에피소드 54: Jason Purgason

And IACP for everybody that kind of doesn't get the, uh, abbreviations. So it's, it's, uh, um, International Association of Canine Professionals, right? Yeah. Yeah, correct. And, and it's based in the States and, and, um, and, but now you are the current president, which is really cool. Um, I, at one point, I don't know, a few years back, I was part of the legislation or legislative committee. Um, it, it seems like, um, at the moment, everything is kind of changing. Like there is, uh, uh, new faces on the board of directors. So, uh, kind of, you know, some, some new blood, more excitement, hopefully good things coming along. Um, but, uh, the, the place that you have, by the way, it's just, it's amazing. I mean, the, I don't know how, how big it is right now as far as, you know, uh, acres and, and, but, but the, when, when I was there, it was, it was just a beautiful, and it was a good time of the year. But just, uh, the whole facility was just really, really cool, uh, um, to, to train and to see and everything. Um, like if, I, I like the service dog stuff. I know we've talked about this. Um, how, how did the service dog thing, and especially, you know, when, when typically when you think about service dogs, you would think something most likely something different than autism. And how, how did you guys find what, what, what drew you to this part of, uh, uh, therapy work? I mean, it's not the common, you know, it's not, it is not easy. And I cannot wait to hear more about it. Uh, it's a really interesting story. Um, almost, almost, almost a funny story looking back on it now. Um, so as I mentioned, we started our business in 2006. Um, however, I had been training dogs working for other companies and had a law enforcement career prior to that. But, um, we had trained some, we had trained some service dogs, uh, for individuals, primarily those in wheelchairs. Um, and for, uh, a few other things for, for individuals who had hearing disabilities or were completely deaf. And, um, our autism service dog, uh, sort of, our entry into that, uh, again, it's pretty interesting. Um, that was started in 2008. So we'd been in business for, for a few years, again, training different service dogs. Uh, and the way that we got into it was, um, we had, uh, my wife and I have for many years fostered children. Uh, and, and one of the children that we ended up fostering had autism. So that was, uh, very eyeopening for us. Um, challenging to say the least, not knowing much about it. But, um, um, this whole thing sort of started in, in 2008, uh, middle part of 2008, I believe it was.

Um, we were, uh, getting up, getting ready for our day and, uh, getting ready to go, go train some dogs. And we were drinking coffee and watching, um, morning news broadcasts. And part of that morning news broadcast, they had a, uh, had a company on there. Um, and this company was demonstrating the service dogs that they had trained for individuals with autism spectrum disorders. And, um, and, um, we, we listened and we looked at what the dogs were doing. Um, um, and we then heard what price, uh, they were asking for these dogs. Um, we, we, we knew a few individuals who had children with, um, autism spectrum disorders, not many at the time. And, uh, I don't remember the exact number, but it was, you know, somewhere around 40 or $50,000 per dog. And this was back in 2000 and, um, 2008. And if you'll remember, that was the year that, um, market crashed. Yeah. Yeah. So we watched this thing and we hear the price and we see the, we see what, what things these dogs are able to, uh, to do, which honestly we were not impressed by. And, and it just sort of, we sort of looked at each other almost instantaneously. And we're like, we can do better than that. And we can do it for a lot cheaper. Um, and that's sort of how it started. Uh, we, we started, you know, researching, we started learning. We, um, I'll be honest with you that the best information and the best teachers we have ever had, uh, about how to best work with these clients. A lot of them are children. Most of them, not all, uh, has been from the family members of those individuals and from those individuals themselves. Um, we have learned so much, uh, over the years and, uh, it's such a complex, uh, you know, it's really such a complex thing. And, um, there's a saying, uh, that we heard really early on. Um, I'm not sure if you've ever heard it, but it, the saying goes, uh, once you've met one child with autism, then you've met one child with autism. Uh, and it just goes to show just how unique they are. Uh, and the reality is we, we figured out super early in the process that the dogs had to be just as unique as these individuals. There was no opportunity, in our opinion, there was no opportunity for some sort of cookie cutter approach. You know, you couldn't, couldn't mass produce these dogs to go out and, and, and help these individuals in the way that they needed it. They had to be, um, they had to be really be customized in a way that they were able to very specifically help mitigate that individual's disability. And it's, you know, it's, it's been a, it's been a journey.

It's been a, uh, it's, it's part of the business that I still truly love. I'm still involved in it. Um, quite a bit, uh, I do still get to travel and meet families and, you know, meet the individuals who are, who are receiving the dogs. And, uh, it's, it's, it's incredibly rewarding. Do you guys do like after, after placement, do you have any follow-ups and kind of ongoing communication with them or, or, yeah. We do, uh, we, we, it, it, this will sound a little cliche, but the reality is, this is incredibly true. And that's, um, the fact that we oftentimes, um, somewhat become family with these individuals, you know, it's such a process and we get to know them so well. Yeah. Cause you get to know them on a very intimate level, actually. I mean, I mean, there is no way other around it. Yeah. I, I, I, I just, uh, recently opened a Christmas card, uh, from the family of the very first autism dog that we ever trained back in two, we delivered it early 2009. So, uh, uh, 16, 16 years ago, January 09. So 16 years ago, I'm still getting Christmas cards from these people. That dog unfortunately has, has passed, but the, you know, again, we're still connected with those, those people. So, uh, that's, that's, that's what's about all the time. I mean, this is the good, the good stories, right? How is it like, is it still the same or what? Like I'm thinking, where do you get the dogs? What type of dogs do you, do you have the, any in-home program breeding or, or how, how, where do you guys, what do you do? Cause that's not easy to select that type of dogs. And I need to kind of also, I'm super curious of, as you said, they are very different in individual one-to-one basis, but, but still what comes to mind when you are to select a dog and say, I think that's going to be a good one. Um, it's, it's, it can be a challenging process because you have to, uh, you really have to understand the individual first before you have any real opportunity to select the right dog for. Uh, you know, so that's, that's one thing that we found out again, really early on. We have to, we have to truly understand this person. We have to understand their lifestyle. We have to understand their schedule, their activity level, uh, their level, potentially a level of impulsivity. And, you know, um, the, there's a lot of nuance, uh, when, when, you know, looking at these matches and what's going to make a good fit. Uh, we have been incredibly successful over the years, not perfect.

Um, I won't, I'd never say we got a perfect track record, but I don't know that anybody does, but, uh, overall, you know, our, our, our track records is excellent. I would rate it as excellent, but again, there are some that won't fit. They're just not going to fit. Um, they're not going to fit well and do the job you want them to. Um, one of the reasons why I think our, um, our record is so good is because our, our application process, and it is in fact a process, uh, is so in depth. Um, it, it, it requires, you know, a lot of information. Uh, we obtained videos from the family of the, the individual who's going to be receiving the doll, you know, interacting in their environment on a daily basis. Um, so there's a lot that goes into it, um, because we want to make sure that, um, we're not just placing the doll. We're not just selling someone a service dog. We want to make sure, um, that we're providing them with a dog that is going to be of help to them in their daily life. Because, you know, if we match them with the wrong dog, or if we match somebody who really, from looking at their application, isn't going to benefit from a dog, we're simply giving them more work. And, and that's, you know, just all the individuals. Yeah, probably more work and just, just tension and just, just, yeah, creating more, more difficulties all around. Yeah. Yeah. And conflict. And, you know, that's, that's the last thing these people need. I mean, they've got enough on their plate. They don't need something else to take care of, you know, that's not offering, um, direct, consistent benefit to them. Um, wow. So the, the, when, when, um, what would it be, does it even make a difference if they have some dog experience, the family, or if they just never hit a dog and came across hurt from somebody and so on? Which one, which one, which one would you rather take? It's a great question. You know, I say it's a great question because we've, um, we've had a lot of experience with both. Um, and, um, I'll be honest with you, um, someone who comes into this with, um, first and foremost, very realistic expectations about the capabilities and limitations of a service dog is who I want to work with. Um, secondly, I want somebody who has an open mind. Um, uh, three, I want somebody who, um, is willing to, um, you know, allow us to help. Um, and, and, and that's important. And I say that because, you know, there are a lot of people, uh, who are incredibly guarded, uh, for a variety of reasons.

And all of, all of those reasons are, um, uh, legitimate, you know, really in most cases, they're legitimate reasons that they're guarded. Uh, when it comes to that, uh, that, that person on the spectrum, you know, they want to ensure that everything is, is, is as best it can be for them. But, um, we've had, we've had families who have never owned a dog before. I tell this story, you know, of, of the, one of the early ones we did. And, you know, they're asking questions like, where do we set the food bowl, you know, to, to someone like us? I mean, that's, it's not something that we even really think about, but to them, they had to make sure that they got that right. And, and they're, they didn't even have enough experience to say, Hey, you know, where do we, where do we put the food bowl? Where do we keep the dog food? You know, um, and, and man, they, they had so much success, uh, with that dog. Um, that dog was such a great fit for them. They loved that dog. She, she passed away, I think at around 11, 10 or 11 years old. Um, she, she went with and worked with that, that kid and, um, actually sort of provided support for the, for the whole family, uh, for many, many years. Um, but you know, we've had, um, we've had people who have multi-dog households, um, where it's not the best fit. Yeah. Yeah. That can get complicated. They've had plenty of dogs before they grew up with dogs. They've been around them all their life, but they come with so many bad habits, um, that they really sort of interfere with what that service dog is able to do. So, um, you know, there's, there's no perfect situation, obviously. And, and we've seen it work really well with both, um, individuals who've had dogs, dog experience and dogs before. Yeah. Those who've never had. Wow. Yeah. That's kind of like I, I, going back in my time when we used to train guide dogs, it was, I couldn't tell sometimes, uh, people that had dogs and people that didn't have dogs. Because one of the problems that I used to come across, there was, uh, it's just kind of, you know, not a good feeling was when the person did need the dog. But the dog was treated as a, and you, sometimes you can have this in, in the police world as well. Like it is just a, a piece of equipment, a tool or something just to have when you need, but not really appreciate that. It's a living being that needs not just food, not just, you know, and, uh, um, I'm sure you've had this too, right? Um, I've seen it with, as you mentioned, I've seen it with working dogs. Um, and I've seen it with a few of the, the other types of, of service dogs that we train.

Um, but that's the one thing I love about training service dogs for particularly kids, uh, and young adults with autism spectrum disorders is, you know, one of, one of the sort of. I hate to put it, one of the side jobs, uh, for this dog, uh, in most cases, not all, but most cases is, you know, a social draw. It's a social draw for these kids and young adults. Um, you know, the, the, these individuals oftentimes are isolated. Uh, they have a lot of friends, uh, they don't see a lot of interaction in public, uh, for a variety of reasons. And then all of a sudden we put this fluffy dog with them. And now all of a sudden people are, people are paying attention. They're interacting. They're talking to this kid where they never would have before, even to ask, Hey, can we pet your dog? Or what's your dog's name? Or, you know, what type of dog is this? And then, you know, these dogs, um, are, are also serving in a lot of cases, again, not all, but in a lot of cases as a, a bit of a playmate with, with these children. And, and the, you know, their ability to play is wonderful. I mean, it's absolutely wonderful for, for both sides of it, right? The dog, the dog benefits from it, the kid benefits from it. Um, so, you know, unlike some of the guide dogs and other service dogs, the, those that are, they're working with, uh, the people with autism spectrum disorders, they, they get to be, they get to be dogs a little more. And, uh, that's one of the things that I really like about it. True. Yeah, that's very true. Um, I have, I like, I have, um, I mean, I have all interest of a, literally any kind of dog training, but, um, for some reason, like, even if, when I look back here, even in my library, I have a bunch of books on autism because there is like, okay, behavioral issues in autism. Um, um, it, it, it, it, it, it just because the, I guess, learning principles and the way you will educate and the way you will interact with a kid with autism. Like, there's certain things that you have to understand and know what you can and what you shouldn't. And, and, and, and, and so, so it's, it's fascinating to me. And that's kind of where I was like, man, this is so exciting that, uh, what is the most challenging you would say? I'm sure that it's not one thing and it's not an easy, easy one to, to just pinpoint to one specific. But where do you, like, in, if, if you, in average can say, where would be the challenging situations between the kid and the dog? Um, good question. There, there, there, you know, there's a few things, um, where we, where we run into issues or run into issues in the past.

And, um, one of those is, you know, where, where the kid's really too young. Um, and, and there's, there's little or not, not the, not the right connection between the dog and the kid, just because of, just because the kid's not yet ready to accept the dog. And number two, um, you know, I think a lot of those kids, their, their behaviors haven't really developed in a way that we have the ability to train the dog to mitigate them. So, um, we, we try to steer clear that, you know, there's a lot of, um, there's a lot of folks out there who say we don't train dogs for kids that are too young. Their idea of too young is seven or eight. Our idea of too young is way younger than that, you know, um, and there's a lot of organizations who won't train dogs for individuals who are aged out as they put it, um, and aged out maybe 13 or 12 where, um, you know, we've, we've placed dogs with people who are much, much, much older than that over the years. Um, so that's, you know, those behaviors not being developed in the kid being a little too young is probably the biggest, um, hurdle that's really very difficult to get over. So, you know, we typically encourage that. That totally makes sense. Reapply. What about space? Like, like, like, like, let's say the family have, uh, some really small apartment in, in the city or they have like a really big country. Like, tell me about that. Cause I'm thinking that that could create issues in both ways. Um, we've done both. So we've, we've placed, um, we placed dogs on huge ranches in Texas, um, in, in families that had multiple kids. We've placed dogs in, um, condos and apartments in Manhattan. Uh, so, uh, we've been, we've been successful in both. The biggest thing I think with that is again, going back to really sort of understanding the lifestyle and, and then picking the right dog. That's going to be a good match. Yeah. So we, like I said, we've made it work. Um, it's a lot harder to condition a dog to, you know, it's a lot harder for us in North Carolina and the rural area of North Carolina. So it's, it's more difficult for us to prepare a dog for Manhattan than it is, uh, for a ranch in Texas. But, you know, uh, the reality is we, we put that dog on a plane and, and we take it to Manhattan and we spend four or five days and we take it to Times Square and we take it to other places to make sure that it's, it's going to be, um, environmentally stable. And going back to the question that I had with, as far as where do the dogs come from? So with us, they come from a variety of sources. I'll be honest with you.

We have, um, we have a number of breeders that we've had, um, the, the fortune to develop relationships with over the years. That's where a majority of our dogs come from. Um, these sorts of select breeders. Is that the Labrador doodles that I was going to steal one when I was there at your place? Yeah. We, you know, so we do, um, you know, a lot of people ask us, so what do you train? Is it labs? Is it Labradoodles? We, we don't have a breed of choice. We really don't. Uh, we, we do train doodles. We, we train standard poodles. Um, we do a lot of sporting breeds, uh, Labradors. Golden Retrievers. Um, we have trained, um, we trained a lot of dogs that most people wouldn't, simply wouldn't, um, um, wouldn't pick. Uh, we trained a, uh, uh, we trained a Y Mariner one time. Um, and, and we picked this, this particular one runner because this dog absolutely was so energetic and wanted to be active all day and wanted to run and wanted to, you know, engage with a person like all day long. Um, now, as you, as you know, that's not going to be a great fit in most circumstances. It's just not, it's going to be way too much. Most people are not going to have the time to fulfill that dog's needs. Um, but we ended up placing that dog with a, an autistic girl who I think at the time was, this was maybe 13. Um, and she ran marathons. So, you know, we needed a dog that was, that was, uh, you know, capable of keeping up with her and, and man, it was a match made in heaven. Those two loved each other. Again, she, she worked that dog and worked with that dog until his later life. He's again, he's passed away, but, uh, um, yeah, I mean, remarkable fit, but wouldn't fit in 95% of the houses of the people that we, that we work with. Yeah. Yeah. That's a, it's a very, very interesting. Would the, what about the, like the size of the dog? Size is definitely a factor. Yeah. Um, you know, Yeah. And it really depends on what, you know, again, it depends on that individual and what we're going to be training this dog to do. Um, Like my guess would be that you need kind of a sturdy dog or, or like when, when I think of hearing dog, I'm thinking, okay, pretty much any dog, but any little dog loves to kind of play around being a hearing dog. To where. Guy dog. You do need some power in there. Uh, in there that's controllable, but you do need it. Right. And, and for autism. Autism. Depends on the kid. You know, it depends on the person. We, um, we, um, man, we've had kids that were nine years old that are pushing six foot to 25. I mean, yeah, they're, they're, they're, they're big, big, big kids.

And then, you know, we've had others that are in their twenties and they're four, eight, 85 pounds. Um, so, you know, um, you know, a lot of factors go into, um, size. Uh, and again, it depends on skillset. I'll, I'll, I'll go ahead and I'll go ahead and say it. You know, it's a, it's somewhat deemed by quite a few people to be somewhat controversial. Um, but for many, many years, we've had a tremendous amount of success with what we refer to as tethering. Um, and tethering is a process oftentimes that starts off with the, the individual and the dog being physically attached through a short line and a harness. Um, the primary reason for it is because, um, you know, these, these, these young folks will bolt across a parking lot or bolt across a roadway or, you know, they're engaging in behaviors. It's potentially incredibly dangerous. And, uh, you know, we've, we've gotten a lot of pushback over the years for doing that. Um, our, our objective with all of these, all of these young folks and all these individuals, the objective is to go from having them tethered to a dog to tethering them and them managing the leash with help. And eventually them just managing, managing the leash and, you know, working and having this dog heal with them. Do we always get there? No. Um, is that always our objective and goal? Yeah, it sure is. Um, so, you know, if we've got kids that are, uh, you know, I mean, some of them are both when I say they're bolters, they man, they're quick, they're athletic. Um, and, and you've got to have a dog that is capable of, um, stopping that. Um, so yeah, in, in a lot of these cases, we have to have dogs that are sizable, uh, good structure about them. Um, dogs have to be. And very sound as far as temperament, right? Yeah. Because like, uh, like when I thinking of, um, let's say seizure alert dog, they, they can be borderline spooky, but because of that, they are so aware and they freak out and they, they get to naturally. And then with a little reinforcement, they start to really be good alerting, but that wouldn't be a good idea for, for, for what you're talking about. No, no. No. And we do, uh, to that point talking about, you know, a lot of these individuals are affected by autism and seizures. So we end up doing, uh, what we call combinations, right? So this dog is multi, multi task trained to do, to do both. That's very interesting because I, I just always kind of go back to, you know, my guide dog years of people always think of somebody being blind.

And, and, and man, being blind comes from so many different reasons and comes with so many other package, like a full package of, of, of problems and illnesses that, you know, that when you think about it, the blindness is like the, the easy problem that they are having, you know? So that, that's a whole other thing because anytime we, we think of any type of service dog, I mean, you're fortunate if there is one or only two problems. Typically it's not as easy as, as that. And, and, and that makes it really challenging and very interesting, but, but it is very challenging. And yeah, you just reminded me of this. It's crazy. Um, how long, how long would you take on average? What, what, what does it take to where you say, you know, I feel, I feel good about it. I can step away. Um, as far as the training of the dogs? Yeah. Yeah. Like, like, usually, usually somewhere between 12 and 16, 18 months. So, so it's pretty tasking. Yeah. That's pretty, that's, what would be the, like, uh, would you, would you consider dog that's four or five years old for that type of work? That, that has the, like, you, you're saying, well, I wish that I was a two year old or a one year old, but he's four. Would you consider it or no? Um, no. And, and, and I'll say, I'll, I'll tell you why, because we do get that. We do get that request from time to time. People have existing dogs and we do offer to train people's existing dogs. If that dog, um, it meets certain criteria. Uh, one of them has to be age. And, and it's not that the four year old dog can't perform the tasks. It's not that they can't be trained. It's not that they can't do the job. Um, I'm, this is me being, uh, me making the decision, um, that I'm not going to allow this person to invest all of this time, money, and resources in a dog that they're not going to get a full working life out of. So, you know, they're by the time this dog's four, and then we take it in to train it now it's five and a half. They're simply not going to get the return on investment that, that they should. And, and I don't want to put them in that position and then have them look back and say, I really wish they would not have allowed me to do this. You know, I feel like I was shorted of, you know, four years or two years or whatever it is. That's cool. I mean, that makes sense, really. That's kind of almost with, with anything. It's just, it's unfortunate that the lifespan of a dog, man, it's just really unfortunate. I tell you, I have a dog right now that I just posted on my Facebook for my breeding. She just had her 18th birthday. 18? 18. Yeah. Wow.

And of course she, she, you know, but 18, I mean, and it, it's a, I always think that if, as a breeder, if we start paying more attention and we start to really be careful and, and keep selecting for longevity. Because you cannot have longevity without health, right? I mean, it's just not going to happen. It will break down much sooner than that. Something will, being the back, being the hips, being the, something will break. You cannot go to 18 years on a dog. But I, I do believe that we can collectively start to select for longevity and, and increase the working lifespan of a dog by at least two, three years more. If, if, if collectively we start to work on this, what, what are your thoughts on that? Yeah. Well, I think, I think lots of things have been accomplished over the years through selective breeding. Um, I don't know that there's been enough emphasis on longevity, right? Unfortunately, and this is just my opinion, but unfortunately way too many people are, are focused simply on confirmation and, you know, that outward appearance. Because let's be honest, in, in most circumstances, that's what's going to sell. Um, but, yeah, I think there's definitely an opportunity to increase longevity amongst breeds if, if that seems to be more of a focus. Mm-hmm. And, and I'm talking not like by doing some voodoo's and, and changing the diet and, you know, how the anti-aging now, it's so pronounced with humans. And there is this people that spend literally billions of dollars on, on, on, have a whole team of, I'm, I'm just talking this genetically kind of, you know, like where I come from kind, you know, we stay in Europe, Mediterranean, whatever. There is all this, what people believe they are really old people there, um, that are typically older than other parts of the world. And, and, and, and it just would be so cool to have a dog that's older, but it's still capable to function because the, I think their understanding continues to grow and their knowledge expands. And they, they really start to become like little people, I mean, more than the six years old, you know, but it's just the, they're giving up. And, and, and, and I can only imagine how cool that would be to have this three more years of working lifespan in, in, in any, any type of dog, being police, being service dog, being hunting, anything, you know, even like my little chihuahua. Wow. It could be so amazing, but, um, now with, um, so, so you guys do also hearing dogs. How does the, does the, like the people that come to the school, are they of any help? How, how is everything working?

Is it intertwining some way or how, how do you guys have the structure of, of, I mean, cause it's a big operation. You're doing quite a few things in there. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's all interconnected. Uh, it is all interconnected. So, um, we, um, you know, we have a very sort of structured program for our students. Um, but it's, you know, it's, it's difficult to teach students about police. If you're not training police dogs, and it's difficult to teach them about service dogs, if you're not training service dogs. Uh, so, you know, our, our places is, is a little bit unique in that we, uh, you know, we have an entire division dedicated to police and military working dogs. We have an entire division dedicated service dogs. So when, when people come to, to the school here, our program, they get, um, you know, they get a chance to be completely immersed. If, you know, if they, if they wish, uh, in those facets of the business to include our, you know, our pet dog programs. And, you know, how do we work with the clients and how do we work with the dogs and how do we deal with behavior cases? And, you know, uh, so, you know, even like lessons going into people's homes and doing those individual private lessons with people. The students, students are required to attend at least one of those during the program. Um, they can attend more, but, uh, you know, they're, they're required to attend one and they're created on, on that attendance there. So, yeah, we try our best to immerse them in as much as we possibly can. Going back, we'll get to the school again, but going back to the service dogs. Is it United States only, or do you go, how far would you go? So we'll go as far as, uh, as we need to, uh, no, we have, we have delivered dogs internationally. Um, we do, we do more in the U S obviously, but no, we've delivered to, um, Canada and other countries, Mexico. Um, so yes, we, Puerto Rico, uh, other Caribbean islands. We, so we, we're willing to offer global delivery. Um, but as you know, uh, you know, a lot of, a lot of countries, even some in Europe don't recognize service dogs the same and they don't have the same. Yeah. They don't have the same, uh, protections as they do in the U S. And also, man, I don't even want to go there, at least not yet, but also Europe having all the, the problems with tool restrictions and bands and what is okay. Okay. And what is not okay. Okay. I mean, that top set that, that's just creates one extra problem and, and a big problem. I would think, no.

It does, but you know, and I know you said, we'll get to it later, but yeah, just having a conversation this week. Um, there's a push and again, controversial full transparency here, uh, sort of goes along with the tethering. Um, you know, we, we use training tools with service dogs. We use training tools with service dogs on a pretty regular basis, but there is a, there is a movement, uh, amongst some of the larger organizations to, uh, restrict and, and, and ban training tools specifically with service dogs. And, um, I think, I think that creates a situation where it's going to be incredibly difficult, um, for certain individuals to be able to, um, get a dog that is best suited for them because they're now limited in what other resources that they have available to them. Um, there's, it seems to be, seems to be pretty taboo, you know, it's just, uh, oh, training tools. Yeah. Okay. But you should never use them with service dogs. You know, there's so many people that believe that. Um, I do not agree with that, uh, position. That's just my personal opinion. Uh, I don't agree with it at all. And we've been able to do, you know, we've been able to do some really, really, really great things with, um, service dogs and been able to. Put them in situations where they have the opportunity to, to, uh, provide assistance and help for individuals because we were able to, um, more clearly communicate with that particular dog. Yeah, no, I mean. That, that's kind of funny. We don't need to convince each other on this, but, but man, it's, it's, it gets frustrating with this because, uh, I, I know, like, I really like the guide dog stuff. It's so interesting for me that there, there, sometimes there are days that I'm like, I should just take a dog and just train it because of what I know today comparing to who I was 20 years ago. Like, I would just be so interesting for me to, to, to do it. So I do pay attention to how, what, what goes on in the country and around the world. And I have had the opportunity to go to some of schools in the country and outside and looking at what they do today. Comparing to what the dogs were able to do 20 years ago. It's so dramatically different, the quality. To where a guide dog today in most places of the world can only do a specific memorized route from here to the store or to the bank and back home. And God forbid there is a construction on the sidewalk. We may not even know how to navigate it because it just comes out of nowhere.

We, we used to train and like, even on a preliminary, because we had like a couple of different tests and on a preliminary test, which is halfway through the training, just to see where we are. And you would put the blindfold, get you on a little bus and drop you off and you find your way back to the school. That was a preliminary work. I mean, you are, when you're talking about orcas in SeaWorld and training in the open ocean, very much the same thing. And what is happening right now because of, of, I, I'm, that, that's my understanding. I'm not a hundred percent sure, but. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. You said it talking about being in the open ocean with orcas, you know, and, and, and the ability to do that with a guide dog. I had to, I had the privilege to interview. Yes. You got me that podcast and we have to, you have to tell me all about this. Yes. Yes. Yeah. Trevor, Trevor lives in Charlotte. His name's Trevor Thomas. Incredibly interesting guy. He, when I talked to him, he was on his second guide dog. So he's, he's of the, of the class you're talking about where his first guide dog came many, many years ago. And, and, and even, even in, in that podcast, he, he, where we interviewed him, he talks about how. You know, he searched and searched trying to find organizations to provide a dog and nobody wanted to, because they knew what he wanted to do with that dog. And, and, and they're like, no, it's not safe. You can't do it. We're not going to give you a dog. But he, you know, he, he persevered. He finally found an organization. They provided him with his first dog. And, and he, he worked with that dog. He got accustomed to that dog. Well, backstory on Trevor. He was, he lost his vision at a little later stage in life. He wasn't born blind, but prior to that, he was an adrenaline junkie. He raced cars and jumped out of airplanes. And, you know, so he, he got his first service dog. He, he got comfortable with it and he hit the Appalachian trail. You know, he, he circumnavigated the Appalachian mountain trail from Georgia to Maine entirely by himself, only with the assistance of an iPhone and his service dog. And, you know, there's, as you know, there are people who struggled to, to, to get from one end of that to the other who are sighted people. And, and when he finished, he went to the Pacific coast trail, the Colorado mountain trail. And he's, he's, he's probably hiked more of those trails than most people who can see. And he's done it single-handedly with the help of only a guide dog. So, yeah, I mean, that's, that's, that's going out in the open ocean.

Guys, by the way, I will, I will put a link to the podcast. I mean, Jason's going to give you the names and everything, but we will have the link. And it's, this is really worth listening. It's just a brilliant story. I wasn't even thinking about this. I'm glad that this comes up because it's just such an amazing story. And, and yeah, going back to, to tools and training and, you know, like you, you create limitations for yourself when you do that. And, and that's kind of where we are with, with guide dogs. It's, it's very unfortunate that even the, the young trainers that are training guide dogs right now, I watch them and they, they really don't know what is possible. This is kind of the sad part. They don't have a clue what is actually possible. What a well-trained dog can do. That you can, you can drop me in Chinatown in San Francisco or in, in whatever you want to do. I will get out. I will get to where I want to be. And it's a little bit sad because ideology takes it this way. But anyway, let me, you know, when, when I was back at, at your place and we had drinks and we were talking dogs and, you know, talk to me about the police side of things. And I know there is a big component of the detection stuff that I am very curious, but, but what, what, what's going on with the, what are you doing with the police dogs? um so police dogs uh we uh you know we we offer uh in name the same same type of police dogs most people do uh dual purpose single purpose dogs bomb dogs drug dogs um so a variety of things we also do um search and rescue dogs um on that side of the house as well um we we sort of believe our forte is really sort of the detection part of it i'm i'm incredibly passionate about um the detection side of of things um i think there's uh so much there uh that to me to me detection the detection part of of of the industry is is like space we or the ocean there's so much of it we we hadn't had an opportunity to explore we've not been able to um in my opinion we've not tapped into the um dogs ability um in a way that i think there's a possibility to um i think i really think and i may have mentioned this before i think that's one one portion of the industry that has been for some reason or another oversimplified um and meaning when i say oversimplified what i mean by that is um you know i think it's it's something that people say oh training a bomb dog training the rogue dog you know that's that's that's easy you know doing this or that or this is hard um where you know again a position i don't necessarily agree with i think detection is incredibly complex

uh i think there's a huge need and this is again my opinion but a huge need for the industry to create a bit of a shift um to be more and i don't want to use the word science because i think that has been just completely worn out but systematic i think more systematic about how we approach detection dogs um there has been a lot of data and a lot of research and a lot of um um you know a lot of a lot of information and data that has come from operational environments you know i think that is you know a lot of people when it comes to detection dogs a lot of people want to look at what happens in the lab their lab but they they they really sort of negate those things that happen in the field every day or in an operational environment every day um and i don't think i don't think i don't think we should be able to cherry pick our our information that way i don't think we should cherry pick data that way and i think uh um i think i think again there's a lot of space with detection for us to be a lot more systematic about it um for us to have a much greater understanding um i just simply don't believe it's it's as yeah we haven't we haven't a lot of people yeah i i agree we haven't reached the the potential of how to do it better efficiently and how to really go to a to a more uh to that other level of what is possible right yeah and that's the thing that gets me you know it doesn't seem that way in the sport world so much but uh and i don't we we can talk about sport world versus uh police dog world later if you want um you know it seems like a lot of the competition folks focus on how to do it better whereas a lot of the a lot of the industry in regards to police dog particularly police dog side is how do we do it quicker just because we can doesn't mean we should first and foremost um and you know our process for training dog police dogs and detection dogs is um on average uh about four to five times longer than everybody else's industry standard or the you know everybody else's sort of baseline for training those dogs um i like that i tell you why i mean i'll let you speak about it but i i just like to train longer no matter what it is and i i and speaking for myself i'm i'm consider myself a way above average level of dog trainer i can do things very fast but there is a difference when you take the time that's the time that's needed to create what you need to create and somehow in and it's not just detection this is just across the board there is this race of how who can make it faster

it's ridiculous it's like okay make it faster but make it be as good then you get my attention or better or better sorry i interrupted you yeah no it's um you know it's it's also been my experience that in a lot of cases the faster a dog learns something the faster they forget it um you know so when it comes to again particularly detection but as a general rule the police dogs even service dogs faster is not always better but the the thing the thing of it is uh and i'm not complaining by any means but um you know the industry the market drives this this sort of time frame and the the market says oh well it takes x to try x period of time to train police dogs and then you know we get a call and we're like hey you know we were looking for this dog and you know when can we get it we say oh well it's gonna be 20 weeks or 16 weeks or whatever and they're like wow wow what takes you so long um well i can i can explain what takes so long i can explain why we take that long and i can explain um what we've done to determine that we should be taking that long if if people give me you know the opportunity to explain it but you know most of the time they're not willing to um and that's okay um because i have found um over the years that uh particularly particularly with the police dogs uh and the military working dogs it is in my opinion more fulfilling for me to be able to sell dogs and sell training to individuals who are more open-minded and um more willing to be educated they're more probably more educated buyers uh and that for me is um again it's just it's just uh yeah i mean that's just a pleasant uh yeah for no question about that um what do you think about who i mean there's just there quite a bit of variation of one approach of teaching detection but there let's say there is like maybe four kind of or three quite different i wouldn't say radically different but there is there's some there's some very interesting things and then you have the old 70 year old lady with her little dog doing iksy nose work and it's doing better than the the dog that's being through class and and selected and so on and so on and she has no idea what she's doing a lot of times but she can kick their asses sometimes you know yeah yeah you're right um that i was in a conversation about this not not that long ago um what you just said sort of reminds me of that conversation it's a little off topic but um i won't mention names but you you may remember there was a there was a show um i don't know how many seasons maybe one or two

seasons of this particular show um that was on if i'm not it was on network tv a couple years back where they had uh during the show they would have these competitions and they would have police dogs dogs and civilian dogs and the dogs would have to perform uh you know perform these uh detection problems and then patrol type problems and you know as you said that the civilians were kicking their asses not every time not every time but sure of course but but pretty consistently and this is on national tv and our nation's law enforcement's getting their ass kicked by some you know competitive dog owner and and you know i think that in itself sort of speaks volumes because the reality is it shouldn't be that way yeah i mean at least shows that there is there is more to to improve there is more to learn there is always cool ideas and and what do you think is like if if you what comes to mind in the detection work in the military and the police type of detection work that almost seems like it's set on stone but it's so misguided so misleading that it's it's kind of like a myth that nobody that people can actually think about it and be like i don't know why we're doing this but everybody else is doing it what comes to mind so much um there's actually so much um probably the most predominant one um is and i'm i'm gonna get a lot of hate for this oh shit we can we can cut it because i always do say it no you don't need to cut it i say um is is the system that that's been around the industry forever and it's called the stew method or cocktail method of imprinting dogs tell a little bit about it yeah yeah you know basically it's you take all the odor all these not odors you take all these materials all these bomb materials or all these drug materials you combine them all together and then you imprint a dog for a period of time with this understanding or this belief that the dog is somehow magically capable of doing division and separating and sort them in its brain in in files yeah yeah and there's a there's a couple things about that uh the first thing is again it's pretty industry standard it's pretty common practice for people in that industry to do it that way but but what i often ask people to do is to look at why why are we doing it that way what is the advantage of combining all those odors and imprinting the dog for a period of time versus teaching those odors individually now granted bomb dogs there's there's quite a few odors versus our drug dogs and the only two responses that you will get is one and i hate this one the most

it's because we've always done it that way and the second one is it saves a tremendous amount of time but there's been research done that shows that it's an ineffective way of teaching odored adults plain and simple the the it's pretty clear that it's a it's it's not the best optimal system but the reality is people continue to do it every single day yeah because just as you said i mean you have two arguments everybody seems to be doing it that must be working for them and it saves a lot of time who who wouldn't go for that right oh man yeah um and there's this race you know there's been this race i've been talking about this for a while too um this was god this was 10 years ago yeah 10 10 2014 2013 2013 12 years ago um there was a claim by somebody and i won't name names um and and they claimed that they could imprint a bomb dog on 15 odors in 45 minutes just a 45 minute training session they could teach this bomb dog 15 others and i heard that statement it was a made very publicly on tv and conferences and different places and then um after after a number of months again i'm still going to conferences and and i'm always again drawn to detection information and presentations and and there's a different person completely different organization and they're claiming they can do it in 30 minutes and then later on it the number just keeps getting lower and lower and then eventually i attended a class and i just had to do it and the class was how to imprint a drug dog in 10 minutes that was literally the name of the class this was given at a national police dog training conference dance that just sounds like a social media uh uh gig bait yeah and it does um but again you've got you've got people who are considered here's my problem you've got people who are considered to be experts who are being um positioned at these at these training conferences as experts and they're putting out information that is flawed at best and they're putting them out to a very young very impression in most cases young impressionable group um of of handlers who are taking this information as you know 100 of course because when it comes out you you you are attending a conference and and there is a presenter and basically if you're a presenter there is some level of credibility that just comes along without any further question right and these are these are the kind of the dangerous things about conferences that you do need different ideas even if there's sometimes really way out there and there's sometimes really way out there but how do you sort them out and and yeah this is a tough one

um yeah the conference is tough it's a but there is no um you know why i i i don't know like you you keep saying i shouldn't say this and i don't i actually really don't even know where i i it was some podcast i listened to and it was on detection and when you mentioned imprinting and you know you will have the leader of puppies and they will eat from their little dishes and under the dishes there are different orders and i'm like what are we doing like like what kind of like how do you even convince yourself that that there is something to that have you heard of this this is like a it's been going on for a really long time along with along with a lot of other things you know and and that's the thing it it happens throughout the industry it really does but it seems to plague the the detection community more so than anybody else and that is it's actually a number of things it's these myths urban legends and wives tales it's these truths that continue to be perpetuated even though there's no solid information to back any of it up number one and then number two is this shiny object syndrome for lack of better way to put it um you know everybody seems to be attracted to the newest latest thing even though and whether that be whether that be a device whether that be uh you know a training device or training tool or a system or methodology even though when we look at it face value it's clearly a mess it clearly isn't going to work it clearly has little to no opportunity to lead us to success but people seem to swarm on it simply because it's the newest thing or it's the it's the thing they continue to see on social media or this person said it or this person selling it yeah and there is that uh human nature thing of like what if what if really it is the the latest new invention and and i'm missing out but yeah you can try and like like i all dog training is about how do you tell the dog how do you instruct a dog in the way well because you like let's say i i just had this uh conversation i think it was with one of my graduates uh students here about detection and like how easy it is if we have let's say five coffee cups here and one has coffee and the other ones have something else and i tell you which one has the coffee and you smell and you you know you cannot mistake the cup of coffee among everything else and when you think about detection it really comes down to how well you can explain to a dog what the goal what the

objective is the only difference is that the dog cannot be instructed and guided the same way as i just said it in one sentence to a person and when when that stucks in your head you can pretty much win away all the bullshit of of some some some of the things in in different systems and approaches simply because as a whole the system may work and of course you see that yes they are producing dogs and yes these dogs are successful or at least most of them are but there is a lot of that is not needed in the whole system so-called right yeah and a lot of that's you know the biggest problem that i see one of the one of the bigger problems i see with with all these methods and systems is you know they all sort of hinge on human influence and and the reality is is with detection dogs you know specifically with detection dogs there are some other dogs that i feel like fall into this category but i think it's it's it's most most important for detection dogs we're asking those dogs to go out we're asking them to do a job we're asking them to do that job in very demanding environments and to give us information very clear decisive information without any human influence so so so if our objective is to have a dog that's capable of working in these demanding environments and making good solid decisions without a lot of errors um and and leading us to targets consistently with no human influence then why is it that our training programs involves so much human influence our objective should be to train the dog teach the dog make it clear to the dog what the job is and give them the opportunity and give them the knowledge and power to go execute that job without any influence from humans because that's what we're going to ask them to do when their training is done yeah i i like this conversation unfortunately a lot of systems start with a huge emphasis of hey i'm gonna show you how to find the other right it's like it is the foundation and then the moment the dog eventually starts to struggle what it's going to do it's going to go back to foundation hey i need help because you taught me you know that's what it's going to do it's going to do it's going to do it's going to do it's going to do it so much information that the dogs are given in these early stages of training from the human from the handler and then even during maintenance training you know every time the dog struggles whether this dog has you know been been in training for three months or three years every time that dog struggles that handler wants to step in they don't want the dog to fail they don't want them to be wrong so

they step in and help them the reality is is that in real world operational environments we don't have the information that we can use to help them so why are we doing it from the very first day that we begin to work with these dogs and i think we as an industry need to really sort of revisit how we're doing things our detection dogs are trained day one not only are our dogs trained to to understand that we're not going to help we go so far as to teach the dog that we will give them bad information we will lead them to the wrong thing more often than not so the dog simply learns very early to just ignore all the humans in this environment because they're all liars and they're all going to give me bad information so let me just rely on the things i know that work and that's my olfactory system and my cognition and then i'll get paid i love it even though i don't know exactly just the steps because there can be many you know again like that there is many ways to roam although some never get there some are very very bumpy but but thinking this way just fits how i think of it and and i think really just just this last five minutes what we said for any detection company if they focus on how we could do i bet you they can come with some better way of what they are doing today on their own without without no other help from outside you know but it's the it just starts with a different way of approaching the whole the whole process it is fundamentally different yeah and the dogs are capable of it we just have to give them the opportunity and give them the we give them we need to give them the the autonomy and that's where i think a lot of people struggle because because traditional systems of training detection have always had substantial human influence right i will i would say pretty much oh everybody starts with it insane amount of hey i'm gonna show you how this works i'm gonna show you which one i'm gonna i'm going i am pay attention to me and then with every day you're starting to fade this away but that's your foundation anytime there is a little bit of a you know lack of success a little bit of stress where do you go you go to your foundation with everything you do you go to your foundation your foundation very interesting one what about so as far as the the detection dogs what do you what what type of dogs and where do you get them and and how how does that work what do you like what kind of dogs um my answer to this is very similar to the one i gave you on service dogs i think it um i think it really

depends on what our what our final end product needs to look like so we um uh we do a lot of labradors i will say that we uh we do breed labradors we breed working line labradors um we've kept bitches for many years now because there has been such a shortage of uh good quality working labs um over the years um we actually just went to uh went to europe i think it was in may or june of last year right before the cdc changed their uh regulations oh man that's such a okay we went and picked up two labradors from uh europe uh and brought them back with us uh sort of right under the wire i think we were the week before the regulation changed or two weeks something like that but uh yeah we uh we do we do mamas we do shepherds we do crosses um as both single and dual purpose dogs um size gender those are not as important i'm assuming what's that size and gender are not critical right no no not at all um i i'll be honest with you i have and this is just personal preference but um i have a preference for females particularly for detection um um it seemed to be a little easier to manage sometimes uh the females do for me um and um but um um i can i can see that i mean i mean i really could see that not that i have exactly i can break it down why but i can see how a female would be more game about this kind of stuff than some boy that's gotta uh oh but what is that right yeah yeah yeah but a lot of a lot of your law enforcement uh a lot of a lot of working dog people shy away from the females um for whatever reason but uh yeah i seem to have a preference for them particularly in detection but uh yeah we um we train a variety of dogs we do um we've done pointers german short hair pointers yeah i've i've listened a little bit here and there and uh there there is this little kind of not necessarily a push but kind of being more aware of like why why are we not including some of those type of dogs in detection work um i think they're kind of entering a little bit the the field no they are um they are uh so number of years ago um labs were working line labs uh you know those suitable for detection were um you know pretty easy to come by i'll be honest with you they were very affordable really easy to come by um you just didn't see a ton of demand for them uh because people were uh really yeah it doesn't click it doesn't it doesn't match with what you think of a detection dog right yeah yeah well that or police dog right so they wanted shepherds and malinois um and i'll be honest with you uh 15 years ago 90 of the single purpose detection only dogs

that we were training were prick-eared malinois and shepherds now 90 of the single purpose 95 of the single purpose detection only dogs are retrievers or sporting breeds yeah so that that was a big shift um but our malinois and shepherds and and prick-eared pastoral dogs they come from europe we get them from uh uh uh vendor in europe that i've been working with for gosh almost 20 years now um so um long long standing relationship there uh i'm actually going next week to pick up tell me about selection tell me tell me about this this i'm curious about this stuff so you go you go you you have the drinks you have the things and here we go do do you go through the kennel or do they bring you the dogs and and and how just break down one for me that's interesting always it either way it really doesn't matter um it to me it doesn't matter how um here's like i i will tell you where i'm going with this because i i i think that uh uh and again like once you have a very long relationship and and things you feel that both parties are honest and and there's there's just a relationship that's based on time um then then there is that fairness and honesty but still there is times where there will be that dog that they know that it's not good but they have masked it and they will present it as a good dog what does it take for you to recognize that that that's not going to be the dog i'm looking for before you bring it all the way back to home because they are masters of of making a dog to do the things that they expect you want to see here here's what i'll say there's a couple things about it number one i don't really deal with that probably so much as other people and here's why as i told you we started our business almost 20 years ago and we were new uh we i had been training police dogs i worked at a different place training police dogs before we started our business obviously when i walked away from that business i lost any connections i had with that business so i had to find a new vendor out of europe and um we'd been in business probably four or five months and i received an email uh again keep in mind it's 20 years ago i got this email from a gentleman and um uh his english wasn't great even written english wasn't great um but i was in the i was in the market for a vendor so i communicated with him and i mentioned that his english wasn't great only because he had apparently reached out to lots of different people in the u.s similar to us who were selling police dogs and none of them would give him the time of day because his english was so bad

long story short we communicated via email talked on the phone a few times and he delivered dogs to me the very first time i bought dogs from him he delivered them to me in the u.s that's how eager he was to sell dogs period he was that eager he was starting his business about the same time i was starting mine he and i he and i made an agreement 20 years ago that if i ended up getting a dog that i couldn't use because of one reason or another that he would that number one i wouldn't pay him for the dog and number two he would pay to ship it back to europe that's an incredible motivator for a vendor not to send you a dog you cannot use wow yeah that's a that that definitely keeps everything in place because i mean you know you're in you're in this and and when when the vendor says okay well i'm giving you five really good ones you have to take number six also so that number six comes and now somebody goes to the school and typically is the guy that has no idea what he's getting and and basically that six dog is just dragged all the way to becoming a a working dog on the street that everybody from the beginning knew that that's not the right dog but here he is he is on the street yeah yeah and i'll say i've been incredibly fortunate i've probably received two of those dogs in 20 years but here's here's what i'll also say um and i think this is this is kind of important to say um for the for the industry itself there's there's a lot of people and i'm i don't know if you've heard this but you know there's a lot of people talking here in the last four or five years about how there's no good dogs left in europe and europe's being wiped out and they're being depleted and you know it's just you can't buy good police dogs in europe particularly when the police dog side of things and and i'll be honest with you i don't believe that to be true at all i don't think that's true at all here's what i think has happened um and this is just my experience what i think has happened is there are lots of great dogs in europe there are lots of really incredible dogs in europe i don't think there are a lot of perfect dogs in europe because again you got to understand from my perspective i'm not buying title dogs i'm not buying pre-titled dogs i'm buying i'm buying green dogs the raw material the open book raw material absolutely raw material and i think it's an open book it's raw material and you know as far as athleticism overall health dry requisite drives sociability environmental stability they're solid are they perfect dogs

absolutely not here's what i think has happened i think over the years the the level of dogs uh the training the overall training and skill set of these dogs it has declined some i think that happened after 9-11 i think when 9-11 happened the market got depleted on some level because because of the amount all of a sudden yeah overnight everybody needed a bomb dog right so everybody's going to europe buying dogs and damn i remember this time i remember even even working at the piers with uh with the cruise ships i mean any i need anything you walk a dog around you was a business at that moment yeah yeah and and um you know prior to 9-11 vendors like us you're going to europe and you're buying dogs that are two two and a half years old sometimes three and you're bringing them back to the us and you're you're bringing them in putting them in a program selling them to law enforcement everybody's happy law enforcement's willing to you know buy two three year old dogs because they understand that those dogs come with a level of maturity and aptitude for the work and they're just solid and the reality of it is what you see is what you get the dog's not going to change very much because he's two two and a half well 9-11 happens the european market gets blasted pretty hard and you got vendors in the us who've been selling these two three-year-old dogs now all of a sudden they can't find them anymore they can only get dogs that are 10 11 12 13 months old so i actually yeah i remember that's exactly how we twin years yeah so they convinced the us market hey here's what you need to do you need to buy this 11 month old dog or this 12 month old dog because you're going to get a longer working life out of it you're going to be able to work this dog for 10 years instead of eight why because you're getting it two years younger well we both know that that may not be exactly true so i think what has happened after after that's taken place over the years i think and and again i'll i'll catch some hate for this too i think those older more skilled dogs have definitely declined but i think the ability and skill amongst us-based trainers to build young dogs build raw material and turn them into remarkable and incredible police dogs i think that has has declined substantially and i don't think that there's enough people out there who are willing to take these younger dogs keep them for the period of time necessary to build them and turn them into really good police dogs why everybody's got it in their mind that they've got to do it fast right we got to buy them and buy them today sell them tomorrow

and and and and that's in my opinion not what's best for the industry it's not what's best for law enforcement and i think these claims that there are no more good dogs in europe are untrue i think they're some remarkable dogs in europe they're no perfect dogs so when i test dogs i do what i call and this is sort of my term for it so it probably won't mean anything to anybody i do what i call an inventory selection test so when i test a dog i'm simply inventorying what skill sets it may have where other people do selection testing looking for the perfect dog i'm not looking for the perfect dog i'm looking for a dog that has enough uh driving aptitude environmental stability and trainability that i can turn it into a really good police officer i'm not looking for a perfect dog and i think that's what what's happened too many people are looking for perfect dogs coming out of europe that have all these skills that they may have had 20 years ago i don't know why because these people weren't around 20 years ago i think they're hearing stories of well back in the day we used to get dogs from europe that did x y and z and and yeah he probably did uh the reality is those don't exist anymore so you know i think i think we as an industry need to need to improve on on our overall skill and ability to to really sort of build younger dogs that is an art form in my opinion it's it's way more art than it is science um you know people want to come in grab a dog not everybody but there's too many people i think in the industry want to come in grab a dog strap a collar on it force it to do what they want it to do and it you know expect it to to come out of the back side of that a viable police dog right back in the day people were buying dogs whose requisite drives were so high that they could strap a prong collar e-collar on it they could level the hammer on that dog and you know that dog's wreck drives would diminish diminish diminish but but still would be just enough to be a police dog now what you're getting you're getting dogs here and you need to build them up which makes which calls for a better training yeah right better understanding and better training although somebody could argue well way back then when the europeans were selling dogs and the americans didn't quite understand didn't have the skill and they were just selling some actually not good dogs kind of the opposite of what you're saying a lot of times i i would think they will just sell oh yeah this is a good dog and you should take it and then here is a whole department with some

just neurotic dogs that you know and and you start to kind of learn how to work with this type of dogs but that's not your average cool good working dog that you would train in a very different way than some neurotic basket right um and and so it kind of evolves in all sorts of directions um i remember i don't know if this is even now i kind of have stepped out of this a little bit but i know i know when i i mean i was you know i mean i'm coming from eastern europe i know like a lot of the slovenia slovakia i i lived in though i know i know you know like way back i mean we're talking 90s i've seen them like no you will retrieve a hammer or a prong collar just so it's metal and that's a statement right there that's like this is the dog look he would everybody loved that p2p test yeah is that still going on not that i'm aware i don't i don't if so i've fallen out of that circle a long time ago okay but that was i mean you know everybody's trying to make money and everybody's you know it's a tough one and now that you mentioned the the restrictions with the travel and i think it's becoming more and more difficult so if you have to bring five dogs from anywhere in europe where do you go what what's the airline how what's the process how hard it is today compared to five years ago yeah so yeah it's a lot harder a lot harder um a lot of embargoes um you're going into a major city um you know for us sometimes atlanta uh depending on time of the year maybe chicago maybe detroit maybe so pretty much anywhere that it can work out yeah yeah so it really depends it's a lot more difficult than it used to be really really does um kind of backing up though kind of give you an example i'll give you a i'll give you a real life example of sort of i think this sort of helps to solidify the statement i made earlier because again i know a lot of people are gonna a lot of people are not going to be very happy about what i see it as far as our our current skill level in the us we need to be better trainers those are your words i think um i mean i think i i need to be a better trainer i mean well you know we all do right to some level we we have to keep going right yeah but there's this dog right um belgian malinois two years old um imported from europe uh came from what appears to be you know pretty good stock uh came to the us it was a strong dog uh when i say strong dog very very uh and i'm sure you've met this type of dog before um they're mentally strong uh meaning that uh as long as you're fair with that

dog you're never going to have an issue however if you're not fair uh pretty good pretty good chance you're you're gonna you're gonna be made aware that that dog does not feel like you were fair to it if you know what i mean you're gonna come they might come after you you've crossed the line yep yep yeah and as you know those dogs are out there long story short this dog was purchased um by an agency who spent uh 14 and i know this i'll tell you why i know it in a minute but they spent fourteen thousand dollars on this dog now this dog was purchased as a green dog for 14 000. it was purchased from a u.s based vendor uh came from europe purchased from a u.s based vendor for 14 000. it was uh purchased by an agency a federal agency uh they took the dog in uh they worked with it for several months and they gave it away they deemed it to be untrainable how do i know this they gave it to us richard within a week we were contacted by a local police department who had purchased a green dog another malinois another dog that's going to keep you honest uh and again these are not land sharks these are not man eaters these are dogs that again they're going to keep you honest if you're not fair with them um they're not docile i'll say that by any means um same very similar situation spent about 14 grand on this dog um that dog was then given um to a bigger agency and the bigger agency was going to train it from beginning to end for this smaller department they were going to train it free of charge they kenneled this dog and kept it and trained it for a little over a year at the end of that year they deemed it to be untrainable and they gave it to us they got two dogs right now that were given to us that people spent over over 10 grand for the other dogs came in from europe they're both viable dogs because they were deemed to be untrainable so you know is the problem that there are no good dogs in europe anymore or is the problem simply as as we as we said that you know our our ability to work with these dogs and train these dogs and be very clear uh needs to get a lot better needs to improve and probably pretty quickly that's so difficult man that it's in this is in in detection this is in sport world this is in you know like i'll give you pretty much probably exact same example with with me breeding selling a dog selling a puppy and it just doesn't fit how the style of training is or the person has this vision of okay no there will be it's going to be a smooth ride and everything there there cannot be anything bumpy along the way because

because because they there is this kind of twisted understanding that all these good dogs they just flawless from from from the beginning to to being ready for whatever the task is and that's just not the case there there is like a i mean you have to recognize that just time and and you know sometimes my maturity um awareness all these things can click in a certain time and they may not be right at that moment present but the expectation so often destroys what is possible in the long run because the expectations are becoming very unrealistic and i think as good as social media is in a lot of ways it also created this kind of false idea that that there is that possibility of just flawless like and here you are you can be a world champion or you can be the master of detection or whatever it is and you had just a little something here that's not the real world that's just can like like you have to have a little understanding a little patience and you have to take a little time and typically when you do that that that's when the most wonderful things happen after that right yeah but they only put the best parts on social media i mean there's i i would consider myself a pretty good pretty good trainer reality is i can't train dog after dog day in day out without ever making a mistake i don't know that anybody can mistakes will be made nothing's perfect we have to identify the mistake recognize it on it and fix it and hope the dog forgives us for it like i mean that's a good trainer and just speaking about myself like i i like the bumpy road i i like to know that i can get where i'm going don't get me wrong but anytime there is a little bit of a oh that's the most interesting part that's like where you build whatever you need to build with that dog being trust being cooperation being whatever it is call it whatever engagement any all this salad word salad but this is the time when you and the dog from here end up here it it cannot even yeah it's very strange how uh impatient we have become and and same with the information i mean you i mean look at us i mean me included just swipe swipe this way this way boom boom boom and i and we're doing the same thing with dogs we're super impatient right now any any kind of training the struggles are beautiful when you know that there is the possibility to overcome it and then you appreciate the struggle itself you don't look at it as a this obstacle that just destroyed everything because it comes out uh um i mean what comes out of struggle is just priceless in my opinion

yeah you know the problem solving for me is is is really the best part to me the problem solving is the best part because because when you have the problem a number of things are going to have to happen you're going to have to you're going to have to put a lot of work and a lot of thought into why you have the problem how do you resolve the problem what is the plan what is the road to get you there and then it forces you to work more and work smarter with that dog and in doing that you oftentimes if you're doing it the right way you're oftentimes going to improve your relationship with that dog and take that relationship to a level you didn't have before the problem right kind of like a yeah i mean i mean even human relationships you know it's it's the the the when the problem comes whatever the problem is that's when things get tested and that's when you know if both sides are willing and have a way to resolve and come out better or not and anytime you come out better there is no comparison of the the strength of of what has been accomplished from that point on let's switch gears let's go let's go iacp what what what made you take the position because this is not the easy position the organization the the the the there is just a lot of you know like like there is growing pains that it is it's a it's a in my opinion organization that still hasn't quite find what it's possible and what where to go and and the power of it it's kind of you know for for a long time state okay yeah we are and we are doing this and this but but there is a potential there like a like a real potential but what what made you because that's just that's a that's a thing on top of everything that you're doing here you are you took off and you said okay i'm gonna i'm gonna go in and see what i can do to make the organization better what what happened well i'll have to back up a little bit um to how i ended up on the board to start with because that's a that's that's a pretty interesting that was a pretty interesting transition um so like i said been a been a member for a really long time uh our business has been platinum gold platinum sponsors for a number of years many years um truly sincerely i believe wholeheartedly in the mission of the icp i absolutely uh i sort of feel like it is on some level um and this sort of my opinion here but i feel like on some level it's really sort of the last stand against um restriction regulation you know it it's it's really the this probably the strongest and one of the only organizations out there that are fighting for the freedom of professionals to be able to

utilize whatever resources they deem best for their dogs and clients to do the most good for the most people plain and simple i've believed in that mission i've believed in those values for many many many years um a number of years ago we we uh as a business me personally i didn't feel like we were we were being uh represented very well by the organization i'll just be honest with you but it just didn't uh i and it got to the point where i got pretty upset about it so i i came to the board of directors of the icp initially as the disgruntled sponsor so that's the that's the sort of the funny part about it because i you know i had a lot of conversations with my wife and i'm like you know i think the organization is is kind of the the last stand that we have i think it's you know the only thing that's that's keeping you know nationwide training tool bands from just taking over tomorrow blah blah blah blah blah and i'm like but but i just feel like right now they're you know they're not not doing what they should so you know we talked about it and and and really sort of decided i had two ways to go we could just step away from the organization stop sponsoring it don't renew our membership or put my name in the hat to be on the board and see what happens and so i did and uh i got a phone call i was really surprised because i'll be honest with you um i i had had a few heated very heated discussions again because that's that's sort of the state i was in uh about our sponsorship and representation of our business and that sort of thing uh our membership um but i did get a call and they said yep we'll we'll have you on the board so i joined the board in january 2024 um i was on the board uh about a month and a half and they said hey look our secretary's leaving um in like two weeks we need somebody to step up and take that position i volunteered for that um i went on the board um with the um goal or objective of making significant and substantial change within the organization um so i was willing to really sort of volunteer and do anything i felt like i could do to make a difference uh and then as a lot of people know our president tracy at the time she had some things uh personal things going on that where she had to step away a little early um and that was uh in middle into june um so i'd only been on the board for about six months and um we needed we needed a new president and uh the balance of the board members um reached out to me and said hey look what do you think about this and we had a number of conversations and um i ended up taking that position july 1st

um so i take this position july 1st and we've got a conference to put together first week of september uh with granted we'd already been working on it don't get me wrong we'd been working on it on it since the beginning of the year but now all of a sudden this is sort of kind of in my lap to make this a success and and then we did uh the conference was in uh portware texas uh you know based on all the circumstances it it went quite well um so that's sort of my journey from disgruntled sponsor to president of the acp okay okay how how does it feel like uh um as far as the people you're working with right now are you guys because i i tell you like i i mean i i've been in so many different organizations and associations and and so forth and when it's volunteer type of work or even if it's not if there is a couple of people or even one person that kind of really dramatically deviates from from the collective idea it becomes a problem do you guys feel pretty connected and having some good idea where iacp should be going now how how is that amongst yourself there yeah so um when i came on the board i think there were only five five four or five people uh because um you know it was it seemed like there was some difficulty in getting people to to come on the board um and yeah you know with a lot of organizations you hear of conflict amongst boards and you know that sort of stuff um and and it seems like historically the icp has had some conflict amongst people on boards and people in committees and that sort of thing i'll be honest with you i've not experienced that at all since since i've since i've been on the board of the icp fortunately i i have not and it's it's been great um you got right now we got marlene fabian uh karina just just her term just ended and um serena and we've got some new folks coming on we've got a we now have a secretary we now have a treasurer um positions that were unfilled for quite some time um right now you know with the the folks who've been on the board for the last year we've got a a really cohesive group i feel like we got a really cohesive group lots of good communication going on where you know we i think we all um share the same vision for the organization uh in large part um you know there's not a lot of conflict it's not no fighting i'm not saying we all agree on every single thing but we have the ability yeah we have the ability to to express our differences and and and resolve them and and make decisions based on what's best for the organization and what's best for the membership

um we do have some new folks coming on the board uh which is pretty exciting i'm i'm pretty excited about it um we've got some new folks coming on uh counting our our secretary and officers we're going to be we're going to be at nine or ten folks on the board yeah starting 2025 so pretty excited about that um we're going to get more hands on deck get new ideas coming in um we've got some some folks who have been in the industry for quite some time uh some of them i just met didn't know about them but they they've been doing it as long as i have if not longer uh so they bring a tremendous amount of experience to the table and and we're we are super i am particularly super excited about where we have the opportunity to go that's great what do you think it's or at least i mean to to i guess twofold question what is most you think challenging for you as a president and then what is what are the challenges of iacp as an organization like the the current status um challenges for me as president um honestly it's nothing maybe challenge is not the right word but like uh um uh what what is the vision where is the do you have something where you're like that would be really cool but i don't think we can make that happen no i don't yet um i've not gotten there i think everything everything we've come up with i'm like it might take some time but we can get there we can have this organization has the ability to get there we absolutely do um we've we've made a bunch of changes in the last six months we've gotten certifications back online we've uh we do have a new website we're still tweaking and working yeah still tweaking and working on that we're running into a few little a few little tech issues that we hope to have resolved pretty soon got a new website up and running we've got conference scheduled for 2025 coming up in savannah in july and the lineup looks interesting it should yeah we're pretty happy people pretty happy with that yep tell me about the certification stuff because i i um and i'm sure many people are curious of of what what when we talk about certification what what are we talking about um so right as it stands right now um we have two certifications available um the first one is probably the the simpler of the two definitely the simpler of the two and that's the uh what's referred to as a prong collar knowledge assessment and it is simply a knowledge assessment and it is um it's done online uh all you really need in order to to get through that assessment is some basic knowledge experience familiarity with you know best

practices and uses with bronch collar and the second one is the cdt certified dog trainer exam it is definitely more in depth uh it's going to require folks to you know have reference letters from clients and case studies that they uh complete and turn in we do now have that certification automated so it's all online and can be done and completed um and who evaluates who grades how how's what's going to be the back-end process of this how do you give somebody that uh i mean because it's a it's a like honestly i would be oof i would i'm getting goosebumps like because you have you're giving credential to somebody and and it's based on a test but you don't know necessarily the person as a person and and so on how how what what are you guys thinking um again the cdt requires a lot of information so we're looking at uh people cv resume background experience uh you know we're doing background checks on people to make sure yeah so again they're delivering these pretty um um significant case studies um and and again getting feedback from those clients direct feedback from the clients that they worked with about the results etc etc um that then is all submitted to a panel of people and that panel changes because there's a basically a pool of people and if you were to submit a cdt you don't know which individuals within that group it's going to end up going to um but it's a group of individuals and even at the end you wouldn't know right right you know you'll never know no it's complete um it's all completely on the back end of it you would not know who graded your cdt um but uh it's going to go to at least three different evaluators and those three different evaluators are going to take independent looks and reviews of it and going to grade each section of it to develop a final grade once all three of them have a final grade those three final grades are combined in a metric and then you get a passing or failing score so it it's it's intense i don't want to use the word intense it's definitely doable if you've been training dogs for a while you've got some experience working with clients um it's definitely doable um i don't want it i don't want it to sound that is something that i don't think aacp had before right was that it was it was they had the cdt before but it was it was incredibly cumbersome. It required the person to email stuff in and mail stuff in and things would get lost in the mix. And it was very complex and it got pretty complicated and created frustration. So one of the things we did this year was we streamlined that process. Yeah. So the difficult question that I would have,

maybe it's not difficult, but in our, just in like the dog training community that actually does use some form of aversive in their training, there is potential of abuse. And often there is abuse. How and is it even visible? What would AACP, if anything, I mean, how would that be something that AACP can say, okay, well, we can revoke membership. We can, like, are there any conversations? Is that something of concern? Because that's, like, probably one of the biggest, I think, problems that if we can resolve to some extent, we will be in a better place. Because I think it's important that somehow we deal with that. But everybody is afraid, probably including myself, to point finger at somebody else that has a business and is doing whatever, unless, like, dogs are dying in their hands and so on. Tell me about this. What are you guys thinking and doing? So the organization has and has had an ethics committee. Part of ethics, right? Something. Yeah. So there's an ethics committee. Right now Marlene is overseeing that particular committee. That may change down the road. But right now she's overseeing it. I don't know if you know Marlene, but she's also the one over the legislative committee, and she does a fabulous job on that side of the house, too. So the ethics committee is there primarily for the purpose of receiving inquiries and information regarding, you know, again, neglect, abuse, those types of things, to sort of give the organization a bit of a component that allows us to police ourselves. Because, again, the last thing the organization wants is to have individuals who are, in fact, engaging in abuse or neglect as part of its membership, plain and simple. Do we get complaints submitted through there? Yeah, absolutely. They're looked into. And, you know, oftentimes it's unfortunately pretty clear that there's something going on. However, most of the time that we get those, you know, face value, you look at them, the person's been arrested by law enforcement, so forth and so on for neglect or whatever. But when we get them, we look and they're not members of our organization. So because of that, we have no ability to do really anything with it. You know, it's just sort of filed away. Fortunately for us, they're not members of our organization, right? So we do get those. And, again, if they are members, the ethics committee has a very clear process that they will get it. They will go through to make sure that those people, if they're engaging in that type of stuff, are not going to be members very long. Yeah. I mean, because sometimes also on the other side of things, there is probably a lot of false red flags

where you just take a snippet of five seconds of something, and you're trying to make a conclusion of what that would look like 15 minutes later, or a week later, or two months later. And this becomes so tricky and so difficult and kind of unfair to, I mean, hopefully nobody, hopefully all of us have learned not to judge something by five seconds of some video, right? It's just not the right thing to do. What about, what do you guys ever think of, is there any communication? I wouldn't even go that far to say collaboration, but any form of communication with APDT or any of these organizations? How, how, where are we standing with them today? Yeah, no, not, not that I'm aware of, not at this time. No, no. Those, those organizations who pretty, are pretty clearly, um, yeah, they have drawn a very deep line in the sand that it's just not, not really even, you know, the, the use of pain, fear, and purposeful discomfort, and, and all this, things that actually, when you read it, when you hear it, you will say, yeah, I agree with that, but, how do we go forward? I mean, what, like, like, if, if anybody that's listening to us talking, and are not members of IACP at the moment, why would, why should they be a member? Well, there are a number of reasons. Um, the first thing I would ask them to do is to go to the website and read the mission, mission and values of the organization. Again, that's what, that's what drew me into the IACP. That's what keeps me, um, at this point working for the IACP, putting in the work every day for, for the organization, even though it's volunteer. Uh, I get out and put in, I put in some time for the organization every single day. Why? I believe in, I believe in that mission. Um, I believe as a professional, I should retain the ability again, to make the decisions that I feel are best for, for the dogs and clients that I'm working with. Period. Um, if somebody agrees with that, if somebody believes in that, then they shouldn't hesitate. They should, they should immediately click on the member section and, and join. Plain and simple. Uh, they should support the organization. What is the membership? I mean, we're not talking, I mean, it's, it's actually a symbolic sum. It's, it's really, we're not talking something ridiculous, but the numbers of membership actually really, really matter for when, when, and, and again, like, I mean, way back, I don't even know why and how I got into the legislative committee, but I remember us stopping few times, those push for shock collar bands and in different areas in, you know, and it was IACP still has that image and power to put a stop on, on kind of nonsense like this and say, Hey, there is another side.

And I think just for that, being a member to where it adds one more person in the numbers, I think just that is a must for anybody that cares. I don't know. Absolutely. We've got, we've got a number of membership levels. Professional is, the most expensive. You mentioned the price. It's $125 a year to become a professional member. Associate members, a hundred bucks. Those are differentiated by level of experience. And we've got supporting members, affiliate memberships. So, you know, again, I think started 65 bucks a year. As you put, yeah, absolutely. The more people we add to the, the roll call, the roster of the organization, the bigger voice we have, potentially the bigger voice we have. Um, you know, again, if you believe in, you know, what the organization stands for, you should absolutely join. But more importantly, in my opinion, you should get involved. Again, the organization has committees. The organization has work groups. The organization has right now, a lot of things going on. Uh, you know, our legislative committee, the one you talked about being on before, continues to work day in, day out. Um, there, there are collar bands right now going on in Singapore and, uh, being proposed in, you know, places like Singapore and, um, Ecuador and, and places where honestly me, uh, as long as I've been in this industry, I would never expect to see them there. I really wouldn't. I mean, it's like, man, these things are popping up in places. I really wouldn't expect to see them. You know why? Um, I, I have a kind of idea why that's happening. I think it's because, and again, I mean, I'm kind of like you. I, I just go all over the world and, and people, let's say in, I don't know, let's speak, whatever, Columbia, they would think, well, the Germans have banned it, the Belgians. It must be the right thing and the cool thing to do. not realizing that they just got tricked and trapped into it and they wish that they can get out of it. And, and there is this, like, like really people think that this is the right thing because, uh, of how it gets presented around the world. And not realizing that they are very actively trying to reverse it. And in, and in some cases, I think this will happen. There is just, I really believe that this will happen in, in some countries. I don't know how far it's going to go, but I think that's, uh, what goes on in the world right now. They, they, uh, countries that are kind of going along, they think it's the, the cool thing, the, the right thing. And as far as volunteers and help, like if somebody wants to say, okay, I can spend a little bit time off working on my algorithm on social media and making these videos every day and post them.

And instead I can leave a little time and contribute to the bigger picture of things. There is a need for that, right? I mean, I see people need that, right? Absolutely. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Again, we, like I said, we've got a number of, uh, number of committees and work groups and, um, yeah, it, it, it is a 501c6 nonprofit. So, uh, we, we're, we're all volunteer organizations. So everything is done, uh, with the exception of two office staff, everything is done by volunteers, my position and the balance of the board of directors. We're all volunteers. Um, so we, we contribute our time and, you know, some, sometimes of the year, it's a lot more than others, um, to make, make the, uh, make the organization move. Uh, so yeah, we've got education committee, service dog committee, legislative committee. Um, we, we actually have a European members committee. I know. I was just going to talk about that. I was going to bring this up. Well, well, well, how is the, um, this is a little bit difficult, I think, in, in Europe, in, especially in certain countries in Europe, how do they look at IACP there? Um, I think. So I was, I was actually for, for quite some time, I was the director of oversight for the European members committee. So I got to know all those, all those individuals, guys there. We got, uh, folks from UK, Dom's from Germany, um, uh, Netherlands, uh, now Portugal, Belgium. So, you know, some, as, as I hate to put it, some affected countries. Right. Um, and, um, I've had a lot of conversations with those guys about sort of state of the union, for lack of a better way to put it there in Europe. And, and so that I have a better understanding of where they've been, where they are and where they hope to go. Um, unfortunately, unfortunately, the ICP doesn't have the, obviously doesn't have the same name recognition in Europe that it does in the U.S. And that's something that that particular committee is working really hard to change. They're, they're doing, um, they're trying to be really active on social media. They're doing podcasts. They're doing, uh, Q and a sessions to try to raise awareness about the organization, the benefits of, of being a member, uh, getting involved and, uh, you know, working to try to create a different situation for some of those folks. Um, really good group of really, really good. I've gotten to know, uh, uh, all of them quite well. And I mean, it's a, it's a, it's a superb group of individuals on that committee and they're, they're putting in the work. They really are. That's good. And, and I mean, these are, these are, especially in Europe, it's, it's kind of very important that the people that are doing the work, have a good image themselves. Right. And,

and because you're, Europe is, I mean, they are just so brutal of, as far as, you know, like I, I was making a joke one day, like, I can have a link of a prone collar on my key chain, on my car. And that would already tell the majority of people that are in dog training there, what I stand for. is, it is, it is insane. And, like, right now I'm going to go to, I mean, like, in a week or something, I'm going to England to make a very cool presentation, actually a few presentations, that are not even related to, that they're just overall very educational dog training things. but you know you're going there and you have this lunatics that are you know trying to get you stopped trying to get you stopped trying to convince every every person that owns a dog that there is a better way that there is more humane way that we don't need to bring pain and we don't need to do the fear and discomfort and shocking and use all these words but they this has been going on since early 90s and it really picked up in the 2000s the reality is they have failed to prove that they can do something equally good forget about being better like like any little study with five dogs or 50 dogs it's not enough like if i want to learn how i can be better i don't think i can even sign up for victoria steelville academy i don't think they're gonna let me and then would i it's kind of like well there is a better way but you already are in the dark side so far that we forget about you and is that where do you see this i mean do you think this can come to some place where we can accept each other or like i've given myself up the idea that we can convince each other because that's just like that's absolutely we cannot convince each other the reality that i see i'm fine do what you want to do but when you don't understand you don't have the knowledge and you don't have a reason to talk all that nonsense that you're talking about against somebody it's not a like i don't see this ever coming together to any level like i think we we just have to continue to stand our ground and do good things and allow them

as we always have allowed them to do good things but i do not like i i've myself given up on trying to convince the people that are in those extreme groups you know there is plenty of trainers that are curious that are trying and choosing well i want to train my dog without aversive i mean that's cool i you know that's your choice and and you're accomplishing something the only time i probably not probably but the only time i have a issue with that is when we're gonna say well we tried really everything we've exhausted any option and the best thing to do for this dog is to euthanize it but we haven't even told the dog forget about doing anything more but just told the dog no that's a bad idea don't do that and but even then i'm you know i i in a way wish that that owner will look for help elsewhere simply because they don't want to give up and and want to exhaust like really truly exhaust their options before they make that hard decision because life and death is it's a it's a clear cut right and if i have a if if my dog is or my kid or you know anybody that i care and i've tried a lot of things and it's at the point that i i'm like you know i'll go to some witch i'll do some brucha or baba yaga whatever like i mean i'm at the point that i i want to save my dog or i want to save my kid from canister whatever it is and i this is like my biggest problem with them when they say that everything was done and we're not touching this part that's not gonna work that is the reason why we're here and all get so confusing and people people buy that i don't know i'm rambling here i think there's um do i think we'll ever come together no i don't i don't i don't see that in the foreseeable future i really don't do i do i believe that both um belief systems can coexist i think that's our best hope right now um i think i think the balanced community and i'm not trying to be um super critical here i'm just trying to make a statement based on what i believe i think the balanced community unfortunately has done a pretty poor job historically of educating people and i think that that's been a bit of a problem because they're all so busy training people's dogs and helping to resolve behavioral issues and keeping dogs in homes whereas others on sort of the the opposite side of that um

i guess for whatever reason simply has a lot more time to uh create content and you know you do a simple google search uh and this is a conversation i've had a number of people you do a simple google search about training tools and you know the first two and a half pages are populated with articles written by the force free community about how training tools are terrible is that something that balanced trainers could change absolutely put pen to paper sit in front of a keyboard craft articles content and useful information that's truthful and and and direct uh that people want to to to look at learn from and read the problem is because we've sort of taken a back seat on the content production side of things and the education side of things we've given we've sort of given the stage to the opposing side we we walked off the field you know we walked off the field uh and and now they're the only ones that are really sort of out there um i think that's you know a super easy solution to level the playing field on some some some of these situations is you know education education education the problem is in in some in some part the problem is their rhetoric just sounds good you know the reality is it sounds great to the majority of the public you know you're you're not gonna you're not gonna cause pain you're not gonna you know create discomfort you're you know if you if you do you know x y and z you know look at a prong collar it's not the most appealing training tool um i love them beautiful things if used properly but the reality is i can't sell it to somebody as um looking like something other than uh medieval torture device the reality is that's what it looks like it's that's not what it is we all know that we all know that that it can be an incredibly valuable tool the reality is it just ain't real pretty um but can we educate people can we do a better job of showcasing how uh the proper and effective use of these training tools in capable hands have changed the lives of both dogs and their owners yes i don't think we've done enough of that historically i just don't and i think we need to make that uh priority moving forward and maybe also somehow the the whole force free communities um because they're so much invested in this fight they support each other blindly without like okay no he's for free therefore i don't care what they are doing but they they're on my side so let's go right to where we are way more careful to which person you want to actually say yeah yeah you're you're good and probably it's also because sure um the the some some of the training methods you know they

they're not not quite the way it should be um but again there is that other side like i'm just thinking out loud because uh uh any force free uh uh advocate like uh from from like the big big advocates they would be like well even if you fuck up some you reinforce whatever it's not the end of the world but it's actually is the end of the world for many dogs it it you are not able to rehabilitate a problem dog and you're giving up way too soon so it is a problem and when when you say well if you like i've sometimes if i really am one-on-one with somebody they will be okay yeah of course it's it's works but you need this experience and you need all these things and most people don't have that kind of knowledge and the reality is that when you like for most of those when you when you do any kind of behavior rehabilitation specifically and you're trying to go all force free you need way more knowledge you need way more time you need way more structure i mean you need to set up so many things and for so long that most people are like okay i mean i'm all about it but eventually i need to see some we need to be able to accomplish something but they will always go back to that and they will say well even if you fuck up anything with force free no harm is done and that's just so not true not at all and back to your earlier point yeah you're right they're that group that community is singing from the same hymn book while the balance community on the other side is arguing with each other over how a prong collar should be fitted because your dog's wearing it looser than i would put it on or you're using the e-collar in a way that i wouldn't condone or recommend i do it different with my clients and yada yada yada the reality is is if if you your dog's wearing a prong collar way looser than i would ever put it on mine but it works for you and your clients and it's not harming the dog and i i do it completely different but it works for those dogs and clients and i get results for them to keep those dogs in their homes and it's not harming the dog should we really be spending our time and unfortunately just spinning our wheels infighting with each other while this other group again is committed to making sure that neither of us get the opportunity to argue over those tools anymore because they're going to be banned yeah it's a tough one i know now people certain people that are listening will be like oh yeah but Ivan is always looking down on certain types of certain ways of how somebody else using electric color and

i can disagree but it's not like i i think all of us ultimately have to disagree when things are done really bad i mean that's at least a very good start and that's a very difficult place how do you like where where is that line that you say well you you're starting to be an ethical trainer from here on with what you're doing that's not easy and iacp not that it's possible but it cannot be really i don't i don't know but i think iacp can have some position statement how the avsa b and all of them it's like okay no these are the shitty our training position statement they're just total nonsense but i'm so torn between like regulation or no regulation whatsoever and where i am today i am really not about regulation i really believe in do what you think i mean encourage education encourage to be better and if you prove that you are just not a person that should be training dogs then somehow there's gotta be penalties and the penalties that i see they're already in place by you know i mean animal care and so on there is there is ways to to do that but it becoming harder and harder like i watch balance trainers really trying to talk and show things in a way that with the sole purpose to please the force-free community it's like oh this is a whatever it's gonna tickle or it's you know and oh first we need to do this and only then we will do this where clearly we can just take care of what needs to be taken care of but there is this overly caution cautious approach of a lot of trainers that as i hear them and as i watch them on social media i know that everything in that little clip that they're trying to show is to please the force-free community and that's the wrong take but we went too far in it you know i don't know not easy it's not but you know you talk about consequences for being a bad trainer

and regulations yeah i mean but but there's also consequences from the clientele you know if you're if you're doing you're doing a poor job sooner or later your clientele is going to put you out of business on some on some level regulation you know a lot of people ask me about that do you feel like professional dog training industry should be regulated should there be licenses required etc etc i am convinced that if that were to if that were to be if a group were to be put together or a committee would be assembled to to start that process in the us in the us today i am convinced that it would be populated by the forest for a community period so with that being said i am 100% against any of that right now i think that's the only reason they're trying to push regulation is to i mean they're just trying from so many angles to take over and fortunately it's not happening and again i i don't think it we i think where we are as far as a lot of good work is happening more can be done we just need to support a little bit more each other as you said we need the membership of aacp i think it's just super super important if you're training dogs and if you are in agreement and and you're you know you you cannot afford not to be a member because like you really just cannot afford not to be a member um conference and you can make a difference yeah you can make a difference there there can be significant and substantial change i i truly believe in that um and and i'll give you i'll give you one example that i'm pretty happy about um we uh well you met you met magdalena right from paul and she works works here um and she runs she she runs and spearheads our shelter program uh we go to the shelter every week we take a group and we work with shelter dogs and as you know uh pretty common practice amongst the shelters and and those types of facilities within the united states that training tools absolutely of any kind pretty much are not allowed we we began to work with our uh our local shelter quite some time back and and did it take us some time yes did it take a lot of effort yes did we convince them through simply through education uh did we convince them to allow us to use bronco training tools with dogs uh to to to help resolve some issues that they were having with dogs to help get them adopted we did we did and and since then we've we've had the ability and opportunity to continue to use those tools and the adoption rates it has made a tremendous difference with adoption rates the other thing that we're doing is you know once once that dog's adopted they get to come to our place for free several free lessons so that we can work specifically one-on-one with that owner while that dog's in that new home if that if not all of them but if that dog's um uh if we're

implementing a training tool and a plan for that particular dog they're getting the knowledge they're getting the education before they're using it uh and man it has made a tremendous difference in a place where I never thought where I never thought we would be able to use training tools so you know it can be done but it it does require some work you're gonna beat your head against the wall you're gonna get frustrated um but you know I think it's important to to stay the course yeah shelters are really like like any any dog trainer that has a little bit of time but even as an experience for yourself working with this kind of dogs and this kind of environment it's so valuable and when you when you it's hard to argue when there is that dog all the way in the back of the shelter that nobody can take out and all of a sudden it starts to go on a walk and it starts to play and you know like and and everybody starts to see that and you can agree all along with okay yeah we're gonna do this but let me take him on a walk and next thing you know there it's like right in front of your eyes and and now you have your ideology but then you have that dog that you felt so bad and you pretty much scratched him off and now he's going on a walks and now he's not just doing the matrix in his kennel run and and so on and I think that's arguably the best place where dog trainers can show that hey there is we can we can help some dogs not all dogs but there are dogs that we can help I think shelters are really and and as you say there there will be it's not easy to break through and you have to go along and maybe maybe you have to try in a few different ones and maybe not the very big ones but but the more places people start to see that there is all all they need to see is that there is options and you can choose if you want to go that way or not but especially in the shelter when we say well he's been here for 10 months nobody is walking him he's only causing problems there is room we need to make room and at this point if you say well let me give it a try for a week what what do we have to lose at that point right that can be opportunities these are I think opportunities for dog trainers to to do something good I don't know what are you doing what what's for you right now what's exciting besides running the businesses and I mean you're extremely busy I think I'm busy I think you're if not as equally busy or more but what what on the side of all the madness and things that need to you need to move around are you what are you doing training I'll be honest with you it's it's again because our business is multifaceted it does provide lots of opportunities for training different things and you know getting involved in different stuff

supposed to go to supposed to go to Denmark this year teach a cadaver seminar water water cadaver seminar actually teaching at a number of conferences this year we're we're putting on the ICP conference we've got some seminars coming up at our place you know teaching people really is something that I you know absolutely love love to do is is teaching people and I like the variety I really do I like to go teach about cadaver dogs I like to teach about detection I like to teach about service dogs you know so the variety of it keeps me keeps me waking up every day wanting to go do it we've got another another kind of cool interesting project we're hoping will come to fruition this year in Africa so we're keeping keeping our keeping a lid on it but keeping our fingers crossed hoping that will that one will pan out because it's it's it's a it's a pretty cool one hoping to make some headway this year in the sea turtle space a lot of people have heard me talking about it we want to try to develop a better program for training dogs for sea turtles something I've been working on since last summer what exactly what is that about like protection of sorts or what yeah teaching teaching basically it's detection dogs and you're teaching them to locate nests soon after they're okay oh wow yeah it's a bit of a conflict because you know those marine biologists you know most of them would love to have dogs readily available to come out and find nests the problem is once they find a nest they're not going to let you within 100 yards of it so acquiring and developing good training aids and good training program for that has made it difficult so as you know we've done quite a few conservation detection dogs and that's one of the things we love you know we've done bumblebees and bat poop and you know a lot of different things and we want to try to delve into the sea turtle world a little more and see if we can create some improvements with the detectability of it I think you did have something right yeah we did one with Jacqueline yeah on the bumblebee detection tell people about the podcast how they can go into it as I said I'm going to put all this in a description of the podcast but you had a cool name of the podcast yeah it's a life of dogs is the name of it and it's it is just a full transparency for people who may want to listen to it it is not a it is not a how to train dogs podcast it is not really a dog training podcast it's a it's more of like human interest stories that involve dogs so we've got stories about a lot of different things we we finished up season two we're hoping to get season three going it's something I do because I enjoy it so it's inconsistent I'll tell you that the first two seasons are done but we've got we've got Trevor's story on there zero zero is the name of that episode zero zero it's kind of a play on 2020 vision he is zero zero that one came from him not us so

we've got episodes on the rat hunting dogs of New York we did an entire series on the 2020 Iditarod we've done yeah those were all very cool ones too that's kind of conservation anti-poaching dogs in Africa so yeah it's like I said more more human interest stories so how is like I kind of I know I'm just jumping around right now but let's say you're going to go to Denmark how are you I mean Denmark is they do have restriction on tools and so on how do you navigate when you go to countries when you know that you can convince them but you know that you don't have time to even go there because you have to show you know it's not going to happen how do you is it frustrating or how do you go with when you go to country that it's just they're already so set in and the moment anything comes outside of what is accepted as the norm right now they will just tell you you're a mean person or something and you lose all the respect in an instant of just saying one word yeah fortunately for me like I said I'm going there for a for a detection seminar so training tools most likely not going to be a topic of conversation however you know if it comes up again I have very clear opinions and beliefs about it I do not hesitate to share my experience and opinions with people whether they like it or not plain and simple you know again I've talked to a lot of folks in Europe who are impacted by training tool bands granted I've not talked to everybody but again have a bit of a network in Europe of folks I talk to I'm not sure who voted all this in because I failed so far to meet anybody who is on board with it everybody that I've met with everybody I've talked to has been pretty adamantly opposed to the legislation and regulation so again I think from my understanding at least in a couple of those countries over there it was those regulations got pushed through by uninformed legislators people who were making decisions who had little to no information about training tools and that honestly that's what scares me about those things being proposed in the U.S. because again these legislators you know they're passing regulations and legislation that they didn't read you know was buried in a bill of 3,000 pages or you know they're making decisions about things they simply just don't know anything about or they only know what little someone from some particular group has told them about or some lobbyist has told them about and that's the part that for me is incredibly scary about training tool bans regulations and licensure in the US but we do catch it on time here that's the difference I think we were fortunate to learn the lessons of

Europe and how sneaky things happen there and I know when things get presented in the States they make them believe that everybody is in agreement and this is the right thing to do and all of a sudden dog trainers go to these meetings IACP gets involved and and so on and any politician that sees that oh this is not a clean cut then they they're smart enough to say I'll step out of this and I think this is the good thing and again once again this is why just just joining IACP is so important just just for this nothing else because IACP is always any anywhere that happens including as you said being Singapore or somewhere they they would contact IACP even though this is such a far-fetched out of the country situation but here I mean we've been able to stop the nonsense for many years now very successfully everywhere and there have been so many times where they would think okay well we can crack that door open it's like no no it's not going to happen that way yeah I think you're right and I think that's probably what made the biggest difference with the San Francisco band you know it was like people people like you and others calling in you know back to back just back to back people calling in saying hey hold on here's here's been our experience with training tools and I think prior to that yeah you're right they'd only heard one side of the story yeah it's so important that we like oh every everybody that agrees with us in this don't don't sit back and hope that somebody else gonna do it for you like you can be part of that and being part of that helps Europe that's what happened in the beginning they were like oh yeah they're just talking we're gonna be able to do what we wanna do this is just public relations and then little by little it snuck into them and here they are because and that's kind of the European mentality too in some ways grown up there and being all over the place it's like don't expect somebody else to do it like you you don't have to be like the the leader of some movement but you can be that small particle of it and it really really matters you know it really matters because then when they when when any politicians just like as you said in San Francisco they were they really believed that well this is clean cut everybody's on board this is the right thing to do and they were shocked that there was a resistance and it wasn't just a resistance there was like a incredibly valuable arguments coming out from very experienced people and it makes a difference every time and that's

why I believe that we can keep that situation in check but but still I really encourage everybody to be that small particle in the big jug of water to where you everybody can contribute and and yeah yeah one thing about you know the membership and the reach of the membership is you know having members throughout the United States having members in different countries it's incredibly beneficial for the organization and particularly Marlene and them legislated because they hear our membership hears about things happening locally that may be flying under the radar and they can they can send an email they can pick up the phone and say hey did you guys know about this and it does give the organization and that committee the opportunity to kind of get in front of that as you said and again start start educating people and start letting some of those people know hey this is not a one-sided thing there are there are two very clear and different views on this before we wrap it up how do you guys I this is just kind of almost my my own curiosity kind of question how does ACP decide like how do you say well that's going to be a good presenter let's see if we can get that person to come to the next conference how do you guys how does that work or like if somebody says hey I have a I want to present or how what's the mechanism to this and that happens we do get people who say hey I want to present they're not not always afforded that opportunity you know it's all based on a number of things I'll be honest with you I don't have the entire formula Marlene does she does a remarkable job of of lining up speakers and reaching out to speakers and getting all the logistics worked out like I said she's been doing that ever since I've been there and now how do we decide who she doesn't do that single-handedly we do it sort of as a group and again I think that's where right now having a board that's pretty cohesive has made things a little easier one of the ones that's speaking this year I was familiar with and suggested last year I suggested having Monique Udell there and having Jacqueline the bumblebee detection she came and talked about bumblebees and bumblebee detection and conservation so everybody sort of puts things in and we talk about what fits and what doesn't fit we don't want to be too heavy one way or the other we've had some feedback about having a little too heavy on the business side of things and less on training so we try to give people a good mix this year I think it's a little more heavy on the training side which I think people enjoy a little less on the business and marketing stuff even though there's a little bit there so that's I like the idea of also inviting and if they accept some of them will some of them won't but inviting force-free people it's like come come to ACP you know it's we listen

to whether the APDT is just there is just no I mean you there is no there is such a clear cut there it's really I don't know how they do it honestly I don't know how they just but they can say probably the same thing about us the thing is over the years we have over the years we have had force-free people and it's been fine it doesn't go into let's kill each other or some arguments on the stage or whatever it's like hey I mean I listen to all of them anyway so I'm sure everybody to some extent does have certain level of curiosity and you can get ideas for sure but it's dangerous just kind of what we were talking earlier about the detection and the police and conferences and stuff any conferences it's a there is this level of validation and and it can I don't know it can be tricky I guess as long as people know well no this is you know somebody's presentation their idea it's not like they are endorsed or are they endorsed like I don't know how IACP does right now with the conferences but but you understand that there's got to be some level of concern of okay we can invite somebody that is very popular at the moment and it can be very interesting and it can draw attention but as you go to a conference you always keep something in mind that that's the person that's presenting I don't know I don't know it's a tough one like I would have no idea how to do that if I had to do that yeah I think there's a perceived endorsement whether it be an actual endorsement I think anytime you put somebody on that stage at a conference there's at least a perceived endorsement by the audience going back to something you said I just want to mention that we did have an experience last year at conference where we had someone who attended who's pretty well known to be fairly outspoken about training tools and they made a comment to one of the board members about how surprised pleasantly surprised that they were at how welcoming our membership was I don't know what motivated them to come to the conference I'm glad they did I'm super glad that they came we had a couple people from that camp who attended conference last year and all of them were pleasantly surprised is what I'm understanding about how welcoming the membership was and the reality is we have speakers who are not

necessarily outspoken balanced trainers they come from other backgrounds and we feel like it's important for our membership to have the opportunity to have those varying perspectives but you'll never see that at those other organization conferences period you'll never see it do you guys do anything or have you thought about trying to create interest and somehow make people that are not that are really force free trainers but they're just curious and hey come you're welcome nothing you know like see it experience it maybe you prove to yourself that it's all bad or maybe do you guys try to reach out to community outside our own that's something that we're hoping to do a better job of in 2025 I'll be honest with you through targeted through some targeted ads and targeted social messaging there are still people who are on the fence so to speak I hate to use that term on the fence but the reality is their opposition to training tools is based solely on what they've read on the internet they don't have enough knowledge and experience to have an opinion in my belief so we would love the opportunity to have those people come and see and hear and experience what it's like and feel safe in the environment you're not going to be like oh you know that would be interesting if that happens that would be a good move I doubt that there's going to be a flooding but few people come go back home they talk I think it's something of interest to be considered in the future if I don't know but then again it might not be possible who knows flood starts with a trickle right where is the conference this year it's the end of July 27 through the first I think 27 through the first I believe we got pre-con one day of pre-con we've got a split pre-con day so if you come to pre-conference the day before conference there's actually two tracks you can go one's going to be on-site one's going to be off-site two different things and then like I said we've got a pretty good lineup of speakers and then we've got a lot of other things going on this year some new stuff again and that's in Georgia right Charleston South Carolina right on the river right on the river no sorry Savannah Georgia Savannah Georgia ! nice beautiful Hyatt it's at the Hyatt right on the river and it's a gorgeous place and last year's conference was at the Will Rogers Center so it was at a convention center didn't have a hotel attached to it we heard we tried something different we heard the feedback from our membership so we moved back to the hotel convention center combination this year it's the best because it's like you know everybody gets to hang out more than just the presentation time that's really the beauty of keeping it that way so that's that's very cool

yeah that's very cool Jason that was awesome I think hopefully hopefully people that listen at least like I once for one last time I will encourage anybody that cares that it really does matter to join the organization like the least thing if you don't want to volunteer if you don't want to if you don't have the time but if that's something that you care about and it frustrates you on the internet the least thing you can do is join the organization because it does make a difference so thank you man hopefully we see each other I mean I'm most likely going to show up at the conference but maybe even before that when we go because we're going to end up going up north doing some training with our dogs as it gets too hot here we're enjoying right now look at me I'm dressed like you I mean it's been for Florida now everybody's going to laugh at us but we're in the 40s and low high 30s but that's super cold for us we're just so not used to but those days are we train all day and it's very enjoyable pretty soon we're going to have to start thinking to go up so I think you're going to see me at your place at some point looking forward forward to it all right Jason thank you for really thank you for the conversation but most importantly like really really thank you for for just being part of AACP and volunteering your time to something that most of us really really care and it's very much appreciated man like really appreciate it so I will see you soon been a pleasure yeah again if people are looking it's IACP dogs dot order so go learn more about IACP thanks for having me on it's been a pleasure yeah man I'm gonna put everything all the links on the description so cheers see you cheers have good night you