E176: 줄리 다니엘스(Julie Daniels) - "말썽꾸러기를 위한 자기 통제"

And this week I wanted to talk about dogs who are kind of on the other end of the spectrum a little bit, kind of that wild child side of things. What kind of behaviors do we often see from dogs that qualify as wild child dogs? Well, I enjoyed Elen's podcast very much. And I do see this as being the compliment to that class. The wild child dogs present usually with a lot of impatience. And that leads to a lot of frustration, which presents typically as, let's say, naughty behavior. And there's so much we can do with that. It's all behavior, right? And so these dogs who are complementary to the sensitive dogs Elen is talking about, these are dogs who tend to stress up rather than stress down, who tend to throw a lot of behavior around when they're unsure what to do. So sometimes you look at a wild child dog and you think, wow, that dog is perfectly happy with the way things are going right now, even though he looks crazy, he or she looks crazy. And sometimes, often, I think, all too often, I look at a wild child dog and I think, the poor dog is so confused. The poor dog is so frustrated that those behaviors that they are throwing about, those aren't happy. So I can help. There's so much we can do to turn, you might say, inappropriate behavior. So wild child dogs are dogs who stress up, who tend to throw a lot of behavior at you rather than freeze, which Elen describes so well. Just because a dog is frozen doesn't mean the dog is in a low state of arousal. I think that's really important. It's a little bit easier to see, I think, in the wild child when the dog is in a very high state of arousal. So when you say kind of naughty behaviors, are we talking, you know, zoomies? Are we talking barking? I mean, what are we seeing? Well, it's whatever. Naughty is the construct. It's in the eye of the beholder. So I was just throwing it out there as, you know, a general picture that most people will describe, and it will look different to different people for sure. Okay. So for those folks who are kind of hearing that, and they're, you know, nodding a little bit, maybe they're thinking that sounds a little bit like their dog. You know, what are some of the things that we can do to really help these dogs bring their best self to our training and, you know, to our life with them? Well, yeah. As the always understated Karen Pryor taught us, it's all behavior, right? So the most useful thing to remember, I think, is that in the wild child, not surprisingly, arousal gives us a lot of behavior to work with. So I think the most useful thing to remember is that we're going to want to use action as well as

passive behaviors, that we don't make the wild child feel more comfortable just by, quote, unquote, calming them down. If you know what I mean, if that makes sense. It's all behavior, but the wild child comes with a set point that's a little higher in the action realm. And I think it's fair to use that. We can use that. Even as a reinforcer directly, I very often will raise the arousal state as a reward for the dog showing a lot of self-control. So we train them very differently from the more sensitive dogs. But, you know, it's almost unfair to say that a wild child dog is not a sensitive dog. They certainly can coexist. A lot of wild child dogs are sensitive. It's just that their action set point is higher and they tend to solve their problems by throwing more behavior around. So we've kind of danced around a little bit, but, you know, to get right to the heart of it, you know, what does what role does arousal really play in all of this? It plays a huge role. So I don't think that's surprising either. So let me approach it this way. Denise talks a lot about matching energy. The first class that I took at FENSE was her play class. And I took that class because I wanted to see how the boss did things before I started my own class. I was hired in 2014. I taught my first class in February of 2015. So this goes back more than five years. But the biggest takeaway for me on that class was her concept of or her work on matching energy, if you know what I mean. So she was talking more about sensitive dogs there where you sort of tone your energy down so that you don't overwhelm. But very often we tend to underwhelm the wild child dog when we try to match energy with a wild child dog. Just remember that set point is higher. You're going to drive them nuts if you come across like a robot with no personality and you try to introduce the session super calm, let's say, at an energy level of two out of ten because the dog happens to be at an eight and you need them, you know, in their prefrontal cortex and you're seeing crazy behavior and you want to train. So we need our prefrontal cortex for learning. And so these these limbic nutso behaviors are counterproductive, granted. But to say, OK, I'm going to start this training super, super calm because my dog is super, super crazy. That's not fair. And it's it's not always useful. So if you if you go back to Denise's thoughts about matching behavior, if your dog is at an eight and you'd like to train cognitive behaviors, maybe you want to go in at a six and gradually get down to the three where you want it. Or maybe you want it at a two.

But let's see if you can get to a two. First, try to get from a six to a three. Don't go in at a two because that's what you want and expect the wild child dog to all of a sudden, you know, be a different individual. That's not fair. Is that helpful? That's how I like like to think about the arousal that I'm looking at is how can I get where I want to go on the arousal scale? And how do I meet that dog where he can accompany me down to that lower arousal level? So that kind of down the ladder, kind of thinking about that. Do you have an example? Maybe I'm just trying to picture what it would look like to start with a dog at a at a seven or a six or seven in a training session. What kind of activities are we looking at here? I guess the easiest way to describe it is action, not just words, not just cues, not just a lie down and stay. Can you picture the dog just quivering in his own skin, trying to trying to comply with at that point, it would be a command such as lie down and stay. We can build the dogs through the use of pattern games and stations and a whole lot of tools that we'll be using. We can build the dog's desire to go to a place and remain there. But to just say that I need you to get out of your aid and get down to this too as quickly as possible. So I'm going to make you down stay. That's unkind. So I think the easiest way to look upon how that would look at the onset of a session would be action. So maybe it's a structured game of run over here and jump up to a hand touch and then go back to the station and then run over here and jump up to a hand touch and go back to the station. Do you see what I mean? So we're combining the use of patterns and the use of stations to actually create a dog who's ready to work. You might say one of the things that I love about Shade Weitzel's ready to work protocol is that she actually introduces movement. And many people forget that part that there's not just the hand touch and then I'll throw the toy. It's you want the dog to move his feet. And so the wild child kind of gives you that for free sometimes. But it's part of helping to meet the wild child at an energy level that gives you the toe in the door, so to speak, so that you can gradually calm the dog down. But just to demand that the dog be calm, I'm only going to work at a two. That's not fair. But to meet him at a six is not really that difficult if he's at an eight. It's not really that difficult. But you want to add the structure and the patterns to it so that you can actually get from the six down to the three or the two.

I love that question, by the way, because it's not just about, oh, you have to do what the dog wants. No, that's not really what I'm saying. But it's how to meet the dog where he can actually, you know, become the teammate that you'd like to have in your session. So knowing that you've got a dog, you know, likes to play a little high or that kind of goes into things with a little more motion, a little more throwing behavior at you, to use the way that you phrased it earlier. You know, I think a lot of people would think, you know, how do you counter that to actually have good sessions and avoid sessions going sideways? Well, that's where, you know, structure and careful planning comes in. And, you know, that maybe that's the only way to really clean loops. I know clean loops kind of come into those conversations a lot to kind of avoid getting those unintentional or superstitious behaviors that get built into whatever behavior we're shaping or we're training. Right. Can you just talk about that a little bit? Well, that's awesome. That's a perfect introduction to the way I think about it and the way I use props and structure the training session because you hit the nail on the head. You do want, and I love that, to avoid having the training session go sideways. That happens a lot. But yes, unintentional behaviors, superstitious behaviors, meaning the dog actually thinks it's an important part of the protocol when in fact you'd actually like to get rid of it. In your mind, it's garbage behavior and you'd like to clean that up, which, by the way, is a scientific term, garbage and cleaning it up. But anyway, we will use stations. Well, says the girl who teaches a six-week class about stationing, magic mats. But we will be using stations and we will use clean training loops. And even more important, I think, will be our discussions about using clean reinforcement loops. So I mentioned, I touched earlier on how I can use the raising of arousal as a reinforcer. And we certainly will do that, that the energy actually goes up after the click, so to speak, in response to the correct behavior, which presumably includes an element of self-control. One good thing about working with dogs like this, when you want to add stationing and structure and you want to pay attention to your mechanics and clean, clean training loops and reinforcement loops, one important thing to remember is that's not really difficult with a wild child because they don't get stuck so much. The wild child dog tends to offer behavior. So to tease out the piece that you want, it's not really that difficult.

You just have to be a good observer and you have to not be frustrated yourself by the fact that the dog can't calm down just because you want them to. I actually have a good example of that from when my daughter, who's now 36, by the way, was 13, she fell in love with a horse. She had outgrown her pony in pony club and needed a new pony club horse. And so it was a very sad time and a very important time looking for the right horse on a budget, let me add. And she fell in love with a Morgan, a purebred Morgan, actually. It was half old type and half new type and a very pretty horse. It turns out he was kind of stuck in a thoroughbred jumping barn and he didn't belong there. And his owner had, I won't say rescued, but had bought him out of a situation that wasn't ideal for him. And she didn't really have a use for him, but she cared deeply about the quality of his life. And he had become in that barn a real brat. Let's just say he was the wild child in the barn. And that's the horse, of course, that my daughter fell in love with. And teenager to teenager, they bonded. And she related to him so differently. The horse had vices. I'm not just saying he had some bad habits. I'm saying he would ram you against a wall. He would kick you. He would like this. This is not a good horse for a 13 year old girls pony club project. But let me just say, I could afford him because they were ready to practically give him away. But more important, I struggled with whether it was the right thing to do because she was in love. And it was clear to see that they had a connection immediately. My daughter did the cutest thing. He was in the arena with her and we were looking at him officially. And I was ready to say, I think this is a little too much horse for us. But we both were just attracted to him emotionally, which is not the way to buy a horse, may I just say. Pony club daughter. But he had so much to offer. He was so interested. And what my daughter did was the coolest thing. At age 13, she just dropped the lead shank and walked away from him. He was being a brat. And she just dropped the lead shank and walked away from him. And those little ears perked forward. And he turned his head around and watched her. And then he followed her. And they were the cutest thing. He came right down into his calm, thinking brain. And the two of them puzzled out the cutest little game together. She would back up and he would walk toward her. And then she would like stamp her feet and walk toward him. And he would throw his head and then back up a couple steps. And she thought that was great and laughed.

And the two of them had such a good time. So my daughter, on meeting this naughty horse, I was going to say nasty, but it's all it's just behavior. It wasn't personal. But he was not nice. She trained him through a pattern game to calm himself down. But remember, she's using an action game. She didn't just ask him to stand still. She knew better. At the visceral level, my daughter used action and patterning to actually train a behavior which looks to us to be polite in exchange for a behavior that looks to any of us to be dangerous and you should walk away. And so, needless to say, that became our horse. And boy, the stories. I used to write about him for the Clicker Journal, which was popular at the time. And we Clicker trained him. And he just became this amazing teammate for her. And that is the consummate wild child. So I hope that's helpful because if I just use a dog example, then everybody says, well, that's not my dog. My dog's different. Yes, yes. Your dog will vary. There's no doubt about it. But I think you can get what I'm saying about the concept of the wild child in any species and how it's best to meet them in a more active way and use the actions and the scientific skills that we have and the visceral level of connection and understanding that we have with them to help them find for themselves a different way to respond. Yeah, which I think is very different than what most people kind of picture when you say creating structure and creating a carefully planned training session. Right. I think a lot of people picture calm and slow. Right. And you're not you're talking about how to use all those things, but also how to use them, you know, working with the animal's innate tendency, love of movement. Right. Exactly that. And by the way, you said something else that's important. You said calm and slow. So so I'm I'm just going to say slow is not necessarily calm. And we take a wild child animal of any species, but we're especially seeing it in dogs. Just because you make them go slow does not mean they are calm. So, yeah. OK, good point. You know, we're talking about structure and we're talking about movement and we're talking about all these pieces. What where do props come into all this? So I know that a lot of times props can play a big role in creating structure. So anything specific we need to kind of think about when it comes to props and these kinds of dogs? So you're asking the girl who teaches a six week class called Magic Mats and all about the wonders and the power of stationing. So, yes. Yeah. I'm I'm big on props. And sometimes it's for the position or the location.

We want the dog here. That's a good and easy way to do it. Stationing is big and it will be big in this class. No doubt about it. But targeting is also big, like front feet on this or rear feet on this. Or, you know, the the use of stationing in this class will be in large part for position and location. No question about it. But also in large part for the mental puzzling out that it offers the dog so that he the dog gets to chew. I hear your dog in the background. That's cute. I have two lying beside me right here. Very, very good at the moment. But the props will also be used to help the dog operate, choose to operate from his prefrontal cortex. So it'll there will be elements of puzzling things out that will help the dog choose to calm himself down and use his brain a little bit differently and perhaps more productively. So, yeah, props are big. Props will be very big in this class. So this isn't one of the questions I like prepped you for. But what about, you know, I'm just picturing, you know, some of the dogs who kind of fall into this category and some of the struggles people run into. And especially when it comes to props, sometimes you get so much enthusiasm that the props go flying. That's right. Yeah. That will never happen in this class. Fair enough. I just had it happen to me. I was working with I don't want to say her name because she's sleeping right beside me and she will jump up at the ready if I say her name out loud. So K-O-O-L-A-I-D. Well, thankfully, she didn't jump up at that. But anyway, she and I were I was using a prop in the arena when I was training a certain something for Karen Kay's fitness class. And I simply did not have the piece of equipment that I should have. And so I improvised, of course, as we all do. And in her zeal, when she understood that I actually wanted her to pull into a tight tuck sit very close to the bar and do nose bops, just lifting the front end and not the back end. So you can picture this is a very controlled exercise and it's strength building and she has to use her core and I don't want her rear end to move at all. And she's way too close to the bar on purpose. So this is a precision behavior. And she has to lift up and do the nose touches three, four or five times in a row. When she realized that she was actually going to be allowed to jump the bar from that position, she was so excited. And she did a beautiful job of bringing the elbows back because you understand I was doing this exercise way too close to the bar on purpose so that I could create that core strength lift off from the rear and the snap back of the elbows.

So I was standing directly in front of her to do the nose bops and they were beautiful. So I stood to the side. If you can picture this turn 90 degrees to open up the bar to her. And when she saw that the bar was open, the eyes, I just saw the eyes go wild. Only the eyes. Oh my God, I will jump the thing. And it was set at approximately 14 inches. So you have to understand this is a precision exercise. This is not about an extension jump. This is a precision exercise. So I know I'm in trouble, but I want to see what's going to happen because she hasn't moved. And she's being patient. She's looking at patient. Let's say eager patience would be, you know, an understatement. So I offered the cue to jump and the dog did the most beautiful job of using her body correctly. The elbows moved back and then lifted. The front end lifted. She's using her core. I can actually see it. And the quads and everything and operating off the rear issue, which would be the only way to clear the bar. And that prop that I had set for her, I'm too embarrassed to tell you what it is because let's just say it didn't work. That went flying about 15 feet as soon as she actually left the ground and took off. So she was using her rear end correctly. And that rear end just threw my prop across the turf. And it, oh, I don't know. In my mind, it went about 15 feet. But the poor thing. So then, therefore, because her energy went the wrong way, so to speak, it wasn't her fault. But the energy went into that. Now she's going to hit the bar with a rear end. Well, my little girl immediately in the blink of an eye said, that's not going to happen. And she, she like just threw herself in rotation. If you can picture this, I think as soon as she felt the prop slipping out from underneath her, she, she just accelerated her movement and added a twist of torque to her takeoff. That's the way I saw it at the time. And cleared the bar in some sort of beautiful gymnastic somersault, right? Roundoff. Actually, it wasn't a somersault. It was more like a roundoff, if you can picture that gymnastically. She did clear the bar. She cleared the bar by about a foot because, because she threw herself so as to clear the bar. So let's just say I didn't look so good. She looked great, but I had chosen unwisely for what I wanted that prop to accomplish. And it just went sideways, as you say. It, it went crazy and what turned out to be counterproductive. So anyway, I'll try to be a little bit smarter in the future about what I actually want the prop to do.

But, but I think that's another way of saying you're not going to have to need, you're not going to need fancy equipment for the class, but you will need to open your eyes, look around you and, and choose props that will actually get the job done for you. And sometimes every once in a while, just like that, we'll guess wrong and won't work. So we'll just, we'll just choose better next time. But when, when you have a wild child dog who actually works that hard, you know, to meet the spirit of the exercise, I just threw all my freeze dried liver treats on the floor and let her have them. And clearly my session was done because that prop wasn't going to work. So I didn't want to repeat it. So we were done with that session and I just rewarded her heavily for her effort. And, and that's, I think, going to be a critical piece of working with the wild child is there are going to be things that go very, very badly, which you will need to reward in the moment. And not just because, oh, I want them to feel good. It's because that was a valiant effort. That was an amazing effort. And effort counts in this class, just like it would in any other. You have to be able to recognize when the dog is doing the very best that he can. And it might not look the same as another dog might look, but you want to reward effort in this class, just like any other class. I kind of want to, you know, talk about this from the angle of impulse control for a second. So how does what we're talking about here differ or does it, you know, from impulse control and the types of things people typically associate with that kind of work? Okay. I think the main difference is that we want to be thinking of what can they do here. However, we tend to get, that sounds obvious, right? But we tend to get stuck with wild child dogs and all the things we don't want them to do because they throw so much behavior at us. Don't do this. Well, I don't want that. I'm not going to reward this if he also does that. Well, that is wrong thinking. I mean, just scientifically and as a trainer and as an emotional being connected to this creature, that is wrong thinking. I'm not going to reward this because they also did that. Has got to go. And that's the first thing. So we're not going to be thinking about what we don't want. We're going to be choosing things we do want and we're going to get better and smarter at our timing to be able to reward early on or mark early on prior to the dogs going off on the tangent that we don't want, whatever it be.

And we want to be very astute about using impulse control in a productive way instead of the nonproductive way, which looks like the nonproductive way looks like the dog ultimately not doing the behavior correctly, right? So that's an example. When we make a statement like that, we are talking about, well, I waited for the outcome and the outcome wasn't what I wanted. So that kind of thinking has to go with a wild child. That will never work. They're always going to throw in something that you didn't want. You have to expect that. Just because they never did that before doesn't mean you're not going to see it in this class. You certainly will. So the answer, of course, goes back to the maximum reward movement, not outcome. Reward early enough in the process that you're capturing a correct piece of the puzzle before the dog starts trying to jam all these other pieces in there. So we're going to get quicker. We're going to get faster. We're going to get more astute. We're going to be very observant. And we're going to learn a lot about who this dog is as an individual and how we can use his tendencies, the behavior tendencies, in order to get where we want to go. So let's go back to my daughter's horse, Bo. I think by using the horse instead of using a dog, for an example, it might actually get the concept across a little bit better. This is a short, true story. After my daughter and I had this horse and we're working with him every day, I couldn't let her go out there by herself. It's just you have to understand this horse just wasn't safe. So when we first started clicker training him, he was nine years old and he was inside the stall and we were outside the stall. So that's how, you know, that barrier separation was very important, just as if he were a wild animal. There were many, many setups that use that kind of barrier between. And this is how we started training him. But there was one time when we were working and I, I'm just admitting this about myself, I'm just a mom, right? So when my 13-year-old daughter looks like that horse could hurt her, my heart goes in my throat. And Heather had let Bo out of the stall to demonstrate something that he was doing so well with. And immediately on coming out of the stall, I saw the horse kind of push her aside. You know, you can picture a big dog doing this and a person saying, that's not good. He's going to take you out at the knees. Well, imagine, you know, a 900-pound horse taking you out at the knees like that's not good. And I said to Heather a very stupid thing. I said, he's so stubborn about that push behavior.

He's still plowing through people because we've been working on that, as you can imagine. We've been working on that in a positive way for so long. But he was very excited to be let out of his stall. And he came charging out. He just did the thing that he usually does. So if I had known him 20 years ago, what I know now, I would have station trained him. It would have been much better. But anyway, let's just say when you know better, you do better. And so my inadvertent comment was not necessarily directed at my daughter, but it was vented in frustration, just being honest. And I said, oh, he's so stubborn about that push. He just wants to keep that push, that plowing through behavior. And my daughter whipped around, looked at me and said, he's not stubborn. He's not patient enough to be stubborn. Whoa, talk about being schooled by a 13-year-old. That is absolutely true. I've never forgotten it. I don't know whether she's forgotten it. I'll have to ask her. But we still talk about that wonderful horse to this very day and how much he taught us and what a wonderful, incredible teammate he became for her. But isn't that something? So I don't take credit for this. This is my daughter. He's not stubborn. He's not patient enough to be stubborn. I love that. Yeah, me too. So that's the beauty of the wild child. You'll get a lot of behavior to choose from. So impulse control is all well and good. But we are going to be using the dog's brain in different ways, in additional ways, not just how to teach them not to do stuff. We're just going to take advantage of that brain and put the dog on the same page as us so that we have a teammate who wants what we want. And then we'll both piece it out as to how to get it. Does that help? Yeah, absolutely. So to kind of take this to, like, that next step, right? We're talking about dogs who maybe, you know, just as you described the horse, who maybe don't make good decisions when given the opportunity to make choices for themselves. Yeah. Yeah. So how do we, you know, kind of merge that or mesh that with, you know, the big topics in training today, which are consent and choice, right? So how do those things all kind of come together? Oh, yeah, that's great. We tend to think of structured training as, you know, so that we don't have to go down that path, but we actually want to. Once on, I love this, actually, consent and choice are huge. And here's why they're so huge for the wild child. You can talk a wild child into trying to do all kinds of stuff, but that doesn't mean that they're confident. We tend to think, remember I was saying slow is not necessarily calm.

Well, fast is not necessarily confident, right? So I actually think that's a maximum. I have to write that down. Fast is not automatically confident and slow is not automatically calm. So if we're thinking about those things, then consent and choice become even more important because just because you can get the dog to do something doesn't mean that they're confident about it or that they're calm about it. And we need both those things when we are learning new tasks. Both those things are very important. So when the dog is allowed to decide when to begin, when the dog is allowed to choose whether or not to offer a certain behavior, to try a certain behavior, those things are super, super important for the wild child because it's all going to be over very quickly. The dog is going to do whatever he's going to do. He's probably going to do it fast. And so that can mask a lot of confidence issues. And it does all the time. I see it all the time. I bet you have too, where you see a dog just going at a ferocious pace, whatever he's doing. Let's take the agility dog walk as an example. Oh, he's so confident. He's so fast. And what I see is the dog trying to get off that scary thing as soon as possible, as quickly as possible. And that's because the trainer could talk the dog into doing that under those circumstances, which might be different from how they behave when they are calm and confident. But under those circumstances, the dog wanted off as soon as possible. So instead of going, he knows he's going to have to do the thing. So I'm going to do this thing. And by God, it's going to be over with. And they just rush to get it done. And that, of course, is the opposite of the emotional state that we're trying to develop in association with whatever sport or whatever life skills activity we actually want. So it's consent and choice are huge with the wild child because we actually want them to be able to tell us that they are operating from the prefrontal cortex when they're learning something new and that they are able, you know, and ready to work, so to speak, that they are ready and able to want what we want. Instead of making it, instead of making it an adversarial, can you get them to do something? So consent and choice make all the difference. And stationing will have a big part in that, too. The dog will be able to understand as we get several weeks into the class, the dog will have clear understanding that if the thing is not working for him, if the dog doesn't feel comfortable working with whatever it is. If the dog is being asked to work with, then they can go to the station.

A return to the station is never going to be a bad thing for a wild child. It's actually very important that they understand that. How much do we really know about, you know, what's happening in the dog's brain during all of this? I know in your class description, you kind of you mentioned and I think you mentioned earlier kind of this idea about prefrontal cortex versus the limbic system. And, you know, what do we really know about what's going on there? Well, I don't presume to be an expert. There are others who know a whole lot more than I do about what's going on there exactly. For example, prefrontal cortex. I'm just using that to say I want the dog in a conscious thought, conscious decision making frame of mind. There are many, many sections of prefrontal cortex and there are different elements and different activities that go on all within that very large part of the brain. And I'm not going to differentiate with that because I'm not really qualified to. But we will be talking about we'll be breaking things down and we'll be discussing the prefrontal cortex elements which will lump together as opposed to when the dog is using the limbic system, as you said, which is simply meaning the responses are originating in the amygdala, which is a whole primitive, important area of the brain, which we are not the least bit afraid of. We're happy to have responses come from the limbic area when they are well learned and well practiced. That's where muscle memory comes from. You can't have muscle memory without operating from the limbic system. That's very fast. The reason that we need the limbic system when behaviors are well learned is that if we want something to happen powerfully and fast, for example, we can look at agility, but there are many, many other sports, too, that need limbic responses. Just as when a professional basketball player runs down the court dribbling the basketball, trust me, he's not thinking about first you push the ball and when it hits the floor, it's going to bounce back up to your hand and you're going to push it again. Like that has to be limbic. That has to be coming. Those responses come from the amygdala so that the individual is available to think about something else with their prefrontal cortex. So that's going to be very, very important in wild child class is that we're not afraid of the limbic system. We're going to use the limbic system. And why? Because the responses that come from the amygdala are not conscious and therefore they are extremely fast.

The limbic system operates, limbic responses come at least 100 times faster than prefrontal cortex conscious thought. So that's what we need. So when we're on to behaviors that call for the utmost in speed and power, we want those responses to be limbic. And so therefore, we'll be working towards creating muscle memory for the things that we want to be so well understood that they're felt rather than thought about. And the response can be limbic because it will be so much more powerful and so much faster. All right, guys. Sorry, we lost connection for a minute there. So Julie and I are going to kind of pick up where we left off. I think you were talking about the limbic system, right? Yeah. I think when my computer shut off, I think I was talking about how we actually want limbic responses as well as the prefrontal cortex generated responses that the limbic system has a lot to offer us, particularly in active dog sports. But even in aspects of daily life and life skills, because the limbic responses are so automatic and they are so very fast, approximately 100 times faster than responses that are generated via the prefrontal cortex. So the limbic system has a lot to offer us. We're not going to be afraid of it. We're not going to be afraid of arousal. So we're not going to dive into brain science because I'm not really qualified to do that. I'm a student of that game. And so people will be invited to share resources that they come upon that are of interest, just as I will. But we'll all be students in that aspect of brain science together just because it's interesting to us. But we will make the differentiation between a limbic response and a considered conscious thought response. And when we need, I think it's easy to see when we would need one and when we would need the other. And by the way, how to combine them in multitasking efforts. We'll be doing some of that as well. Awesome. So I want to talk one more just about the class itself. So it's on the schedule for August. So registration, when this comes out, registration will have just opened. Can you share a little about just, you know, what pieces of all this the class is going to cover? And, you know, if there's pieces maybe we didn't talk about. Okay. Um, yeah, well, uh, typical, I think of most of us FENSE instructors. Once I set about working on the syllabus, I realized that I had way, way too much material, which I hear the other instructors talk about all the time as well. So I've decided to concentrate on, um, the dogs that I described, the dogs who stress up and the dogs that offer a lot of behavior.

And for whom matching their energy begins, uh, with starting higher up the scale than you might want to. And then gradually coming down as a, because there are, uh, plenty of dogs who would benefit from this class who start a little bit lower. And, um, their energy will rise as they begin working. And there's nothing wrong with that, but this class is just, is going to be geared to the dogs that are a little bit higher, um, in energy to begin with. So let me just say there, there are three main categories that I'll be working with in this six week class. And the first is the obvious impulse control, which as you and I've talked about a little bit has a bad name. Um, I'm going to be talking about it as a self-control. So three categories, self-control. And another important category is the explosion on cue, meaning when to actually do the thing, when to offer behavior and how we can use that back and forth. So the third element is the hurry up and wait aspect, uh, which we think about with bitey sports and agility and active dog sports, but it's, it's in all dog sports and it's in many aspects of daily life with our dogs. That whole hurry up and wait is a way of life. And, uh, for the wild child, that can be very, very difficult, meaning the back and forth aspect of the brain work, when, when to do the thing, when to hold back, when to think about what to do. When, when, when a discriminative stimulus is coming into play, as opposed to the automatic response that we expect. So the, the class will go into those three major categories and within those categories, we'll dive into some super fun things like multitasking and how to, um, help our dogs learn the concept of, um, multitasking. So that's a very fun aspect I've been looking at a lot lately and I'll be sharing that. Awesome. So if we're talking about kind of an ideal candidate for the class, you know, what kind of team should consider taking it? Yeah. The, the dogs who get excited and want to do the things now, those are, those are the dogs, the dogs that stress up for sure. So it's not always about, I want to do the thing. It could be about, you know, I can't stop moving so we can help those dogs too and, um, get them on the same page too. And certainly the sport dogs, the active sports dogs who tend to rush to, to rush everything, to want to do things fast. Um, or how about the handlers too, um, who have some issues with, um, their dogs offering. Um, I'm trying to be gentle about this, but some people aren't well suited to training dogs who are crazy. So I, I think I can help.

So I think, um, handlers who just might want to learn some new impulse control games, self-controlled games that they can use in their own way with their wild child dogs. Those handlers will get a lot out of this class because with me, it's all about the games. And this class will be when to use which game and why we're always going to know what we're doing and why, what, what are we trying to accomplish? What actually happened? How did the dog respond and, um, how we can use that? It's all behavior and how we can use that information, uh, to help any dog feel more calm, confident, and happy in the environmental context that we're, we find ourselves in. So that's who should take the class. It's not exactly everybody this time. Usually when you ask me that question, I say, well, everybody should take my class or my workshop. But, but this one, I've, I've had to narrow down the material in order not to dilute it too much. So that's the decision that I made is let, let's work with the high energy dogs. There are lots of other classes, FENSI classes, which are dedicated to other aspects of, um, impulse control and the like. So this is going to be my take on it. You mentioned kind of games in there and I know that's your typical approach. Can you share like an example of a game that listeners might be able to play with their wild child to help add some of that? Uh, I think in the description you said to add good to the crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy good. Um, oh boy, I have to pick one. Okay. I will, um, I will pick one that maybe, um, other people have not played there. There, there will be many games included, which people think they're familiar with, but they haven't used it in quite the same way that I've used it. And, um, and we'll talk about why to do it my way and how that could help you. But, um, in addition that, that happens in a lot of the games that I teach, um, beginning with mat work. In fact, I, uh, approach mat work a little bit differently. Um, I'll, I'll share with you one of my favorites, certainly one of my favorites for agility dogs, but I think it's useful in all kinds of dog sports and it's fun in daily life. And it's a terrific parlor trick. So, um, this game is the lineup game. Um, the physical cue that the game is on, that the game is available is the handler snapping the hand open with the fingertips pointing at the dog. So that says, if you can picture that motion, is that clear? Obviously direct eye contact will come with that too, but the, it may take a second for the dog to realize, Hey, Hey, that's that game. So this is the cue.

This is a game that you can play sitting in a chair. You don't have to stand up. You can be, um, in your living room, do it, try it during a TV commercial or something. Um, so snap the hand open with the fingertips facing the dog and make direct eye contact with your dog. That says game on lineup game. So the dog will already be lined up with those fingers, if that makes sense. And I don't care what position they're in. Although I would choose standing or sitting. I would not choose to play this game, um, until the dog learns the game and understands it. I would not choose to begin this game when the dog is sacked out on a dog bed, but I'll just be honest. My dogs think that's hysterical, but, um, but let's just say during the early phases of teaching this game, um, it's a training session. So that says game on. And then what you're going to do is take that hand of yours and move it slightly to, if I'm using my right hand, I will begin by moving it to the right. And what I'm looking for is for the dog to take a step to their left because their left is my right. Right. So that's not going to be pretty at first. It might initially just be, um, a head and neck movement. It probably will be. That's no big deal. We'll get the feet later. Um, but if you can picture what I'm going to mark, it's a response. It's, uh, the, the dog noticing and reacting to that. The hand is no longer where it was. It's now over to the side. So it's not going to be pretty initially, but ultimately when my dogs played, it's just, it's a beautiful game. Um, the dog moves. I think, um, people who do hurting might just love this game. I don't know, but, um, by moving the hand. And then what the dog learns to do is change their position and line up with the new position of the hand. So as you can imagine, when you start this game, you're relatively close to the dog. And by the time you get to increase distance up to 20 feet, a small hand motion or a change in the angle of the fingers from the wrist is a huge movement for the dog at 20 feet. But it's a small movement for the dog at three feet. Does that make sense? So the lineup game is one of my favorites for wild child dog. And it's a very good game for playing in all sorts of situations. That's why I chose it. You could play it sitting down in your living room. And, um, once the dog learns the concept, it's really fun to play outside. And I usually combine it with a reinforcer, such as a ball. I'm going to throw the ball when you line up with the hand. So ultimately, I might have the ball in the hand that's pointing to the dog, but I don't start that way.

I start with the fingertips because that's going to be the initial cue, which doesn't look like anything else. And so that will be the game on cue for the lineup game. And then the reward for the dog lining up or attempting to line up in motion toward the the final product of lining up is that I'm going to throw the ball. Awesome. Does that sound funny? Yeah, that sounds awesome. I kind of want to see a demo video now. Yeah. So we'll have to. The show tells a story for sure. And I have the video of all the steps. So, yeah. Yeah. I wish I could show you. I only wish I could show you. All right. So one last question for you, Julie. And that's just a, you know, what's something that you've learned or been reminded of recently when it comes to training? This comes up regularly for me. Dogs are telepathic. But let's just say to get out of the woo realm and get into the practical realm, how important and useful it is for us to feel sincerely the level of calmness that we want the dogs to display. So it's normal for me in my life with my dogs to behave as though dogs are telepathic. Whether you believe that or not makes no difference to me, really. But as long as you're able to behave as if dogs are telepathic, you'll make good progress with being able to elicit certain mental states. I was going to say calmness states, but certain mental states from your dog when you want them just by being able to model that mental state yourself. And it's huge. And we tend to think, you know, I told him to do this. I told him to get on the station. Can you picture this? And he's spinning and barking at you because you're crazy. So if you can work on your own mental state first and behave as if dogs are telepathic to your mental state, which, by the way, they are. But let's just say it doesn't matter whether they are or not. You will be able to impart the benefits of your desired energy by projecting that sincerely and honestly to your dog as part of your cue. How's that? Awesome. I think that's great. And it goes really well with what you started off saying about matching energy and things like that. Right. It all kind of comes together. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast, Julie. Thanks, Melissa. I really appreciate it. Absolutely. And thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already, subscribe to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy.

Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty-free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training.