에피소드 11 - 강아지와 인터넷의 늪

did you have any young dogs anybody I see we see young dogs quite frequently I like you're like you said I haven't personally had a had a dog that was a puppy since 2018 my most recent dog that I got was I got him when he was older he was about 11 12 months old when I when I got my last dog so yeah so it's been it's been a hot minute since I've had a puppy but definitely see a lot of puppies they come into our training program uh we've got a lot of puppies in club that we work with so so you're always exposed to puppies in one way or another yeah actually uh one of my club members her dog she had bred just had a litter of puppies uh six no six or seven females all females a full female litter all females wow yeah what are the so do they do they get um like a lot of times you know people have a list uh of people that want a dog right a reader has a list of people that want a dog yeah what happens when like those people wanted a male and now they're all females does she so I I know I mean a lot of breeders are out there and everyone is going to have their own style on how they do this but the ones I know and that I'm familiar with and close to a lot of them won't take deposits until the litter is down they'll put you on a list for like they'll have like a deposit list where when you when you commit to saying Hey I want to put down a deposit they'll say okay you're you're number three on the list right and then based on that list when the litter is born they make the announcement and then if you're still interested in depositing you would get your deposit in the order that you reached out to the to the breeder um that's that's how I know some breeders do it others they're pretty confident that they're going to get what they're going to get and they they start taking deposits right away you know and and they do it that way as well so I mean there's there's everything in between too like you know yeah when I got my uh con that's I mean we had already put the depit down but we because he had so many litters but we wanted a specific from a specific sire right we wanted a puppy we didn't care about the um the mother right we just want the father to be from um spider was the name of the father so we we were just waiting and all a sudden we got a message saying hey we have a litter like what do you want and we told them like we want a male brindle from spider and they chose for us uh and just we got him nice nice dog yeah nice talk not for everybody definitely not right in recent news today you know the release of online silver school for the Napo program that's available I I'm interested to hear your take on your approach to a puppy

training puppies raising a puppy through naoo and like what what are some things that you would kind of point out there um so I do uh start well first of all I start with for my puppies I start with letting them pretty much do whatever they want right I don't want any like restrictions on them in the in the beginning so I want them to be as free and is like to express themselves powerfully right to go like whatever they're going to do just do it all in you know and now a little bit more than I used to is I watch and just kind of watch them and see like what their Tendencies are because every dog is different you know see what they're what they react to how do they recover what they like to do um uh are they more of a dog that's using their nose all the time right as opposed to just looking around um the one thing I noticed because I had the thing with my two last dogs was I had them both at the same time they were three months apart which I don't recommend don't get two puppies at the same time but they were three months apart and I could immediately I could see the differences right the and as they grew I would see how they would react and for example Ripley and she's a doberman if she heard a noise she would stop and bark towards that noise and be like what is that right Khan the duchy if he heard a noise he would run towards it barking immediately like he was going for it to find out what it's at he's not waiting to see what it is he's going to go find out so he would like all his energy would go forward you know whereas Ripley would like be reserved and cautious um so and looking at that was you know how you have to change how you train the dogs but anyway going back to like puppies and I had a lot of videos of this was I always start with uh free shaping the puppies because I want them to just start from young age trying to think and figure things out okay and when I'm doing the free shaping it's just I in the beginning I'm changing what it is constantly and it's about them think and trying to problem solve rather than learning something right and if you and I'll what I'll do is I'll give them an object and maybe one two reps that they once they engage with it I will change that object in the beginning it's almost um I'm not looking for a finished Behavior I don't want them to necessarily always like say stick their in this cone right I want interaction first and maybe the first thing they do maybe they go close to it and sniff it I might stop right there and come back later to it right but I might do the same things over and over to get to a certain

Behavior but I'm not doing it in one session with one item when they're young if that makes sense yeah I mean you were talking about uh some of the the downfalls of that or or sorry not that free shaping but the luring that is common on social media and amongst you know pet and Sport people that you see in Home Depot or Lowe's the these stores and you I maybe share some of those observations because I thought those were really interesting oh uh yeah one thing I learned by doing right everything's trial and error unless you have have somebody to tell you every little thing which usually you can you have to learn things on your own right but I like my older dog I took him to Home Depot to expose them to you know the environment but I would do free shaping in Home Depot okay like free shaping them onto the carts up the stairs onto shelves right things like that interacting with things but I think there's a problem with that okay and what it is is that later on when they get older now that environment has become a free shaping environment and when you go in there they they will start offering those behaviors without you asking for them right because they were rewarded for those things when they were puppies they looked at the environment in context right and they go oh okay we're free shaping because this is what we this is what I remember and they start getting on to carts and then you know they're free shaping because they'll get on and look at you like hey are you g is this the right thing you know and they start offering behaviors that they did when they were puppies and like we were talking about that is one thing that uh we learned from Barton Michael was the mother language right and I didn't know I didn't understand how important that was before that and the thing with the mother language is that whatever you teach your dog first especially as a puppy that's going to be one of the strongest things they remember so what what uh we learned what I learned from Barton Michael was that if you want your dog to be a detection dog right if it's going to be using it knows that is the first thing you should start teaching right right if you're going to do bite work you should start with holding and using their mouth you know so whatever you're going to teach whatever discipline sport working whatever it is that's what you should start when they're puppies if if the dog's going to be working when it gets older and as the activity is age appropriate obviously you're not going to throw a puppy on a you know at eight weeks like age appropriate people do that some people do it but it's not that just because

they do it doesn't mean it should yeah right and two actually that's a really good I like that point and because one thing I've done with my dogs is and this was back so when I got my puppy I knew he was going to be uh an excellent dog for protection I just he had the possession the possessive nature of the toy or the the rag in the puppy play area um and I you know I have my assessment that I do on puppies uh to determine if it's a dog that I want uh but for me one one way to use this to your advantage and that I've done is I knew I had a good so my MW I knew he was going to be good in protection so I started him doing obedience and tracking first because those were her his weaker phases right naturally he was going to genetically he was going to bring about good protection and so because I didn't want to double down in one out of you know in shuton there's three there's three phases one uh tracking obedience protection and instead of doubling down on the protection where he's already going to be naturally excelling I played the the statistical advantage and said okay I'm going to you know spread out my the odds of me doing better and then uh focused on teaching him his mother language being obedience and NOS workk in the beginning like that's from day one like we were doing shaping in the cone obedience box work position boxes things like that and I was really glad with that decision because again had I've done just straight protection rag work all that stuff I'd have had a phenomenal dog maybe even too much of a dog but then I always wonder what would have happened had I not have done the the foundation in obedience and scent work that I did with that dog yeah but that's the thing like you're going for a sport that has three phases right so it that was the thing the all three phases should be the mother language because you're going to need them uh Al together equally yeah equally they're all they're all rated at 100 points yeah that's another thing like what I also what I do with my puppies is I I have them find their food from puppies because I want them that's the first way I teach them to use their nose sure searching for their meal right in the backyard which quickly like run you run out of things to do if you have a small yard because they their nose gets better and better and it's like in the beginning they they're searching they're actually searching to find it but as they get better and better and their nose improves and they know learn how to pinpoint things it's like as soon as they come out of the house they it's like they all they know where it's at which way to go the scent they're picking up the scent the

scent right away yeah you it's hard it's hard to fool them when you've done that much with them um it's and I mean speaking of puppies it's just so interesting like I like the point that you made is like sometimes we create our own problems and we don't know it so for example you know in pet training a lot of times you know a a another common complaint from owners is that oh I don't want I want them to stop jumping on people but the first thing that happens with that dog that is jumping on people as an adult or a younger dog is when they got home the dog got so much value and reinforcement from being all up in your grill like everyone loves on them and like you know you want your dog to be social and friendly so everyone's like picking and cuddling and codling your dog but that carries through into the dog's later age and so the dog's like hey I see someone I want to experience the same connection with that person so I'm trying to jump on you and and that's where the jumping you know a lot of times stems from you know that these pet these pet owners are dealing with yeah and it's not only that the dog wants to be up there but what happens is when they're puppies they put their front legs on your on your legs and then you end up picking them up right right so they were reinforced for jumping on you or or this is this is the other way that dogs learn to jump onto US is they put their legs on someone who doesn't want them on him and guess what we push them off and then we in then we initiate opposition reflex and the dog wants to come back harder right y so like especially the pushy dogs yeah yeah and and so one thing I do and I've done I've done this walking into client's homes before they they've got like a a big Mastiff whose friend friendly and I wouldn't do this with a with a reactive or a or a unstable dog I absolutely wouldn't do this with that dog because this is not a that would be a risky maneuver but on dogs that are known to be stable and safe and welcoming and friendly um but they're just they don't have manners or boundaries the way one one way you can get the dog to stop jumping on you is when he jumps on you just give him a big old bear hug make it weird and just wait for the dog to start pushing to try to get away from you and then when they're really pushing hard that's when you let them break free and they realize you use opposition reflex against them to move them in the opposite direction away from you and so like all it takes is like dog comes up to you once he jumps on you you grab him hold him make it weird he wants to get away he pushes you let him break you let him break free he does it again do it

again bear hug he gets weird he wants to break away third time he thinks twice about coming up and he's just happy to sit there and stare at you and just like wait for you to P him on the head or something like that do that translate to other people or is it just is just you and he won't jump up on you anymore I've seen it both ways but it's it's a quick fix you know you just like you stage it with people that are willing to go through that process and you do it on a few different people pretty soon the dog's like everyone I everyone I jump on inevitably holds me until I get uncomfortable so I'm going to stop doing that and and again you're you're utilizing the dog's own intrinsic desire creating the active dog to do what you want him to do and then when he W when he gets away he's rewarded it's it's Nao training on the dog right negative reinforcement you know he breaks away from that uncomfortable stimulus of being held by someone who's bear hugging in but then you get the dog that actually wanted that yes so but there what yeah go ahead you just have to go you just have to go longer you just have to be willing to wait it out because there there's always a point there's I've never come across the dog who has outlasted my desire to make it weird like um you know just by giving him like a strong bear hug right you know nice just a matter yeah and like talking about dogs that like that though or that like some of it but you make it we you make it weird uh because we were talking about the labs like earlier we talking about the labs I had where they were all from the same litter but they we needed to their environmental exposure had to be different for all three of them and it was because of what they found reinforcing reinforcing in the environment you know from the one that was wanted to go greet every single person to the second one being kind of neutral it was like people are good but I like you also sure and the third one that was wary of people and didn't really want to greet that many people wanted to stay close to you right so that's why like we said like it shouldn't be cookie cutter it should be whatever that particular dog is in need of at that time you know so if you go out and just start letting all these people pet the dogs the one that likes people is you're going to have a problem later in getting engagement because they've been reinforced so much by strangers that that's all they look for is strangers right instead of looking at you and then the opposite for the one that is not that comfortable with strangers you know so it's it's it just comes down to balance you know but going back to the

puppies the puppies in the beginning it's about making them strong as strong as possible the free shaping that causes them to think and problem solve but then making things difficult so that they have to overcome obstacles and when they do overcome those obstacles you know there's confidence because they they did it you know for you what is the scenario in which you don't or wouldn't take that approach the approach for making them Stronger Yeah because there are some there there are some scenarios where that's not the right solution or the the right prescribed pathway of training a certain right so I'll give you an example with my my duy because he's already strong relatively he was already strong as a puppy I didn't do a lot of free shaping past uh teaching him what it meant and how to problem solve because that's one thing with free shaping it it all it makes a dog stronger also we talk about the dopamine box strengthening a dog but free shaping really makes a dog stronger because they you make them feel like they control everything now if you have a strong dog already you don't want them thinking they can control everything right because then they they start uh challenging like you if you don't let them do what they want so with him I stopped pretty early with the free shaping and I went to more um like showing him what I wanted him to do you know just for that reason whereas Ripley Ripley was weaker yeah she's Doberman too so with her it was more more free shaping and now she'll go like depending on the context she starts offering behaviors when she believes there's a there's a possibility of a reward right she starts looking around what can I do to to get you to to activate you the Handler to get me the reward right so with her I need to I actually probably need to do more even more than I did I should have done uh just to really really really open her up yeah it's all about knowing the dog and and that's the thing that's hard about puppies is sometimes what you need to do with the dog is counterintuitive because of the dog's nature and your goals for the dog right so like you have to be able to read the dog correctly so that you can give them the right program yeah you can't just you know be on like auto drive and just okay we're going to do this now we're going to do that and now we're going to free shape and now we're going to do you know whatever we're going to teach the we're going to teach whatever you're going to teach it's going and developing the plan for each individual dog and you know because you're going to get what you start with yeah you know especially with the I would say the Napo post style of puppy

raising where you're trying to make to maximize everything right but like you said with sometimes you don't want to do that even with like pet dogs you might not want to make them very very good at problem solving because then are always looking at everything as a problem to solve and the problem is those really good dogs they learn they'll they'll pick up things quickly I think that's what happens when you when they learn how to problem solve is they they will pick up things in the environment quickly and they will learn like after one rep or two so you like with pet dogs you don't want them becoming too strong in that especially with somebody who doesn't know how to to to pay attention to that and notice what's going on right right or maybe you should because then they have to come looking for you for help with training later to get them under control possibly um I actually saw a comment uh in a forum and you see these they they cycle they they appear every couple months or so someone was asking how early do people put an e-collar on their on their puppies like what what are they doing in puppy training and how soon are they putting e-collar on their dogs and this was in a Nao forum and I was really interested uh is is one way to describe it um I was a little surprised by the the feedback I saw to that to that question not it was bad feedback but it it was not why what I expected from a community of people that have gone through the school or are familiar with the school in some some way shape or form maybe they've attended a seminar or done an online an online school and I'll I'll I'll pose the question to you when are you introducing the e-caller to your dog well the as soon as it fits you should do it as soon as possible especially with like Martin systems that has like level one is so low right you are you can introduce it from the beginning and because you you are familiar with motivating your dog and keeping that motivation high right uh because you don't want any kind of pressure you add be it from e-collar to flat collar pinch collar whatever ever it is slip lead you don't want that being higher the pressure being higher than the motivation that the dog has right but at the same time the the e-colors especially in Martin systems is so precise right and it's such a a range where it's not something that's very like level one is not very high pressure especially when you can add more contact points right you can make it very weak to where it's a sensation but and the problem is the people that ask that question that tells you that they are using the e-collar at a higher level than they should be right right when

they start using it that's when you hear about what it'll do to a puppy yes yeah but if you have it on the lowest level where the puppy just barely feels it what does it matter what how old the puppy is right exactly because there's different levels there's sensation there's nagging then it becomes now becom starts becoming uncomfortable then it becomes very uncomfortable right right then that's the the the beauty of the modern e-collar is that you can you have increments and you can go so low and especially with Martin systems where you can change you can change level two if you want right level three you can change all the levels and I think Martin Michael showed that with their horse way back when because they had changed the hor was so the horses are so sensitive that they had changed their first Seven Levels because our our our out of the factory the levels jumped say like one one to 25 to 50 you know it it kind of jumps right levels but they had changed it to go for level one was one level two was two level three was three it was a very gradual um ramping up of of the stem because the horse that's what it needed you can do the same thing with a puppy right is you can have it so it's very mild and doesn't cause any kind of avoidance right of the dogs going like what is this it's more of a inquisitive like what is that like what am I supposed to do with that yeah so it's interesting and I agree with you I as soon as I can fit it on my dog it goes on my dog because like you said the technology today is such that you don't have to worry about it being it's it if you worry about it being a bad experience to your puppy then absolutely like you have no business using the the the tool but introducing the the equipment and the benefits of just the clarity of what's good what's not good and showing the dog how to overcome like mild sensation which is not at all it's barely perceptible it's not it's it's not even in the realm of s it's not even in the realm of registering to the dog it's barely it's like a mosquito on your neck you know um and so I was really shocked to see a lot of the responses saying oh you shouldn't be putting a putting a collar on your dog's neck you should just spend most of your of your time free shaping the dog charging the clicker which are appropriate exercises to be doing but to dis count the value you can immediately have from the get-go I mean I was like I was kind of like whoa like that's surprising to me you know to hear that from from this community because we know better and you know yeah but there's the other thing that people I think they they don't think about right is that the Precision of the

ecolor right the Precision of the stopping the stem or adding the stem at certain moments you can't get with any other tool right it's it's almost instant so like if you're teaching your dog to go on like to be on a place or put their feet on something you can at the lowest level where it's just sensation have it and then turn it off when the dog is on there and they will start noticing that difference but then also because we you know when we add the s to be something rewarding to the dog which is why we in the beginning we classically condition it for food right is that the turning off of that stem is not something the dog wants to do because it's uncomfortable it's something they want to do because it leads to a reward right and that's the point yeah yep so if you're out there and you're wondering how old should my dog be before he gets a e-caller first go to Silver school do online silver school or go in person and then come to Michael and my myself for gold school and we'll teach you everything you need to know so that you don't have to wait to get the benefits of the e-caller on your dog yeah but let's I mean let's qualify that because like everything you said yes but the equipment matters it's not just any e-collar yeah we're not talking but a Martin system yeah because a lot of the e- callers on the market that level one the lowest level is too high for a puppy yeah I I mean that should go without saying that that should be like that that's that that goes without saying Mike because you know both you and I are Martin system just distribution channels but like I in my shiten club I've got uh someone who uses e-collar Technologies I have another it's a I think it's a dog Tru and without fail at least one once a month there's e-collar connectivity issues there's stem issues there's unreliable levels of stem sometimes the 20 is too hot for the dog sometimes it's barely felt on the dog and I never run into those problems with my Martin system three my my micro 3B or the chameleon collar never I've never run into those issues whatsoever so yeah it goes without saying that you should be using uh the Martin system equipment and I mean why why invest in a dog if you're not going going to invest in equipment that is equally as valuable as your dog right and in fact in comparison to the money you'll spend on your dog over its lifetime a nice e caller is a fraction of the cost to keep it safe to keep it out of Harm's Way to train it well right to give you the ability to give it Freedom that you want it to enjoy in its life yeah and and that's like whenever you hear questions like that it always you always

you in the back of your mind you're like oh I know the way this person trains I can tell because of the question they asked right yeah so that's the thing going back to that is like when do you do it you can do it right away depending on how you're using it um but we also we learn in school I mean there's different ways to use an e-collar so you can introduce it from the beginning or you know you can also teach everything first and then add it later right which is useful with when you get dogs from other people that have already been trained yeah right you can do that yeah and for the people out there who might try to like misconstrue what we're saying here we're not saying every dog needs a e-collar as a puppy because not every Handler knows how to do that again you should be properly educated so go through the silver program whether that's online or in person come to Michael and I for gold school and we can definitely set you on a path that's going to LEAP Rog you above and beyond where you think you would end up with your dog and training in a shorter uh matter shorter period of time I want to I feel like this is a great opportunity right now at this point in this conversation to uh there was a question that was sent to to me um and US essentially um for for discussion on one of our next podcasts that I feel is in line with like why like you said why would you introduce collar or a tool um on a younger dog and and so I'm just going to read this question because this has been going around the interwebs it's been cycling and circling around the interwebs in chat groups and forums and lots of debates about it so it it'll probably make a great conversation topic here so uh it says hey Jason can you please explain more about the must key in the next podcast episode together with Michael Carpenter specifically the definition and facts Etc thank you in advance this is an individual from Germany so we actually have a a engagement on on the podcast from Germany so huge shout out to this individual thank you for for sending us comment uh definitely happy to to tackle that here so I'm going to kind of let you kick that off Mike um what are your thoughts that's the the saying opening up a can of worms right let's do it that's what we're here for well the whole thing with Naple po okay is teaching the dog to understand the must key right and there's been a lot of debate over that and what it is okay basically the musky is a positive plus correction that we see in napl pole that's basically it right and what you're trying to do in Naple pole is to teach them first you want to teach the dog what the musky is what it

means right because for the time you're GNA have to use it in the future the and the thing is with nabal po you are what you're doing is you teach him the mus key and then your training is there to teach them to avoid the must key because the must key is the correction that will push the dog into a behavior and the thing with a Musky is it's in the moment it has to be able to push the dog into the behavior whenever you need it right so what you're doing you teach the dog what a Musky is which is a correction basically and then your training is to teach the dog to avoid the the musky and do the behaviors with heart and soul when when the cue is given right so can I can I interject because I I would say things slightly differently I think you're on the uh uh I think I know what you're saying but in the beginning it starts out as negative reinforcement right it's it's not it's not a correction we don't like we teach the correction comes through understanding the pressure to do something which is negative reinforcement right so we introduce pressure let me let me say real quick because basically that's what it's I'm going to say basically again that's what a plus correction is theoretically is negative reinforcement because it it makes them do the one Behavior right they they can escape it or avoid it by doing that behavior but yeah go on I understand yeah right right right but I was talking about the Finish thing yeah I was talking about the finished thing and you're talking about from the beginning of training yeah from the beginning yeah from the introduction of it so we start with negative reinforcement and as it's taught in the schools I think it's important that we stick to the language that is the terminology dictated uh in the school silver school and gold school and that goes for both silver students non-s silver students and Golds and gold multiplicators I think everyone needs to stick to the same terminology and quit trying to conflate terms or to superimpose your own terminology onto something that isn't necessarily described or defined in the school so again the pressure of negative reinforcement it we use it and we introduce it in a way that that pressure predicts the reward the dog starts to learn that as soon as it fills pressure it knows there's the possibility for reward opportunity if it does the right thing by by finding where that pressure is relieved and removed that's what cues the dog to understand this one Behavior where pressure was removed is what unlocks the opportunity for for reward now rinse and repeat that many times to where you get the dog where as soon as they feel

pressure they they go into action into specific behaviors right because they know those behaviors get rid of pressure now when the dog decides not to do a cued Behavior then the pressure can follow after the fact after the Disobedience and now because it comes after the Disobedience it is now a correction but the dog understands it you have prepared the dog for the inevitable correction it is going to receive because it gets distracted by something else it smells another dog it smells it sees a car a kid on a bike a butterfly a cheeseburger on the floor when it's supposed to be uh detecting narcotics um and and that's again pressure predicts the reward U we're preparing the dog to understand how to deal with the inevitable correction it will receive when it does something down the road it it it shouldn't do because there will always come a day where it does something like that right yeah that's the thing it's the buildup the teaching the understanding by the dog that how to turn it off what it means and it has to go that way yep it has to go that way because the must component everyone's confused about what is the must key what is the must do button right that is the pressure that is inescapable from the dog that is introduced into the situation and only only when the dog complies or acts in a certain way is that pressure relieved that's why it is a must you button because the pressure will not go away until that certain thing is completed right and a lot of the commentaries about oh you can have a you can have a negative verbal marker indicating that negative punishment is about to happen which acts as a Musto button that is not a Musto button because the dog can fake what if the dog fakes you out what if he says what if you say go to place and the dog runs to place and you s and and you say uhuh or no and the dog maybe maybe for a second thinks oh and then he goes back to place because he stepped over or didn't quite get on top of place and then he's like oh but nothing happens and nothing changes and he's like because the pressure is the it's not the removal of something that is the musy it's the presence it's the it's the presence of that pressure that is the mus key it is the immediate it is the immediate problem the dog is faced with to resolve itself to find itself more comfortable in its in its around in its surroundings and in its current situation yeah so yeah I mean like what you said is perfect you introduce in the beginning what it means to turn it off right and then the reward then you introduce how what behaviors how behaviors turn it off right and it's always like in the beginning it's low

levels then you get to the you start going to the point where the dog is making mistakes and they learn oh if I don't do this the pressure will come and I will turn it off by doing the behavior and you're always working to the point where they avoid it they avoid that pressure okay but like Bart and Michael say there's a million pictures you can show your dog but there's another five million that you've never been able to train and the point like you brought up the negative punishment marker right the thing with that is can that work it can work but it's not a mus key because if you give that marker and the dog doesn't do now what do you do that's the point you have no you have no followup that's where you have the must key that will come and tell the dog you must do this right and and if they if if they say uhuh or no and the dog doesn't do guess what they're gonna do they're gonna go back to the true must key which is the pressure right so so it is not it's it's all it is is a marker it's a negative punishment marker that indicates the potential of negative punishment taking something away you're losing the opportunity that is not synonymous and also just to remind everybody it is not the way that the mus key is instructed and taught to students in the silver school by B Michael and we need to stick thing we need to stick to those definitions the nap training you are getting you're trying to get to the point where the dog avoids the muskey by doing the behavior every time but that's it you must have it available that one time when your dog does not avoid it and decides not to do and you have to be able to implement it right then okay it's like if you take away the ball for them not doing something you say uhuh and you take the ball away you can't take the ball away harder to make it make more sense to the dog right everybody knows if the dog knows you have a reward it's different right because in that moment you take it away they're going to like oh I want my reward I'm going to go do the thing yes no this is when you go out in your dog wakes you up at 2 am right you go out to let him go to the bathroom and there's a fraking bear in your yard if you live around those places right there's no rewards there's no ball that you took away there's no food you took away right in that case their dog's never seen a bear before that's the point if you have a dog it's like if you don't have something to make your dog come back your dog they don't you're screwed right you're losing your dog yeah like there was a video online recently where the dog the dog is chasing a bear down the road and ladies just calling in and

calling in and calling in and it was just kept going it was like going after this bear the bear I mean the bear was like 100 yards away and the dog was running after it finally it stopped when it got far enough away and it came back but it didn't happen because the person made it happen they were calling and yelling whatever it decided to do it on its own right right if had not decided to come there was nothing you could do unless you had training and you had built that musky in the dog right and that's the thing that it's yes we train the dog to avoid the mus key but the mus key is there for when the dog sticks up its middle finger and says I'm not doing it yeah so two things about this is two things about this uh uh this topic is again because there was a lot of conversations saying that positive reinforcement and negative punishment as inter Ed as they are still has a mus key I disagree I think we both disagree that it has a must key and it's and the reason is because when you already remove the opportunity if you indicate that the oh uhuh or no you're going to lose I'm and I'm going to take away because the punishment of positive reinforcement is negative punishment right that's that's a actually that's a question on the test um but I might have to edit that out but the punishment of positive reinforcement is negative punishment that means if you cue the dog that says in my in my training construct I'm about to take something away and you take that thing away to make the dog do if the dog doesn't do you can't take it away further you can't you can't say oh I'm putting your I'm gonna lock your food up instead of just put it back in the bag I'm G to lock it up in a container and now you're like the you have to look at it from the dog's perspective they don't understand they they don't have that rationale they don't have they don't understand fear of missing out which is why we go into another conversation which is why negative aversive does not exist because the dogs don't have the reasoning ability to say that I can make a choice like dogs we can't we can't say hey you've got this choice you can choose the ball or you can or I can take it away or you can do this like they're not juggling they're not making that rationale in their head they don't have that ability so they the cost benefit analysis is it doesn't take place in a dog's mind because they do not have that re fomo is a one-way Street for the dog they only understand fear of missing out is one thing they can't say they're not raiding what's what do I want to lose out on more right and and back to your comment about the teaching so Escape avoidance

training Escape training is negative reinforcement training you're teaching the dog to get away from it punishment positive punishment is avoidance training so you teach in negative reinforcement to you teach them how to escape and you can't learn to avoid until you've learned to escape otherwise you some dogs will get mired in the punishment and they then they experience learned helplessness and they shut down and then they experience like a a me a mental meltdown right so the positive punishment quadrant is the avoidant quadrant you're teaching the dog what not to do negative reinforcement is the quadrant of Escape training you're teaching the dog how to get away from pressure that's the delineation and that's how we need to look at those two quadrants yes yeah that's perfect that's perfect you said that um I was just thinking of something but you were talking in and now you put it back oh yeah yeah the thing is with that is with that like removing something like like you said what happen happens is this if you remove it the dog is with a negative I'm not going to say negative revers negative punishment right right what you're teaching the dog is like make a different decision choose another behavior is what you're doing it's an open-ended decision for them too you're you're allowing them the freedom to make that choice it's not it's a non-guided direct uh it's a non-guided push yeah it's a choice that in the future they will try they will say oh last time that I did made this Choice the the thing I wanted went away this time let me choose something else so that's why it's not aversive in the way that it's not aversive in the meaning of something that's aversive it's just that didn't work try something else right and then that didn't work try something else that didn't work tried something else and then they find oh this works I will keep doing that because this works and they found that out through trial and error not through directional but it's also because what do you do at the end of training right you put the toy away you have to put the toy away at sometime when you're training so regular training you put the toy away when you're doing negative punishment you put the toy away so the first time right the dog is is in the beginning is not going to understand what that means means because it's not it's not aversive to them they're just like oh okay we're done training it's going to take a while and that's the other thing with that it takes a while for the dog to understand you have to teach it what it means right as opposed to when you use negative reinforcement or positive punishment the dog knows what it means right

away right there's exactly immediate action so for the people that are out there training positive reinforcement negative punishment only right that's why it that's why negative punishment is and cannot be a must key no matter how powerful it is for the dog that drive that hunger it's still not a Musky because it in order to build to the point where it is highly motivating it requires time to pass right you yeah but I think that's but the musy has to be able to be used in the moment and that's that's if your dog says no to your marker or your QE or anything your negative punishment marker if even after the negative punish marker your dog says no you have to be able that's when you pull out the mus key and you make it happen right then that's the point it's no matter how much you've trained and how good your dog is that mus key is one to teach them to avoid it and then two if they don't want to avoid it and they still take their chance you have to be able to make it happen right then and that's the point and to be clear negative punishment is very powerful it just requires a different timeline than the positive punishment does right it's it can be equally or in some cases more powerful than positive punishment it just has a different timeline and a different effective its effect is in the future yes it's not in the moment exact exactly yes it influences future it influ it influences future behavior and decisions whereas positive punishment influences present or in the moment decisions yep and future I mean and future like it's the yeah but it can it's right then stop digging if your dog is digging and you add positive punishment your dog will stop digging if it's aversive enough right that's the point it will stop digging now right but if it's your dog is digging you go hey I'm not gonna give you the ball and he looks at you and goes I'm GNA keep digging yeah because then it then it just blows off the the thing that you thought was the most valuable thing in its life and now you just discovered there's something more valuable than the ball but also just like with positive reinforcement where the dog is doing the behavior trying to get that reward right with negative punishment the dog is in pursuit of that thing in order to do the it's doing the behavior in pursuit of that thing and if you remove it now it has to choose a different Behavior does that make sense yeah like it's only doing the behavior because of that thing you have that it's going to get that's why you remove it because it didn't do the right Behavior right it's that's why it's the opposite of postive reinforcement because it's it's the same

thing postive reinforcement it's the pursuit of that thing that causes the behavior negative punishment the pursuit of that thing was what was G to was pushing the behavior but they did the wrong one so you take it away so the pursuit of that will change the behavior in the future right but it has to be something they want that's we talked about that before if if it's yeah if it's not something they want then right it's not nothing yeah and this is this makes for another interesting segue into um another aspect of uses of punishment is where you know some people and I've seen you know people from Europe do this uh there's a lot of people that are training this way here in the States now um but the reason why uh people are punishing away from a a behavior so say you're in the healing dog looks away rather than continue forward in healing and apply a positive punishment they're discontinuing the motion or the activity which is the healing and they're stepping away from that location providing consequence to the dog I liked how you broke it down when we were talking about this this was a a while ago but you broke it down saying that that's an effective method because a lot of people like it and it's useful because you don't you're not required to punish at the level or intensity that you would if the dog was in The Driven Behavior because the dog is now taken out of that behavior and they're out of drive as well so the punishment becomes more effective at a lower level um and you've removed them from that situation which is also in in in essence a little bit of negative punishment because you're taking them away from something that they supposedly enjoy doing or find rewarding right continuing to heal is rewarding continuing to bite is also rewarding right um and things like that so like on the uses of of punishment you know there are a lot of creative ways to do it um but it's it's just interesting to see everyone's stylistic approach to the utilization of the the two quadrants for punishment right yeah I mean what it comes down to is are you clear to your dog are you communicating clearly to your dog so they understand what is going on yeah whatever method you use if you do it in Behavior if you do it out of behavior is it clear to your dog and does it lead to your dog keeping their motivation and learning to not go out of that behavior right I'll add one more thing on top of that is are you using the correct terminology and understanding why it's being done the way it's being done too like can you define it with the correct terminology and correct definitions so that you can explain it to other people right because

that's important right you know we're seeing a lot of people talk about the quadrant and um in our last episode where we talked about how people confuse reward with reinforcement and they get those two quadrants mixed up and they think negative reinforcement is just taking a reward away when it's really not um you know it's it's important for people that involve themselves in dog training to understand and know what they're doing so they can explain why they're doing it yeah but and going back to puppies right where I remember someone had asked like if your dog doesn't do something when it's a puppy what do you do and that was the thing is like when the whole thing with anything is does your dog understand right a puppy's not going to understand yet so you just stop what you're doing and come back later because it doesn't know what's going on so there's no like using any kind of uh strong pressure to make something happen with a puppy because it doesn't understand right the whole thing with that is yep is the dog understanding first and that's the whole point is of teaching what the dog what it means exactly it's it's the S it's again the puppy has not been prepared to understand the correction it will receive and when it does get that correction it doesn't know how to handle it or how to how to deal with it in a way that is constructive for the dog situation right it's it's the same example as you know a correction in a in a language that the dog doesn't understand will always be perceived as aversive right that's that's a that's a concept taught in in the the silver school so if the dog only knows positive reinforcement coming in with a positive punishment correction is not going to make sense to the dog and it's going to throw send that dog into popon yeah uh oh that reminds me of you know when we when we have puppies in neop po we start with teaching them tactile pressure right and the classic way ways to sit to down the stand okay but what I see a lot of is there's a misunderstanding of that and what people are calling tactile pressure is actually just classically conditioning a signal to mean sit or stand or down because what they're doing is like they'll tap the butt they tap the butt tap the butt tap the butt and that is that's not teaching the dog to escape pressure really because that tapping is nothing that's just creating a signal that means sit because usually they'll use you know some form of luring no matter how little you move your hand your dog is reading that right so they'll have food in a hand and tap the butt and then the dog will sit but usually it's because the hand is moving

so that is just becoming a classical conditioned signal it's not tactile pressure same thing with a down they tap the shoulders the dog goes into a down they feed they tap underneath that to me is not tactile pressure teaching the dog how to live with pressure right teaching the puppy with tactile pressure is keeping that pressure on there where they learn to overcome it and learn to be comfortable with it later it becomes a tap which is the same progression as a learning pyramid later that pressure will become a t but the beginning it's it's pressure all the way to show the dog because how many dogs do you see when you put your hand on their shoulders they turn around and try to get out from under it right that's the purpose of tactile pressure is teaching the dog hey do this behavior and it'll turn off right and strengthen making them stronger to that so that any little touch doesn't freak them out you know they've lived through the pressure and when done correctly if you if you use the tactile pressure the dog doesn't do then you speak louder with that pressure than the dog does and now it is both a q and or uh a re negative reinforcement and a correction yeah when the dog understands right but that's what's capable and that's the goal right is to be able to use itre it's it's to be able to use it to send the dog to go and then to stop the dog at the same time there's another mistake I see that people make using this the healing scks or whatever right well what happens is you cannot teach the healing sticks from the front of the dog you know when you tap their butt and they sit tap their shoulders then down you can't do that from the front of the dog right because what happens is you have to lean over so you leaning over becomes the queue to the dog to sit it's part of the queue it's picture yeah and it's not the pressure from the tap spal it's not even avoiding the tap in that instance it's your leaning over is has become a que to sit right right that's why it should be from the side from the side right or behind yep either have your food in your hand you have a treating train you have a bowl of food on the ground you have a ball on the ground you have something a Target because now their focus is on that now you actually are giving tactile commands yeah right without any body cues or body body language but it's it's just little things that I notice um you know the way they're done which is the I think that what people think is not what actually is happening sure oh for always always in most cases um and I will say this like I've never really had a strong desire [Music] to to breed any dog just because of I

I'm so familiar with what goes into it and that's it's just a lot of work however it's one it's one thing I probably will find a way to you know be closely participating in in the process of like a breeding eventually so that I have the experience to like educate myself more about neonatal puppies right like or postnatal puppies um to understand more about their cognitive development Social Development processes because all of my puppy experience has been with the exception of like a handful of times that I've met uh some of my friends dogs that they've BR and they've got super breeding programs and they've been kind enough to let me meet the dogs before they were like six five six weeks old so I I was there when I seen some puppies before their eyes opened and some after their eyes opened in about four weeks and that's something that I think would be very informative because there's a lot of Purity uh in those dogs right you you really see interesting behaviors that are just truly the nature of the dog um and and that's one thing when when going back to our conversation on puppies is you know there's not not saying that everyone should go out and breed a breed a dog so they can understand that but like for me that's one thing I feel like would be really uh educational for me um to to be you know to get more of that exposure um just talking about puppies that was a thought that cropped up into my mind there was a there's a breeder here in town that they they have their group of owners and people they know whenever they have a litter if you're part of their group you go you can go pick up a puppy and take it with you shopping and then come back like from five week old six week old like they encourage that to expose the puppies to the environment so you can go get a puppy for the day bring it back later like I think that's the best thing to do for for very young puppies to expose them to everyday life I can see that the one the one thing that like throws up a flag for me though is like making sure that the dog stays safe right you know the staying away from like contaminated areas like that would be a concern for me I and if I was like a a perspective like puppy owner I'd be Paran noyed about doing that myself but there but that's the thing they these people are already like they've owned dogs from that breeder the breeder knows them right it's not just some random person coming and getting the dogs right you know yeah which is something like I remember I asked my uh vet that I know because the whole thing with immunity right this wait until they get the third set of shots before you take them out but I asked them I was like

when is the dog actually protected when they get their their vaccinations right and he said after the second set they're pretty much good you don't actually have to wait till the third set but of course you're still going to be careful because even dogs that been vaccinated they still catch stuff they still run they can get kennel cof or whatever it is so it's not yeah they're protected but it's just it's more of you being careful because I take out my puppies all the time like from when I first get them it doesn't matter how many shots they've had now do I always put them down no do I let everybody touch them no but there's still even if I'm carrying them around they're still getting exposed to everything you know the environment The Sounds the smells they don't have to run around on the ground to you know be exposed to that and then you can do that regardless of uh how many vaccines they've had yeah we kind of went off the puppies a little I mean it was all had to do with puppies but it wasn't specifically it all came back around it all came back around I was running I was running out of ideas on puppies and and my food coma from a late lunch was like really just came on like a freight train and then and then that conversation took off and it woke me up so it's probably probably for the best otherwise you'd see me nodding off here but uh oh talking about food with puppies that's another thing I do is I use I mean the the pool the baby pool with the the balls in it throwing their food in there having them find it which is also teaching to deal with pressure because the ball they have to put their heads in the balls right I just add more and more balls depending on the dogs like as I go to make it where they actually have to stick their head down in there right climbing on stuff tarps having them walk on tarps that are all not just flat on the ground but you know that you kind of scrunched up um and can bottles just having them run through things to get to get their food just everything to beginning is just strengthening right as much as possible yeah cool awesome well that's a pretty pretty good pretty good uh hour and a half of conversation for sure um uh but I I got to say your your your insights on the the luring onto the the shopping carts the pallets and everything at Home Depot and your observations in your own dogs that were causing them to find that behavior rewarding like while we and the people who do that they do it in in an ex in order to desensitize the dogs to unstable surfaces wobbly surfaces things like that it does it it makes a lot of sense why that causes dogs to want to do

that down the road and maybe like causes some problems but I think a lot of people would probably say well I'll take that problem over a dog that won't get up on it or something like that so you know who know yeah but you don't that's the thing with puppies you don't have to do it 20 times right you do it own you know yeah so anyways um all right well uh anything you got anything else that is it all right Mike uh it's always great talking to you appreciate your insights they're always informative and again we can't say this enough uh we thank you for your likes your shares and your subscriptions uh to uh the channels this is available on YouTube or on Apple podcasts hoping to be able to get this onto the Spotify platform for the Android users uh or if that's where you choose to listen to your and download your stream streamable content so uh just be patient with us and we'll we'll get there soon enough and also I mean we have a combined gold school for all those that may that have finished silver and that may be going to the new online silver we do have our gold School in October in Texas yes come see us in Texas come eat some good good Tex mechs with us train dogs of course yeah train dogs train people and if you're not completed with your silver jump online be one of the first 100 uh people to get access to online silver and then come see us for gold School in Texas all right everybody body we're signing off for another one today this was number 11 thanks for joining us on the full quadrant podcast talk to you soon