NePoPoNePoPo® (Bart & Michael Bellon) · 글
NePoPo® 교육 과정 중 Silver 단계는 Gold 단계로 넘어가기 위한 필수 과정임 [01:25]Silver 단계를 거치지 않고 바로 Gold로 가려는 사람들에게는 동일한 언어(용어 및 개념)를 공유하는 것이 중요함을 강조함 [01:25]NePoPo®의 언어를 익히는 데 집중하는 것이 매우 유익함 [01:51]Silver 과정의 경험:techniques)을 사용하고, 그 결과가 좋으면 단순히 그 기술을 반복하는 방식을 취했음 [04:21]NePoPo® 스쿨을 거치면서는 "왜 이 기술을 사용하면 그러한 결과가 나타나는가"에 대한 근본적인 이유(the why)를 깨닫게 됨 [04:21]NePoPo® 스쿨에 대해 물을 때, 단순히 음식(food)을 어떻게 주고 타이밍을 맞추는지 배우는 수준을 넘어 매우 지적인 경험(intellectual experience)이라고 설명함 [05:19]Michael Carpenter의 사례:Silver School과 Gold School에 참여했을 때 그는 지능적으로 훈련에 접근했음 [05:51]brain result로, 매우 정밀하지만 개에게서 열정(fire)이나 탐구(exploration)의 모습이 보이지 않았음 [06:16]Facebook에서 매우 열정적으로 활동하고 있으며 과거와 완전히 다른 접근 방식을 보임 [06:16]mature, ripen)해지면서 이제는 더 나은 방식으로 구현할 수 있게 된 것임 [06:48]fun)이 가득함 [06:48]must do side)을 잊어버릴 수도 있으나, 여전히 균형을 유지하며 NePoPo®다운 모습을 보여줌 [06:48]Michael Carpenter는 Silver School과 Gold School을 반복해서 수강함 [07:22]Platinum 수준의 학습 효과를 가져다줌 [07:22]turn around all that theory in the practical working source)하기까지는 약 5년 정도의 시간이 소요됨 [07:22]NePoPo® 스쿨에는 점점 더 젊은 수강생들이 참여하고 있음 [07:56]school answering)을 넘어선 단계로 나아가야 함 [08:29]trial and error(시행착오) 과정은 단계를 건너뛸 수 없음 [08:54]NePoPo®의 미래를 논하기 어려운 이유 중 하나는, Michael과 본인(Bart)이 현재의 교육 방식을 언젠가 중단할 것이기 때문임 [08:54]Michael과 본인이 전파하고자 하는 핵심 가치임 [10:01]Michael과 본인이 더 많은 수의 학생들에게 이론(theory)을 가르치는 방식이 될 것임 [10:01]Michael과 본인은 학생들과의 시각적 접촉(visual contact)이 필요함 [10:01]Will Gerido가 해석한 NePoPo®, Joe Bop이 해석한 NePoPo®, Barbara가 해석한 NePoPo® 등, 모두가 각자의 강조점(accentuation)을 가지게 될 것이라는 설명) [10:55]Michael과 본인이 처음 만났을 당시 두 사람 모두 이혼한 상태였음 [11:27]Bart)은 전 세계적인 스포츠 분야에 집중하여 여러 rodeo show를 돌아다니고 있었음 [11:55]Michael은 Bethesda에서 아주 성공적인 소규모 비즈니스를 운영하며, 반려견들을 대상으로 한 달에 5~10마리씩 반복적으로 동일한 기술들을 적용하고 있었음 [11:55]pressure stops, rewarding을 실험하고 있었고, positive reinforcement(긍정 강화)와 negative reinforcement(부정 강화)의 결과들을 shaping 과정에서의 시행착오를 통해 체득하고 있었음 [12:23]NePoPo® School 수강생들은 강사들이 shaping(조형)과 free thinking(자유로운 사고)에 지나치게 강조점을 둔다고 오해했음 [18:19]command(명령)를 포함한 전체 시스템을 가르치고 모든 요소를 강조했으나, 수강생들은 자신이 보고 싶은 부분만 선택적으로 받아들임 [18:44]luring(유도)이 법적으로 금지된 것이라는 오해가 있었음 [19:10]luring은 매우 효과적인 classical system(고전적 시스템)이며, 이를 부정할 필요는 없음 [19:43]luring뿐만 아니라 let the dog find out(개가 스스로 찾게 하는 기법)을 병행해야 하며, 두 기법을 모두 실험해 봐야 함 [19:43]food driven(먹이 보상 욕구), prey driven(포식 본능), 매우 강한 biter(무는 힘)를 가짐 [20:09]free thinking(자유로운 사고) 과정: 초기에는 자유를 주면 허용되지 않는 행동을 즉각적으로 저질러 스스로 문제를 일으켰으나, 현재는 문제를 일으키지 않으며 자유로운 사고를 할 수 있게 됨 [20:39]kennel이나 crate 안에 소변을 보는 습관이 있었음 [21:10]hot wire(전기 울타리 선)를 설치함 [21:10]aversive (혐오 자극)를 thing (대상/상황)에 적용하자 개가 완전히 다른 개로 변함 [22:09]pressure (압박)를 주고 pressure stops (압박을 멈추는 것)뿐임 [22:09]extra reward (추가적인 보상)를 얻게 됨 [22:09]piece of art (예술 작품)인가? 아니, 이것은 단지 basic training (기본 훈련)일 뿐임 [22:09]Michael의 개는 정말 사랑스러운 작은 동물임, 믿을 수 없을 정도로 침착하고(level-headed) 훌륭함 [22:40]school (교육 기관/시스템)의 미래는 우리에게 매우 중요함 [23:08]business model (비즈니스 모델)이기도 함 [23:08]Michael과 나는 이것을 NePoPo® 대신 manager training (매니저 훈련)이라고 부를 수도 있음 [23:08]basic consequences (기본적인 결과/인과관계)를 다시 배워야 함 [23:08]baby consequences (기초적인 결과/인과관계)에 관한 것임 [23:39]manager theory (매니저 이론)를 사용하지 않고, 단지 개 훈련 방식을 사람에게 적용할 뿐임 (인간적인 규모로) [23:39]be as involved as you need to but not too too involved) [23:39]make sure that the whole thing works without you being there (당신이 없어도 모든 것이 돌아가게 하라)는 것임 [24:07]Michael의 개는 혼자 둬도 아무것도 하지 않음 (will do nothing, will do no dumb) [24:07]Michael Carpenter가 최근 새 강아지를 입양했는데, 매우 넓은 범위에서 foundations (기초)를 다지고 있음 [24:34]attitude (태도)를 만들고, 개가 모든 것을 스스로 발견하게 하여 building confidence (자신감 형성)와 problem solving (문제 해결) 능력을 키워줌 [25:04]luring (유도)이나 glowing(칭찬/보상 남발) 대신 개의 태도를 형성하는 방식임 [25:04]instead of micromanaging (마이크로매니징 대신) [25:32]micromanaging을 하면 개는 모든 행동을 위해 오직 주인에게만 의존하게 됨 [25:32]time clock (시간 제약)이 있으며, 보통 성과를 내기까지 2~3주밖에 시간이 없으므로 그런 방식은 불가능함 [25:32]negative reinforcement (부적 강화)를 사용하고 마지막에 basic food (기본적인 음식 보상)를 주어야 한다"고 가르침 [26:03]NePoPo®이지만, 이것 자체가 하나의 예술 작품은 아님 [26:03]pet dog training(반려견 훈련)과 같은 기본 행동(basic behaviors)을 완성하기 위해 주어진 시간 프레임은 얼마인가?Garido 등)가 통제할 수 있는 개라고 해서 일반 고객도 똑같이 통제할 수 있는 것은 아니다. [27:02]on cue(큐에 맞춰 반응하는) 환상적인 퍼포먼스 견으로 완성하는 단계. (Bart의 전문 영역) [27:32]talent code(재능 코드)에서 언급하는 것처럼, 개의 생애 주기 단계에 따라 접근 방식(math)은 달라져야 한다. [27:59]Bart의 방식(마지막 5% 정교화)으로 훈련할 수 없으며, 반대로 Enos가 강아지를 훈련하는 방식으로는 마지막 5%의 정교함을 완성할 수 없다. [27:59]switch gears(기어 변속, 훈련 모드 전환)를 할 수 있는 능력이 또 다른 전문성이다. [28:29]naughty(말썽꾸러기)하게 내버려 두다가, 성견이 되어감에 따라 점진적으로 규율을 tighten (조여주는) 유연함이 필요하다. [28:29]Silver에서 진행된 훈련 주간의 철학: 실수를 장려(encouraged mistakes)함. [29:26]set up the dog for failure)과는 다름. [29:26]liberty(자유)와 freedom(재량)을 주는 것이 중요함. [29:26]micromanaging(지나친 미세 관리)을 지양해야 한다. [29:58]PSA(Protection Sports Association) Level 2 등 보호 훈련(protection club) 시나리오 연습 중, 즉석에서(on the spot) 예고 없는 시나리오(surprise scenarios)를 구성함 [30:25]Silver(NePoPo® 훈련 단계 중 하나) 과정에서 얻은 핵심 개념이며, 많은 반려견 훈련사들이 충분히 듣지 못하는 개념임 [31:46]Bart Bellon과 Michael Bellon은 훈련 경력이 쌓일수록 시행착오(trial and error)를 선호함 [32:18]PSA나 Ring Sport와 같은 가변적인 게임(variable game)에서 예전 훈련 방식은 개가 즉각적으로 지시를 따르게 하는 데 집중했음 [32:49]clicker 소리가 들리지 않거나 음식이 제공되지 않게 함(no food for example) [33:21]e-collar의 아주 낮은 단계로 "tap tap tap tap" (작은 불편함)을 전달함 [33:21]tap(e-collar 자극)을 주는 방식으로 전환함 [33:51]scent work(후각 훈련)에서 특히 중요하며, 개가 "나는 옳다(i'm right)"라는 자신감을 가질 수 있도록 환경을 조성해야 함 — [34:18]NePoPo® School의 핵심은 Jackie와 그녀의 팀이 제공하는 '호스피탈리티(hospitality)'임 — [34:45]bonding(유대감 형성)의 필수 요소 — [34:45]virtual world 내에서 게임을 개발하는 아이디어를 논의 중이나 비용 문제로 신중을 기하고 있음 — [35:43]baggage/luggage)을 바탕으로 실현하고자 하며, 이를 구현해 줄 디자이너를 찾는 단계임 — [35:43]NePoPo® games를 통해 positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, double reinforcement 등을 익히게 할 계획 — [36:09]role games를 직접 수행하면서 가장 많이 배움 — [36:41]e-collar 교육 클래스에서 교육생들이 전체 과정을 단 45분 만에 해결함 — [37:34]Martin System®의 가장 낮은 단계(lowest level) 버튼을 탭(tap)하여 배변을 유도함 [41:43]Michael Bellon이 교육 마지막 주(금요일)에 언급한 핵심 메시지: 다른 시스템들도 훈련사가 무엇을 하는지 정확히 알고 있다면 효과적일 수 있음 [43:09]NePoPo® 시스템의 관점:shaping(셰이핑)이 효과가 없다면 old NePoPo®(기존의 네포포 방식)를 사용할 수 있음 [43:42]NePoPo®는 종교(religion)가 아니며, 편향되지 않은(not very polarizing) 유연한 시스템임 [44:09]NePoPo®에 대한 오해 불식: 사람들은 흔히 이 시스템을 두고 "Kool-Aid를 마신다(맹목적으로 추종한다)"고 생각하지만, 실제로는 그렇지 않음 [44:42]luring(유인) 방식 또한 훈련의 한 방법으로 인정함 [44:42]Bart Bellon이 Tom에게 힐링을 가르치는 방식과 Michael Bellon이 Jack에게 가르치는 방식은 다르며, 개별 개마다 다르게 접근함 [45:39]Tom과 함께하는 작업(work with Tom): 개가 가진 잠재력을 최대치로 끌어올리는 것을 보여주기에 적합하지만, 매우 위험한 작업이기에 대중에게 공개하지 않음 [45:39]Ragnar도 과거에 그랬음) [46:36]Emil Jacquet의 선수 관리 전략을 언급 [47:06]Emil Jacquet은 모든 선수의 심리적 프로필(psychological profile)을 파악하고 있었음 [47:06]Bixente Lizarazu(왼쪽 윙어)의 경우, 가정적인 성향을 고려해 5분간 가족 안부를 묻는 등 사회적인 대화를 나눔 [47:33]NePoPo® 훈련의 핵심은 규율(discipline)과 자유로운 사고(freedom of thinking), 집중력(concentration), 동기부여(motivation) 사이의 완벽한 균형을 찾는 것임 [50:26]Michael이 "Welcome"이라고 한 일화 [50:54]whip)이라고 해석함) [51:20]seminar hoppers)'들은 즐거움을 위해 참석하기 때문에 규율을 세우기 어려웠고, 이는 강사에게 큰 스트레스를 주었음 [52:24]NePoPo® School을 운영하며 규칙을 도입함으로써 모두에게 훨씬 수월한 환경을 조성함 [52:58]hours where we work)과 자유 시간(free time moments)을 인지하게 됨 [52:58]teacher)는 사람들을 사로잡는 사람(catchy person)이어야 함 [53:25]life on stage)를 선호하는 이유:fading away), 조는지(falling asleep), 지루해하는지 즉각적으로 파악할 수 있기 때문 [53:25]PowerPoint presentation을 사용하며 청중에게 등을 돌리거나, 어두운 환경에서 강의하는 방식은 학생들의 집중력을 놓치게 만듦 [53:25]picking his nose) 등을 파악하기 어려움 [53:55]NePoPo® School의 오프라인 그룹은 비대면 방식보다 훨씬 좋은 피드백(feedback)을 얻을 수 있음 [53:55]Michael과 강사는 학교의 미래(future of the school) 개념을 정립하기 위해 매우 열심히 노력 중 [53:55]break)를 가지더라도 완성도 있는 시스템을 만들고자 함 [53:55]theory)은 Michael과 강사가 제공 [54:25]practical work)은 검증된 인재(existential gold people)들에게 위임 [54:25]workshops) 형태가 될 가능성이 있음 [54:25]free market economy) 원칙에 따라, 시스템이 훌륭하다면 사람들은 다시 찾아올 것임 [54:25]real(실질적인 훈련 실력)이 뛰어나야 하며, 동시에 people-minded(사람 중심적인 태도)를 갖춰야 한다. 실력이 없어도 안 되지만, 실력이 좋아도 사람을 대하는 태도가 부족하면 고객은 다시 찾지 않는다. [54:57]NePoPo®를 가르치고 싶어 하는 사람들은 우리 웹사이트를 찾아보고, 우리는 그들에게 NePoPo®를 교육하는 방법을 제공한다. [54:57]NePoPo® 책만 가지고 있다면, 이는 다소 문제가 될 수 있다. 우리가 얼마나 많은 질문을 받는지 상상하기 어려울 정도다. [55:26]Michael과 내가 우리의 business advisors(비즈니스 고문)와 함께 구상 중이며, 이 고문들은 매우 훌륭한 사람들이다. [55:26]over one night of ice(성급하거나 무리한 결정)를 내린 적이 없다. [55:58]Martin System® 회사는 매우 강력하고 독특한 프로젝트이며, 우리 학교와 Martin System®이 결합한 형태는 거대 트럭 회사들도 꿈꾸는 매우 독특한 프로필을 가진다. [55:58]Innotech 브랜드에서 pro stuff(전문 스태프)로 활동했던 시절을 회상해보면, 그들은 단순히 제품을 홍보하는 사람이 아니라 강아지 훈련에 대한 좋은 이론을 설파하는 사람들이었다. [56:23]Innotech의 세일즈 매니저였던 Steve Gill에게 예산이 필요하다고 말했을 때, 그는 이렇게 답했다. "Bart, people are going to pay for knowledge are you kidding me?" — (사람들이 지식에 비용을 지불할 것이라는 내 말에 대해, 지식에 돈을 쓴다는 게 말이 되냐며 놀라워했던 일화) [56:49]animal welfare)를 우선시하며, 고객과 훈련사 모두가 이득을 보는 win-win 관계를 구축하는 것이 가장 중요하다. [58:10]Bart와 나(Michael)가 나이가 들었기 때문이다. [58:45]inspections(검사), supervisors(감독), cops(경찰), police things(단속/규제) 같은 역할을 하고 싶지 않다. [58:45]NePoPo® 학교에서는 Silver 단계와 Gold 단계를 가르치며, 수강생들이 이를 배운 후 각자의 현장으로 돌아가 무엇을 어떻게 가르치고 말하는지는 그들의 몫임 [59:20]NePoPo®의 방식을 그대로 따르는지, 혹은 변형하는지 일일이 확인하거나 책임질 필요는 없으며, 그렇게 하지 않는 것이 좋음 [59:20]public)임 [59:48]Bob Marley의 노래 가사를 인용하며 대중은 결코 어리석지 않음을 강조 [59:48]Bart와 Michael은 이처럼 지속 가능한 운영을 위한 균형점을 찾는 방법을 가르치려 함 [61:26]Bart는 bitework를 자신의 주된 관심사(battle horse)로 꼽으며, 추후 이와 관련해 더 전문적인 교육을 진행할 계획이 있음 [62:00]bitework 시장에는 동의할 수 없는 근거 없는 주장(mumbo jumbo)들이 난무하고 있음 [62:25]bitework의 핵심: a bite is not a bite (물기라고 다 같은 물기가 아님) 그리고 an out is not an out (놓기라고 다 같은 놓기가 아님)이라는 사실을 사람들이 배워야 함 [62:25]barking)에도 다양한 종류가 있다는 것을 이해해야 함 [62:55]hobby person) 사람은 자신이 통제할 수 있는 훈련 수준을 명확히 알아야 함: "the dog can do better but can people do better that's the question" (개는 더 잘할 수 있지만, 사람이 더 잘할 수 있는지가 핵심 질문) [62:55]aggression)을 기반으로 한 훈련은 매우 주의해야 함 [62:55]out(놓기)을 명확하게 수행할 수 있어야 함 [63:27]bitework 교육들을 보며 놀랄 때가 많으며, 본인의 경험을 통해 올바른 방향을 제시하고 싶은 의지가 있음 [63:27]prey(먹잇감 사냥 본능) 상태에서 통제하는 것 자체가 이미 매우 어려운 일임 [64:20]identification(식별), nose work(후각 훈련), bitework(물기 훈련), barking(짖기) 등 다룰 주제가 너무 많아 추후 별도의 팟캐스트에서 논의할 필요가 있음 [64:20]DVG champ(독일 셰퍼드 협회 챔피언)를 두 번이나 차지함 [64:49]dog trophy, barking, heeling(발측 보행) 등 모든 것을 훈련받았음 [64:49]prey(먹잇감 사냥 본능)와 play(놀이)에서 시작됨 [65:22]reactive aggression(반응성 공격성)을 유도하는 것이 아니라, 개가 준비되었을 때 공격성을 밖으로 표출하도록 하는 훈련 방식임 [65:22]KNPV(네덜란드 경찰견 훈련 협회)에서 가장 선호하는 운동은 barking on the box(상자 보고 짖기)임 [65:51]barking on the box 특징:barking on the box의 진화 과정을 분석해보면, 왜 우리가 우리 개들에게 그것을 그대로 복제하지 못하는지 의문이 들며, 이것이 매우 오래된 훌륭한 기법임을 깨닫게 됨 [67:20]KNPV(Koninklijke Nederlandse Politiehond Vereniging, 네덜란드 경찰견 훈련) 훈련을 받은 이력이 있었음 [68:45]KNPV 훈련에서는 물건을 악착같이 공격하도록 가르치며, 네덜란드에서 수입된 탐지견 중에서도 이와 같은 방식으로 훈련받아 'uncontrolled aggression(통제되지 않는 공격성)'을 보이는 개들이 있음 [68:45]cue(신호)를 통해 'fun work(즐거운 작업)'를 수행해야 함. 개에게도 삶의 균형이 필요하기 때문 [70:07]cue가 입력되었을 때는 "Don't move, don't move and don't move(움직이지 마, 움직이지 마, 움직이지 마)"의 상태여야 함을 명확히 이해해야 함 [70:37]clicker training(클리커 훈련)에 능숙하고 행동의 결과(consequences)를 잘 다루는 훈련사라면, 이제는 'negative reinforcement(부적 강화)' 훈련사가 되기 위해 노력하며 그 원리를 이해해야 함 [71:04]Bart & Michael Bellon은 이번 라이브 방송 내용을 편집 없이 그대로 유튜브 채널에 게시하는 것에 대해 합의함 [75:52]Bart & Michael Bellon은 사전 준비 없이 진행되는 'Spontaneous(즉흥적인)' 인터뷰 방식을 선호하며, 대화의 흐름에 따라 진행하는 것을 즐김 [76:21]Bart & Michael Bellon은 팟캐스트나 기타 영상 콘텐츠를 제작할 때 편집과 관련하여 다음과 같은 주의를 당부함 [76:49]Bart & Michael Bellon은 감사를 표함 [77:17]Bart & Michael Bellon과 진행자는 서로 인사를 나누며 마무리함 [77:49]Michael의 반려견(little black dog)이 입질(bite) 훈련을 하는 모습으로 영상 종료 [77:49][00:00] to have you guys both it's a pleasure an honor to have you guys on the interview again for a second time and now we're gonna be talking about you know a little bit about the popa system but the school and I wanted to I wanted to tell you I mean I told you I told you there in person and and I told you through email [00:26] too but it was such a great experience having the you know having to having going through school all the I mean that that those five days were so full of eye-opening moments the stories you guys's explanations the the the pressure that was in the that was part of the school like the [00:56] daily tests you know the the putting the students on the spot like hey get up on the get up on the front of the classroom and start talking about this you got two minutes it's just such a great experience it was very it was a lot of pressure but it was good so I loved it thank you guys well that's part of the reason why people must go to silver and can't go to gold without silver because everybody needs to be able to speak the same language because we've had a lot of people who [01:25] want to skip silver and just come to gold right accomplished but we need to all speak the same language I'm telling you it's such a and I know it seems and I've had this conversation with you know with people who are not in a pop of people right and and the the one hiccup that people sometimes have is you know it's it's only five days and you don't have dogs but it makes perfect sense because the [01:51] theory alone is so it's so in-depth that I mean it's very beneficial to not have a dog you know to just do to just do theory it's incredibly beneficial to just focus on the note-taking and and the learning of the language it's just it's it's great I think I think people look at it as oh you know it's only [02:20] five days and there's no dog but really it's it's five days of a lot of information that that you have to assimilate and and then you have to also you know understand so the whole process I think is great I think I think even for somebody who who has been training those for a long time you know just the [02:45] five days of theory are very very important well so we are now one month later your brain settling down or are you implementing yes things yes from my personal experience the second I came back right and what I was doing too is you know after every day of class what I was doing is I was calling my wife right I'm gonna get to that hotel and how I learned things is by writing it down and talking
[03:18] about it so um you know every every night I would come home I would talk to my wife I'd be like all right babe this is what we did today this is you know I'm just telling you the stories that that we were told the information that we were told and it helped me uh definitely assimilated more but also as I was saying this as I was saying it a second time so I was you know hearing it in the classroom is one thing and then as I say it right as I'm saying it to my wife as I'm talking about it I would [03:50] have these moments where I was like oh that's why that makes sense that's why with that dog x dog you know uh two months ago or a year ago that's why that you know that approach that I took created that result because you know the way they explained it right it makes so much sense and I think what I've found for me is I became really good at you know at understanding and learning things and also you know I [04:21] would have certain techniques to get certain um certain behaviors from dogs right I would use certain techniques and be like when I do this I get this result I like this result and I'm gonna keep doing this technique uh going through the school it was like I got the the why you know I got the this is why when you do this technique that little thing right there happens and of course it makes so much more [04:49] sense as you lay it out like you know you're putting it right in front of you going this is what happens it's just a very intellectual um you know educational experience that's one of the things that I've told I've been telling people that I've talked to about in a pop or I have a lot of people go hey you know how was school and um and the way I describe it is it's just such an intellectual um such an intellectual experience you know because you're not thinking okay here's the you know here's [05:19] a piece of food you know here's how you do this here's the timing at least that's how I assimilated the week you know for my perspective how I digested it was like that it was very intellectual it was very um um I guess intellectual is the best word I can come up with well that's also the danger that it becomes too intellectual and for that I have a nice example and I'm going to use the name yeah and the gentleman [05:51] will not be offended a few years ago we had Michael Carpenter at the silver school and the gold school Michael is a gentleman that uses his brains and then the first results of his training was the typically
[06:16] brain result it's very precise but there is no fire there is no exploration of the dog and then three four years later the gentleman is on fire on facebook and Michael and I see now a totally other approach of the same topics that means that that gentleman is now right for the next step that means [06:48] that everything did mature he did ripen it and now he can implement it much better and you see that the way he approaches now is a lot of freedom of thinking a lot of fun fun and there of course he will go too far and he will explore the fun side but he will forget the must do side but it should still look like yeah yeah yeah [07:22] so it means that that gentleman came back for silver repeat and that gentleman came back for the silver gold and Michael and Michael and David writes the repeat of silver and gold was platinum to you so we see that people must hear things over and over again and months later and years later because it takes about five years to turn around [07:56] all that theory in the practical working source and maybe Michael and I because it's about the future of the school what we do see is that we have a younger and younger public maybe because we are becoming older and older I think that's all it is not at all you guys are still young well yes and no but we see that there is a very very young public coming [08:29] and they are very very good in the theories very good because the scores go higher and higher we see that so we are amazed to see that it means that people are better and better prepared that's for sure but it's also that younger people still are good in school answering and should not stay school answering neither so the [08:54] practical side is very important and there you need that little hundreds of dogs experience different types of dogs over different years that trial and error process you cannot skip steps and that's why the future of the school is so difficult to speak about because of course Michael and I are going to stop this formula [09:28] and we're going to recreate a new formula yeah where it will be more we don't reach enough people so it's too exclusive we don't reach enough people and we are still at the age that we should reach people because we have something to bring in the plate we understand very well different techniques and try to explain people all the consequences in all different techniques
[10:01] which are very important and you must respect people in however they do that's what Michael and I try to preach and the future will be that Michael and I will do theory for much bigger quantity of people students not online because Michael and I we need [10:27] the visual contact with people we need the smell the sweat we need to to see the whole thing yeah so we are not the young generation that could teach and learn via the internet there is a need for that but we cannot yeah we are cooking on that and of course the big problem will be the practical side and in the practical side [10:55] we are thinking of pushing the clientele towards the existing gold people and of course there is then nepopo by or interpreted by will gerido nepopo interpreted by joe bop nepopo interpreted by barbara whatever so everybody has their accentuation yeah the big problem there is how do we control quality [11:27] and then what's very important this that and now I speak a little bit for the past is that Michael and I were two individuals that did meet the day that we were both singles that means that we were both divorced and by accident we did in our direction do 100 the same thing [11:55] and I was more concentrated on a sport public worldwide I was going from one rodeo show to the other where Michael had a very very successful little business in Bethesda where she was implementing all the the same techniques on the pet dogs over and over and over so it means at least five between five and ten a month [12:23] and it was amazing to see that two people that never did meet each other before do the same thing so we were experimenting with pressure stops rewarding and we were both experimenting the trial and error process in the shaping with all the consequences of positive reinforcement and all the [12:49] consequences of negative reinforcement so it was fun to see how those two strong brains work together and due to our backgrounds we could cook it in a nice nice politic palatable systems and we could speak about it because you did see we can speak one week without having one piece of paper in front of our noses [13:18] mm-hmm very impressive the last school you were not there i think you were there the the the the i think it was the second i thought it was the first one yeah maybe it was the second one i remember the last school i had a how do you call that in english the first of time in my life i did not find my words anymore how do you call that a blackout a blackout i never had that before so
[13:49] and then i realized hmm it's maybe time that we stopped because i never had blackouts in my life before never yeah and i could solve it professionally say but i said hey i have a blackout and you're gonna have it also to all the people and that's why you need the bullet points to know exactly where you will start again and you will remember at a certain point where your blackout was but there i realized that [14:22] how hard it'd be if you are for example a rock and roll singer or whatever and you sing a song and you don't know where you are anymore that must be brutal i just i never had a blackout in my life and i had it the last school so it was for me a brutal experience and i'm a good talker i tell you that i have a i have a question for you guys and uh and i know when we've talked on the phone i've [14:51] you know in the past i think i brought this up and you gave me a really good explanation for this but i think it's worth uh sort of going over it again for some of the audience because i know this is uh this is a certain way i feel about it and i think uh you know um bart you just touched on it really good when you said you know there is my interpretation right off the popo there is you know so-and-so's interpretation of the popo and here's the thing i'm a bit i'm big into into books like [15:24] you know if i if i look at a book um then i know that i i can interpret what i read in that book a certain way and so and so can interpret what they read in the book a certain way but at the end of the day the book is not going to lie um now what are you guys's thoughts on uh you know on on that on on the possibility of having some sort of layout uh that that says from both of yours perspective of [15:54] your perspectives you know you know it basically you guys writing the cookbook and going this is what napopo is you know so that the future generations don't have to worry about well you know i got an a popular training from will and i got a popular training from yours and i got a popular training from someone so uh what are your thoughts on that well that's that's a difficult thing and that's [16:20] that's part of the reason why we're still in discussions of what's going to happen but also i think it's natural because as we heard an expression lately that says that the eyes only see what the brain knows and will's eyes saw what will's brain knew and what you can make sense of and other
[16:45] people who have a different experience right background they see from their perspective and everyone thinks they're right and that's why you can read a book and that's why when you go over books in class even classics that people have a totally different view and you must keep going back what are the what are the proofs what are the proofs you see so it is a little bit but in that way [17:20] in order to keep it true it can't be all feeling it must be some real things but the the veins of the the book is a will that we had a lot of requests for that and michael and i we could write the book but that would be book number 120 000 in lines yeah and the danger of books is that it becomes too much [17:48] they said that well of course michael and bart said that but that's your interpretation and the danger of the cookbook is that people that cannot cook buy a book and start cooking yeah and think they are chefs right so it is it is not like that neither so it means that and also we change things yes very right as things happen we've we we you evolve all we evolve it's yeah we [18:19] don't teach the same things now that we did five years ago yeah yeah for sure for example the people that were in the school the nepo post schools in the beginning they saw that our accentuation was a lot on shaping and that the accentuation was a lot of free thinking they did not see that we also implement the [18:44] command to do so you tell the whole thing and you accentuate everything but they take something out that is for them very specifically yes that's amazing to see how what michael says that the brain only catches what the eye already i know that the eyes only to see what the brain already knows but also with [19:10] our experience and we knew what people were catching and what people were commonly missing you see what i mean we changed our emphasis because we only have to emphasize it a little bit but we know that people will glom onto it so then we say be careful not you know so experience is so important so what we did see is that in the beginning of our neapropos schools too much people did think that it was forbidden by law to lure a dog [19:43] well it's not forbidden luring a dog is a very well-known classical system that works very well but you must also know the other side which is let the dog find out and you must experiment in both techniques and that's quite important that people yes try to learn that you know so try to come and learn yourself
[20:09] open yourself for the techniques where you're not good at you must not come to become better in what you are already good at try to become better in a thing that you are not at all good at so it will make you stronger and stronger and stronger it's like for example michael and i did purchase a fantastic dog in belgium a few months ago tom he's not his extreme food driven extreme prey driven extreme good biter he [20:39] does not see the environment he does not see it because he's so on it and that good dog is a problem for most dog trainers and just now he starts to become free thinking without doing dumb shit in the beginning when you gave him freedom he was going in jail immediately because he did do all the things that are not allowed so so it's it's it's amazing to see how you non-stop must change into your [21:10] training systems and add a little bit baby stuff that the dog did not learn and you know we don't have a dagger on our throat the job must be finished we have the dog as long as we want and we have fun with him by the way you remember that he was peeing in his kennel in his crate yes that it is over so we did put the hot wire around the whole thing we did hit him twice and never [21:39] did hit him again and now he can pee and he can poo where he has to do but it was always used to do whenever he does it so michael and i we like a modern dog that is clean that does not stink that is brushed and yes if you receive an animal that was grown up in the wild bush or what can we say i mean the dog does know what's good or no good but it was not working with only nice positive methods we have [22:09] to put aversive steam on the thing so i mean it's amazing and he became a totally other dog due to that now he pays attention he looks to me he's begging he never did that so but we have him now six months we don't have him one week because if you have him one week the only thing you can do is give pressure pressure stops and now you get your extra reward is it a piece of art no it's just basic training but [22:40] dogs can do much more that's what we like to tell people you know so and that's why michael's it's such a nice little animal you cannot believe she is yeah she is so level-headed so nice yeah and and it's it's fun to have dogs like that and once you have dogs like that you're thinking yourself why are not all dogs straight like that it's so fun you know but the future of the school is so
[23:08] important to us because at the end it's also a big big big business model because mike and i could say instead of ne popo we could say it's the manager training because we train people to become managers a lot of managers and a lot of managers from very big companies should learn basic consequences again [23:39] because that's all we do in our company baby consequences because we don't use too much complicated manager theory just doc training that we implement on people but on human scale and be as involved as you need to but not too too involved like be do just as much as needed yes yes yes one big thing that i got out of school yes yes and make [24:07] sure that the whole thing works without you being there that's the whole point so it's like michael's dog you can leave her alone she will do nothing she will do no dumb because she learned to do in her free time she learned to not abuse the free time and you see what i mean so it's it's a it's a dog [24:34] that fits in the whole thing and the other guy you leave him in the house you come back after five minutes you say where's my television where are my doors for the home well typically and if you work with people it's the same if you work with people you must be able to go away otherwise it's hard to train them it's hard to work with them what can i say well it's a little bit like uh going back to michael carpenter again he just got a new puppy and he's laying foundations in very broad strokes a [25:04] little bit of this a little bit of food in the box a little bit of sniff work a little bit of finding a little bit so he's making the attitude and the dog is finding everything building confidence in themselves problem solving so it's it's very it's very inspirational and making the attitude of the dog what he wants later instead of just doing luring and yeah glowing instead of micromanaging [25:32] yeah instead of micromanaging exactly instead of micromanaging so that the dog totally needs him to do everything yes he's making it so that it's it's it's very impressive to see it and of course well you know that in the business you don't always have time to train a dog like that in the business you have the time clock against you you only have two or three weeks to perform you cannot go in that way
[26:03] it's impossible it's what we teach in the school in the school we say well you need so much repetitions you must go negative reinforcement and at the end you give food basic food and that works which is ne popo but it's not a piece of art that you will give and you will give back the owner a dog that is well controllable [26:30] dog that is controllable and that's very important so and in a minimum of time you do a maximum of job dog because that's the thing that you must be able to do as a dog trainer what is the type of dog i have what is the time frame i have to go to the basic behaviors which is pet dog training and so on and so on and then are my clients able to control which type of dog because not everybody can control a dog [27:02] that will garido can control or that might control or that i can control so i'm i'm always amazed to see and it makes michael and me happy my daughter is back in business so in this training dogs again nice yes and her husband too and her husband is on finance yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so it makes us very happy and i already know the results of the dogs that in it makes very innovative creative [27:32] dogs and then they must come in the hands of a person like me that squeeze the last five percent and then you have the fantastic performing dog that is innovative creative works on cue it's a fantastic dog but you must be able to do that last five percent i cannot do the first 95 i'm not good at that that's why it's hard to be it's like in the in the [27:59] talent code when they talk about the math it's different depending on where you are in the spectrum of the dog's life right so bart's speciality is that last part and enos's speciality is that first part yes for sure yes and the thing is is that you can't train a dog that's a little puppy the way that bart does the last five percent you can't do that and you can't do the last five percent [28:29] the way enos trains her little puppy you see what i mean so when one person has the dog for the life of the dog that's another speciality that you're able to switch gears and yeah be you know you let the little puppy be um naughty and steal things and you get me and that you're able to tighten that up as it goes yeah one thing one big thing that i got out of the school too is um you know when i when i was learning
[29:00] how to train dogs and this is sort of the the theme as i was you know learning and progressing in my dog training career was you know this constant advice and i and i myself have been guilty of giving the same advice which is you know make sure it's always perfect and make sure it's always perfect and don't let the dog mess up and don't let the dog mess up and and there's certainly some value to that [29:26] and it made sense from from a perspective then um but then you know again going back to that very philosophical intellectual week you know at silver uh where you guys encouraged mistakes not that you set up the dog for failure that's different but the the the liberty to just the freedom to just say these are the options you can you can make you can choose those options right and that that has been [29:58] great um you know to to hear that it's like learning a language too at first you make a lot of mistakes but it's the speaking that's the most important part it's the speaking and if you are always correcting always correcting always correcting there's no more speaking right that's where we go to the micromanaging yes versus yeah here are your parameters speak well and once everything then you can and once they like [30:25] to speak then you can tighten it up but in the beginning you see the the beginning coach has a totally different job that's one thing that that i can definitely see myself implementing a little bit more with my with my club dogs you know in my in my protection club is when we do scenarios especially with psa level two stuff there are surprise scenarios so sometimes we come up with scenarios right there [30:50] on the spot and you know we have club today and uh you know one of our club does one of our club members we set up a new scenario and we could have made it super super impossible for the dog to fail um but we're like you know what let him sort of figure it out you know and just let him work it out let him be independent and let him work it out obviously the dog worked it out it was a successful [31:16] session um but you know the the me maybe even a year ago i would have been like you know even months ago i've been like no no let's make it perfect let's make it so that it is 100 successful whereas now you know i feel like i got permission and encouragement to go no it's it's okay for the dog to screw up a little bit let him make the choices and let him sort of learn through self-exploration which is one of the
[31:46] big things that i got at you know silver so that was that was a different concept that i think a lot of dog trainers don't hear enough well it's like the classic school says pressure only stops at perfection an extra reward only comes the positive reward at perfection i was thinking like you in the beginning but the more older i become and the same with michael the more we love that little trial and error we [32:18] like them to make their own wrong choices but their wrong choice should not be gratifying it should not making them happy you see what i mean right that's important because if the wrong choice is run behind the cats and they can kill the cats and become a killer that's not what we want right right right but it's like i come out of a variable game like psa i come out of ring sport in ring sport we also have [32:49] the same scenarios of the day and in the old days we also were thinking like the dog can only do very and must very fast do what we tell him to do that means in the jumping we did put big fences beside the jumps that the dog could not go around and the jump was lower so that the dog could only take the easy solution now we leave it open and we tell the dog well if you go around there will be no food for [33:21] example and why is there no food because you don't hear a click and later when it goes around he will feel the little discomfort tap tap tap tap on very low levels and so on and so on but and slowly the dog will manage into a very confident jumper but you can only become a very confident jumper by making the mistakes the same thing in the old days we put a piece of wood away and our dog had to search with the [33:51] nose and send identification was the exercise and of course we had no clue what we were doing so we did put nails in all the wrong piece of wood so that the dog did feel instead of smelling smelling and later we were verbally cute no no no when he was wrong and later we did not verbally cute we did tap on wrong [34:18] all the we did we don't do that anymore because even by tapping the bottom the dog feels he's wrong and then instead of sniffing he's feeling wrong wrong wrong it means nothing that means i'm right so and certainly in the scent work and scent work is a beautiful thing but to go back to the school and i'm right so i'm right so i'm right so i'm right so i'm right so i'm right so i'm right so
[34:45] don't ask us what it is it's not uh we'll wait i'll stay tuned a big missing link will be the hospitality from jackie and her team because we know that that is i don't say 50 but it's a lot of success of the school people breakfast together lunch together dinner together have one two drinks together sitting on the campfire together it's a very important part of bonding that we cannot copy [35:18] in a on bigger scale it's impossible so that we do lose that that linking networking that typically sympathy of i see what you're saying together so that's the point where we are still cooking on maybe it will be in a big hotel where people could sit together [35:43] we still don't know we still don't know and then we are thinking of inventing games in virtual world which is very expensive we cannot specify more but we think that we have the baggage the luggage to create it we just have to find designers that can make what we think and then you [36:09] speak very fast in a budget that normal people can cannot pay even for us it's hard yeah it's hard it's like minimum 500 000 euros yeah that's not even for everything that's like for the first level and basic basic design and so that people and especially people from all over the world can go to the napo po games positive reinforcement napo po game negative reinforcement double reinforcement [36:41] and then they will be pushed to higher scales and then for example at a certain point the system will tell them hey you ready now please go and find the napo for gold trainer and so on and so on so we are cooking something like that but you see a lot of people really learned a lot from doing the roll games at the school oh yeah yeah doing it and uh and just watching it do be but like you said earlier like [37:07] being there smelling you know seeing you know the the reaction of the person um you know the watching the person struggle you know all of those subtle things that are that are very very important hey by the way do you remember the e-color up from your school yes you know what the last school did do it in [37:34] 45 minutes and they did they solved the whole thing really yeah 45 minutes we were so amazing it was not fun to watch it then anymore we have no fun anymore because the fun we have is as you know we have the cameras there we were sitting in front of the television and we were laughing our asses off how people start to act you know but the last class it was no fun at all king thing thing thing
[38:01] like machine guns they went through it that is insane yeah it's the first class ever though first first class ever it was the last time and the people that did know did not help because wow yeah husband of my daughter is very good at that he did not help right and my daughter knows the e-color very well she did not help there were a few other people that know very well that did not help so it came [38:26] out of other sites so we were very impressed yeah yeah yeah very impressed that is that is interesting there was even a person that scored 100 can you imagine that you told me that a hundred percent 100 i'm i'm i'm telling him my god yeah that that was amazing yeah well that's impressive i i remember [38:51] him i think he was the third student i asked to the front to speak the as you know we always ask and he's good he's very good he's a good bullshitter well he's a speaker he's a professional speaker i did not know that yeah he's a professional speaker and it shows that's impressive yeah the gentleman has three million followers yeah and he does holy smokes yeah but i did not know it's a celebrity i said hey [39:20] you good you're born to do this right and he's like well i get paid to do it holy who was it not tony robbins right no no no no no no no we will not name his name because we don't know i get it i get it i get it there is people that are bloody good yeah he is really good and then my daughter came to me and my daughter was never good at the school and she said to me daddy i hate him he's so [39:47] good i hate him that's her way to be pissed that somebody's better you know and there i recognized my old little ines i said well well well well well the apple is not falling far from the tree but she doesn't mean yeah she just met she's very impressed with him yes she's very impressed she said how can you do that yeah it was yeah you know some people are very very good at answering questions and speaking [40:16] and but he was very good in the role game yeah he was he was good in everything and listening and speaking and understanding what he said and just all around smart guy yeah well we did even hear that instead of watching television at their place they played the role games every day the whole family can you imagine that to create active brains to create a problem solving thing
[40:44] it's amazing that yeah that that gentleman implements that and then he told me and mike and i do that when you have a lot of dogs you want them to pee on command when you walk them so and a lot of dogs they learn when i pee i must go back in my kennel and that's why they don't pee and that's why they don't [41:12] poo and that's why mark and i we when the dog drinks we count how many times how many licks he drinks so if the dog licks 100 licks of water and peace only two seconds there is something wrong that dog must minimum pee 30 or 40 seconds one two three even on two three different uh i see what you're saying yeah okay yeah so and that gentleman said well if my dog is not peeing i tap the button on the lowest [41:43] level to make him pee and i said well we do that since 20 30 years and our mothers they do the same when i was a little kid my mother told me hey bart hey bart did you pee i want to see you see yes and the same mothers do with the little guy must poo on the little body called the little poddy when the whole family went for travel bart did you pee yeah let me see did you poo yeah let me see [42:12] come on yeah mothers did do it and still do it today why can we not do it with dogs right but on low levels it's uh hey you must but it's not it's like a go yeah come on come on yeah yeah come on let's go let's go let's go but people lose their see people will lose some people lose their minds over that over the idea of doing that [42:39] well well then they see people who do it too high and then of course it comes back in instead of going out yeah you know one thing that i really liked about uh you know the end of the really the entire week but one thing that struck that struck me was you know i was i went into school thinking oh you know this is you know i'm gonna i'm gonna learn this and and this is gonna become like this one system that i'm gonna be [43:09] really really really glued to but the one thing that i really liked and i found very very powerful was when uh when michael said towards the end of the week i think it was friday when she said you know other systems can work too you know we're not saying anything anything against any other system other systems can work too if you know what you're doing um and also prior to that uh also one of the
[43:42] things that that you guys told us was you know if this doesn't work if you know if shaping doesn't work then you can do this you can do the old nipopo right uh and also if if the dog is not eating one thing that michael said too is that the dog is not eating you can't just starve the dog then then at that point it's abuse and so what i really liked about it was you know the message that i got was you know [44:09] this is the system but it's not basically no it's not religion you know there is there are different approaches that are good um and and i like that it wasn't very polarizing i like that it was very uh um you know yeah this system works but look that guy doing it over there their way you know that works for them and if if they're happy then we're happy which is what i think sometimes people think [44:42] the opposite about the purple some people that don't know about the purple think oh you know it's it's the kool-aid you're gonna drink the kool-aid don't drink the kool-aid but but there is no cool thing about it it was very uh you know this is the system look that guy doing it his way that's been doing it for a while he's successful and he's happy and you know that that works great just like you guys were saying earlier you know luring you can lord that's the that's the way to do it [45:09] um so it was it was good to to hear that from uh you know from both of you that that that it was it i'm having a hard time explaining it well it's whatever works for you and your dog right that's important thing it's not uh it's there's not a recipe there's not a one size fits all it's you have to see and feel and well they ask a lot of times how do you learn healing well with what dog with what [45:39] dog we have a lot of different ways to learn healing i mean the way bart is teaching healing to tom is different than i thought healing to jack it's different how we do it with other dogs so i we should put the camera on the work with tom to show people how to open the maximum capacity of a dog but it's dangerous work that i do there so we don't want to go in publicity because if we do one mistake [46:09] and it's not because the dog wants to buy this but it's so brutal and on he would snap your finger in prey not in aggression right he wants his prey and if you make one mistake you have a big problem but it's of course it's it's a special way of working that dog because all the rest is not too much his thing and you must waking up a little bit with a bamboo bam bam bam and then he starts to really wake up
[46:36] but you must know how to kick him gently so it's another type of dog so and if you do that with a normal dog they run away but if if you work with him with the the classic methods of rewarding i give you one kid he falls asleep he doesn't care like right now ragnar was the same so and you must understand one dog is not another and that's why and as you know from profession i was a sport teacher [47:06] years ago france which is not belgium france had and they still have the fantastic soccer team and they became world champ of course with fantastic players like zinedine zidane but the trainer was a certain emil jacket and emil jacket had a psychological profile from every player in those days that was [47:33] unique and he knew exactly lisa razu was the left left winger it was a nice family guy not to speak within five minutes and now your wife and i want your kids five minutes social talking and the guy was playing and then there were other players that you had to put on the bench don't play in just the big game you say hey big mouth on the field show what you can so he and he it was very interesting to see [48:04] what the psychological game the trainer did play with his players but he became world champion so and that's fantastic so and it's a little bit nepple po it's a psychological game with your dog hey you right it is like the game we play with the students it's a whole name game it's a psychological game that's happening in the school it's brutal and at the end come on you knew that it's brutal how people take the [48:35] sufferances it's brutal yeah yeah the men must go on the port-a-potty well there's one lady that was this one lady she wrote to me she said when she got to the school she was like i i was thinking to myself i paid for this i paid for this suffering i remember i remember when i when i got there and on day one you guys were like there's going to be a test every day and then you were like in friday there's [49:04] going to be a final written test and the minimum score has to be 90 and when you guys said that i was immediately like i was like wow this is serious and then the very first time that you call something you're like a randomly you get up on the get up in front of the in front of the classroom talk about this for two minutes and like every day i was like oh my god what if what if next time it's me
[49:30] you know i was like oh my god like the next test and i need to get ready for this test and uh you know and it makes sense you know that little bit of pressure uh definitely makes makes you a little bit sharper it makes you go i really have to pay attention here you you can't just sit here and uh and enjoy the the week you're enjoying it but but you have to like you have to be sure i enjoyed it i enjoyed it like friday i was like i can't believe it's over [49:57] i really was i was like i was like so sad when it was friday what people must remember out of this is that you must have a whip in teaching you need a whip without whip it become holiday on ice party right there's no seriousness people come too late there's no seriously they come and just have fun it's also important but you must go home with knowledge also right yeah and it's trying to find [50:26] that perfect balance between discipline and freedom of thinking concentration motivation and that's what it is about yes it's the exactly it's getting that getting that perfect balance one thing that i that i found kind of funny too is and i felt bad putting him on the spot saying this but um i remember this one that i think it was day two or day three one of the students um was like really late really really [50:54] late i forgot his name but he he walks in right and uh it's it's in the middle of something i forget i think i think michael you were trying to work on the uh questions on the um you were trying to work on the on the the food dispenser with uh you know we're trying to figure that out so he walks in and he's like really late right he walks in and i'm thinking wow it must be embarrassing for me to walk in when [51:20] everybody's quiet and and michael looks at him he goes welcome and i thought oh that was definitely a bit of a whip right there it was a nice subtle like well you know a nice little whip on that for being late you're gonna and obviously you know i get it things happen but you're gonna see that they will that to manage a group you sorry about that i don't know what happened back in town okay it looks like our [51:54] celebrity our celebrity student who speaks so well was watching oh nice we'll see if he makes himself known but oh my god he's really nice yeah sounds like it sounds like a nice guy oh yeah but anyway sorry you were saying that uh when you manage a large group of people there must be rules i think that's where we left off
[52:24] yeah it's very important and we learned that over the years that what michael and i do in the old days it was going every week from one seminar to the other it's a type of entertainment where seminar hoppers come and enjoy the day and there you can't put too many rules because there's no wit and it was not easy to control that and it gives a lot of stress yeah and [52:58] by doing the nepo post school by implementing rules the society becomes much easier for everybody yeah everybody knows exactly this are the hours where we work these are the free time moments and it's the job from michael and me to catch people during the work because as a teacher you must be a [53:25] catchy person if you lose students you do something wrong and that's why we like so much life on stage that means that you see immediately when somebody is fading away falling asleep falling asleep bored with what you're saying and you don't see that if you come with a powerpoint presentation with your back to the people you don't sleep in the dark who falls asleep you miss that interaction and the same thing you [53:55] can have on online coaching on the whole group you don't see who's picking his nose you don't see all that that we're in that group you're in that group non-stop can watch it and you have a very good feedback anyway the whole topic was the future of the school so my and i are working very hard on that concept and we don't go over one night of ice if needed we will bring one year or two years of break [54:25] but when we come with something it will be something where our input will be the theory and the practical work will go to the existential gold people where we must find maybe it'll just be workshops for example yeah where we must find and in a free market economy where if real does good job people will come back [54:57] and if real does not do good job people will not come back and if real does a good job but is not very people-minded people will not come back neither so the profile of the person is quite unique you know and the thing is yeah so it's also people are going to be looking at our website for people who teach napo because they want to learn napo
[55:26] po you know you're not if you teach something else but you have a napo book you know then it's a little bit problematic you cannot believe how many questions we receive to continue teaching you cannot believe i can imagine i mean people are very interested well the future of the school we are working on that and that's michael and i that cook something together with our business advisor so we have very good [55:58] business advisors they are great people and we never go over one night of ice and the same thing is the future of the company and the company martin system that's another topic which is a very strong and unique project when the school and martin system company stay together so it's a very unique profile where [56:23] big truck companies are dreaming about because i remember that in the old days i was pro stuff for the innotech brand innotech like a company that has been sold to radio systems and in those days at innotech we have pro stuff and pro stuff were people that were more than just product endorsers they were also [56:49] telling the nice theory about dog training so we have a good team of very motivated people but at the end i remember the the sales manager steve gill we had no budget and i said steve we need a budget he said bart people are going to pay for knowledge are you kidding me well you guys must understand this in europe people don't pay for knowledge they don't pay for school [57:18] you don't pay for school so americans have a payment mindset to go to school european right right so me as a european i was thinking huh people paying for knowledge about dog training that's not possible and i did not believe that but slowly i did implement it and yes even europeans were paying for [57:43] knowledge i was nearly falling down from my chair by seeing that and slowly it did grow so the whole world now is ready for paying for dog training and what brainers generally must understand is that they work for the public that can pay because the owner that has a dog that is not behaving that owner works [58:10] and that owner has no time to train their own dog and that's why they need a professional so what dog trainers must understand is that they should not be cheap they should do the best job they can and that their customers do have money and they should be customer oriented very customer oriented give the best service and do the best job and be in the animal welfare and absolutely where it's a win-win where the customer has their advantage and the person has their advantage that's the best
[58:45] that's the best and that a little bit goes back to the school with us setting up a future school is that you know bart and i are older and we do not want to be we don't want to do inspections we don't want to be supervisors we don't want to be cops we don't want to police things we don't want it we don't want that that's why we never had seminars with anyone else we we like to do our own thing and it becomes hard to control when you have so many people and they have their own opinions and they have their own [59:20] you know you don't want to get into that so that's why it's been nice we teach the school we teach the silver we teach the gold you go home what you know and what you say is your business it may not be what we say it may be what we say we don't know but we don't have to check it's not our responsibility and we don't want to take that on because some people do and some people don't i mean [59:48] and at the end it's the public that is your judge huh if you do something well people come back and if there's something wrong people stay away it's easy like that the end consumer is not stupid and it depends who you're who your consumer is too you you have bob marley that did sing a song you can fool some people sometimes you cannot fool all the people all the time it's a very strong sentence [60:18] you know so the end consumer is not stupid even when they don't know dog training don't think that they are stupid and they evaluate and they value that you are picking up the dog with a nice car that you bring the dog that you go to the vet with the dog that you do a veterinarian check of picking up and bringing back the whole halalala people want yeah people want to see their dogs well taken care of [60:44] you being very honest with them and their dog returning with a happy attitude yes what they're supposed to do that's what people want yeah anyway it's a big big big future for dog training professional dog trainers the market is so big you cannot believe and you cannot live so it's you need a good living as a dog trainer because it's a very hard profession and [61:26] if you take too many dogs and you want to do it very well it's a 24 non-stop job seven on seven 30 on 30 365 days a year so you must find the balance between a certain quantity of dogs and the quality of training that you can do because of course they don't pay for one year so you try to find a nice balance there and that's what mike and i try to teach people hey i think that before we are boring to the
[62:00] people people people yeah well i'm having a good time well it's important i don't know if you did see that i did post little things about bite work and that's my little battle horse i know something about bite work and there maybe we're gonna do something in the future [62:25] you know what i'm doing in the future because a bite is not a bite and out is not out and these are things that people should learn and there for the moment there is a lot of mumbo jumbo going around which we don't agree with and before that i'm senile i can still bring something in the plate about bite work because people must understand that there is [62:55] difference between barking and barking and that there is a hobby person that likes to go in competition well that hobby person must be able to control the level of training they can control the dog can do better but can people do better that's the question so the message is be careful training dogs in aggression be careful be careful be careful be careful by making dogs biting in aggression because you must still [63:27] be able to out them and to control them off it's yes so it's it's it's it's so nice and there we should do something i still don't know what but there the experience could bring a lot a lot and i see so much things where i think my god would you tell them that right and then what i'm always amazed to [63:54] see is that beginners always want to go to the most flashy things immediately it's like yes yes they want to be the black belt karate but they don't want to be the white belt they don't want to be yellow belts they don't want to be the green belt or whatever they immediately want to do the black belt the deadly kicks it's not like dance it's not like that it's a slow evolution and it's already hard enough to [64:20] control a dog in prey it's already hard enough and there's so much things that we could speak about and maybe another podcast podcast one day because there we give everything we have and send identification the big future nose work and bite work and let's speak and that's things where michael and i like to [64:49] speak about for example i remember we did sell a dog and the name was bart der niederlande flip and that dog became twice dvg champ and that dog was trained on the dog trophy barking healing everything and the whole german population was laughing what are like those idiots doing until the idiots that did buy the dog were on the highest poduster and they were winning
[65:22] and then what people must understand is that of course it starts in prey but when dogs and play but when dogs don't receive the rewards that they are used they start to be pissed frustration which without that is cool aggression will come yeah there you are working in aggression by not doing reactive aggression the aggression is coming out of the dog when the dog is ready for it and these are things that we should [65:51] like to tell the whole world but that's maybe another podcast okay we tried a little bit to talk about that at the school but it's more of a practical it's work it's like yeah we can we can set something up for sure it could be a series you know whichever way you guys want to do it it it's like if you watch and the my preferred exercise from the dutch program the knpv is the barking on the box [66:18] the dogs are barking on that thing with so much aggression and that dog that box is not whipping the dog one time the dog that box is not moving one time the box is not nothing how can that stupid box attract the dog so much that's the question and it's a very interesting point to see dogs barking for more than two minutes on a piece of wood that does not move with the aggression that you never see that is a whoa [66:48] i thought another head that's training yes that's what you must analyze and that's fun to understand instead of uh instead of the chicky chicky cha right yes well the sticky cheeky chaka it's it's i call it karate kung fu online it's very nice to watch but at the end it's not effective and if you make people happy it's okay at the end it's okay i have no problem with that i as a young guy was also [67:20] liking the most but the older you become the more you say i think that were moves for the movie industry instead of being for the dog industry but it's very interesting to see that evolution of those dogs barking on that box it's yeah that is interesting maybe watch all that if you analyze that you say whoa what do we do with our dogs that we cannot copy that and that's an old technique that [67:50] still works very well so how can dogs barge two minutes non-stop on that piece of wood in the woods with an aggression from another planet and then when you call them off they are so pissed that you call them off that they like to do re-aggression on handler and if you come too close to that box there is competition on the box and they say whoa you both stay away from my box and so on and so on if you
[68:16] analyze that then you understand a lot of spontaneous aggression coming out of frustration hi gabriel and uh it's fantastic so that's what we should like to bring in the pot and the outing it's like recently i had a friend calling me and saying hey bart michael we have a dog uh usa police dog that by searching for [68:45] marijuana and we put different boxes the dog is attacking the boxes what can we do to say well what's the background of the dog and then it seems that there was kmpv training on the dog and of course they learn that and inviting it viciously i have seen dogs like that that do send detection that were imported from holland yeah of course we call that uncontrolled aggression but that's the training that [69:12] brings to that and if you don't know that you say huh what's going on here and there the experience that we have can help a lot so it's like the old doctor that sits on his chair in the old days when you went to a doctor they said don't smoke but they were smoking big cigars and they were telling you don't drink and they were having a zip on their whiskey in their practice when they were practicing but you came in the door and the way you look to them they said well you need vitamin d and that [69:42] it's that little experience over 10 000 times deja vu yeah and that's another thing that is very important in doctrine is that working different types of dogs working different types of dogs for example in the last school we had a service dog that was with this gentleman and doesn't move typically [70:07] service dog and the gentleman asks us should we bring that dog to the gold school well that dog can be brought to the gold school if that gentleman opens the other side of the dog that means that the service jacket goes off yeah and with another cue we now do fun work because a dog needs to have a balance in the life but the owner must understand that if he cues his dog to be a service dog it's don't [70:37] move don't move and don't move and only move when needed but at the other side dogs should be a little bit dog also so when you take the work jacket off there should be maybe a little bit free time that i don't find the balance in the heads i don't know that gentleman can come with the school with that dog if he's prepared to open the other side of the dog otherwise he's losing his time we cannot make a better
[71:04] service though you already does it perfectly you must as a good student you must try to open the sites where you're not so good at try to be open for hey now i must open my other side it's like people are very good in clicker training perfect consequences for doing consequences for not doing good you're good at that now try to become a good negative reinforcement trainer try to understand that [71:34] and now you're good at that now you combine your both systems and have harmony at the same time that's of course for example i'm a guy from the old school i'm very very very good at negative reinforcement very good and negative reinforcement can become a reinforcer of the command and it can become a correction in the same language so me 15 years ago i opened the site i was not good at because it was the [72:05] positive reinforcement training and that's very powerful also so you can only become better by opening the sites that you are not good at or that you did not know about because for me it was more we didn't we were not informed because positive training was for sissies so and we did not understand it so it was against our mother language but that's why we tried to sell everybody try to open the [72:34] sites that you are not used to otherwise coming to the school to do what you're good at hey right right what's the point right well we can make you one or two percent better but what's the point try to hate try to open the sites on which you are not good at and so on and so on well in your whole life and and in training your dog it's the same thing to to get that foundation the whole thing you have to [73:01] not just work at what the good dog is good at not just do healing all day but now you do jumping maybe he's not so good at jumping or maybe he's not so very biting or maybe he's not so good at finding for example what we could do is we give tom our new dog to one of our students that will come and tell him and we have a guy in our mind and tell him learn tom to track igp with the indirect reward of the food [73:28] machine okay he did he reacts very well so we're gonna supercharge that machine and that gentleman can do that with that dog why not so these are these are things that people must learn people are good in tracking by putting food in every step okay now we're gonna track without food in every step now we do
[73:55] indirect reward click rewards you and so on and so on try don't be afraid and if you up the dog well it's tom our dog no problem he is unfuckable i mean what do you do wrong by tapping the dude button wrong no problem no problem so that's what we try to tell people another lady and we're gonna name her name antonia mergova is doing fantastic work we remember that lady [74:28] coming at the school she had special dogs that nobody wants if you see how far she'd bring those dogs it's amazing is it the highest yeah no it's not but we know where the dogs are coming from it's fantastic what she does and then we see the evolution that that lady does in three years time the way that she thinks so we are watching from far but [74:54] that's imagination yes yes and she dares to do and it makes it and she has she dares to do mistakes and she dares to show me space to the whole world it's fantastic it's that's ballsy yes yes so and we we don't like to name people too much but these two people that we did just named were people that over the years became better and better by turning the page and by becoming another [75:25] type of trainer it's fantastic yeah yeah evolving yeah I think well that we must close otherwise we sit here and we like old people like old people that we don't see that everybody's asleep whenever it's time in two months the bike work thing yes working yes okay I'm on board it was a pleasure it's always a [75:52] pleasure talking to you guys I'm not one last question a couple of people I've been asking me I but I want to make sure that I that you guys are okay with this too is it okay if if I take the the live that we just did and post it if you post it uncut we have yes okay you have a problem with that okay or you can just go on the YouTube channel very similar to the way the last you know the last interview [76:21] we did months ago where I just posted it on YouTube that way can people you know check back on it and yeah I want to edit it we like interviews like we did now unprepared we love it no in which direction it goes we go with the flow we call that yeah spontaneous it's just spontaneous yeah no the topic the top topic we knew what that was but we did not speak too much about that but we did [76:49] handle it a little bit and what we should like to tell the whole world is be careful with podcasts and everything where in this case I know exactly what I speak about Michael knows exactly we did not offend nobody mm-hmm we did not offend nobody we were not brutal to nobody and nothing can be taken out of context nothing so be
[77:17] careful by doing things like that because there is always one enemy ready to cut off your throat yes always yes and that's why we like it life that if somebody takes it and cuts it that other people can prove and say hey it was not like that mm-hmm and then imagine that you ask now permission but somebody else like you know what can we do right that's true so thanks for asking it's very important for me no [77:49] problem Michael no problem thank you Michael thank you Bart we speak well thank you guys it was a pleasure thanks for listening and we'll see you guys in the next one yeah we go let Michael's little black dog bite nice okay nice hey guys take care bye everybody bye DOGTRAININGISMYPASSION 20 Dec 2021 20 Dec 2021 - Michael & Bart Bellon Interview - DOGTRAININGISMYPASSION William Garrido