ivan, really hard. Like this morning, if you go on my Facebook, I've got a head of a dog. I put up a grey head the other day and so many likes, a beautiful grey dog. And this morning, I put up a profile of a dog showing that if the dogs get too big, generally, the head gets big with it. Correct. And dogs that have big heads

have big loose lips. Yes. Comes with the territory. Yes. So I put the dog up. This is... And on top of that, the endurance goes out. Now, talking from a trainer. Yes. Correct. Correct. So big, loose lips. That's all I wanted to demonstrate. When dogs get too big, their heads proportionally get big. and when canine heads get big, they get lippy and jowly, right, saliva and so on. That's all I wanted to demonstrate why getting too big is bad. Someone immediately comes in and says, oh, I know that dog. That's Fred. Right. Right? And this is like a quite important dog. And I went back, deleted it, and sent him a message. And I said, this is a generic comment. Very true. If you mention the dog, the whole point of my post is lost. Very true. And everybody's in there criticizing. How could you do that? Etc. So, it's a delicate, delicate edge at some points. I know. I know this firsthand because when we it is very much exactly the same on the sport and the working dog world. Because, you know, if we're talking about a certain training technique or a certain and you have to show an example, if you don't show an example, you cannot bring the point home. But when you do that, now it becomes personal. And we need to somehow find a way how we can talk to each other. Like, we really need to talk to each other. And you'll notice, Ivan, that if you were to step back and have a quick spin of my Facebook posts over the last 10 years, something you notice is more drawings coming in. but that's because of my friend Linda Shaw that we developed a lot of drawings between us. So, what I'm doing now to take that away is using more drawings. And so, yeah, I think it's a smarter way. Yeah, but there are some times when you can't. It is what it is. Like this dog. Correct. You know, the lips of the lip because it was eating the pigment. Correct. Because what happens, Ivan, a lot with dogs when they have really jowly lips and a lot of saliva, they start the, it impacts on the pigment. Oh, and not just that. It will, like all that saliva is going to start creating hot spots. It's going to mess up the gums. It's going to, it opens the door to quite a few health issues. Of course. Of course. So what is your, like I'm curious now, I know you, you are retired from judging. What is your position? How are you involved in the German shepherd world besides what you do on Facebook and of course the book and everything? Yep. With regard to the judging, I was. You are retired judge or no, I'm not sure. Okay, I was going to clarify. So I was in the first instance ANKC, Australian Control Judge. In the first instance, that judging license is recognized automatically by the

FCI and the VDH. Yeah? To be a foreign list SV judge, and I did seven exams, now they only do three or four. I did seven. Part of the criteria for acceptance is you've got to be your country of origin licensed by your kennel control. then you do that. So because Germany retires you at 70, which is ridiculous. Yes. I mean, I can see it that like when people lived in the 40s and 50s, things change now. It shouldn't be. Exactly. Because that rule, that rule goes back about 30 years. Like old age was 50 then. So my license was revoked, terminated, whatever. Oh, so it wasn't you deciding to back off. It was just by the rules. I got a letter. Dear Louis, you've been wonderful. Congratulations. Thank you, years of service. No watch, no watch, no gold watch, just a little letter. So that was me, gone. But I'm still, ANKC, FCI, VDH, recognized judge. Okay. So I continue judging. Like next week, I'm judging in India. Okay. And getting a breed lecture in India. So I continue judging. That's awesome, because you need to go out. Until I decide I don't want to judge anymore. I'm also a breed surveyor. Right. So I do breed surveys. Yeah, so I'm actively engaged. Very good. I'm glad to hear this, because one way or another, the people that are judges, being in the working dog, being in the show ring, those are the people that can, those are the people that everybody is paying attention to, that they can very quickly bring in a very intelligent way where we are going. look, where I, in Lama, going back to Lama again, I got up and spoke about how disappointed I am in the SV having a 70-year ruling. And I pointed out that I gave three breed lectures more than anyone else. I've just written a book that Professor Messler has said is the new von Stefanitz book. here I am talking to you now. I'm not tired. I didn't get forgetful. So I just said I was disappointed in that rule. I regret or I'm disappointed for the breed that there are so many people in Germany who, unlike me, don't have an FCI license to fall back on and they're finished. And you know, Ivan, the saddest thing I ever saw in regard for this, I was a very good friend of a German judge who was very active, actually, in IGP, Rolf Fulzer. And Rolf, I think his forte was tracking. I think it was tracking, Rolf Fulzer. He was vice president of the SV once. He and I were very good friends. I stayed with him many, many times. And so we were there, Gail and I were there on one occasion and we're having dinner, he and his wife, Gail and I, and he started to talk. He didn't

speak very good English. His wife spoke no English, but I speak a little Deutsch. sure. He started to cry. And what's going on? Settle down. And I, if you speak Lung Psalm, I can understand what you're saying. What it was, he said to me, I've turned 70. I've taken my license away from me. This has been my whole life. I no longer have a life ahead of me. And tears running down his face, wiping his nose. It was dreadful. Now, I've spoken to some people about that in Germany, younger judges. Their response, oh, he had his day. You know, he had his day, now it's our chance. And there was no, absolutely no empathy for this man. What I saw, though, is for some people, Ivan, it's a big deal for them, a big deal. But there it is, there's the rule. But thankfully, I judge until the day I say I no longer want to judge. And the safety gap, the safety gap there is, if you don't see yourself, that you should no longer be judging because you're physically and or mentally capable of it, the exhibitors will tell you they won't come to the show. For sure. Yeah, I mean, age at this point in time should not be a factor. I agree. No question. There are some people I know that are 40, should give it away. Right. Right. No, no, no kidding. No kidding. What is the deal with, now that we mentioned FCI and WSV and SV and that there is always, there is always this tension and there is always this confrontations and there is always somebody pulling the rug and I get how, I really get it. Why is that? But what is your take on this stuff? Like there is, there is something about being able to stand your ground. Like for example, I will give you my, like I, I'm extremely disappointed with the utility working dog commission of FCI because like right now I don't know if you, I'm sure you are aware Austria is about to ban any protection sports. Actually, I was talking to Professor Messler last night about that. He told me last night. Yeah. So, so when you, when, when we have these people that we have elected to, to be our, they, they represent us and, and we expect that they will, they will stand out for us and educate and explain why this is important and, and, and everything, but they, yeah, they, they kind of, they, I, I, I, I'm trying to find a nicer way to say it, but their hearts are not there. They don't do that for us. and a lot of times within the sport community we're like maybe we just need to have a working dog world organization that really it's not like we

need a, we need people that will come out and, and educate and, and because what is happening in Austria, it's, it's not even the beginning. I was going to say it's the beginning, but it's not even the beginning. I mean, everything is about to end very quickly and we don't realize that and we're all standing divided, you know. You're right and in fact, funnily enough, because I mentioned Professor Messler and I talking about this last night, one of the things that he's mentioned or said a few times to me, and I think it's true, that pretty well up until now, the dialogue in relation to a lot of these issues has been between club organizations, people that are involved. His concern, which I think is a real one, is we could be getting closer to the day where that will be taken away from us and government institutions, they'll be making the decision. Yes, scary. And I agree with that. I agree with that. And that gets back to one of the things we're talking about with the breed, with over angulation. German shepherd dog, when it was most popular, was seen as a very healthy breed. now it's seen as an unhealthy breed. And part of that is misunderstanding the over angulation relative to the hip. But I understand that. You know, you've probably seen on my Facebook a video of a young puppy walking, tripping itself. Yes. And I know there are thousands like that. So I understand why it's now looked on as an unhealthy breed. So those things can be changed and I'd like to think that my book contributes in a positive way toward that. Man, what a good conversation. It's been great. Do you have a little more time? I have a it's kind of something that way back from my again my beginning of being into dogs and and shepherds and everything. And there was the whole thing about cantor on the venerao and being the hemophiliac and it was like a rumor and it was like and even today I have no idea what what happened there. Do you know? Like you have to know. I know. Yeah. Because that was always like a very you know hush hush and like but you get your attention but it kept going. Yeah. What what and it's interesting again this is in my book. I stated that this occurred so it's all in the book. so I I'd heard that canto venerao was a carrier of hemophilia and obviously comes through the cells. Which is like the hemophilia is the basically doesn't make like the blood doesn't make the clot right? It just runs out. Yeah. Doesn't clot. So I was in Wienheim with Herman and Walter and the restaurant I remember it's called the Salt and Pepper really lovely restaurant and I brought up this issue of kando with Herman and Walter was sitting there and I said is there any truth to

the rumors that kando is a carrier carrier of alien. Herman looked at Walter and Walter sort of looked back at Herman and Herman said Louis we're aware of that but it's not true. It's not true. We think that there might be a link but it's very complicated blah blah but it's untrue. I said oh okay so that was that. After that conversation maybe six months later I don't even know if I'm putting you on the spot here talking about this. No no it's fine it's in the book. Kando is dead. Right. Kando is dead and I rang Walter and said what happened and Walter said and when I rang Walter he's in America judging he said my kennel manager just rang me and told me that Kando he was out running around and being silly and he ran into a tree in the kennel and hit his chest and he bled to death and he bled to death and I'm like and Walter is telling me this and I'm like holy cow I said Walter do you realise the implication of that what do you mean I said with the haemophilia he said no no no no you keep talking about and he got cranky so then I found out that he ran into the tree and there is a large artery comes across the prasternum that got cut because he's a haemophiliac he bled to death and then it became public as far as the SV were concerned and Malcolm Willis writes about this in his book that the SV said that they were going to publish all dogs that were declared haemophiliacs and I think they published two dogs names or something so in truth that was a cover up that was a cover up but even today Ivan and again I mention this in the book what surprises me even today people talk about how important Kander Vinau was to the breed how important he was and he never was a Ziger right he never won no I think he Rummel the first year put him back because of character he didn't have strong character and then the second year he made him V1 his first breed survey he was class two because of his character and he was infirm behind and then I think Rummel sort of favoured him a bit because he was producing well right but my position for the people that have said the breed ! Cannavena should never have been used for breeding period! Interesting yeah I had to like I that's been like for more than 30 years in my head yeah yeah but that's I think one of the problems with the show dog

attitude by some people that even when you've got something as dreadful as that as dreadful as that it's worth it because he gave his shape I mean think about that Ivan the logic of that argument but there are people that are like that over angulation dogs tripping themselves falling over but it's worth it because we've got the shape that's the problem we've come long ways though with where science is and it's incredible how many things we can test for today and make very intelligent choices in breeding like we have the abilities now yeah that's right and we've come a long way obviously as you say from that period like at the time of Tanto becoming oh no that would have been able to do tests because humans yeah but a lot of a lot of things are hidden in the past you know we talk about when when I did my 140 years of breed development of course I'm relying on pedigrees being accurate right Fred was really the father of Johnny Johnny was really the father of Mary I have to accept that and then I their pedigree and their critique it may be that Mary wasn't Johnny's father because there were a lot of bad things done by some people I'm smiling because in the one area won't give you names right exactly yeah I understand I'm smiling because in the in the Malino world this this was a since since they became popular in the 80s like mid 80s the really good dogs they were not coming from FCI kennels and there was a lot of I mean I remember getting my first dog and I'm like I need to know and I sit down with the breeder like the most famous like the the op and he sits me down and he just writes me in little piece of paper what really is happening and that came that was in Malino world was for a very long time like that and I think it's still like that and there is that difficult question about breathing and getting too close and trying to jump outside and if it's done carefully or if it shouldn't be done at all this is a whole other debate that maybe we need to have another podcast and talk about this yeah well certainly you know if you have a look at the show dog in Germany at the moment and look at the outcome from the last series show which I covered the first four effectively are willie we should be opening it up the bloodlines not closing them yes yes it's very difficult for an individual in this case Ben Webber standing in the middle of the ring to make things

work and juggle all the elements and I think that if money is a bigger part of the equation like how many of these dogs have been sold to China for money that you and I could buy a house for sure and that's part of the equation the water gets very muddy doesn't it yeah the dog world is very interesting yeah very interesting something that I I learned a long time ago is that in an argument in an argument self interest will always win over idealism tough one what what will be like what would you message before for the young people that are just getting involved and getting your book and getting the spark is there now what what do you tell them I think and I don't the reason I'm hesitating it's like I feel this is self interest making a comment but it's not and I don't need to preface it with any sort of apology as it were that if someone is new to the breed starting off in their early days and they are genuinely sincerely interested in the German shepherd dog in all its aspects then really this is the book they should be buying yes and I say that without apology yes no I will double down on this any day and as you know there are so many people around the world from Professor Messler talking about the FCI president to Dinky Sandros who's a leading all bridge judge so many have said if you're serious about the breed particularly if you're a German shepherd dog or working dog judge then you should have this book yeah the advice that I'd give any young person is read as much as you can listen to as much as you can ideally have a mentor but in the end allow your intelligence to decipher what's truth what's not truth navigate through everything right at the core of it all is the breed standard that is the Bible that is the ultimate guardian no living person no matter how big his ego rides above the guardianship of the breed standard if you don't like what's in the breed standard you don't like the German shepherd dog so when somebody says to you I prefer this dog to that dog look at the dog relate it to what the breed standard says and go with the breed standard

right recognize that personal moment of okay that's my personal opinion but but still there is a there is a definite guideline absolutely and Ivan when I when I gave the brief to the artist and there were two artists involved incidentally the first artist is a breed German shepherd dog authority within her own right and wrote a very good German shepherd dog book in Canada Linda Shaw and I I worked with Linda to do my drawings so initially Linda with me Linda drew the outline of the dog of that dog okay then she died prematurely unfortunately and so I had to find an artist a leading world artist to take the outline and create the painting and that's where Collette Thoreau came in so the benefit for anyone that wants to see the breed standard in a visual form then that's been constructed for them Lois man I mean I have to thank you for for everybody for that book highly recommended and like very happy that hopefully that ignites and excites people and we move forward because there is always a way forward and we can make it happen I think one of the difficulties Ivan in in selling the book whilst the first edition was a sellout obviously now it it's it's getting a little tougher one of the difficulties is as you can see it is utterly impossible to convey to anybody what this book is like until they've got it that's the difficulty the other one is that language can be a problem and so for example I know in Germany the sales are lower there than anywhere else and one of the reasons put forward is the language for sure but as you've seen there are about 1500 diagrams it's almost like all the words have also been converted into images and drawings so even if you don't read English the book has got a lot to offer without a doubt yeah yeah very true man okay Louis I think we need to do another one I'm not sure what we're going to talk about but there I feel like we have more conversations to have thanks Ivan so I think it's a good place to end this one thank you for coming in and yeah everybody there it is highly recommended as I said like it is becoming a mandatory reading for the school that I run for dog trainers not because of any it's just a it's a artwork like it's a thing and that's the other thing you touched on it that it it it it makes a perfect coffee table doesn't it some of the images are

just extraordinary like I tell you right now sorry to interrupt but just as we're talking today well now it's too late but we have a workshop and we were training dogs and I have friends coming from all over the states and I have a very good friend of mine at home and I just I didn't even send it I just put it on the table he got stuck he opened a page then he opened another page and he got stuck and I'm like what and the next thing is where do I buy it I'm like yeah I'll tell you great so interesting the other thing is the number of people Ivan that have said to me who's the dog on the cover what's his name they can't believe that is a painting but what's lovely about it is that the number of people that are that looks like my dog or and because it's a collage of 11 dogs so the difficulty in me because it's the definitive German shepherd dog the head that I had on there originally was Faya Adelschlag who's a lovely female Seager German Seager and then I showed people and they said oh but her ears are a bit big are you saying those ears are okay I said no and her eyes are a little bit round are you saying they're idealized I said no in the inside of the cover it tells you it's it's and what came across was but people will read that the definitive German shepherd dog they won't read what you've said inside and they'll say so Louis Donald is saying that's an ideal head so when I look for an ideal male head all the Seagers couldn't get one that was ideal nice eyes big ears nice and so went on so in the end I had to paint or create my own head and the same of the dog the number of people that think that is a real dog it will be interesting how like now now I'm thinking of how how we are so like our attentions man just because of social media we cannot focus for too long on one thing but that book gets your attention that can stop you and you can if you're a dog person you will spend time in it which is on its own amazing in today's time you know of swiping and scrolling that's right and the other thing that reminds me of and you would have seen comments from quite a number of doctors I mean putting aside Professor Messler as an orthopedic surgeon so his support for the book because there's so much that's technical in there all the bones and so on I drew all of them all those bones I drew and then Gail did the coloring in but the number of general practitioner doctors that have said this book is technically there's nothing else like it Lois have a good day I guess it's I don't know what time is it down there but it

looks beautiful it looks beautiful it is beautiful I'll go for a swim now hopefully I don't know when I'm gonna make it down under again but if I do we definitely have to thank you for the conversation and hopefully everybody enjoyed that so we will be talking again take care next Thank you.