Training Without Conflict® 팟캐스트 에피소드 75: Aivo Oblikas

thankful that you asked me to join and uh hopefully it's getting to this direction that for for ICP people very often the the tracking is a little bit boring. So I hope that I can inspire people a little bit to get more sugar and spice from the tracking. So So I'm very very much pleased to speak about tracking. We can discuss about IGP and so on about the sport. But now I tell a little bit about myself. >> Yes. Yes. I know you have a interesting story how you got into the dogs and everything. So >> um I started as a helper in the middle of ' 90s and uh the funny thing how I started was that um uh I had those days tobermans and the Estonian Doberman Association organized IP seminar here with Finlands and I was the only man participating the seminar. All the rest were women handlers and Finnish uh uh teachers and trainers made a present Estonian u uh Doberman Association. They uh brought a sleeve and some training stuff uh to train pipe work. And then they wanted to make a photo for the magazine that someone from Estonia has the sleeve. And as I was only men, they gave the sleeve to me that now you should look like a helper. And somehow it moved to this direction that I put the sleeve on and uh 10 women started to to discuss that maybe you won't get it off so maybe it would start to train and so on. So for me it was very interesting because earlier times I was doing track and field sport and I just finished this sport because I had quite bad injury and so I had uh free time and space to start something and so the dog sport was very perfect for this. I mean I started step by step. I had a lot of help from Finland and Sweden. Uh people coming to Estonia making seminars and so on. And in the beginning uh I was uh training as a helper. I mean I did a long time just helper work. >> Mhm. >> But then I started to look that um if I train bite work but obedience and and tracking is not such a level. But there should be there is no idea to train just bite work because you have to have all three disciplines and so I started also to train people tracking and obedience and I would say so that uh I have been competing by myself with several dogs but beside of this I have had all the time quite big training groups. So it has been like about 14 15 dogs. uh I have been training all three disciplines and now for a little bit over than 30 years. So I have every day every week like two days or three days uh in the evening or Saturday Sunday I train dogs because I have uh my work during the day. So it's the dog sport is a hobby for me and um I think that as a charge it gives me so much practical uh point of view because I train so much

different kind of talks and so on. So I I can have the touch I mean to the to the discipline. I think that this is very much important for the charges. Uh concerning the tracking uh it is a little funny story. Uh when I make seminars I always uh tell this because I think that it could motivate people to train tracking and it is so that um with my first Doberman uh I succeeded in tracking quite nice. I got points over the 90 and I was very self-confident and then I took uh the puppy from my own breeding and I started to train the dog for the uh to go to the world championships and uh those days I was doing a lot uh obedience tracking. I do it left and right, left and right and so on. My dog was very very good in the legs, but I messed up in the corner. I did something wrong. I built up the conflict in the corner. And uh the funny thing is that I failed like everywhere. I failed in IGP1 those days IPO1. >> I got the result just in the first start. So I got the result in bite vent and obedience. But I failed the tracking. Failed second time. Third time I got the result. Then I moved to IPO2. I failed again. And then I got the result in the second time. And then I moved to IPO3 and I failed in tracking eight times a row. >> That's when most people will stop. >> Yeah. Exactly. So that uh my my dog always went until the first corner and uh then the self-confidence somehow got so badly hidden uh because he was stressed in the corner. He came back and it finished and then I had a lot of uh good people who said that put the sleeve to the end, put a lot of toys to the track and so on. In the training everything was perfect. He was doing so nice track and going again to the competition again 13 points and go home. And on the last competition uh I had 93 in uh obedience and 94 in the bite work. And the funny thing was that I I took a suit with me. I was like tie and suit >> and uh I said to my wife that I have a feeling that now I will go and I get the results. Uh I had suit with me and I failed in the tracking. I got again something like 14 points or or 20 points and that's it. Uh that I had a suit I did B and C with the suit. So I have uh fancy photos from 20 years ago when I was doing you know back transport looks a little bit like FBI you know there is a prisoner in the front and you have your suit black suit and you're walking with Doberman behind. So it was very much fancy uh my idea was that I thought that I would like to celebrate if I get the result. So I had the suit uh but I didn't get the result. So I was driving home and I said to my wife that that's it. I will finish now. I just can't go on because it's too much failing.

>> And my wife said that uh isn't it would be fun for you if you find a solution. I mean for you as for trainer it would be very much educational if you find a solution. And um you know at this point I had trained dogs for tracking for 10 years and it was first time when I started to think about what I do in tracking and basically I changed totally the approach. I mean I started to see the tracking totally opposite than most people see it and uh then I started to build up my system and I was uh doing next start in two months. I got results here in Estonian German Shepherd Championships. I uh went next spring to Doberman World Championships. We have a winter so basically we couldn't train the dog for five months. So basically after two months training I got in Doberman Championships fifth best result in the tracking and all totally 10th place in in the world championships. So basically uh the thing I changed I just changed approach and everything started to be totally different. So I always say to the people that uh if you have the wrong point of view or wrong approach and everything looks not so perfect it's good to sit down and little bit analyze what you can do differently or or basically you need to understand what you are doing in the field and in my opinion a lot of IGP people uh training the tracking so that they don't have very mood understanding what they are doing there. So they are doing something but they are not clearly understanding what they are doing. Do you uh um to back up a little bit when when you mentioned um how most most IGP trainers look at tracking as far as being more of a like obedience structured versus the way you look at tracking right now. Let's let's talk a little bit about this because it's a I guess that's probably where we we should start. Um because definitely there is to to very different approaches how we look at tracking, right? And I and I think also depends to some extent on the dog and and how much natural ability a dog can have. And we can argue that every dog should be able to do the simple footstep follow a track because their nose is just exceptional. But when you when you say that um there is a people people look at tracking as an obedience in some way. Tell tell us a little bit more about this uh the the differences of style of and way of thinking and and so on. Uh for me it was a little bit like so that uh if we speak about the nose of dog uh it is crazy that the dog can smell the finger fingerprint from the glass. The handler has been drinking wine there is a finger dip in the glass and dog can

smell it after 6 weeks. >> Yes. So if we think this idea the IGP1 or IGP3 or even FH it is so so easy for the dog. I mean the news has so much more capability than we use. And uh the thing what I think people are doing wrong is that uh people like to train obedience and bite work uh because they understand what they are training. I mean if you say to the so dog sit and you see that the dog is sitting you understand that the dog is sitting. Uh if you give in bite work the house command uh you also see that the dog is making out. So uh it's very black and white. uh when you train the dog in the tracking uh I would say not a single person can see does the dog track or does the dog not track I mean uh if the dog is moving by the track we assume that the dog is tracking but we don't know does the dog really track so uh in my opinion if we force the dog in the tracking field to obedience to left and right obedience. There is a huge risk that uh we build up the model for the dog that uh he understands if he makes left and right. We gave positive feedback. He he could make the left and right without using the nose at all and getting positive feedback for this. So basically we are training a little bit for the dogs like sit and lay down but on the tracking field and giving for the action the feedback that he's correct uh I train more the attitude uh I uh give positive feedback if the dog has correct state of mind in the tracking and the correct state of mind means that the draw uh wants to track and he takes care of the track. I always say that if you basically have the diamond ring and you put the diamond ring to the drawer somewhere, you always know where is the diamond ring. And if you lose the diamond ring, you always look it very carefully. M >> uh I want that the track is for the dog the diamond ring. So when I start with the puppy uh I think that this is the same like obedience that if the dog use the nose in the natural way he won't make left and right tracking like we would like to see in our discipline. So I introduce the tracking for the puppy from left to right. So I introduce that this is the thing I want to see and then the puppy understands okay this is what we need to do and then the handler is happy and uh that we can call the model and the model means that there is a certain kind of grass there is left and right steps there is some food and probably when we teach the puppy We also give some signals for the puppy with leash. We either give corrections, we give positive, whatever. That means that

there is a huge risk that in this model puppy starts to understand that he needs to take signals from us >> to listen to you more than >> or listen us and make the left right thing because then we are happy. So uh I try to move out from this model as fast as possible. And um usually I say also to people when we discuss about tracking that there is one thing what you need to understand that uh in the nature if we take wolves or bears or whatever track means that someone has been going somewhere walking that means that if we start from the grass we go to the road we go to the blackground there is always the track I mean for walk the model should be the person who has been walking. So there is always the track not the model what we are doing in the nice field all the time same way. >> Mhm. >> Because if we make very much the same model we modelize the dog to work in the certain surface in the certain way. But if the dog drops out of this model, he don't have any ability because there has been not existing this thing in the model. So this is the the thing that if we train sit and lay down and the dog makes strong and beautiful sit for example and then we gave uh give command chair dog won't do anything because this is a new thing even he has so good connection even he has so good motivation but he won't do anything and this is the risk if we all the time make the same model that when we move out the model then the dog don't understand that that this is also tracking because we have trained very much the same box and giving good feedback. This is what I think differently. I always say to the people that track is just a track and this is how we should get it. Truck is going anywhere. Truck is going through forest. Truck is going through grass wherever truck is everywhere. when we walk, when we run, when we jump, this is all track. And that's why I train a lot such a uh how to say I I build up the stress in the tracking for the dog in the same way how it can happen in the nature that uh whatever can be in the in the way there can be river, there can be someone standing on the track, whatever because there is always the track. And that means that if this kind of talk drops out of the model, uh he won't be messed up in the head because he wants to track the track. Not that he's somewhere he don't knew know what to do. And this is the difference. I mean I can uh speak a lot about what I train and how to train but but this is like the basic uh I always say to the people that if you make retrieve uh in obedience you have just in one exercise you have about 10 exercises you have basic position you have getting the

speed you have taking the upward you have turning taking the speed moving taking the front position So just in one exercise there is 10 exercises and you have all together 10 different exercises. There is a huge amount of exercises but in tracking there is just one exercise. So basically in my mind the tracking can't be so complicated. The tracking is the easiest part of the IGP because there is just one exercise you need to train. The thing what makes it complicated is that people want to see black and white obedience. They want to see what the dog is doing. Uh but they can't understand does the dog track or does he just move around? And this is the so in tracking people need little bit better uh dog reading knowledge because they can't read the black and white thing. they need to read does the dog track. So basically I train it so that if there will be mistakes I always build the mistake as big as possible because then I can be sure that the dog is not tracking. I mean if the dog is speeding in the track uh let's say so we start with the puppy puppy moves on he gets all the time food he moves on he gets a move again food we say very good nicely done so we train the puppy that if you smell the track you need to move on isn't it so this is what we are telling to our our dog now there will be will be higher grass uh and there will be lot of smell And if the dog is not taking every step but he's moving fast by the line then basically in dog idea or dog head he's also tracking. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> If we say to the dog that uh this is not okay then we build huge conflict because we have said to the dog that if you are tracking then we are happy. Now the dog is tracking in E's head but we say this is not okay. That means that at this moment when the dog starts to speed and we make correction there is a huge uh possibility that we build up conflict because the dog is tracking we say no and dog don't know what to do. And if we make in this moment some help give again command or help with the leash we teach to the dog that if you have problems I will help you and this will be like the second problem. Then the thing what I do I train it so that if the dog is moving too fast I build over there a trap. I make the track in this way that if he's speeding, he can't manage. So if he gets off the track, I correct and the dog understands that he get the uh correction because he was not on the track. So I don't take the risk that I build up the conflict. Do you understand? It's a little bit like complicated different. >> So would you I'll I'll back up a little bit to Yeah. the basically the I mean many many trainers

when when they teach tracking they focus right away on this kind of very artificial orchestrated like really I would say forcing the dog but not necessarily forcing like how some people would think about forcing but really making it as an obligation that this is what you exactly what you need to do and nothing else you're allowed. So they develop a behavior in the dog, but because of so much structure, the dog doesn't ever feel the freedom to actually track. And it's it's that obligation that you want me you want to see the specific behaviors how I move on the track but not necessarily allow me to to track. And I I can see how this um um gets reinforced also by judges often. Um maybe not all judges, but for sure they are judges that will uh be very focused when they give the points and the critique. on. They have a a certain style of track that they want to see that it's almost if the dog tracks with great enthusiasm, but it doesn't show that specific style, they get penalized. Maybe not too much, but they get penalized. And that makes a lot of trainers to say okay then we have to make it orchestrated and it has to look like this this kind of robotic behavior that almost doesn't have purpose behind and I guess my question for you how do you I mean you kind of explain it to me and and we you and I have talked extensively about tracking and uh I I did need help at some point and and you know I got stuck with with my last dog here. Uh but there is that fine line between you know somebody spending a lot of time and not understanding how much freedom a dog should have. Should it have freedom? Should we allow the dog to do it in their own style or should we really influence very hard how they should look? Um a and then of course we have you know the the risk of somebody putting a lot of time in tracking and believing that okay I really have to make sure I don't care that it's discipline and obedience but I have to make sure that I will spend all this money and go to a championship and I need to pass and I think that way of thinking makes trainers believe that that more of a disciplined obedience style somehow will bring more uh security in in getting the points. However, even even at the World Championship that we just bought came from the FNBB, we saw many many many dogs

that crumbled very quickly because that this well you I I will be curious to hear what you think about it, but I believe it's because they they couldn't manage it by pure obedience and discipline and they had to actually put the enthusiasm and really the the freedom to use their nose and they couldn't they they felt that they cannot do that because they're not really ever trained that way. But how do you put the two together to where it's not so much obedience and discipline, but there has to be some you you're teaching the dog to be responsible as you said. And you're doing it much more by the way you set up every track. And and it's like I always said like it's like a tracking. It's like a chess game. Like you your move is when you lay the truck then the dog's move is working the truck and now you have the next move. And that is how you're going to lay the next truck. And that's how you build a a good dog. But >> for me it's like just playing a chess. I I I always train during the tracking so that it's like living organism. I mean I make a drawing. I make it so that I place the food on in the very certain places and when I see how the dog is tracking then I start to build up some things to to build the dog stronger. But I come back to your first question uh concerning the what some s is saying and concerning the differences in the tracking style. Uh I would say so that me as a charge uh I'm charging in the basis of FCI rules. Uh I need to charge in basis of FCI rules. And in FCI rules it said that the dog needs to track step by step. He needs to take the steps with power with self-confidence be concentrated and and all the other good things. So basically this is said in the rules. So in my opinion uh if there is obedience built talk who is very well built up he's showing 100 points track having all these elements inside. >> Mhm. Uh I have just as example uh I have from my group uh one dog I built up from the papage totally from the zero who got two years ago in Croatia in FCI IGP championships 100 points like best track in quite difficult field and this talk had the same step by step had self-confidence had power so It add all the same things what the people who are training obedience track having. So in my opinion the difference is not how the track is looking like. Now in FNBB uh in certain parts the track was very much seeable by the eyesh >> and some dogs just moved like by the line. They didn't take left and right but they moved by the track by the line. So they got less points because in our rules it said that there is 600 steps. That means that the dog needs to take

600 steps. Not about that he needs to go by the line and take just two steps. >> I mean this is the thing. So basically I agree that there is no difference. You train step by step with obedience or step by step in other approach. But it needs to be step by step with power with good concentration with nice drive in good balance in good cooperation and so on. So everything should be in there. But in obedience training tracking there is a huge risk that we give the positive feedback not for the tracking but for the obedience and this is the wrong thing. I mean if the dog is making strongly sit he looks very self-confident and if them he makes the tracking same way this is like sit exercise he makes it self-confident with nice power everything's perfect but if the tracking is not inside of this and he gets out of the track then he don't have any capability to solve the problem because he has never been teached to track. This is the thing you know. So basically I don't say that the obedience uh kind of tracking is bad but there must be also the tracking inside not just obedience because if the dog makes obedience and he will be out of the track he will be like uh some machine. you take the socket out from the electrics and he just stops because there is no electrics anymore. So this is the thing or I would say this is the different of the approach. So basically when I train the dog I also train because of this in the puppy age the left and right because we need in our discipline the left and right but I build the power the drive and self-confidence up uh on the basis that the dog understands that if he tracks in the certain way he feels better and if he don't track in the certain way there will be problems and then during the trainings he gets more self-confident more self-confident and self-confidence always brings the power it always brings the drive and the dog starts to make left and right very strong with nice power even we have not been doing much obedience left and right >> this is like little bit like coming to the same street from the opposite Right. >> What do you think was at the at the FMBB? I mean, quite a few dogs couldn't make it and I'm sure there was different reasons, but you were on the field every day and you were giving the points. What did you see? Cuz it cannot be just one problem. I mean I'm assuming different dogs had different reasons and like when you are evaluating and you're walking right there. What do you see in what are the the different reasons I should put it this way that dogs you saw that just gave up or got lost or or uh first of all I I must say that if we look look the statistics

uh this is not just about this FMBB >> if we look FCI championships for past years there is also quite big percentage of failure and this is the same also in several FMBBS. >> Mhm. >> So basically if we look the statistics there is always some dogs who won't get result in obedience but there is maybe three dogs, five dogs something like this maximum. There are some dogs who get terminated or disqualified in bite work but this number is also very small. And in tracking there is mostly 25 to 30% of the dogs who fail. So this is not about this year FMBB but this has been already like some years >> and in my opinion it started to come up uh when the bigger competitions started to be more done in the normal way. Earlier there was a long period when in the competitions the tracks were hit very strong. So the track was so easy that I could track without the torque. And if you have such a highway, all the obedience trained dogs uh show excellent results and they look very strong because they never get lost of the highway because it's so deeply put in that there is no way to get out even. So there was long period uh when all the bigger competitions were made like this. And in my opinion uh this was a huge mistake because uh earlier before this uh I think that there was much more knowhow about tracking in the world. But this period cleaned this knowhow out because to succeed you needed uh obedience in the tracking field because all the competitions were made quite in the same way. Then they started to change this approach and now I would say that most of the FCI world championships have the kind of tracking fields and the tracks are made in the quite normal steps. So you need to have the tracking and that's why a lot of dogs are failing and I I have been always telling to people that uh going to the world championships it's not the easy thing you need train a lot you need to put a lot of time in a lot of money in this is very long way to go and if you go to world championships and there is very easy tracking fields then you're lucky and you get results. >> Yeah, >> but it sounds so sad that you go there and you fail tracking. I mean you have put so much money and time and so on. Isn't it good to build up the tracking in the way that you will always succeed not just in the easy fields and in my opinion this is the problem of the uh organizers. If I look the bigger competitions uh like now we have this one sassid competition where the tracking was laid down. I saw how the tracking was laid down. I mean you don't need to have any talk to manage in this tracking. So basically if the organizers make such trackings they build up the false

picture and the people feel so much stronger and they don't need to develop and that means that if they go to FMBB or FCI they will crash over there. So uh this is the problem. I mean some of the dogs if they are built up nicely they manage in above uh fields but a lot of dogs uh will have problems. So if we would like to get some uh uh better tracking in the future, our organizers should keep the level. So people start to develop their understanding, people start to develop their training methods and I would say that if we would put down that next three years there won't be any competition stepped very strong and everything is made like a normal tracking after five years we wouldn't have not a single dog failing in FMB or FCI. So this is the thing but uh people like that the dog >> well that would be one option sorry to interrupt that would be one option and that will be the good option. >> Yeah. >> However >> we know from from experience that if if something like this happens then all of a sudden a new organization pops up and and everybody's successful. I mean this happened a few years back with with the obedience portion too. Obedience kind of became extremely difficult almost not not correct to be so difficult as far as the judging. Uh and many people kind of was like well this is ridiculous and and we're going to do we're going to step away and we're going to do something else. And I think um finding somehow for these changes to happen more gradually so people don't just say oh we're going to just join another organization that would be important. No. >> Uh yeah I agree with you. I mean if we have nowadays the competitions where the tracking is made no tracking I mean this is like highway. >> Yes. It could be made difficult little by little. I mean not like boom killing the dogs but moving to the certain direction because uh if you move little by little people getting less points but they don't won't be killed. >> Exactly. I mean uh from my point of view when I'm charging I always also tell to competitors or I also if I train new charges I tell to new charges also that we have 100 points that means that if the dog is doing in the tracking 60 points he has 60% good things and 40% bad things. That means that if I give the comments for the person, I always bring up these positive things >> because there was not just negative things but positive things. And if I as a charge give the feedback to the handler in the way that you were so good in this, you were so good on this, you were so good on this, but this was bad and this was bad. Then he knows what to train. and in the next time he probably

will have the result. But if I give such a comment I the biggest thing I need to think is that the person who gets 60 points needs so much more motivation to go on right >> than the person who got 90 points. And if I just kill 60 go home then I kill this person. I mean this is not good for anyone. I mean it sounds so stupid to make something like this. So basically if the field is not so easy and person fails gets 60 and he understands okay I need to fix this and this then next time he will get 80 and next time 90. So basically there there would be some movement but I understand you this is quite difficult. I mean but nowadays it's it's crazy in the way that people have from some competitions the feeling that they are so good and then they are crashing in FMBB and FCI and and it's a little bit like having false picture about the dogs the knowledge the training and in my opinion uh this kind of false picture also little bit kills the sport >> because people don't understand what is correct charging what is correct trials and how it should build up. So this is the problem because uh for example uh I charge a lot of tracking but always when I come to charge to some country very often they ask from me which part you would like to charge. Mhm. >> No, sometimes they say that we would like that you charge the the tracking, but sometimes they asking for for example when I came to charge in America, they ask from me which part you would like to charge and I always take tracking and one of the reasons why I take tracking is that in my opinion uh tracking need to be in the same value as obedience and bite work and I want to take care that if I'm in the tracking field that the people over there get the kind of feedback that they understand where they are because then they can move on. I mean >> I as a charge never can give false points. I mean if the dog tracks 67 I can't give 72 because it was 67 but I can say good things for the person and anyhow give 67 and this is the thing but I think because in tracking very often uh charges saying just the uh value of the leg they say first leg good second very good third so there is just but they don't explain pain so much why there was good or why it was very good why why it was unsatisfactory I mean and this is the part for example in in bite work or obedience we as a charges we say so much more in bite work uh escape exercise we don't say that the escape exercise was good we say that the escape should be a little bit more powerful grip was not so firm uh transition phase should be a little bit more karma. So person understands why it was good but it should be in the same

way in the tracking. Yeah. >> Because then the person understands where to move on and that's why I give the kind of feedback as I give my critics people are liking my critics and and they are liking my critics. A lot of people now in FNBB also they came to me shaked my hand and said that first time in the sports career they understood in the tracking for what they are getting the points >> and this >> which is shame really because this shouldn't be happening >> at the world level. They should like church churches should be helping with the critiques starting from level one and two and so on to where the the trainer much much sooner starts to uh build the picture if they don't have it what needs to change and what is doesn't need to change. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I mean I mean uh we as charges need to evaluate how the talks looks at the moment uh and bring out the good things and bring out the bad things because then the person understands which parts are bad and he knows how to continue training. And uh in tracking it is very often so that the problem is coming out in the tracking not so much because how the dog acted in this moment but how the dog felt before. For example, if I give the critics I say that your dog didn't concentrate so well and he was not so confident in the first 10 steps. So when I look your dog, your dog was uh showing tracking but he was not feeling confident and powerful and that's why the mistake came afterwards because then person knows that if I go home I need to do something with the starts. >> Yes. >> If I just say that the dog went off the track on the 15th step, there can be so much different reasons for this. And if uh the person don't know the reason then he don't know what to train. I mean me as a charge I cannot uh discuss about training methods because I don't know about a dog how they are built up. I can't comment I can't say that uh I am giving you comment you should train this and that because I don't know anything >> and even if you do it would be the wrong thing to do that in a critique. >> Exactly. And and that's what charges never can do. But I must say not just that the dog stepped left but in tracking as there is so much about how the dog feels. >> How you read the dog. Yes. >> Yeah. I need to read the dog and say that this mistake came because of that and so the person understands that this is uh he needs to fix not the secondary thing what happened but the primary thing what brought h out this fault. So this is the idea and as I am so much inside tracking I read the dogs in the tracking so well I just want to charge in the tracking to care that I value the

people time and money so much that I want that if they come to compete they get from me the kind of valuation that they understand what happened and that's why I choose the tracking because I have noticed that among IGP charges there is a lot of charges who love the stadium stadium part they love to charge B and C and then they don't like so much to go to the tracking uh there is a lot of uh uh good charges among IGP who love the tracking who are really good in tracking but there is also charges who don't love tracking so much and that means that uh if there is different kind of charge uh then possibly uh the competitor gets very good feedback in B very good feedback in C but in tracking he gets just the values yeah >> good very good very good good and that's why I always prefer to go for the tracking because I know that I can make it in maximum way I mean I don't care I don't compare myself with other judges that I'm better or doing something different. But I mean uh I want to take out this risk that uh possibly the person gets just the numbers because I have been competing by myself so much and I would say that there have been about 90% starts where I have been got just the points. So it has been good very good good very good good very good but nothing about what what was inside this. So I see a little bit this kind risky and that's why I charge the tracking because in my opinion for people the feedback in tracking is more important because in B and C they see very well that the dog didn't sit or the dog got second command in the house but if the dog is built up more uh in obedience in tracking and there is the handler don't read the dog so well. He needs the kind of feedback >> that someone says that you you understand the dog made this mistake because he was feeling this and that. So this is the thing and now I come to FMPB uh for me uh it was little bit shocking. I mean uh maybe shocking is too black and white word but uh I have been charging IGPFH world championships twice uh and I have been once supervisor so I have been sitting very close and looking all the tracks and I have been charging a lot of different uh countries IGP championships but I have never charged IGP uh world championships. >> This was my first time. >> Mhm. >> And when I have been looking the tracking results, I have been always thinking that there were some problems, there was something this and that, but I have never been so close in IGP uh world championships tracking as I was now. And for me the shocking was that if I compare the average level with the different country championships for example like American championships

uh you didn't have in American championships so rough problems with disobedience tracking then it came out in FMBB you understand >> yes >> so for me the shocking was that in for example in one day uh the tracking field was easier than other days. So all tracks were seeable. It was a little bit like I can't say that it was like a glass but it was very much uh nice field and you could see all the steps by eyes. So I say to other charge that today all the dogs will get results because I mean you can't fail and the percentage of the failure was bigger than other days. So there was 26 dogs talks and nine failed and I was like wow how it can be possible like right how it can be possible how the dogs can fail in such a field I mean how and I would say so that there was little bit different how it looked like but more or less the problem was the conflict so there were dogs who are doing left and right and the surface get little bit drier It was a little bit windy and they made the kind of mistake that they got out. And when they got out, they didn't know what to do, you know, they didn't start to track, but they started to run around to find somehow to track. So basically, uh, inside the model, everything look 100 points nice, left and right, good power, everything as it should be. And now dropping out, he couldn't put the nose down and use the nose to get back. Even the dog was like 70 cm or 1 meter off. So it was very very close and some dogs were moving across the track left and right, left and right and they didn't smell that they were going across the track. So it was a little bit if you look such a dog you understand that the dog is stressed because otherwise he could smell the track. If he going across the track and not smelling the track that means that the dog is stressed. So basically the stress comes always because the conflict. So the conflict could be that they were dropping out of the model and they didn't know what to do. And other thing uh very often in training uh people are helping their dogs with the leashes. When I do seminars I would say that 99% of the people in my seminars uh who are helping dogs with the re they don't understand that they are helping. I am saying that you helping. No, no, no. I don't help. So basically this is the thing. If you help in the in the trainings and then you go to the competition, you can't help the conflict starts from this. For example, I I make example if the dog makes obedience left and right tracking and he makes mistake small mistake and in the training you correct. This correction is a signal. This is the part of the game. Now in the trial, it

gets off the same way, but we are not giving the signal and that's enough to build up the conflict. I mean, >> right, >> dog is getting to the segment of the life he has never been. >> Yes. And it's waiting. It's almost like I can do it, but you need to help me here. >> Yeah. Exactly. This is >> and and this is this is a huge problem. There were also some dogs who just stopped tracking. >> They were going and just stopped. I mean doing nothing, getting commands and just stopping or making false indications showing that they don't want to go or things like this. And this also shows that the dog don't clearly understand what he needs to do in the tracking. So it builds up the stress builds up the stress in the certain moment this co dog just can't leave with the stress so we just quit. So this is like uh I would say that the reason is the same. The reason is the conflict but it's coming from different reason or different point of view. >> Mh. So in my opinion if I want to train the dog so that he won't get to the stress I always praise the dog for tracking for looking for the track for showing activity to find the track and so on and I always give negative signals to the dog about running around doing nothing making passive or whatever. So in black and white I give praise for doing certain things and I give correction for doing wrong things and then I don't praise the left and right but I praise the activity to get to the left and right. You understand? >> Yeah. The the effort >> basically if the dog gets to the conflict he never will be switched off. He always starts to look for the solution. So, so all these failures what there were there was very much different kinds of them but they are always because of the conflicts and the conflict is coming because of the training and sometimes it's so I mean some dogs over there uh the handlers were so surprised how it got like this because everything was at home very fine and so on but it could be so that the dog is waiting longer in the car He will be a little bit stressed because the situation is different. Now you need to walk to the start the long way. It again looking different and now you start to work and if you handle the leash differently than at home. It could be the cracking point. >> Yeah. I mean I always train the dog in the way even from the young ages that in the starts I give always full leash. But the people very often make the starts with short leash and when the dog gets in the nice smooth mood then they give more leash. But this is the thing what never happens in the trials you know. So basically we train again the wrong picture in trials.

The most difficult part for the dog is the start because he needs to go by himself and I'm not stepping behind. >> Yes. That distance between dog and the trainer. >> Yeah. But I mean uh afterwards after 10 meters I start to walk behind the dog. But the first 10 m he's just going going and I'm just standing. So for the dog there there's need to have a good self-confidence to go independently. So basically I would say that the start is the most difficult for the dog because of this because if we walk behind the dog we give the positive feedback that you are correct and it will rise the self-confidence of the dog. So basically if we wait in the car dog is a little bit stressed we make long walk dog is a little bit more stressed and now the competition starts you won't walk behind the dog and this kind of stress totally will destroy the dog >> and so he starts to look nervous he makes some mistakes and he's always in such a state of mind that he can't solve anymore so it is like like domino you know one piece is falling and then every second one is falling again and at the end it will be failed >> because overall I would say that the tracking fields in FMBB uh they were not difficult. I mean okay people are looking at me you are FH charge there is different point of view of of what is difficult but I mean uh I always look the field in in this way that uh I look how the dog is tracking >> and uh I saw there several dogs who were speeding quite strongly and anyhow they didn't lose the track so even in the highest speed they could smell the track and some of them were tracking so that they were during the track moving the head looking on the side and getting again back to the track. So if it would be difficult these kinds of talks wouldn't survive. >> Yeah. So this is the thing what characterize I mean for me always so that if I look the tracking field I think that this is easy or this is difficult but then I see the first talks and then I see how the talks are feeling this field and then I can make opinion this is easy or this is difficult. So in this measure I would say that the field in FMBB and the style how the tracks were made were normal. I mean we could say that they were not easy but they were not also difficult. What do you think about the like like let's say in protection you have the when the helpers are selected and they go through different camps and they've shown some work and they're clearly clearly there is a very solid most of the time selection process for helpers tracking tracking layers seems to be At least from all of my experience, very often uh um the track layers don't have not that

they don't have experience, but they don't have the the collective effort to to be consistent or to know how to really lay the tracks. um like like I I have played with some interesting statistics few times and there's been times when dogs will fail because of a certain track layer. So like like to put it let's say a a trial has four track layers and you know they do flights and then you look at the tracks at the end and you put the percentage of success and failure rate and you can clearly see that there is this one person that the failure rate is dramatically different than than the other track layers. How much effort is put on a on a world level to to make sure that there is some uniformity and that people that lay tracks are are not not just okay I'm just going to kick hard because that's not the main reason of the track layer right but how comparing to the helper work how much effort goes into educating and selecting track layers and how important that is in your opinion. >> Uh first of all I would say that maybe I have been lucky >> good >> but uh in these uh competitions where I have been charging uh the track players have been very professional and very unique. I mean there have been no differences between the two players >> and I have been thinking that it could be so that in world championships and also in different countries their own championships uh track players need to make so many tracks that uh these guys who don't feel so self-confident they don't go. So probably this is the reason I mean the the track players who are chosen they are already so experienced that they know what to do. I mean uh at least as much as I have been >> but I guess sorry to interrupt I guess the just to make it maybe a little more clear it's not the experience and the knowledge of the different track layers but how a track layer like the one track layer would say well the corner just happens to be right here in this whatever a little bit of a problematic area but too bad that's where I'm going to do it and then you have the other track layer that says, "You know what? I'm going to take three more steps and make the corner." You know, this this kind of little details can really make a big difference. >> Yeah, I agree with you. Totally agree with you. Uh because uh uh now we come to the tracking coordinator and I would say so that uh usually when I charge I always want to meet tracking coordinator before the competition and discuss about how the tracks are done and what there is need to be considered. Now in FMBB it was also so that uh before opening we had a meeting with tracking coordinator and everything was

told how me and Jerry want to see the tracking and and it was done perfect in this way. But uh I agree with you that if the track player is not competitor by himself or if he don't have enough experience uh there can come out different things in the field but you just can't explain to them because you don't know that something like this happens. So for example, I always say to the track layers that uh if there is a change of terrain, please go four steps more before you make this or that or if there is a water please make this or that. So I always try to explain but anyhow something can happen but it's not explained. So uh there is I would say that every organizer has a responsibility that he will choose the good track layers and uh there is always a little bit difference in the knowledge. So I think that we can't eliminate the kind of risk that there is certain track player who is not so good. On the other hand, I would say so that uh when I looked FMVB track layers and how the tracks were done, uh these people uh were having different hate, different legs and different weight. So if they are making the tracks anyhow the tracks are looking a little bit different because if you have uh woman making track or men making track if there is double weight or half of the weight >> they always look different but I would say so I always have been training in my group dogs in this way and that I have been saying that you need to train your dog so good that you will be over the luck. Uh so if you take the bad number, you have bad luck or you have bad field or you have uh middle of day more uh hot and so on, you need to train so good that your dog is always over at the luck because if you are in the same level with the luck, you always need you always will be worried about the weather, about the wind, about the back layer, about whatever things. And if your dog is built up so well that he's over at the lock, the difference is how the people are laying the tracks is very small detail. I mean if you make one hour old track like in IP3 it is so easy for dog nose that uh if the person has longer step or shorter step if there is some other things like this uh it doesn't play a role. >> Yeah it's not surprise and the dog is very quick to adapt and ride away. Yeah for sure for sure. If you make the corner within the water so that there is no nothing just the water I would say so that uh it will be a big mistake. I mean uh I have been charging in one competition where in the middle of track was a lot of water and no grass at all. And I said to the competitor that then you can start again after the water >> because basically the dog cannot track

inside the water. He just cannot track inside the water. I mean uh if there is a little bit grass there is always little bit smell. >> Yeah. >> But if there is like 20 cm water nothing more. This is not trackable. I mean this is not trackable at all. And it's always not sportive if we kill some sportsman in this water because this is not the part of our sport. >> Yeah, I really like that >> and I always understand I have been also coordinating a lot of tracks and organizing competitions that you look the all the field and it looks so fine and now whole night it's raining. You just can't do nothing. I mean it's not your fault. You just need to manage somehow. But now it's coming through the charge experience. He needs to understand is this field in certain bone point trackable or not trackable. And I mean if there is a deep water and there is no way no smell then it's not logic that the dog should make nice corner in this water. I mean this is this is the thing >> very true >> because in FH it happens uh more than IGP that during the three hours it rains a lot and there will be certain parts where was no water before and now it will be filled with water and there will be a lot of water and uh if it's not trackable then the dog cannot track it and and that's it. Here is a question for you. Dogs like like I mean of course there is exceptions and so on but but for the most part the IGP dogs they end up getting better and better in tracking as they get older to where like their protection and obedience starts to go away and all of a sudden the tracking and the understanding of tracking starts to go up. And I think a lot of the reasons that I see is one is just as you said like you you know when you are studying and you're teaching tracking and you don't have the experience of competitions too much you always pick the the most pristine beautiful spot and then you go to another trial and another trial and you realize eventually that you never get that beautiful spot and you start to train now accordingly. How uh um but I guess a lot of the tracking experience also comes directly from competing and learning from what can you expect in competition as far as tracking. And that makes you really start to to train a little bit better h and not just pick this beautiful places always for tracking or when there is a problem you always oh I'm going to avoid it or I'm going to stop. And then also just the age by itself somehow, I guess when I'm saying age, it's not the age, but it's just the number of tracks that the the experience that the dogs accumulating. And they end up being better on average than they were when

they were two years old, but they are now seven or eight. and and they finally get it and the competitor starts to kind of feel almost disappointed because they the tracking was really the the part that always kept them behind because they had nice obedience, nice protection, but now the dog is older and they cannot make that obedience and protection. But the tracking all of a sudden excels and I guess that's why a lot of people end up going to FH as an outlet at that age. What what are your thoughts? >> Uh it was so funny. I mean this is uh this is a little bit uh part of the tracking but I think uh differently. I mean I always train the dogs uh so that I train the dogs from the puppy age so that they are trained by fage. Uh in my group uh majority of them never start in FH they just make IGP and that's it because people don't like to be so much in the field to make long tracks and and wait and so on. So they just make IGP. Uh but I trained them for FH and it's it's I I even wouldn't say that I train them for FH but I train them for tracking which has so many different components that if the tracking has so many components people used to call it FH but in my opinion I don't train them for FH but I train the track in the way that whatever can happen in the track because Then the dog who is tracking in IGP and there is a water he also will solve the water. I mean in my group I don't see the problem if there is 10 m water because they always solve it because I have teached them to solve it because uh I I think that they have much more more possibilities in IGP also then but I would say so that uh I always try to get the dog ready in tracking in the same age when they are good in bite work and obedience. And that's exactly what you said. It would feel so sad that if the dog is losing good results because of the tracking and afterwards getting good tracking, he's already old. So I don't want to be in this position. And I would make such an example that uh my Malinoa I competed in FH uh was uh two and a half years old when I won third place in Estonian championships in IGPFH and I went to world championships as a reserve dog and I got the possibility to start in Ukraine and uh my dog was just three years old over there. So during the opening ceremony, he had a boy birthday and got three years old and he was already uh built up for IGPFH in world championships. >> So this is this is the thing that people are little bit I mean a lot of IGP people think in the way that when the dog is older we will jump from IGP3 to FH and then we will make the FH. But I would say so that if I look the FH talks uh if you want to win in the world

championships uh you need to have also power drive and all these things and younger dogs mostly have more power drive and so on. So I would say that if I look IGPFH world championships very often four five years old talks look much better than 8 n year old talks because they have this I mean FH tracking should be charged in the same way like IGP but means that they both need to have power drive and all these parts and if in FH I don't see the power then there is a big minus for this right >> so so I build it up like this. But for the question what you asked why the older dogs look better, I would say that one of the components is that the handlers build up with older dogs less conflicts and it could be so like you said that they are learning more by going to competitions, getting some experience. But it's also so that for example, if the dog gets older, he's maybe not speeding so much. >> So I don't make corrections in the wrong way, wrong timing and whatever. So basically when the dog has already certain knowledge, I will take or people will take all the stupid things away. So the dog will have less conflict. So the dog starts to understand. So basically the dog gets to the age of eight years and then he says wow now I understand what you have been meaning all the time because you have been now taking all these conflict parts away and now I understand why you didn't say it in the first year. So this is like so that's why they look more confident. >> Okay good one. All right, I next one. Talent like when we like I am firm believer that talent has a you know it's something that's given and and there is always even even with human sports this thing about hard work versus talent or the combination or whatever. And I always lean to talent as a priority, like natural given talent. So like in obedience, you you call a dog and you make a recall and the dog flies to you. And it's not because you reward it. And it's not because you do a uh retrieve and you can make five retrieves back to back and the motivation and the desire and the natural talent is there and it's not because of the reward. You put the dog in bark and hold in the blind and you show them what they need to do but then the talent just explodes. There is a talent in tracking just as much as in the other phases. And I think that's what makes the sport really beautiful because we need we need the for the excellent dog. We need the excellent training with excellent raw material of the dog and the talent in all the three phases. If it's not in one phase, we we have a little problem in our sport. When we talk about tracking, how much do you acknowledge and when do you recognize

that the dog is really talented or that dog? It's not that it's not going to be a good tracker, but then some work needs to be done there. and how much it changes motivation versus training system according to the the talent the row ability of the dogs. Uh I would say so that there are certain uh dogs who are having better genes in the way that they are easier to train in the tracking and then there are some other talks who have different kind of uh characteristics and they are very difficult to build up in the tracking. So uh like you said about obedience I know it very well. I mean like my own Molly when I when was training the send out I just put the pillow to the end of the field once in the spring and that's it. I mean I I never shouldn't put it there because he was just running always over there with full speed. So uh this is the different type of talks and I would say so that uh one of the things what we need to understand is if we take the IGP uh we have the rules for sure but we always have the history and we always need to think why we have this sport. Mhm. >> So when the sutsun came up when all this history started the tracking had a certain meaning for the breeding because in obedience and in bite work you can't see these characteristics what you see in tracking. So basically if we would eliminate from IGP the tracking part uh I would say that we would see in five or 10 years a lot of these kind of talks what we basically don't want to see because in tracking the dog needs to concentrate in the same way for a long time and we don't have this in B and C >> correct >> and uh This long concentration will change the stress level and state of mind of the dog and the dog needs somehow to solve it. So if we take for example bite work uh always the dog gets the bite it little bit makes the break. I mean he can get there is uh going from one drive to another drive making obedience. So it's a little bit like even it's wrong one and it's physically very difficult for the dogs but it has so that your brains are not running in the same mood all the time. In obedience it's also it's it's building up for the dogs a lot of stress because there is no ball there is nothing during the obedience but anyhow they are divided to exercises. So the dog explodes then he can calm down you can say good again explodes and so on. But in tracking he needs to work by himself getting no brace nothing back and this is showing the certain kind of characteristics from the dog. So I would say so that if we make the competitions where we eliminate the tracking because we make it too easy we make it just in the way that every dog gets to the

stadium. You know, you understand what I mean >> that every dog gets the result in the tracking then we basically uh going against the main idea why the suits was done. I mean uh we eliminate certain genes which have the same kind of importance. >> Oh, we totally going to change the makeup of the dogs 100% just as you said within five years. >> Yeah. So I would say so that uh some dogs have advantage in bite work other dogs have advantage in the tracking and other dogs have advantage in the obedience. In the same way I would say that if we are looking to handlers we have certain top level handlers >> who are good in everything but then we have handlers who are good in obedience and handlers who are good in bite work and handlers who are good in in in uh tracking. So basically like you said this is the beauty of our sport. It's a little bit so that uh if you get 100 100 points in C but 85 in B and 70 in tracking you never win and there is not much dogs and handlers who get 100 points in every discipline. So uh so this is this is about I mean every dog has certain abilities which are good either in B I C or A I tracking and uh I would say that if we have very much strong dog in pipe work tracking is so easy that uh you can always get your 95 in tracking if the dog is very good for the tracking. but don't have the kind of power, don't have the kind of parts what we need in C. There is very difficult to get over 90 points for city talk in C. >> So I would say that because of the tracking is so much easier for the talks uh if you train it on the proper way, it's not playing so big role after all. uh how how uh high you get in the body because if we look the world championships uh very often it's so that you need to get excellent in the tracking and then B and C are the parts what will decide which place you get. Uh but very often it's so if you lose in the tracking 10 to 15 points you never get them back in obedience or never get them back in in bite work. So it's a little bit the kind of thing that on one side the tracking is easier because different kind of dogs can make it but if you lose in the tracking then it's very crucial because you can't win it back in B and C. So it's a little bit like this. uh and I would say so that in tracking there are certain kind of talks uh who are extremely difficult to build up for the tracking and they always get less points or sometimes fail and so on but uh if you build them correctly up they never fail but they never get high points. Uh but the number of these talks are not too big. On the other side, we have these talks because we have breeded uh too long to hectic talks and to

explosive dogs and so on because we laughed in B and C that the dogs are quick boom boom. Yes. And if we breed these dogs, these dogs are not good with the tracking. So basically when we eliminated the tracking because we made tracking so easy. We made two bad things. All the knowhow was disappearing and bad kind of talks came in because of the breeding because the qualifier of the tracking was out. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Because now I like very much how the FCI takes the IGP rules. Uh I have been visiting every year this FCI charges trainings and I like how the power, how the drive, how the balance all these things are now in the rules. I mean nowadays uh we try to value it so much more. the more balanced dog than the heptic ones and fast ones who are a little bit all the time under pressure and it is in the obedience. It's in the bite work and it's the same in the tracking and that's why for example now in the rules it's written primary things and secondary things and uh it is not new thing also with older rules in every charge training it was told that these are more important than other things but uh a lot of charges didn't quite understand the point and now it's written black and white these are primary things And these are secondary things. For example, if we speak about tracking uh uh I never go uh if the dog shows the article, I never go next to the dog >> as a judge. >> Sorry. >> As a judge. Yeah. >> Yeah. I never go close to the ch to the dog. And the reason is that if there is a very high grass, then I need to go. But if there is a blackground like it was in FMBB and I'm 10 m off, I see the power, I see the balance, I see the self-confidence, I see how the dog looks with the handler, I see the bonds, I see like all these primary things. >> Yeah. And if the article is little bit against the leg, this is so small thing because if the article is under the dog, I see it as well from the 10 m distance. If the hander puts the hand under the dog, I don't need to be beside because of this. So that's the reason why I don't go there because in my opinion if I go there I make a little bit pressure for the dog and then I I should go with every dog over there because otherwise it's not equal right >> but why I go to some dogs and not to other dogs so I don't do this because I see all these primary elements from the distance I don't need to run to the dog and and >> yeah just like the same like in the bark and hold you You don't need to stick your head between the dog and the helper, right? You >> allow that space. >> You see the dog from the distance. I mean, you feel how the dog is feeling. This is a little bit the feeling thing.

This is not the technical thing but but what about the feeling and all these feeling things have been coming more important nowadays in IGP because we want to see in bite work also that the dog is uh making the kind of pressure and he's really fighting with the helper and so on but this is not technical thing this is about feeling thing and feeling things you can see also from the distance you don't need to be in the middle of dog and helper and in the tracking I would say so that if I charge the tracking I have been always saying that uh I am kind of feeling what the dog is feeling I mean I I feel is the dog feeling self-confident not self-confident feeling powerful not powerful and for me it's no idea to be closer because I can feel it in the same distance because now it's in the rules I can't go closer than 10 m so I must stay 10 m and I see it so clearly from there and and nowadays Is it so good? Because it's written down primary secondary. Early it was so that the dog was showing the article making perfect everything was perfect and then the handler came and the dog just moved the head and some charges took one point off to moved again the head took second point off and now you think that the dog was perfect and another dog who is uh feeling bad and sad who is uh slow who is not powerful but don't turn the head it can't be so that I give more points for this talk because then I praise technically built up weak talk not the strong talk what we would like to see and strong talk don't mean just that the dog is by the nature strong but it also means that the dog is strong in the exercises that it's built so that the dog feels strong and that what we need to praise and this is the thing in the rules now black and white that we have primary things and secondary things and primary things bring up these more important things. >> Right. Right. I will let me let's stay a little bit on the articles cuz it's a definitely a topic that um a lot of people me included you know like we there is always certain confusion. Um I have chosen to have a certain picture with my dog. other trainers have a different picture and including the the whole training about the articles and where I'm going with this is like you know how sometimes um the dogs going to come to the article it will be nice article but they will be so fixated and you know this is just overtrained to to stay focused even sometimes they will kind of peck like a bird on the article because they're expecting food. How how do you see this kind of intensity? And then of course you have the other ones that they're almost possessive like the the handler

cannot take the article without getting tagged. And then you have a dog that just lays down and opens their mouth and it's like okay this is like a checkpoint there is nothing else to do. How do you see the different article indication and what is in your eyes the optimal and you also sometimes during the competition I don't know if it was having a drink or when but but you mentioned something that uh uh it really kind of you saw the difference in the FH dogs indicating and the IGP and a lot of the IGP dogs doing it for like a different reason almost. >> Yes. Uh first of all uh I don't want that people understand me wrong. I mean in FMBB there were uh a lot of talks built up nicely and there were dogs who got excellent doing very very nice work. So if I speak about mistakes these mistakes are always about the second part who had more mistakes. So it it doesn't mean that all dogs are built up somehow wrong. This is what I don't mean. I mean correct. We had in FNBB a nice percentage of very nicely built up dogs. But if I take the average how the average looked like I would say that in IGPFH world championships I saw better bonds before between the handler and the dog in the articles. Uh in uh FMBB uh there was more seeable with some dogs that they were a little bit like machines. M >> they showed the article in certain way but they were not happy about showing this article to the handler and handler also didn't feel the kind of bond with the dog that he is happy that the dog shoot the article because for example in uh in FCI uh FH uh a lot of talks showing the article some of them showing more strong, some of them showing not so strong or self-confident, but mostly they were showing so that they shoot the article. And when they shoot the article, the tail was a little bit moving. He was happy. He wound the article. He was a little bit looking where the handler is coming. When the handler was coming closer, he was more happy about that the handler is coming. Handler was very happy that the dog showed. So when he praised the dog, you saw that it's coming from the heart that he really loves his dog and >> you kind of you see some kind of completion at the article, right? >> Exactly. Yeah. >> So I think that in IGPFH uh this is coming because these people are training tracking so much more. So uh there built up more connection between the dog and the handler. I I think that this is something like this that they are going to the field. They're making long tracks. It's a little bit like battle. You have your horse and you are going with your horse to the battle and you are fighting together. It's a little bit more like

this. But in in uh IGP it's more about that I train you these tricks in tracking. you need to make these tricks then I'm happy. It's not about that we are doing the tracking together. >> So it could be like this I it's difficult to say but the thing what you asked about uh some dogs are pointing the article with nose or they are very much uh how to say it they are in the kind of pressure that they are not moving they are just showing they are like statues showing the article. uh I would say that this is very much risky thing because if you take the nature of the talk by the nature not the single dog would not like to be in the article this way. I mean why it should be that means that if you train the dog this way anyhow you give some kind of pressure to the dog or some feedback or control that he looks like this. Yeah. >> And then you have very sharp border falling to the side that the dog looks under pressure. You understand? you you need to be very much uh good in this so that the dog looks precisely perfect but don't look stressed because when I look back in FMBB uh it's so funny you can see the dog is focusing on the article he's very much like a statue don't move he just focus and now the handler coming closer and all the time the airs a little bit down. And when the handler is coming, you can see how the ears are moving and some of them even moving more down. That means that somehow this talk don't like that the handler game. We can say that the dog was the dog was focusing better and so on and that's why the ears are like this. But if you look the body language of the dog, you see that the dog is not feeling so good. So I can't say that the handler has been kicking the dog or making bad things >> but uh the dog is trained so that the dog don't feel comfortable and that's why he looks a little bit sad and under pressure and if I look such talk always the dog if he has little bit pressure or little bit sad this dog never looks powerful and this dog never looks balanced And this dog never looks self-confident. So I cannot say that the dog is having much pressure in the article. But I can say that he should feel better in the articles. So this is a little bit risky in the way if you train it very perfect. Uh there is no problems >> but there is a huge risk that the dog will look sad in the articles. I mean the yeah sad is the one side and then the other side is this discipline of no you cannot look anywhere else. You have to like a almost like a bird dog like a pointer and you have to >> Yeah. But >> that does not bring you any extra points. >> Exactly. No. No way. >> People think that that brings extra

points for some reason. >> No. I mean uh nowadays by the rules what we have uh it's more or less that you will lose points with this >> right >> because the dog looks stressed and you lose points because of this because now it's written in the rules that the dog can look back to the handler wave with the tail and move the head and so on. This is no mistake. So basically if the dog looks like this that he's looking at the handler and handler is coming and dog is happy that the handler is coming it's always very very nice. I mean if the dog moves the head back and in the same time he moves also the body then it's mistake but if the body stays and just the head is moving it's no mistake. Yeah, I mean the tracking should be understood so that the idea of the tracking is the finding of the articles. The dog is going to track to find the articles. This is like the purpose of the tracking. So basically if the dog finds the article for the handler, both should be happy. Dog is happy that they found and handler is happy that dog found the article. >> Mission accomplished. >> Yeah. If the dog finds the article and he needs to make obedience during this thing then we praise not the finding the article but we are praising the obedience that the dog is doing. >> Yeah. And then we come to this position that in certain moment the dog starts to love the tracking more and he won't show the last article >> because he don't like the articles he likes tracking. >> There is so much interesting stuff we're talking about. But I know I know everybody that it's into tracking would really like this podcast. Let me let me ask you still on the articles. I've been personally curious cuz I haven't seen it in a long time. Is a the retrieving articles. Have you seen this lately? Is it still acceptable? Like I remember back in the '9s there were some top dogs that were doing it and they were doing very good job with it. It's just a little bit trickier. How do you judge it? But in some ways it gives a dog some kind of break and refocus and like re-engage and then restart. But tell tell me about this this kind of >> now in FCI uh IGFH world championships there was one dog who was retrieving >> so it's still okay >> uh yeah yeah it's okay but I would say so that uh I never ever would train this >> Mhm. Because showing the article in the normal way uh there is so so much less details inside than bringing the article. There is so much more details and if the dog makes mistakes in these details uh you lose very easy points. I mean showing the article uh you can lay down, you can sit, you can stand. I mean there is a lot of different ways uh and when

you make the start you always beside the dog so the dog you can always control with the leash you can always I mean it gives you a little bit more possibilities to have some conversation with the dog if the dog brings the article uh it's very much clean I mean you don't have possibility to much conversation with the dog >> so so it's it's little bit uh complicated it to train it and if the dog retrieves the article uh you won't get any bonus for this. I mean of course you just spend more time and you have more possibilities to fail. Uh concerning chewing articles, uh I was charging in this FCIGPFH uh the winner of world championships who got 100 points from me and 100 points from other other charts such uh I would say so that this track of this lady and this German Shepherd was the best track I will see until I die. Because I said it also to this uh winner that that this track was so perfect. That track cannot be better. That means that someday I can see similar kind of track. >> But I never can see anything better because nothing can be better. And you know this talk was showing all the articles standing. Mostly dogs are showing lay down and sometimes they are a little bit feeling not so good and they are standing but this talk was showing all the articles standing and the interesting thing was that he was showing this standing so that the article was in every article exactly in the same position. It was exactly between the legs and in the same line. I mean perfectly in the same way. And uh this is very interesting because mostly if you uh train the dog to lay down in the articles, it's a little bit easier because uh >> there's more stability. >> Yeah, there is not much uh space. I mean if the article is between legs uh it can't be left and right and it can't be on the chest. So for the dog there is a very limited box where the article can be but if the dog stands the box is much more open. So it's not so easy to train the dog >> how you explain to the dog that the article should be precisely at this spot. So it's I would say it's more difficult but it was so perfectly built up that it was exactly in the same spot in every article. So it was like crazy to see. I mean you are looking and it's exactly like by millimeter in the same spot. So I would say that if the dog is springing it is difficult to build up but it could be same way all these centimeters and millimeters nicely built up >> but it's more difficult. It's the same laying down it's easier standing it's more difficult. I guess the like if I not that I would ever who knows maybe I will but the the retrieving articles I guess one

kind of benefit that I could see is that uh the dog can grab it and come to you and it's almost like like allowing the dog to kind of shake it off and it's like okay now we go for round too there is that more of a freedom in between during the article versus any other indication you know but I don't know how how good that could be >> what about the dogs that sit do do you see any advantage of that or or >> no no but concerning this retrieving I would say so that uh if the dog is uh tracking and showing the article laying down on the article He still will be in the same mood or state of mind. >> Mhm. >> If he's retrieving and shaking like you told, he will lose this state of mind because he will be shaking off like I said. And now the problem is that in the start you you're making the start with short leash and you can little bit adjust the mood. But if the dog is retrieving, you can't make the start with the short leash because it use le and that means that the dog need to find out by himself the correct state of mind and that's that's complicated because bringing the article the dog will lose the correct state of mind and now he needs to find it by himself like at the moment. So that that what makes it more complicated. If it all lays down, he stays in the starting spot. You can have the short leash and he's more or less in the same state of mind what he was before showing the article. So that's why it's easier. Uh another thing uh as a mistake uh what I see uh in the competitions I didn't see so much it in this world championships in FnBB but I see it very oftenly is that the dog when he's starting from the article should take the first steps also with the same power like all the other track. Uh there are some talks who speeding over the first 10 steps or five steps not taking them >> right >> and then there are some talks who are pointing with the nose these steps but they are not taking them deeply in the way that you can see that they are taking them. So I would say so that uh uh I admire always competitors who have managed to train this part for the dogs because it's not so easy to train and if I compare these dogs should get more points than the dogs who don't make it because if you don't take all steps you should lose some points and it is the same with the corner. Uh people are speaking so much about speeding after the corner. Uh dog who speeding after the corner always gets some minus. >> This is very logical. But in like in FMBB I saw several or even a lot of talks who were doing very precise corner but they were not showing the power in the corner. You understand the same thing like in the start that means that

the dog makes the turn automatically. >> Yeah, >> these are not big minuses. But if you want 100 points and the dog makes both uh starts from the article uh so that he don't take first three steps, you will lose one point or one and a half. And if in the turns the turns automatic and he won't take whole steps and everything rest is very nice. You probably will get 97 or 98 but never hundreds. And this is the thing. I mean you don't lose much but there are people who train these things and I admire that people have done it so perfectly as it should look like by the rules that uh there should be difference in the points between these two kind of dogs. Yeah, I how how difficult it is to recognize dog that is trained. I mean we we know unfortunately or or whatever that there is systems for tracking that basically start with okay here is the start and there is pressure and it's basically learning to avoid pressure by tracking all along. I don't need to explain it. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. How difficult for you it is to to see that and when the dog is tracking and and besides let's say there is a problem on the track and the dog cannot solve it and then it really crumbles and fails apart. But let's say the dog really makes the track, but you see it that it's a the reason behind it it's it's a it has changed. How how do you do you like what do you do with that and how do you see that and how do you recognize that if you can even >> uh I would say so that uh word pressure this is a little bit tricky uh because >> I mean I'm saying pressure not to say other words >> yeah I yeah but the thing what I want to explain is that uh if you use uh force in the tracking So that you put the dog to track in the way that he must to track and the dog is tracking because he's afraid uh and you make pressure. >> Yeah. It's all >> uh such talks if they are clearly working this way uh you can see it from the body language of the dogs. But now we go to the next step. If you have been doing it little better, the dog looks uh little bit under pressure. But some dogs are getting the pressure from the tracking, you know, some dogs who are tracking uh and don't feel so confident. >> Yeah, good point. >> But they start to look also under pressure even they are never trained with the pressure. >> Absolutely. So I would say so that uh if I charge and I see this dog under certain pressure and the pressure is not so big that I could say that the dog is trained wrong. I always give minus because I don't care does the dog take the pressure by himself or it is is the dog is trained by the pressure. Mhm. >> Because on both ways the dog is not

looking like the dog should look like because dog should look like self-confident and powerful. If the dog is tracking and building up the pressure by himself looking not so comfortable and looking not so powerful then this is a mistake. So basically uh I as a charge cannot say to the handler that you have trained the dog wrongly because I see the pressure because sometimes the pressure is coming from the dog side and that means that usually if I see such a dog I say in the comments that the dog was working under the pressure and I cannot say it's coming from this side or other side, but the dog shouldn't look like this. So, it makes you this minus or that minus or whatever and you need to get the dog tracking more self-confident and more free. And if the people who have been using the pressure they understand very well that I pointed out that this thing so they need to reorientate in the training or if the people have been training the dog nicely >> and the dog is looking stressed they have idea what they should do at home they can think about this why the dog is looking stressed but this is this is I mean in certain level you can't you you as a charge cannot see the difference >> right >> but if the dog is very much under stress or put under stress I have seen these dogs also in world championships not in FMBB but in other world championships and uh I have seen some of these dogs and they are exactly like they are making mistake then they start to make a lot of different things you feel that they are shake they cannot do anything then you see that these dogs because uh if the stress is so big then the dog starts to make mistakes because his head cannot take so much the pressure. So he goes goes goes the pressure will be too high. He makes small mistake and then you see how the dog looks scared. So in this situation this is a big mistake. I mean the dog is uh trained not in a way we would like to see and it brings at least one degree down maybe even more. >> I see. Okay. Yeah. Makes sense. Makes sense. Let's talk about the tail. In obedience, you know, in obedience is it's becoming almost almost like a um I mean it's it's sad, but I I see it happening like really see it happening. People start to breed and people start to buy puppies that have that genetic kind of like a piggy tail just so they can show that when the dog does obedience, the tail is up and the dog is emotionally in a in a good place in their head. In tracking, we have dogs that can do tail up or dogs that cannot physically do tail down because it's genetically like that. And then you have a tail that is very comfortably

hanging low and of course a tail that is starting to get tucked towards the body that certainly shows something. I when I have these conversations with different people, I always bring that analogy of chess players. You will have a different people that are very good at the game. And because it's a mental game, they their bodies do things in order to maintain that mental state. So you you know you have a chess player that makes a move and then paces around and paces around and it cannot stop cuz if you stop them their brain is not going to function right. And then you have a different player that makes a move and it stays like a steel like a like a crane ready to get a bird and nothing moves. Where do you see the body language and specifically the way the dogs carry their tail during tracking and and of course the the tail by itself shouldn't be the only indicator of what we see but but tell me a little bit about this because I know this is another big conversation. I mean uh the tails and years this is the funniest part in the tracking. I mean uh as long as I have been in FCI charge trainings, I have been like 20 years or 15 years over there. They always saying that you shouldn't look tail and ears in the tracking. They always say and I always laugh about this because if we have charges who don't see the whole body language >> and they just see ears and tails and you say that you can't look the air and tails what they will look then I mean if you don't have the skill to read the body and you take the tail and and ears off then what there will be I mean for me it's so funny Because in my logic, as much as I read dogs, tails and ears, okay, if the tail is totally under the bar body and so on, it's sometimes tells a little bit more, but mostly tails and ears tell very little. I mean, you need to see the whole body language. And probably isn't it most like what is in my opinion the most telling about the mental state is how the dog moves on the track. Ah I would say concerning the tail by the way I have at home two malas uh they both have been competing. One is mine and another is my wife. My wife is also IGP charge and I've been competing and so on and uh my wife uh talk has been having all the time in tail down I mean tracking all the time in tail down and we have never used any pressure we have never even we we have not made so much corrections because this talk was so much about food and tracking and so on but by the nature the tail is totally down and this is like this I mean the the tail is not I mean if I look the dog in the tracking uh it's very much difficult to explain I mean if you ask about how the dog moves

or how the dog these are all technical things and in my opinion the problem of our sport is that if you want to be good charge you need to read the dog the body language You can't uh study to be charged by reading the technical parts. So that the tails are so the head is so the legs are moving so and so and so because it's not possible. I mean if I charge the dog I feel the dog in the way. If I see the dog for example tracking I feel how the dog is feeling. I mean it's not about the steps. It's not about the head. It's not about I I see the dog and I I see how the dog is feeling and uh I even don't look the tail or the ears because uh very often it's so that I see so good concentration and the dog makes so powerful tracking and it looks so nice and then I look wow your tail is totally down and your ears are totally low. So I look at like secondary thing I look wow you have like this because I it doesn't matter for me I look the dog tracking and I put down powerful nice this and this and then I laugh a little bit about ah okay these are looking like like so so I would say that uh that uh you need to see and feel how the dog looks like like totally I mean >> this is this is I If you meet someone in the street uh and the person is smiling to you doesn't mean that the person is happy. >> Right. Very true. >> I mean in America I have seen also a lot of people who are always smiling but you never know they are happy or not happy. >> Yeah. So this is this is the thing. I mean uh we can also make a lot of different faces but you need to feel what this person is feeling. I have I have been just telling it that because I work in different business everyday life and I have been saying to people that >> yeah you do some cooking or something. >> I I uh I make professional kitchens like hotels and restaurants. They make auto cut planning and and then equip it with kitchen equipment and make training and so on. But I have been also working as a cook. So So I know. >> So you're making some good steaks in one video. >> Yeah, I make good steaks. I have at home this kamatada show you know and I make chicken and and and all these things very nice. But the thing what I'm telling also at work is that for me it's very much uncomfortable to sit with people behind the desk because I read the body language so well. I mean because of talk training. I see when the person is lying. I see when the person is feeling sad but showing out that everything is okay. And sometimes it's not so good if you read so much the people. I mean sometimes it's better if you get this picture as they would like to show to you. >> Not that you will get I don't want to be

the psychologist. I just want to be >> whatever business partner but because of reading the talks I also read the people all the time and I can't handle this in the way I just automatically reading this and this is about the dogs. I would say so that we have so good charges who read the dog so well and I always look them charging and explaining and I always looking so that if this person is giving 95 in the bite work how many people in the stadium are who understood why it was 95 not 96 >> because I know that this person is reading so well the body language but as the charge he cannot explain it to the people who don't read it so well so this is the problem in our sport and this is the situation when the audience starts to say that this charge is giving more points to whatever Germans or Americans or whatever because uh uh they don't understand why the points are looking like this >> and and Uh and I would say so that if you are charging and you are in the stadium in the field uh you feel the dog so much better than from the side. If you are on the audience, you never feel the dog in the same way. And so, uh, for example, now in FMBP, uh, I had a one situation a little bit because we didn't have one charge. He got ill. So, it was so that I was charging the tracking and then I was charging all bite work in finals and most of the obedience in the finals. >> Yeah. >> So, I was not charging s just six dogs obedience. Otherwise I would charge spoof P and C in stadium and as I was not charging these six talks obedience. I was sitting in the audience and uh it felt so different, you know, it felt so different because I was just doing six talks in the stadium and it felt so much different and now going to the side it felt so much different again because you are a little bit uh not with the dog because if you are charging you're always moving with the dog you see the correct point of view so that you feel the dog better. If you're far away, the angle is not correct. You don't feel the dog same way. And this is the thing what is very much difficult to explain to the people because they don't have this feeling. So this is the difficulty and it's the same in the tracking because in tracking the feeling part is even so much more important from the point of training and from the point of charging that uh I as a charge I think that when I charge I need to explain this part also to the handler like I told in the beginning but I'm never so sure how much they really understand it Because if they have been training their dogs more obedience and not so much dog reading, then all the info what I give about dog reading maybe

don't click in their head because they don't have the touch in this way. I I you know like I always there is times when the like the all the judges camps when they're organized sometimes they get recorded or live streamed to where almost anybody can watch and sometimes we rely on whomever is the delegate to come to the country and give us the explanation and I think it today With the technology that we have, I think it would be very cool for any competitor that wants to actually just be a fly on the wall and just participate but listen to the presentations and uh you know the tendencies during those meetings like firsthand instead of a a delegate coming back home then telling it to the breed club, then the breed club to the regional director and eventually some things get missed and I I think that that will speed up and maintain a good education in the the people that actually train dogs. What do you think? >> It's very complicated. Yeah, >> I mean uh it's uh it's very much complicated because it has so much different tasks. I mean uh if we speak about charge training uh like FCI makes the charge training uh in my opinion if the charge training is online it's always very much wise if also more people see it if all the competitors see it and so on because then we have very much more uh common point of view or we understand maybe more the same things in the same way but on the same time I would say that if I look the charge trainings uh if it's made theoretically in the room and there is 100 charges and this theory is given there uh I wouldn't be very much surprised that all the 100 charges are not getting the same point of view because people have different understanding people have different experience different have people have different everyday practice and so on. So they because of this level they understand the message little bit differently. >> Yeah. >> And if we now make it online it is even more difficult because sitting in the room you get it directly in the online you will lose even more. That means that in this way people sitting online >> they think that they get 100%. But they maybe get it little bit in the mirror in the way that they don't understand everything correctly. So at the moment it's so that the FCI utility commission has been planning that they start to make every year the practical charge training and that means it was now done for the different uh pre clubs uh in the march. So that the number of charges was not too big but about 15 or 20 people and they were in the stadium they were charging practically one by one the talks and then discussing about what they were seeing. >> Mhm.

>> And I would say so that if we want to rise the the level of charges this is very good way. I mean this is how it should be done because then we see the same talk and we can have the conversation and maybe people will see it then differently. It is so much better than theoretical training like so so much better. Yeah. But such such training if we make it in online then we even lose more than making the theoretical training because through online you don't see the dog in the same way as people on the on the stadium. So it's a little bit like I I totally agree with you that uh concerning FC FCI utility commission charge trainings if we could get more unique package out it would develop technology >> not not Yeah exactly kind of like that not not the whole the you know not the whole four days but a condensed version of a message that that is already discussed and decided right something like this >> but it's like I said now it's not so black and white uh it's so that uh >> in the beginning I was also very much enthusiastic that it should be done this and this and this and that and now I have been 20 years in this utilities or commission getting deeper and deeper in and then you start to understand that everything is not so black and white that There is little bit complicated parts. If you're outside, you don't understand why they are doing this like this. But if you're inside, then you start to think that there is not so good uh possibility how to make it. >> Yeah. Yeah. No. >> So it's it's it's now moving very much to the right direction, I would say. >> I agree. I agree. And and uh the thing what what in my opinion is very very good is that now in charge trainings theoretical parts Harry has been doing the bite work >> every time and I like this because he makes the same structure and the same message all the time. So then it works well. If there are always different person, they have little bit different point of view and it's so much more difficult to understand what is the direction. If the same person is making this, it's so much easier to understand. So this is so good and now it's so that uh the the practical training for the charges will be done every year. This is so good thing. So I think that this is moving to to really nice direction. In the last meeting there was also a discussion that uh uh we won't make two charges in FCI like it's an FMBB. >> Uh-huh. You will or you will not >> will not because it won't give anything. But uh we probably will try from the next year little bit the same system like WSOW has that there will be assistant charge in the so there is two charges and

second one is assistant charge and the assistant charge is the one who will be charging next year. >> Mhm. So in this way >> so but when when the assistant judge is assisting they they have no influence in the points or do they >> it it lead need to be clarified a little bit more specific how it works but the idea was that if you charge uh in world championships there is five days you will be very much tired and if you as a charge will miss something or you will make mistakes. Yes, >> the assistant charge can say it. You didn't see this, so you didn't see that. >> Then in this basics, the charging should be also more uh bulletproof in the way that less mistakes will be there. And on the other hand, >> yeah. No, this is very true. This is kind of where I always I I like the idea of two judges because of that because human mind sometimes wanders off even if it's not tired it's just our brain can wander off >> and there is always the discussion between well the two judges should stay in different corners and never talk and and I don't think that's a good idea. I think ultimately just as you said like hey did you see that dog didn't even make the sit >> you know like so communication between the judges and I mean I guess if it's not two judges and there is an assistant as long as the assistant can can say hey you there was something here that >> I I need to bring your attention to that just happen you know. >> Yeah. And the idea was that they can discuss and this assistants will be charging next year championships >> and maintain the direction. >> Yeah. then the direction and line will be more the same and then there will be again assistant and and I think that this could work well but this was just decided in the last meeting and it's a little bit the thing what will be solved out how it will look like and so on because it just came out in the last meeting but I think that as idea is it this is very good idea I mean it could change the charging to more consistent way. >> Yes, we cannot have one year we're focusing on this in the judging and the next year is very different. We need to have a consistent progression. That's for sure. >> Yeah. >> And also >> I want to Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. >> It also could take out some mistakes for example like like we discussed. So this way I I just see all positive things in this and if it will come like this out I think it's very nice step forward. I like it. I I want to bring you back to one tracking or question that I I almost was going to forget and this is the tracking with open mouth like how much like how how do you judge it? Let's say you have a dog that um

I mean it clearly it's tracking and it's not walking as you you know how you describe that some dogs just kind of they're going but they're not tracking. It's tracking but the mouth is kind of slightly open almost like they're taking scent which dogs also can do through the mouth. And uh what what how how is it a faulty and how big of a faulty it is if the dog tracks with open mouth? >> It's not good question. >> I have good one. Huh? >> You know why it's not good? Because I I start again speaking about body language. >> This is like ears and tails, you know. Uh >> I mean some judges are very very explicit. And it's like no that's not intensive enough. >> Uh but I I I again come to back this is the same like tails and ears. Uh I make one example maybe that will explain it better. Uh this lady who got 100 points from me and Sus in the FCH. Uh this talk was starting the tracking with such a power that it was like boom boom boom boom every track like like with full power. And in Slovakia it was made so that uh all the tracks were quite long. It was made with about 60 70 cm steps. So quite long steps and 1,800 steps. So they were quite long. Yeah. So I was thinking this is looking so so nice but let's see how it looking on the last leg or if it's turning the last turn against the wind. >> Mhm. And then the last leg will be against the wind because dog is tired. And how it's possible that the dog can look uh make the same power and intensity because he had lost so much power over in the first part, but the dog was doing exactly the power in the last turns against the wind and so on. Everything looked the same. So I would say so that concerning the open mouth uh if the talk is powerful is he making very nice concentration tracking and so on. The mouth is the same thing like tail and ears because the mouth is not important. Important is what the body language is showing. If the dog is making all components what we want to see in the tracking then it need to be getting excellent. No difference how the mouth is looking like. But uh mostly the dogs are opening the mouth when they will be tired and mostly then the concentration gets not so good and mostly the tracking is not so powerful. So the whole picture is not anymore excellent by let's say good or something and very often in this situation they start to skip some steps and because of this they start to make some controlling. So so uh I cannot say that these minuses are coming because of the open mouth but there is a lot of things also what is missing. >> Mhm. Yeah. And another thing what I would also like to bring out uh especially in FH championships I have

been telling this in this IGB FMB it was uh not so so more so much seeable but uh if we take the rules by the rules the dog can make a small control if the dog is not leaving the track then it is not mistake if the dog is tracking he's on the back turns the head makes control and go on then it's not calculated as mistake. >> Mhm. Mhm. >> But again it's not so black and white. I mean uh if the dog makes the control and I see clearly that there are the steps and I see that the dog don't feel so safe and that's why he makes this control. They knit this mistake because he made the control because he was not feeling so good or he was stressed about the leg and so he made the control. Another dog who is showing so good power. He just need to make the check because he sees that there is rabbit or someone been going. He just need to look okay. This is okay. I'm the king. This is my castle. I need to take care of my castle. But the dog is looking differently then and this is the thing the the mistake is not the taking the control but the mistake is why the dog is making the control. So if the tracking field is very much like a class and there is a lot of uh crossing animal tracks or whatever but there is also very clear uh track of the person or track layer. If the dog is all the time checking the animal tracks crossing, I would say that this dog is not so self-confident in the tracking. Otherwise he would go by the main track not after every three steps check the crossing check the crossing check the crossing because it shows that he's not so self-conscious. that we're going to put uh uh as a link for for people to because there is like a very cool library. I mean, you're clearly extremely passionate about this. you're coming to the states like in a week giving two workshops here and I don't know where else you're going but uh I I highly recommend for anybody that's interested in tracking to to come and and uh you know experience and maybe take something from you. My kind of last question when you do tracking seminars and workshops, what are the top two things that it seems like you you almost have to start talking about those things even before you see the dogs because you kind of know that they stand out always. >> Uh I answer a little bit longer now. Sure. >> First of all, uh uh I thank you for all these warm words what you said about me and and my concept and so on and web page. Uh second thing is that uh I don't make too many seminars. If you say that I make a lot of seminars, it's not exactly correct. And the reason is that uh I have the same time frame for

charging and for seminars. So like this year I have more charging. I I cannot make so much seminars because I am out of time and as as talk training and seminars and charging this is not the business for me. This is like a hobby. That means that I like to keep it this way that it's not eating my family time, my personal time and so on. So if I have more charging, I make less seminars. If I have less uh charging, I can make more seminars. This is a little bit divided like this. So if people are asking can you come and I say that I am really full booked that means that I don't have continuously seminars but I have like this year I have uh uh this FNBB charging I have FCI and in the August I will charge the Roth championships both ICP and FH that means that I'm again one week off so it takes a lot of time. uh concerning what I do in seminars uh mostly uh as much as I have been in other people's seminars tracking seminar is a little bit complicated for the audience because very often uh the the person who is training going with the dog and handler to the field you on the side you don't see much you don't I mean the messaging is not so good >> so I always say to people who participating my seminar that there is not big difference you come with the dog or you come without dog because uh I always aim so that I don't want to give the food to you but I don't I want to give the tool for you that you can make the food >> teach you how to cook yeah >> yeah then you don't be hungry in the future so basically if someone comes with his talk and he has certain problem. I just don't f want to fix this problem but I want to that he understands the deeper concept of the tracking because then he can solve also other problems in the future because very often the seminars are so that uh in obedience it's different because in obedience the talks have different kind of problems you see so many things so you can think afterwards what is good for you and what is not but in tracking the problems are coming a little bit like this that you are not ready for this and then if you remember from the seminar and there was nothing soon for this moment you are a little bit alone I mean you you just need to think by yourself so think what I want to explain to the people I I want that the people understand the picture of the tracking wider because then they can find out the solution by themselves better so I always say to the people that uh if you can't participate with the dog, come without the dog and you always can walk with me and I always explain that you can see how the dog looks like now, how the dog is doing this right now. This is

because of this, this is because of that. So people are understanding the bigger picture. This is what I want to give. I don't want to give so much uh at the moment this tool because if the person with the dog using this tool next week then after next week he will be in totally different situation and then he don't have any tools he need to have the bigger picture so this is what I'm doing >> interesting >> I want that the person understands the concept you know I have been participating uh in uh there is a good uh psychologist who lived in America tale car who have been writing all books and things and so on. I have been his courses foundation of Dale Carneg uh has been doing some courses of psychology and I have been going there and so on and there was very good example that uh a man went to aquarium shop where were fishes and aquariums. He was looking in the shop and there was different size aquariums where were different size of fishes but all the fishes were the same free breed. >> And then this man said to the selling guy, you have put so much effort to organize in all aquarium different age of fishes. This is probably not easy. And the selling guy is saying no these fishes are all the same age but the fish if this fish has bigger aquarium he always rise bigger than the one who is in the smaller aquarium. This is about the fishes. So if I make the seminar, I always say to the people that I want to build your aquarium bigger that you understand the tracking not like a model but the big picture in the way that you can develop your dog better by yourself. This is the thing. This is like you ask about two things. I would say that I just give this one thing. I want that the person has wider picture about tracking because then he manage better by himself. Because one one example more I train a lot at the stress. I train in the training so that I want to do put the dog in the tracking training by purpose in the stress. And the idea of putting the dog in the stress is that I want to train the dog how to come out from the stress. And I want to train the dog that if the dog gets out of the stress then he feels better. And so the dog will be looking actively uh out of the stress. So if during the tracking the dog has some problems, he would learn how to move fast out of these problems. This is what I'm teaching. Yeah. And uh very often if I make seminar uh people asking from me uh show how you train the stress parts >> right >> but the stress part is never about just making this model over there but this is about what you should do in certain moments and how you should use the leash in the certain moments and then if you

make all these things then this thing has an idea just putting the stress it doesn't have much idea. So that's the thing if you come to the seminar and you don't have the talk and you walk with me I'm explaining the same thing to the talk handler and also to the audience and they will get better picture about the stress why I do these stress things. >> Yeah. Yeah. I I'm glad that you kind of covered a little bit about the stress even even this probably will not be as clear as there is just no way to be uh during a conversation but I I mean I've had the I'm fortunate that you have been helping me and talking about this like oneon one so I I get it and so people that are listening to what you're talking right now and may not understand. Don't freak out cuz it's not that easy to understand. However, >> I has a a really good uh uh breakdown on his website. As I said, we're going to have it on the links and stuff. And if he ever does a seminar and you're able to go and see it, highly recommend it. >> One more thing that I would like to add. >> Yes, absolutely. uh the thing what you just told now about stress that people don't understand it. Uh you know funny thing I have in my Facebook page uh one short video uh what I did with one Malinoa in my training >> I uploaded it about month ago and now as FMVB I had a lot of new friend requests coming I I repeat it so I uploaded it again. >> Mhm. And this video with this drawing is all about distressing >> and it has so much inside. And I kind of expected that there will be discussion because I thought that people don't understand exactly what I meant and I could explain and they could learn but there was no discussion. So basically I understood that people don't understand the idea otherwise they would ask and they would discuss and that describes so well how much it's difficult for the people to understand if you are not inside. >> Yes. >> Because otherwise you would ask I would explain all the seconds in this video. Now this is doing this now this is doing this. That's why this that's why that but people are looking this and they just need see the stress and not stress and that's it but there is so many components but as they don't see this >> right >> they are not able to start even the conversation and I was a little bit like wow how it's possible I mean people want to have discussing about articles and people want to make discussion about starts or whatever what are so simple and easy things but this is so much more like something what will give so much more but there is no discussion but there is no discussion because people don't understand the core problem they

are they just see the video and that's it and that's why I would say that this is the thing what I always want to explain in the seminars that the people could start to see the tracking wider >> yes looking at the foundation and the problem solving from a Different perspective is what what it is. >> Exactly. Yeah. >> I would thank you so much man. This was perfect conversation. I am sure this conversation is not for everybody. This is tracking one onone. But the people that like tracking I'm sure will be very happy to listen to this few times. So um thank you and and um >> thank you. Thank you for invitation and thank you for very nice conversation. I really hope that it gives some ideas to people who want to go to track. >> Right. That's why we do it. I mean that's why we do it. All right. >> Thank you. >> Next time we're going to talk about your photos too cuz you're amazing with this. >> Like I don't know how long you hunt the photos but they are amazing. I mean, every time you post something, I'm like on the page watching. It's pretty cool. I guess you have very nice nature around. >> Yeah. You know, this uh nature nature photography. Yeah. It's for me also a little bit the thing >> that uh when I look the bears in the nature out there acting and so on, I always look for the details. And it's a little bit like so that as I charge and train dogs, it gives me uh the skills to read the details and then I read these details in bears and I see interesting things and then I come back to the dogs. I mean it's a little bit like vice versa the being at the nature looking the wild animals it's giving so much back what is helping me also with the dogs. So it's a little bit like like so it's a little bit like connected in the way. >> Yeah. did. I mean, it's it's amazing how it must be addictive when you when you're good at it and when you have the opportunities to go out and and hunt things down. And >> I was just uh uh I came back from FMBB in uh Monday evening. >> Yeah. And you had a picture with bunch of bears already. >> Yeah. I thought that weekend would be a little bit resting but there were certain photographers who wanted to have a workshop with me uh taking photos of bears. So we went uh Saturday evening to the forest and we spent whole night in the forest photo shooting pairs. >> How far is it? How far from from your home you have to go? >> It's about 2 hours drive. >> Oh wow. So, uh, I just was sleeping like three hours because whole night we were just looking for bears and so on. So, so I hope that I can sleep now next weekend. >> You got to do Florida sometime. We have, we have crazy animals around here, too.

>> Yeah, would be fun, you know. >> All right, my friend. Take care. >> Thank you. Very good one. >> Bye.