E262: 시몬 뮐러(Simone Mueller) - "반려견의 포식성"

science-based, force-free and positive dog training was taught. And this is how I finally got there. How would you kind of describe your current training philosophy or kind of your approach to training? My current training philosophy? Well, yeah, I try to do things or teach things as much as possible through games because I have made the experience when people come to my training and they have been to several trainers before and their dog is a big hunter and everybody is quite tense and demotivated and a little bit depressed because people really suffer when their dogs do things that they shouldn't do. So then what the people lack and what they want to find or what they should find again is that they treat their dog and it's with, yeah, how do I say that? That is fun. Dog training should be fun because the dogs feel the mood that you're in and when you're training with them and you have fun and everything is a little bit lighter, then we have more success. Yeah, this is something that I find really important to bring the joy into dog training again. So this improves the whole relationship that people have with their dogs. When they come to me, joy is something that they are lacking. So you kind of focus on it as a key piece of the training process overall and the building the relationship piece. Is that kind of getting at what you're saying? Yes. Yeah, exactly. So it's the relationship and the relationship should be lighthearted. They should find the joy in training again and the joy of being with their dog and being out with their dog and yeah, not just being afraid of what is going to happen next. Yeah, it's hard when you get into that mind space. So I wanted to talk a little bit about predation related things since, you know, kind of that's your focus. So let's start with the basic, right? Like what is predation to start with? Yeah, predation is something that is so important to our dogs. When you think about the motivations that our dogs have in their daily life, it's normally that they want to meet other dogs. They want to socialize or they want to hunt. It's really something that is, yeah, really, really crucial for their self-understanding and for their being. Yeah, it's also something that is quite tough for people because predation, because it is so important for our dogs and it feels so good. The dogs want to repeat it over and over again. And this is when people really are in despair when they're out and about with their dogs. Well, predation, the problem with predation is that when people come to me and they say, normally they say, well, my dog chases something.

They chase rabbits or they chase cars or they chase cats or whatever. And predation is much more than just the chase. If you have a look at the predatory motor pattern, it starts way before the chase. It starts with orientation in the environment. The dog puts their nose down or they put the nose high up in the air or they scan the environment. Is there something to hunt? And the moment they have found something that might be of interest, they go into a stalk or for a border collie, you normally call it the eye when they stare at something. And then what happens next is they start to creep forward and they want to bridge the gap between themselves and the wild animal. And only when they are close enough so that they think, oh, yes, now it's worth trying to chase. Then they go into the chase. And this is the moment when people realize, oh, my God, now we are in trouble. My dog is hunting. But you can see that before that, there was such quite a long time when people didn't realize that their dog is already in hunting mode. And they still had time to do something about it, but they didn't realize it. So they, yeah, they didn't do anything. And then the dog is chasing and then we're in trouble. And yeah, the predatory motor pattern goes on after the chase. If the dog is, let's call it lucky, and catches the prey animal, then they will grab bite and they will kill bite and eventually will dissect and eat. And then the predatory motor pattern has come to an end. Of course, our dogs that are bred for a certain task, they do, or most of our dogs do not go through the whole motor pattern. Some parts of the motor pattern have been highlighted and some have been completely bred out because we don't, we as humans don't want them. Imagine a hunting dog who is not only helping his hunter, but also, yeah, eating the prey in the end. This is what the human wants to do. So parts of these, this motor pattern has been bred out. But still, there are, yeah, parts of them that they want to perform. And predation is self-rewarding or intrinsically reinforcing, which means that it feels super good for our dogs. They release a lot of dopamine. They release a lot of endorphins. And yeah, it feels like doing drugs basically for them. So you can really say that predation makes the dogs high. And they can get addicted to it, huh? Yes, definitely. This is a problem. So you mentioned that part of what got you interested in this was your first dog. Can you just tell me a little bit more about that? Yeah. So when I got her in 2002, this was the very beginning of the force-free interpretation protocols in Germany.

But at that time, I didn't know about it. So I went to several dog clubs because this was the only thing that were available at that time in my area. And well, yeah, they told me, yeah, yeah, you have to make yourself more interesting for your dog. And I never got how to do that. And this is still something that happens today that people come to me totally in despair saying, I know I have to be more interesting for my dog, but he's not interested in my toys and in my treats when we're out and about. And this is so unfair because, yeah, how can you as a human be more interesting than something to hunt? So it is hardwired in our dogs to find this super interesting. And this was the same with my first dog. So I was there screaming, shouting, waving with my toy, and she just went off. And I remember one day when I was at home in my shower crying over this because I said, we have no, yeah, this was another thing that I was told. If you can't make yourself super interesting for your dog, then the relationship is not good. And this is so harsh if you hear something like this, because you question all the relationship with your dog. I am not good enough for my dog. I'm not interesting enough. We have not a good relationship with each other. But how can we do it better? How can we do it differently? Yeah. And this was really hard. And then I think it was in 2000. And yeah, maybe we have to add that in Germany, it is forbidden to use shock collars or e-collars in dog training. So this was not an option. But I went to several trainers and basically nobody could really help me. And then I came across the first book on this topic. I think it was in 2008. And this was really a game changer. And yeah, when you read this, that it's a whole different perspective on predation, on how to work with your dog. So that instead of working against the predatory instinct, you use the predatory instinct to work with the predatory instinct. And you are a part of their hunting experience. And yeah, it changes anything. So tell me a little more about that. So you've written books on it at this point. Can you just share a little more kind of about how you approach it? What does that look like? Yeah. So the first book that I read on this is, yeah, I was astonished that these protocols are not wide known in the English-speaking dog training world because in Germany, we have several books on this topic. And I, well, I said, well, we have to do something against that. We have to improve the situation. So I basically wrote my first book. I never thought that I could read, I could write a book.

But yeah, it turned out quite easily for me because I just put all the things that I learned during my dog trainer education in this little book. And the approach is basically that you structure your training into four parts. The first part is management. So yeah, you try to keep your dog from hunting in the first place. And there is so much more that you can do than just putting your dog on a leash and staying on the path. There are things that you could do about arousal. You can teach your dog to be calmer outside. And the second part is that you have tools for when you are in the situation with your dog, when you encounter wildlife. You teach your dog calmness around wildlife and what they can do instead of chasing. You teach them an alternative that is still functional. Functional means it serves the same function. So the dog can still stay in this predatory sequence and experience all the nice hormones that are released into their body. And they have this nice experience that they have when they are hunting, but without chasing. And therefore, you take the predatory motor pattern and you divide it into two parts, into safe parts that the dog can perform together with you and unsafe parts that we cannot allow our dogs to perform. And the third part of predation substitute training is that you play games with your dog because the unsafe parts of the predatory motor pattern, such as grabbing and ripping things apart and dissecting and chasing, our dogs still have those needs. They do not know that we live in a world where it's not appropriate to hunt a deer or a rabbit. And yeah, we give them these experiences through games. And I'm very, very sure that our dogs know that it is just a game and it's not the real stuff. But I compare it to a sugar-free version of predation. So when, for example, when you like to drink Coke, I love Coke, for example, and I like the real Coke, but I can't have it every day because it's not healthy, a lot of sugar, blah, blah, blah. So what I do is I drink some diet Coke, the sugar-free version. And after that, I'm not thirsty anymore. I had that nice little Coke taste, but I know it's not the real stuff. And it's the same with our dog. I'm sure that they know that games are games and the real stuff is the real stuff, but they are so cooperative with us humans and they enjoy doing things with us together so much that they do the sugar-free version with us. Yeah. And the fourth part is a super strong interrupter that needs to be built and scaffolded really, really well to work even in the moment when the dog is in full chase. And this is a chore.

This is hard work to build this, but it can be achieved. I love that. So it's broken down to four pieces. Just really quickly, again, can you just name them off for me? Kind of with the four. Yeah. So the first is management and prevention. The second one is the predation substitute tools that you use in real life situations. The third one are the predation substitute games. And then we have the interrupter, the recall, basically. Excellent. Excellent. So all of this, you're going to go into a whole lot more depth for us during a webinar that's coming up, right? Yeah. On the 24th called Harness Your Hunter with Force-Free Predation Substitution Training. So talk to me a little bit about what's in the webinar, what people kind of expect. Yeah. So in the webinar, we are basically covering three of these four aspects. First of all, I'm going to explain what predation is and why it is so hard to interrupt for us humans and why it basically makes no sense to struggle against those needs that our dogs have. And then we are, or I'm going to give people really practical stuff that they can use when they are out and about with their dog. So the moment they have finished the webinar, they can just start. We are going to talk about two measures that you can take in order to manage your dog when you're out and about so that they do not feel the need to hunt that strong and they do not get the opportunity to basically stumble across wildlife. And then we are going to talk about two, yes, two predation substitute tools. We are going to talk about scanning and stalking, how you teach your dog to perform safe parts of the predatory sequence instead of the unsafe chase. And then in terms of games, we are going to do three games together. Yes. So I will share three games, one for a chaser and one for a stalker and another game for any dog that any dog will enjoy. Yeah. And this is basically it because the fourth part of the predation substitute training, the recall, the interrupter or stopping the dog in front of wildlife. This is such a big topic. Yeah. The webinar would go on for another hour or something like this. So I left this out. Fair enough. So who might really want to consider signing up for this? Like who is kind of the ideal person to sit and watch? I think I had a dog owner in mind that has a dog that is interested in things outside. So when rather moderate prey drive, I think this is when you have the biggest success. If you have a dog with a large prey drive and a massive prey drive, then, yeah, you can still do this training, of course. But I think a webinar will not be enough for you.

So there should be some more in-depth analysis of the behavior and why it is going on in such a strong way. Because there are so many factors involved that might cause super strong prey drive, like health issues going on or some stress at home that the dog finds relief when they are out and about in hunting behavior. But let's say a normal predatory behavior, a healthy, moderate form of predatory behavior when you have a dog with this, then the webinar might already be a very, very good starting point where you can just work on and maybe this will already be enough for you and your dog. This might be all that you need. So to kind of round out our chat, one last question for you, which is if we were to kind of drill down what we've been talking about today into one key piece of information or a key takeaway that you really want listeners to understand, what would it be? Well, I think you can make your life much easier if you understand that predation is something that makes our dogs super happy and that they enjoy so much. And it's not necessary to interrupt anything and everything that has to do with predation. You can enjoy this together with your dog in a safe and healthy way. And once you have changed your perspective to put the focus on the more cooperative part, then you see predation through totally different eyes. You don't see it as a hassle anymore that you have to stop and that you have to get rid of. You see it as a kind of hobby that you can do together and as a kind of bond that grows between you and your dog. I love that. And it kind of flips on its head what you were saying earlier, right, about you don't have enough relationship. Well, let's use this to to show how much relationship you really do have. Exactly. Yeah. Excellent. All right. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. This has been fantastic. Thank you very, very much for having me tonight, Melissa. And I'm looking forward to the webinar. And, yeah, I'm looking forward to the Q&A afterwards that people can ask me questions after the webinar. And I'm really excited about that. Awesome. Thank you to all of our listeners for tuning in. We'll be back next week with several of our team judges to talk about a soon to be released new team program. If you haven't already subscribed to our podcast in iTunes or the podcast app of your choice, they have our next episode automatically downloaded to your phone as soon as it becomes available. Today's show is brought to you by the Fenzie Dog Sports Academy. Special thanks to Denise Fenzie for supporting this podcast.

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