Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 16: Mia Skogster

and then my dog was two years old when we finally had this Belgian Shepherd meeting and and then I found there like trainers who did like searching and obedience and igp and we started all of those things and it was very clear that this stock wouldn't be like highly talented for igb because it was Shoreline derivirin but I trained him to become like a working champion in a certain rescue sport we have similar obedience than igp but then there was of course no protection part and then I really really wanted to have a German Shepherd again or a Malinois and then I found like a really really cool models like out of like while the bottle and say still about you know those yes boys yeah and I'm like I'm gonna have a dog from this combination and so on and so that's like how it really started and and when I got like Helga I knew immediately when he was a puppy that this dog is like like like this stock can't become a world champion and that's my dream if I can do that so I'm gonna hopefully I'm not forgetting my questions because I'm gonna have to sorry my long answer it was so no I really this is what I this is what people want to hear so when was that time when you realize that you actually are really good at what you're doing when I was standing next to you in the podium 2007 in World Championships I was the vice world champion you were the world champion and I was like come on I'm here with like Legends like Ivan is right next to me and there was like Mario versus on the other side he was a former I think triple world champion or something and I was like between you and I'm like my dream has come true and if I never ever in my life achieve anything nobody can take this moment away from me because we have this picture of the podium that exact picture I have it in my training room and we were talking about it about like a special time and you change my special moment because it it really is a much more special than becoming the world champion like we cannot take away world champion is a world champion and yeah especially when you do it twice or three times it's not a you know one-time hit like you always you do it right but I always used to think that it's a that was my high high moment becoming the world champion and after talking to you about the that moment that you're on the podium and for me that was the same like I you totally changed my thinking because that was uh when I got second time second place at the world championship next to notebooks and and coming from the states it was like okay we're here right so that's cool um now you mentioned about Helga what uh what does it make like we we know like

we I mean we've been training for a month here we I remember us being in Finland in 1am enough I don't know freezing cold winter time out talking dogs and doing healing I don't know if you remember this yeah I mean just that's what we do right but what make how do we decide how do you decide that what what do you feel when you see a dog as you said with Helga and it's like okay no he he has everything that potential right and there is there is so I think it's a package but for you how do you I know it's a feeling but what is it more yeah I think it's like uh when we have like a dog that you see that it's very talented in protection it has like it has the self-confidence it has the Poise it has the um braveness it has the Courage the grips uh the the motivation the enthusiasm to do this work and then also that I think the one important part is for me that the dog has like self-control you know that he's like Balance dog because I think that if we really want to reach like like like excellent results from competition to competition we want to have a reliable dog so it must have also like uh like very very balanced character if it's like two he has to see the picture correctly not just go in one extreme right yeah because it's too extreme dog too low self-control the environmental stress can affect on the dog performance I think that that you know there are a lot of people different helpers noise all things are like different than in your training but if you have balanced stock it can ignore this kind of distractions and often the dogs who are like extremely fast extremely like um like explosive they let the environmental stress affect themselves more so I kind of like search more for balance stocks and I think it's like that's the one thing also that we have the connection with the dog that we feel that you know I think that's also important but but also I believe that we can build if we are good trainer or speak and feels like amazing connection with different types of dogs and when you have a how do you remember how old was he when you were like I I really think we are doing this together I think um kind of like I heard all the time the feeling since he was like like like a little bit all the time like since he was three months old when he first time took like a hard sleeve and he was a little puppy and he was carrying it really proud and I was like you know that yeah like a king and I'm like like this is the dog what I have been wishing for but but of course like um um I think after the like of course like the real thing uh it came like too more and more all the time I think when we have some some

struggles in tracking and when we were able to solve those struggles there it was mainly because of my own you know training skills and and the training what I did before for him but when we when we when we fixed those and he did his first igp one I think it was very clear that this would be a dog that I can I can succeed but still you know like until we really leads this baseball Champion you know uh results that it's a lot of questions yes and then it was really like this really has come now true what about the maturity like because like what uh what I where I want to go and help some at least some of the people that listen to the podcast I and I don't know what your take on this is but I find that there's this really strange fine line to make the decision if that dog's gonna make it or not and sometimes we need to wait and sometimes we are too quick to to say no that's not a good deal absolutely right and and I see a lot of dogs that we just didn't recognize that they were just not ready at the moment and we didn't give them time or on the other extreme people get stuck with a dog that just cannot take him where they want to go yeah but you know I think it's very interesting because like uh like with Helga he had like a medium food drive or not that super high he was also more calm dog so he wasn't anyhow talented for food obedience also my skills were not super and so but you know uh I could for sure like nowadays train him better also with food but however he wouldn't be a dog that would look like awesome in obedience like with food he like he said to the bloom immediately when I like changed from food to pray when he was like one year old and I did then like three steps healing and reward three steps healing and reward something like this when he was like 12 months old he couldn't do any more and I think this is um you know I think that people are too focused on how good the dog looks with with food you know how active the dog is like how much you know energy he puts for the food and that is not so important if you really look like it's just a transition state right yes yes we don't need like a extremely food motivated dog to make great results and so I think that is something I think the first kind of like typical mistake what people think they are like oh that's a super dog who can do like Super Active healing with food and and and I just like with with a like with um like with uh all of my looks but uh healthy also like need a lot of time to like build his like fighting Spirit crates and then and then he made like a very great progress very quickly like after that how is it in the winter

when you train like you I mean you have indoor places right I'm in Finland but still kind of difficult if if it's a big stretch of time where like Trucking we can't do so it's like um we can nowadays we have more uh we can go to even warm indoor places before we trade in a cold horse trading around us but yeah we do like obedience we do uh we can do protection so what are the benefits of the benefits training in the kitchen so to speak because we all train in the kitchen at some point right yeah I do a lot this with puppies I think the cool thing is that there is no destruction we just can focus on the dog and uh and um also our own Improvement more but and another benefit is sometimes that sometimes dogs need a break it's not about like if you think about obedience and and protection it's more about the quality of trading and it doesn't matter if you have one month break if you train after that right gently the you know what I was thinking also that it's very interesting to talk about is as a trainer to adapt to the dog that you have at the moment and not to always compare it to the dog that you had in the past I think trainers just not everybody but you have a good dog and you always it's like okay he has to become the same dog and I think um it's a disadvantage when you try to make you you almost disrespecting what that individual dog is if you constantly try to make him look like the one before right yeah you have to like uh I think the great trainers always adopt themselves and their methods they are using in each individual dock so so um it starts even from a movements from your praise voices from everything it's not only even like whether you use food or toy and it's it's the whole package and and I think the good trainers are like good actors so so um you know and and then we have to have this kind of High Hope attitude also that we think that um we have like a dog who is talented it's different than the previous one but it has his own benefits his own you know talents what he brings in like for example I think the Dogwood I have right now is more adaptive he wants to do things right while I think for example my previous stock who didn't want to do you know he was like he didn't care about whether I'm happy or not but then he had another Talent he had like really really good like um like like if he wanted something he was like extremely focused nothing could ruin that the problem was how to make him so motivated about everything so every dog has like their own things and and yeah we have to adapt it I think that's the right that's also what I love to do I love to find oh when I do this oh now

he responds as well and then I feel like it's like very rewarding to myself when I realized that I have now learned something new from my dog and I can make it better and that's how he responses because dogs are very good teachers yeah what about the methodical training like we we have plan where we're going but I think making the plan of and that plan probably changes all the time but how do you how do you move forward you have you got the dog you start training yeah I think we have the first half that's the vision how is there something about being methodical but there is also something about recognizing the moment and the dog says no let's go there yeah and you get stuck and you don't allow it right yeah I think the main important first of all is that you have like you have a vision you have to see in your mind like what's the end result like like how you want your dog to look at like in protection and obedience in tracking and wherever you want to train him and then you have to understand like what your kind of talk will look at its best you know at his best that you understand that even my would like my dog to look like this but maybe my dog can't do exactly this way but he can look a little bit different but still very good still get excellent results so you you have the vision then you think like the steps like how you can get there so you have a plan of course like like strategy how you can reach that and then I have like some kind of like Milestones there on my way I look like always the progress how it goes forward and if I realize that we stuck longer than than should in one part I'm like questioning if my method is wrong should I change something if it shows that I have to repeat more I have to train more or like like I have to make Acquisitions and then I have to try sometimes we just try like okay maybe if I try like that maybe maybe that could be something and I'm like observing like so do you say you're how would you describe yourself your skill of are you more rigid or more flexible to go around and and go I'm very flexible right I think flexible is very important no and I and I also like I look I love to see like like other top trainers training who go there and who reach the same results with a little bit different ways because I can always learn something then I can say like like for example now we have had an awesome training here like like I was talking with one exercise we talked about it we tried something what I haven't tried before right because I thought that you know I have already tried everything what I can from my tool pack and then we are like okay we can try something else

and it it came like immediate like results so so I think it's like I always like but I want to always see like if I'm listening advices you know I want to see also some results behind them rules are important because if we don't know the rules and if we don't if we don't watch where the competition what the trends are and don't understand how to make points yeah right it's it's a in a way it's a chess game what we do we have to say Okay my dog's not going to be able to sit the same it's just not possible to sit physically the way some other dog will yeah I'll leave that alone I'm not gonna push it but I know where I can get my points back exactly right yes so knowing rules and knowing how to find for fight for points yeah when you're competing and for giving some little like don't try to break the dog you know don't try to like like it's like how to say you have to understand that what are your skills what is the personality of your dog and then decide to do little compromises exactly like you said that I can get the points and where the big points are coming I can focus on those exercises and because there my dog can like shine right and then deciding that okay this thing here is gonna be half point away I'm not gonna like try to get that half point you know in in like like a tomb up obsessed obviously obsessed yes yes and then just okay because it's very easy to get obsessed when when something is not quite how you want and then you but then it's like you're starting to pocket it and instead of making it better you make the dog more aware that he cannot do it yeah yeah exactly and then you also get more when you get more obsessed like when the trainer gets more obsessed it's also that your mood is not like good for the training either so and and and I mean we don't talk about like one training that can sometimes go on that way that you kind of like try to fix something and then you realize that was maybe not a good idea I want training when you have a good base Basics and good foundation it's it's it's not a problem but then you have to pick clever trainer and realize that that is not how I want to bring my dog forward this is not good I have to change myself and it's all about also that we learn that even we are not always satisfied that we learn to act you know that yeah you know and I have a really really funny example of this like my previous talk was not good in seat from motion um and then um I knew he's gonna make like a very good and he always makes like I want him to do like a relaxed sit he doesn't have to be super super fast and then my assistant trainer like it was a once a training that I told him to say super

when my dog stayed so good when he sits and then um if it's like especially could they can say like I think Super and then good when it's not so good and they forgot to say me anything they were like talking with each other so then I turned around and I'm like looking at them I was angry I didn't hear any feedback and I'm like was it not good and they were like yeah yeah it was one part that he did it like like very good like and then I was like then I of course reported my dog and then I questioned myself afterwards that why do I even need this information whether my dog was like two-parted or one parted or something if I if I anyway I'm going to reward my dog so I'm not gonna give him any correction I'm just going to reward him like no matter how he does it so why do I need it here and then I told next reading to my trainers like my assistant trainer saying to me that instead Elm is super no matter how he does it tell me always super and then I turn around and I heard the super with the voice like super like this and I was so good mood and I came back because I actually only wanted to reward him from good Focus and sew and relax it and good Focus so I always rewarded him and I felt so good one month before my trial that my dog also started to sit faster you know and and and and and and the main focus was actually in the focus of the dog right so kind of like that you question like what kind of information you need in each training and and when you are in good mood and and no matter how my luck was I was like he must be super because they said super so it boosts my lift my mood up yes yes yes and and so sometimes you know these kind of things are needed in in order to actually get excellent obedience and he did excellent obedience in his championships yes he did no matter with a little slow seat yes he did this is this is that's the the cool part about the game we play let's do this kind of moment too that's what I think that's what separates really excellent training and thinking and planning from from just hitting a wall and being stubborn um do you like I think it will be interesting for people because menu not everybody but many want to be where you are that's the motivation right we get inspired just as you're you it's it's your word inspire your dog right yeah and and they I think everybody is assuming how you train how I train how somebody you know very successful trainer train and I think we we don't always train the same way but somehow as we talked we have a picture how to get there and having these different flavors is very interesting instead of everybody doing exactly the same thing I think we

will be bored to that to where it's like oh I try something different than everybody and then we compare and then we share and that's how we grow as a community yeah and so do you like do you like as you say you have sometimes people to spot you how often you train by yourself I think I train mostly by myself like maybe 99 I'm just alone yeah the same thing and yeah so what about then do you now that we have phones and it's so easy to make videos like do you how how much do you watch do you film your training sessions I would you see any importance of that yeah I think it's it's really every time I have a chance I kind of keep my phone and I'm like please film my training if you have like more people I always ask them to fail my trading because I just love to watch it afterwards I can see some little things there especially from my own handling that I can improve this comes of course even more important like later um when we prepare our dogs to the competitions but I like to see there are some things that I can't see you know like how you know how the rock sits for example or how how I stop how I how I use my legs for example you know like leg work hand work this kind of little things when I'm preparing doctor competitions I like to see it and it's kind of like yeah of course a lot of things I feel also yeah next to me but I I like to do it and it's different when like you see him here looking at you but it's different when you see him from the side okay yeah so it's like and then you see yourself it's like no I could have helped here right or or so you do film yeah and the next one that's very interesting and I think it's interesting not just for me but everybody how often would you train and does it matter like like training like the difference between having a young dog versus older dog and you're you're at home and you have you do your normal stuff and your training how how often how long the sessions okay the younger the dog is the shorter other sessions so um usually it's like two minutes with little puppy two three minutes only I think when I'm training with food um but I do it like three times a day like some little things so that's kind of like the kitchen training we're talking about okay let's have some fun exactly that's like like when he engaged with me and I I wanna like teach him like the healing position and and stuff like that and and then immediately when I know that I have reached a limit what my dog can do let's say that my dog has like learned to seek the right healing position he has learned to do the healing Early Head Up in the right position I stop it and I can have like six months break from that particular

exercise and I can wait his Drive develops he plays well with me and then I can come back for this Basics what he already has learned so I don't like I don't just train because I think that I want to train kind of you know I always think that what my rock actually has to learn and because the time is very limited so I have to I have to train the right things and then I can focus on something else and then um yeah and then I can have easily when I'm traveling and I'm traveling without my dog then he has of course break from training and so but yeah it's so then when the dog gets older he's uh energy level gets higher um I can already play with him more of course than the training sessions comes longer come longer and and so but even then I can decide that if I just want to build like more energy to one particular exercise I can just train that and make it very short or I can decide that now my dog needs to learn like duration and and and like like keep on going so sometimes I'd make it on this way and it's uh you like to focus when you take the dog out to Plate I mean to train right focus on certain exercises or you're trying to make a whole picture because sometimes you know there is trainers that train teach pattern and it's like every session it's a very robotic like and there is trainers that just work elements and then here and there put them together what is your I I think more in the beginning for this like I I teach like all elements separately first as perfect as I can and then I start to put them together as a pattern like a competition pattern yeah and then when I'm preparing my dog to the competition like like when they are like two to three years or something like this of course depending on each stocks um development but then I start to already like do more longer sessions and and and I'm also introducing the pattern for them but but even then I can break it and decide to just if I have a problem in one exercise you know I can just focus on that particular exercise and and so on and then again bring it back in yeah exactly so it's very when you train which one is like if you if you are to say your top three big imp of importance in your training like what what is number one thing that you would want emotions I think the emotional uh uh stage like the emotional the interaction between the two or your I think that um there are like two things it depends on the exercise so in some I think the for me the most important is that the dog is like his emotional level and his arousal level is exactly the the right like for each exercise because in different exercises you want to have like a dog in

different uh arousal level in different emotional states and like like for example in the long down we want something else than in the center way yes we want the dog who is like yeah not singing anything so you kind I do like you know like I I always seen at least in my head the vitamin passive and active exercises and yeah and then they have different elements to where it's like okay if I need active and I'm doing training then I would do the active stuff in the beginning of the session and then the like I would do the down I will introduce later on everything mixes up but I I genuinely would like to do at the long down after the dough is already trained and he kind of wants to lay down in some ways do you kind of separate like they do play like this or no um yeah I can also like in the beginning of like long down uh I can train that like a bit separately The Rock will be focused on me sometimes like that he kind of understands the exercise and and later on I can train it like as the last exercise sometimes also the first one of course like because sometimes people don't need to need to introduce the young look natural that you have to stay here like when even in the beginning but um but yeah it's it's um it's like um it it's like a veering very much this but sometimes I do like I feel that now I need to focus on making my when I want to like stabilize a certain emotional state for example the retrieves and send away so that's for sure that I don't train first healing then then I just train like retrieves and send away that he's very fresh he puts all the energy what he has on those right because I want to have like a really good returns and very fast send away that he's not tired um and then then when my dog like sport condition improves and he can like his duration gets better so he is his physical condition his mental condition is like stronger then I of course sometimes can do like you know the healing pattern sit down stand recalls then retrieves and then send away but I don't too often do the whole pattern like that I often like split it that I have like retrieves and send away I have you know healing and sit down stand motions and then um yeah just to make sure that my dog is like not too often too tired when he does the retrieves one of the cool things that I been watching you do yeah is that very initial like the the very first moment when we say let's go on the field like you take a very good care that the dog when you go on the field he is in the right mood and the right motivation and then things go right yeah a lot of trainers neglect that going on the field thinking that once on the field as they start healing as they

start doing things they kind of progressively get better but the dog is not 100 and I think you're very good at whatever how you create it and I'm sure with every dog is different but there is this moment that I'm sure you take time otherwise it cannot happen like this but when you say let's go out there undivided attention and motivation from your dog but that is very nice to say this because this absolutely is something we have to train for like we have to train it it's like not naturally built in any dog because obedience is not so natural of course like tracking or protection is more fun for the dog itself and when for example my young Rock what you have seen now here was younger he was like six months old and I did like seminar in France and I had my dog there with me and we have just trained like you know um protection a lot of protection with him every time when I went to another field I always did protection and then I informed people that I'm very sure when I come here my rock is not engaged with me so I don't start to do healing even you want to see me doing the healing I'm just focusing on like engagement and I just come here like you know like to tell him that if he looks away I will give him feedback no you shouldn't watch away you should watch me wow then emotionally I I like make him feeling really good of that and I play with him and when I get him engaged Maybe I will show you one healing right so that that that first thing is like this that I teach him that no matter what my dog expectation is you first if I tell you it's obedience then focused on me and then we have a lot of fun so I I give him a lot of feedback both positive also negative feedback if he is like thinking of something else because we know I'm sure you agree with me that when we have high driven dogs who are into who are brave and interested in everything what happens around them we just cannot simply wait yes and let them decide what's good to do because they can choose so many things around and so I'm I'm doing this and then he improved very quickly and I went to a lot of like places with him and I told always of people even I came here I first introduced I told to people that I come here to do just engagement and I did in a seminar like the first hearing session but I felt immediately he was there so I could start feeling right yeah it's perfect it's so perfect feeling but it comes like after we have trained it for the dog we have to train first the dog to focus on us so simply task The Rock can for sure do like eye contact like a face to face super reward from that and when I feel that even I put a toy away

and I move a little bit and The Rock still keeps the eye contact when I have this feeling then I can start healing and in a way your you are creating the the desire and believe in the dog that they can almost like push you because I'm ready let's go yeah it's more like yeah there's kind of the other way around yeah as a Handler I'm already a new let's go right yeah I want my dogs to say like when I it's so important for me that when I hide the toy and I put it like invisible in the pocket that my rock is like like keep on the eye contact if I move he's like I want to do it I want to do it and I and he would like to quote on myself and I'm a bit like preventing him and I say not yet not yet okay so that the heel command is like is like connected uh that don't connect it like oh and conditions it that it's like a free okay I let you do that that heat is like free yeah heel okay and he really wants to push me to let him do that so when you like I I sometimes struggle with this when I give seminars and you give plenty of seminars everywhere this on its own is so important and so critical but when you're in a seminar environment people want you to go on the field and you want to show the healing and everything but that preparation moment of the dog warning and being ready and being focused and being in the the optimal mindset for work I find it very difficult for people in a seminary environment because they feel that this is this is not what they are there for they want to see how do you do the healing how do you teach the city how do you make the retrieve and this gets totally kind of left aside and it's so important how do you how do you go in your seminars through to tell people that that's a big deal yeah and I think normally I don't have my dog with me so normally just like presentation video presentations and I I'm like explaining this there but when I have to talk with me it's so important I love my rock so much and I love my work so much I don't want to spoil it just because people have wrong expectations so they have to first of all understand that young dogs they will not see errorless training they will not see something me doing like uh you know like a five-year-old.com to the Championships if I have one year old dog or two years old dog and so I want to be very honest with them and explain them like and I think that it's cool to explain them before I even take the dog that this is what you should expect and then you will see how I interact with my dog and that is the most important thing I think to even learn not exactly like how the dog like how the healing even looks like but don't

expect a healing I will show the healing if I can and I think they have understood it nicely when I learned to like explain this like beforehand but I think this is something that um people think that when you are like a world champion trainer that your dog will look like a world champion when it's one year old which is completely false yes I can make a quote we know this in the Instagram videos we can make it super cool and my look can look like 16 videos it's very easy to make it's super easy it's completely different to do it like at trials that's why I always want to see The Rock in a trials now now that you touch the internet and the social media training how how do you feel like I mean there is the benefits of course of being able to see so much but how do you feel about the the Instagram moments of okay well this is a good healing this good healing this is like do you feel the training Community benefits or it's a little bit of disadvantage when they watch this kind of videos I think it's like both the cool thing is we can inspire people of course by Instagram you can show good work I'm really I'm also thinking it's a bit disadvantage that people they they kind of like um they may be think it's too easy they they learn that they own because nobody shows errors in Instagram right the struggle struggles and everything what we all have to face in order to get where we want to and um and also like like when I posted a video of my doctor in like 16 weeks old like a perfect healing with a perfect position and he was only able to do it with with no distractions in my home field and I couldn't even go with the with a strange field uh like like I don't even know if he would play with me there well you know because his prey drive wasn't yet that open and um and sometimes I'm thinking that it's like making people believing like like something fake and and then in your seminars I always explain it you know this is the perfect Instagram video but that's how we really do it and that's how we really reach it and so that people don't they they have to they have started to learn too much this kind of errorless training that oh I don't want to make any mistakes you will do mistakes honey so let's take it as it comes and then we can fix the mistakes mistakes are part of learning no I mean it's very easy to navigate it's like okay that's that's a wrong way that's what we like yeah versus focusing on the right way I I also I also I'm so big on trial and error I think it's it's like okay well that that didn't work did it let's see how we can make it better yeah yeah and I think that um um like when you mentioned before about

um like we all aim of course like the train looks like very conflict-free and and what I think that the cool trainers like you and and like like all the people we we have had here right like like this weekend um it's like the cool thing like even we have a bit different approach like how we like like with our how like the methods and so how we go there but the cool thing is that we are all like very much focused on emotional communication right like we and we are good at that and that is something what you can't learn in the books yeah it's the it's the make making the dog truly believe that they are capable and that they are successful you yeah and you can make like the dog believing that that that you are proud of the dog and they can feel the pride in your voice and they can feel the the kind of Happiness if you want to make them more delighted you can make them feeling calm and it's like how you play with your voice how you interact and I think that this is what I really admire in all good trainers that they that's the that's the key there yeah it's there yeah that's very interesting that it's yeah and I think this is like and I think that people should Focus not so much like like the technical way of teaching like a healing for example they should focus on more like how we interact with the dogs how our what our body language tell us to them how we talk to the dogs our timing of course but it's much more than just timing and I think this kind of like when you have these four squat like four quadrants yeah and this kind of behaviorism it never gives answer to all learning because stocks can also like model and copy humans they can feel emotions and and and that is something important we have to like in addition I mean this there are a lot of things we can learn from Theory but then there is also a lot of things we can just learn by you know trying and watching how the good Traders are doing it we could learn so much by that yeah it's a it's a that toss-up between theories and Hands-On and Hands-On it's in my opinion is so big it's like sometimes I like I I would go I don't know in any country anywhere and I would look at somebody with a just a dog not doing any sports or anything and they have that thing between them and their dog just because they like the dog and the dog likes them and they have come to some agreement how they do things so even if they go to the park and play ball come on let's see that yeah and I think this is um I think we all have it inside but when we think oh I'm gonna be this big trainer we neglect that part of being being yourself and and really looking at the dog as a as your body as your friend

is like Hey we're gonna figure it out and we're gonna make this it's not necessarily let's go that system and we go strictly strictly to where it becomes so uh uh artificial that the dog is like that's not fun like you're not having fun with me you're just making me do things and and then we end up where I'm going with this is the kind of circling back to where we were creating a dog that wants to versus making a dog do and they both have the place but a dog that to to create that dog to want to do things with you to really be like she's kind of seeking more right and then we are at times no you have to do it this way but if we start with you have to then we can it's very hard to make the dog want to right yeah and I think like like when I saw the book in your library today about jacquesep and he talked about this seeking mood that what is very like pleasurable itself and I think when I train my young dogs like to learn new things I'm aiming for this kind of like the rock would be like oh you have like like the Handler has something what I want how could I get but I'm like yeah you have to keep on trying intriguing yes intriguing like and it's it's like they and when we get our dogs to this mood and they like they're like oh I have it here and how could you get it oh you can see the right position like you even when you I mean during the seminars and everything when you start doing this and you're explaining it to to the Handler and it's their dog and you start talking like this and the dogs get so intrigued by you and and I mean the Handler the owner becomes almost secondary just because you you bring that Curiosity and that like and they're mesmerized like oh I want to do things with you yeah because like no matter what's like our like like with humans we can talk we have the language we talk English we talk Finnish whatever and and you understand my words but dogs are very good in picking at picking up like emotions and so when we when we and I thought if I would talk to you like right now with this kind of like very boring like driving instructor voice it sounds like it's it has its place in the dog training this kind of good boy well done like that but if I want to make the dog more exciting I I intentionally change my voice and I think if we play a little bit I have something what you want yeah I have the food here yeah and they're like oh I really want to have that you know and it's not only the voice it's my whole um like an expression with the body also I can rise my eyebrows like oh the life there's a camera they become feeding that emotional like oh she really is like excited really

special yeah she really has something and also when they come oh oh I was it was not my intention to give all of that to you but you were so crazy so you got it and then I you know all these things had its place and and that is something what I like like what I think what what I would wish that in scientifical research is they would like a little bit more like like make researches about this yes because we dog trainers know how much like and we have already the science has has already like um like proven that dogs have emotions and and and emotions are like mirroring between humans and dogs but still actually like how many dog books we have about that that how would you do that what kind of emotions look can actually feel and how can you help your doctor become more engaged with you if you learned like play with your voice a little more and with your body yeah I think that is something and that's why I like for example I I wrote a book about this in Finnish language tell me a little bit about the book now because now that we mentioned that yeah uh it was like um I want to write a book about like my way of communicating with a dog so I like explain like six different praise voices there how we can like um communicate better with with dogs generally like how we can use the body language how we can interpret dog's emotions and and then become like every day a little bit better Rock Hunter because it's something that we never become perfect but I think that it is something that when people would uh so this book is just about emotional communication with the talk not like teaching like like how to train your dog to do like a perfect healing because if we have this really good like I think that all the really top level Traders they have it like naturally but in the Seminars the time is limited in in a private lessons people are very focused on fixing a particular something yeah and fixing some problem fixing some issue but so often we will say hey but you have to first learn to communicate with your dog better and then we can come back for this problem what you want to fix and so it's more about like this and and so um yeah so when you when you started writing yeah I'm sure it's different for everybody how when when was the moment when you said okay I think I have enough now that I can make that book and how how did you end up writing the whole thing oh yeah so it was like this that first of all I wanted to write a book like a long time already but I never had time and then one of my friend who is like she has she's an author she has published many dog books and she knows the kind of publisher in Finland and she has been talking with

him his publisher and then she called me one like Lumi November you know day like would you write a book for us and I'm like okay let's make a deal and I signed the papers and eventually I like I found myself I had like a one year time but of course I found myself that three months before the deadline I really have to do that right and then I was rounding it like days and nights you know did they already give you some money ahead of time or no no they gave me the first money like when they get the script you know but it was like me with my first book they gave me five thousand which was quite a bit of money in the 90s yeah and and I was cornered I had no way to you know now I know I've already spent the money I'm like I have to make this book now well I have the same idea that you know I have the contract it's a deadline you know I must do it and I just like went to my friend's like summer Cottage like for three days when I started and I'm like oh gosh I have to get it done but eventually when I started to do that it went like the first like I think the first like the first maybe 30 pages were the most hard like when you were like you know everything but then it went like like like I knew I knew what I'm gonna write they wanted to have originally more like a theoretical book about like how to teach a doctor to do like a recall and I'm like no no and I wanted to write a book about emotional communication and then we came off like they liked it like eventually how it was but I'm like we have already books about like plenty yes yeah but we don't have books about this and that's my my special way to do it and I want to like explain it to people because people are asking like what's your secret well that is my secret right so now it's in the book very true yeah how long did it take you to finish it well it was supposed to be like I said like like September and I have the deadline like in the end of November but eventually I call it like 30th of December like after Christmas I got it in a publisher and then we still like made like a little little changes there but yeah but it was it was good and um um yeah so now the book is ready for English it's translated yeah it's like I haven't seen yet it it's like it came from the pop like from the printing company like it's now in my house so when I fly tomorrow the Finland I'm gonna say it first time in my hands in English and you will send few copies here I will definitely do that so how once once the book was done what do you happy with what you did because that's a hard one I was super happy yeah and I think it was like it has been a book that people who have read it they

said that they have been laughing they have been learning and they have been crying so it's uh it has been interesting because we added there like some stories about my dogs and my life too to make it a bit more like like like light to read yes yeah which is important for us and so uh and I think then it's then it's nice right like that it raises emotions too did um the seminars giving so many seminars how did that help with the book did you already kind of Hit the outline or you had to sit down and really make the outline of the book I think like all those seminars uh all the people I have ever met in my life like like all of them have helped me to become like a better trainer and help me to understand what the dog trainers actually need right and I had the feeling that people don't know what they actually need they are like they think that they need just help for the exercises but they would need like you know this and then um and all like my online like lectures uh all of these like kind of like it was like an easy to make the structure for the book yeah and also when you have the when you actually write this book it also helps you in the seminars because eventually when you really have to think how you write it down when you explain it to people and you have to make it like a shorter version of it it helps you to also like like be a better teacher yeah that's these are the steps for me as well like you know once you start teaching and you're teaching and somehow the more you teach the better you become of of knowing how to give the information just as you said like sometimes people really don't they they want this while they're actually really need this and and seminars help you become better but ultimately there is a saying and I I'm gonna butcher it but like um any any time you or a good teacher writing a book makes you it's just guys rocks your abilities like you become better version of yourself after writing the book because you put so much thinking and evaluating what you're doing and and you get more clarity of why right yes yes so when you like um another one that it's always of Interest we all like different types of dogs and and sometimes the type of dog that someone likes it's not your type of dog right yes and it doesn't make it a worse or better dog it's just this is your type of yeah so like what is a the type of dog that that you go I like you for me is like the first and most important is self-confidence I really like dogs who are like like like self-confident in all situations you know that they are like like a robust Brave dogs who liked like um explore and challenge themselves but

you know who are like very confident right and and and um like like you know like and I also like like social dogs that who are like so confident they don't have to like all the time think that oh if I like you or if I don't like you you know they are like very confident in all environments with different people they like to make and meet and mix it doesn't mean that they are pleasing them it's just that they are confident yeah that's like in the the one thing what I always look at uh the confidence braveness um self-confidence and then of course like doku is like um it has to have some motivation to like fight I love dogs who like to fight like play fight and who like to challenge and challenge yeah enjoy of this enjoy like challenges and who don't only want to get a toy to him themselves but they want to continue the game right yeah that's like another thing um that's like my type of dog so only when I see that that's for me like what about male female thing is that a thing to you um well I would love to say that it doesn't matter the gender that I I I I I think more about the individual dog but I actually have always chosen males I end up with males um they are I mean they are often a little more dominant like more um how to say more powerful yeah it's the direction yeah I think and I think a good female uh like a breeding female and what is the cool Femur for the sport sometimes we have dogs who can be both for sure but we more often have females that who are a little more like um how to say softer type or or no I would say that they are more like the the aggression what we want to see in like protection is often coming out a little bit from the insecurity and I wouldn't consider them to be so good like breeding females like not so stable but they can be phenomenal in in their Protection work you know like the kind of looks who are like showing the teeth they are very active in their barking but still they are very quick and fast but that doesn't I like more like balance dogs so I would in a females I would come more for the balance type of talk you know who is like and sometimes we can have dogs who can be both but we have rarely like more rare of those so we have more like um I think the females who can do like high points but then they are a little bit on the edge and then I think that for the breeding I will always look for the female who is like more social more like kind of yeah confident but with the maze you can have them both more often in the same package because of the testosterone kind of like right you know but then we also have some females who can be like yeah so ah it's like I'm talking a little bit

myself now like a circle but yeah yeah I hope the people will understand what I mean just like what we have right now I mean over this few weeks that we've been training together there is quite a few females that you you see and I mean Natalia's dog is a brother I mean you bred the female yeah and she's that kind of female that is like okay you you want this bring it on I'm here um and then there is the other females that we have to make them believe that they can do it to where the dog that the female that has it is like yeah let's go there if you want to go there let's go there right and that's the cool part of uh yeah but it's true with females it's a little bit not as common and what about you I yeah it's a very hard one I my very first one it was and um I mean I love your young female what you have yes but she's also still related in there and that's kind of you know they're they're still that same they're coming from the same gene pool right so it's like um yeah I I didn't know that I'm gonna train her but now I cannot not train her right like how do you not train that girl um yeah but it like it's a very interesting thing with specially the Belgian dogs I always very it's very intriguing to me because they on one hand the Belgian ring people the really classic old-school Belgium people they all their concern as far as breeding is to be a good mom and to come from the right genetics yeah yeah but they still produce a female that you can make sport high level sport it's not just the I think the most actually like I haven't seen many females that have really gone to my heart but the ones who have done that are coming from the Belgian ring lines yeah I I I'm almost convinced that if I don't know what it is with the Belgian ring sport how that program makes the selection of a dog but it in some ways in my opinion it's the best selection I really agree I really agree because we have like let's say the Germans have the DMC and they have the kyronian and somehow there are two different types of dogs right like it's a and not that they're the one is better than the other but it's a different type yeah and that that Belgium program has something in it I'm so glad that we still that should never go away and I think it will be the sport I would do but I you know because I I'm so born to this igb you know yes I was you know that's my sport but I still like very much respect like what they have done and how good dogs they have produced for us over the years breathing is very it's so interesting it's always interesting and how how many breedings you've done so far uh not not so much like I have um I usually breathe like whenever I need a

dog or like one leader in like every second year because rocks are living inside my house and I'm always excited to do that and when the puppies are like seven weeks I'm like I'm so done because I do my best you know but it's more like that I'm happy they got a new home stuff and it takes time for me to recover again through my best after two years but yeah I have like um maybe like like with my current like a kennel name I have bread like I don't know um and then also in my previous uh I was like um with my previous husband we break some dog so maybe about 150 puppies or something like that but not not so much for sure one of the hard ones for me used to be now because I think it still would be difficult if I breed something outside of what I know but I'm pretty good of telling right now but I used to make a lot of mistakes of selecting like I would always and we're talking way back when I started breeding and for for quite some time after somehow I get fixated on a dog that was showing so much as a puppy and I would miss the actual really good one because that one was just always in your face and you always see that one do you know what I'm saying yeah I know what you say yeah and how confident you are when you make a breathing to to point out the different so that the the really not so confident those they're kind of easy but then they are not because sometimes something snaps and here I am I'm ready now right and I I can hear what you say because um I think it's like um that what I have learned like like how to for example select a dog like to myself from the leader like would I have learned my mistakes and everything would be that I would look more like for the balanced dog like who who doesn't show like how to say who has nothing which irritates me let's put it in that way so he doesn't have to be the best fighter he's not he he doesn't have to be the best eater but he should have like nothing extreme you know nothing also on the other side extreme like like like kind of like the balance puppy I think they have often been the best ones as an adult but also When selecting dogs like for breeding like just like when you make the combination I have done a lot of also they're like mistakes I always I always wanted to have like a very strong docs for breeding and I thought that when you select the best for example female what you can have in the leader on the field that this would be the best female for breeding and then I use that for their most dominant strong robust male I found and then um and I had like another female who was for example the sister of that best female who was actually like just like a

balanced more balanced dog and I use it for the same male and the puppies were like just better right not so sharp not so uh like um like a not so super high driven but just like more kind of clear interactivity levels reactivity level I was like yeah yeah exactly like that and they were actually like I think like more like a better puppies an experience I always pays attention to those reactivity kind of behavior since how I like it it's like hmm I've learned that before yeah exactly and then also um about the dominance I think that when we are like like what I found out was that I how to say it's not only about how dominant the dog is or how strong the dog is but you have to give also a lot of like attention to the self-control impulse control you know the rock is not too impulsive we need like impulsive talks they cannot be too low like impulsive either because otherwise they will not react for anything right but if it's like if The Rock has a very very like that that actually breeding is much more than just like a we cannot have so simple personality traits for dogs you know like high drive low Drive no we have to have it more like that it's about how much prey drive fighting spirited dog has like how much motivation to play the dog has but then there is also that how confident the dog is there is also the self-control then there is like and that is very important part there and then also like how um like how well the lock is like reading the social cues from the human how much he wants to interact with humans because before I was like there is not there is no dogs who are like too dominant you know and they're I think still that there are not dogs who are too dominant but it depends on the other personality traits what the same drug processes you know if it's like a super dominant dog no willingness to cooperate yes with humans and and difficulties don't like a little bit primitive type of yeah type of dog who don't like the oxytocin doesn't like births in their brains when you praise and they're like you're like oh super super and they're like what do you want yeah you know that type of dogs which are very important to still have yes the genie pool yes we need also those but then when you have like that kind of characteristic like combined with high dominance like like desire to control the environment which is different than fighting Spirit yeah just controlling human and and all the environment and then also you can have the same look and have like like a sensation seeking you know like he wants to explore like like the rats who are like the bravest ones who call a life more curiosity yeah they

want to go what's there going on and so on and then low energy level to anything else and fighting and like like there can be so many like traits that actually affect how trainable the dog is and I think in Doc sport we often use so like we make it we we talk too simply about personality because we can have a dominant talk who has also High willingness to engage or or like high energy level and if you have high energy dog with high dominance or low energy dog with high dominance it's completely different different type of machine very different type of machine exactly yeah what about them that's another big one I think among dogs sports people how do you do you allow your dog to interact with other people how much you interact with other people like how where do you stand on this yeah I like to make my rocks like confident with people they can like say contact with people in a normal life I like to them to be very social because the more confident they are with people they have to feel that humans are like friendly yeah I don't want them to feel that humans are enemy you know yeah it also makes them like more confident I think and it's also better for them because it makes them like you know I think they learn from those interactions right it's just overall all these are humans this is how this human and this human yeah and of course when I train my dog then he should all interact with me but also the training field I want to socialize them well with humans uh I don't social them socialize them so well with other dogs because I only have like a one dog at home and but I also give them like good experiences with some friendly dogs but but if I walk with them I don't want them to say hello to every dog what we see on the streets because they have to also learn to pass them and not get like too excited about other dogs in every situation but um yeah how do you feel about the endurance part and just like the the outside training behaviors but just just maintaining some endurance and stamina do you do anything outside like treadmill swimming like any any things like that more specifically not just for fun but like actually because you want to well I believe more like the sports condition like as if we train the sport the the sport itself increase increases the condition of the dog but outside I go running in the forest I like my dog to get a lot of like free free running without leash so they can like relax the muscles it's more like relaxation than actually building the the condition so we can go like let's say 12 kilometer running yeah something like this and I try to do this like and 12 kilometers that's a good run yeah but

it's more like they are free they can sure they can Trot they may need Trot there they can sniff things they can yeah yeah cut up a little bit but it's more like this um so this I do but I think that this kind of like explosiveness and and the sport condition comes here so that's how I have used to do it I I don't want to say that I'm not an expert of this area so that's how I have done it and it has been I think good for my dogs I think the forest brings uh uh a special thing also between the the bond like I think going out in the woods with your dog makes hit some Natural Instincts and and you and the dog kind of become closer because of that genetic instincts of okay we're in nature and we're together and we're like you and I right yeah yeah there is something like this I think and it's very relaxing kind of right like the dog can also feel more like freedom and and so I think it's like um like even in the big big competitions like in World Championships I I really like to call like long walks like like the one day before the the performance I usually don't train anything if I really don't have to right and I just go like a long walks or or running for a few hours just to like let them like you know getting excised but still like nothing like nothing but brings like mental stress but release is the stress away how do you handle the days before competition like myself yeah like like just I mean the whole the whole thing of okay should I train should I not train should I leave it alone should I you know I mean I'm sure you have this for sure but I try to like okay first of all because uh I like how confident you are in what you've done up to that point that's okay I'm at short time I'm actually rather confident with that I'm often thinking that even I'm nervous my I try to always come back for this that my rock has been prepared well he knows what to do I'm not gonna like ruin it by just training because I feel nervous so I try to like train the things but I think it's necessary for like maintaining my dog I don't change anything usually in the training and I give like uh I try to keep my look like fresh but not like um on the train you you see yeah yeah yeah yeah line between warming up but not going deep in yeah like just like a regular training exactly like I do always as same as possible and then uh and then just give my look like few days break before the actual performance if needed and then um I'm nervous so I want to talk I want to talk a lot and I will go through these kind of things but I make sure that my dog will not listen my conversations that's so funny you know really I do the

same thing like Natalia like she knows there is times before competition that I just I talk yeah because just like this and she's like okay yeah there is Ivan now he's he's in a competition mode yeah but it's really important that my rock is in the hotel room and we go to some restaurant and I keep on talking there and I want to be super merry mood in front of my dog that even that I don't show that I'm disappointed of anything and I don't want people to talk even even if the topic is nothing about doc sport but I don't want to talk about politics or nothing so that my dog can hear that I get like two weeks cited or too nervous or something so I say pay attention yes they do they do and even when I'm sleeping and I don't sleep that well I'm like I can't turn around now in the bed because that can wake up my dog I just keep pretending I'm sleeping yeah do you get more nervous now as the next dog comes um that you have to because once you have the name you have of course everybody will expect more expectation yeah how do you handle that but today the better you do the more they expect right yeah well actually like um I think the worst ones for me was like the First World Championships when I couldn't eat for three days I was just like drinking water I was so nervous you know exactly in left like in France yeah and and now it's better I can only eat but um I think it's more like about like like uh like um now I have also more tools to like handle my nervousness like I will give me some tips I need that well like like for example like okay I talk with you know like like you do yeah um so that my dog is not hearing it but before my performance I have found out that when I physically exercise I got this day from the theater world that when I make myself like sweating so I make like some you know like running and I open my especially the opportunity physiology yeah and then I'm even like feeling a bit exhausted like 10 minutes or something right before my performance when my look is in the car like waiting for his performance or he doesn't see this I like open my voice and and this helped me a lot uh to just like when I take my dog you know and then I have of course some mental things too and I'm sure you have come with it like way much even more than me so so also like that I I trust what I'm doing I have my little things what I do before I leave the house and there are some superstitions exactly that makes me feeling so much better yeah like I have always the champagne in the cold waiting for you know opening it and I have like uh dessert after or or sometimes before I put it before the cold I never called it

a stadium if I don't have my car fridge and the champagne waiting for there and I call like and I made like a little bit space for the you know like I have the trophy stand at home and like I make space for there enough I can pick a new one there that's cool yeah Vision you're creating and I have the feeling if I don't do that I don't believe what I can do right and then when I get really really nervous I always think and I'm thanking for those who never believed in me and I'm thinking that I will not show them that I can't do that I must do that you know and I just like things just help there is a interesting fine line between being overboard confident in yourself that doesn't but if you don't have the confidence and if you don't believe that you can then then where are you going right yeah it's almost doomed before you start yeah it's kind of like a kind of like a joke with our friends that we do that but on the other hand we have to keep it as a joke that people don't think that we are like cocky right you know right but on the other hand it also makes it a feeling I have the feeling if I don't do this it's like I wouldn't believe I can do that so so they're like little things like this and then I think the most important I think actually in trading wise is that uh that I I just act like I have learned I think dog training is like an acting so no matter what my dog is throwing I'm gonna show that I'm like super happy even I wouldn't be like super satisfied or still back to the how do you walk in what yeah who works in the field right yeah and the dog must feel you are confident yes you know the upright body how you work how you present your dog and if you have practice a lot of patterns and how you and you know the rules where you can lose the points so you have practice already so many times how you handle without losing points for external body helps so it's so much more easier to do actually the way how you used to do it yeah than just changing it for the competitions and also the dog face you're more confident I think that's also something important that's because I know some people who are like I don't do it at competitions then why do we do it here right right out of the three phases obedience tracking protection because we both do igp which one is the most nerve-wracking the most the one that you just a you know obedience obedience is the most important for me too is because in obedience you can do so many mistakes you know what I mean like it's so much more about your handling in protection I mean it's more about how your dog interacts with a helper you can have of course like you have to also go

through your handling but your handling is very small there and in tracking your dog is behind like like in front of a 10 meter line yes and you just have to hold the line yeah tracking for me I think is probably the most like because you're going to feel yeah you just here we go it's all up to you buddy I just keep my fingers crossed in obedience I feel if I screw it up if I [ __ ] it up yeah I put pressure on me later on but in obedience you're way more in control yes if you have the good mentality you can you can manipulate your performance yes you can a lot you can affect so much I think like when you say it on that way I would say that Trucking is what I'm afraid of the most yeah that was my yeah because certainly you never exactly know how the surface will be and too many variables and you can't do anything it's just like your dog will do whatever you have taught him but in obedience you can affect but I think like like like that I'm more almost concerned about my own handling before obedience I'm really prepping myself for that that I'm gonna do it on that way I call it through in my imagination like before I even take my dog to the field and I'm going through like I split to simple Parts actually it feels not so difficult I'm gonna do it on this way and that's how I react if he does this that's how I'm gonna react if he does that so and then there is that recovery when something doesn't quite go the way you want nobody else sees it but you know that man and now the next exercise comes and now you have to switch and forget what happened wrong and you need to give hundred percent on the next thing right that's a hard one um um like to not to get shaken and disappointed at the moment of performance and to be able to okay yeah okay my seat was okay I'm not gonna dwell I'm not gonna now for the next five exercises think about my seat how bad it was right you have to have that ability to keep moving on to the next one and focus how to make the next one better what do you think of the where the sports going we're changing a lot we've been changing I mean it's constantly changing like from when I started comparing it to today it's almost a very different like a very different sport and that is good and bad things in my opinion of the direction we're taking but um if we break The Obedience for example how how do you feel where where we are going because I think judges and and this trainers we know I'm not gonna even say I just let you hear you where what you think of of where we are today I think are we going in the right place where are we going I think the cool thing is that we are like giving more attention to the dog's

emotional state that the churches would educate themselves about like what is the right emotional state what I don't like so much is that if um if some Churches or and also some competitors are focusing too much about speed because it's never about a speed it's about the emotional like like because you know you can have a super Speedy dog but still the emotional effect is not correct and then you can have a little bit lesser Speedy dog but he wants to do it right he just physically and he's more balanced or something clean yeah performance of the behaviors right yeah and you can see the dog is still like very open very like you have to look more if the rock is feeling like good instead of concentrating on the speed but still we of course want to have like not just talk who want to like feel good but not putting energy so it's kind of like a fine balance with them of course because no sport performance can be done if we even don't talk about Dog Sports but nobody goes to play hockey by I'm just happy to shoot around here you know the pook they must be the determination to do it right to you know and the techniques and everything but I think it's important that we find the right balance and we understand that uh that we look the emotional state and how the Handler is working correctly and everything but um like I also like how to save um understanding a little bit like like better the dog's personality and and and what it's like like cool enough or excellent we don't kill you know the good docs on the field just by expecting even a little bit more it's like with long attacks or anything else yeah yeah true we can have the Roku comes the same speed all the time comes with a very full grip but we can have another dog who comes like even speedier but it's not a competition of the speed but I think this can I think it's like a lot of handlers should also educate themselves with the rules a bit more and also touches that we um understand better like that where the points are coming like you mentioned before the speed and the flashiness but not sacrifice precision and then the confidence confidence too yes yeah like there are you know you know it's also like the confidence and the ability to focus I think that's something what I really actually would like to say is that like when we look about the dog in the trials like in obedience we need to see dogs who are able to focus on what they are doing and not the Super Speedy who are like all the time looking around you know we need because that is something so important that we don't need like hectic talks more we need Knox who are like we're willing to do what we ask from them but able to

like focus and concentrate because if you need if we lose this one what is left nervous you know yeah nervous stocks yeah so I think that is something that you feel judges are getting better right that better meaning like reading the dogs and knowing because they are the ones that like it or not the state where we are going they do they do and I think yes also I have been like seeing recently like one of the very good churches like working and I think that they have been talking about this because I think there was like a moment that like after 2010 I think it was like wow we can have like very active talks very energetic talks and then people didn't give attention about this kind of like like looking around hair thickness and so if the rock just was fast and then I think that now we have come back a little bit for this that hey we actually need dogs who can pick on who can focus who don't whine and who can still perform powerfully and I really love this that we have been even you know starting to focus on this more so you you like where we're going well of course but we have to also remember that I have seen like competitions like with very good churches recently right so like our our national championships for example we had a very good touch there uh he's going to church also in fmbb uh so kind of why I like it that many churches have been now at least talked about this that we shouldn't like only focus on the speed and yeah yeah that's a cool thing but still keeping this emotional state like there how do you feel they like I mean we we all feel the pressure of different animal groups of what is the dogs under too much pressure and what is you know like but how how much do you think those groups influence where our sport is going and should we follow everything that they want to see us yeah no I think that we I think is somehow especially important in our sport that people should understand that these stocks we train for this sport they love fighting that's their life like they like to take the challenges and so I think that for example when you talk about like a stick hits or something for our dogs that love this sport for them it's just like a challenge the joy of that they are waiting for it it's like yeah give me more I'm gonna give you more too and so and and then and somehow like this is something but I lack of understanding is that why we don't go and show to the politicians show to the people who don't do dog sports like look at our dogs how much they like like like like when I take my dog from the you know from the kennel before I brought it like to the field he was so happy he was like he was

like jumping around and he was like let me go there first now I'm like we have to go to pee first you know and he's just like it's like extremely happy I I never see him so happy ever before you know yes and and he's gonna get in a training field like you know the header is gonna challenge him he's gonna like you know hit him with the soft stick and he loves it but so it's like but that people shouldn't think dogs as a like even with humans we understand that we have different personalities some of us like different sports yeah we like figure skating and somebody like likes ice hockey exactly and then and they love it and and then and some don't and they have the same with dogs and we should never train a dog to this sport who don't like this and we know for sure dogs that but we can see it even before the stickies we say oh this is not the sport for your dog yes and he will never learn to love it and then we have dogs who does love it the most of their life you know like that's the best thing like what they can imagine in their dreams and I think that we just should like more educate people what we are doing instead of trying to like say oh oh we don't do this anymore because somebody says that it's harmful for the dog and I think I think we starting to understand that it's important to educate and and explain what we do yeah because otherwise we are living it to them to come to their own conclusions and they're so wrong about what we do yeah and I think we also shouldn't leave it to the clubs we should actually like unite dog trainers and and and start this kind of like a worldwide movement like what they have been now doing studying right now starting right now that that we don't expect that somebody else always does it for us because they don't it has to be us who react on this and show how much our looks love this sport and how good it is for our dogs and and to our relationship with them and and I think this is something what I think we should like fight more yeah we have to if we don't we will just keep following the demands that they put yeah where ultimately we will change the the sport will not have the element that we like and the dogs like and what the dogs like is the challenge of competition yeah and and you know you have this book in your library called like flow from my like a Mikhail yeah something like to kick me Hollow you know about the flow yes very early 1970s he was like he was actually like making researches about humans motivation and he found out that the humans were not the most happy when they were just like calm and relaxed but they were the most happy when they found the flow state

which means that you have you have to have a challenging task you have to feel that you have everything what it takes and then you have to feel some like disappointment on your way there and then you feel like so great when you can accomplish that yeah and I believe I'm actually getting Goosebumps because I know that's that that's the whole point and I'm the True Believer that when we talk about working dogs it's exactly the same to them like they don't live to be happy on the couch like there are many Force free trainers think that they are just like super happy when you just make them calm 24 hours in a day and you've overfeed them and you just make them like walking silently in the garden no they are the most happy when they have a challenging task and a purpose purpose overall purpose and they need to have like the feeling that sometimes it doesn't go right they get feedback you need feedback to find the flow and when they really find the flow that's what they find they fly they find it in obedience they find it in tracking they find it in protection and that makes them the most happy and I believe that they are much more happier than if we would just walking around the block on a flexi exactly feed and sleep yes yeah and and I and I understand that we have some dogs perhaps that the life is already so challenging task for them they are so fearful that you just have to make the life more calm for them and our dogs they don't need ever depressive medicines they don't need that because they are so you know they are brave dogs who love to who love the life and they love to challenge themselves and that's what makes them most happy good point this is the staff that need to win like our community needs to bring up like like we have to be on a mission to educate yeah and explain that because they like I mean you and I know the arguments they have they will be like oh no you you're selecting them purposefully to be doing this But ultimately if you didn't they wouldn't want to do it and this is all inhumane on a even deeper level than the training because you're breeding them to be these dogs we are pretty happy and brave dogs who enjoy the life which is much more human thing to do and more ethical than the breed dogs who are so fearful that they get like broken if you say them no you see my point right and and I think it's so inhuman and so so unethical the breed talks purposefully who are like already so fearful that you don't ever have to even like anyhow correct them because if you have a dog who loves their life who loves to explore things yes for sure you must say them sometimes no you can't do that but on the other

way hunt they are like okay well give me you're not what should I do then you know and then you just like ah and even like to go further with this even with those shy dogs I mean it can be it can be um I don't know golden retriever comes to mind but probably not the any any dog that's not necessarily A Malin or a Shepherd or whatever yeah and it's a little unsure even these dogs they can do a little bit of obedience and protection and tracking just like a insecure kid that goes to the gym and does some martial arts and and feels comfortable and confident with themselves right about children we give them Sports because that builds their self-confidence and we all know that if we just try to keep children sitting all day and and especially when we have like like dogs who children who have like some hyper activity and we just like try to keep them calm we even know from those interventions of the child education that they are more happy when they when we include more Sports to their school program even that helps them yeah and and also when you have more shy we give them like Hobbies we try to like encourage them to be like more Brave and and they are like a lot of biological factors that are similar with dogs and humans even we don't humanize dogs but this is one of them that we do exactly the same we give them like Mission we give them like sports to do and and we we uh give them resilience yeah your team lost not everybody can always win every day and that's how they get like you know this um there was this kind of um um like a psychologist um um who talk about like uh like he call it like um how to say um uh uh curling Parenthood I've heard that yeah yeah you know the curling like when you smooth the eyes that the food can go like like you know like yeah and they found out in many researches that those children who who never felt any adversities in the younger years they actually have like they have much more bigger frustration much more bigger problems in their life later and I believe it's the same with dogs I mean I have seen it like so many times at dogs that you never you're like afraid of like ever disappoint them yeah they have much more like bigger problems when they come adult it's normal that they say oh you can't do this today but instead I help you to find out the right solution and they learn to trust us they learn to overcome obstacles and they have much more happier life and then they can also use more emotions make them more happy yeah make the life more exciting because we can control them there is a book I always recommend and like at my school I I it's one of the recommended books yeah uh punished by

rewards yeah I think I've I've been Cohen or something like this and we can post it in the in the yeah later and like the the main takeaway from the book was that in humans with children which is translates immediately into dog training is that sometimes we fail because we are reinforcing we're giving reward to a kid for doing something that the kid already likes to do yeah and as we reward them over and over they start to now tend to do the thing that they originally love to do yeah they're doing it for the reward that they're getting from somebody and focusing and allowing them to creating something that hey you you like doing this let's make it even better instead of Sidetrack it into all let me give you money let me give you a new phone let me it's like yeah I know what you mean because that was exactly what I did with my first talk with my very first like when I was 14 years old and and I was like reading from the book that every time a new dog does like a pull outside give him a treat but before I read that book like like I read it like when he was like I was old I'm constantly like reading the books like and I remember that first he was so happy to come to him and I just praised him I was like yeah you were super nice super good boy or something and then I started to give like treat for him and then I suddenly realized after like one week that he wasn't anymore so happy about my praising he was just like expecting the you know the food and he was kind of like like and kind of like and then that was the first time and I realized something that rewarding the dog like by trade is not always solution you know kind of like okay it's a bit different thing but I understand exactly what you mean that sometimes and he was like kind of like expecting this and doing it only but not because of doing you know uh it's it's yeah I think it's like in in training some when when we build that expectation in the dog okay you gave me command give me my reward you give me command give me my reward yeah and we take away that interaction and enjoyment of just yeah you and I doing it yeah the engagement right the kind of the the the fun to interact with the human and and just love to do cooperation together and I think it's like like we talked before that uh like how to feel for example looked in the stage it is like oh I want to come next to you I want to do the meeting with you I want to look at your eyes and that's the best reward of course we also can reward from that you know and especially when it comes like harder or longer and everything later you know so we also maybe have to have the end reward and the end reward

doesn't uh only spoil the joy of doing it but if that's the only reward and we don't think about emotional communication at all then it's a bad thing so it has to be like like the interaction and training must be fun equally yeah with the reward the same thing even with the even when you give the dog the ball in my mouth oh I have my ball or you can have a hey I have my ball let's go right yeah like you have the ball wow we can both be proud of you look at what you have instead of just like give the pole toss the treat and then wait again like it's like it's like it's like erasing something so important from the training you know I I just thought of like I had I did this one time in a seminar it's a very cool story to to to show how important it is the emotion and who you are at the moment when you interact like I had I don't know where it was but I had person after person after person just saw like okay I'm giving you the treat so you should be happy like man this is not working out what do I do and of course I picked up a social dog that I can handle like I I will make your dog way more motivated and more intrigued to work with me for rocks and I literally went outside and grabbed kind of bigger Rock so he not swallowing them yeah and I'm like and sit oh there's the Rock and he's like what the [ __ ] is the rock I'm like no let's play his and he's trying to whatever but now you have this dog with a tail and everything he's like I wanna work with you yes it's no you cannot count on that magic of that hot dog or the ball on its own you have to you have to be present and real in that interaction yeah and that I I don't know that was a while back but I just somehow remember it um it's not the the presentation yeah you know but it's like it's like with people like if if we go to let's say we go to restaurant and becomes a waiter and he gives you the perfect meal what you want and he gives you the perfect drink what you want but if it's like a very nice waiter he's like she's or he or she you know they can be like very oh like how how are you right very simple did you like it and he's smiling or even more like they're like oh you made a really good choice with that what you ordered oh [ __ ] you ordered this okay thank you for your order yeah but the because we are social beings as like humans so we like the interaction and if everything is like the food was good the drink was good the service was very comfortable you you feel that you are like at home you know you feel like that you are appreciated and and there is an interaction is so much more you can forgive a lot yes it didn't go right exactly like maybe your steak was like

medium Plus instead of medium rare but you are still like yeah but you know they felt they really understood me yes and I think docs really want that the handlers and the dog owners understand them and if you can give them this feeling that I got you she really understands me I'm the special boy here you know and that's what makes her day and also it makes our day so much funnier to also our trade as as for trainers and just like tossing the ball and be like right here's the ball for you pause it never works and we see it all the time oh yeah that's how it goes how about anything being pick anything and you're running into problem some the dog is not clear where do you how do you any any specific strategy more General than the specific behavior how do you handle when you know it's clearly like it's not that it's just a confusion maybe maybe he's getting it okay I think this is what you want me to do and it keeps doing it over and over but it's not what you want him to do do you how do you isolate how do you work with problems uh this is in general yeah this spends a little bit like always in the situation uh so one can be that do we have like do the dog has like other chances to do it like um how to say this um when we have a young dog let's say that the environment is like like we are inside the house there are no distractions and I have a dog who wants to try again and again and again I can ignore it and let the dog try again because I know that he will try again yeah and then he can he can succeed and I can reward the behavior but he tries but then we can have in another environment where we have like a lot of other possibilities to do it wrong and and and something that uh how to say I usually give feedback and the feedback means that uh like I I'm like thinking it a bit on this way that I can either give feedback which means that I can uh give positive feedback and negative feedback like no don't do that I don't want you to do that but I can do it in different ways I can do it in a way that The Rock fills it like a punishment or that The Rock just faced like a feedback because if we think about what the punishment actually means it means that we are adding something uncomfortable for the dog's life yeah the rock must feel like unpleasant after I I I use punishment but if I say just like no don't do this like no like this voice for example I popped a leash like hey don't do this but this rock is like oh what and you can see from the doctor I see it's more like oh what do you want me to do so it was not something uncomfortable The Rock didn't feel unpleasant it was more like stopping his behavior and say hey pay

attention and The Rock was like oh what do you want me to do and I say oh look at me do like this instead and I can reward him then of course after this or I can give him a new mission to do like sit or jump again or whatsoever um let's say the rock is like chomping over the hurdle and and he touches the hurdle and I'm just like no come here let's do it again and rock is then feeling a bit that's more like a punishment because the rock feels like oh uh I didn't get my toy which I expected to get yeah but then let's say uh and then I do it okay sit again jump again another dog jumps without touching the hurdle and then I reward him so this was more like a punishment because like failed it like oh you didn't give me something what I expected right yeah he gets a bit disappointed but not so badly and then I erased about it it's important yeah it's important I can't revert him from all Behavior if I want to improve some other behavior and then another situation can be that my dog heals he's very active he's very good but something unexpected happens a noise for example outside and he looks at there and I can turn right I can make a little pop on the leash so dog is like what and he looks at me I don't say anything because I don't want to increase some negative emotions in him and make him feeling unpleasant it's more like pop and he's like what I'm like wow that's exactly what you should be doing and I praise him and I reward him and this is more like a feat Buck he was like it's more like if you watch it there and I'm like hey look what's there there's a rainbow and you're like thanks for showing me this rainbow I would have I wouldn't have noticed you know so it's more like this and then and and then and this is what I do like in some situation and I bought my dog but then let's say that uh after my dog already understands this and he's very very good I can also make it one time if there are like like still keep on doing sometimes he looks around in the healing I can make it a bit more stronger so that the dog is like I can't make a right turn one pop and The Rock has already covered them again one more and like wow now so there was a little more slider like it was a little unpleasant feeling for the dog like which took like one second and then I can make make a super reward for him after that and then then that's more like hey I don't want you to do this again if I want to add it more unpleasant so it's possible to do it like one day for the dog to like stop completing the doctor doing the mistake what I want him to like stop doing and then I want to increase his good behavior so so you see my point yeah so

there can be like different ways of like interacting with the dog uh I have to always try to I always aim to be very um fair for the dog and always like not punishing him when he like he wants to do the healing right he loves it but he just still thinks that some some kind of Destruction is more intriguing yes and then one day I can say hey this is something I have told you now a few times but now we have to stop like reacting of this we have to take it out of his mind yeah and then it's like very clear and then the rest of the Rock's life usually it's like I don't have to do it again he chooses like oh actually that was not something that I want to do and that is something that I really want to do but first he's of course motivated like a couple of years for this so it's very simple choice for the dog you know it's like with humans you know tell me about the school or is it the school how it's like online lessons you do right or you have um I have done like um like like online lectures um some of my my own dog training videos where I can explain why I'm doing this and so on um or if somebody wants to go into it yeah it's like um I'm like um now when I wrote the book so I'm gonna do like more online like like online courses in the future so we're just like uh opening it like like we will change some things because I felt that people need to have a bit more like interaction like more uh so we will do like four weeks courses yeah like how to become like a better dog trainer like how to use your emotions and so and this year will start like in a few months um and I think that I will change a little bit more for this direction so we have like like we have some online lectures there and some some videos available like hundreds of my own dog training videos available but I think we will go more for this online courses yeah do you like the seminars like going going places or you would rather be home um well actually like I really I'm a social person so I also like love to meet people and and it's nice to go to see different or cultures and interact with people but of course like um now I have a young dog and I also want to trade my own dog he needs me so I'm gonna focus in the next few years more my own dog training and I will do a little bit more online training than life seminars because my dog needs me yes the new dogs are coming we're gonna be on the field back again and so looking forward for this and I'm so happy that we have like we all have like now like so many like cool young dogs yes yes and that's the that's the I think the very interesting part of the what we do because we you know we are

not the same people we were yeah and we train and we improve and and then we meet again and then again and it's a this is the the most interesting part of the whole thing but it's also like it's also interesting that we often see the same people there again and again yes and again but it's also that what I want to see also like if I can say like one thing for like beginner trainers who maybe watch this podcast is that look how we look our emotional communication more than our technical details because once you can communicate emotionally well with your dog you can mix different methods always what fits best for your dog but that's why we can always bring the dogs our new dogs there again and again and like like how many times you have been there in devotions I don't know a lot like some records probably yeah and and so it's like and why you can do that is because your emotional communication is so right clear and dogs can really read you understand you and they want to work with you you know what's the coolest part of for me at the Championships of course watching the watching the competition it's yeah it's interesting sometimes I watch sometimes I try not to because it kind of messes with my mind but I really like watching training that that day before like the what do you call it the general practice Yeah Yeah I think that's one of the coolest thing to see and not even it's not like you're trying to obviously there is not much that you see uh of the training secrets so to speak yeah yeah but it's the how everybody feels at the moment before competition and what they do it's super intriguing like I I whenever I can it's not so often because of course we're busy trying to prepare our on those and staying whatever but every time just sit down on the bleachers and watch that practice of different teams it's for me it's very it just is equally interesting as the actual competition yeah because then you you're like okay I see what's up or I see how you feel all right you know and if there is this thing about training that's always interesting when um you look so good in training and somehow you just cannot put it at that time when it's important and that means your training is not sound because you're training for that training and not for the actual show time yeah there must be something like two different right in your training then because to be honest like if I think about like my composition performances my dogs have always done exactly what I have taught them to do they haven't done any they haven't been like really big surprises really right I mean if there has been something and there has been of

course I don't mean that my dog have been like errorless in competition not at all but all those things I could have predicted to happen and it has been very clear why did it happen why the doctor this is me is this mistake and also then it's easy also to fix them you know but it's not something that my doctors does some random weird things you know in the competition correct it it's a stuff it's this thing about training really training for the competition versus training to look good in the training yes yes and it's so tempting to look good in the training but you know that everything revolves around something that the dog has it cannot take it on the competition field and then they feel like lost and a trainer at that point it's like well and then the different excuses come yes yeah but never come to that conclusion that I'm not really training for the competition I'm just training to look good at the training yes and like my first training maybe ever or it looks not the best for sure was like before I hit like 100 points in obedience with health a long time ago and not that I was like super happy myself even like I don't believe like generally that it was my best for four months though because I saw all the mistakes like yes kind of here yeah yeah and I I kind of failed like things that wasn't visible in the in the videos later but I could feel like I I like some other trial like better personally but it's still like that my training they never look like completely faultless you know I can have sometimes I can do proposely like training that everything goes like super fun because my dog needs it just to push the confidence and now we don't look any errors but also those training sessions where we have the mistakes they are needed to improve the behavior yes what I find problem and it's not even just for our sport but for all dog training going on is that as a community or industry or whatever you want to call it dog trainers are just like with any profession you know like you can have a hairdresser that should not be a hairdresser gonna just burn your scalp five times and eventually you know they should not be practicing that and we have in dog training bad training going on in some places and it's uh it almost so frustrating it and it's sad at the same time that because somebody does something really shitty to a dog it translates to everybody else and I am now put in that same position as I'm one of those people that do these shitty things to dogs you know and we have no no structure and no way of and I'm not even thinking I don't know maybe policing each other is not a good thing because then who is the one to say what

is okay and what is not okay um but I I just hate it when when um somebody see something on YouTube or Facebook or whatever and being ringsport or igp or or any training and it's like oh look what they do and then make that Grand conclusion that this is what everybody does and the one side is US educating what we do and how we do but we never at least I don't think anybody ever has the courage to kind of say well publicly We Talk Amongst each other but to to say hey this is not right which we we don't support this you know what I'm saying like this I think if if there was a some way that this can happen I think we would be better trainers and we would protect our Sports um and even even more it goes even deeper than this because you have trainers that do this kind of stuff and for some reason many many other trainers think that this is actually what we should be doing so it's it's almost like oh I'm also very hard on my dog because that's what we do it's like that's not what we do I think the the problem what we have is this that when we talk about dog and human relationship it's like with humans there is like no one similar relationship than the other so every relationship every connection is unique so so is the dog training like they try to divide always like the bad and the good you know and that the force-free order Force Trainers for example that's that's all like there are as many training methods as we have humans in this world who own the dogs and even each one of those human train each different dogs like differently so basically like we have millions of ways of interacting with a dog and not just two ways you know right we can do so much bad just we we all good dog trainers we know this that if we even we wouldn't use for example any physical Corrections we could just really damage stock like mentally like it's like it's like how you call it psychologically psychologically it's like with technologically we're foreigners so we say we say pee in France yeah exactly yeah exactly we say like obviously no dope okay so no doubt we will do that psychologically we can damage the dog really hardly uh by just like like like like not rewarding them when they expect that and and and uh and just like um being wrong in timing not using emotion when we shoot just giving a treat that can be also very damaging like in many situations on the other hand around we also have like traders who can use like a very very hard physical Corrections without the dog understanding it and we can also damage the dog very badly but it's the same like with humans we can mentally and psychologically damage a human even more than physically

sometimes you know we can make a lot of pressure yeah you know like like keep get taking their freedom away there are a lot of things for that and um and I think that's that's a that's the first thing what we should understand that that it's not only two ways there are millions of ways so even like even the people who train very similar and an idol even they train a little bit differently yes and so that's the first thing but I I kind of like I I really understand what you say that it's hard to like stand up for something like what's like acceptable to do and what is not acceptable to do because in the end we should always aim to look for the good for the for the dog I think if there are better ways to train this particular dog like more dog friendly ways we should always go for that if possible but then there are also some situations where we know that there is no other way to fix the Rock's Behavior then kill the dog you know euthanize him yes but if we can solve the dog's problems with physical Corrections for example then we should go for that way because the death is always worse yes than fixing the dog's behavior and then give a good life for the dog so they're like it's like a it's a kind of there are like ethics are very difficult topics to discuss about because yeah the first free idea is a very such a good intention that goes off later on I've had I've had like sometimes like I and it's hard to to pause people's videos you just never want to do that but I I recently had some um two trainers I wouldn't even say male female from another country and they send me a video of a dog and it's like hey we're like really doing all for free and and they were doing a down stay with the dog and I don't think even was for any port or might have been because I just saw a you know that short video and they were so proud that they don't use any aversive no nothing you know it's Force free and the dog looks so miserable there like he looks like it's been just so so uncomfortable yeah but the fact that there is no physical the direction that is for free they somehow explain themselves cannot see that yeah the dog is like really not in a good place yes and I saw exactly the same like there was like a Finnish uh kind of like a pita organization it's called like write for the animals and they published a video how the dog training should be done instead of like physically like correcting the dog and they used like a Malinois and it was obviously I think some foreign Trader who did it so it wasn't the finished Trader they have taken it from some video bank or somewhere I don't know where they even found that video but

this person was doing like down from motion with the dog and using this kind of like a touching stick or something like that you know and the duck was like the whole body language of the dog was like so unpleasant like you could see the dog was feeling pressure and The Rock was like years behind and very closed going down and I'm like couldn't they found like any better video like promoting there because if my dog would ever show that emotion in the training I would feel so bad for my dog no matter what's my even trading method but I would see that the dog is not enjoying what he is doing and they just couldn't see that so the idea lochi goes like in front of the dogs like real emotions you know like yes and that is something but we should always I think we all actually aim for the same goal kind of just gonna say yes we are truly wanting exact same thing but we're so disconnected yeah of oh you are the bad person yes and he's like come on yeah and we actually should like like like we should like talk more together we should like interact more because the more we would do actually like like a real life interaction yes we could show we could maybe because eventually we we all want that our rocks feel good yeah yes ultimately we are but dividing people like that's how the war propaganda Works ultimately right it's like that you have to make the enemy like like faceless they must be so bad people but they must be kind of like killed because otherwise people wouldn't be able to kill them and the same is a little bit now when we have this kind of war between like you know trainers who were you know use like sometimes Corrections and then people who like we don't ever correct our dogs whatever they do and it's like it's like uh it's kind of like uh it's it's not good for ultimately it's bad for the dogs the dogs are suffering the most from this and I think we could actually learn from both sides some things knowledge all around yes all around yeah and we should respect respect always like more and interact more instead of like dividing people like you know in our like in the states there is you know there are a couple of organizations or maybe they're more that you know they're the force free like the one is that apdt and they do really anything possible to bring a very high wall between it's like if you want to join our organization you cannot have this equipment this equipment you cannot be this kind of trainer you cannot be balanced you cannot whatever yeah it's such a wrong strategy it is like bring those people in the way they are yeah and then show them something better because who is that trainer that if you

show me something good like let's say I always give this example let's say just as we're right here right now and we watch some video and it happened to be in Hong Kong and we we can recognize something new and something interesting we're gonna want to know right we're not we're like how do you do that let's go to Hong Kong or let's get that person here we we immediately interact yes and when we put this wall it's like well no you're very wrong but you cannot come in because that's inclusive for only for free if you if you want to gain our hearts and bring us in show us I'll gladly do the best I can yes for my dogs and I don't see it anymore yeah we are very keen to learn and I think you know if you want to believe in science well what the science says about learning is that we humans we learn the best in a positive encouraging environment you know when when we feel like safe in safe in my like psychologically safe environment we learn the best and I I really lack of understanding that if this is the best way of teaching dogs and humans when why don't we use that way of teaching humans to learn like better ways why would you ever choose to teach a dog by pushing him first down showing how stupid the dog is sorry how wrong the dog is doing and then start to pray in the dark like step by step like okay because of my Mercy I can show you something new you wouldn't because you know that your rock would be forced to learn that and it would be never really like desire to do what you want and then I'm really lacking understanding why would we do the same for humans because ultimately Skinner they were like and those people who were like making those research is about animals they made it to benefit humans you know what we can learn from animals we can actually use with humans about learning yes yes that was the whole point yes it was a whole point so I'm like I'm lacking understanding like like because I have learned like how do I how do I became a world champion was like participating to all top trainers seminars and trying to learn I always look the best part of their work and trying to learn from them and every every time that I have a chance I do this and and no matter about the sports I have I have invited to Finland like like obedience world champions like fciopians world champions to give seminars and I'm and I have learned from them I actually gonna have a podcast with with her I um I'm not gonna give the name right now yeah or should I yeah you should Eric says we shouldn't we should give a surprise but but I I you know one of the yeah yeah but this is the thing it's collaboration we have to collaborate and

respect and learn yes and it's not about my way or the highway it's like maybe it is your way but if you come up down look down on me and say well science says I'm I am like okay science says but let's go and do I I want to do it that way and now you you are like no you're you're already a bad person you cannot change okay yeah that's uh it cannot be more wrong than that no I mean that's like so the wrong approach and yeah and I I'm really willing to like interact with with different style of trainers you know and um and somehow we always find a good way when it when we're like this when we're not on the keyboard but yeah we actually say hello hey I'm I'm Ivan I'm here and next thing you know we have common grounds we all like dogs we all look for the best of the dogs yes and and that's already a perfect start yes and it will lead for so many cool things how do we break that that's uh it's a it's a hard one this one and the other one where where you know you like every once in a while some some crazy stupid video with somebody just helicoptering a dog it's like what are you doing yeah and on top of what are you doing it's like don't put me in the same yeah like don't act like I'm not that person and it is so unfair to expect that because somebody else does something you know you have two hands there's another person who has two hands and does something really bad with his hands to the dog and expecting that you do the same with your hands right right right exactly but there is so many good things in in everywhere in dog training like when you think about five years ago 10 years ago 20 years ago like we are progressively getting so good and there is who knows where we're gonna be in in another 10 years as far as how we train but we have improved so much and we are so aware of of appreciating the dogs and the Dignity of the dog and and you know like let me talk about the hands which can do cool things and bad things uh and and even we will see a person who does some bad things with their hands to the dog then instead of like going and saying like oh you horrible human being you shouldn't do that instead of that we could go there if we have a better solution we could say you know what I would have a really good solution to do this like better with your dog like like or not even like saying it on that way but I can say I have a solution to this problem to solve it with the way that your dog feels better let me show it to you would you like to be would you be interested in that I'm I'm pretty sure that if we really have the solution to do it better and we can show it to those people instead of like judging them and humiliating them

we could help them more yeah I mean I mean even like like there have been like a lot of like researches about like I I think even like people in the prison that that who have done some obviously bad things in their lives to the other people and and and then if we actually instead of like thinking that they will be like convicted for for the rest of their lives if we try like re-educate them showing them a better way to you know handle those situations and and giving them like a purpose of their life and so on they can actually come back and be much more like uh better like in um how to say integrating uh for the society right instead of just like saying that you know you are doomed for whole of your life and that sooner we do that but we have to have the solution out the more we are like no you're you're a bad person then what else do they have yeah and to be a bad person and continue that but I think the most important is to really give the real Working Solutions not just giving them like empty hopes you know yes you have to give like like what to actually do and that is something that what I'm missing like so much like uh for example in my country that when we try to educate people like about ethical dog training is that actually show videos how to do it so the real life trading how to do it better and then you have to see the results yes you know and not just like talking about some abstract things it has to be like real solutions how often do you go and give seminars uh like last year I think I did something like 25 right let me know which is crazy I used to do so many too the reason people invite you for seminars is because they see something special and they want to learn it this is human nature we starve to be better but they see first the results right exactly it's like no I'm I'm the best I'm better than the others no I don't say I'm better than the others I just show what I can do yes and then they invite me and I would actually hope the same and if we were to do exactly this which is the most natural way of moving forward there will be no Sciences or let's ban this or whatever it's like we are all moving in the right place but we are all searching for the way yeah very quickly it can happen yeah and and definitely because we care about our dogs and our dog's emotional state we actually would like to go there always with the most dog friendly way yeah why wouldn't we yeah why would not right yeah and and even that that if it's like unfriendly way for the dog dog would never show good results really like in the training and competitions if it's like unfair and dogs are the like like dogs are like

always showing something in their body language you know they can speak very well themselves if the training is good or bad it's one of the good things about our sport you know they don't lie because it's like no that's that dog enjoys what we are doing yeah I mean dogs don't fake and and I mean we've evolved as I said like looking at videos from years ago that's what we knew that's really what we knew I had this uh podcast with helmetry a few months ago because um I don't know we were looking the same thing like we're we're watching like gold Trucking I don't it was actually with some of my friends here and let's let's invite somebody and it's like what could you even fight let's invite somebody that's good at it even if it's a different take but it's so clearly a good good way and so we invite him we could invite somebody else if it's not just empty words and salad of what who says and what is better but it's like shown like you will get my undivided attention I would want to learn from you man I'm gonna go to whatever place on Earth you are I want to know it you know and and we so so so much we have advanced and we we're going forward but we are getting more and more like this split because of some strange but I think it's where you aim at because if you aim for the good of the dog then you want to interrupt but if you're if you want to only have the power if it's not about the drugs code if it's about the power and about like War you know like your own interest only not the dog's interest not the other people's interest or so then it's always like then you want to have the the like dividing people you know it's it's like that's the proper kind of how it has always been working when you want to make war you have to build this big ball and it's human nature for us to yeah to do that but but I think that because you don't want to like like you don't get any you are not here because of the power you are here because you love this sport you love these These dogs and you you love just interacting interacting with them that's why you want to also interact with people to become better in that but I think that is something that we have to always look like the benefits like why somebody is doing something what's the goal of it what's the what's the what's the real goal you know behind everything like the same like what happened early this month you know like I I just cannot sorry guys but I I can't mention anything more than what I'm gonna say but for right now um but you know when we were talking with the people that came about making them the study comparing the different styles of training positive and and some of our safe training yeah

and we come to the table and we all have different a little bit kind of like uneasiness but then we talk then we have a drink then we get the dogs out and then we realize we're all the same we're in the Australia yes and we had the most amazing time yeah and I don't care what the study gonna show as long as we are on the same path of doing the right thing for the dogs ultimately but it's to show you how being having this conversation is so cool like I try sometimes with them it's been only one person and hats off to him um Michael shikashu is like a force-free and with aggression but it's very well known in that Community it's the only person that has the courage to sit and talk with me yeah and it was a beautiful conversation guess what the like the the this extreme group like the extreme group yeah they're like oh you're talking to him you're giving him a platform to to spill this bad stuff and and pollute your mind and it's like man we're just talking because we want to be better and we want to understand each other and you are trying to separate and divide for no reason and and the crazy thing is that even after like this broadcast I know that in my home country in Finland they will be somebody's gonna give a hard time they will be saying that look what she's doing there she sits with somebody who is using like a certain kind of like trading tools what we don't accept and what we think is like unacceptable yeah and that's what they're going to do and and uh and it is so crazy that because of this we can get like like a like um some people get so crazy about it that they're like uh threatening our lives and and and yes this is this is like slightly extreme like like ultimately that you have to choose that whether you speak what you think and you interact and you try to like make um the best for the dogs and then they are like people who want to like ruin your life because you just happened a lot of dogs and train them it's just and because you put everybody in the same table cop it's like yeah no like there's yeah there is good and there is bad let's focus on okay this is good let's let's bring it out and teach the knowledge and and then this is good and that's again going back to why the sport is so evolved in in a good way in my opinion igp to where right now if you have a very good Training that makes the dog makes everything but it's emotionally not in the right mindset he cannot make he's not competitive anymore yes this is such a brilliant way of saying hey yeah you can do it this way but that's not what we want yeah there is a better way okay well who can teach me that better way and then we move on and we move on but

if you say well there is a better way but you can come and learn that yeah or there is a better way but actually when it's time to show me the better way it's nothing better I remember even that was a very long time when I came to to you and we made that seminar and because of my training without conflict it kind of fooled some people that it was forced free yes and there was this woman and she's for free and she's grabbing the dog and she's hysterically like killing and just like red and just foaming like but this is not for free yeah like what the [ __ ] I'm like okay and and I don't remember but I was like okay we can I can show you a much better way still for free but that's what you're doing is actually oh man yeah and oh it's all a matter of interacting between trainers yeah not dividing and and there must be like so many researches about this that how good actually it is to sit together and and and respect the others and and just like that's the best thing reminds me of that uh older Heineken commercial I don't know if you've seen no very [ __ ] cool commercial where they bring so they interview a bunch I'm gonna put this on the link for everybody but they interview a bunch of different people so one is gay one is lesbian one is um she's just black white what you know just like the most common conflicts that we have right yeah yeah and they interview them individually and they're like no I would never this is the last they're the horrible people and and everybody right and then they put them together they split them two by two and they don't know who is who but they put them exactly with the person that they it's like just like you yeah should not exist right and they give him some silly tasks like we gotta build something but I need you to help me to do it otherwise it cannot happen and then they get together and just beautiful and then of course Heineken right but it was a very very like a by the textbooks psychological how how we function it's like this is what makes it not how you talk on your own like you interact with somebody and next thing you know at the end of the the whole commercial they're like well give me your number because we got a state fish now you know like it's just changed it for half an hour they changed their perception of each other yeah because of it and we we got to be able to do that yes and I I really love because in a lot of my seminars I have like people from agility from obedience from Rescue so I don't have only igb people in my seminars and especially in abroad and I I just love it because in the end it's all about how to communicate with dogs it's not about

what you want to teach with your dog it teach to your dog or something and and also the respect and I respect all the trainers all around the world all sports whatever they do even if you don't even train the dog for the sports but you are just cool with communicating with your dog yeah and and I think if we can we can learn from so many people I like like like they often ask me like who is the person um that was your mentor yes and that's a did you have that person and I'm like well like um in my book I'm describing two of them like who who like affected like the trainer I became I didn't have like a one particular person I would say that that person is like over everybody who was my teacher or something and I learned from all of them who I trained together but uh there was one woman and I want to give a lot of credit for her and she wasn't successful like at the time she had like brilliards yes and I just admired her like she had like a dog who has been afraid of like gunshots and afraid of a bit people and everything and I was admiring her way of communicating with her dog and she was threatening in the same group of searching like searching docs where I trained and I just like loved her like I always use her as my lost helper in searching like she was the assistant there because she was so good with her emotions and I observed how she make her like training how she took her intonations and everything and and it's like um like that sometimes you don't even have to have somebody who is like better you know like like more successful than you are but you just find out that something what she does is very special and and and it's something where I start to look more clear and I was adapting many things and like many of those funny words I have given you know those Praises like this flirt and driving instructor and and put the voice and so on they are not from her and she would be laughing for them now if she would hear this unfortunately she died in a car accident but she you know many of them were originating like like from her which is completely unaware and I think it's just like yeah I think the best thing is just like interact with people learn when you see a good dog training and never stop evolving yourself always like we can always learn and we want to it's not that we don't we need to learn it's like we want to do it because we want to I mean my motto is like I want to kind of like one of them is like I want to become like a better dog trainer every day like that's like kind of an ultimate goal it's not like winning here and there it's just like that I love this what I'm doing and I want to become

better off that I'm thinking of mine like my from my all-time dog training like the person that really kinda and it was similar like your situation just somebody that just said something one time and it's like yeah you you're it was my first day sending Bulgaria in a club and it's like yeah but the stroke breath he had oh he I had I had a no the person she had a she had a Shepherd like it was all at that time this is like German Shepherd yeah yeah this was only 80s yeah so Eastern Europe so we all had these German Shepherds and Jack Germans that was like nobody knew nothing else and just like you know you always don't question when something is shown but it has to make sense and if it doesn't make sense you have to ask because you have to understand it and if you cannot understand that they're either not good at explaining or it really doesn't make sense and that stayed with me and it's it's still today it's one of the most important things like when you I mean you know like we can watch now Eric go on the field and we can recognize if something is happening or not and if something is happening I know that you and I gonna go with the fence and we're gonna be watching and then we're going to be talking right and and but it has to like I think dog training the the point is to to make it so simple that somebody that has no idea understands what's going on yeah it's like you know I think it's some of the quotes of Einstein You know when he said something like eight years old right the six years old if you cannot explain it to a six-year-old you're not good that something like uh very similar or something like that if you can make it like simple enough to understand you don't actually understand what's going on you know something similar like that yeah exactly like that if you really know your stuff you're not gonna make you can make it so simple yes and that everybody can understand that and when we show a dog it's so simple to understand that there is the connection there is a thing you're like you know like we were there like I think the day before yesterday or yesterday uh me Greg some other I I think we were watching like Yani doing opinions with rappy and he was doing like but he did his first three Rick was like now I stop talking exactly it was like this was like really cool you know yes you don't you don't need to be a science says it's like no what what are you doing I need to know yes that was just like enough to stop you like get make you like breath like breathless like I think we have to keep trying to unite yeah I think that's that's it I think that's a mission no matter no matter what so what the others are doing

we keep uniting people yeah yes those who have the best interest for the dogs and their well-being and for the Dog Sports we try to unite them I think we shouldn't focus on the bad things we should be like those who focus on like I mean we also need kind of like like in every society you need to have the armies and you need to have police yeah that's how the Life Works we have to have sometimes you have to put some like limits for sure but as what we are I think that we should be the people who like uniting the others you know and there is a big number in the middle that want to yes they're just lost of the two extremes and it's like yes I think I think that we just like should bring people together and give them options you can choose from you know like we say this is the way how we do it that's how he does it that's how she does it and give a lot of information educate people United people have like give them like uh show them what is fun right with dogs and and and and also show how much fun our dogs have with us and I think that's like something what I think could be like or one of our life missions that's what we do yeah I mean that's really like I at this point I think we bought our I mean of course we enjoy competing because that's in us right we have to but I feel that we need to we we have to keep helping the people in the middle that are searching yes and even the competing like why you compete why I compete like I compete to actually prove that my method works it's not that I'm competing against each other yes I'm competing that I'm not I want to show that the way what I'm doing actually functions yes that's uh yeah exactly that's that's very cool yeah and when I go to competitions to be like to be really honest is like I don't care whether you win or I'm second if I'm second I'm third I have still Pro I have still proved that the way how I have been like training my dog is like fully functional right there I'm still in the podium yes and so for me it's like and I'm always competing against like myself like how but how good I can do I don't compete against others I don't I don't think about others and this is why it's also so cool that we all have our little flavors of how we do things yes and of course I watch you you watch me and we take stuff that's that's also very cool thing but ultimately you're like okay let me test my philosophy I'm fmbb 2023 here we go we do it we don't do it but it's a very cool way of hey I'm putting the work I think I want to know if what I'm thinking and what I'm trying and what I'm working if it holds the ground against all those top trainers or it doesn't and then you

adjust and then you make it better or then that's the beauty of the sport yes like to have that freedom and like but then also sit like this and have you come here and I I go to Europe and we train together still and it's what this is the beauty thing but it's also because I I have a great respect for people you know who can do it and and who stocks are showing like you know the right emotions and and wholly love dogs right yeah and it's not like I don't feel it like they are my competitors I feel I think that they are like on my side right yes and you want to kind of like hey I'm watching and paying attention right yeah yeah and then there is yes sometimes even even today I mean it's not it's rare but even today we see some training that is really outdated it's like okay yeah I mean hopefully you wake up and you grow up and you try better yeah or you stay that way but if you stay that way ultimately you're going out you're not relevant anymore exactly that's the like the the market and the evolution the evolution is going like that yeah instead of from top down no we we know a better way yeah nobody buys this like we're not well I don't know but but it's good we keep going I think like after this like I have been so grateful to have like this one month here like my dog has done like so great proquest I have had like so good dog training moments but also like other moments like I have been enjoying here uh so much and uh I think Florida but it's also about this safe environment you know right that you feel that that you you kind of like you have people around you who kind of [ __ ] want the best for you and for your dog and it's just like it has been like so um I don't know it's like a higher quality in English like a blast or something yeah like like to to just like enjoy the dog training like and I have been also very happy to see all of you working here with your dogs and so I think my dog needs now like rest for a few weeks at home which is perfect it's perfect when I go the Brazil and then I come home and I'm like fresh to start like training him also in Finland when do you think I mean this this spring or summer you're gonna start to put in titles now oh for sure not oh not yet oh for sure how do you do it I think it's gonna take like um I hope I could do like pH in the end of this year that's why we're so different I'll tell you my story I know and I hope I possible I I try to bring him to the trials like igp-1 igp2 and then for the Nationals like Belgian Shepherd Nationals and then I would hope for 2025 I would be in the okay you know in a team so this year for sure not because I want to make him like so confident

uh you know like in all disciplines that um yeah I feel better to go to the combinations not taking much chances basically exactly right yeah and I usually bring Milo to igb one when he's like ready for igp3 you know like like emotionally and everything and so and then he then I hope yeah he's gonna be like um maybe tonight when we sit down and for a drink or something I'll show you my BHS they're all filmed like we live or we jungle with I really love that guy when you would like to make so much fun every because it's like like if somebody see me and doesn't know me they're like that guy has no Channel well what is he doing kind of like you know uh I don't know if you know them but like the formula one back in uh there was Nikki louder and Cena Yeah and Santa was the guy that very oftentimes he's just like uh talented but kind of you know and and louder was like a Germans like I I know what I'm doing and then and I think there's something like this and that's also that's also what is very interesting and yeah and makes the sport interesting because we all have a different ways yeah yeah yeah yeah and I think it's like for me it's like I have to be like like I was so shocked like when Johnny was already doing his itp2 you know ITV I mean so young dog and I'm like I can't do that because like for example even the Guardians in protection I want to practice this like half year that I walk and I go back and I walk and I go back and I walk yeah it has to be so solid because you know I feel like that but it can be also something about the I mean I wouldn't like to say this because I come from Finland where that we have the most equal it's one of the most equal countries like gender equal countries yeah yeah in the whole world but I feel it's like that that there is still something like like women and men a little bit like this that um if I fail I know what she's saying yeah I don't like failing yeah and I I'm like I'm like I have to be like 200 solid that my rock is like prepared for those situations and then when I bring my dog to the trial it's like it's okay like even one year later right you know and when I count now like okay right now he became like he's exactly two years and zero months so I'm thinking okay 2024 is gonna be three years and I'm gonna be he's gonna be four and a half years old if I get to the World Championships he's the same than Helga you know like 2025 and and Helga was the same like he was four and a half years old and then I have like when he's four years old five years old six years old so seven years old and I'm more like I'm I'm so much more looking forward like that we would have like the career

at competitions with assless mistakes as possible right you know right right because I feel like the people will just kill me if I was yes that's the that's the that's the pressure of being already everybody looking up to and everybody expecting certain outcome yeah yeah yeah it's a tough one yeah it's because yeah when I did Jungle in the 90s no it was not 90s it was early 2000. he was not three years old he was vice Champion it's okay one day wdf doll breed he won the Malinois and he plays second and it was not even three years old but he was that kind of dog and maybe I I was just like oh yeah with training and we're competing I didn't take it so seriously right I mean I would go on the field in a world championship and everybody is going to get drinks and nobody pays attention it's like some American whatever but then the next one rock it was called was 2010 and I tried to do the same with him and he just I I feel so bad because he he had so much talent but I just throw him in the alliance so soon that he wasn't ready he was not ready after the competition I'm like okay that was really stupid and now I have this ambition of course to because he wasn't broken he just we had a very poor show because of my oh yeah he's just like jungle and he wasn't and then somebody offered me a lot of money and I've never sell a dog they just did one time and I I sold him and even today bugs me because I didn't went back with him because he had a he had the potential you know and now so so with me it's very different it's like I sometimes I feel like I'm taking my time and sometimes I'm like well let's go and I think with Tarzan now I'm very kind of more like you like I'm no no 2025. we will meet there [Laughter] yeah but this is also that's part of the game the interesting part of the game and I kind of I kind of feel you because uh with ratu I was like I was like doing a lot of things I have like a lot of pressure and I know people said that she can make it like you know like I tell you my experience like with my first talk they told me it looks good in a training but she can never do it in the competitions well I did it she had like like my dog had we need this kind of motivation yeah so my dog had like one of the best obediences in his time like in Finland you can even count the igp dogs among even he was competing in the rescue sports but he had a very nice like focused engagement yeah and like eye conduct that didn't break you know that and that time that was something you know in 1990s that was a big deal big deal and then and then they said to me yeah he can do it he can do it like with a with a like a shoreline door but then

she gets like the Malinois working like Malinois her obedience will end up by like The Rock will not like let out the ball because when she has a heart has no idea how to do that heart okay you know and then there was like of course like Helga and he'll give us like super successful I think in in a Finnish history he was like like five times in the podium in the world Champs like Vice world champion third place third place Vice world champion and then eventually he was a world champion and then um and then they said yeah Helga was a special dog but she can never do it and I always can say it oh there is always something she can she can do it she can do it without another dog and then I had like ratu and we'd rather I felt like a lot of pressure and I really enjoyed his writing too he was like Mortal landed in some things uh like like he had a food drive he was like very natural for striking um and also easy for obedience with food like like teaching because of the full drive was like better um but he had like we have often talking about like with my friends about this kind of like a channel that if there was a tunnel and in the end there was like a tug what the dog wants and Helga's pipe was like very strict in ratus five we had like holes you know like things like that like the sunlight comes and it distracts him a bit from the dark however so he had like not that good Focus than Helga his father but he had like other benefits for sure and so so I trained him very in hurry he was easy dog for that because he was adaptive he had like High full drive and he was more energetic dog and Helga was uh and and then I trained him very quickly and he was like in the world championships when he was like three years old and he was the youngest Talk of the competition but he won it nice and he was like um but I was feeling a little bad because some things I could have like trained better if I would have just obeyed it and giving him a little time right right yeah and then I had like the next stock was in space so it's a little similar to to my story yeah but then the life really hit me hard back by giving me in space it's like he had like no other choice than just wait you know like no other choice I remember like Peter shark watching my training and saying like Mia what's this [ __ ] what are we doing when he was like four months old and he I went there to train like protection and he was the kind of low like like low energy dog a very dominant dog who only enjoyed like fighting with a Helper and controlling but like like average food drive and like the slow energy and it was like 30 37 degrees Celsius it was hot like I don't

know how much it is super super hot it's like extreme hot it's like in the upper 90s it's like the highest you can have in Europe and he was like and Peter is like I want to see your obedience and you know I like this 16 weeks old talk from the car and I'm like I'm gonna show you something and he's like I really want that piece of food and I definitely don't want to engage with you and then eventually I showed him again to him like when he was like uh well like a bit like maybe 15 months old summer time and I was already able to work with prey and Peter said like you know it looks like really nice the exercises you do but every time you give him the toy he looks like he wants to go to sleep with it I have to wake him up again like really reactive and it was like yeah you know we just I'm gonna fight with him you know and and but this talk was so good for me because first of all it showed me like more to be more humble because before that I was thinking that people were just so bad with their dogs you know and I was too like feeling too Superior there is this thing too yes yeah and I think it's important you have that one dog that shows you like that you are not that good and in every training I felt like I could feel you know that that I know like nothing about box training I have to like really work with my brain never stops thinking and yeah and and so and eventually I was able to make it like like really he building him to like that level in obedience that I've wanted to bring him and of course it looks different than like all my dogs look a little bit different but there are still some similarities yeah yeah yeah and he still was able to do it and I was like I think the biggest achievement in my career was like to make him doing excellent obedience in championships right than actually like winning with my previous I know I know because he was so difficult doc yeah sometimes these are the the things that watching competition or watching scores on working dog doesn't tell the real story yes yes and I I remember my helper I was saying like Mia you could have trained like three dogs in the same time and and so but it's it's important we we have and I think I'm so glad I caught him like in that point of my career and not like as my first talk for example right yeah yeah we have a lot of dogs now that like uh yeah I mean everybody's hell gets older and now Kimba has the same father as yours and Natalia has full so today still like we kind of like certain type of things you know that it's like a it's interesting yeah and you know like um with my current talk like with mahes I'm like I'm trading the same things but

I was trading with insist when he was five years old um just because I had to do that yeah in order to get its function and that was it by the way I I just thought of something with like the whole years and growing up like did you what was Finland was it too restricted we had like a lot of restrictions uh like for example I had a training haul I had to close it because they made it forbidden like and they actually like the thing was like this that they made like the southern Finland like um like that you are not allowed to go over the Border you know you couldn't like they isolated like the northern like the whole other Finland and my training Hall was like 10 kilometers on the other on the other side and most of my even customers everybody was coming from the south but I was just on the other side and yeah so so we had like we had this then we had this kind of big Scandal like like we had some abusive training like like yeah that was very unfortunate yeah these are the things that and so the so so so this was also like affecting so we had like two bad things like at the same time kind of so it affected our training possibilities like it was not easy to train and so I feel like that my young rock is like a little bit similar path than my previous stock was but for another reason right my previous talk was because of his character yeah and my young look is because we just didn't train because of many reasons and when it was over or not not over but when the borders open I had like so many postponed seminars that I had to do like a lot of seminars in the next year ketchup yes yeah and then it was like I'm just like have been traveling like a lot yeah there was a a lot of dogs imagine like I in my opinion that was the time when ice was at his best and yeah I know there was a lot of dogs that were who lost their people very ready yes yes and this is like you know like you and I know what that means it's not I know this one time but like because there was like a super talented brother of my previous talk I'm very very good trainer like of my friend Mia yeah yeah and and she kind of like and it was a very it's also like a complicated book like a like a a little bit look like in space but just like a little more Adaptive One but like really it could do like really well in the world Champs and they just couldn't make it because yeah for two years and then eventually The Rock was like that oh my God yes yeah yeah hopefully this doesn't happen again it's it's a nightmare when you have and and you put all the time and you're this is my time nope nope there's no just nope deal with it exactly and you know I was also like

qualified twice at the world Champs with my previous dog but eventually I was a bit like well he would be a bit like a gamble there you know we would never know like what yeah yeah what was gonna be the end to come outcome like yeah but what did we say 25 right 2025 that's our year good that's so our year yeah thank you for this beautiful conversation now thank you Ivan what we need to do we need to go to the fortune tellers that's what we need to do because that is the there is a truth there is a whole village I don't know where it is do you know it's like an hour away it's supposed to be like this big um Fortune like all the palm reading and all all the it's like a whole village because we are only going to hear the good news of our yeah we can be careful what we want to know all right thank you everybody hopefully you enjoyed this uh really thank you for this thank you so much it has been a pleasure let's go train and do some cool things [Music] thank you [Music]