E193: 로라 워드비(Laura Waudby) - "보상 줄이기 및 유창성 향상하기"

And then I have little Ren and Ren just turned 11 months old and I don't know if she's going to make it to see her birthday. I hope so. She is so sweet and very puppy or still, but she was just diagnosed with, um, advanced stage of cancer. So right now we're just, I'm loving her up as much as I possibly can right now and, um, playing with her as much as she's able to. And that's just kind of how it goes sometimes with life. So that's where my crew is at right now. Yeah. I'm really sorry, Laura, to hear about, you know, Ren and Vito. Um, that said, I'm going to try and get us both from crying and, uh, just kind of keep running with things. Thank you for doing the podcast today. Um, yeah, the questions should be much easier. Yeah. Um, so part of what made me want to chat today was, um, the, the topic of reducing reinforcement kind of came up in my recent tribal class. And we had a few students who were, they're getting that point where they were starting on that process. Um, which has kind of had it on my mind a lot lately. And since you have both a workshop and your six week class coming up, um, I thought perhaps you'd be up to chat about, uh, about the topic of it. Um, you know, before we go too deep into how to reinduce, reduce reinforcement, I wanted to kind of start with, you know, when, so at what point in training a behavior do you begin looking to reduce reinforcement? I tend to find trainers kind of fall into one of 2 PM. Um, they either absolutely rush to the step as fast as possible and they start putting, um, all of their behaviors into gigantic change well before their dog is ready. Or I see the opposite problem where people are absolutely terrified of doing this and they fall into a rut of constantly rewarding every single behavior. No matter how long has the dog has been doing that exact same version of it. Um, dogs train us very, very well. And we can find ourselves always rewarding the exact same step. Like, um, like in healing, I see trainers tend to reward every single Halston healing or every single finish, um, after the exercise is over and agility. I see trainers reward every single dog walk behavior or every single weave pull exit. And that, that becomes a really big problem because it's not only predictable to the dog of, regardless of how well the dog actually did on that behavior, they kind of expect that treat there. And that becomes a huge red flag in a trial when you can no longer do that. It's a, it tells the dog right away that something is different. Um, and so that's not only when the behavior that you're trying to train starts to actually

deteriorate, but you have a lot of stress with that as well. Um, and so on the flip side, reducing reinforcement is kind of one piece of that, of that trial puzzle. Um, generally when I'm training something, I kind of think of it as being in one of two different categories. I have my skill building sessions and I have my ring prep sessions. And so with a skill building session, I tend to look at really solidifying my dog's understanding of the behavior. I'm often rewarding every single successful repetition. Um, I try to challenge the dog's understanding of that. So doing a lot of proofing and weird things like that, but I tend to reward it a lot, but very early on in the process, I am also looking, um, to do the ring prep stuff. And that is where the focus of that session is preparing my dog actively for a trial setting. And so with this topic of starting to get to that, not rewarding every single behavior, um, there's a few different things I focused on from the food and toys off my body to the duration of work before the reward. And so let's talk about the duration of work right now, because I'm pretty sure you're going to ask about the rewards, not in our pocket later on. So with the, uh, the total duration of work, that's, that's one thing I actually do pretty late in the game. Um, I don't introduce that very early on, but what I do start adding early, early on is that not every single behavior is going to be rewarded. So I'm not necessarily going to have a really long chain, but I do want to introduce that very little baby concept early on. So some behaviors are pretty straightforward as you, as you might have a chain of behaviors you link together with your cues. So like an obedience that might be, you know, your basic recall is, you know, you have your state, you have your sit behavior at the start, a stay, the front behavior, the finish. And while I don't want to reward that finish every single time at the end of that chain, um, because again, that kind of goes back to the dog expecting it right there. But every single cue you have is giving the dog a green light that they are on the right path to the reward. Um, agility is kind of one big chain. You're constantly giving cues to the dog, whether verbally or physically that if your, if your timing is right, there shouldn't be any downtime where the dog doesn't know what that next path is to the reinforcement. So what I like to do, um, for obedience where the training has become more formal is to mix things up a lot. Um, my goal is slow and training.

And if I aim for that flow, I can get a whole lot of cues accomplished in a very short amount of time. So my, my first goal, I'm looking at kind of reducing that reinforcement is the number of cues I'm giving versus the actual length of work. Um, so for example, I can probably train for 30 seconds and probably give my dog at least 10 cues in that time if I'm doing a lot of flow. Um, so the dog might heal for like three steps, go around the cone, maybe come through my legs, um, do a broad jump, a hand touch, a go out, um, maybe heal some more and all that in a very, very short amount of time. So the total duration of the, of the work is not long, but the dog is used to immediately finishing one cue and doing another cue. And that tends to be a lot easier for dogs. I think when they're doing that in the motion, not doing a lot of those pauses, um, you start working without the reward. And then as a dog gets more advanced, I guess I'll purposely add a like more formality and pauses to it. But yeah, I guess honestly, the total duration of work is pretty low on my ring prep list. Um, even when we narrow it down to talk about kind of getting rid of the reward and stuff like that. You look at it as total duration of work and sometimes that's, so that starts out though, just to simply how many pieces kind of, you can fit into the same, I guess you call it unit of work. So like you said, 30 seconds or so, is that, is that a short summary? For a long, you did a good job explaining it. I'm just trying to kind of pull it all back together. Yeah, basically in the beginning stages, I don't focus a lot on total duration of work, um, early on as much as number of cues, um, given in a short time. Um, and those cues work best when it's very slow and out of motion versus, um, to their stationary position changes are a little bit harder, um, because you have pauses built in there. But anytime you need the dog moving, moving without stopping, I can find it a lot easier to get number of cues in that short amount of time. What immediately comes to mind is some of the videos Denise has been doing with Dice where, um, where, uh, she, she's just going, going right. She's got like four or five cues that she's stacking in a row. Almost. Is that kind of the picture you're looking for where it's just like straight from one behavior to the next behavior for a short chunk? Yeah, I haven't, um, I haven't been able to really be on Facebook that much recently to watch Denise's videos, but I know I'm trying to think of what, um, yeah, I think is what she called it.

Um, at least way back when I'm trying to train together multiple, the same approach that I take is just keeping the dog moving, really flowing from one behavior to another. So the dog doesn't have that they should have gotten a reward at that moment. I don't want the dog thinking, oh, this is where my mom usually gives me a treat. And now I didn't get one. I want my dog immediately onto that next task. Kind of before, before we started talking, you know, I was thinking about this and it seems like there is, you know, reducing reinforcement, removing reinforcement for our bodies or our person. And then, you know, kind of the proofing piece or the, I know, I know some people don't like that word, but kind of the building fluency piece. Um, is there a specific order you kind of work on those things? Yeah. Um, I think you kind of heard in my mind that those are kind of the, the ring-by behaviors, proofing the behavior called under what I, what I consider my skill building session. Um, um, I really love the term, uh, enhancement. And I absolutely love thinking about that, about it that way. It's not about tricking the dog. It's about building the dog's ability to do it under different conditions. Um, and so before you work on any type of reducing reinforcement, you do absolutely need some solid cues that the dog doesn't have to think about that much before you can do much else with it. You don't need a lot of solid cues, um, to start working on this idea, but you do, um, you need a few. And usually a hand touch is a really nice cue and then like position changes, um, kind of whatever your sport is. Um, at the same time that I'm working on really proofing the dog's behavior, really kind of increasing their understanding. I am also working on the removing rewards from my body as my next goal. So I do that very early on, um, even with a baby puppy before they really know a lot. Um, so even they have very few amount of cues. They might actually, might, might be the only thing they really know is kind of my marker cues of getting food from my hand versus getting food from, um, the ground. If I do like a get it cookie toss, I do a, a lot of what I call, um, the Zen tan exercises where I have food in my hand and the dog looks at me instead of staring at the food. And once that concept is in place, I can start the exact same thing with the reward off my body. Obviously you look at me, I'll cue the reward and then we can go get it. Um, so with a young dog, I don't add much more to that yet. Your reward marker cue. And in the case of having rewards off my body, that will eventually be, um, the Zen bowl game.

And as I get more advanced, then I'll start to add the skills the dog knows really well. Um, so basically the proofing the behavior and rewards off my body, I, I start very early on. Um, I think reducing reinforcement was your third one. And I kind of talked a little bit already that that's my last priority. Um, I need very solid cues. I said, I'll do the mini, the mini chains for a while, a lot of the flow, but many of the biggest things that I watch out for early on is that I'm not rewarding the same point single time. I don't want to reward every single finish or every single year possible. Um, other than that, that, that whole duration of work, I tend to save for a lot later on in the game. Are there, you know, foundation skills that you can teach to help make some of these concepts easier for the dog? You know, where do you start with the, with the baby puppy? You're talking a little bit about location specific markers before. Um, is it that, is there more to it? Um, yeah, I do the location specific marker cues, um, quite a bit as a puppy. It's kind of one of the first things I teach them is how to get that reward. Cause dogs don't know how to get that reward. It's going to be really hard to teach the actual skills. Um, so I do a lot of teaching them that get at me. They're going to toss a cookie that, um, the difference between waiting there for the reward to come to them versus coming to my hand to the reward. And that's kind of my first introduction to actual verbal cues with a puppy. And then past that, um, especially the dog starts to get older. I'm going to look a lot of what are my actual cues for the behavior and not what I think the cue is, but what does the dog think it is? Um, especially with my students, um, I really want them to be videotaping their sessions a lot because I find that we tend to have a lot of extra body language that we aren't able to love. Um, but that reward comes part of the picture, um, meaning that the dog won't do the behavior once he first got a cookie for doing maybe the behavior, uh, a certain behavior right before it. Um, so for example, maybe the handler has their hand in their pocket and the dog only does something when they have that, um, when they see that the handler's hand is in their pocket or the dog is actually lured into position. And so I want to get rid of that stuff, um, as soon as possible. Um, I guess as people, we tend to think of the dog as being stubborn and they finally won't do the behavior we thought that was really well taught. But from the dog's perspective, the entire picture has changed.

She's just no longer sure that of what you want is the cue doesn't look the same, um, or that contact of the reward isn't understood. So step one is getting that really clean behavior with your hands nowhere near the reward. And again, this is a lot easier when you have it on the verbal only cues, which is also why I kind of like to start with that marker cue training is that I find that it teaches the dogs to pay more attention to what I'm saying versus actually looking at my hands. Um, the hand signals can certainly work for the behaviors here. Um, but you have to be very careful that you're not teaching your dog to always be staring at your hands. Um, especially cause we have food in our hands so much in training. Um, I personally, I do train a lot with food in my hands in my training sessions. I just find it a lot easier. Um, I'm not very good about reaching into my pocket to get the rewards. I just tend to have a lot of treats in my hand all the time. Um, but that does mean that I have to work extra hard on teaching my dogs that they do not stare at the food. Um, staring at the cookie will not make it magically fall into their mouth. And so I teach the dog that, um, not waiting for the, again, that verbal marker cue tells them that the food is coming. Um, so I, you really want that clean loop for the dog. The dog knows. I guess, I guess the dog hears that marker cue is listening to you before you move your hands to get the reward. So that's kind of the biggest first thing that I'm going to work on with any dog is just do not stare at the reward in my hand. And ideally I want to get a step further and I'm going to work on those then hand games where I can even move my cookie hand and the dog knows to still keep looking at me and ignoring my hand motions. Once you have that, I find it's pretty easy to get that to the actual Zen Bowl itself. The goal is the exact same. The dog ignores where the reward is located and basically looking at me for the next cue. Um, so I want the dog to know that they will get the cookie, uh, once I give that marker cue. And even if they have to move away from the reward, whether that reward is in my hand or the reward is in the dish, that they will get that reward marker cue to, to, to go collect that, that juice from my hand or the dish. And I want them really eagerly engaging in the office without having to wait a long time for them to start staring up at me, um, or staring away from the dish. So tell me a little bit more about, uh, Zen Bowl, you know, for those not familiar with the concept, what is it?

And then how can the, how can the concept of Zen Bowl kind of help with the eventual transition to getting behaviors ring ready? Zen Bowl is just a name for having reward off our body. I think that most of us like to take it to mean that the reward is in an open container, meaning a small dog dish or putting the food on something like a Tupperware lid. And then that reward is set on the ground for the dog. It doesn't necessarily have to be, um, an open container on the ground, but that's the definition that I work off of. Um, the dog can run over and grab the reward at any time. Um, but hopefully it's willing to wait for that very specific cue. Um, the reason I like to have the reward uncovered with a dog can grab it is I think it really encourages my students and myself to break things down a little bit more and make sure that we're doing steps as a dog is truly opting into start and the dog is able to be successful without needing to guard it. I know I used to do a lot more guarding of Zen Bowl, kind of either putting my foot on it or doing a little mini body blocks in the past. And honestly, I, I've gotten away from that. I rarely do that partly because I've had a lot of sensitive dogs. Whereas if you guard the dish one time, they no longer want to go to it, even when you give them that marker cue. Um, but even with kind of the, the pushier Labradors that I worked with, um, or the little Spaniel puppy that I had at one point, I, I, I want to get the dog as much control of the process as possible. And so if the dog is making repeated mistakes and rushing to the dish before you gave that cue, then we need to look at that as feedback that we need to change our actual training plan itself. Um, because then I really want the dog opting into that. And so what the Zen Bowl idea does is it goes with a very strong history of watching the reward be set down and voluntarily coming with you away from the dish in order to start their work. Um, they are, they're literally opting in when they know that you have absolutely no rewards in your pocket whatsoever. And that field becomes absolutely huge for trial prep when it's very obvious that there are never any cookies in the ring and bite. And the other thing I love about the Zen Bowl that I find that it tends to really empower the dog. The dishes they get to run to on cue becomes way more valuable. But even if I give them that exact, exact same reward from my hand itself, um, from, for whatever reason, that magical dish becomes super, super powerful to the dog. And I think part of it is that they're able to self-serve with and run up to themselves on

my cue without needing my human thumbs to open that container. Um, a lot of really sensitive dogs I find they speed up and I can become a lot more excited about work when they get to go run to that reward themselves and kind of dive in there. Um, and then because that reward becomes just so powerful, I think that it's a lot easier to start, you know, slightly longer change for your ring prep versus those same little chains for just that reward in your pocket. So I think it's a really nice way to get the dog excited about working out for a little bit longer later on as well. I know you, you kind of have a workshop coming up, um, right around the corner actually, uh, to kind of walk people through the process step by step. But, um, can you just share a little bit of an overview on how you kind of teach the dog the concept of a Zimble? Yeah. Um, I alluded to it earlier when I started talking about the foundation of my Zen hand games, that basically my step one is that I really want the dog knowing that in order to get the reward in my hands, they have to look away from it. Um, just a really quick one actually about Zen hand while I'm thinking of it is that I do want it to mean more stillness and focus and not frantically offering behaviors. Sometimes I see dogs who were taught the Zen hand game backing away from my hand, um, and kind of throwing every behavior in the book. And that is not what I want. I do want really nice stillness and focus. And so if I need to, I can even grab a platform to help the dog wait on while they're learning these new rules, but basically my goal is going to kind of proactively helping the dog, um, to stay away from my hand and be still before they even make a mistake. So I might have my hands higher up when first starting it, uh, might do some rapid fire feeding, um, or I might even do some cookie tosses to, with my get it cue to get the dog away from my Zen hand before they're really mobbing it. I no longer do the, let the dog slobber over my hand for two minutes, um, before I finally reward them. But once the dog gets the idea, I do the exact same stuff with the Zen bowl. So I'm going to hold it in my hand and I'm going to quickly reinforce as fast as possible for four feet on the ground and being calm with it in my hand. Once the dog is actually getting calm and kind of still, I use a special marker cue that really took the dog to the dish and that cue is only used for the dish. So my cue is cookies, which means the dog has permission to shelter little snout in that food dish.

Um, so I use a special marker cue that tells the dog they can release directly to the food dish. And again, it's only for that food dish. I use the cue cookies that tells the dog they can get the reward there. Um, a lot of people will use the cue dish. Um, it doesn't really matter what you use. I just want a statistic for it. So the dog eventually knows if they're going to be released to food in your hand, um, or going to the dish. With this as well, if I do not want the dog staring at that Zen bowl, I want the dog learning to look at me. And this, this process again is also with the dish in my hand. And as the dog is getting that focus piece, I'll gradually put the dish on the floor and get that eyeball to me, waiting calmly for the cue, making them to it. And then one of the steps that I put a lot of emphasis on is, um, kind of testing the marker cue a little bit as well, because I don't want the dog to anticipate that the next thing I say is always going to mean go to the dish. Um, because if the dog starts to anticipate that, it can be really hard to get into work before the Zen bowl release cue. So a lot of times in the beginning, I'll start with testing the dog. If I have a dish on the floor, can I give the dog their get it cue and have the dog expect to chase the cookie, um, away from the dish and not just dive into the dish. And again, I'll do this very, very fast. So the dog's success rate is high. So I'll get it and you immediately toss the cookie. I might even toss another one right away. Just do several get it cookies in a row. So the dog can't even have time to make a mistake and approach that just before I told them to, um, basically I'm building up that idea that I'm going to give a cue to the dog and it may not mean diving instantly into that food bowl that they're so excited about. And that, what that also does is it, I worked on the dog's ability to not only keep focused on me, but to choose to leave the reward even while moving, which I think is another big piece that students tend to overlook that their dog can do really, really well leaving on the floor, leaving their toy until you ask them to move. And then it kind of all just falls apart. I'm certainly familiar with how that, the falling apart piece works. Um, so what are some ways that, you know, having that Zen Bowl behavior can, can be useful either in terms of, you know, your sport or, you know, reducing reinforcement? Like how do you use it when you get, you know, you're past the training, the actual Zen Bowl phase, but you're into actually using it in your other training?

It sends a lot of distance so that transfers quickly into getting that trial prep information. Again, it really empowers the dog to choose to leave the reward in order to, in order to start and run for it. And that leaving the reward is, again, a huge piece when you start to get to a trial and have to enter the ring with it far away. Um, but another piece that I use it for besides all the ring prep stuff is distance behaviors. So one problem we tend to have in training behaviors is that when the reward is in our pockets or in our hands, the dog naturally wants to creep towards us. And agility, that basically means that it's going to be filling into us and not wanting to stay on their line. Um, and obedience to a dog moving forward too much is a big issue on things like position changes or the drop on recall, or even the go out again when they're thinking about coming back to us. And even, so I guess one common advice we have is, you know, walking in to see the dog in position, right? So you, you go all the way out there at a distance for the cookie and the mouse. But even if you're doing that, the dog still knows that you have the reward in your pocket and they're still thinking about coming closer to you where that reward is. And so what I love about the Zen Bowl or even just again, a toy on the ground behind the dog is that then you can place that reward anywhere as long as the dog sees you put it on and knows where it is. And so with the example of say position changes or maybe the drop on recall, I place the reward behind the dog a lot. And that way I can then cue the dog to do a behavior, whether it's in doing a down or doing a recall. And then I can give that marker to go back to their dish at any point in the process. So the dog is still focusing on me, waiting for the cue, but they're expecting to send to the reward behind him. And it tends to end up with a lot less creeping. So that's mainly the way I use the Zen Bowl in my training sessions. Is I'll have the ring prep sessions with the reward at a distance. And then in my skill-based sessions, I tend to have the Zen Bowl behind the dog when I'm working because I'm primarily using it for the distance-based behaviors. So we talked about this a little bit already, but let's say we've kind of got that as a foundation concept. And some of the stuff you mentioned earlier around location-specific markers and things like that. And we've got a few behaviors kind of reliably on cue when we're using a one-to-one reinforcement schedule. So, you know, one behavior, one cookie.

Can you just kind of talk about what's next if our goal is to reduce that reinforcement? You're talking about, I mean, we talked a bit about already kind of the 30 seconds piece. So do you want to just kind of walk us through that just a little bit more? Yeah. I think the example of these will primarily be about obedience because that's where I'm the most familiar with. And that's where I think healers tend to get stuck the most with building up the routine. So some people will view it as doing one long behavior chain, but that's not really how I personally tend to train it. It can certainly work very well. In that case, it would just be adding slightly longer cues after another. But I tend to do it a little bit differently. So basically, you have your individual behaviors. And I will spend time blending these behaviors with, you know, mixing things up again, focusing on the flow, a number of behaviors before the cookie. Again, keeping the dog moving a lot because it's less likely to trigger that moment where the dog expects that cookie. But then you do also have your formal behavior chains and obedience to you. And for the most part, I think this is where students do really well with. They can put together the full, like the full recall exercises for the stay, the come, the front, the finish. And the dog can usually do that full exercise without a reward, no problem. What I tend to see fall apart more is the chaining of multiple, multiple exercises together. And actually, I don't really think it's that as much as it's the piece where the dog expects the reward, doesn't get it. And then doesn't really know what you're doing as you go to set up for the next exercise. That piece of moving from one place to another when the exercise ends and you're setting up for the next one is kind of the big piece. So the place that I think that is the hardest for a lot of the dogs is that they expect the reward, they don't get it, and then they don't really know what you're doing as you go to set up for the next exercise. I focus a lot on training what we call transitions of moving from one spot to another when it's kind of a gray area for the dog's perspective, I suppose, on whether they are fully in work mode or not. You can have a lot of different ways you move through that transition, whether it's more formally where the dog is, maybe they're healing a little bit with you and maybe you have them jump up and do a high hand touch or a spin, but they're very, very clearly doing a trained behavior such as then healing with you or following you as you move backwards.

I do a lot of backwards walking with my dogs between exercises. And of course, you can also have it more playfully too where, you know, you're giving the dog scratches on the side of their muzzle while they're walking with you or you're doing a butt rub as you're walking or playfully taking them and running away. But whatever it is that you want to do between exercises or maybe it's moving to the start line, you have to actively train those pieces and then actively train that, the movement to then your new setup piece. And in the beginning, every ward, they'll set up a lot. But again, I don't want to be predictable there either. And it's kind of going more into my ring conference class now that I think about it. But I do talk a little bit about this in my Bi-Bi-Cookie class as well. I do some talking about what picture do you want to move with your dog, you know, in between pieces. How will you break the dog out of position on your side, keep them engaged with you, and again, possibly add a little bit of play as you go to set up. Because I want the dog to know that even if I'm breaking them out of position right there, we're still actively working. They're still on that green path towards that reinforcement picture. And so when I work on reducing reinforcement and obedience, I focus a lot of my effort on this piece right here. So I will do some training of the formality pieces, like how I'll enter the ring, remove the leash and set up, etc. But then I will do a lot more of pausing, releasing the dog and moving to my next setup spot, exactly like how I will in a trial, pause again, again, move to another setup spot, pause again, and then I might reward. Or maybe I'll do a very small part of an exercise, but I really want to focus on that transition piece, setting up and pausing. Because I find that, again, that setup, again, is kind of where the dog tends to lose it. And if I work on the dog doing multiple of those different setups and different locations throughout the ring, those are all the places where the dog traditionally is going to expect the reward. And so if I really work through that piece, I find that that expectation goes away. The dog is happily engaged with me. And the actual exercises are hopefully the easy parts. Hopefully you've taught, you know, your healing well, your drop on recall well, whatever it is, pretty solidly. And so you just need to have those links that kind of combine them together. And so that's what I focus on the most when I'm talking about reducing reinforcement and obedience as a little bit less on the actual duration of work itself again,

and more on the, these are the links that are going to be between the chains. Okay. So we were talking earlier about kind of the various pieces. And I know you said you incorporate proofing into your skill building sessions. So we're switching a little bit here from ring prep sessions to skill building, but I wanted to kind of ask how you start that process when you're first starting to, you know, proof of behavior. What does that look like at those early stages? Yeah. So you're exactly right. My proofing sessions are part of my, they're basically exactly with my skill building sessions. And again, with proofing, I like the term fluency enhancement, but it's the exact same thing. Um, I, I start with those distractions that I can control pretty well. And honestly, my very first distractions I like to use are my rewards. So I use my Zen hand a lot and my Zen bowl, um, with pretty much every single behavior out there that I work on, because I find that if the dog can, can do it without staring at the reward, no matter where that reward is, even if that reward is actually moving even a little bit, or in a spot where it's a little bit more tempting, then that behavior is usually pretty solid. Um, I like to take it to the step where I can purposely hold the reward in a location that doesn't support the behavior that I'm training. Um, so for example, I will practice if I'm setting to an adult, to an agility jump, but I want my dog to wrap back to me. I might put my Zen bowl or my toy, maybe 15 feet past the jump. So that way the dog has to take the jump, wrap back to me tightly, ignore the reward out there until I cue it. And I'm looking at not only does the dog confidently take the jump and kind of turn back to me, but is that done the exact same way that they would if I had rewarded in my, on my body? Um, so do they actually jump nice and tight, um, versus jumping long, kind of looking longly at the reward out there and then coming back to me? Um, or kind of the same thing, like for an obedience, like with my friends, can I hold the, can I hold my Zen hand with their food out to my side? And does the dog actually front straight and keep focused on me? Or are they trying to get closer to that hand that has the cookie? Um, I do, so I do a lot of this stuff with every single behavior that I train is, can I put the reward in weird locations? And does the dog still do the behavior to, to the criteria that I train them to do? Um, so that's kind of my first proofing that I do a behavior and what I spend the most time on. Um, past that, it tends to vary a lot more on what I guess I do next.

Um, it's probably more typical of what people tend to think of with, um, I guess I probably start with weird handler stuff first. Um, so then can I, you know, have my back turned, my eyes closed? Can I stand here or there, et cetera? Um, using other distractions. So probably more typical stuff. Um, because I can, I do a lot of obedience work. I will add, um, people pressure in there. My dogs tend to be very sensitive, um, especially when working with people closely staring at them. So whenever possible, I try to have, uh, recruit a judge to stand near my dog. And often I'll have the judge have food in their hand too. Um, typically I do that more as a distraction versus their actual reward that the judge is holding, but I might do that too. But basically I like having my helpers have food and toys in their hand because I, I think from my dog's perspective, it turns it more into that general distraction and less about is this person going to approach and talk to me and pet me and things like that, that might kind of worry my dog. Um, I rather the dog be thinking about, oh, that is just a food distraction. I just need to ignore that the exact same as I would as if there was food on the ground. So that's kind of how I tackle the, the proofing stuff with my dogs. So we've talked a bit about reducing reinforcement. We've talked a little bit about removing cookies from our bodies. Uh, we talked a little bit about fluency enhancement. Um, are there other things we need to kind of be thinking about, um, about training in order to have a dog that's ready for the ring? Oh, lots. Um, that's kind of, uh, my ring cup and classed over a lot of the other pieces. Um, but one thing I've mentioned, I think a few times maybe now is formality. Um, this again, primarily applies to obedience, but ideally even, even in the other sports that you're training for, you need to pay attention to not only what is your body doing, but what is your, your mouth doing? Um, and so again, particularly for obedience, I want my dog to know that silence is a good thing that when I'm silent or giving the next cue, it means that they're on the track to reinforcement. I know that's one of the biggest mistakes I made with my first dog. And I had to read that concept from kind of step one, because he got very stressful, um, more and more each trial as he wasn't sure if he was doing the right thing when I was suddenly very quiet and formal in training. And so now what I tend to focus on with my young dogs right from the start is that I will have shaping sessions where I might be silent and have the dog offer a behavior.

Um, but then I will also have what I call my cued sessions is basically once I give a cue, I want the dog to know that my silence means keep doing that. You're on the right track because I don't want my dog to be frantic in the ring. If I'm quietly waiting for the judge to give me the next command in the sequence, um, I had so many pauses and obedience that focusing on silence is a good thing. It's a huge part of my training early on. And so that kind of comes into my reducing reinforcement work as well is that when the dog does make an error, I tend to step in, um, basically right away with a kind of a happy, cheerful encouragement, you know, Hey, doggy, come back here, you know, um, or if I tell them so close, I may see whatever comes out of my mouth in that moment, but I like to verbally encourage them and, and that way they, they know that, uh, they need to fix something. But again, I'm there encouraging them to, to make it right. And they're not left with me just staring and quietly waiting for them to fix something. Um, and then of course, there's a whole bunch of other like ring prep stuff you need to do, um, such as, you know, how, how you will walk in the ring, you know, you will remove the leash. How, how will you handle delay in the ring and stuff like that? Um, and that is primarily in my ring conference class, but it's a little bit in my buy by cookie class as well. So I mentioned earlier, um, you have the workshop coming up and then we'll talk about the class a little more, but, um, can you just share a little more about kind of what you'll cover in the workshop, what folks can expect? So the workshop covers basically step one of, um, starting with your Zen hand games and all take you through teaching the actual Zen bowl itself. Um, so it is those beginning steps. It does go a little bit further as well for dogs who already have that concept down. So if you already have a Zen bowl cue, um, then you'll be ready for kind of the next section of that workshop, which is making sure the dogs are willingly leaving reward to move with the cue without you having to have them on leash or without you having to use a lot of cues because the dog should offer leaving that reward to move with you. Um, also working on more movements around the reward, more work without, without going to it. So that kind of that concept of not having a dog just be in one place and listening to your cues, but can they actually move? So can you actually do eventually real agility, um, or healing or whatever it is with the dog,

without the dog rushing the reward as soon as they are released and then, um, doing send towards that reward location. So can I send again, send the dog to a jump, even if I have the reward slightly past it? Um, or can, you know, basic example, we can now go to a crate and still have their Zen bowl kind of in that area. So are they really focusing on what you're telling them to do versus just assuming that you're releasing them to that dish? Are there any prerequisite skills that students need before they join the workshop? Do they, anything else that they really, you know, kind of need to know before they can go sign up? Nope. There's no prerequisites needed. Um, it will help if your dog does have some understanding already of the doggy Zen games and focus. So that way you can actually advance to some of the more of the Zen bowl stuff. Um, but if you don't have it, that's fine. We're going to start with where you're at. I wouldn't want anyone to expect though, that they can get through all of the steps in a week because I do go into a little bit into some of those advanced concepts. Um, so just be prepared that it's a little bit longer workshop that I originally intended it to be. Um, so that could be good or bad, I guess. Fair enough. Uh, so the workshop is November 22nd and then December you're running your six week class Bye Bye Cookie. Hello Julie, reinforcement. Um, so how do the concepts in the class and the workshops differ? Does the class build on the workshop? Yeah, they're the same concepts. Um, basically it's the one hour lecture versus six weeks of the material. Um, so for the class, the students new to it will actually primarily be working off the material in the workshop itself. Um, of course there'll be more in-depth lectures and more video examples of stuff like that to help them. Um, but basically the, the goals of the workshop will be what we're spending a lot of time on in the six week class for the students who are new to it. For students who have already kind of started the Zen Bowl ideas, um, the, the actual six week class does go more in depth into more ring prep behaviors. Um, such as, you know, doing some work on entering the ring and setting up with the rewards outside the ring. Um, we'll talk a little bit about that transition piece between exercises, um, about an exit the ring routine. So how to get your rewards out the dog pulling you and making your arm out as you're going to go get it. Um, and it's just some more general proofing of cues. So your dog is really, truly working no matter where that reward is located.

Um, because the average student will get nowhere near the full course material in six weeks. I would say most of my students are working on the first three weeks throughout the entire six weeks of class. Um, it is a pretty in-depth class, um, designed to handle multiple levels of students. Is there anything that students need to know before signing up for the class? Um, you know, kind of anything either in terms of prereqs or just in terms of like information about the class itself? So again, there's no prerequisites for the class. Um, but again, the big thing to keep in mind is that you want to go at your own pace. So again, as I mentioned, there are quite a lot of lectures. Um, they are released weekly with summaries at the end of each lecture telling about the, sorry, the, the summary points from the lecture. Um, but it's not specific homework that you have to do, um, because it's definitely not a class designed where you are supposed to keep up with the lectures each week. That will be pretty much impossible for most students. Um, because again, most of the students don't actually get through the entire six weeks of class. And so the biggest thing to sign up for class is to be aware of that and take a deep breath and, um, let your dog tell you what pace you need to be going at. Awesome. Last question. So this is the one I've been asking everyone who comes on lately. Um, what is something that you've learned recently or been reminded of when it comes to dog training? Um, so this is, um, your second hardest question for me. Um, when we initially set up this interview, I knew this was coming and I was going to talk about something with friends training. And now I don't remember at all what that was, um, and don't really care about what it was. So I might add a little bit of a sad note because I think I want to talk a little bit about Vito with you and likely, uh, another rambly note because I'm not quite sure where I'm going with this. Um, basically we don't have our dogs, so they can teach us a lesson and make us better trainers. Um, we get them, you know, to go hiking with us, to snuggle on the couch. And I just love how joyful dogs are and kind of everything that we do with them. And for me, that one of the best parts of owning a dog is I do love those training sessions with them. Um, so training is such a big part of my relationship with my dogs that when I look back over their life, no matter, no matter how short it is, I do remember this one. And we had training just as much as those bedtime struggles and all those hikes. And with Vito, training was often really hard.

Um, especially in his first several years, I, I worked very hard, um, to try and make training fun for him and training and in trials. And we kind of struggled and I almost gave up a lot and honestly giving up would have been fine. Um, nothing wrong if you choose to do that. And if you choose to train for a different sport. Um, but I didn't, um, I guess I initially was kind of looking at it from a goals perspective and it was really hard for me because I couldn't help but feel disappointment when we were really struggling to meet those goals. But I then started to kind of look at it more as a, it's a puzzle perspective. Uh, I really, training and training is so important for my relationship with my dogs to keep doing something with them. And so I looked at it from how can I continue to kind of help him see that obedience really is fun. It was my job to make obedience fun for him. Um, and if we weren't having that fun, then I needed to kind of change something up. And so I experimented a lot. Um, and what kind of helped him most was disrespecting the hundreds of times he told me that he didn't want to train that day, really respecting it and embracing that my job was to make training fun for him, uh, when he did finally opt in. Um, and I guess that kind of, maybe that goes to the actual lesson, um, is that what helped things turn around for us when it was when I really realized that it was not my job to convince him to start training. Um, that was kind of turning into a lot of pressure for him, maybe with some nagging, unfortunately, but it was my job to make the session fun once he truly opted into work. And that once I finally got to that point in training him, um, all those years ago was when we really started to make a lot of progress and we still struggled and he opted in, um, probably less than he opted out or he opted out a lot basically. Um, but we continued to improve and he did eventually teach me a lot, even if that's not why he came here with me. Um, and right now I think he's just really happy that I give him butt scratches and I know that he loves balls and he can, um, squish and squish and squish all those balls. Um, basically him knowing that I got his back and I know that he, what he really likes is probably the most important thing. Um, yeah, I guess I'll just stop there. Yeah. I mean, I think there was some really valuable little nuggets in there just about, um, you know, kind of learning the dog that you have and not the dog that you expected to have. Um, that was definitely, um, pretty different.

I, I, I had those expectations and things don't always work out like that, but. Yeah. Yeah. Um, I mean, I could pull a couple more nuggets out there too, but I think I think it's just a valuable note to end on. So I won't, I won't muddy the waters. Thank you so much for coming on, Laura. I really appreciate it. You're welcome. And thank you to our listeners for tuning in. We will be back next week. We're talking to Sharon Carroll on fear and anxiety and dogs. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Line. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Today's show is brought to you by the Fen pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense pense