에피소드 36: Vadim Plotsker

And this was in the very early 90s. Of course, at that time, I didn't have the dog for it. So I did the best I could with the dog I had, which wasn't much. But then Jim, you might know him. You may not know him. He used to be a competitor, New England region, you know, North Americans. And he was a helper in the southwest region. I think Jim and T, actually, T. Floyd were together back in the southwest in Arizona at one point. But he's the one that got me started in the sport in the very early 90s. And I owe him a lot for that. And then Jim always told me that if I wanted to have – if I wanted to be in a Formula One race, I had to have a Formula One car. So at some point, you know, I watched Jim train with his dog. And his dog was a few times New England regional champion, you know, V-dog in the North Americans and things like that. And I'm like, I want a dog like that, too. And then I just – So you pretty much got hooked right away then. Yeah, right away, yeah. And I started as a helper. You know, so I did a lot of – you know, pretty much my whole life. I've done helper work. I mean, now that I'm older and slower, I'm slowing down. But I still like to develop young dogs and bring them along. But, yeah, my whole beginning of my career was working as a helper. That's awesome. I just – I tried to avoid it as much as – I shouldn't say avoid it. We're old. We're old. Yeah, trying to kind of – not to do stupid things at least. But I just worked like right before we sat down to talk a dog and tagged me. And so I'm like – I was like, I don't mind doing – put a band-aid or what do I do? It's like, okay, it's just another little thing. How about the judging? When did you feel that – Yeah, so like judging is kind of like a natural progression, I think, for a lot of people that have a passion for the sport. And then you want to – you know, I personally wanted to give back. And I'll give a lot of credit to Frank Phillips who got me – who kind of got me hooked into judging. But I felt like I can – I felt like I was in a really good training group. We knew what right looked like. I feel like I know what right looks like. I mean, of course, as a judge, you make mistakes and things. But I still feel like I feel very passionately about rewarding great routines and great dogs with power and energy. And I felt like it was my opportunity to not just give back to the community, work in the community, but also to put my own kind of like – it might sound a little arrogant or something, but my own stamp on this is where – you know, because that's what judges do. We give feedback to training. That's exactly right.

And I kind of put my own stamp on like this is what I think is the training that deserves, you know, a V score, an SG score, a G or a satisfactory. And I kind of just went from there. And then sometimes different opportunities presented themselves. And, of course, judging regionals is a lot of fun. Judging nationals is a little more stress and focus. And then judging world championship was a lot of – was a lot because it's five days of judging. What do you – did at any point during the world felt comfortable, more comfortable than – or was it fluctuating? I honestly thought that I would be a lot more nervous judging the world than I was. And it took me maybe one flight of dogs to find my rhythm and the critiques because I was a little clumsy in the beginning because in the world you've got to keep it short but still say enough. Mm-hmm. And then – but then things picked up. But I felt like I did a – I felt like I did the best I could. And actually, I thought I was going to be tired after five days. And on the fifth day on Sunday, I got like a second win. So I felt like I could go another three days judging. Oh, wow. But there was a time – there was a time because we all got sick during this whole – during the Denmark world championship. So myself, Wilfred Tauts were sick. So we're popping, you know, Tylenol and cold medication and stuff like that. And the weather in Denmark, of course, is miserable. That was the worst part about it. But I honestly thought I'd be a lot more nervous than I was. But then I have my score sheets, which kind of give me a nice grounding platform. So it goes through the sequence, the routine, you know, basically in sequence. And I felt like I put everybody in the correct category. Of course, there's people that don't like what the scores they get. It is very hard to judge, like really, because sometimes, yeah, I mean, you're a competitor and a judge. And so this is the cool thing because you're – The biggest challenge, I think, when you're judging national events or like a world event is having a line and keeping a line through four days, five days. So, you know, my line is usually, you know, you'll know when I give somebody – when somebody earns a 91 or 92 or 93, that is – everything else has to be better than, you know, to be in the big category or less than. But that was, you know, keeping a consistent line, that is the biggest challenge when you're judging a lot of dogs. In a club trial, of course, it's a lot easier. There's a lot more forgiveness in club trials. And – but World Championship, there's very little forgiveness for anything. I know.

And the WSV typically is one judge or – and you have possibly somebody to help with the downs and stuff. But it's a – it's a one judge, right? Or – Yeah. WSV is one judge per phase. And, yeah, you do have a long down judge, which helps a lot. How do you feel about the – the one judge versus two versus four? And actually, it's five at the FMBB because you have four judges and a supervisor walking around. I'm not opposed to multiple judges per phase. It's just what happens is – I think, you know, because you've put on national events yourself. It becomes very expensive to fly judges in. Yeah. Very expensive. And a lot of, you know, clubs, organizations just can't afford it. But saying that, of course, we can raise entry fees. We can do – we can do things like that. But if that's something the competitors want, they want multiple judges per phase, I am completely open to it. Yeah. I have no objection to it whatsoever. How is it with the – well, that's also crazy because you're – I don't know when – were you already in the board of directors with the WSV when you judged or – I was, yeah. Okay. That was – yeah, I was. I mean, even if you weren't, but how does the WSV – what kind of instructions come down from the top as far as what do we want to judge and what – So what happens is there's no, like, instructions that come down per se where they – you know. But Hans Graf, who was from Switzerland, he was the head judge of Denmark when I was the obedience judge. And in the beginning, you know, Hans sits down with all the judges and he basically gives us, you know, a talk about – there's no – he doesn't say how to judge or anything like that. The biggest thing that WSV asks for is that no matter who takes the center line, they're all judged the same. Right. So ignore the names, ignore whatever, you know, judge everybody the same. And that was the biggest thing, you know, just, you know, fairness, you know, sportsmanship, all of that. It wasn't – there was no, like, hey, we want you to kill pressure or, you know, we want you to do something. There's nothing like that that comes down. This is something that gets captured at a different level, not in the actual event itself. In the actual event, it's basically just, you know, be consistent. No matter who takes the center line, don't care. You know, be fair. That type of stuff. So – and that question that's coming up, it's – I'm sure everybody that's IGP to some level involved will be interested. But I am interested as well because I'm not sure how it works.

But how does the – like, talk to me a little bit about the FCI rules and the WSV rules and how and when they differ and why and how is the two? They're not different. There's no difference. Not at all? Nope. Because 75% of WSV members are FCI members. Okay. So if FCI decides, like their working commission decides to do something with the rules, change something, WSV just kind of follows suit? Right. For right now, correct. Yeah. Because, like I said, 75% of WSV members are FCI members. It's a similar situation as FMVB. Yeah, yeah, yeah. For some reason, I always thought that WSV is just a bit stronger to where they – I don't know. I mean, like if you look – I mean, Igor Langvarsky, who is on the FCI Utility Doc Commission, is judging – he's going to be judging C in Mempun next year. Yeah. Robert Marschlager judged obedience the year before in the Universal Seeker. It's all, you know, Clemente – with Clemente Grosso. Right, right. It's all the same rules. Oh, wow. That's – I really never knew this. No. There's no difference. No 0.8 meter jump. No, nothing like that. And as far as the, like, our – like, the USCA rules versus AWDF rules and all that, that's also the same? Or is there some – It's very – they're 99% the same. There's some variances in USCA that we have. You know, just like one variance, for example, is like we don't allow certain collars or things to be worn. You know, just to give you an example. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. But in terms of actually judging IGP, it's the same. There's no difference. So, if you have a new USCA judge at an AWMA event, it's judged the same. And how long does it take for USCA typically? What is the process from having met the requirements and getting into apprenticeship being approved? What is the timeframe about? So, it depends, really. But normally, to get into the apprenticeship, you have to basically do – you just apply, do two walkthroughs, and then you can start your apprenticeship. But it depends on your initiative. There's some people that complete it very quickly, so like a little more than a year. And what they do is they get a lot of dogs under their belt by going to judge regional championships because they can't, you know, co-judge. So, if you go judge a couple of regional championships like New England, you might get 35, 40 dogs in, you know, with one trial and go to another regional championship or get another 20 dogs. So, it depends. And then you're basically trying to get FHS under your belt. But it took me about two years to get my choice. Yeah. And then what is the – what is it called? Like a probation or something to where you –

Yeah, the first couple of years, you're still a fully licensed judge. You're just a probationary judge. That means that you have to, you know, like if there's any complaints about you, disciplinary actions, you know, it's not the same process as if you were a permanent judge. In a probationary judge, you know, it's a lot stricter. So, you have to be very mindful of your behavior and just how you present yourself. Which one of the three phases is the easiest for you to judge? For me, I think the easiest – I mean, I love judging. That kind of comes just – you're interested and it comes natural. Obedience. Obedience. Obedience. What about from a trainer perspective, which phase you like to – I know these are unfair questions. I still like – I mean, I like protection, obviously. Who doesn't? But it's still – you know, Schutzen is still in our name. Right. But it's – I just find that all the elements of obedience are so demanding and every dog is so different in how they handle certain situations. I really do enjoy training obedience. And if you're going to screw up a dog even in protection, it's going to be through bad obedience anyway, right? Yeah. I mean, you know, like screwing up a dog in protection, you really have to do something stupid. Because if the dog barks and the dog bites well, you know, it's very difficult to ruin that. But of course you can. But obedience has so many elements. I think it's the hardest phase to get an excellent score in. It's the hardest phase to train, in my opinion. Yeah. It's almost – I always get a little frustrated with how good we've become as trainers in all three phases. But obedience especially. Like from even 10, even five years ago. Like, you know, like taking under consideration so many elements emotionally and all of the precision. And even so, we still have people that want to shut down the sport and want to find things to say that we are these barbaric people that do stupid things with dogs. And it's like so rapidly. It's incredible what we do in obedience compared to any other dog sport, really. Like, in my opinion, is that anywhere in the world, anything that comes – well, not anything, but the majority of the cool stuff, the cool ideas and approaches, they have their roots in IGP somehow. Wow. It's actually sad. You know, I know you mentioned, you know, people just clamping down on our sport. It's actually very sad what's going on in Austria right now, which I know you're very familiar with. Yeah. You read some of the news articles in Austria and it's just brutal, you know, what they say about the sport. Brutal. Yes. And –

I don't feel good right now about the situation there at all. I don't know your opinion, but I don't feel good about it. Yeah. I mean, this could be the beginning of an actually – a total end destruction of the sport. It's a domino for sure. And, you know, Austria has a lot of, you know, IGP going on. I mean, they have a lot of judges. They have a significant presence in the IGP world. And I don't feel good right now where we stand and how we're positioned there at all. And I don't know what the answer is there. I just feel like we're behind. I'm honestly surprised that none of the – like the FCI Utility Commission, for example. Like these guys, I wish – and I don't know, maybe they are doing something behind the doors. But I don't think behind the doors is even useful at this point. Like I think with FCI being the biggest organization, yes, IGP compared to anything else that FCI does, it's just a little fraction that doesn't even bring money. I think about less than 2%. Right. But still, we have – we are under their guidance. And I feel like they just left us there defenseless. And I would wish that they would really step up and make an effort. I don't know how successful they can be, but make a real effort to change public perception or to even do some – I don't know, even like a few times I suggested when the moment that thing started to happen with the first TikTok in Austria. I'm like, I think it's the best way, in my opinion, to involve some lawyers instead of waiting. Because waiting allows for momentum to pick up. And once the train has left, we're chasing – I don't know. What do you think? You're right. So I will – I agree with you to a point. I will tell you is that I have a lot of experience because I come from a background in my past life. I did a lot of work with the Department of Defense, dealt a lot with different politicians and things like that. And I could tell you is that lawyers is not a way to get a politician to do anything. A lawyer is a way to get another company to do something, to get another person to do something, to get another organization to do something. But a politician, the real way to get them to do something is to have a buy-in from them. So what we're doing wrong, and probably we should be doing more of, is we should be – politics is on the local level, of course, in a lot of municipalities, especially in our country. We should be doing is inviting politicians to our events, to our championships, letting them see kids trialing, for God's sake. We promote youth handlers as much as we possibly can all the time.

And just – they can see how people love their dogs, how we take care of their dogs. They eat the best food. They get the best vet care. I mean, these are – a lot of these dogs are – or, again, lack of a better analogy, a formula on cars. So we give them that type of treatment, of course. But I really do think that this is where we all miss it in Germany and Austria, all over the European Union, which is where the dominoes really will probably fall first, is fighting with politicians is appropriate sometimes. But usually, this is what they do for a living, is they fight with each other. The best thing to do is to get their buy-in. And how do you do that? Is you get them involved somehow, in some way. Get them involved. Get them to be the guest of honor. Get them to, you know, throw out the first pitch for – you know, to use it in Germany. This is how you get politicians on your side. Lawyers and politics. Lawyers are good for other companies, for other organizations, and for other individuals. But politicians don't care about lawyers. They have the legislative process, and they will follow the legislative process. A lawyer can't stop it. Yeah, I guess I was – when I'm thinking lawyers, I wasn't thinking to go after the big-name politicians. But the people that are – like, I'm talking right at the moment where the fire is about to start, where there's just a little smoke. There's certain people talking nonsense about – it's like you don't know what you're talking. You're just really – You know, again, it's freedom of speech. People can say it wherever they want. Sure. You know, of course, you can't be libelous or, you know, whatever, use offensive language and things like that. But other than that, there's freedom of speech. You know, anybody can say their opinion. Somebody – you know, you've read the latest Austrian article where a vet presented his opinion. Yes. About – Yeah. Which is – you know, I felt ridiculous, but it's his opinion. Yeah. No, at this point, like, really, I don't – I wish there is something that can happen to get the table turned around. But – It's the court of public opinion in the EU. And I think, you know, I have a lot of friends in Sweden. You know, I'm very good friends with Pierre and, of course, Natalie Finca. And there's a lot of great friends I have in Sweden. And I love going there because they have a whole different world even though they're in Europe. You know, they came to this cataclysmic moment with IGP well over a decade ago. And they almost lost that capability. But the military and the police stood up.

And then after that, what happened was they actively actually put on – they combine demonstrations of dogs, whether it's military dogs, IGP dogs, or whatever, dual-purpose dogs that do both, combine it with horse shows where there's a lot of people going to them, you know, or combine it with fairs. And they'll, you know, they'll like – they'll put a ring up. Well, they'll do protection for people. And then, you know, a person can go in there with the dog and see how the dog behaves. You know, the dog is obviously neutral to everybody except the helper. And then the dog is gripping and people applaud. And, you know, there's somebody narrating the whole thing. And, you know, they do these demonstrations at fairs, at horse shows, and things like that. And this is how you – you know, this is how public opinion over time, you know, kind of – you know, because right now if you just said, oh, these people are stressing dogs out, you know, dogs are biting other people. And, you know, this is all they have to go by. And they've never seen – they've never seen – they've only read the words and the descriptions. You know, that's all they'll have to go by. But that's where I give Sweden a lot of credit is that they – I think they're also fortunate to have – and I'm sure Pierre is not the only one – but have people that are very instrumental in both worlds, the military and the sport. And that really makes sense and difference. And Germany does too, and so does Austria. We know people that are both in the military, you know, or police world and also do IGP dog sport or other dog sports activities. And I can't tell you when the last time I saw a demonstration of protection work, you know, of stable dogs at a fair, a city fair or something like that, you know, big crowds. You know, we shouldn't hide it. We should promote it and educate people on it because if we leave it up to the newspapers and the politicians, we're going to just lose. That's my 10 cents. No, yeah, no, I appreciate it. And I'm sure – I mean, I'm sure people are curious to hear your opinion on this. I mean, everything from, you know, here, you know, Mr. whatever congressperson, you know, the German equivalent of that minister, you know, throw out the first pitch, you know, type of thing. Yeah, this is like, you know, how since we both started in the country here, like early 90s and stuff. And I mean, USC, I used to have the coolest thing with what was it called with the police, the double. Oh, yeah, it was. I don't know. It was police. Yes, including even police teams coming from Germany. It was – So I forgot the acronym.

WPO, I want to say, but I have no idea. It's something – GPO, I think. I know somebody like Kevin Scheldt, now it's going to kill us. Mike Deal was very big in it. He was a champion. Yes. He competed a lot. Oh, DPO. DPO. DPO. And what happened was TPO was very popular in Germany. And when it died in Germany, it pretty much died everywhere. Yeah. So police dog trials, when they died in Germany, they just died out everywhere. But we do have the USPCA. Mm-hmm. And they do have their certifications and they do have their events. It's a little different. For sure. I mean, like, we try – For sure. I try to always, you know, share articles, you know, from USCA Magazine. We're lucky to have that our editor is also an editor of the police magazines. Oh, wow. Okay. So we always try to share articles and things like that. But what happens is when you're in law enforcement or in your military, it's very easy to explain why you use working dogs. It's a lot more difficult as a hobbyist to explain that. So what we have to do is really just show people how much fun it is, how, you know, how the dogs enjoy it. You know, we have to – it has to be done at a very basic level, like any promotion. You know, the four P's of marketing, promotions has to be one of them. And, you know, when we promote, you know, you and I are both part of PNN Sport, and when we promote to our people, that's all we're promoting it to is to our people. Correct. I really do feel – yeah, I mean, like, you know, we're in an echo chamber. Yeah, we actually have talked about, you and me, about this, that we just kind of pump each other up, but that's not the point. No, it's not the point. And the only way, really, you know, if we want to promote it in the public is to do it in the public and not hide. And I know some people in the EU, they want to hide by work. They want to – and I just feel like it's the wrong way to go. But that's, you know, my opinion. There are a bunch of differences, though. I think, like, I'm quite optimistic for the United States. Our country is – Just because of the laws that we have, like, the different understanding of, you know, what protection really means, like self-protection. And you know what? This is where, you know, to get back, I guess, in a very long and very big circle, to get back to your FCI question that you asked early on, is because of the size of the FCI and their ability. This is what I've got to give AKC a lot of credit for. AKC is on top of all legislative things in every state. Yeah, true. They are all over it. I don't – I mean, if you're – I don't know if you subscribe to some of the newsletters.

Yes, yes. But if there's anything legislative going on in my area, I get an email right away, contact this, here's the link, blah, blah, blah. You know, they want to – you know, this is where I've got to give them credit. But, I mean, they're not, you know, watching out for dog sport or anything like that, but they do watch out for a lot of things. And I struggle to find an equivalent version of that in the European kennel clubs. You know, really, where is the – you know, where is the political outreach of the Austria kennel club, the OKB, or the German kennel club, the VDH? Right. You know, it's all reactive. It's all, you know. Yeah. I mean, think about it, Ivan, right? Dog trials, the type of work we do is – it's 100 years old. True. It's over 100 years old. And only now, what, we're starting to educate the public in the EU? You know, I mean, I give Patricia and Florian and those guys a lot of credit, and Peter, for, you know, organically starting up this canine support organization. But, you know, where have the kennel clubs been for 100 years? Right. That's the frustration. That's really where the frustrating part is. But I do feel very – I don't know if pessimistic is the right word, but I just feel very negative right now about what's going on in Austria and, you know, how it could just be a domino that makes other dominoes fall in the European Union. In the European Union, but at least for a while. It's almost like a wake-up call for us, and it comes a little bit delayed, just like with all the bans on electric collars and prone collars. I think it gave us enough time here to say, hold on, this is – we need to talk about – we're not going to just accept what somebody or science or whatever says. We're not going to just follow whatever you guys say. And so we put quite a bit more resistance in the States than in Europe. And I think partially it's because we already see what happens there. So if the sport gets shut down, I believe that we're going to freak out again and we're going to come up with something, hopefully. I don't – you know, I don't think in countries like Sweden it's going to get shut down or anything like that. But I – because they're very well positioned and the public is very well educated on what's going on with these dogs. But of course everybody is just one or two bad videos away from – Correct. Something cataclysmic happening, you know. But it's just – in USA, I think we're a lot more decentralized. You know, municipalities, every municipality, every state has their own kind of regulations on various things.

So we don't have the federal government, you know, regulating rodeo. How is it about the rules of FCI when the – like if the rules continue to – well, I honestly don't see what more can change. But if they keep changing, would there be a time where the Americans here, we can say, okay, we're just going to do our thing from that point on. Like how do you feel about this? Because you're in both worlds. I mean, you're in the board of – I think that, you know, at some point – I mean, like we're – I think you and I are both aware, you know, we face that point when people try to remove the stick pressure, you know, stick from the routine. And I, you know, I understand the rationale, you know. You know, Pierre and I talk about this all the time. You know, you just – you know, people say you can't explain to a person, you know, a mom and a kid, why we're hitting a dog with a stick. Okay, I get it. But then you also can. You can also demonstrate it like, you know, people do and, you know, but, you know, that the stick doesn't really hurt the dog and it's a pressure, you know, blah, blah, blah. But I've – to get back to your question is I already get a lot of pushback inside the organization from people that have been in the sport for a long time that on this very topic of basically the rules becoming easier, they're no longer significant, we're not testing the dogs anymore, you know. I don't think we're there yet. I understand what the FCI is doing with the IGP-1 routine. They're trying to make it easier for more people to pass, they have more people involved. I mean, I don't necessarily agree with the changes, but some of them anyway – I mean, some of them are, I think, make it more difficult. Like IGP-1 routine, I think, and protection is more difficult. So, obedience is easier. It's almost sidetracking from the goal you're chasing, like training things that are just irrelevant eventually, right? I mean, there's some things that are relevant that are easier, and, you know, I feel like especially because of all the jumping problems we have, you know, with our dogs, you know, making the jump shorter is certainly not helpful if we're going to say, okay, well, this is part of our breed selection. So, actually, at USCA, in our breed surveys, we've implemented a jump test. It's voluntary right now. Yeah, so Henleck can refuse a jump test. Cheers to God. We do have a jump test. Like I – wow. Yeah, yeah, no, we do have it in our breed surveys, and we also have stick pressure in our breed surveys. But – and a person can refuse a jump test, and all the judge does is not a pass or fail,

but the judge makes a notation about dog's jumping ability, just like any other thing. You know, no pass or fail. And it's information for breeders. Beautiful. This dog is hesitant jumping. This dog has powerful jumping. This dog is effortless, whatever. And it's information for breeders. How long it's been? Wow. We actually – we voted it in this year, earlier this year. Okay. But our executive board is very passionate about, you know, making sure we have a healthy breed. And I'm fortunate to be working with these crazy volunteers that put themselves out there as lightning rods for everybody. But, yeah, the executive board actually, I think unanimously, we approved the recommendation of the breed advisory committee. That's so exciting. That's so exciting. I mean, I – Oh, yeah, we do deviate. We do deviate, Ivan, sometimes. But you know what? If you want to have internationally recognized titles, which is the battle we – you know, how do you maintain that? You know, and offer that to your members. Because people want internationally recognized titles. And if, you know, if you and I start deviating too much from the IGP program that's a universal FCI program or whatever, then it's a question, you know, are we still doing IGP? And people accept the title. I wish FCI will – that the utility commission will give us just a little more freedom. Because they understand that we can. Like, like, in my dream world, I wish that I say, you know what, do your IGP program as it was. But you have to pass IGP by the FCI rules. You have to have that title in order to come and compete at the world championships. So, for example, like, we can have a national championship by different – well, not that different, but still like some older version of IGP rules. But as long as the docs have passed the current program, have a title, then they go and compete. And I – The biggest thing is always the progression. Where do you recognize or start the progression? You know, so if you have, let's say, some kind of a hybrid IGP tough version as IGP-1, can you go for a FCI version of an IGP-2? You know, this is where – you know, or do you have to repeat it? You know. So, this is where a lot of the logistics stuff. And in the German Shepherd world and the WUSV world, this is even more complicated because IGP is a breeding title. Right. That is accepted throughout the world of the German Shepherds, throughout WUSV. So, of course, inside the United States, we can have our own thing, the Cine Law Breeding, and we have the AKC where you can basically breed untitled dogs if you want. You know, no microchip, no hips, no elbows.

I can breed any other. I can breed that drink. I can register it tomorrow. You can breed dead dogs in the United States, yes. That's crazy. But none of that is allowed in WUSV, and you need, you know, working titles to breed dogs. And then we kind of harmonized on standardizing, you know, only FCI titles within the WUSV, so everybody knows what an IGP-1 is, IGP-2 is, IGP-3 is. And like I said, 75% of our members are IGP members. Right. Yeah, but don't you think it's possible to have, you get your IGP-1, 2, 3, but you also compete in a different championship? At least you're allowed to compete in a different championship, and you're not going to get banned from competing at an FCI event because you have competed at a different... I think, no, I don't think that's the case. I don't think the FCI will ban anybody. I mean, like right now, you know, you can have Mondio, a dog that does Mondio, and compete in IGP also. It's not like a forbidden thing. Mondio is completely different from IGP, and, you know, the FCI doesn't, you know, stop a dog that does Mondio from doing IGP. I mean, you know, this was kind of the best we could do at the time, but when the stick hits went away in the IGP routine of the FCI, you know, we implemented our own USP titles, which was basically an IGP routine with stick hits. And a member of USCA, or any person actually, can do USP-1, USP-2, USP-3, and go to USCA nationals with the USP-3 title and breed inside USCA. But that title is not internationally reckoned. Yeah. But if that's what's important to you, and all you care about is breeding in the United States and inside USCA, because, you know, we have a stud book, we issue pedigrees, you know, we check all that stuff. Okay. I mean, I actually still like that, because in a lot of ways, this is thinking ahead. It's just, it's what we could do at the time. And I know there are some people that are very, you know, purists, that's just like, you know, screw everything, screw WSV, screw the SV, screw the FCI. And I'm like, that's suicidal. Yeah, that's not, that's really, and that's not, like, that never crosses my mind, actually. No, I mean, like, for us, you know, the best, the best thing for us is a strong FCI utility dog commission. And, you know, for us, from my perspective, a strong SV is, you know, what's best for WSV also. You know, I don't want to see the SV, you know, under some kind of government attack for IGP or anything like that. I want to see, because, Ivan, what, you know, I'll tell you, the reality of it is that my numbers might be a little off, but they're not far off.

70% of all dog sport, IGP specifically, is in Germany. Really? Still? Pretty close, yeah. How are we doing in this? I mean, we have something like, you know, UICA is like 200 trials. You guys, how many members are you? I mean, you're here. We, so we have a rolling membership, and at any one time, it can go down to like 3,700 or go up to 4,500 or upwards, because every day somebody's renewing or somebody's not renewing. Yeah, that's me. Like, I never know when I'm a member. You know how I find if I'm a member when I try to log in on the website, and I'm like, oops. Yeah, that's it. And then people renew and things like that. Now we're kind of getting a little better as, you know, from a business perspective. We're actually, you know, with our database of membership, we have, you know, automatic emails going in. Just now we're starting to go out with reminders to renew, and just to get better about it as an organization. But yeah, at any one time, it goes up and down, and it can vary by hundreds, you know, in one month. But you're still by far the biggest club in the States. I don't know how big some of the other organizations are, but I think we are still, you know, the biggest. I would guess the only one would be DVG, but I highly doubt it, because, I mean, AWMA, we're like, we're not, never have passed 450 members, believe it or not. Oh, yeah, I don't really know the numbers. I would get, I can only estimate if I, like, proportion it out in accordance with how many trials an organization holds. So, you know, DVG holds 30 or 40 trials. I can assume that there's something like one-fourth or one-fifth of what we are. What is really called? I can only scale it. I don't have numbers. It doesn't really matter. We have a lot of numbers that are members of both. It's fine. Right. I think that's also fine, for sure. Yeah, people should do what, you know, makes them happy. We have a lot of AWMA members that are also USDA members. I mean, look at me. I haven't had a German Shepherd in, I don't know how long it's been now, but I, and this is probably why I kind of, I become a member, renew my membership, but then I forget it and then, oh, shit, I need to renew it again. But I'm on and off, but I, you know, I think it's important to, well, I don't see if it's important or not, but I am a member. I think it's part of pretty much everything. It's, I mean, I'm not, I'm not a member of really, I joined, I think I'm a member of the Canadian organization and I'm not really a member of any other organization. But really, I only, I only compete in USCA and WSB.

I can tell you that in my club, we have three or four Mellonaut people. You know, my youth Mellonaut handler, you know, I think, you know, Shashti, she's also in my club. And yeah, I mean, everybody's welcome. You know, we, you know, I love all working dogs. It's the only way, really. Good Rallwellers, good Dobermans, you know, giant schnauzers. And, you know, we have, we have everything, you know, which is nice. It's actually nice to see, which is why at WDC, I love, I love that trial, even though we don't have a qualification requirements. Sometimes you might get like a, a dog that shouldn't be there, you know, but, you know, I still love to see all the breeds come out and, you know, and compete together. Yeah, I mean, USCA, man, it's, it's just this tradition of the ability to put bunch of big trials in the same year, like big entry trials, you know, it's always impressive. It's always impressive. We are, we're fortunate that we have, you know, great volunteers who step up, you know, to host the event. And we really, really support our clubs with whatever resources they need. You know, we really, we really try to support the club that's co-hosting the event with financial support, which is the most important thing is, you know, we, we pay for the helpers, we pay for the track layers, we pay for pretty much all expenses. The club doesn't have to pay for anything. I mean, of course, there's some out of pocket stuff, but we'll reimburse them. But yeah, USCA pays for everything. Yeah, that's, that's where. Which makes it, which makes it somewhat easier for a club. It's still a lot of work, but I'll tell you, like, we have some clubs that are not big clubs at all, like Mike Sweeney's club, OG Westphal, and put on the Nationals this year. You know, they, they don't have a lot of members. We have Jim Allaway's club who's put on W, you know, Mid-Ohio, who's put on WDC several times. They're a very small club also. It's just very nice. You know, they do a very nice job with just overall management. And then USCA, of course, comes in and helps with the expenses, cover the expenses. But how, how is it the membership? Do you know, like, as far as age brackets? Like, are there any young people coming in? We do, we do have a lot, quite a bit of young people, but we don't really, like, keep the demographic. It's really not appropriate to ask people their age when they join. But I can tell you, when I'm judging out there, for the most part, I notice there's a, there's a lot more youth handlers. And then there's people also that are just, like, working professionals that have this as an outlet.

And then, of course, also, you know, so people in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. Yeah. That was one of the cool ideas the K9 Sports came up with. You know, whenever somebody gives a seminar or a workshop to allow one or two young people to join for free without having to pay. I think that it seems like this is, like, the young people like it. And, of course, they get their pictures, like, it kind of gets you at the door, you know? I still, you know, I still go back, and maybe you and I will disagree on this, but maybe not. I still go back to is if we want to grow, we have to be more, we have to be more in a public square. And get young people to say, this is some cool stuff. How do I get into this, mom? You know, instead of doing some other activity that they do, you know? And if they get to see it, it's hard not to like when you see. Exactly. You know, you see this beautiful healing, let's say, or some emotions that people are showing the exercises, the retrieves, even the control and bite work, and just how neutral the dog is around everybody. And then when it's time to work against the helper, the dog does that, and people are like, wow, this is so cool. But, you know, like you said, canine in sports is a great thing by promoting youth participation. But I feel like it's youth we already have in the sport. Right. You know what I mean? Yeah. And we need to get more out into the public square, is how I feel, and do that. So I'm actually kind of trying to get it to gel in my own brain and try to, in the coming year, from a USCA perspective, try to get more of that going at a regional level at first, and then maybe even at some local club level, and then also getting more involved with the municipality politicians, with the state politicians. You know, the first pitch thing that I was telling you about, getting them to throw out the first pitch and be the guest of honor type of thing. Yeah. I mean, there is options for sure. One difficulty is that our sport, like, it's not so easy to convince to, you know, a school or some stadium, some sports arena to host a championship or host even a smaller event. We always do it a little bit outside, and if we possibly, if we do it in a more populated area, then the kids will come because it's right there instead of having to drive an hour to some village that nobody ever goes there for no reason. Exactly. You know, in the middle of Ohio or in the middle of Indiana or in the middle of, you know, whatever. Yeah, of course. Yeah, that for sure is. But I'm not just talking about, you know, big trials. I'm talking about just the promotional activities going on.

I'm talking about, hey, there is a fair going on, let's say. I don't know if you have them in Florida, but we have fairs all the time. And I'm like, hey, we're going to, you know, get this sprint going, you know, do some obedience with three dogs or four dogs, then do some protection. You know, people can come in to this little arena, you know, stand next to the dog as the dog is doing protection and see what it's about. And see how neutral the dog is and how well behaved the dogs are and just, you know, promote it in a public square like that versus. It's just that we are kind of strange group of people. All together. We like if we were that social and that kind of, you know, like there is a reason why we are training dogs out on the fields. Yeah. For some in some way. Right. And and I'm sure there is certain individuals that would love to go in and make this kind of promo and interact. But a lot of the dog people, they're in dogs for for the reason that they're not so social. Like, I think I don't know. Well, we have all kinds, you know, so, yeah, of course, like if you want, you know, not everybody can be a salesperson, that everybody can be a marketing person, you know, so you get the people that can. And maybe with the streaming and advertisement now with social media, you know, like if we make how how dog competitions become more streamed life. If it does get advertised correctly and people start to watch those instead of swiping on TikTok or or maybe I don't know, maybe. Actually, my son, my son is the one that my son, he goes to Boston College. He's a senior at Boston College. He actually said to me that we're doing a very piss poor job promoting to young people, whether it's through Instagram, TikTok or whatever. So he said he said, you know, because he has obviously he's got a lot of shirts and gear. He wears a lot of sweatshirts that I, you know, he took from me, our T-shirts. And he says wherever whenever he wears it in college or anywhere, everybody thinks they're the coolest thing ever. And they're like, what is this shirts and stuff? You know, so he shows him video. He's written papers about it in school. Like, you know, actually people think it's just so cool. And even, you know, you know, this is, you know, he just got him involved in it through wearing clothes. Right. Does your CA have like an Instagram, TikTok account or no? So we have a Facebook account. We do have an Instagram account, which is dormant. We don't have a TikTok account. No, we don't. But should we? Yeah. Maybe we should, right? Yeah, yeah, we definitely should. And this coming year, I think it'll be great.

The biggest thing I find is that you need somebody fairly well-versed in social media, Instagram and TikTok to manage this effort. And it takes time to put quality videos on there, to put quality things on there. And, you know, we're volunteers. And, you know, look at me. I'm 57 years old. I'm not a big TikToker or Instagrammer. You know, I just peck my way through it. But, yeah, if we had, you know, I have to find some volunteers that will be, you know, we can trust. And we, they will be very active that they will take this very seriously almost as a full-time job is to put content up there and to get people to engage. But we don't do a good job with that. Nobody does. No dog sport organization. You know, I don't, I don't know if you can find, you know, any good breed club that does it either. There is like, in the last couple of years or so, there is individual people for their individual marketing that are in the sport that are doing really well with it. Which is, you know, as a byproduct, it's still a promotion and advertisement to what we do. But, yeah, if the clubs are doing that, that could be changing. I mean, we really, we're not doing a good job. Nobody's doing a good job promoting the sport worldwide in a way like that, really. I, you know, it dawned on me, you know, probably late just because I'm old, or one of the youth members in my club, she's a, she's a dog trainer, you know, like a, also, you know, trains pet dogs and things like that. And she loves dog tricks. She teaches dogs, dog tricks. She has a German Shepherd that she works with and she has a Mally, two Mally's that she works with in IGP. One puppy she's starting. But she told me that she has like 1.2 followers on, 1.2 million followers on TikTok or something like that. I'm like, that's insane. Yeah. From posting like dog tricks and things like that. Yeah, yeah. No, this is, I mean, this is the world. And that's all organic followers. It's not like a kennel club or somebody else, you know, paying for, you know, Facebook friends and followers. This is organic. You know, it's like a million followers on TikTok from dog tricks. Yeah, wow. We don't do a good job promotion having. And we don't, and I think, I think the, the attitude, what I could see in, in Europe, and I think you kind of get the same sense is that we're hiding IGP and not really exhibiting it. I think people are afraid to show dog teeth, dogs doing lung, lung bites, dogs doing stuff like that. Well, in Europe, it's, I mean, we know it's there in a, such a difficult place. It's a. Very. Like you, you always have to look around.

Even if you, if you're not doing anything wrong, it's in, now it's ingrated in everybody that trains dog that somebody is watching you and somebody is going to challenge what you're doing. And, and. Yep. This is, this is, this is a huge problem. Um, and, and for them, I, I don't see how they can come out of that. It's difficult. It's a difficult, it's a difficult situation. But I, I think that, um, hiding, um, hiding the sport, I guess, I'm not talking about training. I'm talking about putting on exhibitions in a town square. Right, right, right. You know, like, you know, I'm talking about things like Knut Fuchs does, you know, with his, uh, you know, he does a good job, I think, promoting, um. Yes. You know, uh, training and, and things like that. I mean, they're just, you know, these, um, these very nice images of dog sport. Yes. Speaking of which, I'm, he's, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm going to have him in probably the next podcast because, uh, because of, well, there is a lot of reasons why, but one of the reasons is this, you know. Yeah, no, he's doing, I, I feel like he's doing a really, really good job doing that, you know, like just promoting this, uh, to the public. And, um, we don't, I, you know, he's not hiding. And, and we, you know, like, I, I feel like at a higher level, at a kennel club level, you know, like we're hiding, you know, and I, and I think that because we're hiding, people automatically get the sense that, you know, something is wrong. And then I also feel like when you're hiding and you're not proactive about promoting and being proud of what you do, you're starting to die. And it's a slow death. And right. I mean, you either, you either are happy and proud of what you do or, or you're not. Right. I mean, like I, I'm, I'm very happy with dog sport and, you know, and, and I, I love to show off my dog and I love to see dogs working and, you know, I'd love to see, you know, Sanuk doing long bites or, you know, another dog doing long bites. You know, for so many of us, it's really the most, uh, meaningful thing in life, which is kind of crazy to even say, but it like you, we really, it's the most, it's the place where you feel at home and you get the satisfaction and the joy of that, that thing of working with dogs. It's, there is just no other experience that I can, and I have many hobbies, but nothing come close, nothing. I mean, when you're, when you're out there, when you're stepping on the field with your dog, it's like jumping out of an airplane with a parachute, not knowing whether it's going to open. I like it.

You know, because, you guys, obviously it's a dog that, you know, you train, but you're still, you know, you know, it's, it's still a dog. So, you know, of course, hopefully if you, you've done a good job, so you guys are, you're in harmony on the field, but still, you don't know. When you say souk to your dog at the tracking flag, you don't know what's going to happen. You kind of hope. And you maybe don't know if training was going to happen, but, you know, you know, it's happened to me. It's happened to a lot of people, or, you know, if you say foos to a dog. Yes, of course. But that's why we do it, though. I mean, I mean, if it was. Oh, it's, it's, I did say it's also adrenaline for us. Yeah. I know. There is the gamble. Here we go. Let's see if today. For you, much more of a gamble than for me, because you're a much more well-known professional. So, I give you a lot of credit for stepping on the field and showing off your training, because, you know, this is what you do. No, seriously, I'm not blowing smoke up your ass. This is, this is a big thing for me, you know, professionals that don't back it up. So, people like you, people like Hanute, people like Marco. Right. You know. Yeah, there is a little bit more at stake, for sure. But. Yeah. But what can you do? Like, I, there is times that I'm like, I should not be doing this. Like, why am I doing this? And then I have one dog. And then I have another dog. And now I can talk to you with so much excitement and passion about my new dog, that it's just about a little over two years old. And, and talking about tracking. And he's just this natural vacuum machine that is just, you know, like some dogs, they track. And they're on the track. And he's like in the track. Like, it's nothing to do with training. It's like possessed with, it's like this is. He loves it. He loves doing it. He loves it. And I know there's going to be problems in tracking. It's inevitable in some trial that we're not going to do well. But I know that if we don't do well, I know that he's good tracker somehow. It's, it's okay. You know, to where I've had dogs that they're, tracking always been a tough one. And I have had like, man, I mean, I probably, I don't know, like I got to go to working dog and check. But I, with my first one, I think I had like two or 300 points. And like, it's, you know, but what I wanted to say is what you mentioned. It's always that uneasy feeling before the track and, and all the way until the very last moment. You just like underwater, like a. And, but that's why we do it. I think that's the, the, if it was just like, oh, let's just glide.

And it's a different kind of fun. There is the gamble and the gamble in IGP is, it's a lot. I mean, like it's a torture in some ways. What we do. I enjoy it a lot. I mean, my young dog now, he's just, he's over two years old. He's two and three quarters or something like that. He's similar to your dog. Loves tracking. Very smart on the track. And it's the first dog I've ever had in my life. When I know, when I say, you know, track at the flag that he will never quit and always go to the end. Unless the dog is physically, there's something wrong with him. I know he might miss an article or something like that, but I know that he will never quit the track. Yeah. And that's a, that's an awesome feeling. It's definitely an amazing feeling. And it allows you to like appreciate just instead of trying to teach, you can step aside and just enjoy the natural ability. It's just, it's a cool thing. Oh yeah. I do enjoy it. I wish we lived in a better climate for it, but I don't know how you guys do it with fire ants, but we don't have that. Yeah. We do have snow. What do you, I mean, you primarily have grass tracking or do you have some dirt? Where we, not where we live, it's all grass. It's all grass, right? We don't have, we, we rarely, very rarely have dirt, which, and if we do have dirt, it's cornfield. So what do you do to prepare for dirt stuff? You go places. You usually travel. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We have to travel. Like we don't have sod, you know, so when tracking is on sod, let's say at a national event, tracking is on sod. I'll have to drive somewhere to Albany, New York area, or, you know, three hours away to track on sod. USC, does, do you guys still have the, like, I remember at one point there were, there was something like some education and some, something was done around tracking and track layers and stuff. Do you still have that? Yeah, no, it's actually, it actually grew quite a bit. We have a formal track layer program, like a helper program. Oh, wow. It's run by Mark Chaffin and a few other guys like Tim Reber. And it's a, you can actually download the track layer program, you know, as a PDF file, you know, track layers get books like helpers get books. They get classification. We don't even know what to track layer seminars. No, no, we do. Yeah, we have a track layer program. Yeah. It became official a couple of years ago. Do you know of other clubs, like anywhere in the world that have it? I'm not aware of it. No, right. Yeah. And it's, really, it is an important thing. Because. I mean, we think so, which is why we have a program. Right. We have people that are passionate about it.

And, you know, we, we have a lot of people with track layer score books, you know, that are, you know, proud to lay tracks at trials and have them recorded in their track layer books. And we classify track layers also, you know, we have a really good national track layers that, that, that come off for national events and lay tracks and, you know, it's an art. Yes. Actually. Yes. And at least. So make sure every track is consistent, you know. Correct. At least one piece of the puzzle of tracking in a trial, he has a little bit of consistency, which is, the competitors appreciate that. They do. And, I mean, you know, it's still, because you compete a lot yourself, you know, some of it is the luck of the draw, you know. It always is. It's crazy windy rain and another person might get in a beautiful, cool day with no wind at all. Let's go back to your judging. When you, like, you kind of judge now quite a bit. How often do you see, like, the, the old, like, I don't even know how to say it, but like, like the old school type of training that shows up to where the, the dogs are clearly, they would rather not be doing this. Let's put it that way. I, I, I see it still quite a bit, but not necessarily because of old school training. It's because of the quality of the dog. Some dogs just don't have it in them to, to be this flashy, energetic or dominant animal. I mean, it's a few dogs that we're talking about that have, you know, qualities that like that. But for the most part, the training has come along very well. You know, everybody with access, whether it's to social media, YouTube, blah, blah, blah, and just information from people like yourself and, and, and, and, you know, they, they come along. So, but what I find is when I see dogs like that, and it still pretty much happens at every trial. It's not necessarily because of the training. There is an occasional one because of the training. And we've had, you know, some at, you know, one at a national championship, sometimes two, you know, you know, it's, you know, but, but the most part, 99% when I see a dog like that, it's because of what, you know, the dog just doesn't have it. Or the handler maybe just doesn't have it, you know, physically trying to have the kid do boxing when they would rather do. Yeah. Or, or, you know, we have, I mean, like, let's say, you know, let's say, let's say it's a, you know, somebody that just has a dog they can't play tug of war with because of physical limitations or something like that.

So, you know, you get in what you put, you know, you get out what you put into the dog, you know, you know, if the dog thinks it's a lot of fun, I mean, they're still self-serving animals. They do what makes them feel good. And they don't like to do what doesn't make them feel good. If they think there's a lot of play and happiness and things like that, that drive up drive level, of course, goes up. But a lot of people just physically are not able to do it. And then you see that on the field and then, of course, you see dogs on the field that don't have the flashy obedience. And that's also where to have the tactfulness, like, you know, when you're good judge how to handle this. And because this can make the person go and do something else or get two more dogs and get even more into it and never even give up on the dog that they have at the moment. So, like, the judge is probably, like, critical point at that time. I learned, you know, I had some good people that, you know, mentor me along the way. And I can tell you is that I always try to say positive things because the sport is hard enough. And judges can kill the sport if, like, critiques by their nature are negative. It's a negative word. A critique by its nature is a negative word. And that's what the judge gives at the end of a routine. So, let's say you have a dog that is not, was trained, you know, the best that can and knew how. The dog is just not super drivey. But dog, you can see they definitely have a good relationship. And I'll say that. I'm like, the dog loves you. You can tell that on the field. You know, I'll say, like, I'd love to see more energy. You know, I'd love to see more correct, you know, behavior, you know. But still, the dog loves you. The relationship is there. Yeah. The dog did everything you asked. You know, you know, you have to realize that these people aren't training for the world level, the national level, everything like that. They're just going out there to have fun with friends at a club. Correct. You know, it's an activity they're doing away from their family, maybe, you know, after work or something like that. And as much as it looks like the dog doesn't really get the kick out of it, they still enjoy the weekly trainings and the interactions and the whole thing. It's still fun for the dog to get the ball, of course, or, you know, get the tug toy, of course. And it's the benefit to just the mental state of the dog, to the physical state of the dog. You know, this is the kind of thing you need to be describing to the public because this dog could be at home lying on the couch doing nothing. Yes.

Right? Going twice a day on a flexi around the block. That's it. Yeah. And instead, this dog is being mentally, physically stimulated, you know, doing, you know, things that are fun. And, you know, yeah. I mean, judging is the, you know, can make or break a lot of the sporting activities too. It can discourage people from the sport. It can encourage people into the sport. I am not perfect, far from perfect, obviously, as a judge. I have people that don't like the scores I give them. You know, they think they should get more. No, I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it. It almost never happens at a club level. Almost never. At a club level, everybody is very respectful, very, what I encounter, you know, just very welcoming. And, you know, it's like somebody is bringing you into their, you know, into their home, into their community. And, you know, whereas the championship level is different. You know, people are coming from everywhere into somebody else. But, yeah, I, you know, I do enjoy club judging. There are some tough judging moments, of course, when you can have 12 BHS and, you know, two IGP dogs or something like that. But then, you know, it's a weekend judging all BHS, which is not like necessarily. I am ashamed to say this, but we just had a trial with, I don't know, 10 BHS. No, no, it's fine. It's fine. I'm just saying, as a judge, I mean, of course, you like to see people at the entry level, but also you like to see retrieves and you like to see bite work and you like to see tracking. Yes. You know, so, yes. And with the BH, you know, you know, you get to see, you know, two, you know, two rounds of obedience on and off leash and an impartiality test. And speaking of Austria and talking about the BHS right now, even, even that little piece somehow got left out, you know, in the, oh, we are teaching dogs to bite men. And this is such a bad idea. It's like, no, they like the very first thing we do is making sure that these dogs will not have a loose screw and do stupid things. This is the very first thing we do. And somehow we fail to have that in the arguments. It's not, it's just a, it's an overall, I mean, it's an overall failure. You know, it's not, you know, it's, you know, we can go, you know, we can start, you know, of course, FCI is the global organization. But this is really country, local matters. This, you know, this should be handled by kennel clubs because they are, they should be the most familiar with their politicians, with their, with their laws and things like that. And there should be, they should be the drivers.

I mean, how many kennel clubs in the EU, you know, that have a political outreach? So what do you think we do? Like, what do you think, like, we do in our country? Like, the German Shepherd Club, the Malino Club, the AWDF, like, like the, the places that at least we can talk to each other and get organized. Like, like, how can we come up with some plan, like how to move forward to, to protect what we do, I guess? I think, I mean, I think the first thing to do would be to get some dynamic individuals into a working group and not a big working group, but a small one that can actually function. And start putting ideas on the table. And I'm talking about people with, from various backgrounds, business experience, you know, some experience in dealing with politicians or whatever, you know, obviously training experience. And, and, and we need to do that. And we need to be proactive about it. I mean, like, I, it doesn't, you know, I have no pride in ownership on this one or anything like that. If, if this is something that the AWDF wants to do to get, but if it starts to be like a, just a group of people talking about things, it's not meaningful. It needs to actually be like a group with a charter of doing specific things and being very focused and very dedicated to that. Right. Coming up with the ideas for that instead of some kind of a nebulous thing that, you know, accomplishes nothing. Yeah. But I'm, I'm all for it. I mean, but, but I, I think the first thing that we should, we need to do is organize. You know, have, have some, have some really different opinions. Right. Get, get, get some, a group of people. Right. And I'm, and I'm, and I, you know, like we, if you take a sample of our population, I'll bet you, if we put an outreach out there in my organization, AWMA, DVG, and other organizations in USA, you're going to get people with all kinds of backgrounds. A hundred percent. You probably get even some politicians. I know, I know one of our apprentice judges right now, Ray Jeffers. Yes. I know. He's a politician in North Carolina. I know. I, I, I kind of followed him. I'm like, oh, look at him. Really. He really is going to do this. Yeah. Yeah. He's doing it. Yep. He's doing it. Yes. But I think also the, what you think of inviting like, like local police to do demonstrations before the closing ceremony or something. You know how those were cool things back then, you know, coming from the helicopters and stealing the woman with the stroller. I think that's also, I think that's also great. Everything we can do to do is awesome.

I think the one thing right now, Ivan, that, you know, I think we fight, you fight, um, is, uh, the attendance at events because of live streaming is way down, way down. Hmm. So even when you go to a world championship, unless you're in some very, um, special place, um, city center or something like that, or a big town center, uh, you're not, you know, you know, live streaming, you know, people just watch it on their phones or on their computers at home. Wow. Didn't think of that, but that's true. It's really, uh, um, I've noticed the attendance go down quite a bit. Because of, uh, you know, live streaming. Right. It is the modern age. People, people do want it. And if you don't have live streaming, they, uh, scream for it. Right, right, right. No, no. I mean, it's so convenient. Yeah. But I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm for anything that promotes what we do, our breeds, the working breeds. Yeah. It would be great to, to have that. And, you know, we have, we do have relationships with, obviously there's a, quite a bit of, quite a few police people that do the. I mean, I've been in the sports board in my organization. I know that for a fact, um, um, not, I mean, like, uh, my deal is retired now, but he used to be in charge of all canine, uh, um, in Indianapolis. Yeah. It's in the city of Indianapolis. Um, but you know, yeah, of course we can get, we can get police to do the demonstration. My biggest issue is just the tenants and, you know. Right. Who do you do the little demonstration too? No, that's, that's, yeah. Because, uh, wow. I haven't thought of this and this is so true. I mean, I know that we don't, we don't get like people coming in, but I always thought of different reasons, but I can see totally how streaming, uh, affects that as well. It does. It really does. And, and you cannot, there is no way you can stop streaming. No, no. It's the modern age. No. I think my biggest focus and just new year resolution for myself is, uh, what we talked about is the promotion and, and, and doing the right things to build the longevity in the States as much as I can. And being in the WSV board of directors is at least having some positive or a different voice for ideas in Europe. What is the term to be? How, how long, what is the? Three, three years. Normally I'm in my second year and then, you know, you can run for reelection or not. How do you like being in, in, in that high of a position? Um, it's, um, it's a lot. Um, it's, so being a president of USDA is pretty challenging. For sure.

Um, it's, it's, it's because, I mean, a lot of it is, um, um, it's just challenging because there's a lot of, uh, things organizations face on a daily basis and a weekly basis and a monthly basis. You know, some of them were, some of them could be existential, uh, to an organization. Um, and we, we've dealt with that, you know, we've gone through it. We've gone through a, you know, a fire and, you know, early 2020 and stuff like that. But being on the board of WSV gives you a whole different perspective because you get to hear from Uganda. You get to hear from German Shepherd Dog Club in China. You get to meet with all of these people. Um, you know, during the, the Seeger show in Germany, um, WSV board meets with whoever wants to meet with us, any country, uh, member club that meets. So they're given like, whatever, 30 minutes or something like that. They come in. And what we found was it was interesting because we met with a person that I have a lot of respect for, uh, Mr. Chen, who is the president of the club in China, German Shepherd Club in China. Very dedicated and, you know, spends a lot of his own personal, um, um, fortune taking care of animals in China, you know, shelters, cats, dogs, just very passionate about animal, uh, making sure animals are careful. And things like that. Very, very, um, um, um, successful man. And it was interesting because he's also represents, um, countries in his region. Um, and, and then when we were asking him certain questions and he was asking us certain questions, you know, cause, uh, WSV is moving to this harmonization, uh, scheme where we're trying to, you know, throughout the WSV organization, we're trying to make, you know, make sure that people have the same, uh, follow the rules. Breeding regulations in the same way. And all of that. And we asked, um, you know, Mr. Chen, you know, how, you know, how they were doing in, uh, you know, in Asia Pacific. And, you know, it was interesting. His answer was like, well, we're just trying to survive. We're not looking at some of these higher, you know, things. We're just trying to survive. Yeah. You know, that's like, and it kind of brings it home, you know, like you and I are talking about growing the sport, promotion for youth, you know, certain things, you know, like, like that Instagram, TikTok. And there's countries out there that have dog organizations who are just trying to survive. Yeah. And that's the perspective that I got from, uh, being on the board of directors of WSV that I never had before.

So you get to see, you know, I guess, you know, you get to see under the hood of some other organizations that are not as fortunate as we are, you know, um, or Germany or whatever. Then you probably have to, I mean, I'm sure there is like, I know, I know back in Bulgaria, there is the one German Shepherd club. There is the other one and they always fight and who's going to be a member of the WSV. And so I'm sure you, you have to deal with that as well, right? Yeah. Bulgaria, um, has some very, um, it's kind of, um, it was a, it's a strange situation right now, but I actually think that they're working. Together to, uh, um, uh, to, to make, uh, to do the best thing for the German Shepherd. And that's kind of, we met with, uh, with two of them, um, um, and they really are trying to reconcile and put aside their differences for the breed because it will just, it was, it's, um. But as you said, it's not, it's not, the fighting, the fighting is not good. I mean, sometimes, you know, you do have the, the feuds and of course, you know, we're guilty of it too. So in USA, you know, we feuded and, you know, we've, uh, hopefully, you know, are in a better way now for everybody, but that's, um, it has to come to an end. But, uh, as you know, you know, sometimes organizations are also reflections of the people that are in them and that are in power in certain positions. And some people are just hard to get along with. Yeah. Yeah. And some, and they, they didn't, they didn't work with you. They, you know, it's almost like, uh, they just want to see the world burn, you know, to borrow a line for Batman. And, you know, some people just want to see the world burn. Um, but I, I, I mean. Like it's, it's the, the, the people that there, there is like a certain type that want to get to a position. Like it, it's not, it's not the, the passion of dogs or sport. It's this growth of me becoming, uh, in some, some status, some status. Yes. Like, and it, and it's so obvious, but then we have the other people that are like, well, I just want to train my dog. I don't want to be a president. I don't want to be in a committee to help. I just want to train my dog. That's, um, that's, uh, 97, eight, 9% of the population, I think. And then there's the 1% that, uh, but sometimes, sometimes, uh, that, uh, one person can be, uh, very dangerous to an organization. It can be, we try, we try, you know, I mean, it's, it's always, you know, you hope an organization is kind of like a self-policing body too, that they can, they can manage to deal with that. But sometimes it's not possible.

But, um, we are, uh, we are, um, um, I don't know how, how it evolved into this. And I guess I came into it late, you know, I've been president for a few years, but, um, and vice president before. How did they convince you to do that? But how, but how all of this, you know, animosity, uh, started between people specifically. I'm not even talking about organizations. I think I have a good handle on the history of that, but between people, how, you know, but then what happens is when people, though, some of those people become, uh, more powerful and they become, uh, you know, um, in charge of something and then they carry that animosity and that chip with them. Yeah. You, you, you. And I think that's what, I think that's what happened in Bulgaria, just to go back to Bulgaria. Right. No, no, for sure. It's the same thing. It's the same thing. It's like these blood feuds that just wouldn't die. And then it takes some new people to come in sometimes and just say, okay, we give for, you know, let's move forward. Let's, let's, let's do something to move forward. Yeah. Every, every once in a while, like I get either from one or the other club, like either they need advice or help or just to take their side. And I'm like, I can't, like, I don't, it doesn't make sense to me that you guys are handful of people. Like right now they have, uh, with, uh, well, with the Malino club there, it's the same thing. It's like, you know, in some places people really think that, um, we all get along and we don't get along. We don't have to get along. We don't have to like each other. But as long as we have some rules to follow and we are respectful to each other and we go and compete and you have your group of people that you like and you hang out and you have yours. And, and then we meet, we compete, we shake hands, we say hello, we have a drink. It's like any, it's like any sport. Right. That's just, um, but, um, it, that, that part is very hard for me to explain to, to Bulgarians. Bulgarians, they, they're very, it's all personal. It's like, no, we have to be friends to make a club. It's like, dude, you don't need to be friends to make a club. You don't even need to be friends to be teammates on a, on a football team. Right. In Europe. Right. We don't. You don't. I mean, like ideally, ideally, if you have a, your own club and I'm not talking about a club like USC, I'm talking about a local club, just, you know, a local small club.

So ideally you want all the people to be able to get along because if you have one person, you know, in, in a close situation like that, where you're training two, three, four or five times a week. And you have this one cancerous individual, you know, it's just brutal on the whole club. And that I would discourage. And when you take a big club, you know, big sample, you know, you, you get all kinds of people. Yeah. And I hope, I mean, I, I mean, like I'm guilty of it too. Earlier on. And, you know, maybe I was confrontational and said the wrong things and did the wrong things myself. And I'm guilty of it. But, you know, I grew, you know, when I became president of USCA and, you know, dealt with some bigger things in the world. You know, I grew as a person and I see now even more what I told you about going on, whether it's Asia Pacific, you know, and just Mr. Champ who has all the success in the world himself. He's just like, we're just trying to survive. You know. Is China FCI country or no? Yes, they are. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, that's a lot of people with a lot of dogs. It's growing. It's growing a lot. But, you know, in the German Shepherd world to another country that has grown a lot and I think almost as big as there, I think one of the highest growth rate countries right now is India. Super nice people. Also very focused on the German Shepherd want to do the right thing. Nice people. Very welcoming. That country is doing fantastic right now. Yeah. I just was watching. I'm sure you saw it too. Luis was judging the confirmation. They had these amazing trophies. There was some very cool photo with this little kid barely holding this big, beautiful trophy. Yeah. We don't get those trophies in IGP. No. Those are, those are Breach Show trophies, Simon. But I'm so like, like out of our conversation, one thing I'm so excited that you guys came up with the jumping criteria. Yeah. Because I was talking to Luis and, you know, whatever, a couple of podcasts ago and, and he talks so much and he knows so much. Yeah. Physiology, problems with the breed. Yes. Over-regulation. Yes. In all kinds of things, you know. Yeah. I got some education for sure. Like it was very, very cool to listen to him. But I was telling him like, you guys, instead of this endless running, trotting, put, put a jump there also. You know, that, that will change the game. It will. And you can, and you can do it as smart and intelligent as you guys did it. It's not reinforced. It's not like you must or whatever. But it's a, it's a voluntary thing. Right. But it's something that we found, we found that people, people are doing it.

More and more people are doing it. And, and like, we didn't make it a pass fail either right now. It's not a pass fail. It's a, you know, it's an observation that the judge records, you know, how your dog jumps, basically. Yes, but, but it, it so makes sense. Like I, again, not going back to constantly to his conversation, but I was, I, you know, every once in a while, especially before a show, some people locally will come and, and they want to get some reps with the dogs in protection. And there are some show dogs that I personally would be interested to play around with, you know. But the first thing that always comes to mind when it comes to a German Shepherd for me is like, I want to see that dog jump. Like everything stops right there. Just like with a Doberman, I want to see a long bite, you know, like, and not one, but give me like three long bites. Like there is, there is. You want to see the, you want to see the opening phase of the long bite. Yes. It can be so beneficial for the show line and whatever we want to call the more, the dogs that are. Yeah, I didn't know. It's true. It's right now it's show line dogs versus, you know, working line dogs. And, you know, we had that split in the breed some years ago and, you know, always trying to find that, you know, some people try to find that golden middle with the Universal Seager. How do you think the Universal Seager has an idea and where it's going? Do you think it's, I think it's, I think it's, it's, it's, it's good to have the dogs that, that can do it both in the breed aspect and in the work aspect. It's not as popular, it's not as popular in a lot of countries yet. But, but, which is why, you know, you only get, you know, like 60 dogs or something like that in the Universal Seager championship. Because, you know, some countries are just not, you know, focused on that, whereas they may be in IGP. So like in IGP, we might get competitors from Thailand, from, you know, China, from Japan. And Universal Seager, you might not get those people at all. So it's still, it's still in a developing, it's still in a developing aspect. But, yeah, the idea was to find that goal, you know, golden middle for people and to show them that, you know, a dog can work and a dog can have the breeding qualities we're looking forward to in a breed standard. A lot of people, but a lot, you know, a lot of IGP people don't care. You know, the beauty's in the work. Right. The dog can be the ugliest thing in the world, but the dog has fantastic obedience, excellent protection work. You know, they're happy. Then there's a, there are a lot of dogs.

It is a strange thing, the whole confirmation. And I, I mean, I, I was a IGP judge. I was a confirmation judge. And confirmation, the whole point of it is so it can be. So you can, you, it can be functional. That's the, the whole point was that if, okay, it has to look good, but you cannot disregard functionality. The moment function is at risk, you, you know, beauty versus function. It just should not be ever a debate. We agree. We agree. 100%. 100% agree. It's, um, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a situation in the German shepherd world. That's fairly unique. I don't think it really exists in the Malinois world per se, or. We do have show dogs, but it's just the. There's a lot of money. There's a lot of money in, in, in, in, in a show, in the show. But, um, you know, people love what they love about the, you know, the German shepherd, you know, who am I to tell somebody, Hey, uh, you know, your show line, you know, you shouldn't, you should get a working line dog or, you know, not love your show line dog. I mean, that's just my opinion. And, you know, people can, I love, I love my working line dogs, but I understand that people love their show line German shepherds. Right. I mean, I, I, I liked them when, uh, like I, I liked them when they can. Move. I actually remember some of your, I remember some of your old videos that you did with the show line German shepherd. Yeah. You showed, you showed one at a USCA championship one time. I mean, that wasn't like, it wasn't, I just was in some seminar in Brazil and I, the dog was young and they didn't think any of them. And within three days, that dog was just, just flourishing, shining. And I got, I fell in love with the dog. I probably would have just taken him day one for free. At the end of the seminar, I'm like, well, I know you guys don't like him. I can take him. And it's like, no, we don't take him now. And so there was a lot of negotiations and, and I just got him because I really liked the dog as a, his personality. Not like the, the looks wasn't. No, but I, but it's, but that's exactly my point is, uh, who am I to tell you not to like this dog? Cause it's a show line. And I get, I get, I get, you know, this is a discussion I have with, uh, sometimes. People that are very purist, um, about working, I mean, police heritage and things like that. And I, and I, you know, I, I can't, you know, we have, we have youth people who love their show line dogs that, you know, train their show line dogs and IGP. You know, who am I to tell them, Hey, you need to go to a working line dog.

But, but I can tell you, I mean, we have just as many bad working line dogs out there too. You know, there's a, there's a lot, there's a lot of dogs, uh, you know, in the working lines also that are not like great. Let's say quality dogs. I mean, at least I get it. You know, you're, you're starting out with the hope of a sports car. Um, but, um, people love what they love. Not everybody can deal with a dog like I have or a dog like, uh, you have, or a dog like, uh, you know, uh, people, you know, people just want, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I, I like, they want what they love, you know, and this is what they love to do. You know, we have, we have members. Most of our members are working dog, um, enthusiasts, but we have a fair amount of members that are also, um, love the show ring. And, and, um, I mean, one of our show, one of our, um, actually all of our, uh, breed judges, Richard Shook, Heidi, Heidi Teest, and Karen McIntyre. They're all, uh, working dog people also. I mean, they have worked, you know, they, they do IGP with their dogs. They train IGP with their dogs. You know, Richard's wife does bulldogs. Uh, he trains, uh, working line German shepherds. He's a show judge himself. I mean, a breed judge, you know, Heidi's a breed judge. She's also, she's also an international breed judge, but she loves IGP and she's an IGP judge. I mean, there's certain, there's certain things, but I, what I do hate, um, what I do hate about, uh, some of the, you know, things that I see out there in the world is just, uh, the corruption aspect of it, um, uh, in a breed, uh, in a breed thing. And, um, I, I don't like that. It is very hard because it's really, it's good money there. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. That's just, and just, you know, it, you know, I could see how it lends itself to some of that because, you know, you do an IGP trial, you know, you get seven, 10 dogs. You do a show, a breed event, you know, you're going to get 100 to 200 dogs. It's a lot more money. Yes. It's, um, it's an, it's an issue that, um, you know, it actually, in some of the private meetings we have with WSV members, they express as a concern, um, and I, it's a legitimate concern is that, uh, we need to, we need to do, uh, a better job policing ourselves and, and, you know, being, um. How are, how are the, the, the kind of the big influential people in the show world from Germany, how are they, do they interact in any way with the WSV or? Um, I mean. Cause I don't see they having a reason to, but. No, they, I mean, of course they do because the breed standard is still the same for everybody.

And, you know, the bigger, uh, more, um, um, more, uh, well-known breed people in Germany are the ones that end up judging the breed events around the world. So. Yeah. You know, W, WSV, you know, had, you know, might have a show, but it's, it's not normal, but every country, every WSV member country normally has a Seeger show. So, you know, you'll see some of these, um, uh, more, um, prolific, uh, judges and, and famous names in, in those types of venues. Okay. So, yeah, you know, you know, it's not necessarily, uh, like a straight line, uh, but there's a lot of branches in WSV that, uh, Germany, um, is a part of and as they should be. The herding, is that a thing or it's gone? Yeah. Um, yeah, it's actually, uh, uh, interesting factoid for you. I'm not going to say it, uh, but I think we're one of the only other countries other than Germany that has a herding club, club, an HGH club as part of our organization, Ulf Kitzel. Uh, it's his club. Um, uh, they're in New York, a state of, I can't remember New York or Connecticut. I think New York state, but they are the only, uh, herding club. Um, I think other, uh, yeah, it's not a, it's not a, um, it's not a super common thing because it's hard to find sheep around, uh, USA, you know, and, and area and for people to know what they're doing to, to get involved with that. But what we're also seeing is, um, I don't know if you've heard about RH. Yes. Yes. Yes. So that, that is also taken off. We had our first RH national championship. Um, you know, it was a little bit, uh, you know, not without issues as any first championship, but, uh, it's also, you know, starting to kind of like grow as a, as an avenue for people. Um. And WSV, do they do agility trials or no? They do. So right now, um, every WSV world championship has had concurrently with it an agility event going on. Um, but at the latest WSV general assembly, it was proposed that we also host an agility world championship to make it more formal. Yeah. See, you know, like I'm not, I'm not, I don't know a lot about agility. Um, and I'm not going to pretend I do, but I, I could tell you is that, um, in an organization in Germany, like the BDH, um, IGP used to be here and agility here. Now IGP is way down and agility is way up. Absolutely. That's kind of why I was asking that that's without a doubt. I'm not, it's just not what I do. And it's not what, you know, USC is, uh, is, but if, uh, you know, uh, people want to also do agility, I am not against it. I mean, it's some activity they do with their, with their, with their dogs and, uh, you know,

it involves some obedience, involves athletic, athleticism and things like that. But, um, it's not, I'm not a breeder. It's not something I would use as a breeding, um, you know, criteria, you know, for a German shepherd, but, uh, why would I be, you know, like I, you know, like, it'd be great. If you want to go do that with your dog, do it. That's the, I'm surprised that the WSV will, is thinking to combine them. No, it was, it was combined. Now they're thinking about making it its own. Now it's, uh, to make it its own, actually, to make it bigger, to make the agility. Like a world championship stand on its own. That's the, I think, uh, when the Belgian Shepherd World Club, when they put the obedience and agility and monduring and IGP and the bike, bike shoring. Yes, yes, yes. All, all the same venue. It was amazing. Like it truly was a, a very, very cool stuff to see for the first few years. But then you start to realize that everybody's in their game and you don't even have time. You know that there is big names doing very top level performances 50 meters away. And, and you don't have time. Even if you pick for a moment, you don't have time. You're, you're, you're there for one reason. Yeah. And, and, and I still, and I still like to pick up on something you're saying. I feel like, you know, and I give FMBB a lot of credit. I mean, those events are monumental to put on. I know they are. But I also feel like they dilute each other. Yeah. And I think like, obviously FMBB, IGP probably, you know, is the, the, the crown and the jewel and the world cup, you know, and I think that the other events are kind of lost a little bit in the, in terms of, you know, what I, you know, in that whole, you know, context of FMBB, but, but I do think if agility was on its own and something else was on its own, it might have been, you know, it might be more of an event. Right. More focus, you know, more focus. Yeah. I think the FMBB, and I'm not a hundred percent, but I think that there are some ideas thrown again to, to where it makes sense to, to break the, the whole, all events at the same. It's impossible to. I mean, imagine finding a sport complex somewhere that can host all this at the same time. Oh yeah. That's wild. It's very difficult. Very difficult. And, and the other thing is like, you know, I look at that, that thing is like kind of the, the Olympics of dogs. Right. And the thing about the Olympics is like, um, now in the world we live in, you know, they broadcast everything all at once and you can flip from channel to channel to watch, you

know, swimming to watch something else, to watch something else, you know, and they, they try to stagger the times and things like that. And they try to not dilute, you know, still, you know, of course you dilute it. But whenever you have too many things going on at once, it always dilutes each other. It can't not. How can it not? What is next? What's coming next? What are you judging? Anything big coming or do you have anything? Invitation? I mean, for USA, for USA, I think everybody's kind of like, uh, coming out of the nationals, getting ready for the working dog championship, which will be in May, um, in Indiana. Um, my focus in the new year is going to be what we talked about that kind of try to now get more of a strategic outreach to, uh, um, to the legislative side, to the political side to get more. Um, so we, so we don't suffer the same. And I know in USA, it's much different, but I don't want to even come close to, to, to, to having to deal with what they're having to deal with in Austria right now. I feel kind of helpless in Austria. Um, um, and I feel like, uh, um, I feel helpless as to what may happen in Germany, um, if Austria falls, but, um, try to do everything to, to, to help. You know, what is the, the, the saddest thing of all this? Uh, is that country, countries that don't have to comply to such changes, they would do it because it's cool, because the Austrians are doing it and not realizing that the Austrians are going to be forced to accept that. It's not that they are just, it's not a, that, that same thing happens. They're just with, like, electric colors. I, I know in Bulgaria, they don't have to, but it's like, well, in Germany, they don't use them. And in these countries, they don't use them. So we don't use them because it's the cool thing. And it's just a little bit, um, kind of sad that, uh, countries that can maintain what they have get confused. It's just another, it's just another place that maybe we failed in educating people and, right. And things like that. It's just, it's a, it's just, uh. When is the USA gonna be able to host a WDF event? Do we know that? Um, I don't know. I think, uh, we had a club offer to host, but I, um, um, but I, I, I, I'm, I'm hopeful we can do it. Uh, I know next year it's in California. I mean, I would love to do it. So there's no problem. There should be no reasons anymore. Right. I mean, we, no, we have, no, we have, we have a lot, you know, we have some clubs that can act, you know, that can do it. I mean, it's always, it always comes down to the financial aspect for a club and just

that hardship because normally when USCA hosts an event, you know, we pay for all the bills, but this will be an AWDF event. So then, you know, the financial, um, aspect is, you know, you know, whatever. I, I'm not even sure how much comes from AWDF. So then the club has to bear the burden of everything else. Yeah. There is something to be ironed out with AWDF with this because they don't. No, I'm, I'm all for it. I think it'd be great. I think it'd be, um, usually, usually when we, usually when we, we get the best, um, uh, attendance, if the trial is somewhere in, uh, Northeastern, mid central, mid Eastern part of the country, we get a lot of, we get a lot of entries. We get a lot of entries. Yeah. So I can, I can envision if USCA hosts AWDF, you might maybe have close to a hundred entries. Yeah. No, no, I'm sure we, it's going to be big one. I'm sure. I mean, I mean, you guys. California, California is always difficult. And they have a lot of respect and love for people from Cali that drive out to the Boston area to show their dogs or to Indiana to show their dogs. But what we found is, uh, as much as I love visiting California or going to California, it's very difficult to go out there with the dog. Very difficult. Yes. Especially, I mean, now there is no airline. And I mean, Alaska and American with some crazy restrictions, but you can somehow try to manage it. Otherwise it's driving across the country. My dog, my, so like I give an example. So like, and this is just a personal thing and it's not for, I mean, for you, maybe it's a lot easier. I have a big dog right now. My dog has to fly in a 700 for me to go to a trial in California. I would have to fly through Frankfurt. Right. I'd have to fly. I believe I have to fly from Boston to Frankfurt and Frankfurt to somewhere in California because Alaska air couldn't even take this dog. And that's the case for a lot of German shepherd people. If your dog can't fit into a 500 crate, you know, and you know, you're taking a risk there. But also when you go to the airport, I mean, you hope and cross your fingers and stress a lot about it. But if Alaska air for some reason refuses the dog, you're kind of stuck. It was so easy. Oh, every airline and you were shopping for prices and it was so easy. Delta, everybody, everybody. Delta. Yeah. I remember. Now it's, now I'm telling you, like if I flew to a trial in California, I would literally fly through Frankfurt. Yeah. No, I can see how that really is on the option, which is ridiculous, but wow. It sounds ridiculous. Wow. You have to fly to Europe to fly to California. And that's not changing.

That's for sure not changing. We, so we, you know, we, I mean, obviously people in California and people, you know, in other places want to have a trial in California. And I get that, you know, 100%. Right. And I, you know, of course I support it, but it just turns out sometimes that it's prohibitive for some people to get out there. And I know, you know, just tell people to drive and people will drive. Yeah. We're crazy dog people. We do that. We do, but it's a lot of time off of work. It's very costly. Very costly. I mean. If you have a dog that can fit in a 500 crate, you're great. If you don't, no. You have to drive. Or fly, like I said. Right. Man, that's, that's wild. I haven't thought of this, but that's very. Yeah. No, think about it. Like for me, you know, my dog is, you know, 90 pounds. He's, you know, 65 and, you know, centimeters or 66 centimeters. You know, he's not a small German shepherd. It's a male, big German shepherd. He flies in a 700 crate. Period. Yeah. And, and you really have no choice, but to do something crazy like that. Nope. So I want either that or drive. Wow. I. Yeah. We are crazy. Dogs poor people. USA is always on the front in our country, without a doubt. And. I thank you for saying that. I mean, we. There's no question. My, my, my philosophy is always, you know, as president of USCA, you know, just try to do the best thing for our members and for the working dog community. And I know that the working dog community, even as the USA has had its differences, but I hope that in the coming years, we put them all aside, you know. Right. Whether I was to blame, somebody else was to blame, you know, it's, you know, you know, it's time to move forward. And I think we are moving forward in a very nice way right now. Yeah. I am. I, I, for sure we are moving and, and hopefully it, we, we cannot afford anymore not to be working together. You can tell, you know, like, I know that, there's some AWDF, you know, people that are involved in the canine and sport community. Yes. But it's scary out there right now for the working dog world. Vadim. That was awesome, man. Thank you. My pleasure. Anytime. Hey, cheers. I see you drinking blends. Yes. Yes. Yeah. I, this was the first time I, I actually never had this and I really like it. Um, yeah, it's a, it's a little high octane, but it's nice. Yeah. I like somebody a week ago, uh, uh, uh, uh, one of my students that graduated from my doctorate in school, bro. Yeah. It's like, no, it's a great, it's a great bourbon. Enjoy it, man. Next time we're having a cigar in person. All right. Cheers. Thank you. Thank you. All right, Evan. Bye. Thank you. Thank you for everything you do.

No, no. It's Mitchell, my friend. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.