구조견 행동: 나딘 헬리 및 시모네 파셀과 함께하는 재입양견 훈련 채팅 #207 #팟캐스트

Because she's not big, but she's just, yeah, like a lot of dog. That's true. We already knew she had a lot of behavioral issues. So, we got her a really long list. But we didn't know that she has also really severe separation anxiety. And we noticed, of course, immediately that this was… So, what did they tell you was her… How did they describe her? That might be better. Um, she was… She had too much energy for everybody to handle her. And she had a very strong hunting instinct. And actually, she was described as that bad a puller on leash that nobody would take for her for walks anymore. Wow. And yeah. Yeah. And she was like, afraid of people, afraid of other dogs. Like, there was a lot of excitement for her. But at the same time, she was scared of stuff. So, it's just… It was just difficult to handle her. But we were kind of prepared for all of this, but not actually for the separation anxiety. So, that was just like on top of it. So, yeah. It was very on top of your gift. So, now, in a situation like that, it's so easy for people, and I've heard it when people rescue dogs, that they label those dogs by their past faults or their past mistakes. And so, was that something that ever happened to the two of you? Well, we try not to do it. Because I think, especially with rescue dogs, it's so important to not be intimidated by a label. Because it doesn't really matter, right? Like, it's just… You just want to get the first training steps in. Like, it's not about what people describe the dog to be. But it's just about how can you take the first steps and then just go from there. But it's certainly an area where there will be a lot of labels. So, normally, the whole description of a rescue dog, when you read it online, it's normally a lot of labels. So, yeah. We really feel you shouldn't be intimidated by labels others have put on that dog. So… We had another… Go ahead. Go ahead, Nadine. We had another case the year before, which was quite an extreme aggression case, a foster dog that we took in. But it didn't matter to us. Like, the first step this dog took into our house, we just… We never really talked about his aggression anymore. We just started his training and we just… Like, we were very careful with him, obviously, when we, like, handled him and everything. But it was just about starting the training, just about… Yeah. We always change the name of the dog and then a new chapter starts. Exactly. I try to get people to do that. It's just a new story. For sure. For sure. So, during the training, you know all about the hunting instinct that's so strong

and her wanting to pull, the surprise of the separation anxiety. Was there any time during the process where you just went, like, what have we gotten ourselves into? This is crazy. Actually, no. Because we so much trust the process. Oh, I love it. And actually, really, of course, thanks to you, we now feel so… Yeah. Yeah. We feel secure with just taking these training steps. And like, if there is a point where you might say, well, it's not, like, going fast enough or it's not, like, the exactly correct direction or something, then you can always change something, right? You can always think about what else can we do? What other approaches might there be? Mm-hmm. I think that a lot of times, especially with rescues, and I know a lot of people reading or listening to this have had rescues or maybe are thinking of getting a rescue, but we have this vision in our mind of really, this is what it's supposed to be like with a dog. And then we have the reality of, this is what it's like. And that big gap is what causes so much second doubt, so many people feeling anxious, and really anxiety and stress comes in. And we see it even in our online students, and probably you guys see it in your students, where people go, this isn't working, or I don't know what else to do, or I'm so frustrated. And when I see people writing things like that, I know that you have a vision of where you should be instead of looking at where you are and saying, what can I do? What one thing can I do today to make this dog's life more joyful? And when we focus just on that joy, then things just keep getting better. So, but it's hard, it's difficult for many people. But like you said, if you can just trust the process, and it's not about the dog you think you want, or you think you should have, it's about the dog in front of you. And back to do you love her? And I know you two loved her right from the moment you got her. Yeah, definitely. Yes, that makes a big difference. So is there something you say to your students when they get stuck in that gap, and then they start blaming the dog and saying this dog isn't teachable, or this dog can't learn whatever? Yeah, we always try to. So it's always important not to focus too much on the problem behaviors. Actually, you don't have to get rid of problem behaviors. First, you can just start building new desired behaviors. And this will also help keep you motivated, because you will see a success in every training step. And every living being has just 24 hours, years, except maybe Susan Garrett. You must have some more hours. You must have some more hours.

And I mean, if the dog has less time to practice the unwanted behavior, and uses up more time to exercise the desired behavior, yeah, you will be easily motivated to keep on. Yeah, like, for example, with the leash walking, like, it's not even necessary to think about the pulling and think about how can we stop the pulling, you just start to teach, like healing, like you just it's fun walking by my side. Yes. Yeah, it's not the focus shouldn't be on the stopping of something right like that. Because I think, when you're doing that, again, you're just creating more anxiety for yourself. She's still pulling, she's not stopping. No, well, how's her healing? How's your reinforcement? It's hard to fight against reinforcers that have been built up for years in Frida's case, just for one year. But yeah, this is a great quote from Tristan, it's so hard to check our expectations and egos at the door. It's just so important. Our dogs need that from us. They absolutely they need it. And it's super tough. And so now you've added a new puppy. And how's that dynamics in your house? Oh, actually, we took it very slow at the beginning. So we always like, just introduce a new dog, like one at a time to the other ones. And then we would first just bring them together on walks. And then we use like, gates in the house to just take it slow. And like this now we are on a really good track. And like, there is more excitement again, of course, because everything changes a little bit. But it's, yeah, Frida is actually pretty fantastic. Yeah. And it's, it's, it's so worth the time because we really want them to be really great friends for many, many years. So we, we like to take it slow and really, yeah, built a good relationship, built a good relationship. Yeah, it's worth that investment for sure. If there's one thing you wish that pet owners understood that if they understood this one thing, that their life with their dog would be so much easier, their life with their dog, they'd be more harmonious. What would you say that one thing would be? I will go first. And I would just say, really see the front at the dog in front of you, as you already said, Susan. So it's so important to not think in labels, but just watch the behavior and then go one step from there. So you just see what the dog is doing. And then you decide what will be the next step you need. And then there will always be success. Yeah, that's it. I think it's about layers, like, because all of the training is done in layers, right? And the magical thing about layers is that

at some point, there will be this magical moment, where you will have a situation that you maybe did not prepare for, but it still works out completely great, because everything like comes together, like all of the training that you have done. And like all the layers, like come together, and then you just realize like, wow, like with Frida, I had several of these moments, like, wow, now she's able to do this. But I haven't really prepared. Well, I have prepared her with the layers, but not like this specific situation, right? So then it like, like the efficiency of the training just expels, excels. Yeah, yeah. And I think those are two really good ones that if people understood that behavior is more consistent, it's easier for you, it's easier for the dog to have consistency, if there are tiny layers versus trying to get something in a big step. Like you're trying to get your dog to jump up on something, and you use a cookie, right? You're trying to get them onto the top of something. And you know, what I might do is take the mat that's on the top of it and put it on the ground and shape them to jump on there and have joy for that. And then we might take that whatever big high thing and lower it half that distance and then put that mat on there. They'll jump up easy. Boom, boom, boom, boom. You know, you could get them with a cookie lure, but there's, you're building in that, that hesitancy, that unsure, and you're probably going to have to go back to it many, many times. But what we're talking about is empowering the dog. And I think, remember last week when we were on a Zoom, so the three of us jump on Zoom and we geek out about science, we were talking about the power of choice, but by empowering a dog, that what is more reinforcing than reinforcement? And that is that the dog has agency to be in control of their reinforcement. And I think shaping behaviors is a big part of that. Definitely. Like there, there is control all the time, right? Like in, yeah, in, in shaping, the dog is in control. And then, yeah, this control is just a huge reinforcer for them itself. So like this, yes, it's just, and it's maybe especially, it can be especially seen in dogs who are afraid of different things. So Frida really panicked in different situations and giving her this training, this choice-based training where she was really in control. Actually, when we did pick the puppy up, she, she traveled with us and was the first time in a hotel and she was just a superstar, really, because she felt like I am control, in control here. And she would

have been freaked out. Yeah. Yeah. In the beginning, but now, thanks to those layers and thanks to really experiencing that she is in charge of the situations. Yeah. Which is funny because when I first started dog training as a balanced dog trainer, back then it was all about being in control of the dog. You need to correct them so that they know you're in control. They need to know that they have to. And the funny thing is that, I mean, my dogs back then were wonderful in spite of how I trained them, but that when we give them that power of that control, that the understanding and the willingness to do as we ask. So the irony is what people try to get by making a dog do something comes naturally when you hand over the control and you allow the dog to guide the session. And unless you really understand layers of learning, it may sound like we're letting these dogs run amok and do anything they want, but it's not, it's just, it's choice based training where you set up all of the contingencies to get the behavior you want so that you can reinforce the dog. I mean, that's, that's all we. And it's so important for the mental health of every living being to be in control. Yeah. So if we don't have the feeling of control, it's where depressions start. Yeah. Yeah. That's such a great point is, yeah. Think of times when you see that you have no power over what people are saying or doing and yeah, at first you might be frustrated, but what if you're locked into that, that what that would do to your, your spirit first, then your mind and then your body. So this is a great quote from Kate. Most people I see want a quick fix because they feel the layers take too long. What they don't realize is management lasts the whole lifetime. That is another ironic thing that you don't want to be bothered putting in the layers. You don't have time to put in the layers for your dog, which honestly that I kind of have a problem with that mentality because I've decided you're not worth the investment of my time. Therefore that gives me the right to use force to get you to do what I want. And I think maybe a goldfish would have been a better choice of a pet then. So, um, but actually it really doesn't take long. So I think we don't have that's the misunderstanding. Yeah, completely. I mean, we don't have Frida for a year now. It's not no only for several months. And I mean, she's people would think she's, uh, yeah, from very plant breeding and excellent upbringing and fantastic training from the beginning. So yeah. It was like super fast with her. How old was she when you got her?

She was one year when we got her. Okay. So similar to tater salad then. Oh yes. Oh yes. It was 15 months. I think when we got her. That is the craziness is that people don't realize how fast this happens. Yes. Yes. So the Frida, it was super fast. Like we had some really great successes after 10 days. And then of course, everything had to be generalized more and like, and of course there was more training happening. And then after two months, like she was, she was just a pet and just not be always on the first day. We start with the first three colors exercise, and then we just progress with the games. That's amazing. And that is how it happens. If like Simone said at the beginning, trust the process, right? When you just play the games and even if you aren't a hundred percent sure, let the dog tell you if things are going well. And if your only measure is the dog's level of willingness to play with you, their willingness to buy into that session, the temp that says I'm having fun. Right. And if that's your, that's all you need as your benchmark, it being correct isn't as important as that. Absolutely. Very true. Yes. Yes. And I also, I think it's like any, like all the training you can do, like as soon as you start, there will be an improvement. Like it's, yeah, it's just, um, like, uh, you can do so much training and then there will be so much improvement. Like, it's just, yeah, just follows the rules. So what about the people who they're first time dog owner and they have a problem? Like all of this sounds really good because the three of us are professional dog trainers. How can we instill in that first time dog trainer, there is light at the end of the tunnel and it's not a train. Like how do we get them to trust the process? We certainly would always suggest finding a mentor. So in every area of life, it's so good to, to be coached and yeah, to have somebody sharing their knowledge, which you so graciously do. So, uh, we would always suggest joining recallers, of course, for a first time dog. Right. That's actually, that's a really good point because there's so much content that people put out for free online and not all of it is really worth investing your time in. So there's something more important than investing your money in a program. Yes. So recallers, I think it's probably $500 and on the website it's seven or $800. So it is, people's got $500, that's an investment, but worse than the $500 is the investment of your time spending a year trying to do something with your dog. That isn't the right path. And you're going to end up in a worse place if you invest in it.

And that's something I believed in. It's such an important point, Simone, everything I've ever done when I wanted to learn about fitness, when I wanted to learn about sprinting, when I wanted to learn about music or about business, about, of course, animal training. It's always, I've always, always had, you know, many more than just one mentor in a year. So that's great. Yeah. Yeah. And that's awesome that people can join recallers tonight, because of course, there is so much awesome information now with 200 podcast episodes. But of course, like the step by, like, if you just need the step by step and just need the program to like, this is where you start, this is the first game. And then from there, you go to the second game and so on. So yeah, definitely. I actually started the podcast for our recaller students because I looked at recallers as the, like the foundation blocks to have this amazing relationship, but maybe those blocks needed some mortar in between and to fill in the gaps so that people had a better understanding of what we were sharing in recallers. And so that's really why we started the podcast was to help bring clarity and confidence to that. And so, yeah, that was the motivation to, to get the podcast going. And then, of course, we understood that we were helping so many other dog owners that maybe lived in a country where they couldn't afford to, to join one of our programs. But, but when it's possible for you, that's exactly what Nadine did. Were you, you were a member of recallers before you started following me to seminars, right? When I was in Europe. We actually started with the sport of agility to be able to come to an agility seminar with you. Yes. So yes, we were in recallers already. And then we saw, oh, she's coming to Europe, but it was for agility. So then we were like, okay, we have to train a dog. So at least some agility. So then we can participate. And we did. That's what we did. That is so funny. And then, yeah, later on, she came in and answered a job to come and be here and be mentored. And, and then that it's just, how many times were you over here in, was it two or three times mentoring? It was four times. It was four times. One year, it was twice. So, oh, that's right. So it's been amazing. So we're just going to keep talking because, oh, so this morning, Linda and I were talking about how, and this was mentioned in the podcast. And that was the first thing you talked about. Linda's in a course group where there is it, is it rehabilitation fear in horses? Is that what

you're talking about? And so it's behavior. And they talk about that. It's not just training. It's the physiology of the animal, right? It's the, in horses, generally, we talk about the need for friends and freedom. No, there's another F friends, forging and freedom, right? So with, with dogs, like we, we, we have to fill their, their cup, their spiritual cup. We have to fill what they need and it's nutrition and it's exercise and it's whatever that enrichment is for that particular breed. So a breed like Frida, I bet you scenting is a big part of what fills her cup. And so, definitely. Most people just go to, yeah. And the social part too, like she's, she's a very social dog too. So she really also needs the interaction with, with other dogs. Mm-hmm. And I was saying this, I was out for supper with a couple of friends who had a problem with their dog. And, and I said, there's some things that will take you years to incrementally improve on a behavior problem. That if you change the nutrition, that you will see a change in that dog, like the brain fog gets lifted. So, you know, there's just so many other things other than just, how can we fix this? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. If you think about, look at the whole animal. Stress is, um, affecting the digestive system, but it's also the other way around. So the digestion is also, uh, um, affecting how the, the, the brain works. So if we really take care of good nutrition, it will just, uh, help improve behavior. So we always feel that's a super important, uh, part. And also there we work with our, um, special coach who helps us find the best. Yeah. We all need a mentor. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. So with every dog we take in also every foster dog, we would also look at the nutrition, uh, on the first day too, and try to figure it all out and, uh, improve. And this is, it is a huge part as, as you say. And I mean, when we took Frida in, she really, I have never seen such cheap food. Uh, we've worked a long time in rescue, but it was the cheapest food I've ever seen. And of course her digestive system was just, uh, ruined. So of course you need to take care of the microbiome and, uh, this will, yeah, help improve, uh, the behavior. And then the other thing you said about, uh, exercise that's, I think that's a huge one too. Like, uh, also with the example with, uh, Frida, that was like, because she's a dog with so much energy, right. And, uh, before she came to us, she was, uh, living like in a backyard and not getting any exercise anymore. So, uh, then we started

also to build her body up actually. And just to, yeah. So now she can, uh, go for this, like, like I, um, take her with the bike and she just runs and she just can get all this energy out of her body. So this is a huge part of course, too, of, of everything. This is such a, you know, John said, I need a mentor to bounce ideas off. And this is how it works. You decide where your passion is. And for most of people watching this, it is dogs. And then you, you decide what mentor, what community is your people. And then you join in the community of it. And that's where people will come to homeschool, the dog or recallers, or just hang out at Shaped by Dogs. And then, then you decide, okay, I've got the hang of it. I want to elevate my, my understanding. And so you then will go to a higher level. So in our program, we have the inner circle, which is a smaller intimate group where we do have more, what you have one-on-one discussions. And then everyone's in a while, if we put out, we've got a mentorship, then, uh, then you get to pick my brain. Thank you, ladies. I'm going to let you go. Uh, thank you for being here. You're amazing. Thank you so much. A lot of people we're talking to tonight. There's going to be a lot of barking. Thank you. Thanks.