E426: 카렌 디즈 및 소피 류(Karen Deeds and Dr. Sophie Liu) - 부정적 강화에 대한 현실적 시각

way of understanding dog cognition. Dog cognition research has really exploded in the last like 10, 15 years. And social mimicry is one of those as well as, um, just, uh, other ways of learning that are not necessarily goal oriented. So there was a really cool paper that showed that dogs will mimic other dogs or people doing these like ridiculous maneuvers, even though they're not directly goal oriented, they just do it because they've observed another being that they have a social attachment to doing it. So yeah, all of that is part of what makes learning learning. Super interesting. Um, and how are we talking about negative reinforcement in all of this? Well, like I said, I think negative reinforcement falls into one of the four quadrants. Of, uh, behaviorism, uh, of learning through the operant conditioning. And, you know, Dr. Lou knows the, the terms a heck of a lot better than I do. Uh, she's much more well-educated. I just, I just use it. Uh, and, uh, negative reinforcement gets a, gets a really bad rap. Number, number one is negative. The term itself implies something horrible and it's not because negative doesn't mean bad. It means subtraction. It's a mathematical term. So that's negative. And of course, reinforcement is anything that increases a behavior. So when we put those two terms together, negative and reinforcement, we're basically taking something away to increase a behavior. Exactly. That's what we're trying to do. Yep. Yeah. So I would always tell my students that positive and negative are literally just like Karen said, they're mathematical. You're adding or you're removing. And so if you have to remove something to increase a behavior, which is what negative reinforcement is, it kind of is implied in the definition that it's the removal of something that's probably aversive. It's not appetitive. So that's basically what it means. Removal of something to increase a behavior. And by definition, it's probably a little bit aversive. So you mentioned in there, um, or Karen, I guess, mentioned in there that, you know, because it's got the word negative right there, we, it can create kind of some big feelings in the positive training world. And, um, I think it's worth maybe digging into for a minute, just kind of, why is it important for us to be talking about it? Because I think we've ignored it for too long. We're going, oh my God. Because it's, it's really, it's a natural way of, of learning. It's a natural way of communicating. Um, and you know, it's not like I'm going to apply something aversive.

That's going to be so detrimental that the dog, um, or horse for that matter, uh, because negative reinforcement is used in the horse world a lot, which of course is also very controversial. Um, but, um, you know, in the dog world, it's, it's a very normal part of day-to-day life in our life. It's a very normal part of how we live. And I think it can be, it can create just another form of communication. That's the way I teach my, my collar and leash pressure is I don't start out with, you know, taking away, they, they learn to take away the pressure. I try to teach them what to do first instead. So even though I am going to be using negative reinforcement, I have to teach the dogs how to respond to the aversive, which is going to be pressure. It's just collar pressure or leash pressure. And so I want to show them, okay, you know, when you feel this, do this instead. And so it almost becomes, I create a tactile cue. It's no different than if you're walking along and you're on your cell phone and you're about to walk across the street and somebody beside you grabs your arm and pulls you away from walking in front of the car. Um, you know, they may have been saying, Hey, Hey, Karen, Hey, Karen, don't, don't stop, stop, stop, stop, don't, don't go. Um, and yet you don't hear them because you have your earbuds in. So they reach out and they grab you and they guide you somewhere. Well, that's a tactile cue. That's just another form of communication. And that's kind of how I, I take a look at, uh, collar and leash pressure is it just becomes a tactile cue. It's like grabbing them by, um, and I hate to even use the word grab, uh, but applying pressure and they go, Oh yeah, I feel that I should come with that. And that's how I try to teach it first and foremost. Yeah. My perspective is that these things are inevitable in our dogs' lives, right? We live in societies where dogs legally have to be kept on leash. Like that's just a plain fact of the matter. I'm fortunate to be in an area where we have a lot of off leash places, but I've been traveling in a lot of places where dogs are on leash all the time because it's legally required everywhere. And so these are just inevitabilities of living in our society. The other inevitability of it, which is why my talk is going to be about vet stuff is that vet stuff is really unpleasant. It's for the most part, you know, handling, pinching, poking, prodding, needle pokes, vena punctures, like they're really unpleasant. And the issue is that if we don't accept that these are inevitabilities of life and we don't

teach the dogs how they can control it, how they can make it more tolerable, how we can reduce how much pressure we need to use is that more often I see animals panicking. And then when they learn that they panic and they flail, now we have this like downward spiral. And it's happened to some dogs close to me where their owners didn't teach them how to understand what pressure means and not as a training tool. I don't mean using it as a training tool per se, but like just the inevitability of life that sometimes you have to be picked up. And when they didn't do that, and then the dog was introduced to it for the first time and panicked, now we have a massive issue. So for me, it's like there are certain things in life where like you go in your car and it dings every time until you put on your seatbelt. There are many times in your life where positive reinforcement is not possible, like potentially in a vet hospital for whatever reason. Then all you have is teach your dog how to cope with that inevitable pressure through negative reinforcement or what else? Like there is no what else. It's full chemical sedation at that point, right? So that's what I really want to emphasize to people is like, I don't like to use it as a learning tool per se, if I'm trying to teach, you know, for example, healing, but it's kind of inevitable in our daily lives. And that's the way I approach it because, you know, this healing is totally different. In all honesty, I think teaching focus heal is probably easier than teaching loose leash walking because there's more specific criteria. And like you said, it's inevitable. My dogs are, you know, I'm going to be out walking and, you know, looking around and the dogs are too. And eventually, you know, an odor might hit them and they start taking off and they go and they hit the end of the leash. Well, a lot of dogs will dig in and I'm sure probably mine will too. But at some point in time, they're going to go, oh yeah, this isn't going to work. Uh, but I know what to do now because I've been taught when there's pressure here to go with that pressure. And, um, so it's not this, this tug of war kind of sort of thing. It's information for them that they've learned that, okay, I know how to release this pressure. And, um, and sometimes it's just stopping. I mean, Dr. Lou would probably love it is when you put your hands on a dog, but they just kind of went, oh, I give. Right. That would be lovely. That we have stillness, but not freezing. Yes. Fear. Yes, absolutely. And I remember many, many years ago, I remember this little thing we did with puppies in puppy

class called gentling. I don't know if you remember it. It was basically pick up your little puppy and if it squirmed and squirmed and squirmed, as long as it wasn't freaking out, but it was wiggly and eventually went and you'd let it down. Well, that was absolutely negative reinforcement. If you're still, I'll let you down. And we don't do that anymore. I haven't seen anybody do gentling on a puppy or in a puppy class for years. And part of that is because it can go wrong really fast. Yes, exactly. Yes. Yeah. We're on the same wavelength. The issue is that if you don't teach it well and that people aren't sensitive to pressure, you end up flooding the puppy and you end up traumatizing it. So that's why it is so important for us to talk about rather than ignoring it and pretending this doesn't exist. Because I think the number one issue with, for example, vet stress is dogs have learned to panic because they haven't been taught. And cooperative care takes a long time and it takes a full vet team. And in the meantime, between now and two years from now, your dog needs vaccinations. They need their blood drawn. They need to be given a heartworm test. And so that's why they panic. And we just have worse and worse and worse vet visits. Yeah. Because I work at the vet clinic too. And I see that too. Yeah. Yeah. So talk to me a little more about how you, when and how kind of we're strategically using negative reinforcement here and how we kind of try to avoid that fallout. Well, for me, because I'm doing just leash, just leash pressure. I'm going to teach basically just, I'm going to counter condition it a little bit. Here's pressure. Here's a cookie, pressure, cookie, pressure, cookie, pressure, cookie. So it's basically, I'm desensitizing the pressure and they're not even moving. They're just feeling the pressure and something good happens. And then it's a little bit more than that. And then I'm going to say, okay, when there's pressure, I'm going to maybe use a marker and I'm going to have you come with the pressure to get the cookie. So I'm already teaching them that this pressure means click, come get a cookie, or this pressure means toss, go chase a cookie. And you're going to chase the cookie in the direction of the, of releasing the pressure. And so what, to me, what starts to happen is pressure becomes a, I just create a cue transfer. Pressure means, oh, you're about ready to click. So I'm going to turn around and look at you. And now then you're going to click and I'm going to get a cookie. So it just becomes, so I'm actually using positive reinforcement to teach negative reinforcement.

Is that, I mean, that's kind of where it starts is I'm doing some counter conditioning. First desensitization and counter conditioning. And then I'm teaching the dogs what to do when there is pressure. And there's always going to be that moment where they, you know, they're over aroused, they're frustrated, they're angry, whatever. And they hit the end of the leash and they dig in. And I just, I just wait and kind of go, remember, remember the, the way to get out of this is up to you. And then they go, okay. And they come back and they go, yeah, that, that works. So they're learning how to apply or release the pressure themselves after I've showed them how to release the pressure. And that's, that's what I teach with loose leash walking. And it's up to the individual. I actually teach the dogs when they hit the end of the leash to circle back to me. Some people will just teach free, just stop, just a woe. I actually teach the dogs that when they hit the end of the leash, that their dog is going to reorient back to me or turn around. Uh, so I go through and I teach them how to turn around when there's pressure, there's pressure on the right side of their head or their, their body. They turn right. If there's left, it's left, they turned left. So it's kind of like reigning in a horse, you know, uh, it's, it's kind of what it's like, but I show them how to do that before, um, you know, with positive reinforcement before they actually have to kind of, I don't want to say figure it out themselves. Cause I've already given them the answer, but they've gone, okay. I, Oh yeah. I remember this. That pressure means I can get away from the pressure if I just go that direction. So that's how I'm using it in my webinar. I like that. I, um, you have split it way more in detail than I have as you're explaining how to train it. I was like, Ooh, I skipped step one through five, but that's okay. That's okay. We end up where we end up. Um, we do. So that's good. That's excellent. I'm so glad you go first, Karen, and you split that in five different steps more than I did. I think it's four, but okay. I skipped the whole beginning. Um, so, but that's good. So for me, what I go over is like a really great story is my dog's litter mate. She lives close to us. So we get to see her often. And one day she had grown into an adolescent and they were like, we can't pick her up. And I was like, what are you talking about? You can't pick this dog up. Like we pick these puppies up all the time. What's going on here? And she was a perfect example of a dog who probably needed a little bit of learning how

to cope with handling and pressure early. And she did not. And now she was like a 60 pound Doberman who you could not pick up. If you picked her up, she would flail. And I was like, this is just dangerous. This is dangerous for everyone. If she's ever in an emergency, this is so dangerous. And so we dogs had her for, um, a week or two and I had to, I had to teach her how to cope with pressure, a little bit of that negative reinforcement, but exactly to your point, Karen, as I was going through videos and trying to find which ones to put in the webinar, I was like, it just looks like positive reinforcement to the average observer. But that's the point. The point is that we are not advocating for use of like really intense collar pressure, leash pressure, stim to create behavior that we use in our like obedience training. What we're saying is that dogs have to learn how to cope with just that little inevitability of like, you're going to be on a leash or I'm going to have to pick you up. But we do it in such a way where you said it really well, you give them the answer already. So they already have the answer through positive reinforcement. Then we're kind of basically desensitizing counter conditioning them to pressure, but teaching them that certain things are going to happen, like picking you up, pinching your skin, poking you with a needle. And this is how it's controllable and tolerable. And we won't push you above your threshold, but we're giving you the tools to learn how to get through this with as least like toxicity as possible. So I teach, I teach it similarly to Karen, but I guess I skip a lot of steps. That's funny. What about dogs? You mentioned kind of that freeze or that flail or whatever. How do you handle that in the moment? I mean, if a dog freezes or they're flailing crazy or they're escalating. I mean, sometimes we're talking about, you know, we're talking about creatures with teeth. Um, when, with even a small amount of pressure restraint, I mean, what, what do we do then? You got to break it down. And Karen's probably better at breaking it down than I am. Um, but so for example, with the litter mate, what I did was I teach, I kind of combine. So I do a little bit of a start button behavior where she learned the first step was to get onto the platform. And then once she's on her platform, I give her a signal that's going to indicate we're going to do a little bit of handling and maybe it looks nothing at all like a hug, but it's a little bit of handling, a little bit of exposure, yes, speed.

And then just your classical desensitization, counter conditioning, positive reinforcement with that start button. So she could always leave or I toss a reset cookie so that I get her buy-in and then we escalate from there. And if you do it cleanly, like anyone who's shaped or trained a dog before, if you do it cleanly, it can go really, really smoothly, really quickly. So that's how I did it for hugging. I have another video with a dog who freaked out, um, as a board and train for nail trims for him. I did apply a little bit more pressure and we can talk about in the webinar, in the Q and a, that is one of those situations where it's so easy to go over threshold. And I don't think I would recommend it as a, as like a try this at home. I think that's definitely more of a case where it's like, you gotta be working with a professional who knows what they're doing. But I did do a little bit of maybe what Karen described in gentling, which is where I applied just enough to what I felt that he could handle well. And he did struggle a little bit, but as soon as he just gave me a little bit of stillness, then I marked and fed and released. So don't try that at home unless you're working with a professional. Right. And you know, you're, you're talking about what happens in the moment. Well, believe me, I, in fact, I just had this the other day. And I've got a little dog here. And in fact, it's funny. I mean, I have so many videos of leash pressure because it's something I've been teaching for, I don't know, 10 years. So, and we've used to do a lot of boarding trains. Well, I have a boarding train here right now. And he's a little Frenchie Boston terrier mix. He's a Frenchton and he's a jerk. He's not nice. He will bite other dogs. And, and I found out in the beginning when he hit the end of the leash, he would actually redirect on me. Um, so in, in the beginning and in a granddad, he was trained with not so positive reinforcement. So he was trained with a, on a prong collar. So, um, initially not by me, but before I got him. Um, and so when he hit the end of the leash, his immediate response was either to go after what was in front of him or turn around and get me. And so I, you know, I did a little bit of counter conditioning with just a flat collar, uh, which you'll see in the videos. Um, and then I did put him in a harness. Um, but that's, that's where we started with him. And, um, so much easier in the harness because it didn't have such negative connotations already. Uh, he was very, very almost frantic in the beginning when I started with collar pressure,

uh, because I'm sure he's anticipating, you know, more pain than he was getting, uh, which is how he was taught initially. And so I did go ahead and do some counter conditioning with a collar, but ultimately, because I know around the house, he's not going to be wearing a harness for the most part. And, uh, and he has issues at home with one of the members of the household who, uh, is a young child with autism. So that's not going to be fun. Um, but, uh, you know, for him in the moment, I know that's what was happening with him. And we've come a long way from that. So now that when he gets the leash, uh, the end of the leash, he might dig in for a second and then he goes, Oh yeah, I remember. And he comes back. Um, so, you know, that's how I've taken it with him. Um, because I do know that leash pressure. I mean, we use pressure like that. Just look at any fly ball tournament, right? Look at bike sports for God's sakes. What are we doing? We're jacking them up by holding them back and revving them up and hold them back and revving them up. And then we hold them back and we let them explode. And that's using negative reinforcement. Is it not? Um, so, you know, dogs kind of dig it. It can be kind of, kind of fun, uh, especially when you want to be nasty, like some dogs want to be, uh, and biting is fun. Cause I actually think this little guy thinks biting is real fun. It's real fun. Well, I think big high for him. Yeah. You know, I think the, it's just also to your point, it's actually a reactivity prevention tool because I taught my youngest dog how to respond to collar pressure so that when she feels that she turns towards me. And there have been so many times going through adolescence where a dog has come by or it's a really tricky situation. And I'm like, you're not reactive dot, dot, dot yet. And thank God that she understood how to cope with that pressure because there's a lot of times where I had just had to like, we're leaving. And I had to just quickly get them out of there. And there was a lot of leash pressure, but she was like, oh, okay, no big deal. Rather than being like, and now I got to fight the other dog. Right. So I think it's such a valuable reactivity prevention concept too. Well, good. Cause I put that in there. Awesome. We're on the same. Woo. And the way this all started is, uh, Sophie and I did a reactive dog camp at the ranch in June and we went out to dinner pretty much every night afterwards. And we talked about all of this and we came up with the idea then is we need to really talk about it and not hide from it.

And so this was, you know, this was inspired, uh, back in June and here it is September and we're, we're, we're finally getting a chance to do it. But, uh, but it's, you know, we had to be very careful in choosing our words. In fact, we weren't even, we weren't even allowed to use the words negative reinforcement in our webinar titles because it can be controversial. Uh, and we're trying to take that mystery out of it, I think is what we're trying to do more than anything. And just to let people know that it is a, it's not a primary way of training or teaching, but it is something that's inevitable in a dog's life or a person's life for that matter. Um, and if we can teach some coping skills surrounding it, everybody's going to be benefit from that. All right. So for those dogs who already kind of have these negative experiences with some of this stuff, um, we're kind of digging ourselves out of a hole, right? So how do we rebuild their confidence? How do we get back to a good place where we can, you know, make progress on these things? Karen. Slow. Yes. Slow. I think Karen explained it really well. It's a lot of splitting and you know, that's what makes some great trainers so great. Like Karen is that you think of the splits even before I have considered it right. That you would just do a little bit of pressure and food. I skip five different steps and I'm treating my dog like a horse. I'm like a little bit of pressure, move in. Yes, speed. Um, so I think splitting, knowing how to split in, in what way is the best, is the best approach. And then also for my little dog who had flailing with a nail trims, he was actually, he's the sweetest thing. He's like this cute little pity loves people, loves dogs, not super high arousal. So he's just a sweet dog, but he had learned to flail and panic and they could not get a heartworm test on this dog. They could not vaccinate him. They could not trim his nails. And I was like, this is crazy. He's a sweet, lovely little dog. And so, um, I probably skipped a couple of steps with him too, but with, with thoughtful application of pressure and release of negative reinforcement and starting at like knowing your dog's threshold and really knowing it and going and staying below, I think is the key. So I definitely don't think that negative, negative reinforcement is one of those concepts that people can just like take out of the bag and run with it. Um, a really good example is that I was mentored for a very long time by the late Dr. Sophia Yin who did a lot of training videos and her kind of like one of her final tasks for her

students was like, and if you are great at positive reinforcement, you can train the chickens. I've seen your timing. You know how to look for threshold. You know how to desensitize. You know how to counter condition. If after all of that, then you could apply the gentle leader to a dog and learn how to use negative reinforcement. Right? So I think it is a really valuable concept. I think it works really well when we split it really finely and combine it very closely with positive reinforcement. But I do think it's one of those things that we acknowledge because it does include the presence of an aversive stimulus, that it's something that you have to do very carefully. And so I think if you find yourself digging yourself out of a hole and you don't know how to put the dirt back, then find someone who like is, you know, Karen or part of FDSA who that's their jam. They enjoy it and work through it slowly with them because it's true to the casual observer. I think good use of negative reinforcement looks exactly just like shaping because that's essentially what we're doing. Because that's really what it looks like. And it's so funny because the videos, you try to split out, okay, this is when I'm actually marking the pressure and then I'm trying to mark a little bit of movement. And it all gets hodgepodge together because it starts to flow so easily. It was really hard to kind of parse out the videos of, okay, so now I'm on like step one of counter conditioning. And now I'm on step two of marking and moving. And now I'm on moving and marking and, and it's like, okay, but they're all kind of, it happens so fast. And, but again, I'm not saying that my dogs don't pull on a leash. I'm saying that when they hit the end of the leash, I don't fall down. Well, for the most part lately, I don't know. But even my, and really and truly the one that's the best at it is the one that I had from a puppy and you'll see videos of him because he's fricking adorable as a puppy doing leash pressure and collar pressure. And you can see him as a baby puppy. He kind of goes, I don't want to move. Right. And then he goes, but I will. And he moves and then he gets a click of a cookie. And pretty soon he's going, I love moving. This is so much fun. And I am just like literally not dragging him, but I'm guiding him left to right with his collar. And he's just like the happiest little guy ever. And so he's, and he's a big dog. He's like 75 pounds. And so when he hits the end of the leash, he kind of goes, oh yeah, I don't do that. And I have not trained this dog for four years.

I mean, I trained him as a puppy and did a little bit of try ball with him, with, with Melissa. And really and truly I've done nothing with this dog since then. And you'll see, I think he's got some adult videos in the webinar as well. And his response to leash pressure is, is pretty good, but a big part of this too. And, and Sophie, you hit on this was knowing your dog and also having a relationship. I think a relationship is a big part of this too. I could get away with murder and granted he's a Labrador. I could get away with murder with him. Right. And he'd be, he'd forgive me. The border collie who grew up hating people. And like, if I grabbed his collar, I'd get bit when I first got him kind of sort of dog. And we still bargain. I mean, I don't grab his collar. I ask him if I can grab his collar. I put that on cue. Gotcha. I'm going to grab your collar now. And if I say gotcha and he goes the other direction, I go, I hear you. Because I don't want to ruin what fragile relationship we already have. And, um, so for him, very, very different, very different. I don't have, and I don't think I will ever have the relationship and the, the bit ability that I have in my Labrador because my Labrador just loves me unconditionally. And my border collie, it's very transactional, very transactional. So his, I have to work on leash pressure frequently. I have to work on that collar grab frequently. The Lab, haven't done it for years. You know, and as you explained that, I think the other thing that, um, is so important is this. So the difference that I'm hearing is that border collie, and I may or may not be right. You tell me, but it sounds like he has more skepticism and suspicion. And these dogs that we see in the vet clinic, when they have a lot of skepticism, suspicion, like maybe they're anxious dogs. So they have this negative cognitive bias. They are very prone to nasty surprises because the world around them is just not quite as optimistic. And so when things happen, it's like a nasty surprise. And that's why we have a lot of dogs come into the clinic and they're like, okay, I'm doing okay. I'm kind of hanging in there. You get some treats. All right, I'm doing okay. And then we give them a nasty surprise of a vaccination or repoke them or repinch them. And then they flail. And then they're like, oh, heck no. I know what this place is. I hate you all. I'm going to freak out the minute I'm in the parking lot. You open the door, you look at me, and then it just escalates and escalates and escalates. So, you know, as part of the digging yourself out of the hole is we have to de-surprise the

whole situation. So like Karen saying, gotcha before she can grab that, that element of telling the dog, hey, this is going to happen, but I've taught you how to deal with this and how to cope with this. And there's a good outcome for you also at the end of this through positive reinforcement that allows us to avoid these really nasty surprises, which often happens. Like it's kind of inevitable in a vet clinic setting unless you've put in that work to teach them what it's going to mean. You know, it's going to be cute, et cetera, et cetera. So I think that's a really important element too is like how do we remove these nasty surprises from their lives? That's awesome. I'm going to go back and add that because I hadn't recorded my webinar yet until after we had this little conversation and now I'm going to go back in and I had, I had on purpose left out the gotcha part as part of it because I don't do it on every dog. I, I actually have a lovely one on the Labrador, but I use it for directional, dude, I want you on my left or I want you on my right. And you know, whichever hand, when I extend my hand, that's the direction he comes because it was very beneficial for tribal. Um, and, but I do it very differently for, for different reasons with the, the border collie mix, uh, because he is very skeptical. Oh, that is, that is the perfect word. And so, yeah, I'm going to go back and put that in there before I record. Thank you. You're welcome. I'm so glad I could be helpful. So I think you guys were getting at something there. Um, and I think it was right where my next question was going to go anyway. So, uh, maybe you've already kind of said, you want to say here, but how do we think about, you know, as positive trainers, keeping emotional safety of our learner, you know, front and foremost, as we're doing some of this stuff, how do you measure and kind of protect that emotional safety, you know, while we're looking at stuff? I actually, it's funny. I observed the body language and, and I'm going to go back to my border collie because, you know, like when I would grab his collar or even in the beginning, I couldn't grab his collar. So I actually had to put leash pressure. I think he drug a lot, uh, a drag line for a couple of months because I couldn't grab him by the collar for months. Um, and so I started with the pressure on, on the drag line and, you know, there would be pressure. His ears would go back. I'd get the closed mouth and there would just be a little bit of pressure. But then all of a sudden he's like, his ears would come up and I'd get the happy face and then I'd mark and feed that.

So I actually started rewarding emotion. God, does, can you, can you do that? I don't know. Maybe, maybe you can. I started just waiting for him to have better feelings about the pressure versus just responding to the pressure. And so you can actually see it in one of the videos I have where I'm actually using his leash as a reinforcer. Well, long before I had toy play on cue, uh, he would tug on his leash. So I took advantage of that and I would apply pressure on the leash and it was a big fuzzy leash and, uh, would apply pressure on that. And you could kind of see him go, I don't like this, but then his ears would come up and he'd go, but you're going to let me bite the leash, aren't you? And I, you know, strike and he got to bite the leash. And so I started waiting for the emotion. So, and it started happening faster and faster and faster because now basically the pressure became a cue for biting the leash or playing tug. And so that was, became anticipatory of, uh, the biting of the leash became, was anticipated. And so he started to get the emotions associated with that. And it, it just kind of, it transitioned into, I don't like it to, Oh my God, I love it. So, and I think it's, you have to be very aware of that. And I'm really looking for not only is the dog responding, but are they responding like, yes, I know what to do. So to me, it's, it's, it's really observing the dog in front of you and knowing how they're feeling, uh, by observing their body language and knowing the dog, you know, what does your dog look like when they're happy? Uh, you look at my Labrador and he's happy all the time. Most of the time, the border collie, not at all. Yeah. Not at all. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is so important, especially when we talk about negative reinforcement, because like this is a quadrant that is risky. There is definitely that risk of you apply too much pressure. The dog doesn't know how to cope. And now we have like internal panic, which may then quickly escalate to external panic. And so I think to protect the welfare, you do have to split it really, really finely. And essentially we're shaping tolerance to this. So like already, I hope those two words put people in the mindset of, we have to start super, super, super small. And we're essentially desensitizing. We're counter conditioning. We're shaping it. And yeah, at the end of the day, I think all we really do have is their body language, but also a kind of heightened awareness to their emotional state. And, you know, I have found that the sensitivity to that does kind of rely on the practitioner.

And I think some people are very, very good at it. And I would recommend, you know, utilizing the expertise of people like that if you want to do it with your own dog and if you're new. Because there is a little bit more risk whenever we're talking about the presence of an aversive in the process of learning. So I, like for my board and train who had the freak out experience with nail trims, I had known him at some point. You know, I think he had been with me for about a week or two at that point. So I felt like I knew him a little bit more. And then I was like, okay, if we can get him to be accepting of handling and nail trims, this is like huge cherry on top. There's no pressure otherwise. But, you know, after two weeks of knowing him, I was like, I think we can do this. And so he also learned like a kind of cooperative care start button behavior, which was I cued him onto the chair. So it became like the nail trim chair. And from there, if he chose to stay there, take my treats, then I could apply just a little bit. And you're not just going for stillness. You're going for, you know, as Karen said, like does the body relax? Do they look like they're like, okay, not so bad, right? And then if you see all of that, then that's where you stop. So it's, you know, I know Amy Cook started a conversation about thresholds in dogs. And I think it kind of goes back to that. It goes back to really understanding the dog in front of you and what is their genuine emotional threshold. And if we have issues with that as a pet owner, if we can't really define it or understand where that is for your own dog, then there's plenty of great people at FDSA to help you. All right. So kind of to give to the heart of things, you've mentioned a couple of times throughout the podcast, these webinars. So next week you guys are doing back-to-back webinars on some of this stuff. Can you share a little more about the upcoming webinars? Maybe who might be interested in joining us for them? Well, mine is loose leash walking and collar pressure and loose leash walking. And that's, what is it? September 18th. I'm the early spot. And I'm going to talk about all of that splitting out and how to apply different reinforcement strategies, you know, whether it's food or toys or play. Actually, Labrador, all I have to do is smile and tell him he's a good dog and he's freaking happy. Even using pre-Mac as a reinforcer. So that's some of the stuff that I talk about. But I'm doing specifically collar pressure, leash pressure, and a little bit of loose leash walking and how that does tie into loose leash walking.

Because it's the concept of negative reinforcement where I do the pressure. They move with the pressure. They get reinforced by either being able to go sniff or even go back and move forward. So that's what I'm doing is just the collar pressure, leash pressure, where it kind of applies into loose leash walking. However, I think as a concept in general, having a dog that learns to work through that pressure. And I'm going to use our little shih tzu as an example. Because she was in my, I did a lot of stuff with her with my confidence class. She's not a very confident dog. And she definitely did not like me handling her. And it got to the point that I could literally restrain her and send her to a cookie. And she was so excited for me to hold her back and almost push her backwards because it would propel her to go get the cookie that I threw. And so she learned. And what I have seen just as a side effect is her confidence just in understanding that little bit of pressure was very helpful. With the little Frenchton that you're going to see lots of videos of. His confidence, he can now actually come out into my living room and not completely freak out when my blind and deaf little minpin is laying on his bed. Because before he was wanting to attack him. And of course, my little dog didn't even know he was there. But I think he's been able to realize that he doesn't have to be so worried about things that are going to hurt him. I.e. the prong collar or the slip lead whatever that he was trained with previously. And I do a lot of work with him still on a flat collar because I know that's how they're going to manage him in their home when he goes back. Um, so I have to continue to work with that. Now, outside we use the harness. But, so I'm really focusing on the collar pressure and how pressure in and of itself. Uh, and teaching the dog to handle that pressure. It helps them to adapt. It, it builds their confidence. Um, and there are sometimes like Dr. Lou was saying is sometimes cookies aren't, aren't going to work. You know, there are some times when your, your, your learner is not in an emotional state that they cannot learn through positive reinforcement. Yes. Like in a vet hospital. Yeah. Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yep. So I'm going to segue from Karen who did a brilliant job splitting it and explaining the concept. And then I'm going to apply it to vet visits because, uh, you know, I can't think of a single dog truly who really, really, truly enjoys all aspects of a vet clinic experience. I have a dog who's super, super, super social, loves people.

But even now, because of the things that have happened behind the scenes in a vet clinic, she just, it's stressful. But if I can give them tools to learn that they can tolerate handling, that poking will happen, but that, that poking experience won't break down all of the handling and low stress restraint that you've taught the dog previously. Um, that it won't break that all down. Then you can maintain a pretty decent, happy dog who understands that sometimes this has to happen. Sometimes there won't be cookies, um, but that it won't cause panic and that it will preserve everything you've put into your dog up until that point. So I also do a collar grab and I show how you can use the collar grab in a vet setting and how that directly helps the dog understand like what we are doing here and that what we are doing is a little bit necessary, kind of inevitable, but how to make that less toxic for them. So we're going to kind of detox vet visits by teaching them low stress restraint, as well as this concept of handling pressure and that it's inevitable, but we're going to make it least toxic for you. I'm just going to throw in there. Um, so my, my shepherd before she passed, she was absolutely terrified of vet visits. And so it becomes actually impactful for the ability. I mean, she would just freeze and tighten her entire body, but you can't correctly palpate their abdomen. You can't correctly check their breathing or their heart rate. If they're that, like, this is so important from that perspective as well. Just being able to ensure that they actually can get an accurate health measure of where they're at. Right. Totally. Totally. And it all starts with negative reinforcement as a concept. Cause I, I truly don't think that you could teach everything. Well, if you don't also teach the dog, the concept of what pressure means there's some of it's going to be inevitable. We're going to help you through it. We're not going to try to push you above your threshold, but you got to learn like call or grab in a vet hospital, how to tolerate handling, how to tolerate poking. And if we can't get to cooperative care, cause that is really, it's hard. It's hard. I have one out of three dogs that can do fully cooperative care, maybe one and a half. And it's hard. And there's going to be lots of times in a vet setting where it's just not possible. So what do we do instead? Like we can't let perfect be the enemy of good. So, uh, I know that you guys are pretty intentional with having Karen's first and then Sophie's second.

So why is it important to have the least pressure piece before we dive into the veterinary handling and talk about low stress restraint? They need to learn it as a concept. I really think we need to learn it as a concept. And I also touch on call or grab, but I did not teach it in my webinar as thoroughly as Karen. So I recommend. So that's perfect. Yeah. Let's do both. Right. Yep. Yep. Awesome. All right. Any final thoughts or key points that you guys want to leave listeners with? No, this is going to be fun. And the other thing is we're each going to be on the Q and a for each one. So like when I do my webinar, Dr. Lou is going to be on my Q and a as well. So, right. This is the first time for me, but I love it. Okay. It's the first time for me to do it. Give me the links. Just give me the links. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And then of course in the evening, then for hers and I'm going to be on. So, you know, and, and part of it, the reason I asked Dr. Lou to do that for me is because I have to feel, I feel a little bit more inadequate to answer some of the really, uh, down and dirty technical, uh, questions about the, the language, the lingo. And I think Sophie's much more adept at doing, doing that. Like I say, I, I know it and do it, but when it becomes into the discriminative stimulus and this and the, that and the, all this, I'm like, yo, honey, you know, I studied that years ago, but it's been a long time. And I just, I don't think it's that. I just think it's that this is a, this is a hard topic for people like us in the positive reinforcement world to talk about without them being like, Oh, well, are you condoning the use of dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. And it's so it's a hard topic and I'm glad to be your emotional support human. So perfect. Thank you. Let's do it. It's exactly what I needed. Awesome. Great. All right. Well, thank you both so much for coming on the podcast. I'm looking forward to the webinars. Thank you. Yep. Good stuff. And thanks to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week. Don't miss it. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice to have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone. As soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fendi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Today's show is brought to you by the Fendi Dogo. You