고드라이브 워킹 독 교정 | 조작적 조건화 | 캐나인 패러다임 호스트 팻 스튜어트(Pat Stuart)

you know for sure that they want to do and the traditional method then is okay we say all right now we apply to correction now we're going to you know compel the dog in one way or another and the problem is that a lot of you know balance training prior to that doesn't prepare the dog for that correction so the dog doesn't actually know what to do with the pressure that we apply in that moment because usually people are using pressure in any form as a stopping signal along the way in their training and so when the dog you ask the dog to do something and it doesn't do it applying another stopping signal is not likely to make the dog do what you wanted it to do it's going to you know further stop the dog from doing anything so nupapo is just remembering that and remembering to include some form of negative reinforcement in the learning phase there's loads of way people do that you know there's you know some people get right into it using negative reinforcement to teach some people it's a balance depending on the dog and what you do for me you know i like to start with puppies so it's a lot of positive reinforcement and then i have to somehow find a way to layer pressure over behaviors they already know but the the punchline is that if you want to be able to compel your dog using pressure when the dog one day doesn't perform the behaviors then you need to have included pressure in some form of learning phase along the way so the dog understands okay i know that that's a compelling action to complete the task that i've been asked to complete so that's that's sneak pop in a nutshell okay so to kind of to break it all down i want to talk to you about an issue that i'm currently going through with reika okay so rika is very smart uh and we're training i love to train she loves to learn but our a big problem that we're running into is when we're in the living space and i'm going to put on her collar and her leash to go outside and she's kind of and we always train train this with positive reinforcement treat click tree click click but like it's because we we're always going outside but now she's being super stubborn and she'll run away and like you know really make me work to put the collar on her to go outside and she knows that you know the last resort will be me going to get a treat and having to give her the treat in order to get her to put the collar on yeah help me i think you know there's probably some layers to that um so yeah there's probably some layers to that i think that uh normally we would say that if the

the collar for me you got to have some sort of window open window closed kind of indicator that training is available right and so it would be if you're going outside and that collar represents to the dog this is your opportunity to go outside and we're going to do training or whatever it is that's going on out there if the dog's avoiding the collar then you know there could be multiple reasons why that would happen but the first i would want to ensure is that the training is happening in a way where the dog wants to be a participant of that right because if she's avoiding the collar it's possible that she's like hey i don't want to be involved in that training which seems unlikely um the other thing that is you might have been quite well trained by her that she can manipulate you into the chasing game right um and then the ultimate like uh reinforcement for coming in and that's what she's coming in to get right so like i it's probably i mean it fits totally it's very rare to find anything in dog training that doesn't fit within anything that's doing being done well it doesn't fit within the nippopo template but a pressure at that time is probably not the right way to go i would start you know showing that as more of a like that the collar is a gateway to things that you want to do and i'm not going to pursue you like if you don't want to go train and provided our training is being done correctly and done in a way with a dog you know wants is a willing participant or is even more of a one thing that we kind of feel really strongly about is the active dog and the reactive handler so we kind of we almost want the dog to be pushing us to say like hey i want to go train rather than me saying come on let's go train and it sounds like that's the sort of situation that you're in so what i would certainly be doing is outweighing that dog right so i'll be like hey you can chill out in this house um and do nothing by yourself being a melanoma that's that's not going to fly she's going to need to do these things so you go i'm going to wait i'm going to outweigh you and i'm going to i'm going to wait here with the collar on and you're going to come to me and you're going to show me you're active and then that is the gateway that will go to training and like i say that you know the key to that is that the training is motivational and the training is in the interest of the dog um because so long as the dog wants to get to that training you just make putting this gear on is the gateway to do that in fact i like i personally do the

opposite um with young dogs with young dogs i have a collar that's on them in the house like a little snap buckle collar and then i take that off and that to them says like hey the restaurant is open this is your opportunity to begin training um because ultimately for the dogs that i you know want to train i want them to eventually work with no gear on so you know i like to compete i i play in psa and once you're out of the level one you're in the level two the dog's actually naked on the field so i want the indicator to my dog to be when i've taken your callers off that means that it's time to work like this is a huge time of expression they get an opportunity with puppies to imprint that right so they wear a little snap buckle closure and it's almost like their first marker of the session is they come to me i call them over whatever i go to them it doesn't matter i click that and i hear the snap buckle open and i click immediately and i present the first reinforcer so they're like whoa taking that off opened the restaurant and now we're into action and now we can play so that's you know that's kind of my long version of saying i would not be pursuing your dog and saying like hey come over here and get there i'll be sitting down and presenting it and being like hey the opportunity to work is here and like i say so long as your work is you know i watch your videos the dog's having a great time in the work so the dog wants to work right so really it's i i just want to um interrupt you here it's too it's not even um to go and train it's also to go potty yeah right okay yeah and i and also i know when she does have to go to the bathroom because she'll go over right by where the gate is and just i know she has to go and uh the pa i think like two days ago she was giving me a hard time and then i just was like all right you're not going outside yeah but like yeah i mean i want to take her out to go to the bathroom so i don't have to like get cleaned up inside now like you're gonna go yeah yeah for sure so then you know i would front load that and make it a recall within the house so that you under any circumstances can call her over and it it you know all these things look we don't want to be it sounds like you're kind of worried about that being in the position of she won't come unless i have the treat right um and so i would never put it like in this learning phase how old is she she is nine months yeah cool so like well you still have the opportunity already in this learning phase of never asking her to do anything unless you ha have already prepared the opportunity

for that reinforcement so when you decide that it's time to go outside i would at that moment have some form of reinforcer on me and call her over and be like i have it it's available like you didn't see me get it you don't have we don't have to go through the ritual of the old pet dog wave the baggy around like i have it i'm going to call you over and then i'm going to produce it and you want it to be a conditioned response where she's like yeah i hear that it's a guarantee of reinforcement and then when she's really got that ingrained you go to a variable schedule on that yeah okay that's really interesting that you say that and it just clicked for me because her recall is really good again we i mean we work on it all the time it's when i'm holding the it's like she's seeing that sh like this is an opportunity to to get more treats like you know i have the i'm holding the caller and when i just call her to like switch rooms or i mean she does follow me a lot um she comes over no problem i think starts seeing the equipment yeah all right let's let's start the game yeah and so you know one of the things you would say you'd say then that your dog understands that that that collar means that i'm just going to go out on a boring go outside the potty and i don't want to do that or i think more than likely if i had to guess without having seen any of it i would guess that she enjoys the chase me around try and put that collar on sort of game right without having seen it i'd be comfortable to make that guess so i think um yeah the way to be would be lots of dry reps like i think one of the issues that we have with dogs is we we often really quickly teach something and then only use it when we actually need to use it and so then the dog goes like okay this is the real situation i read the play prior and now i know what's coming so using it sort of in changing the context so that she can't find the pattern so you could carry that color pick it up from time to time and just pick up the caller click and then she'll come running over and takes the food right and then she's not going out she's just continues to be free in the house and you pick up the collar and you show it to her and you click and she comes over and then eventually the idea is you know classical conditioning new signal takes the power of the old signal when you pick up the caller she goes you're about to click and she comes running over and when that's ingrained and that's when you can go to a variable schedule of that and like sometimes you click and sometimes you don't and what you want is to do that like

if you're going to take her out three times a day you want to do that 10 to 15 times a day and only three times does it actually result in the caller being put on and the dog being taken out so outside and that way she never specifically goes like that is she can't be sure of the outcome the only outcome that she's sure of is a learning phase where you holding the caller she sees that you click she comes over gets reinforcement and then the first few times you do that they'll be this awkward like are you gonna put the collar on me now and you go nah like i just was doing that and then when you ingrain that then you can go here's a collar on and now the food comes right so then it becomes a new sequence of like i hold the collar i show it to you i click you come to me i put the collar on and then you get the payment right and so that's kind of a little bit outside the normal chain like normally we would say we call the dog over the dog gets the collar put on you click and then you pay for that but the click was bringing the dog to you right and now then the idea then is the dogs in this mindset of what pres what follows the click is my reinforcer my reinforcer is getting the collar put on and then the food gets in so that having the collar put on is part of the picture of reinforcement to the dog so she's now doubly motivated right so when she puts a collar on she'll genuinely have the feeling of like i was just reinforced like putting that collar on actually made me feel as though i got my reinforcer right because i came after the click and became after the click but before the food was delivered so that becomes a necessary step in there and then like i said you go to a variable schedule of that and it actually will get strengthened a lot of people get kind of worried when they say like i don't want to be doing that forever right like you don't want to be going through that process over and over and you don't have to what happens is the dog then like that becomes a you know a conditioned response the dog goes right this is what leads to that and then when you break that chain one day the dog's like whoa like that's not that's not what i was expecting to happen and that causes a dopamine spike variability in reinforcement is what causes like big goat meat spikes and then the dog will be like whoa every time you hold that collar i should come flying over to you to find out whether i'm going to get reinforcement and that will make it more exciting for her because it's not a guarantee of reinforcement sometimes we can kind of bore those a little bit by over

reinforcing them it's like yeah you definitely get it here you definitely get a dog goes yeah i know what it's going to be but when they're not always sure that's when they come flying and that's like am i going to get it or not okay so that should work yeah yeah um so just to recap um i'm going to go get the caller call her over click reward not put it on her 10 15 times a day to only go out three times yeah yeah rough yeah that should work right and then you build that pattern you're just coming over to get your reinforcement you'll come flying okay awesome so um next thing i want to touch on is um just why corrections are so important when we're working with our dogs and um motivating our dogs and correcting and yeah how does it all work i think yeah so i think you know you kind of answer the question in the word why is a correction so important is that we're making the dog correct right and so a lot of the times the things that we're teaching the dogs it depends on you know the purpose of the dog right so even a pet dog a lot of the little tricks and cool behaviors a dog might have we would say there's no reason i would ever want to compel those behaviors because they're just little fun things right fair enough no worries but at some point there's a behavior that every dog needs that is like needs to happen when it's can when you need it to happen and let's say in pet dogs that's a recall right for example the dog must come back when you call not negotiable if you want to be able to take your dog off leash it must be able to come back so the idea of the correction then is that i will this is a behavior that i absolutely must have happen and i must layer in the ability to make you correct because if you are wrong then it's potentially dangerous for the dog right so that's the idea of the correction is we make the dog correct and so we can't just get to doing that everybody you know wants to talk about off-leash control and off-leash freedom and there's the truth is that the path to off-leash control is a lot of unleash control right and so the idea would be via a long line or you know e-collar whatever it is whatever path you decide you want to go with the dog is that we then have to have a learning phase where the dog understands i can escape some form of pressure by performing the behavior that you've asked right that's escape escape and avoidance training is exactly that that the dog learns i can escape a pressure something happens and you know that would be in the learning phase that would

be pulling them on the long line so the dog's more interested in something that's out there and you want them to come back let me go back a step and say of course we want to teach everything that we can motivationally right so of course it's easy to teach a positive recall where we say like hey i have something that you want over here come to me and you can get it right and that's fine so long as the motivational math adds up so what if you can reward your dog from a zero to ten if it has hobbies and interests of things as zero to ten right if you have food and to your dog food is a seven out of ten but there's another dog or a bird that's flying past or whatever that's out there and that bird is a ten out of ten you don't have a recall right because you're holding a seven the dog's chasing a ten and you say hey come get this seven the dog goes now there's a ten over here that's not happening right so that's why we would always want to layer some form of pressure so that if we find ourselves in a circumstance where the motivational math just doesn't add up we have a way of saying to the dog like hey but you have to i can devalue what's out there right i can make you want to avoid doing that so we start on the leash right so the dog knows how to come back we put them in a position where they're likely to but not guaranteed and we call them and if they don't we literally hand over hand drag them in right and it's like here take your reinforcer that's available to you right you escape the pressure of me pulling you in by getting to me take the reinforcer which you never really wanted anyway but i'm gonna offer it to you and then your real reinforcer is you get to go back to whatever it was that you were doing out there right so it's not like i took you know the thing away from you that you're out there interested in it's that i i gave you something else i i interrupted your access to that other thing i gave you something else and i'll let you go back to it right so then ultimately that would be the dog is escaping the pressure because you're pulling them in and then eventually what happens is you call the dog and the dog goes i know she's only got food and that that's a seven to me and that i'm doing something that is way more interesting to me and that's a 10 over here but i also know there's no way that she's going to let me stay out here so rather than escape the pressure that she's going to force me to come back i can just avoid that and go running back and grab the food and then go back to what i'm going to do right so that's how that's a correction where

we're showing the dog you escape it in a learning phase and then later that dog chooses to avoid it there can be reasons and ways we would teach a dog to avoid right so a void could be via the volume or the intensity of what we're the pressure that we're giving that's possible but more often than not the dog will avoid it just because they know how like they go okay this is the chain that's going to happen she's going to call me i'm not going to want to come she's going to hand over hand drag me back she's going to put a piece of food in my mouth and she's going to release me how about we just avoid this like drag me in section and then me not wanting to come in section i just sprint back grab that food and i get back to it because i can avoid that whole you know nonsense in the middle and that's the power of the corrections right so it gives us the ability to compel the dog in that moment to do what they want to do and then imagine that the dog is on the long line or is on the e-collar or whatever and one day you have your training is insufficient and or you're faced with a scenario that you didn't train for right and you think well this is not going to work and you call the dog and the dog says no i'm not like this is too much this is an 11 out of 10 right i'm not coming back for your seven in that moment any pressure that we apply the dog will know uh got it like i have to come back and i know how to turn off that pressure because there was a learning phase i know that that long line that e collar whatever it is when i come back that will turn off and i'll take my reinforcer and i get to go back to work anyway so that's a correction in that moment right because we made the dog correct and i think you know that's my long answer for why aggression's important is that some of the things we teach our dogs we absolutely need them to do it because the circumstances that we put these dogs in is not natural right like if you live on the farm and the dog runs around does what it does and comes back for dinner at night maybe then yeah maybe you don't need to correct your dog right if the dog just lives super harmoniously in where it is but the positions we put these dogs in the corrections that we give them the compelling actions that we give them is to help them navigate a world that they're not built for right so we need to be able to tell the dog like hey i know this doesn't seem intuitive to you that you should do this right now it doesn't seem like the thing you want to do but i need you to right and leaving that till the moment where you really

need it to happen is not going to work you need to have a learning phase you need to teach the dog that pressure so that the dog will do it and know how to turn that pressure off because there is a learning phase and in that moment it will work rather than just scare the dog or shut it down and when you're teaching your the puppies are you using um uh all leash uh what kind of coffee yeah yeah so with puppies you know like it's flat collars pretty much all around right or harnesses even and so it's a lot of like with young dogs it's a lot of showing them what you want right because you've got to educate them and then it's maintaining like implementing a little bit of pressure in that learning phase so of course what will happen with a young puppy is he's like you know i take puppies everywhere i have them on a harness with a flexi lead right and if for whatever reason i need that puppy to come back for me i would click because that's you know my recall he's going to come back and get food and if for whatever reason in that moment if i click and the dog doesn't come back i'm hand over hand dragging that dog in right it's my job to keep him safe i'm not going to let him stay out there and so that for that puppy is the first learning phase of pressure right it's that like i'll get dragged back and it's not people sort of have this it's really easy to paint people who would train that way as a villain and say oh he's gonna force his puppy and it's like i'm just gonna drag him back and he's harness right like it's it's not that big of a deal yeah like he's dragging me everywhere in his harness anyway like it's the amount of pressure that he was choosing to put himself in um and okay hold on i'm gonna go we got a bunch of questions for you okay um let's see oh my gosh where do i start okay i'm going to skip over the um someone's asking about a prong do you use a prawn collar yeah i use brown colors for sure yeah absolutely how old um do you typically so for me i i really prefer not to put ages to any training technique or tool i think it's when the dog is ready for it or when the circumstance you know dictates it right so i think that sometimes in dog training we're really overly prescript and it's not it's not helpful to the individual dog because you know i would say a lot of tools we're not going to use until we're ready to layer that pressure in and that day for some dogs may actually never come right so like some dogs may never need that and other dogs may need it at a very young age and it depends on how

quickly you need to be able to compel behaviors right that would decide so is the dog ready for it and do i actually need this to happen right now right like so that would be lots of the factors and it's the same as when you're teaching any behavior a lot of people in dogs get really caught up around the idea of like how many reps and for how long and you go well i don't know but the dog will double dictate that and the dog shows us that he's confident in that we'll go to the next step and it's the same as using any sort of prong collar eco any form of tool would be like when do we need it when is it the tool that we need to use and prong collar has so many functions you know is are we going to use it as a negative reinforcement tool are we going to use it as a punishment tool you know what's our intent intention here and what are we trying to teach to the dog so that's my again long answer for yeah when the dogs are ready right so to um piggyback off that boomerang the sharp dog is is asking um i'm correcting with a prong or correcting with a prong sometimes causes her to snarl try to bite me or what do i do yeah okay oh there's probably not enough information to give good advice on right so like if you are if your dog is uh if if you think you're correcting with the prong and your dog turns and snarls and tries to bite you you're probably not correcting at that moment you're going into battle right and and that's one of the things that i absolutely never ever want to do with my dog is going to battle with my dog right like you know i would say that you know to speak really frankly about anyone that's dog is doing that to them and if it's your dog and we can yeah there's all these things that we would talk about genetic issues and environment issues so we don't know any of the history right but if your dog is growling and snarling at you i would say that their interpretation of the pressure you're using is unclear to them right because it seems to them like so you know negative reinforcement let's talk about that right negative reinforcement is uh a mild discomfort that is turned off via a specific behavior right now imagine you're using a prong collar and you intend to intend to teach a specific behavior to a dog and you use too much pressure right you you hurt the dog and the dog decides hey like i'm not cool with that you need to stop it and comes at you and like because it's clear especially by a prone collar you're holding the leash like it's very clear to the dog that you're doing it and if your relationship with the dog is

such that the dog isn't willing to accept that from you as well as if you're asking something that's unfair or if there is no other clear path to the dog out of that pressure you could the dog could decide the path out of this pressure is by biting you right and the problem is they're right so if you are nagging at the dog or you're correcting the dog for whatever reason and the dog decides hey that's unacceptable and turns around and starts barking smiling growling trying to bite you and you stop well there it is right the dog escaped the pressure by trying to bite you remember what i said when i'm talking about that recall eventually the dog decides i will just avoid that pressure right and so the real danger then is when you clip up your dog to the prong eventually the dog will bite you because the dog goes hey i know that we're about to go through this whole fight and it finishes when i bite you how about we avoid the fight and i'll just bite you right so it's not to say that the prong is a bad tool it's to say that the way that it is used sometimes is not it is not always the right tool and it's not always the right time to use that tool so like if we say like would you use uh would you use a prong on an aggressive dog yeah of course i would absolutely but in a very specific way as part of a overall training technique right like a whole plan and the problem will just be a very small part of that so i think unfortunately sometimes you know especially these days when like with so much half information around when people would say do you use a prong and aggressive dog treatment yes absolutely okay cool i'm gonna put this prong on bang bang bang right and then the dog goes whoa this is not part of an overall training plan this is just you smashing me with this prong i'm gonna stop you doing that right so that's kind of the issues that we can face with any form of pressure is that whatever path the dog decides to turn it off if it is successful in turning it off it will continue to do that as well as potentially avoid that pressure in the future so uh you know that's one of the things we often see is sometimes you know especially i work with a lot of uh police and military dog handlers and sometimes you see the relationship isn't there between them and the dogs really do see their handler as some sort of opposition right and especially guys are strong and they're used to you know they do have incredibly tough dogs right and so they that are designed to you know have been bred to be able to withstand that kind of

pressure and it's not uncommon to see the dog a lot of people will refer to you know those dogs as handler aggressive and and for sure handle aggression can be a genetic trait like absolutely that's a possibility it can be but more often than not it's learned in that you have been unclear with the dog as to what you want the dog's gotten angry at you and then that has stopped the pressure and the dog goes well that's what you wanted and it's actually really sad like i one of the times i had at an event when i explained this to a handler and explained this is why his dog was handler aggressive and was actually trying to bite him like the dog loves you man like the dog sleeps on his bed it was just in a really specific circumstance in a really specific environment that the dog would do that and i was like you know you have to understand you're putting this dog in a really horrific place in his mind where he thinks his only option to survive is to bite his master right so but like that that will happen that if he's convinced he's trying to kill me and for whatever reason this is the circumstance that brings that on if that's the decision the dog has made and he decides he's gonna the only way to turn that off is by biting you you have to sort of put it yourself in that dog's shoes and think what a horrific situation to be the person i care about and love the most in the world and we work together we spend all day together but in this circumstance i have to bite you or you'll kill me right if that's what the dog has decided so we've got to use all these kind of things really uh intentionally and you know with a clear purpose and like i say any form of pressure like especially most of us like the people involved in nepaper we get asked to talk about these sorts of things and it's i'm happy to talk about corrections and why they're important and all those sorts of things but we have to remember that it's just one piece of a big picture of training because to just whack a tool on a dog and go straight to the correction you can't do that because you can't make a dog correct when you haven't taught him anything in the first place right remember that was the the cornerstone of it is we're gonna make the dog correct so we can't just go to doing that we've got to develop a relationship we've got to show the dog what we do want and then we can say hey man i don't want you to do that and then don't worry yeah cool got it because like i like you for starters and you have shown me paths to success elsewhere in the path in the past i believe you there's a path to that now

and i'll take that path rather than just having a fight with you over this one thing i want to do so for for boomerang um what do you think is the best approach do you think she should take off the prong and yeah so i would leave that prong for a little while and you know like i would have to talk to her for an hour to find out what the real issue is and the circumstance and everything in which it's going down i'd hate to give advice that especially integration i would hate to give advice from a comment that would almost lead to someone being bitten but i would definitely get in touch with a trainer that would look at that whole picture and and certainly if you like one thing i like really powerful dogs like that's my shtick i like dogs that are willing to bite people and are willing to bite their handler and are willing to go to war as a result i never want to actually go to war with them like i want to i want to manage them in a way where they clearly see we're a team and we're working together we are not like it to those kind of dogs that are happy to bite you i'm like hey we are working together my man and i'm going to give you some inputs some of them physical that are going to help you succeed with me because i never want to have to get into a battle with a dog no way you know of course that happens there's moments where the dog yeah that always happens but it's it's it's never the path that we want okay thank you for that um pleasure okay all right uh are we getting never not chasing cats yeah we have a bunch on um okay we have a couple um reactivity questions but uh let's go with this one my dog's never not chasing cats okay yeah right so there's a lot to understand there right like i'd say that the dog is probably not never not chasing cats and so you know with a predatory chase type issue like that right there's a lot of there's a lot of aspects that could go into that and and we would talk about a program that would involve some form of differential reinforcement of other behaviors we would need to reinforce when the dog is not chasing cats which would be at some points but be in the presence of the cat and then like with that we would then if if pressure was what they're asking about like so they're going to use a prong collar we would then need to know have you taught an alternate behavior so what you could do and certainly what i have done with my own dog and cats because my melanois loves to chase cats every opportunity he gets is that the cat to him is a trigger for a behavior so in the i've taught him a behavior and for me the only place he would experience a

cat is like walking the streets so for him he has a heel that's not his competition he also he has a you know a flashy competition here he does on the left he has a flat kind of walking down the street loosely walk on the right right so to him the presence of a cat is a trigger to perform that behavior and so he sees a cat and he's like hey that is my command to perform that right side heel and that has been first taught absent the cat then in the presence of a cat at distance where he he sees i make sure he sees the cat then i give him that command right new signal the cat old signal the command and then i use whatever amount of compelling force it was to get him into that position i reinforce him when he's there all right so then that becomes and then if he were if we're walking down the street and he sees a cat and he hits the end of the line no matter what color he's wearing flat collar slip please collar doesn't matter that pressure to him is a correction for not healing on the right because the command was seeing the cat to heal on the right right and so that pressure then acts as oh yeah i didn't avoid it i hit it i took it and now i've got to come back i know how to turn that off by going into that right side so that would be one technique for dealing with that predatory chase because i want predatory chase from in other circumstances i don't want to punish it away the other option you would have then is to just punish the behaviour away so like a lot of the times with predatory chase depends on how committed the dog is to it and how much you can work proximity and control what it would be chasing if sometimes you can just stop progression altogether isolate the dog and punish for that behavior and that you know for most people is probably the path to go down but you know the specifics of how that would go again depend on your circumstance your environment your relationship the training you already have with the dog and your capacity to deliver that punishment you know where's it going to happen and how how can you stop the progression how are you the chasing of the cats right like that's the most important thing is that if your dog chases cats don't let him chase cats like you have to stop that and stop it physically and like we would say that you know stopping the progression of that behavior don't before it's reinforced if your dog chases cats and catches them you're in big trouble right because that's highly reinforcing and so you know you're really going to be motivated to do it again

and and especially with predatory chase stuff like that a lot of the times i don't actually need to catch it if you were to ask the dog why are you doing that he wouldn't have a good answer for you just like literally thousands of years of evolution has led me to do this right so it can be a difficult thing not impossible but a very difficult thing to get rid of almost certainly very very difficult bordering impossible to use just using some form of differential reinforcement when people say that they're able to just use differential reinforcement in a chase situation like that i would normally say chasing probably wasn't that bad to begin with right and so because normally something that's hardwire genetic like that no amount of positive reinforcement and other behavior is going to stop it you get at some point need to say like hey man you can't do that he's he's and he's a reason to avoid it right okay um someone asked about um uh leash reactivity and then also uh getting neutrality to strangers in public miss cheese yeah so um neutrality of strangers in public is is a a good one i raise a lot of puppies i i um and i i i do the opposite of what people kind of say and that like the working dogs that i'm involved with a lot of people say you know never let anyone pat your dog and all this you should be the only source of i don't mind that like i'm i'm cool like i want my dog to find value in people what i do though is like i don't let people reinforce my dog other than any sort of praise that they would give them right so when i'm way out with my dog and people say hey can i take it oh i'm like yeah sure right go for it and then while they're patting him and i don't let it go for long right i just have it like a couple of seconds i'll click or mark or whatever and the dog comes back to me and takes reinforcement from me right and so the end result is that my dog then sees people and is like hey i'm glad you're here but only because you lead to reinforcement from him you yourself are not the reinforcer you are the announcement that it's possible from him so in the end the dog like what you have with a puppy is that a puppy is you know he runs up to everybody and gets a couple of pats and then clicks and comes running back to you and you give them food and people go like that's the worst you're you're reinforcing your dog for running up to those people and i go yeah yeah it's fine right but then eventually a day comes where your puppy sees these people and looks at you and goes do we have to go

through the whole process like should i run out to them and then they pat me and you click and come give me food or do you want to just cut all that out and just give me the food now and you go yeah man like let's cut all that out and he sees the people and he looks at you and you go click here's your food the dog goes right so then what happens is the dog then is like hey i like people people are cool but they don't actually have any value to me other than the value that they announce is available from the handler so if you're starting fresh that's a great way to build neutrality so my you know my own malinois that's what he does he likes people people like but he's like you're valueless other than your presence so like i'm not gonna harass you for anything you know if your dog really likes being pat and cuddles that might backfire on you like if the value of what the person is providing it's more than what you provide then you know this that system might work so you need to maximize what you're providing um the other thing is you know neutrality is sometimes a lot of people you know again just use that term sort of go into battle with their dog over things that they could just teach the dog there's a pathway to get so if your dog is social usually when people say reactivity they kind of mean they're secretly mean he looks aggressive but he's actually social about it because usually they say aggressive when they mean aggressive right so if the dog is just like desperately trying to get to people you can show him hey man i'll let you do that right because if it's safe and appropriate to do that you can but there's a gateway and that gateway is a behavior that i need from you so you show to the dog like you know more often than not when we see people working sort of leash reactivity to people especially if it is you know whether it's a problem behavior or they're okay with it um a lot of the times you see people like they got their food as a reinforcer and the dog's desperately trying to get those people and they're like trying to stuff food in the dog's mouth and they get the dog to see it and they're like take this food and the dog's like i don't want your food i'd like and it's this big fight like i never fight with a dog over taking a reinforce so that that's that's insanity for me if i'm if i'm fighting with a dog overtaking it he doesn't want it what's really reinforcing is getting to go see those people so i call my dog and i you know by hook or by crook i make a behavior happen whether it's sit down whatever right and then i go cool like your reinforcer is

go see those people and so the dog then goes right when i see people i want there is a pathway to getting that right and so instead of it just being off the table because if it's off the table then we have to punish it we can't let it happen and of course it will happen sometime when we don't mean it to and that will put it on a variable schedule and actually strengthen it so like if we're going to punish it we must be 100 consistent and never allowed to happen which you know doesn't happen so what i want is the dog to say like hey there's that person i desperately want to get to those people i know a pathway to achieving that and then they become bad they look back to the handler and they're like i want that tell me how i can get it gives me the work that will make that available to me and then you have to convince them that that's true initially by letting them go to the people a lot and then later it becomes a variable schedule where they go like hey i want to go to those people in the same way i know you have the ball when you're doing obedience and you go yeah cool i need you to do this this this and this the dog goes got it like can i go to the people now and you're not a variable schedule tomorrow maybe that's like got me we'll try again tomorrow so as i say like all those techniques they're kind of uh minimizing the battle you'll have with the dog by just sort of working together and that clear communication i really think that that clarity is probably the most important thing in any dog training and so by saying that like hey man here's your clear path to getting what you want more often than not they'll be like sweet got it why not why would i why would i fight with you when there's a clear path to getting what i want i love that answer because it's it's just very well-rounded and i think i i think a lot of the times we're so stuck on the rules like don't pet my dog like don't do this like we're not about that like this is this is at the way we think um instead of okay it could be like this yeah you know let them be social let them figure it out but yeah especially in the biting dog space it's this real like some dogs are real aggressive like and some of the the good biting dogs that i like they're a one-man show and that nobody else can touch them and that's fine like that sometimes are like that that's fine but a lot of people in the working dog world have it like no he's gonna be my protection dog so or he's gonna be a whatever no one can ever pat him he can only see value from me he must be aloof to other people and that kind of stuff and it's like

kind of building yourself some liability there right like my dog he knows there's no there's not that much value in people and like he'll hang out with people it's fine he's kind of neutral to them and if i need my dog to always be suspicious of people and not allowed to ever find value and hanging out with people in order to be able to protect me or to bite when i say i have big problems in my bite work and development there so like my issue if you need your dog to re really be aloof and of everybody in order that they will bite everybody when you need them to your issue is not that you've made your dog aloof your issue is the way that you have developed the biting in that right so like you know as an example my dog will happily be patting and hanging out with people and then i can point it someone said bite him and you'll nail him and then i can tell him to let go and he'll be like back to hanging out with them right so but like i said there's genetic components to that so i wouldn't say that anybody who does that is wrong or anybody who's you know protection dog can't be packed by random people or whatever is wrong every dog's different but that's for me that's important i think like my dog's still gonna be a dog 99 at the time he's just like my dude that i hang out with i don't need this like weapon that's always always on so what you're saying is there's a chance dogs can do protection can do um bite sports and also be friendly and like act like pet abs absolutely i've i've got the evidence of it sitting just behind this screen right like i said there's a huge genetic component to that like that's a long long conversation that we could have you know with multiple people across multiple topics but absolutely it's possible if the training is correct and the genetics are correct wow i can't believe it's already um almost an hour are you good on time yeah i got all day yeah okay awesome well not all day a bit i got plenty of time um okay how to face food rewards and create duration in um in training how to build duration build duration and was it fake how to face yeah so like on food rewards would say most of us in dog training these days are starting with what i would use the definition of a direct reward right so a direct award you know there's a lot of definitions the the way i would say it is that the pursuit of the reinforcer so if you've got the food in your hand the pursuit of it brings on the behavior so you know imagine we're teaching adults to sit people you know they always lure the

dog up and butt hits the floor but the truth is it takes a little while for the dog to understand like what their their body is doing in relation to the reinforcer because at the start when you're luring the dog's just trying to get the food right and that's fine luring's fine but if you want to call your dog trained especially if you intend to go into competition or have real life behaviors happen when you want them to you must get to an indirect reward and the indirect reward by my definition is when the dog is performing a behavior right in order to receive a paycheck that may or may not come right and they're that the paycheck is not necessarily visible to them so where people go wrong is they they lure for ages and then they just go right okay i've done 100 reps it's time to get rid of this lure and they just stop luring and the dogs like hey another picture of the behavior is the lure right so there has to be a progression and it's it's starting to fade that lure as soon as possible right and starting to fade the direct reward the idea that the dog is just trying to get the reinforcer you really want to have a plan for not staying in that mode you really want it as quickly as possible get to the indirect reward where the dog knows okay like i am doing this in order to earn a paycheck i don't see it on you but i believe that it could be there now when we're going to ask our dog to do things and have faith in us like dogs don't just trust people right so like in order for a dog to believe that something could be true it has to have at some point been true so like if i'm going to say to the dog hey i need you to heal and i'll pay you with the ball that's over there i can't all the food that's in my pocket i can't expect that he's going to heal in that rep as well as he did in the rep where i had the food right here showing it to you so it's it's going back in your training even though you think your dog knows something you have to go like hey you can do this and be paid in a way without you realizing there's a paycheck available and that's the progress to fading food rewards is that you have to then have the food reward but have it somewhere else where in the start the dog sees you put it there and you say you know like here is your bowl of food i'm putting it on the ground right here and via the leash i'm going to make you sit and i'm going to ask you to sit and if you don't i'm going to compel it because we've never shown this picture before and as soon as you do i'm going to release you and you get the food

and then it will be like okay but now it's around the corner okay now you didn't see me put it there and you get to these progressions to where the dog's like hey i've never asked you to do stuff without having the possibility to reinforce you so trust me it's there it's somewhere you just don't know where it is and that's kind of the beauty of markers right so like when we're loading a marker we usually say you've got kind of one to two seconds like when you click to deliver the food click deliver the food but once it's loaded you have a much longer period i mean like i've heard people say it's up to eight seconds right to maintain a conditioned response so i can ask the dog to do something click and then i've got eight seconds i could get down to my car and get the ball out of my car and give it to my dog within eight seconds and him understand what he did back there was what he's getting paid the ball for which is down here right so using clear markers having that clarity of communication is the way to fade the food law you've got to have a plan for it take a step back don't be afraid to take a step back and show the dog like hey it's here i promise it's here the other thing you can do is kind of like trick the dog a little bit by baiting like if you're dealing with a pet dog one of the things that you know i stole this idea from a friend of mine jay jack is like by easter egging the walk so if you have an issue of your dog not stopping at the corner where you want him to stop you can pry to the dog going with going with the dog go and put your reinforcer there ready for you so you leave the house and the dog looks at you and goes you don't look like you have any reinforces on you don't have the treat pouch you don't have whatever you get there you say to the dog hey i need you to do this behavior the dog goes no i'm not doing that right because you didn't bring the reinforcer that's the time we would give a correction we compel the dog to do it and then we go like surprise i had it hidden here all along and the dog then goes whoa could be anywhere could be any time and like i say you only have to do that a few times it's not like you're doing that every day you have to do that a few times before the dog goes that could be gonna happen now and then it's just you know variable reinforcement maintaining the the schedule of reinforcement so the behavior stays alive and your home and hose from there great answer love that easter egg okay anna and brutal can you talk about the difference between drive and frustration for example a dog that's crazy photographed giving

commands and eyes going black okay so like drive this is like a five hour conversation so uh drive is desire right so we talk about what drive is that dog in and we can really like we can really sort of distill that down by saying what does your dog want in that moment right what is his compelling action what what is he what is going to fulfill him in that time so drive would be like you know a lot of the times when we're playing tug that's like prey drive like that's what we're t we're kicking into the idea that the dog wants to in his mind in his imagination as a rabbit he's chased it he struck it he's fighting it he make sure it's dead and then he's gonna parade it like yeah i won and then he's gonna eat it right and so that's the game of tug we have to kind of find a way to replicate that frustration is known to increase drive right because what we're doing is showing the dog here's what you want but you can't have it just yet until you show me a level of intensity that will get it and so a lot of the times people we talk about building drives real common thing build drive build drive build drive a dog has the amount of drive that it has right what we can do is get them to express it better right and we do that by frustrating them or deprivating them so we'd say like he i know you want this tug and while you're free to do whatever you want i can uh wave this tug and you'll like show some interest in it and then strike it but if i back tie you and wave this tug around and do it like do my sexy dance with the target in front of you that will make the dog like sure really want that and then you you can then give him that and he goes all right that level of intensity and drive is what led to me getting it that's the level of intensity of drive i should show in order to earn that reinforcer and then through careful training that's how we then teach behaviors and we can carry over the level of drive the dog shows for the reinforcer in to you know manifest as the level of drive the dog displays in the work by using frustration to build drive we should we definitely can and should but there's a point of diminishing return where we lose clarity and like i said yeah one of the most important things in dog training is clarity clarity and communication between us clarity in the mind of the dog you know there's that's a that's a that's an hour-long conversation of what clarity is but once you lose clarity you're probably not being very effective in your training anymore and so by using two like and we see this a lot where

you know particularly in the bite sports where we back thai dogs and we we you know we're using the whip or we agitate them with the stick or whatever it is to really get them as high as we can there can be a point of diminishing return and for some dogs that point of diminishing return is because we go so high in intensity that they don't have any more and they go oh well i give up and i'm not going to show you that intensity anymore and start to go down and if were to reinforce in that moment then the dog would be like okay i shouldn't show my maximum intensity i should just scale it back down a little bit so that's a problem but with some dogs we go like this is a usable amount of intensity that's good and clear and then we can go past that into you've lost your mind and what happens from here is not going to actually be helpful in our training and we want to surf around that that top right like where it's still useful but not that the way the dog loses clarity so managing that can be really difficult and if you like i say the big you know big part of everything we talk about in training is the sequencing classical conditioning so if you regularly put your dog in a back tie and work him to the point of frustration where he loses his mind eventually the moment you put him on that back tie he'll lose his mind right because whether you try and frustrate him or not because he's just conditioned response when i get clicked up here you're about to do the thing i'll i'll i'll give you the show so reduce it so it sounds like if she's built too much frustration it might be helpful to reduce the drive and there would be a couple of ways you could do that sort of like without going into too much detail it would be reinforcing before the dog loses its mind or waiting for it to lose its mind and on the way back down where it's clearer again giving it the reinforcement that would be like a drive capping exercise that's a little bit more complicated than just that right than explaining that but it's about showing the dog like there's a level of intensity that's useful there's a level of intensity that's unacceptably low and there's a level of intensity that's unusefully and therefore unacceptably high right and and where that is on every dog is different that's within their genetic bandwidth of capability for clarity that's definitely something i would have to work on with reika because um she is is very vocal and we've been working on this um i i conditioned her to uh know that if she whines a lot you know we'd be training in public i don't want her whining

it's like embarrassing so then i throw the ball and now you know when i'm training her so now i'm just trying to figure out that balance of uh like teaching her that the whining i don't want the whining i know a lot of people like like that she's vocal but for me i do i don't um so yeah i'm trying to figure that out it's a tricky conversation right because a lot of people would say it's a loss of clarity and in some cases it absolutely can be um and in other cases it can absolutely be a learned behavior and in in others it can just be the dog likes to make noise right so like my own dog for example is a noisy dog he in he's vocal he enjoys barking barking is self-reinforcing to him he sometimes just stands around and goes ruff ruff ruff right just because it's fun to do even though he has no intention of some outcome of that barking so there's there's lots of ways that like when there's whining or vocalization in the work there's loads of ways that we can manage or treat that so like if you're you know like a positive only technique or like minimum pressure technique would be to manage arousal right so like that there's a as i've said before there's a certain level of arousal where that is going to happen and if you wanted to just um you know stay motivational and not ever tip into any sort of like you know negative consequence for it is you just avoid it and so you slowly build that arousal level to the point where the dog is like right on the cusp of your whining but doesn't and then you reinforce and you train at that level and that will allow you over time to slowly inflate that balloon where you can stay below the level of arousal that causes that warning that can be a frustratingly long process and very difficult because the issue is like the moment that you do by accident in build you go over that and there's a whining or a vocalization in one way or another you've lost right and the session you really it's very difficult to do anything about that in that moment the other would be you know managing around a lot of the reinforces in the environment but also giving a consequence for it and like you need to show the dog in that moment there's a consequence to tipping over into that level of arousal and so cap yourself right to keep you instead of me managing it via your access to what is causing that arousal you need to be in control of that yourself and that would you know take on the form of like stopping the progression like you're no longer going forward you're no longer doing this and isolate the dog and then you could go into

a form of punishment for it and whether that would be punishment be you know the pressure that you use depending on your technique and how you're going to do it would determine whether that is uh a negative reinforcement into the correct behavior because the the picture of the correct behavior does not involve vocalization so you might have to convey to the dog hey like you're healing for example or imagine the dog sit in a seat right and you the dog starts barks in the sea if you were to afford like apply some form of pressure and the dog that communicates the dog i want you to sit only and sitting does not involve barking right so that can be really hard to do you could do that by pressure but you can also do it by sort of incompatible behaviors so you can manage it and hope that it goes away in those over rousing situations wiring compatible behavior which i've done by like holding a pipe for example so like you can't bark or wine while you're holding a pipe so i can get the dog to work and hold a pipe in its mouth and that makes an incompatible behavior and over time the hope is that the whining goes away right so that can work not always but can the other thing then is to punish it so you find a way to isolate the whining absent from the behavior that the dog's doing and go like hey you can't do that right and there's many forms and ways in which that would happen so like all these kind of questions they'd never i could give you one answer or say like you do this but that may not work right and and it depends with everything that the dog any behavior that we want to get rid of or cultivate all of it really depends on the mental state of the dog like where is that coming from like why is that dog doing that and sometimes i don't ever need to address the behavior i can just take away the reason the dog is performing the behavior and then it goes away by itself right so there's there's a lot of you know that many roads lead to rome and sometimes the beth road is the like squiggly one that goes all over the place because the direct one can sometimes just sort of yeah we can stop a behavior or we can start a behavior right but it the more successful one is the path of least resistance where we say the dog like hey i want to work with you man like let's let's do this together let's find out why you're doing that and see if we can fix that mentally rather than having to fix it physically well thank you i'll check back in with you and in a month to let you know what we're doing um boris pal what are your favorite uses for the e-collar uh so

everything um so ultimately the e-collar is just a form of pressure we can deliver at distance right and so uh there's not like there's a specific thing that i would teach with the e-collar if i'm in a place where i'm using the e-collar if i'm on a dog where i'm using the e-collar uh you know ultimately if you if you want your dog to be wearing they call a lot of pet dog people especially in the states if you can wear an e-collar just kicking around in the streets which you can't do where i am um you would ultimately want your dog to understand the e-collar can take on the form of a correction right so that the dog does exactly what you want has total off-lease freedom and complies to your behaviors not just because he really wants to but because you've shown him motivationally but also because you know you can show them that an aversive will come if you don't perform these tasks and the idea is that we want that into every single behavior so like i don't have a thing that i teach with the e-collar there's no way i would say like this is the e-collar thing that i teach what i want to do is find a way to layer the pressure of the e-coli over every behavior that i teach so that the e-coli can be used as an adversive that the dog will want or avoid or the dog can be used as a correction that the dog knows how to work through to perform the correct behavior in order to you know avoid feeling that in the future so there's loads of things you can do with the e-collar i mean everything from basic recall to you know empowering bite work like i can make biting better by the e-collar and it's a i think it's sort of one of the most misunderstood and under-utilized tools i think that sort of limiting it you know of course the new color is at the top levels paint compliance it hurts like hell and the dog goes right got it i'm not i'm gonna stop whatever i was doing but there's a lot of things we can do with it in other forms and as a communication tool or we can layer it over commands and we can communicate really effectively to the dog the other thing is it's a tactile feedback so you can at a time when your dog can't necessarily hear you he can feel you you can reach out and touch the dog and into really low levels like you know again this is a topic i could talk on for hours but uh the really low levels of the e-collar are you know they have the function that you give them because it's an input that the dog doesn't understand so a lot of times people put an e-collar on their dog and they go like oh it's not doing anything and he can't

feel it right and it's like no he feels it it just doesn't have a value to him he doesn't know what to do with that and so with those much lower levels before you enter into plank compliance before the dog feels like [ __ ] i want that to stop you can make the dog think oh that has a function that is in this context the command and i will turn it off i will turn off that pressure via performing an action or you know what some people have accidentally done as they teach the dog you know via a technique that we would use on purpose in some circumstances some people teach their dog to willingly endure the e-collar right just so that and and then the problem is if you teach that at a low level where the dog goes like right i'll endure this to get what i want as the levels go up the dog goes whoa like i have no choice but to endure this to get what i want and so you can you can certainly see dogs that get themselves stuck in a loop where they they desperately don't want to feel the echo but they don't know how and it appears as though they're seeking it out but in reality they've just sort of tricked themselves into thinking it's part of the progression so like i say it's complicated but there's no one thing i would usually call for to answer the question it's anything that i need off-leash control for okay this is on could you discuss about the chameleon 3e colors and advantages of bite of buying it do you want to do this are you affiliated with the chameleon i'm not affiliated with him but it's a friend um like i can say i think that the chameleon is um probably the best equaller out there i think that it's the to my knowledge what i'd say about e-colis is that uh the chameleons are only e-coli i know that was made by a dog trainer and so and and not just made by dog trainer made by probably one of the best ever so it's a trainer's tool it has all the functions that as a trainer you would want so i think that it is absolutely worthwhile getting okay thank you diesel um let's see okay um tracker uh intimidation is intimidation normal with mouths in this case when mom and dog are by themselves and once dog comes home comes out to join tracker begins to bite mom wait when mom and dad are by themselves mom and dog and once dad comes home to join tracker begins to bite mom i'm not sure i understand a question well enough to answer it whatever mom and dad are and who tracker is uh can uh can you talk about box feeding yeah um it's just gonna be a long one no i want to know um so the boxing is something i learned from about there's loads of people all around me

using that now and everybody's sort of in different fashions and i kind of have my own flair in which i do it um and we kind of accidentally made it popular on the podcast in the early days so i do a podcast um you know where nearly i think 160 something episodes in but episode four was how to use this box and you know i probably wasn't as good at teaching it then and i didn't realize however many hundred thousand people have listened to it so i i could have done a better job and so there's better information out there and if you go to our patreon there's really good um step-by-step how to use the box but the idea of the box is that it's just a toughening technique and so the idea is the truth be told is it's kind of like teaching your dog to meditate and and and you know one of the forms of meditation is that we you know people who are bad at meditating right they sit down and they go right like clear your mind um don't think of anything focus on your breathing right that one thing you're breathing and for a few seconds they focus on their breathing and then they go like where do flies go at night and then they go oh wait no i'm meant to be thinking about nothing and they go back to their breathing and then a few seconds later they say oh did i shut the front door before i left oh i shouldn't worry about that and i go back to my breathing and those people usually say i'm bad at meditation and then what they fail to understand is like that's what meditation is every time that you choose to focus on one thing let your mind wander choose not realize that your mind is not serving you in that moment you're not serving yourself choose to ignore that and come back to the task at hand that's kind of one bicep curl for your brain all right so the idea is that we wanted to find a way to do that with the dog so what we do is we we have the dog do a single job of putting the head in the box right and we teach just like we would an article indication in tracking and in fact i do use a tracking style article in the box and all we're asking the dog to do is focus on that the box is handy because it limits his vision and so he's really got to focus on that one task and then what we you know sort of kindly do and slowly implement is the way to flies go at night so we distract the dog in one way or another and in the learning of very early phases we don't mind if the dog looks up and goes oh that's you stamping your feet i'll get back to work and then before too long when you stamp your feet the dog's like that's not for me that's not important i'll stay here and i'm

going to get paid in here we trickle food into the box so we're like we if we're giving a duration uh reinforcer for keeping your head in the box right so the idea is that we're showing the dog with a disposable behavior we're not no one needs to meditate like when your house is on fire nobody sits down and goes like right but the skills that you use through meditating at that moment you go this is not important this is what's important let's like are you able to call to action the idea is to do the same with the dog so we use the box and it's not as though we ever actually need our dog to put their head in the box it's just uh behavior and you can do it with any behavior but i just choose to do it with the box and you can then show the dog like don't worry about that other stuff in fact other things happening out there are not for you to stay in the tasks that you're doing and that way we can desensitize and counter condition the dog to any distraction being a keep on going signal then we can work that up to being like actually scary stuff that isn't ever gonna like you know it beholds us of course to never actually do anything that could hurt or harm the dog so we have like hey here's something that you would be concerned about or here's something really distracting so we might use a can curtain or cloud a stick or something like that and we show the dog that that noise indicates food is going to come into the box so long as you keep your head in there you just keep ignore that noise and stay on task so for a pet dog or any dog really what we end up doing them is showing them that some sort of difficulty and struggle is best ignored stay on the task you're doing in spite of what's going on around you stay on the task that you're doing reinforcement will come to you we also show them like if we're going to touch them say especially if we're going to hit them with a clutter stick or something like that that they'll later happen in their sports we show that that is actually a marker for reinforcement so i touch my dog with the stick and then i throw food into the box and so he goes like oh that hitting with the stick is a good thing it means that i'm about to get reinforcement and of course what happens with the bite work is the dog does get hit by the decoy with the stick and then he goes like that's a good thing i enjoy you hitting with that and then he punches him in the bite and gets his reinforcement right so it's a truth throughout the dog so for pet dogs it really truly strengthens their nerves right so like every dog has a genetic bandwidth of

capability and and we have to acknowledge that like some dogs on their best day will never be as good as some dogs on their worst day right but what we want to do is get their their ability to withstand difficulty struggle right is to build that to the absolute maximum and have them almost enjoy struggle because they know the struggle will end and that that will lead to some sort of positive reinforcement so you get these dogs that become much more like what we're truly trying to build is just a better version of themselves and now around the world there's probably you know thousands and thousands of dogs that have been doing this box feeding all of them even people who don't follow my advice very well and people who misinterpreted me and do all kinds of crazy things um it still works right like it still works pretty well and and if it doesn't work it's kind of no measure for that and it's not a direct you're not going to see like by doing one box session today you're not going to see any improvement this afternoon it's just like a slowly better version of the exactly like meditation and breath work in people right it's not going to fix you right now but it's going to make you feel better all around and make you a better version of yourself later on the other thing is that by having those kind of pressures say for a sport or working dog for having those kinds of pressures be a keep on going signal we inoculate our dog against distractions people will use later say for example right like my dog puts his head in the box and i rattle the clatter stick and then i throw food in now of course there's a puppy i rattle the clatter stick he's going to look at it right and i said that's not for you and i show him ignore that keep your head in the box so when i'm healing now as an adult and some decoy rattles the clutter stick at my dog for most people that is a distraction or a motivator and the dog they're gonna lose their dog in the healing right the dog then goes like that that rattling is for me that means i should bite because we only ever use the clatter stick in the bite work clad a stick by clavistic bite works so that's what the trick right we get a rattle and then the decoy is going to leave the healing and go to the bite work that's the whole point of why we do it well in the box if i rattle food in the box rattle food in the box i'm showing the dog when you hear that clatter stick if you're already locked in a behavior ignore the clutter stick but it leads to reinforcement so when i'm healing around and the decoy rattles the classic of my dog he may

as well be saying to the dog yeah good boy keep going right keep doing what you're doing keep healing really well against your master while he's rattling the clatters to stick trying to steal my dog so it's just one of these sort of little tricks you know what i mean and it kind of got out of hand a lot of people talk about box feeding there's a lot of people that think it's the dumbest thing in the world you know good for them whatever right but it's got a lot of utility and it's a behavior that uh you get for free and there's very little fall out from and and like i say there's not a dog i know that doesn't benefit from it in one way or another really nervous kind of scared dogs will get better it's not that they're going to be the best but they will get better and even if you have like my dog who genetically is very strong he would have good nerves no matter what happened to him it's handy because i can inoculate him to things that will be used as a distraction against him later so that's box fading pat can you this is the personal request can you do an updated box feeding video yes i have them there so within our patreon so like i have an online course and there's heaps of box feeding stuff in there and within our patreon people can pay three bucks and they'll get access to the updated version and it's me in front of the camera explaining it all there but if you google like there's so many people teaching it now if you google it and like even if so within the podcast the canine paradigm we have a discussion group on facebook if you get in there and search box feeding you'll be you'll be busy for three days reading and watching all the videos and seeing all the information on it so there's heaps of resources out there or you can pay three bucks and watch me do the video awesome i mean i think box feeding uh would be good for everyone that submitted questions yeah and it's always like it's with all these reactivity issues and stuff it's a piece of the puzzle it's not going to fix your issue right like it's just it's a piece um and like i say any opportunity we have to strengthen and toughen our dog's nerves we should take and it's a great one to do that and it's one that you can do alone you don't need any help and the big thing i should say is the dimensions of the box don't matter please no one message me asking what the dimensions of the box are the box is nominal could be anything it doesn't even have to be a box there's people that use buckets there's people that use top plants there's people that don't use a box at all

and just do it straight to a washer on the floor it doesn't matter just the concept is the same um i have a bunch of people are talking about your podcast where can we um hear more from you where can uh people follow you yeah so um my podcast i do with my good friend glenn cook so it's called the k9 paradigm and we're on everything uh all the podcast apps uh we have a patreon that people can check out that's got really technical information in there so the podcast is sometimes us just waffling to each other um sometimes interviews and sometimes you know technical dog training stuff but the patreon is just mostly quite technical dog training information three bucks a month gets you access to that or you can pay more depending on what information you want um my branding is all uh people can find me on facebook under my my just my name as well as uh operantk9 is my social media on here on instagram facebook is up front k9 and my website is operantk9.com and on there i have a couple of online courses i have a thing called the neapopo long story short which is like a 40 minute video sort of as quick and concise explanation of nepapo and how it works which is probably best for people who kind of understand dog training already and they're just sort of looking for that like how does it fit together the other thing i have is a like a boot camp study guide on there which was you know prior to the pandemic this year i was kind of set up to just be doing these boot camps like five day block training with people and i put together a study guide that was meant to prepare people for that so we didn't have to do any theory we could just hook straight into training dogs they would educate themselves online and prepare their dogs ready for us to just start training um so i had that kind of all put together when the world shut down and so i decided to just sell that as an online course so that's on my website as well and that's start to finish you could pretty much know nothing about dogs and end up knowing quite a lot if you followed that as well as even if you do know a lot it's probably a lot of very very technical information in there that you know sort of might might broaden your perspective on some things okay awesome and if we go to your link in bio or um okay the last question i'm going to we'll take it from gizmo milo resource guarding and seeing me as a resource um yeah good one um there's a few ways to deal with this right so first of all uh relationship is the first thing that i would examine right and so like should your dog see

you as a resource is the first sort of question and there might be reasons why the relationship is not in place and the dog sees you as being theirs right and that could be problematic but again there's a genetic component to that like a lot of blue cattle dogs are hardcore resource gardeners of their handlers in spite of the relationship and the training and everything else being in place right so it's not to say that there is a relationship problem but there could be the first thing is we've got to sort of identify like what does that resource guarding look like like what form does it take usually we would say it's against another dog rarely do people really if a dog is uh sort of barking long and growling at other people as they come in really do people call that resource guarding of them right it's usually when they say that they mean that it's from other dogs you know in all behavior that we want to get rid of the most important thing is that the display of the behavior can no longer be successful right so you when the dog is resource guarding you can't let that actually result in them protecting their resource if you want the resource guarding to leave so you know an example this is one way i've done it and don't take this as gospel for anyone that's watching this is not necessarily the path for your dog but one of the things i do is i'll back to either dog me and the dog can hang out if i'm the resource me and the dog can be hanging out and i walk another person and their dog close enough in that the dog starts to show that that resource guarding instinct and i don't want the big eruption i just want the very earliest onset of the behavior and the moment the dog does that i leave all right and so the dog is stuck there and his action made him lose his resource because what we don't want is that if he is aggressively protecting his resource the idea is he's keeping that dog away from you right and in the most extreme circumstances i could even show the dog the opposite occurs right so when another person and their dog walk in towards me if my dog shows aggression towards that other dog not only do i leave him there back tied where he can't do anything in some cases and this is the most extreme i could even walk up to that other dog and pat it right and then my dog shows like [ __ ] my aggressive response just had the total opposite effect of what i wanted it to have right and so that alone can be enough that like a few reps of that done correctly in the right circumstances setting it up properly can be enough for the dog to go like i'm not doing that again

because that had the opposite effect of what i wanted right and it's not to say like one or two reps will show you that working but that hasn't worked right like you gotta this is a long long progression over time and the idea is that you then convey to the dog like hey i will be neutral like at best i'll be neutral to that other dog you don't need first of all you don't need to and we could go into punishment and there's ways we might do that after we've left the dog there it's probably best explained in person or you know like really specifically for the case but the main thing is we want to show the dog like you're not successful in doing that that is not gonna work in fact it's having the opposite effect of what you want and so if you leave the dog if your dog blows up and it's like i want to come with you that's we're stopping that progression where i slay him saying like no like you you did this you caused me to leave via that aggression i'll stay with you i'll chill out with you and i'll never touch that other dog that other dog can come and circle around us and i'll ignore it if you stay cool with me we stay connected and i won't unlink to that other dog and you can show your dog that and again like i said much earlier is you show that to him by it being true like you have to show it and using that back tie allows him to be stuck there and be isolated and when you leave the dog like the thing to be careful about this is like it's one of the things i'm real like it's difficult explaining aggression treatment and that kind of stuff in this sort of circumstance because like that is a horrific punishment to your dog like it's not a physically uh abusive thing to do but you're breaking his heart right because the reason he's if the reason he's resource guardians he generally sees you as a resource and rarely a dog's protecting people when they say my dog's protecting me but if that case exists because sometimes it is sometimes it really does exist you're showing the dog you you lost me right like and so it's a horrific punishment there's no hands on the dog you're literally just walking away but it's the most it is in that time the worst thing the dog can imagine so you do that kind of stuff sparingly like don't you know you don't um don't muck around with that because you can really damage your relationship to the dog and so it's it's doing it at the lowest level of arousal not going too far there's a lot of control measures that you need to have in place to really make sure that works

but yeah that's kind of my best advice on resource guarding that's like a reverse easter egg yeah yeah yeah um also can you just kind of touch on um you mentioned it a little bit but why um it's not good for the dog to feel as though they own the owner yeah i think um relationship in the home is it's complex right and especially if you want to be training the way i like to train is i like to empower my dog massively right like we i like to make him think like what i would want is if you would ask my dog who's in charge i would genuinely want him to say him right i want that to happen but i'm much smarter than him so i can manipulate him into thinking that he's in control of certain aspects and feeling empowered by that but also at the same time actually being helpless right like so that's kind of the this balancing act that we want we're totally in control the dog does what we say when we want he feels powerful doing that he lives with us the way that we want him to live and he happily does that thinking he's in control i think where a lot of people go wrong is that their dog actually is in control right and so they're sometimes you know thinking that they're well maybe they're not doing on purpose but the dog is actually controlling their life and more often than not that leads to a lot of anxiety problems are offered that right so a lot of separation anxiety type issues are really not separation anxiety their structure their their relationship issues rather than separation anxiety um so it's really important that you show the dog like hey man like you feel good we're a team we work together but like at the end of the day you have to live your life the way that is important to you and the dog will adapt the dog will fit in but if you put the dog in a vacuum it will take over all right it's one of the interesting things like i don't think the dominance and that kind of thing like it's been largely outplayed in its role in training but in life it's it's undeniable right like in the way that you interact all those sorts of things like people are a dominance is environmentally circumstantial like there's so many different parts of it like take for example so i have two dogs right i have a malnour uh who is a big powerful thug of a dog uh and i have an itty bitty springer spaniel right and she is dominant over him in the house right she controls him she pushes him around she enforces her will on him she growls at him she bites him if he tries to take a ball like all kinds of things right the moment we leave the house there's a switch right because he's he's he doesn't express much

drive in the house right and so she does but the moment we go outside he expresses all his drive and it comes to a peak and she knows to just stay out of his way because he'll kill her to get the ball right in the house she can walk up to him and literally pull the kong clean out of his mouth and he just accepts it right she wouldn't dream of even chasing the same ball that he chases when we're outside the house right so dominance is a real thing and the same way you know like i don't fight with people online i don't do it people can say what they want to me and i'm just like yeah cool got it right i love fighting in real life right so the circumstances of dominance can change people can dominate me all they want on facebook and instagram i don't care but in real life that's not going to happen and so the same has to happen with your dogs you have to set up that circumstance where it's like hey dominance really is sort of a willingness to fight over a resource that's basically kind of what it comes down to right and so if you have showing no desire of these resources or control over the resources your dog will take control over them and if you don't assert like hey this is something i have and i'm smarter than you so i'm going to put you away and i'm going to take it now i'm not going to have to have that fight that i said i wanted to avoid if you don't do any of that the dog will go well clearly i'm in control here and he will assume that he's a dominant one and then of course he's going to enforce his dominance upon you in one way or another right and he will come he will manipulate you into getting what he wants by that so like i said dominus is a real thing it's not something that i you know play with much in training like i'm not going to say like you got to dominate that dog like that's not happening but it's going to happen in your home and that relationship and structure is going to be hugely you know based around that right um the other thing is as well like a lot of dogs if you put them in a position of dominance in the home they're not made for it right like very few dogs really want that right and but they'll fill a power vacuum when it's left and you know not that many dogs really see themselves or want to be the dominant dog like that it's not it's not like every dog's trying to raise the pack structure like it's not like there's a ladder like a corporate ladder they're trying to climb that's just not how they work if that were the case and lots of dogs were like that they'd fight non-stop but dogs typically get along right

so uh you you're kind of doing yourself your dog a disservice by letting it run rampant and letting it take over a lot of dogs are not capable of that and the aggression that you see that like resource guarding that people will call it is actually fear of losing like the pac i can't control this pack it's a lot like if people you know if you got promoted into a position at your work that you weren't ready for and then you're a bad leader because you're like [ __ ] i'm not actually up to this task right and i think a lot of people do that to their dogs they're like they make their dog feel as though they're in control because they let them run the house and then the dog has a little meltdown internally because he's like i'm not actually up to running this household like i'm a dog for god's sake i can't control these people right yeah good answer i'm glad that we wrap with that pat it's a pleasure talking to you i have learned so much and you have also um given me so many different uh ways of approaching i mean so many different uh issues that we face and just my relationship with rika so a pleasure i i'm definitely going to try out the box feeding yeah give it a go yeah nothing what's worse that can happen you waste some food that's all definitely so i'll post this um thank you again and uh have a good good rest your monday will do thank you very much we'll see you out there talk to you soon bye