E367: 줄리 사이몬스(Julie Symons) - "하나뿐인 하이드와 노즈워크에서 명확성 만들기"

And you do it a few different reps. Maybe you might have to step off initially to help your dog. But then after a while, the dog, like, oh, every box, I'm getting some reinforcement. You know, and then I'll start adding some space between the hot boxes and put cold ones in there. So that really teaches them to cast off to find more hides. And that's usually the reason why dogs, not only do they go back to found hides, we'll get into that later, but they'll get sticky at a found hide because they haven't been maybe either reinforced or understand that there is another chance to get reinforcement if you leave the current hide. And then I would obviously start with, might change those boxes to chairs, so get it away from a container context and have the hides on every chair and then add in some cold chairs. And then finally, what I'll also do, and those are obviously all close hides, but I also put a lot of emphasis on working close hides so that dogs can literally turn around and like bump into a hide initially. And that actually seems like a really advanced skill, finding close hides. But if we, you know, set the premise and the process, then it's actually the dogs are successful instead of having them have to travel, you know, 50 feet to find another hide or something. So, and it works really, really well. I like to keep it as simple as possible and clear for the handler and the dog. So, what do you do to kind of convey the concept that, you know, a previously found hide won't pay again? Yeah, and this becomes such an important topic and skill for those are teams. And if you don't address it early on, that's one of the main questions I get later on for teams. So, first what I'll do, and this took me a while to accept this as a possibility, and it's one of the biggest evolutional changes that I've made in my training was I'll pick up the hides. So, I'll pick up the hides. So, if you're starting out and you have the containers, I'm not too worried about it because there's a visual, like something to draw them to the next one, and you can't easily pick up a container. But once I'm doing hides, like in an area, I'll pick up the first hide. And you're usually probably only doing two of the close hides set up. And it was a hard concept for me because I was told, you know, from day one, never, ever have odor on you. You can't have odor on you. So, and just over the years, I started realizing that dogs aren't really searching us for odor, and you can slip it into a pocket. And for that short period of time, you know, having odor on you isn't a problem.

But some teams are dogs that really kind of can trip them up, especially the dog saying you pick up the hide kind of confuses them. But I'll do that for like a couple weeks where you're just going to pick up the hide because dogs really, really use their memory. They really use their memory to go back to found hides. You know, they use a lot of cognitive processing. And that's why they actually go back to found hides. So, if you've picked it up and they go back, it's gone. Now, there might be some lingering odor, but most dog goes, oh, well, it's not here anymore. Okay. And it does help them not go back. It doesn't completely stop it, but it's an intermediate step. So, then once you start leaving the hides out, just never, ever pay. You know, it's been such an evolution of different trainers and hearing other instructors and colleagues speak about this. It's actually kind of comical because you're like, well, I'll treat them if they go back a second time. Or, oh, maybe I'll treat them if they come back at it from a different angle. It looks like they sourced it differently. Or, and what I used to say, and I might still say, is if the dog got spooked or something and got scared right around that time or something, maybe you would reinforce it. But I'm literally now saying you just cannot pay that again. And it's hard because I was so much, and we all are, like odor pays, odor pays, odor pays. But I just realized that dogs can, you know, remember. And if, but if we reward them at a hide, then they're going to just gamb, they're gamblers, right? They're going to go back. And you actually, if you sometimes pay and you sometimes don't, then you've created a very strong variable reinforcement schedule. And they're like going to, you know, keep trying to go back. So, we almost just need to never, never pay again. And then on top of that is very, very clear cues. So, like, I will say the dog finds the hide. When they're done, I'm going to say a word like okay, which is a release word or a cue to find another. And I might even give them a tactile pat. And all of those things are telling the dog this is done. They don't know it right away when they're learning, but this hide is done because of these chain of events. And one of my really, you know, pet peeves is when somebody says you found that one, you know. So, you really just want to keep your process very, very, you know, consistent that you don't pay again and you cue them what you want them to do. So, what do you do? Talk us through just kind of how you handle it if a dog does reindicate a previously found hide, like in the moment. Yeah. Yeah.

And I covered that a little bit already is that I'm going to, so they go back. And you want to actually let the dog go back. And that's another thing that we've had to play around with is because a lot of times we're like, no, no, you know, pulling them off or leave it, which you shouldn't say any of that. So, you want to let the dog go back because once you have to let them learn that it's not going to pay again. And that's why picking up the hide is a little bit of an errorless learning, right? But now at some point they're going to have to go and realize that, oh, this isn't going to pay. Okay. Also, and it's fascinating when you see it, sometimes dogs will go back to a hide to use it to anchor off of finding another hide, especially when I have close hides, if we're working close hides. So, a lot of times when you see it, you know, with certain dogs, and it's really cool that dog will, once the dog really understands the concept of not going back, they might still go back there to say, okay, this is the one I already found. This other thread of odor I got is over here, and it helps them find another hide. So, that's one thing that I will do is I will actually let them go back. And as I already said, you know, you want to tell them what you want them to do, not what they already did. You know, you don't want to say, you found that one, or you got it, or some people say no and pull them out. You just want to simply have verbal stimulus control over your dog and say, okay, which I really like that as a release word. And actually, I'm leaning more toward just saying, okay, not even recueing to find another because all those words add, you know, engagement to that area and just simply say, okay, and let the dog learn, you know, learn to cast off. So, are dogs actually remembering which hides they found during a search? Is it a memory? Yes. So, this has been shown over and over and over to the hundreds of teams that I see, actually, probably every week, especially if I'm on teaching online and in-person classes. And they do have a strong cognitive ability with their memory and paying attention to their environment. And the reason I can say that is because, let's say you put a hide in your living room under on a stool. And then a couple days later, you're going to do another search in that room. The dog goes to that stool. I mean, two days later, the hide's been picked up. Maybe you even cleaned it, you know, wiped it down or whatever. And you just started realizing that if they're remembering where a hide was two days later, they are surely remembering it in a two-minute search, right?

They're going to remember that they were there. And it's actually, you know, the intelligence of any living being that you use your other senses. Like, you know, when you're going to use your other senses when you do things, your vision, your memory. Um, so it's, it's a, it's, um, it's a good, you know, skill, um, learning, um, application skill that dogs and people have. Um, so that's why I know they remember it. And, and it, and if you think about how each hide, I think of each hide as having a unique scent stamp. So even if you have two birch hides out there, one's going to be a little stronger than the other. One's going to have, and maybe if one's in a sleeve, one's in a tin, they're going to have a different material smell where the hide is placed is going to have a unique scent smell. This one hide is where, um, you know, some bugs had been crawling around and this other hide is where bird poop was or something. So that I just each, each location of these, these two hides, let's say two hides, there is a unique scent stamp, even if they're both the same odor. And of course, that's why I mentioned earlier, you kind of want to have each of the scents being different initially so that the dog, if there's birch and clove, they should remember I found this, this, this clove hide, you know, that, that, that's going to be another component that's going to be in their memory. Um, so it, it, yeah, they can. And I, and I have found that some dogs are just more natural at it. Like my Malinois Drac, I just observed it one day years and years ago where he just never went back on his own. And I hope, you know, I attribute that to my process. You know, I was implementing a process of, um, you know, my cues very consistently to move on and things like that. And, and I also know that there's some dogs that seem to have a harder time with that concept. And, and I think you have to get to the root of it again, back to, do they not find, they might not find value for the hunt. They'd rather just stay at a known entity. Oh, this, this is paid. I want to get paid. I don't want to put any more work. So you've got to make the hunt fun. You've got to maybe add some more value to the hunt and less on the find. And, um, a couple of things that I've changed, um, is, um, rewarding a little bit less. Like back in the days with my first dog, Savvy, um, I would feed like for 30 seconds. And all that did was make that hide very sticky and made it more valuable. So, um, there's just a line that you want to draw to like value, you know, finding other ones more than the one that you just found. Gotcha.

So I imagine this whole concept gets even trickier when we add other pieces to it, right? Like, especially if you maybe have overlapping scent funnels, um, can you talk a little bit about how you approach adding complexity to the process and really, you know, cementing the dog's understanding of the concept here, right? That there's multiple hides and they want to find one and then find another, et cetera. So yeah, dogs can, uh, really parse out competing scent cones pretty easily. And, um, rarely are two hides super converge that they, um, are too hard to separate out. Um, so that's one way I look at it. And a lot of times when I look at these situations, um, I want to look at it, not from our perspective, but from the dogs, like to us, it seems really, really hard. Um, but from the dog's ability to scent, um, they can really, um, separate that out. And again, that's something that you see when you works with so many dogs, whether it's their memory and their ability to remember, um, and how they can work those close hides. Like I've, I've even done close multiple hides of the same odor and it's trickier. Um, but that's not what I'm going to use to teach dogs, but they can actually sort that out. They're amazing. Like their olfactory ability is super, super amazing. Okay. So you mentioned earlier, you're doing a workshop on one of a kind hides. Do you want to share a little bit more about it and maybe who might want to consider joining you? Yeah. Um, one of the most common questions I get is about dogs that get really sticky, you know, at the hides, um, they fail to move off or they frequently return. And then the teams can't remember what hides they found. And so that's why a lot of teams want to take over the search and cover every box and point at every area. And that's just not the way that I prefer to handle our dogs, um, to give them some autonomy. So if you can, um, see if you can teach your dog or have a higher confidence that they're not going to go back to found hides, um, but that's going to help your strategy going into a search and you're not going to be worried if they cut a corner and they didn't cover one box. Um, so I think for teams that, um, really want to improve, uh, the flow of their search, their confidence of their dog, not going back. Um, and, and cause it's hard, there are some setups at the advanced levels where you've got a hundred containers out there and they're all toolboxes. You cannot remember. Like I wouldn't, I mean, I have a good memory of, of where my dog is roughly as found hides,

but that's, you know, you're going to lose, um, perspective of that pretty quickly. Uh, so I think for teams who, um, get sticky at hides and actually when I had just mentioned about feeding too much at a hide, I'd worked with a student who the dog had a really hard time moving off, but I, but they were still kind of using a, a, um, technique from early on about feeding a lot of source. And that was time to move on from that. So I think a lot of the times when we train our dogs on skills, we forget to move on from that step. And then you have to move on to the, to the next step of now you're doing multiple hides. So you have to, um, feed less at the one. And sometimes I suggest you feed less at the first one, more at the second one, you know, to have a kind of a cascading, you know, increase the reinforcement. Uh, but this is one of the most, uh, questions that I get is about, I can't remember where the hides are. I, you know, my dog's, um, pin, you know, ping ponging all over the place. And I feel that this will help that it's not going to stop your dog from pinpoint, you know, ping ponging around, but it will give you a little bit more confidence that they, um, probably, um, are going to new hides. And even if they're not going to new hides and an unknown number of hides, you can just call them again. But when you have a known number, you have three hides. You really want to make sure you, they are unique hides because if you call them again and think they're three different ones, you're not going to pass. So, um, and, and I think that another reason to join this class is I talk a lot about the, you know, consistency and, and clarity and our, and our, our processes and routines that were, you know, consistent and predictable to our dogs. And that's so important. And we don't normally talk about that as much with nose work. And, um, and, and like I said, I think some dogs are going to, this is harder for them and some dogs, this is, um, easier for them. And then I think most of the dogs are just like, oh, great. I understand now what's, what's going to pay and what's not going to pay. Um, so it's a fun, it's a fun workshop. I, I really, I really enjoy this very, you know, focused topic. Yeah. Yeah. Um, so in addition to the workshop, you're running two classes in August. Do you want to just, uh, you know, talk a little bit about each of them and share some info? Yes. So I have two classes. First, I'm teaching nose work 120, which is the second class in our introductory series. So they, this follows after nose work 101. Um, most are going to be continuing from the 101 class from last term.

Um, I do get some new people that join and, um, cause they want to maybe strengthen. And their element skills, you know, elements being vehicles or exteriors. And I'm also work on, um, handling and all my classes. So that's really great. And because I do get some people that start with me at one 20, um, I do, I post a lot of supplemental videos, um, you know, basically available at registration, which is actually just a copy from one one. Um, so it gives you a little bit of, um, kind of a highlight summary of some of the introducing interiors and introducing containers just so that people come in knowing a little bit more about my approach and my strategy. So that's kind of a, you know, cool. You get a little bit of a bonus of some of the one-on-one, um, you know, some of the one-on-one, um, concepts. A little bit of review for those who have done it and a little bit of, um, you know, here's the highlights of how I approach it. If you haven't been through class with me. Yeah. And it's actually kind of cool because it is kind of like a, like I take kind of the main topics and do like a little, one little lecture on it. And it kind of just kind of does a quick, quick, quick, you know, remember these things we worked on. Like if you want to work on go to source or staying or duration, I have a little summary of each of those. And then my other class is, um, clarity with contrast. And, um, I really love this class because I realized when I was teaching my local classes, you know, you teach them day in and day out year after year after year. And I found that I was always showing like, well, let's work, um, a blank area. And then we're going to add a hide in there and see the contrast, how your dog responds with if there's a hide and if there's not a hide, or what if you had a completely empty area, like nothing, just walls, walls or poles around your environment. There's no, no objects because the things I just mentioned, a lot of things we start off with is very object focused for containers in a row, for chairs in a row. And so then you, so you compare the empty room and to a cluttered room, um, or accessible versus inaccessible. Um, and a fun one that I'm doing, and I've added some really neat, um, variations of not a container search, um, which used to be basically have some containers in your room and then the hides just on a chair somewhere. And that's fun as it is, but I've done some other really fun stuff is like, it's very, not as you think it's, it's, um, more contextually a container search, but it's on the ground or,

um, do something, um, suspended hides above an area that the dogs think it's vehicles, but it's not, it's suspended. And I've added some really cool variations to that. So what that is actually, um, focusing on is the difference between a dog's cognitive processing and their olfactory skills. And so I talked about that earlier about, you know, that's why with the memory of a, uh, a unique hides is they strongly use cognitive processing. And, um, I remember, you know, hearing from some of the presenters I've gone to over the years from law enforcement, when they pick a dog for their program, they test their dog on memory and they test their dog on olfactory. And they pick the dog on, let me see, can you guess, what are they going to pick the dog on? I would hope they'd pick it on olfactory. Am I right? Am I wrong? Okay. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Yeah. And not to say that like, uh, memory, I'm memory is good. I know I've taken some classes with Lucy Newton and, and, and, and she does so much of this same stuff with tracking too. And she says even a tracking dog is going to be smart to use their eyes and, and they're valuable senses. They're valuable, but we, we, we want a dog that leans more total olfactory. So that's kind of my like mission and with nose work is, uh, to teach dogs, to rely on their olfactory, to pick up the threads of odor in the air. Um, cause you can get dogs and people who get really stuck on, I got to go check all these tables. I see all these chairs, you know? So I just, I was just cool that I came up that it was just kind of a yin and a yang or a contrast or whatever. And it's really fun. Um, I think I did it. I want to think I did it as like a conference topic. And then I turned it into a six week class. Um, but it is super, super fun. And it really, I, I, I find that it really, um, really gets across the, the point of nose work. It's not checking like just five objects on the ground. It's, it's really using your nose. And what's nice about this class is, um, it's, it's a low, uh, it's a two Oh two something, um, 200 series. Um, you, you like, like if people had finished my one 20 class, they could have taken this class. Um, it really is for all levels. Like I have people that just came out of my ambitious drills class or planning to take this class. Um, because you can make it harder or you can make it really easy. And, and, and it's, it's introducing a lot of really, really foundational concepts. So I just, I just love it. Good stuff. Um, any, you know, final thoughts or things you maybe want to leave listeners with?

Um, it's going to be always tough when we talk about three different kinds of overlapping topics, but I just wanted to say when I thought about this was, you know, over the years, we all go up through our ups and downs of like training and competing and, um, you know, and, and, and I just have thought about that. What nose work has taught me is to, to find the game that your dog loves and it doesn't have to be nose work, but find the game that your dog loves. And it just is a, is a really great, um, experience for you and your dog. And I found that again, my journey through nose work has been taught me a more about, it's less about the ribbon chase and you're, you're, you're able to just trust another, I know, living species to take, take, take the lead and they really enjoy it. You know, there's, there's only a few dogs. I find that, you know, it's, you know, using their nose is not their strongest trait, but they just really love it. And, and, uh, that's kind of why I've kind of focused more on those classes through Fensi. Um, but it just continues to teach me to appreciate the relationship that we have with our dogs and just truly embrace that time we have together. It just, I don't want it to even sound cliche because believe me, I chase ribbons too. You know, I want to do well, we all want to do well, but I've learned to say, we still do well if we're not the best team out there. And, and just cause I've been doing it so long now, you know, some of that gratification I've already had, right. I've had some wins and some great, you know, accomplishments. And then the other thing I just wanted to say was I do love working with new teams and continuing teams. Um, I find that we've, I build, build a very cohesive environment in my classes. Um, a lot of collaboration and growth. I mean, I have some really good trainers that take my classes and I feel like a lot of times I'm just a colleague of them and we're, we're collaborating on a problem and, and, and we're working on it together. And I learned so much from my students that I couldn't have learned on my own. And, um, you know, I've, you know, a lot of these relationships have turned into friendships and, and I've just extended the community of support around the world, you know? And, um, I just, I wish I could always come up with a new class for, for everybody who I've met, you know? Yeah. So, um, I guess I just got to come up with more workshops, right? Maybe, maybe that's the answer. Yeah. So instead of talking about like a training topic, I just wanted to just share just how

I was feeling about the sport and those work and, and just working with the people online at there, it's just been wonderful. It's just transformation and, you know, just meeting new people and learning from them and them learning from you and everybody's, you know, happy. So having a good time. Yeah. Awesome. All right. Well, thank you, Julie, for coming on the podcast. Thank you very much. And thanks to our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with Tracy McLennan to talk about training around critter focused dogs. So kind of the opposite. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast and iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fensi Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fensi for supporting this podcast. Music provided royalty free by bensound.com. The track featured here is called Buddy. Audio editing provided by Chris Lang. Thanks again for tuning in and happy training. Bye. Bye.