에피소드 21 - 개 훈련에서 필요한 것과 원하는 것의 차이

then see how it's working as far as the dog goes and see if you need to change direction or or change what you're doing. But when you look at a YouTube video, it's there's no explanation much of the time um into the the pros and cons of that that specific technique or you know um type of training that they're showing. So you take your dog that might not need that type of training and you try it and of course it doesn't work or it makes it worse. >> Yeah. Yeah, back circling back to uh the thing with that what was the name of the organization that was in the news in Vegas? >> Working Dogs of Nevada. >> Working Dogs of Nevada. Yeah, it's things like that where usually you find people they either hide their methods because they aren't well they're not good and admittedly they probably know that or you know there's just something shady going on. And everyone comes around, you know, we we speak to a lot of customers through through the business. Um, and you know, even if they're not going to train with us and they say, "Oh, your prices are too much." You know, we're like, "Okay, we we we understand that." You know, we get that. Um, you know, and they'll they'll be like, "Do you have any recommendations on who might be more fitted for our budget?" And I don't have any real names um that I put out there, but what I do give them is kind of like a a meter stick on how to judge or how to inform themselves on whether a business will be worth their while to work with. And that's always going to begin with they have the ability to show them dogs that are currently in their program that they're currently training or that they've trained in the past. Right? So yeah, >> proof of work essentially they a business should be able to provide proof of work for the type of dog that you have. So, if you have a behavior modification dog, a dog that's got some reactivity, nerve issues, maybe some maladaptive behaviors, aggression, you know, whatever, they should be able to demonstrate behaviors with similar dogs, maybe similar breeds, similar behaviors, similar tendencies or triggers, and show you outcomes that they've been able to arrive at through their program. And typically for most people um like in corporate America that would be your resume your curriculum vet your CV right that would be your resume but in dog training there's the the only resume that matters and this has been I think mentioned on a few other podcasts but the only the only resume that matters is your video log resume or your pictographic resume which is showing dogs actually doing behaviorsh behaving well and that's that's typically going to be found on social media, right? So,

you know, my advice is always look up do some do some of your research, look at the the the the history of the company, how long have they been in business, how long have they been showing their work for, and if you can if if anything that you see resonates with you, probably a good fit, right? I'm not going to tell you who to or who not to train with. Um, in general, obviously, there's a few people that hit the news, local or national, that have been indicted for, you know, animal abuse and and other, you know, felonies or misdemeanor and things like that. That should clearly be avoided. And as a as an industry as a whole, we need to be be good about like helping people and clients steer clear of people like that. um because they just, you know, bring the rest of us down, right? But really, the only thing I say is like go look at their resume, find their historical proof of work, and if it resonates with you, that's that's probably and and they they seem to be in your price budget, then that's probably going to be a good fit for you. So, yeah. Um, but speaking of price, price price budget, right, that you said it's like you don't necessarily always want to go for the cheapest price when it comes to getting training for your dog. >> That's that's also true. Yeah. No, >> because if a person has spent >> time years um working their craft and also gone to you know training gone learned from multiple people um kept their studying you know up to date meaning looking at what other people were doing to see if if if there's anything they can add to their, you know, training to make it better. Um, it, you know, it costs money to do all that. >> Yeah, you're absolutely right. And, you know, the saying I, again, I think I've heard this on other podcasts, but, you know, the saying goes, if you think a good trainer is expensive, try paying a bad trainer for training because you'll spend more money with a bad trainer because you never end up getting the results you want. Right. And really, you're right. Yes, the the price doesn't necessarily dictate whether a training will be good or not, but usually and in a lot of cases where we where we like give them that rule of thumb for how to kind of like assess the quality of a trainer, they'll go out come do their research and then they a lot of them end up coming back and they're like, you know what, we went out saw it. you know, prices were lower, but you know, your your work, you know, speaks for itself, and we'd rather invest here knowing the outcomes are going to be a lot more lasting and and reliable than maybe paying a lesser price for something that might not work. So, a lot

of times they end up coming back anyways after they go out and scope the landscape. >> Yeah. And then you were talking about having video evidence, right? looking at a trainer and stuff. Now, definitely that's for if it's a cold like audience, meaning you the person doesn't know that trainer. They there's no they haven't they don't know anybody that's used them. Now, there has to be a way for them to see like the is this besides speaking with them, you know, to see what kind of work they do. On the other side of that is the like referrals. If there's a person you know very well and they have used that person and they speak highly of them, they like their work, they they like how their dog was after the training, now there's less video evidence needed and more of that social like, hey, I've used this person before and they did a good job. Um, >> yeah, that's yeah, and that's another good source to point them to is you can provide referrals or references of your work and say, "Hey, you know, this is a client we just worked with solve the same problem that you're you're looking at. If you'd like to talk to them, you know, we can make an arrangement for that." You know, normally you want to make sure that a client would be referencable before like volunteering that out. But but yeah, you're absolutely right. I think word of mouth referrals is rated as the highest form of conversion. When you get a customer who's been referred to you by someone else who's done business with you, that comes in as the highest uh likelihood to convert into like a paying customer. So, I think that is the best route to go um if you're an existing and established business. But as a trainer, for me especially, um probably for everybody, I the best feeling I get is when a person that you've helped train their dog when they say they want to refer you to other people. >> Yeah. >> Right. That shows that >> they the training you did was successful. They they viewed it as successful, right, for their dog. um they trust you because if you don't trust anybody, you're not going to refer you well, you shouldn't, you know, refer other people to that person because then they're going to look at you like, hey, you told me to go here and it was no good. >> Yeah. >> Right. So to refer somebody or some business, there has to be some kind of trust there. Um, which is why, like you said, referrals are like the highest conversion when it comes to business. >> Um, which is more, if you think about it, going away from dog training, how many people go to a doctor because they've looked at their credentials versus how many people go to a doctor

because their friends said they use them and they're great. Yeah, >> not too many people I I not too many people go to a doctor and ask for their credentials like what were their grades in school, right? What school did you go to? How you know how far up in the class did you graduate? You know, >> yeah, >> there might be some people that do that and the majority of people don't. They go what they go they do is that they're at work or they're with their friends and they go, "Oh, my back hurts." And then their friend goes, "Oh, you have to go see this chiropractor. They're great. I've been seeing them for years." And then you go there, you make an appointment and you go see the doctor. You never ask for their >> credentials or other references or >> Yeah. >> video of their work or anything like that, right? >> Absolutely. >> That happens for for almost every industry. >> Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Um I think we trust people who have already spent money uh be that have a have the outcome or that arrived at the outcome that we want as well. I think we we carry that a lot of weight with that type of a evidence-based referral. Um or or some people I mean like in legal terms that's like testimony, right? like someone's testimony, you know, um their their witness statement or whatever, you know, their experience, experiential statements, um carry a lot of weight. So, um and the same can be said of, you know, people that train and have bad experiences. Those can be very powerful in the opposite direction. So, you know, you always want to make sure to, you know, work hard. And that's the thing about dog training is like it's not a cookie cutter uh career. It's it's everything is unique. And this I was actually thinking about this today is like everyone has different like everyone has a different understanding or interest in what they want from their dog, right? Some people are fine to let their dog run the house. The dogs jumping off the couches, you know, bouncing off the walls. Some people are okay to live like that, you know? And then other people don't want to hear the dog like breathe with an open mouth, you know, like not not not really, but like they're more stringent. >> That's uh that brings up like I remember someone said the the dog keeps licking me, >> right? >> I don't want my dog to like me. >> Yeah. And I just thought it was like, well, that's every single dog. Like, they will lick you at some point. >> Yeah. >> It's just a natural thing they do. It's it's it's inherent in a dog, right? That if you get a dog, it's going to lick you. >> But like you said, they probably want a dog that just sits on its bed all day

and doesn't move. >> Yeah. They want it they they want the pet to activate or to turn on when it's convenient for them and they have the time and the the will to deal with the pet antics, right? >> Yeah. Um >> also that goes to thinking of when people have a dog that's 8 n 10 years old, right? Passes away from old age, whatever. Then they get a puppy. They what happens is they've forgotten how their 9-year-old dog that just passed, how it was when it was a puppy. They expect the puppy to be doing the things that their that their senior dog was doing after years and years and years of being with them and and being trained, you know. >> Yeah. M. >> So it's it's it's very like you have to take them back and say, "Hey, you know, this is how your other dog was. It's going to take time to rebuild this dog to be the same as your other one or close to it." >> Right. Yeah. >> And that it's that same comparison that makes owners, handlers, and trainers um guilty of like using the same method on different dogs, right? Where it may work for one dog and it doesn't work for the next, right? Because maybe they got competent luring a dog to train behaviors, but now their next dog that they're standing in front of is not a dog that will be successfully lured. Maybe it needs to be shaped, right? Or, you know, use a different road to get to the behavioral outcomes they're hoping to. Um, >> that's why I was thinking about, you know, when they talk about balance trainers, um, the mistake I think people think of that they when they hear balance trainers, they believe like they're going to use the equal amount of pressure and then on the other side the equal equal amount of positive reinforcement, say >> Mhm. to keep it balanced, >> right? >> But that's not correct, >> right? It has to it should never not should never, but it's never it almost never is going to be balanced because every single dog is different. >> Yes. >> So, one dog is going to be need 100% pressure and 0% positive reinforcement because they don't want any kind of positive reinforcement, right? Whereas the opposite will happen. One dog will only need 100% positive reinforcement and you'll never need to to really use pressure for anything because the dog is that one, you know, in a 100 one in a million dog that wants to do every single thing you ask it to do and distractions regardless of distractions or where it's at or, you know, environment. But that's why you're not going to be balanced ever. There's going to be dogs that need more pressure and dogs who need less pressure. Well, and this is this is I I like that you brought that up because this is a topic that came up

in our last gold school where we started talking about, you know, Maslo's hierarchy of needs where you have like the five levels of progression to where the top of the pyramid is the like self-actualization where you've like met your life's purpose and it looks like it's like nirvana like you know um and you you mentioned like this is something that Bart frequently says is when you have a dog that's constantly living in the top of the pyramid and self-actualization, like they're in the penthouse suite on the on the 20th floor. Um, those dogs need to be brought low and only experienced level one where their base level needs are being met, right? And then the dogs that have only lived in level one of that that that Maslo's hierarchy of needs need to experience what it feels like to have more luxury. Um or they say, you know, giving a dog marshmallows or giving the dog some like, you know, uh giving it like some some pricking it a little bit, you know. Um, like for example, I've got a dog with me right now, um, that we're training for a client. And this dog, really well-trained dog, it's a dog we delivered to a client four years ago. Um, technically, they were supposed to have been sending this dog back for maintenance training every year, but that that didn't happen. Um, they were just so satisfied with like every how everything was working out for them. But the dog lived in an outdoor property, had its own like dog, fancy dog run, caged dog run with a with an indoor house, temperature controlled and everything. And the dog came back to me because there were concerns about like the dog was starting to notice like the neighbors dogs and the the dogs on both sides of the fence were kind of going at each other and starting some like uh uh fence or barrier barrier fighting. Um, and so I get this dog and it's with me and the dog has been outside its whole life, never brought into the house, like just property dog. Um, and I I start bringing it into the house and I send it to place. The dog immediately knows what to do. Dog goes to place. And while the dog's on place, I start brushing the dog out because every day I brush this dog out. It's a German Shepherd. 80 85 lb German Shepherd needs to be brushed so that it's not constantly like shedding and all losing hair and just it needs to look good, right? And then I start doing its nails and the dog clearly has never had its nails done in the last four years. Like the nails are tremendous long in length. And so I'm doing all this like maintenance on the dog, grooming, uh, upkeep. And the dog is struggling against it. And really like starts kind of like mouththing at me and trying to

like air clacking at me and stuff. And I'm like, "No, just just suck it up and tolerate it, buddy. Like you don't get a choice in this. Like I'm not giving the dog a choice and whether he his hygiene is good because if you're going to live with me in my house, you're going to have a clean. You're going to look good. You're going to smell good. You're going to feel good." Bathed him. took him to a bath wash and he was they must have let him chase the sprinklers because I pull out the the hose wand and I start to spray the dog and he almost bites my hand off going after the nozzle and I'm like, "Oh my gosh." So, I had to like anchor him to the wall and I'm like spraying him like Super Soaker style this dog so that the water penetrates his double coat and and it's wild. But the long long and short of the story is that it took a few days, but on the third or fourth day, I'm grooming him and he starts like fighting it and then he just stands there. He looks at me and he starts licking my face, right? And he he he finally accepted it and he it I don't like I don't believe there's dog psychics. I don't think that's a thing. I know there are people out there who proclaim or or you know parade around as a dog psychic and they actually do business as a dog psychic. I don't think that's a thing. But in my mind, what I understood from that moment was that he hadn't been groomed. He hadn't had those needs met and hadn't been taken care of in that way. And in the beginning, he didn't want it. But once he realized it wasn't getting out, he finally had the moment of clarity where like this is good for me and he appreciated it and he kind of settled in. That's how I read the moment. And I thought it was interesting because like kind of what we're talking about. Dogs are funny. They they'll fight against things that are good for them, you know, like they don't want to go to the vet. They don't want to go to the groomers. They don't want their teeth cleaned. They don't want their nails trimmed. They'll fight against it in the beginning, but if we allow the dog their and this is going more philosophical now. There's a lot of people out there who say dogs deserve their agency. Well, does a dog deserve its agency to tell you he shouldn't be groomed, cleaned, and kept hygienic and healthy. Like, I don't For me, that's not a choice the dog gets to make because it's for the well-being of the dog, right? >> Yeah. And plus when you see what dogs don't know what's good for them, right? They just go on their like basic instincts and I like this so therefore it's good or I don't like that therefore it's bad. They don't understand what is

good and bad. So we have to on that we have to show them what's good and bad and then also show them that some things are just going to happen. And that's what I think most people they give up because the dog fights it >> and they think the dog is fighting it because they're uncomfortable. Most of the time the dog is only fighting it because they're not used to it. They've never had experience before. So they're just being a dog being like, I don't want to do this right now. But once you show them this is inevitable. This is going to happen. Then they kind of relax into it and they're like, "Okay, this is the procedure now. This is what we do." >> Well, imagine imagine this. Like you, you know, you know how there's those civilizations like on remote islands that have never met like first world anything. You know, these ancient like Amazonian tribes or island nations that have never been introduced to first world societies. Imagine taking someone off of the one of those civilizations or islands and then dropping them into like a a Swedish deep tissue massage where they're like laying down on the table and someone's like gnawing into them with their elbows. Like their first instinct is going to be like to jump up and run away. They they think they're being attacked, right? Like cuz that stuff is not pain or that stuff is not comfortable. It's it's painful. But it's only after you get through the pain that you realize the benefits of the pain and and it actually the pain brings the comfort later, right? It brings the relaxation. It takes the muscle knots. It makes you feel good. It brings the health benefits after the pain, right? That's why people you go to a sauna, you sit in a cold plunge. In the moment, it's stressful on the body. It hurts a little bit, you know, depending on like where you're at. But the benefits come afterwards. It's the same concept, right? >> Yeah. And Yeah. Like, and that's the thing, like I said, they don't know what is good or bad. They don't know what the benefits are, but we know because we're on a, you know, as far as intelligence goes, we're on a higher level than than dogs are. So we know what's good for them and we know that what they need to do and then it's our job to do it and not let them dictate what's going to happen or what's not going to happen. Right. >> Yeah. And the dogs that have been given like where where maybe they buck and bronco and you know kick back when their owners try to do something that's good for them. If the owner backs down, those are the dogs that become a handful to handle and usually end up bouncing around home to home to home. or if

you're a good sports or working dog handler, those are the dogs you want to go take cuz they've been civilized enough to where they know like how to live in the home with somebody, but they've been raised so poorly in a sense that they have all the they've almost been reinforced for their rowdy and, you know, just bull in a china shop behavior. And it makes them perfectly ready and suitable to jump into a sport training regimen or a working capacity, you know. >> Exactly. I mean, there are so many times that people I go to see people and they describe their dog, what their dog is doing, and I go, "Oh, that's my type of dog. I like that kind of dog that does that because they're a little pushy, right? They'll do stuff. They're mischievous. They'll grab stuff, you know, when they're not supposed to or they'll like they'll with no fear climb over things. And I'm like, well, that's that's a dog I'm looking for. >> Yeah. >> Uh instead of just they, you know, them looking at as a nuisance, I look at it as something that's good. >> It's an opportunity for you. >> Yeah. >> Instead of suppressing that, you I I want to channel it. >> Yeah. Which is interesting because like on this topic, you know, you mentioned earlier before we started recording the challenge people face when they go to pressure as a last resort or or using correction or punishment as a last resort at the very last minute. It's like think about stretching. Sometimes there are some stretches that are really painful, right? If you're trying to get like into your hip muscles and things like that and stretch those out, the some stretches can be really painful. But if you're injured and then you try to stretch to fix the injury, the the damage has been done and it's too late at that point. You you have to go to like surgical intervention at that point to be able to to remedy the situation, right? Whereas maybe had you have been properly stretching, warming yourself up, um doing like massage, treatment, therapy or you know whatever it is in advance that may have stayed the injury or prevented it alto together, right? But because you were aversive to the to the pressure or the lower level pressure of preparing yourself for an event, you're now missing out on that. Right. >> Correct. It's kind of a weird analogy, I know, but like and it's not really like apples to apples, but like when you're talking about dogs, like we use pressure to teach at a low level because we want the dog to know what to do that the same response at a low level should be the same response at a high level. >> Yeah. >> Right. We want them to fix the issue in a certain way. We want them to

understand how to solve the problem in a certain way. Whether the pressure is low or whether the pressure is high, we need them to understand that the the problem can be solved. You can work the problem. >> Correct. Yeah. And the way I think of it is I don't want to if I if I can help it, right? I don't want the dog I don't want to try to make the dog do something they don't want to do with pressure. I want to use pressure to have them do something that they already want to do and there's a reason that they not doing it in that moment, right? Um, that's the way I think of it. Like not don't make your dog do something it doesn't want to do by using pressure. teach them how to do something, have them like doing it, and that pressure is added while you're teaching so that it's a guidance rather than you have to like I'm going to make you do this, >> right? >> Because there's a difference between you have to do this and I'm going to make you do this. Um, and that's where the understanding of pressure is is is key. So that the dog realizes that this this pressure lets is communicating to me what's going to happen, you know, and that's why I want the pressure to lead to something good along with the behavior. Yeah. So you're already like because again in that you're beginning to shape their mental framework about how they view challenge like or pressure like what do I shut down when I feel pressure? No, that's not the end goal. I want you to solve the pressure, right? >> Yeah. >> And build that neural pathway. >> Correct. Um, but also that I mean that's where if if you don't add pressure in the learning part and a dog doesn't know what to do with it now you have to guess the what the amount of pressure is to use. If you're doing you know like pop pony as we say you have to guess how much pressure is enough and h and it's not too much right whereas if you add pressure during learning and then you raise it you will know how much is enough because you've gone through the levels right in that particular exercise and in that environment. Um, instead of trying to guess, okay, is level eight enough, level 9 enough, level 10 enough? Do you you know, you know where I'm coming from? Do you understand? >> Yeah. Yeah. I think people they they jump or they they delay the use of pressure because of stereotypes of pressure, right? They think, "Oh, I don't want to have to force my dog to do this." Um, or I can do it. The other the other one that's kind of a sneaky little bugger is I can do it differently, right? I can do it without pressure, right? And this is an interesting conversation because it it goes to the quadrant, right? So

you have there there are two pillars in the quadrant that one includes quadrants that will reinforce and strengthen behavior and then the other column in the quadrant have quadrants that will diminish behavior and ultimately extinguish behavior. Right? Um the problem with with this this type of thinking is that like oh I can do it another way. You can like let's just again so we're not super vague here. Like people that say I I don't want to use tools. I don't want to use pressure. I just want to use desire, motivation, and emotion. Like there's nothing wrong with that. And those are again to be clear, those are important and necessary components of good dog training because it balances the dog out, right? We do want good dog training. I want a dog who's both flashy and reflexively obedient, right? And the the problem is is like when someone says, "Oh, we can do it a different way." You can only do it a different way because they don't push their dogs past the limits of where their source of motivation is controlling their dog. So like forcefree people who say, "I'm only going to train with treats." um no tools. Well, they only have control over their dog at to the point that the dog is willing to be obedient for that piece of reinforcement, right? That food or the toy or whatever it is, right? But the moment the dog sees something else that extends beyond or or supersedes the level of motivation for the the stinky piece of food or kibble or toy that they've got, now they have no more control, right? And so what we're dealing with with these people is people that train for that emotion and stuff like that. They're training using what the dog wants, not what the dog needs. And needs and wants are important and they need to be balanced in the dog's life, but they will give you different outcomes. The want gives you the desire, the flash, the emotion, the the optics that everybody likes to see in a dog. the wagging tail, the ears up, the the happy mouth. The needs give you the the reliability like and needs come from something that needs to be resolved now and not later, right? I can play with a a dog can be patient and wait to play with their ball all day until their owner comes home from work, right? But a dog will a dog in pain or and it doesn't have to be pain because it's not always used painfully but like a dog who has this like sense of discomfort at whatever level they have an immediate need to resolve that in that moment. Right. And a need will always supersede a want in terms of motivation. >> Yeah. Right. >> Wants change. Needs don't change, but wants change. >> Correct. And they and they can be for

you can forego a want when you're presented with a need. Right. So that's why that's why forcefree training um positive only style training can only take you so far. And and which is why back to the initial like conversation that you and I were having is that that's why when you go to pressure as a last resort, it always fails because the dog wasn't prepared for that moment and they either become superstitious to maybe you stim the dog when they're chasing the cat and now they think the now the dog thinks that the cat is the cause of their pain and they try to kill the cat or they become more aggressive towards the cat. >> Yeah. Well, what what we talked about before and like the best example of that is well one when you add any kind of pressure the dog is going to try to figure out what to do with that pressure, you know, so you have to you shouldn't add pressure unless the only outcome is what you want to happen, right? Um, but the good example of that is when people have taught their dogs heel and sit and down and all different behaviors and then they come to a point where they ask the dog to sit and it doesn't and they give some kind of uh they add some kind of pressure to make the dog sit. And instead of sitting, because the dog has never felt that pressure before, instead of sitting, it goes into a heel or it goes into a down or it does something different than what they asked the dog to do. And that is the perfect example of the dog not understanding what pressure means and they were just offering the the highest value behavior that they know. Most likely that's been rewarded more than anything or that has been taught more more reps. They offer that because they don't understand the pressure and they're just offering what they know to try to turn it off. And then the second mistake that people make is they think that's disobedience, but it's not. It's just not clear communication. >> Yeah, I agree. Yeah, 100%. The thing like this is what kills me is because like you see this a lot and again I spend a lot of time in like sport circles and forums and so I hear this a lot and a lot of people are really trending on like play with their dog which again love that it's a great it's a great motivator but like play is a want like some people some there's some people use uh say that it's a need right um for a fully developed I'm not going to argue that it's not here or there. But take for example like say you have a you have someone who graduates a college. They go they get accepted into their desired profession and they get a really highpaying job out of it, right? Say you have a really amazing incredible salary that is like

you know like netting you lots of money more than more than you can do without the time. Just cuz you have a high motivation, like super high salary, something you want really like a high positive reinforcement, right? That job is still going to leverage pressure to make sure that you have specific outputs and perform correctly, right? I think pressure and and like wants or reinforcement go hand inand together because they address different things. Like using the same analogy like at work like you know I think the the needs pro produce better like driving a dog using a dog based like tapping into its need versus its want will give you the better op opportunity to create more technical behavior versus when you have you're driven by a want that salary you're more motivated But motivation doesn't create the concentration. And that's what you know we learn in silver school. There's there's these two levers, motivation and concentration. And in order to build and create technical behaviors with a dog where there's multiple steps or multiple chains in this behavior that need to be designed, you need a dog who's focused in order to do that. So, for example, like you give someone at a highpaying job a deadline, they're going to get better outcomes than if you say, "Hey, there's like a, you know, $5,000 bonus to someone who gives me the best PowerPoint presentation, right?" Versus like if you work against the deadline, you're a lot more focused. Yeah, you are a little bit more stressed, but that stress causes the attention to detail and motivates you to work harder, right? you're you're a lot more thorough in your work. Um, and it's the same thing with dogs. So, like using pressure is not a bad thing. And motivating a dog with needs instead of wants can give you more technically correct behaviors. >> I agree. Yeah. Big time. And then that's like you said too, the want is what creates that motivation for the dog and it will like talking about jack like going to like once and jackpots, right? um that I think we we spoke about it not on here but we spoke about it a little bit where the jackpot is what creates motivation for behavior but it doesn't necessarily make that rep that last rep the thing the dog understands to be the best. Right? The jackpot is there to create that great motivation so that the dog when it has a lot of motivation for something, it will do something better. >> Yeah. >> Right. >> Yeah. >> But when you if you only jackpot the dogs and you don't add any pressure, then you get this dog that's like it it goes to the border of not be able to think because the motivation is too high. And that's where you get the very

I don't know if you want to call it anxious, but the the dog that's that can't concentrate on anything else and which like you said, the other side of the motivation is concentration, right? The dog that can't concentrate on anything other than that one thing that you used to jackpot with. And that's the mo if the people that do the pubon and they they build that motivation to the point where now in order to get the concentration you have to add a lot more pressure >> right >> than you would if you added it while you were building. >> Yeah. I like you said something uh like just early on in this this uh conversation. You said wants can change and the the problem with that's absolutely right. And the the worst part about that is they change when you're not ready for them to change, >> right? >> You don't have you don't have your contingency plan. You don't have a backup high value motivation thing to solve the fact that your dog just stopped wanting what you're giving it or what you're leveraging to to get the behaviors you need, right? They the wants, you never know when they're going to change. Like a good trainer might Yes, they might be able to read the dog and say, "Oh, the dog is no longer hungry for my treats. I better stop the session before I run out of like ability to motivate my dog." Right? is is it that's exactly why training via a want quadrant and a want quadrant that I'm referring to is the reinforcement of positive reinforcement or the negative punishment where you're removing something they want or adding something they want right those things change and they can be a dog can forego wanting those things altogether in favor of solving a need in the moment right because needs are just the best I mean if you take the very simple example is you have a dog at home that is crazy for treats for example right at home they'll do anything for those treats but they're also reactive you take them into the environment and they see another dog that they're react that they react to and now those treats are not what they want they want to react to that dog Right. >> Right. So the the want or the motivation in that moment switched from barking from taking a treat to barking at a dog. And I mean there's other stuff involved in that. But it it pretty much, you know, simply that's what it it comes down to. And that's why in that moment they're not going to take the treat, which is just something they wanted, right? But if you change that food into a need, now there's a different type of training happening. Now there's a difference. Like do you want to bark that dog or do you need to take this food? Yeah. Yeah,

that's a good way to put it. And so that's the thing that like because you you've you've mentioned that you feel like there are gaps in the labels that have been used or assigned to describe certain behaviors aka the quadrant, right? Which is I think you're absolutely right and I think we're talking about where those gaps are because when people only stick to like, oh, I'm reinforcing my dog. Well, sometimes you're not reinforcing your dog because your dog has no has discontinued their desire for the thing that they're being reinforced with, right? And it's no longer strengthening that behavior. And the way you know whether you are or you are not is whether the dog feels it's a need or if it feels it's a want. Because needs don't change. Needs solve those those existential appetites, right? food, shelter, reproduction, safety. Those those four things, right, comprise the the basis of Maslo's pyramid of hierarchy of needs. Um, wants can change, wants can be delayed. So, I think that's that's where people need to start looking is like identifying in the dog. Is this a is this a dog that needs something or is this a dog that wants something? Because needs will always be used can always be called on to motivate a dog, right? Wants may or may not be successful at motivating dogs. And I think that's the point that that becomes really important for people to understand when they're talking about, you know, this. And that's why they don't want to go to pressure is because they they don't see a dog as like, oh, my dog will do it for a toy, right? My dog will sit for a toy. Okay. Well, that's fine. He'll sit right now in your boring room cuz that's the ball is like a hundred bucks to the dog in in a room with nothing else going on. But when there's other smells, there's cats, there's kids in a park, you know, like that ball now is not valued enough to motivate the dog to do what you want them to do. >> Yeah. >> So, you need to introduce a need to the dog and pair that with a behavior. And when that behavior turns off the the pressure, that need has reinforced the behavior. Now the behavior is the reward. >> Right on. >> Good. Good. >> I mean, I was there like when I got started in training that that was, you know, pressure tools that that was kind of the last those were considered the polishing the polishing tools that we put on at the very end of when we thought the dog was ready. But then, you know, I was like, man, I didn't have a dog that that was working with at all. Like, my training was so the first uh Shutzen club that I joined, which where is my training started with my very first dog, it was it was like, okay, teach the dog

the heel position basically. Uh, and then what you do is when you're healing in a straight line, you have a pinch on the dog and you turn and if the dog doesn't come with you, you just pop it with a pinch. That was that that was what was taught, right? The other thing was the long down. a long down. You back tie the dog and then you stand like in the IGP long down 30, you know, paces away or whatever. >> Yep. >> And then you have a line on the dog and if it gets up, you hang it. Basically, you pull it as hard as you can, >> string it out until it lies down again. So, it's like luckily my training changed from there. But it it was going to the topic they were talking about was my friend who had a very nice dog, the German Shepherd I told you about. It was that dog wanted to work and all you had to do was just show it what was the correct thing to do, but it was very driven and she was having a problem calling it out of the blind. Um, and that's where the trainer, the head trainer back then was just like, "Okay, just put a e-collar on the dog and if he doesn't call out of the blind, just zap him." Like, there was no guidance, there was no leash, there was no nothing to show the dog what to do, >> right? No previous like teaching at all what pressure means. And the dog was >> the dog was such a strong dog that it just barked through it >> and just stayed there. And she did that twice and then she was like, "No, I'm not doing this." >> Well, and not to mention going to use the tool that gives the least amount of directional feedback to the dog. >> Correct. But then she knowing the thing I know now and the way pressure works, what I realize now is that what she did was she actually strengthened the bark and hold because the pressure started while the dog was doing that and it stopped while the dog was continuing to do that. >> Right? >> So it just made it stronger. Right now, forget about calling your dog out of the blind. It's like, no, this is where I'm safe, >> right? >> So interesting. >> Yeah, we have come a long way from that. >> Yeah, thankfully. I mean, they say the sign I mean, I I agree with this to an extent, but I also disagree with it. Um, and that's my contrarian point for the day. But, uh, the the the phrase where they say the sign of real intelligence is one's ability to change their mind. I agree with that and I disagree with that. But like in this case, I agree with it because like the ways we were shown or introduced to dog training definitely didn't stick. And, you know, we evolved beyond that. >> And I think everyone typically finds out that's the case. >> Yeah. But what about if you're always right?

Can you change your mind if you're always right? >> Yeah. Yeah. That's that that's where it can be that's where it can be wrong, right? It's like change your mind. Yes, but I'm right so I don't need to. >> That's good. >> Yeah. It's interesting. So, this dog I've got, like he was kept on the property, started fence fighting, and the owners didn't know what to do. And they they they called me in and said, "Hey, look, like all this dog wants to do is bring you the ball and put it on your put it on your lap and he won't leave it. He won't not bring you the ball." And I said, "Well, then >> that's what they said." >> Yeah. They're like, "He wants you to throw it." I'm like, "Well, then stop throwing it for him." Right. like you con if you don't want him to put the ball in your lap, quit throwing it for the dog. Just like brush it off your lap, let it fall to the ground. And because by throwing it, you he puts it on your lap. He thinks you're the you're the ball launcher and you launch it. If he wants to load the machine to launch the ball, he's going to put it on your lap because that's what happens. You throw it off. I'm like, just stop throwing it off. Even better, just say finished and then don't throw it again. >> Yeah. Well, at this point >> after a while >> for that dog. Yeah. For that dog that would take a lot of he's because he's so addicted to the ball. Like this dog has stupid ball drive. It even kind of annoys me a little bit sometimes. >> But cool dog. >> People I've had people complain that the dog bothers them at the wrong times, right? like like they work from home and then the dog will start bothering them. >> Yeah. >> And he's like, "Yeah, while I'm working, the dog will bring its toy or whatever." And of course, I go, I already know the answer, but I go, "Well, what do you do?" She throw it a few times. It's like, "Well, the dog's learning that whenever it wants to play ball, it just has to bring you the or whatever toy with a toy. It just has to bring it to you and you'll play at that moment." >> Yeah. So it's funny because just like the the Maslo like from the top of the pyramid you got to bring him down and the the bottom you got to put them up. So this dog was kind of living in the top right like as far as the ball is concerned. And so I took the ball away like his first week here like no ball like he he kept looking for a ball. He kept trying he'd start picking things up to try to make them into a ball. Like he found some like like some of my kids like bubble bottles and things. He'd carry those around. I took those away. So, there's absolutely nothing for him to interact with. And then he had to

start interacting with me. And then he starts interacting with me. I was like, "Oh." And he did something that impressed me. So, I went and got the ball, right? And then I went back and the ball went away. And now he looks to impress me a lot more. And I'm just leveraging access to the ball for that. >> Nice. >> He's a fun dog. How's your pack doing? >> They're good. I've been doing uh I've been because of it's getting warmer. I've been putting them on the treadmill every day >> in the morning. >> But the problem with that is the good dogs now they want more and more of it because it usually leads to something else, right? So >> yeah. All right. Well, good stuff, man. That's that's fun. Um, thank you for tuning in for uh our 21st episode of of the Full Quadrant podcast. It's been fun. Uh, always good to chat with you, Mike. Always like hearing the insights that you provide >> and the stories that you you have some interesting stories about dogs and clients. It's fun to hear them. So, >> cool. Well, yeah, it was fun. We hit 21. that uh that was our original goal was to get at least 21. >> 21 job is done. >> Yeah. >> So, but we will have a 22. >> Sounds good. All right. Well, hey, thanks again everybody. Nice chatting with you. >> Oh, yeah. And if you guys like this, uh please subscribe. People forget to subscribe. Hit the like button. Subscribe. >> Uh and then share it if you can too. um just to get more people out there that you know that can listen to this and then let us know how it is. Do you like it? Do you not like it? Do you think we're stupid? I was just going to say on on the same token, if you don't like it, still subscribe so that you get notified when we put a new podcast episode out so you can tell us you don't like it. Right. Like >> that's right. Exactly. >> You can still subscribe whether you like it or not. >> Yeah. Just subscribe and don't even listen and just say you don't like it after it comes out. >> Tell me, I hate this. >> Amazing. Perfect. All right. Well, that was great. We'll talk soon. >> All right, man. >> Okay. Talk to you later. All right. See you. Bye. Bye.