에피소드 10 - 강화와 처벌

positive reinforcement quadrant to the negative reinforcement and going and keeping it balanced so that you keep the motivation at the highest level and if it if it comes down because of too much pressure or because of frustration or something you know you can bring it back with your postive reinforcement now the one thing though with postive reinforcement is create that very I mean that like I don't want to say like the dopamine dog but although you are but the the the dog that is is not really concentrating on what it's doing you know the kind of crazy like all he can think of is that reward they're they're they're uh consumed with the finish line and not with a journey to the Finish Line yeah and and I think that's where the like what we talked about before the balance comes in where you can't just have a positive only a reinforcement only dog I mean there are dogs that you'll be fine with but there's some dogs that it just gets it's too much right you have to add a little bit of the pressure to bring in the concentration you know and then show them like hey you have to wait in order to get this you have to calm down you have to relax into the behaviors that are going to get you the reward you want right yeah and I think that's where you see you see it a lot if you watch the like the especially the popon training where the dog is just out of its mind right for the for that reward and it does even in the you put it in a down and it's just like it's shaking it's it can't control itself you know and I think there's a difference between controlling it controlling that motivation with some pressure or like kind of capping it you know and and just to be clear when I say capping I mean it's like you're barely controlling it you're like you're barely holding onto the dog you know whereas you could technically say you're capping the other way too but the what I've noticed is that the dog that you've added pressure to from the beginning is more controlled and it still explodes into the you know or out of that behavior to the next one with as much power but it's it's not that like what I would call like a drug addict like like looking for its next you know fix kind of thing yeah does that make sense I think yes I follow um I I wonder if maybe we take a step back and just um talk about the definition of the quadrant so positive reinforcement there are some there's a actually it's not some there's a lot of misunderstandings about that quadrant even though it's it's got to be the most popular quadrants in today's approach to training a dog it's it's hands down the most popular quadrant right treat training reinforcement training toy

training play training whatever you use you know premac or whatever you're using positive reinforcement you're using something to reinforce a bridge right yeah and and so a lot of people when they when they understand the quadrant again not that bf Skinner invented it he just put the labels on it he observed the phenomenon and he labeled it so he didn't create it obviously which a lot of people say like oh well be be quiet um and so those Petty uh criticisms aside a lot of people will read the quadrant and they'll see we use R for reinforcement the two reinforcement quadrants right but they interchangeably use reinforcement and reward but reward is not synonymous with reinforcement and vice versa right you you can reward something without something being reinforced and that's a concept that a lot of people are going to hear and it they might disagree with but scientifically it's absolutely true now people say oh well reinforcement is the same thing as reward it's not because you're looking at the act of giving something versus the consequence increasing in strength yes make sense yeah reinforcement is where you you make something stronger you reinforce the behavior right yep where the reward is that the thing that you give it was something that was given if yeah if if if you end up net positive that's reward right and just because you end up like say the dog gets three treats or the dog gets to chase the Frisbee three times right that may or may not be reinforcing to a behavior that preceded that event it it could in some s situations it very well could but it does it's not mutually exclusive it does not always mean anytime a reward is present that a behavior gets strengthened you have to look at the behavior before you know whether the reward was reinforcing or not yeah and now one example of that is if your dog does a fast down okay and it was expecting the ball and say the ball is like the highest re re uh reward you can give right if it's expecting the ball and it did a very fast down it expects the ball and you give it one piece of kibble you did not reinforce that behavior because it didn't get what it expected right it's it's just like if you do a job where I have given you $100 for that job every time I've asked you to do it okay so every time you're like oh I'm gonna get 100 bucks you do your best job I'm gonna get 100 bucks you do your best job and it's true and then one day you do even better you're like hey let me see if I do better if I can get more than a 100 and you do better than every other time and I give you $1 and you're G be like oh well maybe I shouldn't do my best because when I did my best I got a

dollar right maybe I should do what I was doing before to get that 100 and we can use that uh and B taught teaches that too is um the one example is send your dog to like a marker board right or to a place send your dog to a place give him a jackpot send your dog to a place give him a jackpot send your dog to a place give him a jackpot now say your dog is going to the place but it's slow you click on the way there and the dog expects his jackpot instead of giving the jackpot you give one piece of kibble and then he's like man that effort I didn't pay me what I thought right so he's like next time he will speed up because like I need to get to the place in order to get my jackpot and he goes I want to go fast because I don't want to give you time to click and give me that one piece of kibble right so the kibble was a reward exactly but it was demotivating for that particular Behavior yes and that's the difference is so it was not reinforcing yeah not reinforcing exactly and that's what that's what I was trying to say is that some people think just the act of giving something as a reward should strengthen the behavior you can't you there's no way for you to know that without observing the consequence of what happens to the behavior does the behavior go up or does it go down you have to take in there has to be there's a requirement for more observation you need more information before that can happen right and I think you and the way to manipulate that now yes if there's no expectation by the dog or the person whatever it is right let's just say dog if there's no expectation for the dog for that particular behavior on a certain reward be it amount or type now I would say yes that would be rewarding sure but that's how you manipulate is you create the expectation and once the expectation is there now you can change what you give in order to make it less rewarding say or more rewarding maybe right and that's how if you go to like service dog training if you want pet dogs maybe that's what you want is you want the motivation to be low so the expectation you will keep always as one piece of kibble exactly and the dog will keep its motivation low because it's like oh I'm just getting one piece of kibble of course you get those dogs that doesn't matter what you give they're just crazy right but for the most part they will equate what they're doing with what they get right right and this is why and getting really now getting to the point that I was trying to make with being able to distinguish reinforcement is not reward and vice versa is because if you read the quadrant as so everyone says plus r or R plus and R negative is uh

add a reward remove a reward that's false absolutely false because our positive is positive reinforcement it means the the behavior was reinforced and it was strengthened in its nature it was increased in frequency it increased in uh uh contingent or or strength of of quality of behavior and then negative reinforcement which is the correct way to read that quadrant R negative negative reinforcement means that something was discontinued in order to reinforce that specific behavior that preceded the the removal of that stimulus that's the thing too go ahead oh just let me finish yeah so the but commonly people because they use reinforcement and reward synonymously they say reward with positive and they say take away reward is our negative and they've I've seen that time and time again on social media YouTube it's out there everywhere even people in private lessons and coaching and businesses they're teaching that they're teaching that oh hey we're if you take something and withhold it from your dog or you're negatively rewarding this dog right that you're still in the you're still in the r negative quadrant you're not that's a negative punishment correct that's the opposite of positive reinforcement when positive reinforcement you give the reward yep negative punishment you withhold the reward right exactly and if you can't you go go ahead oh I was just going to say and if the if the thing that you're giving is not a Punisher like if you take if what you're giving for reward when you take it away if that is not caused to punish the or if it does not create a sense of fomo or punishment in the dog it's not a good reinforcer correct the dog didn't want it in the first place so exactly you take it away it doesn't care like that's I didn't want it so I don't care if you take it away yep yeah it's like eating out of boredom you know you're not eating because you need it you're eating because there's nothing left to do because you're a fat [Laughter] bastard you heard it I don't know I I I can't pass a um Cinnabon without ordering one though hey but but you're not eating it because it's just there you're eating it's reinforcing to you correct that's my reward so if you bought the so so if you bought the if you bought the cinnabun and someone came and ripped it out of your hands and ran away that would be extremely punishing I can tell you why um uh it took me a long time to drink Stella beer again because I was at uh a place and I had it was on draft and I ordered it and it was so bitter it was the worst taste beer I've ever had it's like I remember the commercial like I think it was Keystone where they had the bitter beer

face they had a commercial with bitter beer face like literally it so it was so bad tasting that it took me a long time to drink Stella again right and it's because a lot of the belgians for saying that well hey it was it wasn't the beer I think it was the the bar what they did whatever they had maybe it was old or something I know I know a few people from Belgium that'll take Umbridge with that but I do drink it now though yeah it's funny that's a so so this is this is good and that leads us to kind of this next conversation is like before we can even talk about the quadrant we need to talk about the definitions right and or or not just talking about the quadrant before we talk about the uses and the Strategic ways to arrive at certain Aesthetics through and tactically how to do certain techniques if we're just if we're settling for our definition of our positive as just the act of giving something away to the dog right without looking at what it does to the quality of the behavior or the frequency we're g to have a very weak Foundation to to build on with that dog in training and it'll it'll probably take us longer to arrive at results I mean positive reinforcement training takes long in the first place when you have a strong motivator right because of the repetitions that are required to gain fluency and and acquisition but if you bring into if you bring into play a weaker motivator or a weaker reinforcing addition yeah you even you distance yourself further from your from your outcome and the timeline it takes to get there yes and that's that's why you have to be like really dialed in with your dog and know what they find reinforcing yeah right what do they want um be it from food to toys to play to maybe pressure maybe you know kind of pushing him around a little bit the fight right and then looking and don't just say okay he's sad I give him a ball he's sad I give him a ball don't just look at it as giving him something as a reward like you said is that thing reinforcing the behavior yes is the behavior doing the thing you want it to do is it moving in the direction of strength or weakness weakness be meaning it's getting punished or moving towards Extinction acquisition and reinforcement in the other direction yeah and that's why I think your repetitions also matter in in when you're training especially uh in the beginning because if you go too long you can start you know you can get to the point where you're kind of demotivating the dog even though they like what you're giving them yeah you know or if you just stay on one thing for too long you keep it exciting and then that's the power of the like a one

rep with a jackpot right where you just come out and surprise them you just ask for one reped boom we're not doing it anymore that's it here you go and whatever that jackpot is being food or you know play or whatever it is right where that dog is like wow that was awesome you know and then you know you had a good rep with high motivation and that sticks in the dog's mind you know so let's talk about because I want to get to I want to hear what you would say uh like if you were to summarize what positive reinforcement is doing to a dog um in training when we use positive reinforcement um because I have I have in my mind like a a synopsis or a summarized observation about the premise of positive reinforcement but before we get to that question um what are things that matter in the use of good positive reinforcement once we have arrived at a reinforcer that is valuable has value in the dog's eyes so now let's let's take out the the the crappy motivators and Let's find let's talk about when you have something that's really motivating to a dog what are the benefits that come the pros and the cons of positive reinforcement in dog training the pros and the cons the pros as in well one is the dog will the dog is doing a behavior in order to get that reward whatever it is right so that's the only that's why they're doing it and if it's something they really want they will try to figure out how to get it right and they will do their best to try to get it and it and especially that's where like manipulating it um you can manipulate how good or how well the dog does something right so they will try harder each time that if they know you know sprinting to you when you call them will get them that reward they will you know if if you can manipulate the reward they will Sprint faster next time right up to their limit and you can manipulate that and get it um the one con is that the dog is only doing a behavior to get that reward and then so that's where you have to make sure that in the environment you're in that the dog actually wants what you have right because if they don't that's where they don't do the behavior you know and that happens to uh where we call like what we call engagement right where they say your dog is not engaging with you in a different in that in this environment where there's competing motivators you know because he actually doesn't want what you have as much as you thought right so that's the only the the with the POs of reinforcement uh oh the other con is that if you're only using postive reinforcement that if the dog doesn't do something there's no way to make them do it right then right you can't they don't want

what you have so you can't get them to do that in the moment right right you can like you said use negative punishment but now you have to wait until that dog wants that again but the the the Dilemma you face is if your dog no longer wants what you have you can't take it away as a form of punishment correct but at some point he did want what you had right right so there must be somewhere in there that he wants it right which is why timing you have to make sure your timing is good right you can't just like try to coax him and bribe him and then after a while once he loses that that flame that flame burns out of desire for for working or you know playing or chasing the food I think where where people mess up is that say you go to a new field and you offer your dog the ball and he doesn't want it right but he does like the ball he does want the ball if you go home and later on or the next day you play ball with your dog again now in that moment you thought you were using negative punishment you took the ball away the day before but now if you give it to him now you lost that right because he got it he just he didn't have to pay attention to you in this new place yes so so if you if you use that you have to go back the next day before the only place he can play with that ball again is that same spot and if he doesn't you have you can't give it to him again and then you have to go back the next time until he goes okay I really want the ball now because it's been three days I thought I was going to get to play at home for example but I haven't and now it's offered to me again I'm gonna take the opportunity to play so just I want to summarize what you just said because I want to make sure that people follow that train of thought because so what he's saying what Mike just said that's super important that I really liked is that when you're on a field you're on the training field dog's not doing something you want you take the opportunity a way to play with the ball maybe it's a ball on string a tug a frisbee whatever it is okay and you go back home after ending that session training is over he lost it it was a negative punishment opportunity if that opportunity for that same reward that you took away as punishment is if it's brought about somewhere else and the dog has an opportunity to play with that somewhere else the dog has just learned that he can be disobedient to you he'll just get it somewhere else right he just he's just being patient right but so the so like you said the the key component of using correct negative punishment with with a toy in that situation is go he doesn't get the toy until he goes

back to that same spot and chooses to engage and interact and work for that reward and then you reward him and boom now you have your magic yes that's it correct but that's why like in nap pole we have a versive right per versive stem um which is uh adding something to stop a single Behavior you know uh but that's why negative punishment is not truly aversive it's because the dog is deciding on a behavior and then later if you show them hey if you don't decide on the correct Behavior you're going to lose what you want when you come back next time it's not that it was a versive he's like now he's thinking well what Behavior do I have to do to get this the reward that I want say the ball in this case right in this instance so they're just making a different Choice they're learning what choices or what behaviors work in that environment to get what they want again it goes back to the dog getting what it it wants right so and it's not that's the thing it's just choosing different behaviors rather than avoiding a a single Behavior you know that's that's the difficult thing when you when you rely on only positive reinforcement style training the only option you have when your dog's not doing something you want it to do is to discontinue the opportunity to earn that reinforcement which is essentially it's a play in the negative punishment quadrant right you've taken away that opportunity you you discontinue the training um or or whatever it is um the benefits to that though are uh because it's not you're not forcing a decision on the dog immediately there are the one upside to that is that there are no scars that are resulting from that that use of feedback to the dog right it takes time that's the downside to it is it it it requires the time to pass before the dog determines that that was a bad decision right he's like gee I I I went two days I I missed the ball bit the owner's hand a little bit too hard the toy went away for a week because I did that maybe not out of punishment but maybe just because the owner couldn't throw the ball anymore so he had to wait till his hand healed and then the dog will learn real quickly wow gee a week without my ball for biting the hand is not a good idea I'm not going to bite the hand I'm going to be a lot more careful and tiptoe around the string and make sure I actually grab the ball right but it but the the the negative punishment quadrant requires that time lapse to settle in with the dog before the realization is like oh I made a I made a I made a bad decision cor versus the immediacy of positive punishment that tells them that was a bad choice immediately mhm but you why also yeah go

ahead that's why in na po we have the double Punisher also right you can add the positive punishment to that behavior and negative punishment as a a double so you can actually show them like not only do you need to make a different choice but if you make that other choice again it is going to be a vers it for you it's the mother of all punishments right you you positively punish it and then you take the opportunity away and then they really have to think about it the mother of all punishment yep nice so um I mean I I mean before we talk about different negative punishments and stuff but it's like you said it just comes down to uh negative punishment comes down to time and the dog understanding that it lost the opportunity for that reward there's there's this common um there's a there's a pretty an emerging movement within the balanced dog training Community they call it Lima right if you've listened to any of the the modern dog training podcasts you're Pro you've probably heard it mentioned um referenc Lima uh it it's an acronym it stands for least invasive minimally aversive method or approach to using punishment tools to train a dog and I I'd like to ask your thoughts about it um so why don't you kind of kick off what what are your thoughts about that and and when do you feel like that that approach is um has a place because I mean I think it does have a place and I think it's great that people have identified that as a method of training but I I think people there are some things that people need to be aware of with that method as well that probably make for a good conversation well two things right first is that the definition of aversive right because aversive is something that the the dog would really want to avoid right right that it's it's super unpleasant so can you be is it is it is it a misnomer can you actually be minimally aversive well that's I no that's the point is if it's aversive it's aversive you can't be minimally aversive right right it's like it's like saying I shot him just a little he's just a little dead I didn't kill I just I just shot him with like a a BB but he's still dead he's just a little dead that's you go to Monty Python right it's a flesh wound but that's the point if if if it's aversive the dog will want to avoid it so if they're saying minimally aversive is like they're not going to use and that's the problem they use aversive on a spectrum right whereas for us in nap Cole aversive is not on a spectrum it's negative reinforcement kind of thing SL that's why we say like correction SLP punishment and then aversive which is highly unpleasant which is used to stop

behavior um but the the thing the other thing is that with when you think that it's like you're trying to just you're trying to tow the line of just enough you know the problem is you don't know what just enough is for this particular dog in front of you right especially if it's not your dog and you're a trainer and you're training the dog for somebody else you don't know the dog you know maybe your dog you do know but still even with your dog they go in and out of motivation like my like Khan my duy this morning he he doesn't he wants if you're going in the house he wants to be in the house before you get in there so Tara was walking she had the sliding glass door and it's a heavy one it's like I mean it's a it's original doors were like metal not you know aluminum kind of thing like a very he heavy door and he tried to squeeze in between her leg and the door and actually knocked the door the sliding glass door off the rail with his shoulder oh wow okay and like really that's it's a verive right if you think about it the amount of pressure that was used and he he like he hit himself hard you heard the bang but he's going to do it again tomorrow so obviously that was not a vers to him because if it was he would avoid that next time you know but he didn't feel it like we thought he should have felt it you know it wasn't pain and that's the thing if you're trying to just barely get enough what is enough for that dog you know to get him to change his behavior you don't know so when you're doing least invasive minim minimally aversive it's like I think a lot of times you are going to be falling short and and you're going to be stopping that pressure at the wrong time and the it's not going to cause a change of behavior and you'll actually end up reinforcing the wrong Behavior because the pressure stopped okay while the wrong behavior is happening right because you're going into negative reinforcement there so um and that's the thing it's like don't think of what's the minimum amount I can use you have to think of what's the appropriate amount you know this makes me this just made me laugh I was just thinking as you're talking Lima is like it's it's an anthropomorphic acronym because we're projecting the emotion that we want to be perceived as being as gentle as possible to deliver something that really is designed to create a scar right because scars like if you touch a hot stove you're gonna get burned you'll probably have a scar right you'll you'll lose your fingerprint or something like that right um we're banking on the fact that that aversive event is going to prevent them from doing something dangerous to thems or to something in

their environment in the future that's what we're banking on right but least invasive minimally aversive it's like it's like using the analogy like hey I'm going to neuter my dog to fix his to fix his uh nuisance barking at my neighbor's dog well I I desexed my dog but it's okay because I I gave him anesthesia while I was doing it so it was the least invasive minimally aversive experience to the dog to try to do it but you know it's like maybe that's a bad analogy but like it just made me laugh because you know when people say that they're going to desex a dog to to fix Behavior that's what they're really doing is like and that's they justify the the surgical invasion of a dog's Anatomy they justify it because oh well the dog doesn't feel anything we use we use uh Humane anesthesia we we give them cones and we give them lots of treats and they're on blanket it's like no it's still absolutely almost aboring to be able to to do that for for a behavioral fix that should otherwise be fixed with training and yeah so it just makes me laugh and um but it it gets um not only that but what I get it it gets to the training part of it okay I think what it does and I could be wrong right I don't know but it gets people will try to turn like if they're using pressure for example okay they will try to turn off the pressure as soon as the behavior happens but the problem is the pressure has to stay past the behavior right the dog has to have done the behavior and then the pressure stop you can't try to time it for example say when the the the same example everybody uses a Sit you cannot time the pressure stopping with the but touching the ground you have to time it with after the butt touches ground so that the behavior turns off the pressure right when you do it the other way which is what people that are uh in my opinion that are thinking of Lima they're like I don't want the pressure to stay on longer than is necessary so they're trying to time it exactly and you cannot you can't time it exactly and then you become not clear to the dog right their communication breaks down because you're not noticing when the dog's butt hits the ground if they're hovering if they're down if they're fully committed right if they just Bas barely touched it and then you add the reinforcer in there right the I mean the reward and if you mess with the reward did you reward the dog's butt hovering did you reward it 100% down right was the dog down and started coming up and rewarded uh that's where you get all that the jumpiness in the behaviors yeah so the pressure yes it it it can be aversive but most of the time you'll know right

away if it's aversive and that's why you can't have that spectrum of aversive it's aversive or it's not yeah it's it's on or off it's black or right it can't be minimally again it's using this the analogy you can't be a little bit dead you have to be you're dead or you're not right yeah and then that's the thing if you're trying to make Behavior happen with pressure then you're using negative reinforcement right if you're trying to stop Behavior you're using an adversity yeah and so back to my question to you is like uh like for me I and maybe tell me if you agree or you think of it differently but for me when I think about positive or or just for reinforcement or punishment all we're doing is we're manipulating the dog's anticipation one way or another in a different direction we're anticipating we're creating anticipation that something good is going to happen as a result of a certain Behavior or something bad is about to happen as a result of a certain Behavior it's nothing more or less than that right yes yeah the anticipation like you anti and then you're which leads to expectation mhm of something but remember the strength comes from by not giving the reward yep right and you're still reinforcing it even though you do don't give the reward but later like if we remember the dopamine jackpot you know when did the the biggest happened start the biggest Spike started happening after the reward became maybe yes you know and that's the other thing if with positive re enforcement you cannot keep on a 100% you know reinforcement schedule you have to move to the maybe maybe you will get it maybe you won't right you know and that's the hard that's the trickiest thing for most pet owners right is going from the the reward one1 to one reward to one to the the intermittent reward yes and that's why um getting away from the word reward reinforcement that's why you should also your negative reinforcement should be a maybe also right maybe it'll be on this time maybe it won't you know and and that along with the maybe you'll get the reward maybe you won't that that's what really strengthens the behaviors it's the maybe can I beat this pressure or can I will I get the reward or won't I exactly perfect so to recap because we've kind of been like oh talking a lot of things I have something I have something okay sure go ahead the other thing with Lima is if you're trying to stop Behavior right and for us we're going to use an aversity that again if you're subscribing to the Lima you're going to try to use the minimum amount necessar to stop that behavior but again I we kind of mentioned before if you don't use enough you're not going to

stop that behavior and so you have to go past what you think if you think it's a six out of ten to stop the digging in the yard you cannot use six out of 10 even if you think that's the correct one you got to use like an eight out of 10 nine out of 10 because you want to make sure that what you did is aversive for that behavior yes and remember every Behavior has a different level of verive to it and because because if you don't go into known aversive territory or perceived aversive territory for the dog if you don't go there then you're only negatively reinforcing that behavior you're making it stronger because they're learning to endure moderately high level or moderate levels of pressure to accomplish their designs or their goals and behavior that we don't want them to do so that's why least invasive minim minimally aversive by by the standard practitioner the typical pet owner is probably just a formula for negatively reinforcing something they don't want their dog to do yep and um you see that when people people when people get like a electronic collar and don't get any training like pet people especially and they put it on their dog and they let their dog off leash and the collar is from whatever one to 100 and they go oh 30 should be good right they let their dog out and the dog takes off running they call the dog and the dog goes I'm not coming right you don't have a leash on me and they stem at that level whatever it is 30 40 and the dog speeds up still continuing to run away from them and then what do they do is they let go of the button and they go oh that didn't work but it it actually did work it just didn't work with what you thought right in that case you just taught the dog when I feel stem I speed up and run faster away from you yeah you know whereas I mean if uh if you had gone higher for the most part most dogs will just stop if it's very if it is aversive right most dogs will stop in that case because it it is to the point where it stops everything but then we get into the the Naple uses of the e-collar you know we're getting into like cutting Drive instead of um right the other uses but but that's the thing right in that case the person thought it was an aversive and it didn't become an aversive it became negative reinforcement for that one Behavior running away from you right and I mean I think the the method and the movement behind Lima I think I think it obviously like I said in the beginning I think it's an anthropomorphic view on training to to create something that is palatable by people who aren't comfortable with the balance Community or the use of tools or the use of pressure I think it

was I think it was conceived for those people so that they can digest that there might be a possible way to use pressure that accomplishes good training results without the scars that they have from their observations of abusive trainers using tools unfairly inhumanely on the spectrum that we don't support right because there is a crowd of people that use tools that way that we don't support so I think Lima again was conceived to to be kind of that that standard Bearer to to carry the torch for those people but what it really has become is a trojan horse for the force free the anti- tool the animal rights camps to then like adopt it because I think as we go more and more because I've I've been around a lot lot of conversations and you see people throwing out Lima left and right and you even see some of the for3 people saying well Lima's okay and they start saying but you have to use Lima this way and you can't use that type of tool in Lima and now now it's not even Lima as it was conceived it's Lima as it's been translated by the for stre Community yeah and the and it also I think it stops people from using pressure adding pressure in the beginning of training it does absolutely right and they become like poon trainers because they only add it later is they don't use the power of like negative reinforcement Absolut they just go into I'm G to train with positive and then I'll stop Behavior with pressure that's 100% right absolutely yeah and like you said it's it's more of a trying to make it seem like um I'm not a bad guy you know I'm using pressure but I'm using it just bar just barely enough to get what I want I'm just gonna kill my dog a little bit he'll come back to life in five seconds but I'm gonna kill him a little bit right you know yeah that's why it's not a good term if you get shot with a 22 and you die and your heart stops you're still dead whether you got hit with a 22 caliber pistol or a or like a freaking Cannonball right like it doesn't matter you're you're dead you know that's true Min minimum the aers it was he was under he was under anesthesia but we still desexed him and you know like invasively removed his organs you know like what what what could what could go wrong right of course his behavior is going to be better now right like give me a break so yeah but and that's the thing right if it's a verive or it isn't it's not 1% aversive 5% aversive 10% aversive and again and aversive is we want the scar we want the memory of the bad experience because that's what informs the dog's future Behavior without that memory behavior in the future is not avoided that we find undesirable right it's it's that memory

it's that association with gee touching that fence was electric I didn't like that I'm not going near that fence again and I have respect for the fence right um you know uh it's like people that have a hard time with like it's like respect begins with a little bit of fear you know know like there there's there's some sort of like magnitude of discrepancy between two sources of power one's one's here and one's up up above it that's what that's what forms respect like that little bit of fear right but but fear is such a such a horrible word to people nowadays right if you were to say it this way my dog is afraid of running out into the street or my dog is afraid of getting hit by a car that's a good thing I want my dog to be afraid of getting hit by a car because it's going to keep my beloved companion alive if he's afraid of getting hit by a car he's not going to be out there running chasing cars and trying to bite the tires or the wheels that's a good fear that's a that's a very good fear to have that's a fear that every every pet owner should probably want their dog to have but yet when they hear the word fear it it's it's such a Negative connotation right yeah but and that's it's um it's using what you need to get the the outcome that you want right so if you if you have to make your dog fearful of running out of the house because there's a busy street there right but then do that because you're going to keep dog alive and if you can do it the way Nao does it which is gets the behavior you want while the dog looks good doing it then we've arrived at a really cool method of training your dog right so if you can have your dog respectful AKA fearful of getting hit by a car and he's willing to recall back to you really quickly when you see the Amazon truck flying down your neighborhood you know at 40 m an hour and he recalls really quickly cuz he's got you know that motivation that respect it's a good system it's a good it's a good method for training yeah exactly why why here's here's the question I have is like you take two dogs okay and we always seem to go back to we Circle back to this this conversation in all of our in all of our uh uh conversations but if you you take two dogs one that's been trained um let's say uh one that's been trained with positive reinforcement only right maybe praise lots of Praise lots of RW Rah verbal praise and things like that and let's say that that dog gets really nice healing okay let's take another dog who maybe they use some positive reinforcement but they also use some negative reinforcement and then the occasional punishment when the dog doesn't want to

look and and looks away right but that dog also looks equally good so let's say you have two dogs that look just as good in their healing does it matter what road they took to get there yeah if you look if you see the dog and they're both happy in doing the behaviors and they're doing them consistently you know in any environment and then you really can't tell how they were trained then what's the difference because just how you feel or the difference is how you feel right and that's the thing I'm trying to that's the thing I'm trying to point out is that like you know the FCI World Championships just happened and in igp the sport of igp at least the the points that are being given or taken away in The Obedience section are no longer technicalities they're they're not technique based Point deductions they are emotional Point deductions like when you told the dog to down or stand out of from from a run you know in while you're in motion with the dog and you tell your dog to plot or you tell your dog to stand or sit did the did the dog's ears flop down and flop up or show some stress or did did the dog's tail kind of Tuck a little bit or drip or drop a little bit right those are the point deductions that are happening they're all the all the behaviors are Tech technically very correct right they're precise Precision behaviors they're sniper they sniper type behaviors the point the points are being deducted are emotion-based points right so all the dogs are technically correct but not all the dogs are trained with raw RW like some are there's some that are on the podium that are only raw raw trained dogs right but there's some that are that are that are very fluent with the use of pressure consequence and even at a even at a high the ultimate level like the world championship level there's a disparity of points but maybe like you know maybe three points out of 300 points that are showing the difference between the two dogs yeah you know but and the thing is that most of the dogs have been trained with pressure sure right whether they say it or not or ad acknowledge and admit it is more but I think the difference is this the because we're going away from Lima a little bit but kind of not the positive only positive reinforcement only trained dogs remember they are they are choosing a different Behavior right because the only way to correct that is negative punishment so they are choosing the correct Behavior to get what they want right so later those other choices are still there in the background they're just not as strong but when you add corre pressure correctly you are removing those other

choices right and you're telling the dog no this is the only choice you can make you know which I believe is better when it comes down to it because now they're not thinking about what other behavior Can I do they're thinking about like this is the only behavior and I can I have to avoid the other behaviors right I think that's the big difference super interesting but it was what spurred what spurred this for me is like i' had just seen in some uh online forums and chat groups that you know some people who are claiming to be Force free purely positive were throwing around Lima like it was something they were adopting and I'm like what they were describing Lima as was like like that's a really like you know that's a bastardized form of Lima you know in in in the beginning and yeah really really interesting to see to see some of the that's because they would think interpretations on it well to them I think their negative punishment would be aversive they would look at it as aversive which it's not right so I think that covers it I I I mean I really think we do into positive reinforcement you know the reasons to to to use it the the benefits the the Aesthetics The Flash the you know the the political correctness of of it and and the ability to avoid you know scars the problems with it come from the requirement of time to arrive at a acquired behavior through positive reinforcement um the time it takes to make negative punishment effective on a dog because there's it doesn't have a directional component like you said negative punishment does not say don't do this do something else it says do this or don't do this and then it leaves it open-ended as to what the dog might be able to do elsewhere and then they have to go through the learning process again so it's a non-directional form of punishment it doesn't guide the dog to a better Behavior it just says don't do this but they it takes them like months weeks to to learn that um but it does so in favor of avoiding the risk of potential scarring on the dog if you don't know how to use positive punishment correctly right yep exactly um so everybody should train with nap po so yeah summarize this train with na Po and you won't have that problem go to Silver School see us for gold exactly and uh continue toist like share and subscribe the podcast the full quadrant podcast which by the way we are also now available on Apple podcast for your listening pleasure that's right so that's a big announcement long time coming yeah yeah it was good I haven't even I haven't gone on there yet to see but uh yeah I'm G have to go go on there and uh play some episodes yes do it rate US

with five stars do it under the knowledge that this is a completely self-produced production this is something that we're just putting out there we understand this is like a lowbudget operation and uh it's more about the content than it is about the Cinematic experience however hopefully to our listeners they're listening for the for the benefit of the quality of the content not the quality of the uh the Aesthetics and the the production we do our best to provide what we can in a quality manner but again you we're you know the Joe Rogan podcast is gonna just we're not even in the same universe you know like it's a completely different experience he has a he has a dedicated building for his podcast he's got doctors that attend to you before you go into his podcasting room because most Yeah well yeah because most of the people there are like you know they're getting high they're on weed mushrooms micro microing right so they have on call nurses and doctors Physicians so it's like you know definitely a completely different Universe of a of a program not not that I have anything against it but like we're just not not that quality at all so um we would appreciate all your five stars all of your likes all of your shares all of your comments all of your feedback your engagement um it it really does help us out and um it it just fuels our enjoyment of being able to record these conversations and share them with you so yeah yeah if you uh if you like these or if you think anybody else um would enjoy them too just you know share them yeah share them to everybody so anyway especially if you disagree yes haters are fine send them our way we'll respectfully chat with them and hear them out cool so all right well hey super super conversation Mike really enjoyed it really looking forward to seeing you this week uh we're gonna have a great uh week of training and some really good good times so yeah awesome yeah we will uh I'll see you soon and then I look forward to recording the next one yes yep awesome okay all right man all right well hey that was a good one I talk to you later yeah we'll talk to you later see you Mike peace